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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 5 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2400<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: alien cops<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
RE: WARNING<BR>
Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
RE: WARNING<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
RE: WARNING<BR>
Campaign Lists<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
re: Faster and faster<BR>
Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
Pretty Ships...<BR>
Virus Redux<BR>
Root URL<BR>
Re: Pretty Ships...<BR>
RE: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans<BR>
re:  Tranq<BR>
RE: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: The Rubber Suit Problem<BR>
re: Tranq<BR>
Re: Space Rangers (was Re: OT: Farscape RPG?)<BR>
Re:  Tranq<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:18:15 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: alien cops<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/4/00 12:07:53 PM !!!First Boot!!!, TravelerGM@aol.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Who would we get for Internal Affairs?<BR>
 <BR>
 Rob<BR>
 <BR>
 The Zhodani, of course... >><BR>
<BR>
with newt administrators...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:22:28 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote :-<BR>
> Is there any reason why life could not evolve which can metabolize both<BR>
> stereoisomers?<BR>
No, not really. Based on our 'single data point', though, one isomer<BR>
becomes preferred. A lot of bacteria can utilise D-amino acids, but they<BR>
invert them to L-forms first as it's much cheaper energetically.<BR>
<BR>
> So if you have two different food sources based on the different<BR>
> stereoisomers, it would certainly be in your best interest to be able to<BR>
> metabolize both.<BR>
Stereospecificity is much more efficient (about 100X difference in<BR>
activation energy and reaction rate). I suspect that the only reason<BR>
the current arrangement exists is because a particular replicator was<BR>
faster at reproducing itself than all the others.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:35:47 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
At 10:01 AM 5/5/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This is one of those things that has had me confused for years. I didn't<BR>
>read the book for quite a while after seeing the movie and I read the comics<BR>
>well after the movie too. But I seem to remember Luke watching the space<BR>
>battle scene too and the stills show up in the trading cards. I DON'T<BR>
>remember Luke meeting up with Biggs in Anchorhead right after that though.<BR>
>That I remember from the comic book (which also had the Han meeting with<BR>
>Jabba outside the Falcon). Does this mean that the comic book guys had<BR>
>access to a different version of the movie, perhaps one that was shown to a<BR>
>test audience and edited down? Access to the screenplay, surely.<BR>
>I was kind of hoping both scenes would show up in the 20th anniversary<BR>
>version, but no such luck.<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK, the scene with  Biggs Darklighter was originally written into the <BR>
movie (along with a few others) that was cut in the final release.  The <BR>
movie originally started out with this scene, but Lucas decided he wanted <BR>
to start the movie with a "bang," so he cut it.  I don't know if the movie <BR>
was ever released to the theatres with it, but bootleg (or maybe even <BR>
official) copies of this scene have been floating around forever.  I <BR>
certainly hope he'll put _all_ of the cut scenes on the DVD (a la Aliens) <BR>
but this remains to be seen.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:38:19 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 10:07 AM 5/5/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>The funny thing about how it has affected where I work (which is on Windows)<BR>
>is that people who should have known better got burned. Makes me wonder if<BR>
>they thought that by using Netscape or Eudora they were invulnerable or if<BR>
>Outlook somehow launches the file when it does some other operations, like<BR>
>applying some rules to it.<BR>
<BR>
Rumor is that this latest (about Outlook) is true.  Since Outlook supports <BR>
so much scripting, it's possible that the message contains some sort of <BR>
code that launches the attachment if you just open the message (or maybe <BR>
even without it... Scary thought...)<BR>
<BR>
What entertains me is that 5 years ago, everyone knew that an email virus <BR>
like Good Times was impossible.  Now, thanks to Microsoft, yet another <BR>
fiction has become reality.  Ah, what will the future bring us next? :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:42:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
    In the Star Wars story book, we see photos of Luke Viewing the<BR>
Spacebattle, and his subsequent meeting with Biggs Darklighter. These are<BR>
also shown in trading cards and th Marvel comic books.<BR>
<BR>
Marvel Comics complained that LucasFilm Ltd. changed their minds almost day<BR>
to day on what could and could not be on the storyboards. This situation<BR>
persisted through Marvel's contract commitment to 20th. Century Fox and LFL.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Bill Dunn" <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
To: "'Traveller List'" <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 8:01 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> This is one of those things that has had me confused for years. I didn't<BR>
> read the book for quite a while after seeing the movie and I read the<BR>
comics<BR>
> well after the movie too. But I seem to remember Luke watching the space<BR>
> battle scene too and the stills show up in the trading cards. I DON'T<BR>
> remember Luke meeting up with Biggs in Anchorhead right after that though.<BR>
> That I remember from the comic book (which also had the Han meeting with<BR>
> Jabba outside the Falcon). Does this mean that the comic book guys had<BR>
> access to a different version of the movie, perhaps one that was shown to<BR>
a<BR>
> test audience and edited down? Access to the screenplay, surely.<BR>
> I was kind of hoping both scenes would show up in the 20th anniversary<BR>
> version, but no such luck.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:45:12 +1000<BR>
> From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> Subject: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
><BR>
> RE: Scene with Luke watching the space battle and talking to Biggs.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm pretty sure it was in the book. I find that images you create<BR>
> when<BR>
> reading a novel are often stronger than that of a movie - esp. if<BR>
> you were a<BR>
> teenager, so maybe that's it.<BR>
><BR>
> M<BR>
><BR>
> <Bond, we need you to go to the Bahamas and sleep with lots of<BR>
> women><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:14:01 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
Diespamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> Anybody know if the adventures, double adventures, etc. will be released in a <BR>
> similar format?<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeeeeeessssss  :-)<BR>
<BR>
I don't have the release dates inside my tiny mind, but someone else probably<BR>
has. The next book (Supplements IIRC) is due before the end of the year in any<BR>
case.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:10:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking as a consultant in the computer industry, former corporate<BR>
> IS manager and general IS geek; I have yet to see a corporate<BR>
> implementation of secure email.  Users won't use it.  Most can barely<BR>
> run email.  Power users run whatever email package they like, and use<BR>
> PGP for security.<BR>
<BR>
But they still can't use dual key pairs, and therefore can't do legally<BR>
binding electronic commerce over the Internet while having key backup<BR>
capability. That's where the money is, B2B electronic commerce, not in<BR>
securing routine e-mail. The business case for secure e-mail just to have<BR>
security is extremely weak.<BR>
<BR>
PGP will never fly for electronic commerce, mainly because the legal<BR>
infrastructure to support its use isn't there. On the other hand, with an<BR>
audited CP and CPS, you can do legally-binding, fully-auditable electronic<BR>
commerce using digital certificates.<BR>
<BR>
Fortunately, not that many people need to actually do B2B electronic<BR>
commerce, since, as you say, the average guy has a hard time with it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:16:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
The Supplements will be out this month and the Adventures by July 15th.<BR>
Double Adventures will be next, scheduled for September.  Marc will do the<BR>
whole series as long as sales stay good.  The first book has sold extremely<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Diespamer@aol.com><BR>
> Anybody know if the adventures, double adventures, etc. will be released<BR>
in a<BR>
> similar format?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:18:55 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: RE: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> What entertains me is that 5 years ago, everyone knew that an email virus <BR>
> like Good Times was impossible.  Now, thanks to Microsoft, yet another <BR>
> fiction has become reality.  Ah, what will the future bring us next? :)<BR>
<BR>
I assume that this is one of the first visible signs of the recent (four months<BR>
ago) increase in tech level. We ought to add this to the techlevel definitions:<BR>
<BR>
* E-mail viruses become possible<BR>
<BR>
And, thanks to TNE, we all know what happens later...<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:33:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
    Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
campaign url: http://home.nc.rr.com/lachance/Marshal.htm<BR>
In addition to 1-2 email turns per week we tend to meet/game online on<BR>
sundays.  If interested feel free to drop an email.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 07:49:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 22:31 -0400 4/5/00, Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>Another RPG mailing list (the Rolemaster mailing list) that I subscribe to had<BR>
>an e-mail virus appearing in it today. I am about 99% sure this is not a hoax.<BR>
<BR>
It's real - I know of at least one major UK company whose system was <BR>
taken down by it - I believe it requires a mail program which will <BR>
run Visual Basic. Fortunately our Firewall at work took it out.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:55:30 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
> mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
> However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
> Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
> resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
<BR>
    Try the SJG Gamer Finder board.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:08:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 -0400 5/5/00,  Diespamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>Long time no type. To be quite honest with you, while I still receive TML, I<BR>
>have not fooled around with Traveller in quite a long time and have not read<BR>
>the TML for nearly a year. (I've got to find a job with less hours!)<BR>
<BR>
Hi Fred, good to hear from you again.<BR>
<BR>
>A silly question: I was at a conference in mid-town NYC this week and stopped<BR>
>in at the Compleat Strategist to pick up a copy of SJG's "Starports". While I<BR>
>was there, I also snagged (despite the fact that I've got the<BR>
>originals...something about helping to pay back Marc Miller for all the<BR>
>enjoyment he gave me over the years...) the "classic books 1-8 collection".<BR>
><BR>
>Anybody know if the adventures, double adventures, etc. will be released in a<BR>
>similar format?<BR>
<BR>
Yes - try http://members.aol.com/Traveller/ for more info. If that <BR>
isn't the FarFuture site, try BITS http://www.bits.org.uk/ or <BR>
downport http://www.downport.com/ and use the cross links.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that Supplements are due out this month, and that Adventures are <BR>
next. All the old CT stuff is coming back, including the games.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Take care! While I'm not doing much Traveller anymore, on those clear nights<BR>
>I drag out my 15" reflecting telescope. Oftentimes I'll come across something<BR>
>and say to myself "now that would make a dramatic backdrop for a Traveller<BR>
>game!"<BR>
><BR>
>Fred Kiesche<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:07:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 -0400 5/5/00,  Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com> wrote:<BR>
>That I remember from the comic book (which also had the Han meeting with<BR>
>Jabba outside the Falcon). Does this mean that the comic book guys had<BR>
>access to a different version of the movie, perhaps one that was shown to a<BR>
>test audience and edited down? Access to the screenplay, surely.<BR>
>I was kind of hoping both scenes would show up in the 20th anniversary<BR>
>version, but no such luck.<BR>
<BR>
The Jabba scene reappeared in the Special Edition release with the <BR>
non-humanoid version of him overlaid in CGI. I saw the <BR>
pre-modification version in a show which was talking about the <BR>
changes for the re-releases.<BR>
<BR>
So it was shot.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:19:09 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
Marc will do the<BR>
> whole series as long as sales stay good.  The first book has sold extremely<BR>
> well.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Oh good!. I felt guilty not getting it, but I already have all of the<BR>
books in the first one, but I've been champing at the bit to get the<BR>
next two in the series. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:18:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Pretty Ships...<BR>
<BR>
Have a look at the ships that Gordon Horne has been generating at <BR>
this URL - how about we go some Traveller designs for them?<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/contest.html<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 00:35:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Virus Redux<BR>
<BR>
Well, now it all makes sense.  All those people were running MS Outlook <BR>
1120 and made the mistake of opening a attachment called "LOVE LETTER FROM <BR>
LUCAN"...<BR>
<BR>
The rest is history.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:29:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Root URL<BR>
<BR>
Actually,<BR>
<BR>
Gordon's whole site is pretty nice. There are other image links and <BR>
deckplans off....<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/ghorne/scifi.html<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
*AMOUR* - by Brian Patten<BR>
She said I was a wolf in sheep's clothing.<BR>
Not true.<BR>
I was a lamb, in armour.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 13:37:44 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Pretty Ships...<BR>
<BR>
At 06:18 PM 5/5/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Have a look at the ships that Gordon Horne has been generating at this URL <BR>
>- how about we go some Traveller designs for them?<BR>
><BR>
>http://members.home.net/spacecraft/contest.html<BR>
<BR>
Well, Mystery Ship #3 looks to me like a K'kree vessel, and #4 looks like <BR>
some sort of bulk freighter...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 13:42:33 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>Distinguishing between species can be difficult, and between subspecies<BR>
>>even more so. I am not trying to discourage this sort of characterization,<BR>
>>but people should be aware that there are shades of grey involved.<BR>
>Yes, but my main point is that in the TU they have evidence that we do not<BR>
>have in the Real Universe. To wit, that various descendants of hominids<BR>
>taken from Earth 300,000 years ago are still interfertile, which proves<BR>
>that they are the same species, which further proves that their closest<BR>
>common ancestor was also the same species (two descendants must of<BR>
>necessity have diverged less from their common ancestor than from each<BR>
>other.<BR>
<BR>
	I am not trying to dispute any of this.  My only point was that<BR>
	subspecies is a somewhat fuzzy concept, and distinguishing<BR>
	subspecies can be, to a large extent, arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
>In the RU Homo sapiens may not have evolved already 300,000 years ago, and<BR>
>even if he had there's no way to prove it. In the TU he had and it is a<BR>
>proven fact. So in the TU there are less shades of grey than in the RU.<BR>
<BR>
	Archaologists consider that /Homo sapiens/ has been around for about<BR>
	300,000 years, judging from the physical characteristics revealed by<BR>
	bones.  We certainly do not know whether or not current humans could<BR>
	successfully breed with people plucked from 300,000 years ago (this<BR>
	is not the universal criterion for species definition, though it is<BR>
	perhaps the most common for extant mammals).<BR>
<BR>
	In the OTU, the various 'races' of Humaniti can interbreed successfully,<BR>
	suggesting that they should all be considered one species (there are<BR>
	still potential 'grey areas') but that doesn't remove any of the 'grey<BR>
	area' involving subspecies.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:59:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Tranq<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>What happens if someone is struck by a Tranq needle or is<BR>
>sprayed with Tranq Gas - would a filter mask prevent it <BR>
>and if shot, if the Tranq Needle's Penetration is less <BR>
>than armour - does it even penetrate to inflict thetoxin?<BR>
<BR>
A word about tranq, sophs, is this:  Unreliable.  I've seen<BR>
a man hit by tranq go into a berserk state for three<BR>
minutes and kill one of his own before falling down<BR>
unconscious -- and then he was in a coma for four hours and<BR>
died before he got medical attention beyond first aid. <BR>
Autopsy result:  he was already on combat drug and zip, and<BR>
probably hadn't slept in three days.  We saw the<BR>
synergistic result.<BR>
<BR>
Nowadays my crew just fills their tranq needles with an<BR>
accelerant that begins its reaction after several seconds<BR>
of contact with water.  The accelerant enters the body of<BR>
the target (which is mostly water) and mixes around a<BR>
little in the body's vascular systems, then starts to burn.<BR>
 The body is usually reduced to ash in a few seconds.  The<BR>
target usually looks more surprised that in great pain.   <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:53:35 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
<BR>
Sam wrote:<BR>
> Am I just being overly sensitive or was there a very distinct <BR>
> lean towards players making their fortunes through outright<BR>
> illegal activity in the CT days? Is that why A8 - Prison Planet<BR>
> was needed? They definitely mellowed as MT came around,<BR>
> especially with Charles Gannon and the Bad Karma rule for Star<BR>
> Mercs in Hard Times. I skipped TNE, but T4 seemed to have a<BR>
> slight subcurrent of the illegal becoming ascendant.<BR>
><BR>
> Where does GT sit? And where are individual GMs? Do you run<BR>
> Saviors of the Imperium or It's Money, Hand it to Me?<BR>
<BR>
Given most players' (in my experience) tendency  to  anarchy  and<BR>
semi-controlled violence I saw CT as being influenced by TV shows<BR>
like "The A-Team".  MT has a civil war as a backdrop and  so  the<BR>
PCs violent tendencies seem less contrasted.  The Bad Karma  rule<BR>
(late-MT) and TNE felt like spoon-fed morality.  And T4  was  CT-<BR>
nostalgia.  (At least that's my impression.)<BR>
<BR>
As a GM I keep my players in active service (no muster  out)  and<BR>
thus keep the PCs' anarchy more focused.  Thus they are  a  cross<BR>
between the "Dirty Dozen" and "Kelly's Heroes".<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
>From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>From: Karen and Michael Hughes<BR>
>> M> <BR>
>> <Bond, we need you to go to the Bahamas and sleep with <BR>
>>lots of women><BR>
><BR>
>Ooooh! If you insist!<g><BR>
<BR>
Remember, you're doing it for Queen and Country!  It's not<BR>
a bloody holiday! Try to take it as seriously as any other<BR>
duty, 007.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rubber Suit Problem<BR>
<BR>
>From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>> I Think You Mean Swedish. Hope This Helps. Have A Nice<BR>
>>>Day.><BR>
>>I am pretty sure I mean Swedish (check my e-mail address<BR>
>>and realize why), but the concept exists at least in <BR>
>>Norweigan as well.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Men desvaerre ik' paa dansk.  Dunno about Finnish.<BR>
<BR>
Tm ei ole suomeksi.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:09:59 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Tranq<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>Nowadays my crew just fills their tranq needles with an<BR>
>accelerant that begins its reaction after several seconds<BR>
>of contact with water.  The accelerant enters the body of<BR>
>the target (which is mostly water) and mixes around a<BR>
>little in the body's vascular systems, then starts to burn.<BR>
>The body is usually reduced to ash in a few seconds.  The<BR>
>target usually looks more surprised that in great pain.   <BR>
<BR>
Question: why are you bothering with an expensive, poor<BR>
performance weapon intended for capturing targets (relatively)<BR>
unharmed, when your intent seems to be to kill them anyway?<BR>
Are uninformed LEO's allowing you to carry Tranq without<BR>
checking to see that your loads are non-lethal?<BR>
<BR>
Also, is an accelerant that can, in dart-sized doses, <BR>
cause a chemical reaction that will burn a man to ash<BR>
based on real chemistry, or is it a science fantasy bit?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:11:25 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Space Rangers (was Re: OT: Farscape RPG?)<BR>
<BR>
>In one of the last episodes, did not Sheridan make her his security chief?<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
>killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
>--<BR>
>Tod Glenn<BR>
>mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
Could be.  I missed a couple of the last episodes.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:21:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Tranq<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> A word about tranq, sophs, is this:  Unreliable.  I've seen<BR>
> a man hit by tranq go into a berserk state for three<BR>
> minutes and kill one of his own before falling down<BR>
> unconscious -- and then he was in a coma for four hours and<BR>
> died before he got medical attention beyond first aid. <BR>
<BR>
Then again, people can do that after being shot with guns too ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> Nowadays my crew just fills their tranq needles with an<BR>
> accelerant that begins its reaction after several seconds<BR>
> of contact with water.  The accelerant enters the body of<BR>
> the target (which is mostly water) and mixes around a<BR>
> little in the body's vascular systems, then starts to burn.<BR>
>  The body is usually reduced to ash in a few seconds.  The<BR>
> target usually looks more surprised that in great pain. <BR>
<BR>
Now there's a bit of fantasy chemistry for you.  Totally impossible unless<BR>
its some sort of nuclear accelerant, but sounds amusing.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2400<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2401</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2401<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Tranq<BR>
Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
RE: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
Houston, We Have Spewage!<BR>
re: Tranq <BR>
Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
Re VIlani Biology<BR>
[BITS] CONVENTION REMINDER - Dudley<BR>
Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
Re: SJG's TNS, redux<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
Re: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
Re: Tranq<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:29:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tranq<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Nowadays my crew just fills their tranq needles with an<BR>
> > accelerant that begins its reaction after several seconds<BR>
> > of contact with water.  The accelerant enters the body of<BR>
> > the target (which is mostly water) and mixes around a<BR>
> > little in the body's vascular systems, then starts to burn.<BR>
> >  The body is usually reduced to ash in a few seconds.  The<BR>
> > target usually looks more surprised that in great pain.<BR>
><BR>
> Now there's a bit of fantasy chemistry for you.  Totally impossible unless<BR>
> its some sort of nuclear accelerant, but sounds amusing.<BR>
<BR>
What about using HKu (Kuntzic Acid)? Kuntzium has some remarkable<BR>
properties.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone else remenber Kuntzium?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:35:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
<BR>
I've been reading the thread regarding Tranq rounds with great interest.<BR>
<BR>
I've never been able to find actual game rules (I'm a CT fan).<BR>
<BR>
I'm using Tranq in a current game and here's how I handle it.<BR>
<BR>
I give Tranq 4 die 6 damage.<BR>
<BR>
The first two dice are applied immediately against END (arbitrary<BR>
decision on my part)  The next two dice are applied randomly one die per<BR>
round for the next two rounds.  Unconsciousness lasts 1d6 x 10 min.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone else have any house rules they use for Tranq rounds?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:40:07 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels writes:<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
>>>I thought it was Genus Species Subspecies, i.e. Homo sapiens [something]<BR>
>>Yes, you're quite right. I don't know whare my mind was when I wrote that.<BR>
>>Sorry.<BR>
>But it isn't always that way.<BR>
<BR>
	Well, one can write it any way they want, of course.  However, in the<BR>
	biology community the only correct way to write is as Hans has<BR>
	indicated.<BR>
<BR>
>I looked at several discussions<BR>
>of this recently.  From my somewhat cursory look into, it<BR>
>seems clear to me that the usage of these classifications<BR>
>has changed over time.<BR>
<BR>
	The heirarchical system that we use today was introduced by Carolus<BR>
	Linnaeus in 1735.  In _Systema Naturae_ he presented a catalogue of<BR>
	the works of the Creator, and it was not until the publication of<BR>
	_The Origin of Species_ by Chucky Darwin that biologists saw the<BR>
	system of Domain - Kingdom - Phylum - Class - Order - Family -<BR>
	Genus - species - subspecies (with lots of other levels in between)<BR>
	as reflecting evolutionary relationships.<BR>
<BR>
>The "genus species subspecies"<BR>
>is the ideal, but there are many exceptions.  I think,<BR>
>though someone else might actually know, that the<BR>
>many, many exceptions are older, less-uniform classifications.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure what you mean by "ideal."  This is the system currently<BR>
	in use by biologists.  Subspecies are subdivisions of species.<BR>
	Species are subdivisions of Genus'.  There have been cases where<BR>
	classifications have been changed when, for example, a species in<BR>
	one genus is found to be more closely related to members of another<BR>
	genus.<BR>
<BR>
>Most exceptions that I observed involved inserting a term<BR>
>between the genus and species to identify all sorts of<BR>
>different things:<BR>
<BR>
	There are lots of intermediate levels of classification.  Subphylum,<BR>
	Superclass, etc., etc.<BR>
<BR>
>geographical region<BR>
<BR>
	Names may be based on geographic region, but classification should<BR>
	be based on biology.<BR>
<BR>
>minor differences in coloration, physiology, etc.<BR>
<BR>
	That depends on what you mean by "minor."  Keep in mind that what a<BR>
	biologist uses to identify the members of two different species is<BR>
	not necessarily the same thing as what is used as justification for<BR>
	treating them as two different species.<BR>
<BR>
>primary significant populations vs. small, isolated ones.<BR>
<BR>
	If there are biological differences between these two groups, they<BR>
	may be classified differently.  If not, they should be considered<BR>
	different populations of the same species.<BR>
<BR>
>For example:  Zebras.<BR>
>Family Equidae<BR>
>Genus Equus<BR>
>Several types are specified:<BR>
>E. quagga<BR>
>E. quagga quagga (extinct)<BR>
>E. grevyi<BR>
>E. zebra<BR>
>The primary difference between these 'species' is the location of<BR>
>their habitat, though there are some differences in striping and<BR>
>size.  Apparently, they can interbreed, which means they are<BR>
>the same species by definition.<BR>
<BR>
	There are a number of definitions of species.  The 'biological' species<BR>
	definition is a reproductively isolated group, but what if A can breed<BR>
	with B, and B can breed with C, but A cannot breed with C?  Are A and B<BR>
	the same species?  B and C?  A and C?  This situation does occur.<BR>
<BR>
	There have been many cases in which the same species has been given<BR>
	different names in different areas, but the location of a population's<BR>
	habitat is not a factor in deciding whether two populations belong to the<BR>
	same species.  If /E. grevyi/ and /E. zebra/ are different species, then<BR>
	the most important factors would be such traits as striping and size.<BR>
	This is not to say that location did not play a roll in early biologists<BR>
	calling them different species, but if current biologists consider them<BR>
	different species then they must think that there is something more than<BR>
	location separating them.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Then there are horses and donkeys (Ob. Trav, mules and<BR>
>crossbreeding between Zhodani and other Humaniti):<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Note that the 'biological' species definition is really about successful<BR>
	breeding.  Producing sterile offspring would not be considered 'successful<BR>
	in this context.  Even having a low probability of producing fertile<BR>
	offspring would generally be considered enough of a barrier to warrent<BR>
	species status.<BR>
<BR>
>These are the most commonly encountered hybrids of the<BR>
>Equidae familty, certainly, but some of the other genus can<BR>
interbreed as well.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Check out plants.<BR>
<BR>
>Ob. Trav.:  If Zhodani, Vilani, Solomani, and whatever<BR>
>else you have are capable of interbreeding, even if the<BR>
>probability is a rare as that of female mules producing<BR>
>offspring (which does happen), IMO, they should<BR>
>be considered the same species and the classification<BR>
>used should reflect that, Solomani non-uniform classification<BR>
>methods notwithstanding.<BR>
<BR>
	Any definition of species is essentially arbitrary.  The 'biological'<BR>
	definition is the most intuitive, so most people can stick to that<BR>
	one.  Thus, if Zhodani et al can generally interbreed successfully<BR>
	they should be considered one species.  If you can generally tell<BR>
	them appart you might consider them different subspecies.<BR>
<BR>
>I would even go so far to say this for hybrids produced<BR>
>with the assistance of some level of genetic modification.<BR>
<BR>
	The heirarchical system that we now use has no place for hybrids,<BR>
	which is a problem when lineages have apparently converged.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:43:29 EDT<BR>
From: Diespamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Houston, We Have Spewage!<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-05 14:26:10 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 00:35:10 -0700<BR>
 From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
 Subject: Virus Redux<BR>
 <BR>
 Well, now it all makes sense.  All those people were running MS Outlook <BR>
 1120 and made the mistake of opening a attachment called "LOVE LETTER FROM <BR>
 LUCAN"...<BR>
 <BR>
 The rest is history. >><BR>
<BR>
SPEWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Geee...and it's the first time I've been able to relax during lunch in about <BR>
3 months...and now I need a new keyboard and a clean screen!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Fred Kiesche<BR>
(Traveller...on and off...since 1977!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Tranq <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Also, is an accelerant that can, in dart-sized doses, <BR>
>cause a chemical reaction that will burn a man to ash<BR>
>based on real chemistry, or is it a science fantasy bit?<BR>
<BR>
Sure it's real.  I saw something like it on The X-Files.<BR>
<BR>
>Question: why are you bothering with an expensive, poor<BR>
>performance weapon intended for capturing targets <BR>
>(relatively) unharmed, when your intent seems to be to <BR>
>kill them anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I take it that you didn't find that bit humorous, then?<BR>
<BR>
>Are uninformed LEO's allowing you to carry Tranq without<BR>
>checking to see that your loads are non-lethal?<BR>
<BR>
This is a real issue.  If local law allows you to carry<BR>
snub pistols with non-lethal loads but not with lethal<BR>
loads, then you're subject to inspection.  Usually,<BR>
however, if local law allows you to carry snub pistols, it<BR>
also allows auto pistols, etc., and doesn't care about the<BR>
lethality of the load.  (That law level is more likely to<BR>
be concerned about HE and HEAP rounds.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:27:13 -0500<BR>
From: Dan.Haag@midata.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
These two scenes and several more were in the audio tape version of the<BR>
movie that I used to have.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Haag<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:32:00 -0500<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>     Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
> mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
> However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
> Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
> resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds like a job for Downport!  <g> Isn't there a "Game Wanted"<BR>
section already there?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:45:13 -0800<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re VIlani Biology<BR>
<BR>
>> If the proteins of Vland native life were made up of D-isomer amino<BR>
>> acids instead of L-isomers, the Vilani could not have survived.<BR>
>> D-isomers are very difficult to absorb, lack nutritional value and<BR>
>> require a lot of effort to 'invert' [Spontaneous inversion takes years<BR>
>> and forms the basis of an archaeological dating technique].<BR>
>> Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
>Is there any reason why life could not evolve which can metabolize both<BR>
>stereoisomers?<BR>
><BR>
>You can certainly see why the use of both might evolve on one world, but by<BR>
>different life forms. Using the D-isomer would be a good defense against<BR>
>being eaten by your L-isomer based predators, and vice-versa. You would then<BR>
>have essentially two separate yet parallel food chains.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, some interesting bits have already occured WRT Dextro- and Levo-<BR>
isomeric constuructions. The majorioty of earths have one handedness, with<BR>
a few of the ones used being produced and used by a few select organisms<BR>
being the opposite handedness.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, ouside of amino acids, many other biological chemicals<BR>
(Sugars and Protiens) have dextro and levo forms: Dextro-suguars are the<BR>
norm, but some can break down levo-sugars (so there is a point to them<BR>
existing in sufficient quantities to make Equal). And since most<BR>
levo-sugars are indigenstible to most examples of most species, HS solomani<BR>
has begun synthesizing them to produce a sweetener that cooks, tastes, and<BR>
reacts as the sugar it is, but survives the ailiamentary tract without<BR>
absorbtion....<BR>
<BR>
Some yeasts can survive  on levo or dextro sugars. I've experimented with<BR>
this. Dextro-sugars are better, but not the be-all...<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis Vilani: uilamaanamti sirohbrankilin<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 22:08:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] CONVENTION REMINDER - Dudley<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Just a reminder that we'll be at Dudley tomorrow for the Ball, and <BR>
will have ACQ and possibly the first copies of 101 Patrons (if Andy <BR>
has them complete).<BR>
<BR>
REPEAT OF PREVIOUS INFO: The Dudley Bug Ball V (sponsored by <BR>
Brittannia Game Designs Ltd).<BR>
<BR>
Now in its fifth year the annual Dudley Bug Ball will soon be coming <BR>
on the 6th of May 2000 at Rowley Regis College, at 9.30AM until <BR>
8.30PM. BITS will be there.<BR>
<BR>
TRAVEL BY CAR:<BR>
<BR>
For anyone driving upto DBB from the south on the M5, I've just<BR>
learnt that the northbound exit slipway of J2 of the M5 will be shut.<BR>
The Highways Agency have sent me a PDF giving diversions for any<BR>
northbound traffic using the M5. If you follow the diversion to<BR>
Birchfield Island on the Map and then take the A4034 sign posted<BR>
Halesowen you will be back on route.,<BR>
<BR>
The PDF is at <http://members.aol.com/dudleybug/> <BR>
http://members.aol.com/dudleybug/ as is further<BR>
information about the Convention.<BR>
<BR>
Hope to see you there.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (who will dress originally in black)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:22:43 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/05/05/kleopatra/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Cool images. They think it's a nickle-iron one, based on the radar<BR>
return. It's 135 miles long by 58 wide...make a rather decent city in<BR>
the belt I would think...or the SDB from HELL. <BR>
<BR>
Imagine what you could do with 135 mile long spinal mount <BR>
<BR>
...heh heh heh. <BR>
<BR>
Now WHERE in the hell did I put FFS2!!!!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 17:40:57 EDT<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
<BR>
You probably all know it, but that one asteroid contains more metal allow <BR>
than has ever been extracted on Earth.  Not one or two times as much but <BR>
hundreds if not thousands of times as much as minkind has been able to put to <BR>
use in the past several millenia (I'm too lazy to do the math).  Keep in mind <BR>
when creating Traveller background that huge chunks of metal like this this <BR>
have been mined and placed into the stream of interstellar commerce for ages. <BR>
 It makes for a different viewpoint on the availability of resources.  We <BR>
today tend to think in terms of scarcity of resources.  In the Traveller <BR>
universe, (as Jerry Pournelle once wrote) it's raining soup and all that is <BR>
needed are good buckets to catch it all in.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 16:37:05 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can fire it up again... anyone want to send in<BR>
their campaign stats?<BR>
<BR>
I've got a rudimentary http server running; how 'bout<BR>
I put up a servlet + webpage that manages a list of running<BR>
campaigns?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>     Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
> mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
> However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
> Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
> resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
> <BR>
> Joe<BR>
> <BR>
> campaign url: http://home.nc.rr.com/lachance/Marshal.htm<BR>
> In addition to 1-2 email turns per week we tend to meet/game online on<BR>
> sundays.  If interested feel free to drop an email.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:52:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
<BR>
Yea but will I be able to get a decent cup of Coffee?<BR>
<BR>
>>> <KenRoney@aol.com> 05/05/00 02:40PM >>><BR>
You probably all know it, but that one asteroid contains more metal allow <BR>
than has ever been extracted on Earth.  Not one or two times as much but <BR>
hundreds if not thousands of times as much as minkind has been able to put to <BR>
use in the past several millenia (I'm too lazy to do the math).  Keep in mind <BR>
when creating Traveller background that huge chunks of metal like this this <BR>
have been mined and placed into the stream of interstellar commerce for ages. <BR>
 It makes for a different viewpoint on the availability of resources.  We <BR>
today tend to think in terms of scarcity of resources.  In the Traveller <BR>
universe, (as Jerry Pournelle once wrote) it's raining soup and all that is <BR>
needed are good buckets to catch it all in.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:01:25 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
On 05/05/00 at 02:32 PM,  Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
>> mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
>> However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
>> Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
>> resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
<BR>
>That sounds like a job for Downport!  <g> Isn't there a "Game Wanted"<BR>
>section already there?<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't find it on Downport when I looked, but I *know* there was a "Game Wanted" page on some site I visited recently where you could advertise games that needed players and players that needed games. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:09:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That I remember from the comic book (which also had the Han meeting with<BR>
>Jabba outside the Falcon). Does this mean that the comic book guys had<BR>
>access to a different version of the movie, perhaps one that was shown to a<BR>
>test audience and edited down? Access to the screenplay, surely.<BR>
>I was kind of hoping both scenes would show up in the 20th anniversary<BR>
>version, but no such luck.<BR>
<BR>
You might want to look for the "Making of the Return of the Jedi" videotapes<BR>
which every video-store had once upon a time. I know the Jabba scene was on<BR>
it (they were explaining how the concept of Jabba started out as just a guy<BR>
and ended up as a big slug monster).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 15:11:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
Colin does have an active campaigns list on his site.<BR>
http://www.downport.com/understanding/active.html <BR>
<BR>
>>> <eris@pcola.gulf.net> 05/05/00 03:01PM >>><BR>
On 05/05/00 at 02:32 PM,  Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     Recently an on-line campaign that has been brewing in my mind (not too<BR>
>> mention loose leaf papers and computer files) has come to fruition.<BR>
>> However, I'm wondering if there is a centralized "match-making" board for<BR>
>> Traveller players and refs.  Rob Eaglestone's list from 1999 is a great<BR>
>> resource (lists current Traveller campaigns), but is several months old.<BR>
<BR>
>That sounds like a job for Downport!  <g> Isn't there a "Game Wanted"<BR>
>section already there?<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't find it on Downport when I looked, but I *know* there was a "Game Wanted" page on some site I visited recently where you could advertise games that needed players and players that needed games. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 15:15:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
<BR>
To bring up another one.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone besides me have the tapes to the Star Wars Radio Drama?<BR>
<BR>
It came to mind since that is the first time I saw (heard) the scene where Luke witnessed the space battle.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:07:52 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SJG's TNS, redux<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 May 2000 11:06:57 -0400 (EDT), shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca<BR>
(Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  ISTR an old SF short story where the good guys had the tremendous<BR>
>advantage that their FTL (/instantaneous) comm tech ("Dirac transmitter",<BR>
>IIRC?) wasn't very biased against causality - the system could actually<BR>
>be mined for all of the transmissions that would _ever_ be made...<BR>
<BR>
>  A better than average short on such things, IMHO. (was in the second<BR>
>volume of the "Galactic Empires" anthology?).<BR>
<BR>
Originally published as "Beep", by James Blish; later lightly<BR>
expanded into a short novel under the title "The Quincunx of<BR>
Time".<BR>
<BR>
Yes, "Beep" was in volume 2 of Galactic Empires - page 77 of the<BR>
SFBC edition.<BR>
<BR>
And yes, it was the Dirac transmitter.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 19:07:59 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 5 May 2000 11:06:57 -0400 (EDT), Diespamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>A silly question: I was at a conference in mid-town NYC this week and stopped <BR>
>in at the Compleat Strategist to pick up a copy of SJG's "Starports". While I <BR>
>was there, I also snagged (despite the fact that I've got the <BR>
>originals...something about helping to pay back Marc Miller for all the <BR>
>enjoyment he gave me over the years...) the "classic books 1-8 collection".<BR>
<BR>
>Anybody know if the adventures, double adventures, etc. will be released in a <BR>
>similar format?<BR>
<BR>
He says they will.  I have no reason to disbelieve.  And every<BR>
reason to believe as hard as I can.<BR>
<BR>
>Take care! While I'm not doing much Traveller anymore, on those clear nights <BR>
>I drag out my 15" reflecting telescope. Oftentimes I'll come across something <BR>
>and say to myself "now that would make a dramatic backdrop for a Traveller <BR>
>game!"<BR>
<BR>
GIF! GIF! GIF!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 21:38:32 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
At 10:19 AM -0700 5/5/00, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>Marc will do the<BR>
>>  whole series as long as sales stay good.  The first book has sold extremely<BR>
>>  well.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Oh good!. I felt guilty not getting it, but I already have all of the<BR>
>books in the first one, but I've been champing at the bit to get the<BR>
>next two in the series.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone know if they'll be easier to buy?  I never figured out Marc's<BR>
web site...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 21:08:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
<BR>
on 5/5/00 11:35 AM, Chris Dixon at cdixon@airfoiltech.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been reading the thread regarding Tranq rounds with great interest.<BR>
> <BR>
> I've never been able to find actual game rules (I'm a CT fan).<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm using Tranq in a current game and here's how I handle it.<BR>
> <BR>
> I give Tranq 4 die 6 damage.<BR>
> <BR>
> The first two dice are applied immediately against END (arbitrary<BR>
> decision on my part)  The next two dice are applied randomly one die per<BR>
> round for the next two rounds.  Unconsciousness lasts 1d6 x 10 min.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyone else have any house rules they use for Tranq rounds?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
The tranq used IMTU is a highly evolved crystiline anesthetic, which in the<BR>
bloodstream, acts as it's own buffer.  Regardless of the titre, the amount<BR>
of tranq that is bio-available is fixed.  Thus, the chance of overdosing is<BR>
almost non-existant (there are _always_ exceptions).  Although CT rolls,<BR>
were also use checks against stats.  In this case, I have the player roll 1,<BR>
2, 3 or more d6 against their END, dependant on the effectiveness of the<BR>
hit.  If they go down, the more tranq the got hit with, the longer they're<BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
I will post the definitive rules in the house rule section of my site<BR>
<http://www.travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:09:36 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Tranq<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >What happens if someone is struck by a Tranq needle or is<BR>
> >sprayed with Tranq Gas - would a filter mask prevent it<BR>
> >and if shot, if the Tranq Needle's Penetration is less<BR>
> >than armour - does it even penetrate to inflict thetoxin?<BR>
><BR>
> A word about tranq, sophs, is this:  Unreliable.  I've seen<BR>
> a man hit by tranq go into a berserk state for three<BR>
> minutes and kill one of his own before falling down<BR>
> unconscious -- and then he was in a coma for four hours and<BR>
> died before he got medical attention beyond first aid.<BR>
> Autopsy result:  he was already on combat drug and zip, and<BR>
> probably hadn't slept in three days.  We saw the<BR>
> synergistic result.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
> >Nowadays my crew just fills their tranq needles with an<BR>
> >accelerant that begins its reaction after several seconds<BR>
> >of contact with water.  The accelerant enters the body of<BR>
> >the target (which is mostly water) and mixes around a<BR>
> >little in the body's vascular systems, then starts to burn.<BR>
> >The body is usually reduced to ash in a few seconds.  The<BR>
> >target usually looks more surprised that in great pain.<BR>
><BR>
> Question: why are you bothering with an expensive, poor<BR>
> performance weapon intended for capturing targets (relatively)<BR>
> unharmed, when your intent seems to be to kill them anyway?<BR>
> Are uninformed LEO's allowing you to carry Tranq without<BR>
> checking to see that your loads are non-lethal?<BR>
><BR>
> Also, is an accelerant that can, in dart-sized doses,<BR>
> cause a chemical reaction that will burn a man to ash<BR>
> based on real chemistry, or is it a science fantasy bit?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well if it produces a reaction like what Spontanious Combustion is alleged<BR>
to be able to cause then I guess it could exist in reality. And of course<BR>
this is a SF game ala Jump Drives and Anti Grav - so it could be a case of<BR>
it belonging to the 'the Future awaits' category. I'd see it being very<BR>
expensive though (1 thou' a dart?)<BR>
<BR>
What Law Level would reg this, 1? Would it come under the poisons entry<BR>
(which from memory is banned at LL 1).<BR>
<BR>
Also WHAT ABOUT TRANQ????? What the hell does it do?<BR>
<BR>
M<BR>
<BR>
<Bond, scratch lower, lower - ahh that's it - well done><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2401<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2402</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2402<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
Ordering CT Reprints Online (was Re: Faster and faster)<BR>
Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
Re: The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
Re: The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
(NYPD 5500 AD) Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
Re: Space Rangers (was Re: OT: Farscape RPG?)<BR>
Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
Re : Tranquilliser ammunition<BR>
Re: Faster and faster<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 00:08:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
On 05/05/00 at 07:49 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 22:31 -0400 4/5/00, Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>>Another RPG mailing list (the Rolemaster mailing list) that I subscribe to had<BR>
>>an e-mail virus appearing in it today. I am about 99% sure this is not a hoax.<BR>
<BR>
>It's real - I know of at least one major UK company whose system was <BR>
>taken down by it - I believe it requires a mail program which will  run<BR>
>Visual Basic. Fortunately our Firewall at work took it out.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it requires a mail program that will run Visual Basic.  Just<BR>
make sure your email clients don't automatically launch executables.<BR>
I think what got so many people is that Outlook *defaults* to<BR>
automatic execution, and many folks don't even know how to change<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
*certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    happily practicing safe computing with OS/2, Linux and properly<BR>
    neutered Windows<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 00:16:00 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/05/00 at 02:52 PM,  "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Yea but will I be able to get a decent cup of Coffee?<BR>
<BR>
>>>> <KenRoney@aol.com> 05/05/00 02:40PM >>><BR>
>You probably all know it, but that one asteroid contains more metal allow<BR>
> than has ever been extracted on Earth.  <BR>
<BR>
And you've hit on the nut of truth about Traveller Trade. We've bean looking at it all wrong. It's not metals, it's agricultural products that will form the kernal of trade in the 3I.  <BR>
<BR>
Teas, coffee, tobacco, and various other products won't grow as well, or will have different flavors in alien soils. Lively trades among worlds will grow up around the systems that can grow the "tastiest" treats.<BR>
<BR>
So, let's go back and revise those trade charts! Drop all the references to iron, gold and such and replace them with the *really* valuable products.<BR>
<BR>
Coffee Break!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 00:23:47 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Ordering CT Reprints Online (was Re: Faster and faster)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/05/00 at 09:38 PM,  Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 10:19 AM -0700 5/5/00, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>>Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>Marc will do the<BR>
>>>  whole series as long as sales stay good.  The first book has sold extremely<BR>
>>>  well.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>Oh good!. I felt guilty not getting it, but I already have all of the<BR>
>>books in the first one, but I've been champing at the bit to get the<BR>
>>next two in the series.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone know if they'll be easier to buy?  I never figured out Marc's web<BR>
>site...<BR>
<BR>
Grin! I think I have it and it's pretty easy...I think. <BR>
<BR>
Take the link on Marc's site to Paypal and register a credit card. You'll get $5 in your account and so will Marc. Then use paypal to send Marc the money for the order (farfuture@aol.com) and include your name, address and what you're buying in the note.  I kept two browsers open while I was doing this, one set to Marc's order form and one for Paypal. That way I could make sure I had the numbers right when I put them in the note.<BR>
<BR>
I placed an order yesterday, so we'll see if it works. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 22:32:47 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
<BR>
>From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Campaign Lists<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I can fire it up again... anyone want to send in<BR>
>their campaign stats?<BR>
><BR>
>Rob<BR>
<BR>
Sure, I have several I run online:<BR>
<BR>
Marching Behind the Claw - Campaigns<BR>
Location: Online Chat - WebRPG<BR>
Milieu: Spinward Marches 1121, alternate timeline<BR>
Rules: GT & Window (CORPS in production)<BR>
Health: Excellent<BR>
Group has met since: July 1999<BR>
Frequency: One group on Sundays, Another group on Wednesdays<BR>
Players: 3+ on Sundays, 7 on Wednesdays<BR>
Refs: 1~ (others occasionally help out w/writing)<BR>
E-mail: arioch@theriver.com; oekhsos@hotmail.com<BR>
Website: http://personal.riverusers.com/~arioch/mbc/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Notes:<BR>
GT - Scouts surveying the Spinward Marches, plays Sunday evenings.  Uses<BR>
modified GURPS rules.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller, The Window - Far Traders/Smugglers in the Regina subsector,<BR>
plays on Wednesday evenings.  Ex-scouts discharged from the service<BR>
turned smugglers.  Uses The WIndow for rule system.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also working on a CORPS Traveller game and several pick up games.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 22:54:04 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:16 AM 5/6/00 -0500, Eris wrote:<BR>
>And you've hit on the nut of truth about Traveller Trade. We've bean looking<BR>
at it all wrong. It's not metals, it's agricultural products that will form<BR>
the<BR>
kernal of trade in the 3I. <BR>
><BR>
>Teas, coffee, tobacco, and various other products won't grow as well, or will<BR>
have different flavors in alien soils. Lively trades among worlds will grow up<BR>
around the systems that can grow the "tastiest" treats.<BR>
><BR>
>So, let's go back and revise those trade charts! Drop all the references to<BR>
iron, gold and such and replace them with the *really* valuable products.<BR>
<BR>
Can we say "Solar Spice & Liquors" ???<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:11:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 3 May 2000 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT), Robert Houghton<BR>
> <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I still think NYPD Blue woule would be improved by a couple of Vargr from <BR>
> the Drugs<BR>
>>squad.<BR>
><BR>
> (From a NYPD recruiting brochure, approximately 5500AD)<BR>
><BR>
> The New York City Police Department is always hiring.<BR>
><BR>
> We are an Equal Opportunity Employer, committed to keeping New<BR>
> York's Finest the Finest anywhere. This requires a multicultural<BR>
> force capable of tailoring response to the needs of the specific<BR>
> community.  Extra-Terrestrial origin is no bar to employment with<BR>
> the NYPD, although all members of the service are required to<BR>
> have Terran citizenship and reside within the New York City<BR>
> Consolidated Economic District.<BR>
><BR>
> Extraterrestrials are encouraged to apply for the following<BR>
> units:<BR>
><BR>
> _Vargr:_  Because of documented abilities in regard to location<BR>
> and identification of chemicals, Vargr applicants are encouraged<BR>
> to orient their careers in the NYPD toward drug interdiction ("K9<BR>
> unit") and the Police Labs.  <BR>
<BR>
Also the Bomb Squad. Which has *got* to give some *damn* high charisma.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
"It's that same bomber again..."<BR>
"How can you tell?"<BR>
"I recognize the smell of the brand of TDX he uses..."<BR>
<BR>
> _K'kree:_  Your best fit is into our Mounted unit, which includes<BR>
> in its duties patrolling the City's parks.  Tolerance for the<BR>
> scent of meat and for crowds _is_ absolutely essential, as you<BR>
> may be occasionally called upon for crowd control.<BR>
<BR>
*Crowds* won't bother a K'kree. But *never* assign one to a late night<BR>
patrol  beat in the warehouse district or any other post where there<BR>
aren't lots of sophonts around.<BR>
<BR>
Finding "meat tolerant" K'kree will be a problem though.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Hey...<BR>
<BR>
I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
universe.....<BR>
<BR>
One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 18:33:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
><BR>
> Yea but will I be able to get a decent cup of Coffee?<BR>
><BR>
> >>> <KenRoney@aol.com> 05/05/00 02:40PM >>><BR>
<BR>
<stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
>We<BR>
> today tend to think in terms of scarcity of resources.  In the Traveller<BR>
> universe, (as Jerry Pournelle once wrote) it's raining soup and all that<BR>
is<BR>
> needed are good buckets to catch it all in.<BR>
<BR>
Umm, if we want those small, underpopulated mining colonies (like, say, all<BR>
those Lo-pop worlds in the 3I), then we have to start waving our hands and<BR>
explaining why this isn't true.<BR>
<BR>
OK, so between cheap contragravity, cheap fusion power, cheap reactionless<BR>
drives, and cheap jump drives, we could probably do a pretty good job on<BR>
scarcity. And yes, there is probably enough of everything in an asteroid<BR>
belt not to need mining colonies several jumps away.<BR>
<BR>
But it makes a much better universe if we take this, and what we know about<BR>
the probable uses of fusion plants to extract just about anything you want<BR>
out of seawater, and forget it.<BR>
<BR>
See, superdense needs these obscure trace elements. And then there's<BR>
lanthanum. And of course the best fource of feedstocks for relatively<BR>
"modern" (TL11 and up) composite laminates just arent that common. Plus<BR>
those complex organics you need to mine gas giants for. And all this cool<BR>
stuff just isnt evenly scattered everywhere. In fact, quite a bit of it<BR>
occours in quite small batches - enough to support a couple of thousand<BR>
miners, tops.<BR>
<BR>
It all makes sense, really. And if your players have a problem with this,<BR>
tell them to read Sraffa's "Production of Commodities by Means of<BR>
Commodities". If they claw their way through that, start photocopying random<BR>
Econometrica articles.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 01:11:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/05/05/kleopatra/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> Cool images. They think it's a nickle-iron one, based on the radar<BR>
> return. It's 135 miles long by 58 wide...make a rather decent city in<BR>
> the belt I would think...or the SDB from HELL. <BR>
><BR>
> Imagine what you could do with 135 mile long spinal mount <BR>
<BR>
And without plans showing where the stuff is inside, shots from meson<BR>
guns are just going to warm up the nickel-iron a bit. Beam weaponsa and<BR>
projectiles of any reasonable size/velocity aren't going to be<BR>
*noticed* by the folks inside.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 01:28:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Coffee Trade (was Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:16 AM 5/6/00 -0500, Eris wrote:<BR>
>> And you've hit on the nut of truth about Traveller Trade. We've bean<BR>
>> looking at it all wrong. It's not metals, it's agricultural products<BR>
>> that will form the kernal of trade in the 3I.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Teas, coffee, tobacco, and various other products won't grow as<BR>
>> well, or will have different flavors in alien soils. Lively trades<BR>
>> among worlds will grow up around the systems that can grow the<BR>
>> "tastiest" treats.<BR>
>><BR>
>> So, let's go back and revise those trade charts! Drop all the<BR>
>> references to iron, gold and such and replace them with the *really*<BR>
>> valuable products.<BR>
><BR>
> Can we say "Solar Spice & Liquors" ???<BR>
<BR>
And take a good look at the sort of the the Solar Queen's crew are<BR>
interested in in "Plague Ship". Spices, exotic woods, gemstones.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 04:28:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
>><BR>
>> Yea but will I be able to get a decent cup of Coffee?<BR>
>><BR>
>>>>> <KenRoney@aol.com> 05/05/00 02:40PM >>><BR>
><BR>
> <stuff snipped><BR>
><BR>
>> We today tend to think in terms of scarcity of resources.  In the<BR>
>> Traveller universe, (as Jerry Pournelle once wrote) it's raining<BR>
>> soup and all that is needed are good buckets to catch it all in.<BR>
><BR>
> Umm, if we want those small, underpopulated mining colonies (like, say, all<BR>
> those Lo-pop worlds in the 3I), then we have to start waving our hands and<BR>
> explaining why this isn't true.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on what they are mining. There's a lot of stuff that either<BR>
won't be found *at all* in asteroids (diamonds, and gems/minerals that<BR>
require hydrothermal action), or that will be pretty damned diffuse<BR>
(any metals that dissolve in iron).<BR>
<BR>
And you *won't* get those beautiful metamorphic minerals like marble,<BR>
malachite, etc. The stuff that folks like to use to decorate buildings.<BR>
Marble deposits could be fairly valuable, enough so to ship off world,<BR>
but not anything you'd get hugely rich off of. <BR>
<BR>
And stuff like marble or other "decoratve rock" in slabs (for walls &<BR>
floors) and chunks (for sculptors) makes an interesting cargo. It will<BR>
bring an ok profit, but god help you if you get jumped and the g-comp<BR>
or inertial comp goes out.  A hold full of *cracked* rock isn't worth<BR>
much except as paperweights... :-)<BR>
<BR>
I bet worlds with exotic atmospheres or even some sorts of taints could<BR>
have interesting minerals...<BR>
<BR>
> OK, so between cheap contragravity, cheap fusion power, cheap reactionless<BR>
> drives, and cheap jump drives, we could probably do a pretty good job on<BR>
> scarcity. And yes, there is probably enough of everything in an asteroid<BR>
> belt not to need mining colonies several jumps away.<BR>
<BR>
See above. Depends on *what* they are mining. <BR>
<BR>
> But it makes a much better universe if we take this, and what we know about<BR>
> the probable uses of fusion plants to extract just about anything you want<BR>
> out of seawater, and forget it.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, given continous fusion (as opposed to pulsed) it's not that<BR>
much harder to get it from "country rock". But it is still *more*<BR>
energy intensive (and thus at least a *bit* more expensive) than<BR>
processing "feedstock" that's more concentrated.<BR>
<BR>
> See, superdense needs these obscure trace elements. And then there's<BR>
> lanthanum. And of course the best fource of feedstocks for relatively<BR>
> "modern" (TL11 and up) composite laminates just arent that common. Plus<BR>
> those complex organics you need to mine gas giants for. And all this cool<BR>
> stuff just isnt evenly scattered everywhere. In fact, quite a bit of it<BR>
> occours in quite small batches - enough to support a couple of thousand<BR>
> miners, tops.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, they may have to process asteroids carefully, because they<BR>
*sometimes* have "gems" or at least small pockets/nodules of valuable<BR>
mineral crystals. Stuff that automated equipment might smash into<BR>
worthless pieces. That'd slow things up enough to keep the supply a bit<BR>
more restricted. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:59:24 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: (NYPD 5500 AD) Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
O.K. We have what race get majorities in which departments...what crimes are we<BR>
tracing?<BR>
<BR>
Also...what is the show title?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > On Wed, 3 May 2000 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT), Robert Houghton<BR>
> > <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>I still think NYPD Blue woule would be improved by a couple of Vargr from<BR>
> > the Drugs<BR>
> >>squad.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (From a NYPD recruiting brochure, approximately 5500AD)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The New York City Police Department is always hiring.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > We are an Equal Opportunity Employer, committed to keeping New<BR>
> > York's Finest the Finest anywhere. This requires a multicultural<BR>
> > force capable of tailoring response to the needs of the specific<BR>
> > community.  Extra-Terrestrial origin is no bar to employment with<BR>
> > the NYPD, although all members of the service are required to<BR>
> > have Terran citizenship and reside within the New York City<BR>
> > Consolidated Economic District.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Extraterrestrials are encouraged to apply for the following<BR>
> > units:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > _Vargr:_  Because of documented abilities in regard to location<BR>
> > and identification of chemicals, Vargr applicants are encouraged<BR>
> > to orient their careers in the NYPD toward drug interdiction ("K9<BR>
> > unit") and the Police Labs.<BR>
><BR>
> Also the Bomb Squad. Which has *got* to give some *damn* high charisma.<BR>
> :-)<BR>
><BR>
> "It's that same bomber again..."<BR>
> "How can you tell?"<BR>
> "I recognize the smell of the brand of TDX he uses..."<BR>
><BR>
> > _K'kree:_  Your best fit is into our Mounted unit, which includes<BR>
> > in its duties patrolling the City's parks.  Tolerance for the<BR>
> > scent of meat and for crowds _is_ absolutely essential, as you<BR>
> > may be occasionally called upon for crowd control.<BR>
><BR>
> *Crowds* won't bother a K'kree. But *never* assign one to a late night<BR>
> patrol  beat in the warehouse district or any other post where there<BR>
> aren't lots of sophonts around.<BR>
><BR>
> Finding "meat tolerant" K'kree will be a problem though.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 22:15:52 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Space Rangers (was Re: OT: Farscape RPG?)<BR>
<BR>
yes...she was "Number one".<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >In one of the last episodes, did not Sheridan make her his security chief?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >--<BR>
> >"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> >killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> >--<BR>
> >Tod Glenn<BR>
> >mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> >http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
> Could be.  I missed a couple of the last episodes.<BR>
><BR>
> Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 06:00:41 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 May 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Heck, they may have to process asteroids carefully, because they<BR>
> *sometimes* have "gems" or at least small pockets/nodules of valuable<BR>
> mineral crystals. Stuff that automated equipment might smash into<BR>
> worthless pieces. That'd slow things up enough to keep the supply a bit<BR>
> more restricted. <BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. The really big diamond mines in Africa use these giant<BR>
crushers to pulverize the rock going through so they can separate out the<BR>
diamonds (mostly small industrial grade ones, which is the meat and<BR>
potatoes of the diamond trade). This process almost certainly shatters<BR>
gems greater than a few carats in size, even though the big ones are worth<BR>
fortunes.<BR>
<BR>
Same thing happened here in Arizona in the big open pit copper mines. They<BR>
estimate that tons of gem quality turquoise was ground up in the ball<BR>
mills and a few pennies worth of copper smelted out. What stuff did come<BR>
out of the mines was what the miners happened to notice and grab up a few<BR>
chunks of.<BR>
<BR>
The olden days of pick and chisel mining allwed for recovery of<BR>
mineralogical specimens and gems (in fact, that's still pretty much the<BR>
way it's done) but modern mining techniques simply don't allow that close<BR>
an examination of the materials in a cost effective fashion.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 06:16:59 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 May 2000 eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/05/00 at 07:49 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >At 22:31 -0400 4/5/00, Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
> >>Another RPG mailing list (the Rolemaster mailing list) that I subscribe to had<BR>
> >>an e-mail virus appearing in it today. I am about 99% sure this is not a hoax.<BR>
> <BR>
> >It's real - I know of at least one major UK company whose system was <BR>
> >taken down by it - I believe it requires a mail program which will  run<BR>
> >Visual Basic. Fortunately our Firewall at work took it out.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, it requires a mail program that will run Visual Basic.  Just<BR>
> make sure your email clients don't automatically launch executables.<BR>
> I think what got so many people is that Outlook *defaults* to<BR>
> automatic execution, and many folks don't even know how to change<BR>
> that.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
> *certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Eris,<BR>
>     happily practicing safe computing with OS/2, Linux and properly<BR>
>     neutered Windows<BR>
<BR>
You can also turn off Windows Scripting Host which is the root cause of<BR>
the problem. (this will prevent any sort of attack in this fashion.)<BR>
<BR>
Under '98 it's Control Panel / Add Remove Programs / Windows Setup /<BR>
Accessories / Windows Scripting Host.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, while we Mac, Linux and all three OS2 users in the world are crowing<BR>
about this latest blow to the Windows World, in truth, this _could_ be<BR>
done on just about any platform. <BR>
<BR>
It wouldn't be hard, for example, to write an Applescript to do at least<BR>
some of the damage that ILOVEYOU does, and trivial under Linux. Of course,<BR>
no Mac e-mail program I know of automatically executes Applescripts, and<BR>
anyone dumb enough to execute strange sh scripts as root on their linux<BR>
box really deserves what they get. I assume that OS2's scripting language<BR>
(REXX, I believe, right, Eris?) has similar safeguards.<BR>
<BR>
Looking at the Applescript dictionary for Netscape (4.06, at least) for<BR>
example, it doesn't look like access to the addressbook is scriptable.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 23:16:54 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Tranquilliser ammunition<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> The tranq used IMTU is a highly evolved crystiline anesthetic, which in the<BR>
> bloodstream, acts as it's own buffer.  Regardless of the titre, the amount<BR>
> of tranq that is bio-available is fixed.<BR>
><BR>
So despite the administered dose, the amount of active drug is fixed?<BR>
This might only be possible if the substance was in an open buffering<BR>
system (e.g. bicarbonate in the body can be transformed<BR>
to carbon dioxide and water, or carbonic acid).<BR>
Otherwise, it looks like you've broken the Law of Mass Action (which is<BR>
basically a statement of chemical equilibrium).<BR>
From a pharmacological standpoint, perhaps other kinetic properties<BR>
like protein binding or volume of distribution would be better things to<BR>
hang your explanation from.<BR>
I suppose that a special formulation (like the matrices used in<BR>
sustained release patches, say) is another option, but it's a little<BR>
difficult to reconcile with the delivery system.<BR>
<BR>
Michael Hughes wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> Well if it produces a reaction like what Spontanious Combustion is alleged<BR>
> to be able to cause then I guess it could exist in reality.<BR>
><BR>
Spontaneous combustion is a misnomer ; clothing is the wick of the<BR>
candle, fatty tissues the fuel. In the right circumstances, intense<BR>
heat can be generated, enough to calcine bone.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony is right, you'd need some sort of nuclear transformation.<BR>
There isn't enough of the relevant elements in the body to even<BR>
justify some sort of nuclear isomerism-gamma ray emission effect<BR>
(so the target doesn't burst into flame, but emits a lethal dose of<BR>
gammas in all directions... oops!)*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Also WHAT ABOUT TRANQ????? What the hell does it do?<BR>
><BR>
Real-world 'tranquillisers' are high potency narcotic analgesics +/-<BR>
benzodiazepines or barbiturates. Etorphine (trade name 'Immobilon' is<BR>
the most potent narcotic known - on the order of 10000X morphine on a<BR>
mass basis!)<BR>
<BR>
This is what you all seem to be talking about rather than 'major'<BR>
and 'minor' tranquillisers (antipsychotics like chlorpromazine and<BR>
the benzodiazepines, respectively).<BR>
<BR>
Etorphine produces unconsciousness via direct higher central actions as<BR>
well as depressing the respiratory centre. Some degree<BR>
of muscle rigidity is not uncommon with any large dose of narcotic,<BR>
especially of the chest wall.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with using such agents on people is that unlike most<BR>
other mammals, humans will obstruct their airways and suffocate<BR>
quite readily - the usual mode of death from a narcotic overdose.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
- ---------------<BR>
* - I'm considering the idea that 'meson' weapons are really named<BR>
after Bob Meson ; the actual effect is gamma emission via the<BR>
stimulated transient induction of nuclear isomers in the denser bits of<BR>
the target. [Rare earth elements like lanthanum have several nuclear<BR>
isomers which might be energetic enough for it to<BR>
have a military application].<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 06:54:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Faster and faster<BR>
<BR>
Just walk into your FLGS and lay down your green.  If they don't have<BR>
it, ask them to order a few.  They sell very well :-)<BR>
<BR>
- --- Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:<BR>
> At 10:19 AM -0700 5/5/00, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> Anyone know if they'll be easier to buy?  I never figured out Marc's<BR>
> web site...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 11:22:33 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 12:08 AM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
<BR>
That's what used to be said about the Web until Mosaic, desktops until <BR>
Apple, and computers in general until someone else.  I see no reason why <BR>
graphics can't be a part of e-mail, as long as someone can still read your <BR>
mail without them (I feel the same way about the Web...).<BR>
<BR>
>*certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
<BR>
That I'll certainly buy.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2402<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2403</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2403<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ordering CT Reprints Online (was Re: Faster and faster)<BR>
Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
test: please ignore<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
Re: (NYPD 5500 AD) Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Mesoncannon<BR>
Landgrab: Yori<BR>
Re: test: please ignore<BR>
RE: The Creature from Aliens...<BR>
Difference between European SF series and US ones<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
[BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 11:24:10 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ordering CT Reprints Online (was Re: Faster and faster)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:23 AM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Take the link on Marc's site to Paypal and register a credit card. You'll <BR>
>get $5 in your account and so will Marc. Then use paypal to send Marc the <BR>
>money for the order (farfuture@aol.com) and include your name, address and <BR>
>what you're buying in the note.  I kept two browsers open while I was <BR>
>doing this, one set to Marc's order form and one for Paypal. That way I <BR>
>could make sure I had the numbers right when I put them in the note.<BR>
><BR>
>I placed an order yesterday, so we'll see if it works. <g><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I did this earlier this week, and he replied affirmatively, so it <BR>
seems to work...  I love PayPal...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 11:25:46 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:11 AM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Finding "meat tolerant" K'kree will be a problem though.<BR>
<BR>
Nah, just ask the Hivers for some.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 12:28:44 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:11 AM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
> > _K'kree:_  Your best fit is into our Mounted unit, which includes<BR>
> > in its duties patrolling the City's parks.  Tolerance for the<BR>
> > scent of meat and for crowds _is_ absolutely essential, as you<BR>
> > may be occasionally called upon for crowd control.<BR>
><BR>
>*Crowds* won't bother a K'kree. But *never* assign one to a late night<BR>
>patrol  beat in the warehouse district or any other post where there<BR>
>aren't lots of sophonts around.<BR>
><BR>
>Finding "meat tolerant" K'kree will be a problem though.<BR>
<BR>
That's what the Hivers are for...<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net<BR>
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
      may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 11:06:42 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: test: please ignore<BR>
<BR>
Ignore this message, please.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 12:45:56 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
On 05/06/00 at 11:22 AM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:08 AM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
<BR>
>That's what used to be said about the Web until Mosaic, desktops until <BR>
>Apple, and computers in general until someone else.  I see no reason why <BR>
>graphics can't be a part of e-mail, as long as someone can still read<BR>
>your  mail without them (I feel the same way about the Web...).<BR>
<BR>
Bloat.  Take a look at the difference in size of a simple text email and one that has been "fancied" up with colors, multiple fonts, graphics...not to mention animations.  Then add the two together and shove it down the pipe.  Bloat, plain and simiple.<BR>
<BR>
HTML, itself, isn't all that bad compared to some formats (doc comes to mind). Besides the web isn't a push product, you go to sites and *ask* to receive the page. At well designed sites,  you can even choose whether you want the graphics rich verison or an alternative before it's sent down the pipe to you.  Not so with email.<BR>
<BR>
As for desktops...<g>...you're talking to an old command line guy.  Okay, it appears people want pretty pictures on their screens and are willing to pay for the hardware to put it there, fine.  Doesn' t  mean I can't grumble about it.<BR>
<BR>
For email there is a place for graphics and rich text...occasionally. The occasions are rare, though, and any email client that lards up *all* email messages with bloat, whether it's called for or not, is a royal pain. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.<BR>
<BR>
>>*certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
<BR>
>That I'll certainly buy.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 12:25:22 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
On 05/06/00 at 06:16 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Yes, it requires a mail program that will run Visual Basic.  Just<BR>
>> make sure your email clients don't automatically launch executables.<BR>
>> I think what got so many people is that Outlook *defaults* to<BR>
>> automatic execution, and many folks don't even know how to change<BR>
>> that.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
>> *certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Eris,<BR>
>>     happily practicing safe computing with OS/2, Linux and properly<BR>
>>     neutered Windows<BR>
<BR>
>You can also turn off Windows Scripting Host which is the root cause of<BR>
>the problem. (this will prevent any sort of attack in this fashion.)<BR>
<BR>
>Under '98 it's Control Panel / Add Remove Programs / Windows Setup /<BR>
>Accessories / Windows Scripting Host.<BR>
<BR>
Yep.<BR>
<BR>
>FWIW, while we Mac, Linux and all three OS2 users in the world are<BR>
>crowing about this latest blow to the Windows World, in truth, this<BR>
>_could_ be done on just about any platform. <BR>
<BR>
Us old timers remember the Cornell Worm that went through Darpanet and did millions of dollars worth of damage on Unix systems. Sure, it *can* be done on an system that accepts input from outside sources, but *most* sysem software is less "friendly" to worms than Windows seems to be.<BR>
<BR>
>It wouldn't be hard, for example, to write an Applescript to do at least<BR>
>some of the damage that ILOVEYOU does, and trivial under Linux. Of<BR>
>course, no Mac e-mail program I know of automatically executes<BR>
>Applescripts, and anyone dumb enough to execute strange sh scripts as<BR>
>root on their linux box really deserves what they get. I assume that<BR>
>OS2's scripting language (REXX, I believe, right, Eris?) has similar<BR>
>safeguards.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, that's right. My point wasn't to to slam MS, well not that entirely ;-), it was to point out that people need to be careful about what they let automatically execute on their systems.   <BR>
<BR>
>Looking at the Applescript dictionary for Netscape (4.06, at least) for<BR>
>example, it doesn't look like access to the addressbook is scriptable.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not opposed to scripting tools that can access addressbooks, write to your disk, even forward emails. However, if they can, then they can do harm and everyone needs to be aware.  <BR>
<BR>
Not to start a anti-MS discussion, but those guys are smart enough to *know* all this, yet they still make automatically launching potentially dangerous scripts the default. <sigh>  They could have at least made the default to always ask the user.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:56:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:08 AM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
><BR>
> That's what used to be said about the Web until Mosaic, desktops until <BR>
> Apple, and computers in general until someone else.  I see no reason why <BR>
> graphics can't be a part of e-mail, as long as someone can still read your <BR>
> mail without them (I feel the same way about the Web...).<BR>
><BR>
>>*certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
><BR>
> That I'll certainly buy.<BR>
<BR>
Automatic execution *is* bad. What's as bad or worse was MS deciding to<BR>
use Visual Basic as the "macro" language in all their products WITHOUT<BR>
ADDING ANY SAFEGUARDS!<BR>
<BR>
While it can be handy to have a full fledged programming language as<BR>
your script/macro language, there's such a thing as being *too*<BR>
powerful for the job. The file and directory tools included *beg* for<BR>
someone to write a virus.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:49:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 6 May 2000 eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 05/05/00 at 07:49 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> It's real - I know of at least one major UK company whose system<BR>
>>> was taken down by it - I believe it requires a mail program which<BR>
>>> will run Visual Basic. Fortunately our Firewall at work took it<BR>
>>> out.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes, it requires a mail program that will run Visual Basic.  Just<BR>
>> make sure your email clients don't automatically launch executables.<BR>
>> I think what got so many people is that Outlook *defaults* to<BR>
>> automatic execution, and many folks don't even know how to change<BR>
>> that.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics and<BR>
>> *certainly* not automatically executing attachments.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Eris,<BR>
>>     happily practicing safe computing with OS/2, Linux and properly<BR>
>>     neutered Windows<BR>
><BR>
> You can also turn off Windows Scripting Host which is the root cause of<BR>
> the problem. (this will prevent any sort of attack in this fashion.)<BR>
><BR>
> Under '98 it's Control Panel / Add Remove Programs / Windows Setup /<BR>
> Accessories / Windows Scripting Host.<BR>
><BR>
> FWIW, while we Mac, Linux and all three OS2 users in the world are crowing<BR>
> about this latest blow to the Windows World, in truth, this _could_ be<BR>
> done on just about any platform. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but I *personally* know more than 3 OS/2 users. And there are<BR>
enough that IBM has announced a new support program to support OS/2<BR>
"indefinitely". And they expect to make money off of it at *$200/year*!<BR>
<BR>
> It wouldn't be hard, for example, to write an Applescript to do at least<BR>
> some of the damage that ILOVEYOU does, and trivial under Linux. Of course,<BR>
> no Mac e-mail program I know of automatically executes Applescripts, and<BR>
> anyone dumb enough to execute strange sh scripts as root on their linux<BR>
> box really deserves what they get. I assume that OS2's scripting language<BR>
> (REXX, I believe, right, Eris?) has similar safeguards.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know when you figure out how to make *my* mail software do it<BR>
(hint, it's written in Turbo Pascal, and runs under DR-DOS). <BR>
<BR>
It's gotten to the point that I've told friends to send email to a<BR>
little used address here if they think they've got an email virus<BR>
infestation. <BR>
<BR>
I can look over the "attachment", and decode it without executing it.<BR>
That's what I've done the 3 or 4 times someone has sent me mail<BR>
infected with HAPPY99.EXE. Want a copy? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:59:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:11 AM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>Finding "meat tolerant" K'kree will be a problem though.<BR>
><BR>
> Nah, just ask the Hivers for some.<BR>
<BR>
<sound of palm hitting forehead><BR>
<BR>
Doh!<BR>
<BR>
Hire the Hivers to work at the Academy! Just keep an eye on them to try<BR>
to avoid manipulations *other* than the one(s) you are paying them for.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 14:22:14 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (NYPD 5500 AD) Re: OT: Farscape RPG?<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 06 May 2000 21:59:24 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>O.K. We have what race get majorities in which departments...what crimes are we<BR>
>tracing?<BR>
><BR>
>Also...what is the show title?<BR>
><BR>
>Rob<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Law & Order: Special Aliens Unit<BR>
SolSec: Life on the Street<BR>
Starsky and Eneri  (They ride around in a red Grav Speeder with a<BR>
white stripe down the side)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 14:24:33 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Scarcity of Resources (was Cool, Nasa images)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 May 2000 18:33:39 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Cool, Nasa images a main belt asteroid<BR>
>><BR>
>> Yea but will I be able to get a decent cup of Coffee?<BR>
>><BR>
>> >>> <KenRoney@aol.com> 05/05/00 02:40PM >>><BR>
><BR>
><stuff snipped><BR>
><BR>
>>We<BR>
>> today tend to think in terms of scarcity of resources.  In the Traveller<BR>
>> universe, (as Jerry Pournelle once wrote) it's raining soup and all that<BR>
>is<BR>
>> needed are good buckets to catch it all in.<BR>
><BR>
>Umm, if we want those small, underpopulated mining colonies (like, say, all<BR>
>those Lo-pop worlds in the 3I), then we have to start waving our hands and<BR>
>explaining why this isn't true.<BR>
<BR>
An emperor centuries ago contracted some hivers to manipulate the<BR>
imperium so every world had *something* to trade.<BR>
<BR>
Or not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 12:30:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On 05/06/00 at 11:22 AM,  Juliean Galak said:<BR>
><BR>
>>>Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics<BR>
>>><BR>
>>That's what used to be said about the Web until Mosaic, desktops until<BR>
Apple, and computers in general until someone else.  I see no reason why<BR>
graphics can't be a part of e-mail, as long as someone can still read your<BR>
mail without them (I feel the same way about the Web...).<BR>
>><BR>
Lynx user?<BR>
<BR>
>Bloat.  Take a look at the difference in size of a simple text email and<BR>
one that has been "fancied" up with colors, multiple fonts, graphics...not<BR>
to mention animations.  Then add the two together and shove it down the<BR>
pipe.  Bloat, plain and simiple.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This *is* Kiri speaking.  I hate "rich text" email as much as the rest of<BR>
you, really I do.  But somewhere the point has been lost that until I find<BR>
another email client in which it is EASY to use both Japanese and English<BR>
and I can switch back and forth in the same mail with one click, I am stuck<BR>
with Outlook.   I loathe Microsoft too.  And I hate people who use<BR>
"stationery" and turn my blue screen brilliant white, which hurts my eyes.<BR>
However, I am not a monolingual person and I need to be able to do what I do<BR>
with my email.<BR>
<BR>
>As for desktops...<g>...you're talking to an old command line guy.  Okay,<BR>
it appears people want pretty pictures on their screens and are willing to<BR>
pay for the hardware to put it there, fine.  Doesn' t  mean I can't grumble<BR>
about it.<BR>
><BR>
I like pictures too, but I miss the commandline.  I used to type upward of<BR>
12 hours a day but I never had an RSI in my life until mice/trackballs<BR>
became part of my life in 1995 whether I wanted them around or not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now I have serious injuries, but I am a writer, dammit!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:56:53 +0200<BR>
From: Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
Subject: Mesoncannon<BR>
<BR>
>* - I'm considering the idea that 'meson' weapons are really named<BR>
>after Bob Meson ; the actual effect is gamma emission via the<BR>
>stimulated transient induction of nuclear isomers in the denser<BR>
>bits of the target. [Rare earth elements like lanthanum have<BR>
>several nuclear isomers which might be energetic enough for it to<BR>
>have a military application].<BR>
<BR>
That might be a good idea. I always wondered how a mesoncannon cut<BR>
work with mesons, unless its power much more higher than in the<BR>
books.<BR>
<BR>
Excuse my poor english.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
I'm just a happy chicken from a backwood asteroid.<BR>
gaack...<BR>
ICQ UIN 55009348<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:11:32 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab: Yori<BR>
<BR>
I've now completed the first draft of the write-up of Yori/Regina<BR>
for the TML Landgrab.  Because it includes a map I have posted it<BR>
to the StuffOnline website rather than post it here.  The url is:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/yori/yori.html<BR>
<BR>
Although the write-up is  new  it  is  based  on  campaign  notes<BR>
reaching back over the past 15 years or more.  As  such  it  does<BR>
*not* use or incorporate any of the new GT stuff ... and may even<BR>
contradict minor points in GT products like BtC.  (However, I was<BR>
able to slip in the "Black Darter" ... a Yorian animal  described<BR>
in the online JTAS.)<BR>
<BR>
Because  it  is  from  my  campaign  it  uses  MT  rules   (where<BR>
applicable) and is set in CT times.  Although it is IMTU  I  have<BR>
tried to match all (non-GT) sources I could find.  This  includes<BR>
an apparent drop in TL from early CT sources compared  with  late<BR>
CT and MT sources.  Other info comes from TNE, 5FW boardgame, and<BR>
Rob Eaglestone's trade rules.<BR>
<BR>
In this draft there are  *no*  notes  on  the  Research  Station,<BR>
"sailing (or  swimming)  in  Gamelon",  or  on  any  of  the  key<BR>
personalities (including the only Vargr on planet  being  one  of<BR>
the senior "Advisors"), or the TO&E for  the  planetary  militia,<BR>
etc.  I may do that later.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I hope you like it.  Comments please.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
(ps: If printing the web pages have "print background colours and<BR>
images" turned on or you wont get the boxes.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:03:03 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: test: please ignore<BR>
<BR>
At 19:06 06.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Ignore this message, please.<BR>
<BR>
Too late ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:47:28 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Creature from Aliens...<BR>
<BR>
Jason Kemp asked about the Alien.<BR>
<BR>
- - It was in JTAS4.<BR>
- - The write-up was by Chuck Kallenbach III<BR>
- - It was called the "Reticulan Parasite"<BR>
- - It was from Zeta 2 in the Spinward Marches (no starport, no gas<BR>
  giant, no hydrosphere ... so don't go there without enough fuel<BR>
  to leave!)<BR>
- - It was written before the 2nd movie so has no  mention  of  the<BR>
  queen ... and contradicts facts given in movie 2+.<BR>
<BR>
In CT terms ...<BR>
<BR>
    Animal     Weight   Hits    Armor    Weapons<BR>
100 Eggs          3kg    0/5    jack     0 none       A0 F0 S0<BR>
100 Larvae       200g    1/2    none     3 none       A0 F7 S0.5<BR>
  1 Parasite      2kg    0/8    jack     special      A0 F0 S0<BR>
  1 Parasite      6kg    9/4    jack     12 teeth     A0 F0 S3<BR>
  1 Parasite    120kg   30/15   battle   9 teeth      A0 F0 S3<BR>
                                         6 teeth-1<BR>
                                         12 stinger<BR>
                                         8 claws<BR>
Attacks if surprised; flees if surprised<BR>
Acid blood inflicts 100-600 points of damage per turn<BR>
<BR>
(The 3 different parasites are the "face-hugger", "chest-buster",<BR>
and "adult".)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:52:05 +0200<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: Difference between European SF series and US ones<BR>
<BR>
To give the boring bit first:<BR>
Government:<BR>
- - European: frightening high tech dictatorships susuming individual rights<BR>
in favour of a restricted few. Even the 'good' guys governmetn is<BR>
untrustworthy;<BR>
- - American: Abalance between 'good' guys and 'bad 'guys'. Aliens/evil human<BR>
civilisations fighting the equivalent of the far future USofA<BR>
<BR>
Technology:<BR>
- - European: usually the tool of repression or manipulation. A fine balance<BR>
between the curse of a society where technology dominates the individual and<BR>
how these individuals cope with it. European future technology also appears<BR>
unpleasant/unfriendly;<BR>
- - American: technology is the religion of the future, if others are more<BR>
advanced this is a cause for admiration.<BR>
<BR>
Plot philosophies:<BR>
- - European: Individuals versus the government<BR>
- - American: Good versus Evil<BR>
<BR>
Or put otherwise (I am just using Blake 7 vz ST examples but I think you'll<BR>
get the picture):<BR>
<BR>
American:<BR>
- - Picard: Lay in a course for the Domani system. Computer; Estimated time of<BR>
arrival?<BR>
- - Computer: 5 days 4 hours 25 minutes and 17 seconds<BR>
<BR>
European<BR>
- - Blake: Zen; lay in a course for the planet Auranar. Estimated time of<BR>
arrival<BR>
- - Zen (the ship computer- JW) : That depends on speed as yet unspecified<BR>
<BR>
American:<BR>
- - Computer: Warning! An explosive device has been detected in section 54,<BR>
deck 17.<BR>
<BR>
European:<BR>
- - Zen: Warning! Sensors detect an unknown device, placed by Cally (...) near<BR>
vital ship systems.<BR>
- - Blake: Where Zen, where?<BR>
- - Zen: Interference with crew activities is not permitted.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
European:<BR>
- - Avon: Orac how much weight must we still lose to be able to achieve escape<BR>
velocity with the shuttle?<BR>
- - Orac (supercomputer) approximately 73 kilos.<BR>
- - Avon: What weighs 73 kilos?<BR>
- - Orac: Villa weighs 79 Kilos...<BR>
<BR>
(I am pretty sure this never happened on STNG but here's my guess how it<BR>
would go:)<BR>
<BR>
American:<BR>
- - Riker: Mr Data how much more thrust do we need to develop to achieve<BR>
escape velocity?<BR>
- - Data: Prelimary calculations seem to indicate the need for a 1.3% higher<BR>
thrust rate.<BR>
- - Riker: Options Mr Data?<BR>
- - Data: We could attempt to cause a feedback loop in the shuttles shield<BR>
relays thereby increasing thrust efficiency by possibly 1.2-1.5%<BR>
- - Riker: Wesley, Data get started at once.<BR>
<BR>
(Any sane person would have thrown Wesley out of course :-)<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 16:02:49 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
On 05/06/00 at 12:30 PM,  "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>This *is* Kiri speaking.  I hate "rich text" email as much as the rest of<BR>
>you, really I do.  But somewhere the point has been lost that until I<BR>
>find another email client in which it is EASY to use both Japanese and<BR>
>English and I can switch back and forth in the same mail with one click,<BR>
>I am stuck with Outlook.   I loathe Microsoft too.  And I hate people who<BR>
>use "stationery" and turn my blue screen brilliant white, which hurts my<BR>
>eyes. However, I am not a monolingual person and I need to be able to do<BR>
>what I do with my email.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have an answer for switching back and forth in the same message, but I'll ask around.  Personally, it seems like an awful lot of shaft for so little ore, but then I *am* monolingual...so MMDV.<BR>
<BR>
>>As for desktops...<g>...you're talking to an old command line guy.  Okay,<BR>
>it appears people want pretty pictures on their screens and are willing<BR>
>to pay for the hardware to put it there, fine.  Doesn' t  mean I can't<BR>
>grumble about it.<BR>
<BR>
>I like pictures too, but I miss the commandline.  I used to type upward<BR>
>of 12 hours a day but I never had an RSI in my life until mice/trackballs<BR>
>became part of my life in 1995 whether I wanted them around or not.<BR>
<BR>
>Now I have serious injuries, but I am a writer, dammit!<BR>
<BR>
The command line is still out there waiting for you. <g> <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:05:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
We'd like to sound the water out here. With the release of '101 <BR>
Patrons' and 'At Close Quarters' we have cleared out immediate <BR>
planned releases (we have a number of projects underway, but nothing <BR>
that will appear in the next month or so). We shipped a large number <BR>
of the two BITS adventures to Steve Jackson Games, Inc, and as a <BR>
result aren't certain how US sales have gone so far.<BR>
<BR>
Rather than commit ourselves to the time and effort of producing <BR>
something that won't sell, we'd like to know the following -<BR>
<BR>
1) Would you like to see more adventures? Did you like the two we <BR>
have released? Did you buy them?<BR>
<BR>
2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks? What <BR>
format would you prefer? Do you want a focus on background or <BR>
adventures? For example, would you like to see a detailed sector <BR>
worked up by BITS?<BR>
<BR>
We haven't had a lot of feedback recently, so would appreciate it if <BR>
you let us know how we're doing. Bear in mind we released 'SpaceDogs' <BR>
and 'The Khiidkar Incident' because of the TML's demands for <BR>
adventures - let us know what you feel about them, so we can give you <BR>
what you want!<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:59:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Today, at the Dudley Bug Ball convention I saw the first copies of <BR>
101 Patrons. This compilation of plot seeds for any edition of <BR>
Traveller sports another Jesse DeGraff cover, and looks gorgeous. <BR>
I'll hopefully have scans and information up on the website tomorrow.<BR>
<BR>
The cover depicts a scout/courier launching from a world, with a <BR>
shadowed figure outlined in the stars in the backdrop. (Jesse, I <BR>
think it looks excellent). Construction is once again the usual BITS <BR>
style (A5, plastic cover) but printing quality is up with the new <BR>
printer we have (at 1200 dpi now). As a result, the text is a lot <BR>
crisper and cleaner.<BR>
<BR>
And, with more good news,  I can confirm that Steve Jackson Games, <BR>
Inc have re-ordered the 101 Books which are currently out of stock at <BR>
Warehouse 23, and  copies of 'At Close Quarters' and '101 Patrons' <BR>
are set to go in the next order. Andy Lilly is compiling the order at <BR>
BITS HQ and hopefully you should see the products in the next month <BR>
or so. We'll keep you posted!<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2403<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2404</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2404<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Landgrab: Yori<BR>
RE: OT! Waaaay OT! For all the trek watchers<BR>
Ancients and Human Diaspora<BR>
Re: Difference between European SF series and US ones<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: [BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
RE: Weird requests....<BR>
Request for Beat testers<BR>
Re: Copyright question<BR>
RE: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: OT! Waaaay OT! For all the trek watchers<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
RE: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
A REQUEST FOR BMAC'S MILITARY COMBAT SYSTEM<BR>
Quips and Quotes<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 14:09:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Yori<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 1:11 PM, Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, I hope you like it.  Comments please.<BR>
<BR>
I love it, real sharp looking layout.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:15:41 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT! Waaaay OT! For all the trek watchers<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> pre-history of Trek: Either just before or just after (I'm not<BR>
> sure) the founding of the Federation.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm ... aka "Star Trek: Milieu 0"?<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't there a hoax a few years ago about Imperium Game's holding<BR>
company (Sweetpea?) being bought out  by  Paramount?  JMS  always<BR>
claimed that Paramount ripped-off his B5 concept to make DS9  ...<BR>
maybe we'll see something similar.<BR>
<BR>
- - Star Trek: Pocket Empires<BR>
- - Star Trek: First Survey<BR>
- - Star Trek: Anomalies (Brannon Braga'd love this one)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:08:46 +0200<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: Ancients and Human Diaspora<BR>
<BR>
If you are looking for ideas on what the effect of human migration to alien<BR>
planets might be you would enjoy Jack Vance. His brand of SF is not the<BR>
Niven/Asimov technology driven one but a look at the effects of culture and<BR>
human nature when unleashed unto space.<BR>
<BR>
It has been said his books are essays in human xenology (a form of cultural<BR>
anthropology of the future). He excells in creating worlds in which local<BR>
circumstances of the planet, the basic mindset of the colonists or some<BR>
freak development influenced the human society on that planet. Sometimes<BR>
this will go as far as creatinf new human sub-species more often the<BR>
differences are more along the lines of the Vilani versus Imperial versus<BR>
Zhodani. To given an example from The 4th book of the Demon Prince series<BR>
(The book of dreams):<BR>
<BR>
'From Civilised Ideas and Civilised worlds by Michael Yeaton:<BR>
<BR>
As the student reflects upon the development of the newly settled worlds<BR>
(...). The ideal program by which each society is shaped, by some as yet<BR>
unenunciated law of conduct, begins to gnerate its own obverse, or opposite<BR>
, impulse, which in due course overcomes the original scheme. Human<BR>
perversity? The malice if Fate? Who can say? (...) For instance, consider<BR>
the world "New Concept".<BR>
<BR>
<snip as story goes onto main characters and leaves the little pseudo<BR>
scientific chapter intro><BR>
<BR>
Gersen: " I noticed the classical ruins out near the space terminal. Do they<BR>
represent the "New Concept"?<BR>
Mayneth:"The original structures were the gift of a mad philantropist. The<BR>
"New Concept" was dietary - vegetarianism, in fact, mixed with stints of<BR>
meditation. For 50 years the settlers liven in the great temple of Organic<BR>
Unity. They ate alfalfa, sprouts, collared greens and odd bits of native<BR>
vegetation. The human form is wonderfully adaptable. The settlers adapted<BR>
all too well, and there they are now-" Mayneth pointed to the pack of lank<BR>
animals grazing under the thicket "- having their lunch.'<BR>
<BR>
This was one of the more extreme examples and also coloured by Vance's<BR>
obvious dislike of woolyheaded vegetarians (my apologies to all<BR>
concerned).Neverthelss his books usually contains dozens of such world<BR>
snippets sometimes very detailed sometimes just touched upon. Some are<BR>
convincing and have an internal logic some - as the above - are not but they<BR>
remain alot of fun.<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 07:21:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Difference between European SF series and US ones<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
> Subject: Difference between European SF series and US ones<BR>
<BR>
> European:<BR>
> - - Avon: Orac how much weight must we still lose to be able to achieve<BR>
escape<BR>
> velocity with the shuttle?<BR>
> - - Orac (supercomputer) approximately 73 kilos.<BR>
> - - Avon: What weighs 73 kilos?<BR>
> - - Orac: Villa weighs 79 Kilos...<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget, Villa knew this too ... and was hiding in a cupboard, and<BR>
anything that opened the door was going to get it's head blown off.<BR>
<BR>
One thing I loved about Blakes 7 was their willingness to kill major<BR>
characters. Not only Vila, but also the audience, knew that there was a very<BR>
real risk of Vila's body going out the airlock ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 15:03:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 2:05 PM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> 2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks?<BR>
<BR>
I would like to see more like 101 Lifeforms, perhaps more focused on a class<BR>
of lifeforms like Sophonts, Domestics, or even simply Plants. 101 Sophonts<BR>
could include proto- and pseudo-sapients, geneered variants, etc. Another<BR>
idea is 101 Locations, with write-ups on places of interest, common<BR>
settings, miscellaneous facilities. I have yet to buy one of the adventures,<BR>
as I rarely use such supplements, but a good way to entice me would be<BR>
including maps, deckplans, diagrams, and handout type material. Still, I'll<BR>
likely buy more of your other products before getting adventures, as I tend<BR>
to arbitrate matrix campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 13:45:36 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> So the absolute *best* you can do is a pair of "wings" one on each side<BR>
> of the ship. <BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better? <BR>
(Something like this:)<BR>
<BR>
    I<BR>
- --O--<BR>
    I<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:08:53 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> 1) Would you like to see more adventures? Did you like the two we <BR>
> have released? Did you buy them?<BR>
<BR>
Bought them, read them, liked them, haven't played them (yet, probably this<BR>
summer).<BR>
<BR>
More adventures would be a Good Thing, especially if they are designed in such<BR>
a way as to show off different parts of the Traveller Universe. Playing a few<BR>
such adventures as single-shot scenarios before starting a campaign with<BR>
players new to Traveller (or any other system/setting) is a great thing to do.<BR>
<BR>
The first two showed us noble intrigue and the status of aliens in the<BR>
Imperium. How about the following basic concepts?<BR>
<BR>
* Scouts/exploration/survey/artifact/mystery<BR>
<BR>
* Top Gun (fighter pilots)<BR>
<BR>
* Belter PCs, pirates arrive and take control of base, belters unexpectedly<BR>
strike back at the pirates (lead by PCs)<BR>
<BR>
I think those four concepts show off other important parts of the Traveller<BR>
universe. Any important parts that I've missed?<BR>
<BR>
> 2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks? What <BR>
> format would you prefer? Do you want a focus on background or <BR>
> adventures? For example, would you like to see a detailed sector <BR>
> worked up by BITS?<BR>
<BR>
A sector workup might be nice (at least I would buy it), but perhaps better yet<BR>
would be a book with an expanded timeline, describing important events and<BR>
periods in the history of humaniti.<BR>
<BR>
In general, published adventures are great for introduction to a game<BR>
system/setting. When you've understood the environment, all you need is<BR>
probably some general information to work from. In other words, both background<BR>
and adventures are good, but for different types of people.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:21:00 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> The cover depicts a scout/courier launching from a world, with a <BR>
> shadowed figure outlined in the stars in the backdrop. (Jesse, I <BR>
> think it looks excellent).<BR>
<BR>
Will this picture be available for viewing on Jesse's page?  *hint*<BR>
<BR>
> And, with more good news,  I can confirm that Steve Jackson Games, <BR>
> Inc have re-ordered the 101 Books which are currently out of stock at <BR>
> Warehouse 23, and  copies of 'At Close Quarters' and '101 Patrons' <BR>
> are set to go in the next order. Andy Lilly is compiling the order at <BR>
> BITS HQ and hopefully you should see the products in the next month <BR>
> or so. We'll keep you posted!<BR>
<BR>
Great! I'll order them as soon as it becomes possible. Please notify the list<BR>
when this happens.<BR>
<BR>
I just got another product idea. Since I've sent that post already, I'll add it<BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
How about another book like ACQ, but dealing with spaceship combat (including<BR>
sensor operation and such things)?<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:27:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
>Hey...<BR>
><BR>
>I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
>by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
>noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
>universe.....<BR>
><BR>
>One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. A lot of record stores and many gift shops have the "LaserLight" line<BR>
of discount CDs. Last I checked they are usually around $5-$7, U.S. They<BR>
have a series of CDs which are the collected sounds of radio-telescopes. The<BR>
name of the series escapes me (I want to say "Symphonies of the Planets" or<BR>
"Symphonies of the Universe", but I'm not sure), but I have one laying<BR>
around. If I can find it, I'll post in to the list.<BR>
<BR>
Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 12:01:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Request for Beat testers<BR>
<BR>
I am currently developing a Delphi program for windows to design High <BR>
Guard ships as part of my degree.  It is an iterative development project <BR>
(the iteration plan is below). I need three (and only three) people who know <BR>
the High Guard system to help with beta testing each iteration. If anybody <BR>
is interested in help, could they please e-mail off list me at<BR>
<ajm232@student.chchpoly.ac.nz> or<BR>
<a.vallance@netacces.co.nz>.<BR>
Thank you<BR>
<BR>
Iteration plan<BR>
Iteration 1 - Main form, global variables and Hull design<BR>
Iteration 2 - Iteration 1 plus engineering design<BR>
Iteration 3 - Iteration 2 plus fuel design<BR>
Iteration 4 - Iteration 3 plus bridge and computer<BR>
Iteration 5 - Iteration 4 plus weapons<BR>
Iteration 6 - Iteration 5 plus screens<BR>
Iteration 7 - Iteration 6 plus carried craft<BR>
Iteration 8 - Iteration 7 plus crew and accommodations<BR>
Iteration 9 - Iteration 8 plus save and export<BR>
Iteration 10 - Final release<BR>
<BR>
At the moment, each iteration is expected to require 1 week.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:07:30 -0400<BR>
From: Traveller@serve.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Copyright question<BR>
<BR>
At 12:40 pm 5/4/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Disclaimer:  I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.  If you<BR>
>have a real need for a lawyer, go find one.  You can't<BR>
>actually rely on what I say, which is only for informational<BR>
>purposes.<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC, the IG copyrights reverted to MM on the dissolution<BR>
>of that company.  You have essentially created a "derivative"<BR>
>work, and copied directly whatever portions haven't been<BR>
>modified.  That is an infringement of the copyright.<BR>
<BR>
	Just happened to catch this on one of my infrequent forays through the TML<BR>
... I'm guessing it would definitely take a lawyer to settle this one. The<BR>
contract that would have given IG copyright to FF&S2 was never<BR>
satisfactorily completed--Guy Garnett got paid (50 cents on the dollar, I<BR>
think), but I'm still short.<BR>
<BR>
	For what it's worth, ask Marc (farfuture@aol.com) and I don't expect to<BR>
have trouble with whatever he wants.<BR>
<BR>
	PS: This is the first time in four or five weeks I've even downloaded my<BR>
TML mail. DON'T expect this fluke to be repeated soon ... if life continues<BR>
the way it has, I'll be forced to give up Traveller entirely.<BR>
<BR>
	PPS: Replies you want me to see should go directly to me, as I've skipped<BR>
about 2000 messages already tonight.<BR>
- -- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of the Traveller Apocalypse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 16:16:05 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700<BR>
> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
> Subject: Weird requests....<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey...<BR>
> <BR>
> I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
> by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
> noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
> universe.....<BR>
> <BR>
> One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
><BR>
	Turn you television on to an "empty" channel and tape that with what<BR>
ever equipment you have available. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:23:11 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: OT! Waaaay OT! For all the trek watchers<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> > pre-history of Trek: Either just before or just after (I'm not<BR>
> > sure) the founding of the Federation.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm ... aka "Star Trek: Milieu 0"?<BR>
><BR>
> Wasn't there a hoax a few years ago about Imperium Game's holding<BR>
> company (Sweetpea?) being bought out  by  Paramount?  JMS  always<BR>
> claimed that Paramount ripped-off his B5 concept to make DS9  ...<BR>
> maybe we'll see something similar.<BR>
><BR>
> - Star Trek: Pocket Empires<BR>
> - Star Trek: First Survey<BR>
> - Star Trek: Anomalies (Brannon Braga'd love this one)<BR>
<BR>
Subspace...Is there *anything* it can't do?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 01:15:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 4:08 PM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> A sector workup might be nice (at least I would buy it), but perhaps better<BR>
> yet<BR>
> would be a book with an expanded timeline, describing important events and<BR>
> periods in the history of humaniti.<BR>
<BR>
I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 10:14:27 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: RE: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low replied to Evyn MacDude:<BR>
> > I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
> > by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
> > noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
> > universe.....<BR>
> > <BR>
> > One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
> ><BR>
> 	Turn you television on to an "empty" channel and tape that with what<BR>
> ever equipment you have available. <BR>
<BR>
"They sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel."<BR>
- - William Gibson, "Neuromancer"<BR>
<BR>
One question (mainly to Evyn, but anyone could answer):<BR>
<BR>
The background sounds you are gathering... how large are the files? I am very<BR>
interested in such sounds. If you have a fast, unlimited-time type connection,<BR>
could you send them to me in some format (mp3 or wav are perfect)?<BR>
<BR>
E-mail me privately if this is the case.<BR>
<BR>
If you found the sounds online somewhere, posting the URLs to the list would be<BR>
very helpful.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 11:44:51 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>1) Would you like to see more adventures? Did you like the two we have <BR>
>released? Did you buy them?<BR>
Yes, id love to see more adventures, even though i didnt buy the first <BR>
ones. I will do so soon, however. (As soon 101 Patrons and ACQ are <BR>
available for mailorder in Europe as well - Im looking forward to that <BR>
package already...)<BR>
<BR>
>2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks? What format <BR>
>would you prefer? Do you want a focus on background or adventures? For <BR>
>example, would you like to see a detailed sector worked up by BITS?<BR>
Hmm, id love to see full detailed sectors, but i think subsector books <BR>
would be better. They allow you to focus more on the individual worlds and <BR>
leave more space to develop each and every one of them. As long as theyll <BR>
contain many possible story-hooks, Ill buy them.<BR>
In adventures, I would like to see many short one-shot adventures that can <BR>
be integrated into campaigns or used to lure new players.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:06:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> So the absolute *best* you can do is a pair of "wings" one on each side<BR>
>> of the ship. <BR>
><BR>
> Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better? <BR>
> (Something like this:)<BR>
><BR>
>     I<BR>
>   --O--<BR>
>     I<BR>
<BR>
Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:15:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700<BR>
>> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>> Subject: Weird requests....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Hey...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
>> by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
>> noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
>> universe.....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
>><BR>
>         Turn you television on to an "empty" channel and tape that with what<BR>
> ever equipment you have available. <BR>
<BR>
Aside from the fact that the "sounds" the telescope gets aren't<BR>
*entirely* random, there's another problem.<BR>
<BR>
Recent TVs don't *do* that on an "empty" channel. Instead they display<BR>
a blue or green screen and *no* sound. Which, btw means that the<BR>
opening of Damnation Alley (the book, not the movie) means something<BR>
completely different to youngsters than it does to us "oldtimers". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 03:29:48 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
<BR>
I need a favor-<BR>
<BR>
Back in the early-mid 80s (somewhere from 83-86) Dragon <BR>
magazine published a CT article on mutants and mutant powers for <BR>
Traveller characters.  I just search my apartment and seem to have <BR>
lost this issue of Dragon.  If anyone has a spare copy of this <BR>
magazine or would be willing to xerox a copy of the article I would <BR>
be most grateful.  I'd also give them a copy of the issue of Shadis <BR>
magazine # 51 with my T4 scenario in it (other compensation is <BR>
also possible).  Does anyone have a copy of this article?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 04:57:17 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: A REQUEST FOR BMAC'S MILITARY COMBAT SYSTEM<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  I'm looking for a copy of Mr. Macintosh's MCS rules.  Anyone there <BR>
can point me to them?<BR>
<BR>
THanks in advance.<BR>
<BR>
JimC<BR>
<BR>
Smile and the world smiles with you.<BR>
<BR>
Growl and you get better service.<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:27:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Quips and Quotes<BR>
<BR>
Some of these are sorta OT but all in all just fun for the list. Please, no<BR>
bashing, they are just here for giggles....If these originally came from the<BR>
TML, I will apologize now. I get so many of them that I forget where they<BR>
came from.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
"AFAIK, I'm a BOFH for continually bashing you with a clue-by-four. OTOH, if<BR>
you would just RTFM every once in a while, my life would suck *much* less."<BR>
<BR>
"A closed mouth gathers no foot."<BR>
<BR>
"Alcohol & calculus don't mix. Never drink & derive."<BR>
<BR>
"And which parallel universe did you crawl out of?"<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid clichs like the plague"<BR>
<BR>
"Blessed are the Geeks, for they shall internet the earth."<BR>
<BR>
"Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue..."<BR>
<BR>
"ERROR: Keyboard not attached. Press F-1 to continue."<BR>
<BR>
"I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?"<BR>
<BR>
"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."<BR>
<BR>
"Obviously, you are incapable of assimilating the extent of my genius."<BR>
<BR>
"Penguins are our friends"<BR>
<BR>
"Preliminary operational tests were inconclusive (the damn thing blew up)"<BR>
<BR>
"Press any key to continue or any other key to quit"<BR>
<BR>
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."<BR>
<BR>
"The box said "Requires Windows 95 or better." So I installed LINUX"<BR>
<BR>
"The universe is a figment of its own imagination."<BR>
<BR>
"We have enough youth. How about a fountain of SMART?"<BR>
<BR>
"We may be alone. We may not be alone. Either way, the thought is<BR>
staggering."<BR>
<BR>
"When the going gets tough, the tough get duct tape."<BR>
<BR>
"<--Your information went data way -->"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:38:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Uuuhhhh, unplug the cable feed and hit your channel changer (not literally<BR>
of course, just the channel up or down button will do.)<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:15 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700<BR>
> >> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
> >> Subject: Weird requests....<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Hey...<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
> >> by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
> >> noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
> >> universe.....<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >         Turn you television on to an "empty" channel and tape that with<BR>
what<BR>
> > ever equipment you have available.<BR>
><BR>
> Aside from the fact that the "sounds" the telescope gets aren't<BR>
> *entirely* random, there's another problem.<BR>
><BR>
> Recent TVs don't *do* that on an "empty" channel. Instead they display<BR>
> a blue or green screen and *no* sound. Which, btw means that the<BR>
> opening of Damnation Alley (the book, not the movie) means something<BR>
> completely different to youngsters than it does to us "oldtimers".<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:40:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
I like the sounds of that too. Speaking of 101 books, I'm looking for a copy<BR>
of the original 101 Robots. Has anybody seen one for sale or have one for<BR>
sale?<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:15 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 4:08 PM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
> I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
> tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 09:24:32 -0400<BR>
From: "Eric & Diane Freitas" <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
>On 05/06/00 at 12:30 PM,  "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>This *is* Kiri speaking.  I hate "rich text" email as much as the rest of<BR>
>>you, really I do.  But somewhere the point has been lost that until I<BR>
>>find another email client in which it is EASY to use both Japanese and<BR>
>>English and I can switch back and forth in the same mail with one click,<BR>
>>I am stuck with Outlook.   I loathe Microsoft too.  And I hate people who<BR>
>>use "stationery" and turn my blue screen brilliant white, which hurts my<BR>
>>eyes. However, I am not a monolingual person and I need to be able to do<BR>
>>what I do with my email.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You might want to try BeOS for that.  It has a nice bilingual system.  I'll<BR>
check it<BR>
out and let you know.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2404<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2405</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/7/00 5:25:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2405<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 09:24:57 -0700<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
Re: SolSec Website<BR>
Re: SolSec Website<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
Re: Powerkill (was Re: Morality of "Heros")<BR>
Liverpool FLGS<BR>
Re: 101 Robots (Was Re: A Question of Products from BITS)<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: Expanded Point Defense rules (repost)<BR>
Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
TL Change<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: TL Change<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 15:32:09 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to design a mass combat system for starships in GT, being<BR>
inspired by a similar system in <BR>
GURPS: Conan. I know, I know, GT Navy will handle this, but since that's<BR>
not on the horizon, we have to do something... and I plan to put the<BR>
final system on my homepage.<BR>
<BR>
My first intention was to compute a vessel overall combat value(VOAV)<BR>
for each participating vessel, add up all those VOAV's for both sides<BR>
and then use a table to determine the outcome of the battle, the time it<BR>
took, the fate of one individual ship on one of the sides, and the fate<BR>
of individuals characters on that particualar ship. I was planning to<BR>
include modificators for the two fleets' commander's strategy<BR>
skills, for particularly cunning or stupid battle plans, surprise etc<BR>
and for the decision of the ndividual ships' crews on how to behave in<BR>
battle (e.g. exceptionally courageous/stupid or extremely careful; that<BR>
would influence VOAV and ship's individual fate: extremely cautious is<BR>
not good for VOAV, but very good for the vessel's survival.).<BR>
<BR>
The problem in doing this for Traveller is that there are weapons which<BR>
are good against certain wepaons, but useless against others (especially<BR>
meson screens and nuclear damper technology comes into mind, but the<BR>
same is true for DR and the various ways it affects laser, missile and<BR>
particle beam damage). This means that while a meson screen may be vital<BR>
in one battle, it can fairly be useless in another.<BR>
<BR>
So if there is anyone who can help me out, possibly with some experience<BR>
with mass combat systems for starships (was there something for<BR>
CT/MT/TNE/T4?), I would really appreciate his or her help...<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:59:08 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
> tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
<BR>
101 history lessons<BR>
<BR>
Written as lecture notes/handouts from Regina university. Each one describing a<BR>
single important event or time period.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, if small comments (like "Booooooring" and "Tonight is the grav-ball<BR>
finals") were added, the book might make a great flavor text for university<BR>
life as well.<BR>
<BR>
How about that idea?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, what happened to the University project?<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 11:15:40 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 6 May 2000 23:06:34 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
>> Subject: Re: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>> So the absolute *best* you can do is a pair of "wings" one on each side<BR>
>>> of the ship. <BR>
>><BR>
>> Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better? <BR>
>> (Something like this:)<BR>
>><BR>
>>     I<BR>
>>   --O--<BR>
>>     I<BR>
><BR>
>Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
>cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
<BR>
How about three wings 120 degrees apart? Where have I seen a ship like<BR>
that? Who needs rhetorical questions?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Thoughts of sex distracted me and now I have to immolate myself to subdue the<BR>
 buzzing in my head!"                 -Tom Servo<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 09:24:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 09:24:57 -0700<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe vanquer@email.msn.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 10:45:35 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
<BR>
  This might be interesting. AFAIC, it also puts to rest the rather<BR>
fantastic rumours/suggestions that SJG should/has wanted to license<BR>
2300 AD from Mr. Sanger. FWIW, it probably pretty much guarantees<BR>
that 2300 AD won't be re-published in print media in the next decade...<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: these are, of course, G:T resource materials in drag :><BR>
<BR>
> /\  Pyramid Update for May 5, 2000<BR>
>/__\ Subscribers login: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/   <BR>
...<BR>
>Upcoming Chat Schedule:  <BR>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>When: Monday 3PM May 8	      Who: David L. Pulver, Sean Punch, and Jon<BR>
>Zeigler<BR>
>Topic: David L. Pulver, Sean Punch and (hopefully) Jon F. Zeigler talk<BR>
>about the GURPS Transhuman Space series, an upcoming line of hard sf world<BR>
>books set in the solar system. Find out what developments have taken place<BR>
>since the last TS chat.<BR>
...<BR>
>------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pyramid.sjgames.com with the<BR>
>message "unsubscribe new-articles".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:57:50 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/7/00 1:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav: these are, of course, G:T resource materials in drag :><BR>
<BR>
Probably not.  TRANSHUMAN SPACE is going to be very non-<BR>
Traveller in flavor.  No FTL.  No aliens, but humanity has diversified<BR>
so much via genetic engineering that there might as well be aliens.<BR>
Cybertechnology.  Nanotechnology.  Lots of robots and powerful<BR>
computers, some of them self-aware.<BR>
<BR>
Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 20:05:08 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: SolSec Website<BR>
<BR>
At 06:36 04.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Greetings all,<BR>
><BR>
>I just turned on the SolSec website <http://solsec.org>.<BR>
<BR>
Just surfed on in: The cover emblem is EVIL. ;-)<BR>
Even though I dont portray the Solomani as Space Nazi, i<BR>
enjoy the concept.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 20:58:01 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: SolSec Website<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 06:36 04.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
> >Greetings all,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I just turned on the SolSec website <http://solsec.org>.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just surfed on in: The cover emblem is EVIL. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I found it a bit too direct. IMHO the fun about the Solomani loons<BR>
is that they are like that at *second* sight. (At first being "they are<BR>
our descendants".)<BR>
<BR>
> Even though I dont portray the Solomani as Space Nazi, i<BR>
> enjoy the concept.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, they *are* the evil Space Nazis (perhaps without the genocide<BR>
aspect). But no one remembers the "original loonies", and most people<BR>
don't realize just what the Solomani Movement really claims.<BR>
<BR>
CU<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:55:49 -0500<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
<BR>
>   This might be interesting. AFAIC, it also puts to rest the rather<BR>
> fantastic rumours/suggestions that SJG should/has wanted to license 2300<BR>
AD from Mr. Sanger. FWIW, it probably pretty much guarantees that 2300 AD<BR>
won't be re-published in print media in the next decade...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That is really strange since Sanger doesn't own 2300 AD :)<BR>
The owners of the game had mentioned last year (or 1998) the possibility of<BR>
some sort of web presence for the 2300 rules, but we<BR>
haven't heard anything else from them lately.<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:00:24 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
- --- Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> I am trying to design a mass combat system for<BR>
> starships in GT, <BR>
<BR>
Not to discourage you, but such a system already<BR>
exists in Compendium II; it was the system that was<BR>
originally in GURPS Space. There are some notes about<BR>
the weapons and such in GT in places. It works pretty<BR>
well; I used it some in pre-GT days.<BR>
<BR>
Allen<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:04:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
I was rolling up a character from Book 7; Merchant<BR>
Princes from my recently accquired Collector's Edition<BR>
Vol. 1, and I ran into a snag. I was creating a Free<BR>
Trader and when it came time for him to test for<BR>
promotion to O4, he needed a Pilot-1. Unfortunatley,<BR>
none of the tables open to Free Traders give Pilot<BR>
skill! is this a legitimate error, or was I doing<BR>
something wrong?<BR>
<BR>
Allen<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 00:49:17 +1200<BR>
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@flat.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Powerkill (was Re: Morality of "Heros")<BR>
<BR>
"Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Take anything the players do, alter the settings,<BR>
>participants and actions until you've managed to<BR>
>retell an entertaining evening of usual gameplay<BR>
>as the worst kind of real-crime sleazeballs and<BR>
>psychos exploitation video.  Is "Powerkill" some kind <BR>
>of moral relatavism propaganda piece?<BR>
<BR>
	I think it's more aimed at highlighting the sorts of characters gamers<BR>
tend to play.  The default RPG character is armed, dangerous, and has few<BR>
compunctions about committing theft, violence or murder to get what s/he/it<BR>
wants.  So where are all the _normal_ people? Why don't we play them? (or<BR>
rather, why do we think that only psychopaths are "interesting"?)<BR>
<BR>
	Or you can just look at it as a good rant against the old-style dungeon<BR>
bash - in whiich case whether you approve or not is going to depend on what<BR>
sort of gaming you prefer...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Powerkill-for-Traveller: The players sail into the major port of a<BR>
third-world country, rob the central bank of its stored gold, and flee into<BR>
international waters...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Idiot/Savant                    http://homepages.flat.net.nz/~mfn-0056<BR>
"Choose pissing off at the end of it all, denying you were ever a <BR>
member and being nothing more than an obscure quote to the fucked <BR>
up, prozac gulping pseudo-goths recruited to replace you."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 22:46:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Liverpool FLGS<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Just a quick update. Best Books & Games (my local FLGS) in Liverpool <BR>
were also at the Dudley convention, and acquired a few copies of 101 <BR>
Patrons & ACQ (and all the other BITS books). They also had some of <BR>
the FASA and Gamelords stuff, and Paranoia Press material at <BR>
reasonable prices.<BR>
<BR>
The copies of 101 Patrons are the first ones in UK distribution (as <BR>
the print run was only finished last week) so if you're in Liverpool <BR>
it may be worth giving them a look up.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 14:05:16 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots (Was Re: A Question of Products from BITS)<BR>
<BR>
"Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I like the sounds of that too. Speaking of 101 books, I'm looking for a copy<BR>
> of the original 101 Robots. Has anybody seen one for sale or have one for<BR>
> sale?<BR>
<BR>
The latest copy sold on Ebay went for $55, <BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310368583<BR>
<BR>
I dropped out of the bidding at $50. :( <BR>
<BR>
If anyone has a copy they'd like to sell I can pay $50 <BR>
(depending on condition) or trade for other Traveller items.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:31:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 6 May 2000 23:06:34 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
>>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>>> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
>>> Subject: Re: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
>>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>> So the absolute *best* you can do is a pair of "wings" one on each side<BR>
>>>> of the ship. <BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better? <BR>
>>> (Something like this:)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>     I<BR>
>>>   --O--<BR>
>>>     I<BR>
>><BR>
>>Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
>>cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
><BR>
> How about three wings 120 degrees apart? Where have I seen a ship like<BR>
> that? Who needs rhetorical questions?<BR>
<BR>
More efficient than 4 "wings", less efficient than two. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 12:29:56 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Expanded Point Defense rules (repost)<BR>
<BR>
Excellent rules overall. Like 'em a lot. A few questions though:<BR>
<BR>
1) How many targets can a single PD gun engage per turn? What sort of<BR>
difficulty increases are there for additional targets?<BR>
<BR>
2) Is there any modifier for weapon facing? IE, if the PD gun is facing<BR>
forward, and you get shot in the back? <BR>
<BR>
I guess this mainly deals with traverse times and the difficulty in<BR>
hitting multiple targets with a single weapon. If there is no such<BR>
modifier, a single 1MJ PD gun can protect a vehicle from any non-energy<BR>
weapon. Which makes it essentially invulnerable to any TL9- military<BR>
unit. If, however, the PD system can be overwhelmed by volume of fire or<BR>
fire from multiple directions, lower TL opponents still have a chance if<BR>
they gang-bang one target at a time. <BR>
<BR>
3) Does the PD gun intercept targets as they come in, or is there a<BR>
prioritization process it goes through? If I fire a VRF gauss gun at a<BR>
target with a PD gun, and my friend fires a missle or a few RAM<BR>
grenades, which will it intercept first? Assume that the gauss gun is<BR>
2cm+ and the target is a vehicle with sufficent TL PD to intercept the<BR>
gauss rounds.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 18:49:03 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[much snips of good info]<BR>
<BR>
>         There are lots of intermediate levels of classification.  Subphylum,<BR>
>         Superclass, etc., etc.<BR>
<BR>
That explains much.  Too bad the sources I've seen do not<BR>
clearly identify this when they use it.<BR>
<BR>
>         Any definition of species is essentially arbitrary.<BR>
<BR>
Cool.  I was certainly getting that impression.<BR>
Then everyone can argue what the better definition<BR>
is in the Traveller context.  I suggest that it focus more<BR>
on what "species" will mean in far future, where through<BR>
genetic manipulation may enable the creation or hybridization<BR>
of creatures that are not ordinarily capable of interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 19:13:52 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
DOH!<BR>
<BR>
Catch-22 in action:<BR>
<BR>
The only way for a character starting as a free-trader to<BR>
get Pilot is the Master Skills table, which requires you<BR>
to be Rank O4.  The only way to get to Rank O4 is to<BR>
have pilot.<BR>
<BR>
The only other way to get any Pilot skill is through<BR>
the Deck Department.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, that is broken.<BR>
<BR>
The only skills available to 'pure' Free Traders (not<BR>
including Mechant Life, Shipboard, Officer, Mercantile<BR>
and Master skills tables) are:<BR>
<BR>
Engineering, Navigation, Steward (3), Legal (2), Broker (2),<BR>
Trader, Admin, Gunnery, Leader, Brawling, Streetwise,<BR>
Forgery, Bribery.<BR>
<BR>
I see two easy solutions:<BR>
1) Replace a Steward slot in the FT Business table with<BR>
Pilot (which seems to fit with Engineering and Navigation<BR>
in that table), or<BR>
2) Allow FT char.s to use the Deck Department skill table<BR>
(Naviation, Admin, Pilot, Legal, Ship's Boat, Leader).<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd use (1).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
allensh wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I was rolling up a character from Book 7; Merchant<BR>
> Princes from my recently accquired Collector's Edition<BR>
> Vol. 1, and I ran into a snag. I was creating a Free<BR>
> Trader and when it came time for him to test for<BR>
> promotion to O4, he needed a Pilot-1. Unfortunatley,<BR>
> none of the tables open to Free Traders give Pilot<BR>
> skill! is this a legitimate error, or was I doing<BR>
> something wrong?<BR>
><BR>
> Allen<BR>
><BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:15:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
<BR>
Just notice that someone (timmon) is selling a set on eBay. currently<BR>
$46.67, but it is a reserve price auction, and the reserve is not yet<BR>
reached... I expect it will be in the region of the $100 they paid for<BR>
them...<BR>
<BR>
To see the details go to:<BR>
<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=326648698<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:28:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
>1) Replace a Steward slot in the FT Business table with<BR>
Pilot (which seems to fit with Engineering and Navigation<BR>
in that table), or<<BR>
<BR>
I have long since forgotten where it is written, but there was errata at<BR>
some point that indicated that this was the change that should be made.<BR>
Replace the Steward on a roll of 5 with Pilot. I would suggest scrounging<BR>
old JTAS for it if you have to see it in print, but this is the change I<BR>
have pencilled in my old B7 and I am sure it was based on an official note.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 17:04:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> DOH!<BR>
><BR>
> Catch-22 in action:<BR>
><BR>
> The only way for a character starting as a free-trader to<BR>
> get Pilot is the Master Skills table, which requires you<BR>
> to be Rank O4.  The only way to get to Rank O4 is to<BR>
> have pilot.<BR>
><BR>
> The only other way to get any Pilot skill is through<BR>
> the Deck Department.<BR>
<BR>
You can easily rationalize this shortage of pilot skills. These free traders<BR>
are all low-budget operations, and can't afford the overhead of the lengthy<BR>
and expensive training required for a pilot. Instead, they rely on people<BR>
seconded to other merchant lines or veterans of other bigger lines, who pick<BR>
up the training elsewhere. These options are reflected in the chargen<BR>
process. Maybe that's what was intended by the authors.<BR>
<BR>
It's much like the small helicopter operators in Hawaii, for example. None<BR>
of these companies will foot the bill for training a new pilot, but if you<BR>
have the skill already, you may be able to get a job flying for them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:05:04 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: TL Change<BR>
<BR>
I just realised why we haven't gone up a tech level yet, even though it's 2000.<BR>
<BR>
The TML hasn't rolled over the volume number. We're still in volume 1999.<BR>
<BR>
Bring on the grav rafts and jump drive!<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
_________________________________________________<BR>
If at first you don't succeed, try not to play Russian Roulette.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:31:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Uuuhhhh, unplug the cable feed and hit your channel changer (not literally<BR>
> of course, just the channel up or down button will do.)<BR>
<BR>
No, even *without* cable, recent sets don't "do" static. If the<BR>
video/audio isn't above a certain threshold, they just ignore it.<BR>
<BR>
I can get "static" on channels that have a very weak signal. Then again,<BR>
*my* TV is 20 years old...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:37:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I need a favor-<BR>
><BR>
> Back in the early-mid 80s (somewhere from 83-86) Dragon <BR>
> magazine published a CT article on mutants and mutant powers for <BR>
> Traveller characters.  I just search my apartment and seem to have <BR>
> lost this issue of Dragon.  If anyone has a spare copy of this <BR>
> magazine or would be willing to xerox a copy of the article I would <BR>
> be most grateful.  I'd also give them a copy of the issue of Shadis <BR>
> magazine # 51 with my T4 scenario in it (other compensation is <BR>
> also possible).  Does anyone have a copy of this article?<BR>
<BR>
Apparently you missed the announcement that they've put *all* the back<BR>
issues of the Dragon (except the most recent) on CD. <BR>
<BR>
So not only does someone *have* it, they may be able to *email* it to<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:43:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 5/7/00 1:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
> shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>   ObTrav: these are, of course, G:T resource materials in drag :><BR>
><BR>
> Probably not.  TRANSHUMAN SPACE is going to be very non-<BR>
> Traveller in flavor.  No FTL.  No aliens, but humanity has diversified<BR>
> so much via genetic engineering that there might as well be aliens.<BR>
> Cybertechnology.  Nanotechnology.  Lots of robots and powerful<BR>
> computers, some of them self-aware.<BR>
><BR>
> Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
> Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
You haven't read any Anderson lately, have you?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:20:37 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: TL Change<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't there a "Murphy's Rules" about this in an early Pyramid?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I just realised why we haven't gone up a tech level yet, even though it's 2000.<BR>
><BR>
> The TML hasn't rolled over the volume number. We're still in volume 1999.<BR>
><BR>
> Bring on the grav rafts and jump drive!<BR>
><BR>
> Graeme<BR>
> _________________________________________________<BR>
> If at first you don't succeed, try not to play Russian Roulette.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:44:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 07 May 2000 15:03<BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
>> I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
>> tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
><BR>
>101 history lessons<BR>
><BR>
>Written as lecture notes/handouts from Regina university. Each one<BR>
describing a<BR>
>single important event or time period.<BR>
><BR>
>Hey, if small comments (like "Booooooring" and "Tonight is the grav-ball<BR>
>finals") were added, the book might make a great flavor text for university<BR>
>life as well.<BR>
><BR>
>How about that idea?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
How about calling it "Imperial History: 101" <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2405<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2406</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/8/00 7:23:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 8 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2406<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 101 Robots (Was Re: A Question of Products from BITS)<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
Re: G:T resources<BR>
Re: Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: TL Change<BR>
Grand Survey/Census<BR>
Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans <BR>
OT Names<BR>
CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: Expanded Point Defense rules<BR>
RE: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
Satyr class scout<BR>
RE: Satyr class scout<BR>
Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
RE: Weird requests....<BR>
RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:58:04 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots (Was Re: A Question of Products from BITS)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 07 May 2000 23:09<BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots (Was Re: A Question of Products from BITS)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>"Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> I like the sounds of that too. Speaking of 101 books, I'm looking for a<BR>
copy<BR>
>> of the original 101 Robots. Has anybody seen one for sale or have one for<BR>
>> sale?<BR>
><BR>
>The latest copy sold on Ebay went for $55,<BR>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310368583<BR>
><BR>
>I dropped out of the bidding at $50.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That was my realistic ceiling too on a slightly earlier one... I actually<BR>
went up to $100, but only because the high bidder was someone who *always*<BR>
overbids (and has cost me quite a bit to outbid in the past on certain<BR>
items.... [Doh! I must be a compulsive bidder myself! Still, at least I<BR>
don't *start* with a ridiculously high bid...]) , and I was having getting<BR>
on well with the seller by email and she was selling stuff to finance a trip<BR>
to the UK. In the end it went for $102.50.<BR>
<BR>
>If anyone has a copy they'd like to sell I can pay $50<BR>
>(depending on condition) or trade for other Traveller items.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ditto here<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
eBay username: themightystrom<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:46:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
>How about three wings 120 degrees apart? Where have I seen a ship like<BR>
>that? Who needs rhetorical questions?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Battlestar Galactica Vipers, perhaps...?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:20:11 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 05 May 2000 15:15:42<BR>
Brian Jenkins <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: RE: Luke and the Space Battle Scene<BR>
><BR>
>To bring up another one.<BR>
><BR>
>Does anyone besides me have the tapes to the Star Wars Radio Drama?<BR>
><BR>
>It came to mind since that is the first time I saw (heard) the scene where Luke<BR>
witnessed >the space battle.<BR>
<BR>
I have the CD set of it (packed away somewhere).<BR>
However, the Star Wars Radio Drama was a special recording - it's not taken from<BR>
the film.<BR>
So it doesn't prove that there was an earlier version of Star Wars which had the<BR>
scenes.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Things are always darkest before they go completely black.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:34:38 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
> >How about three wings 120 degrees apart? Where have I seen a ship like<BR>
> >that? Who needs rhetorical questions?<BR>
><BR>
> Battlestar Galactica Vipers, perhaps...?<BR>
><BR>
> Matt<BR>
<BR>
Minbari fighters ands cruisers perchance...<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 20:42:41 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/7/00 8:13:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
>  > Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
>  <BR>
>  You haven't read any Anderson lately, have you?<BR>
<BR>
Ha.  Go back and look at the dedication for _First In_ again :-).<BR>
<BR>
Point taken, of course.  Although even recent Anderson is just Golden<BR>
Age Anderson with bio-nano-cybertech in it.  His tone is still not at all<BR>
like the usual transhumanist fiction.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:03:29 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
<BR>
I have the Dragon Magazine articles CD set.  Email me with details.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Cc: <sneadj@mindspring.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 7:37 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I need a favor-<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Back in the early-mid 80s (somewhere from 83-86) Dragon <BR>
> > magazine published a CT article on mutants and mutant powers for <BR>
> > Traveller characters.  I just search my apartment and seem to have <BR>
> > lost this issue of Dragon.  If anyone has a spare copy of this <BR>
> > magazine or would be willing to xerox a copy of the article I would <BR>
> > be most grateful.  I'd also give them a copy of the issue of Shadis <BR>
> > magazine # 51 with my T4 scenario in it (other compensation is <BR>
> > also possible).  Does anyone have a copy of this article?<BR>
> <BR>
> Apparently you missed the announcement that they've put *all* the back<BR>
> issues of the Dragon (except the most recent) on CD. <BR>
> <BR>
> So not only does someone *have* it, they may be able to *email* it to<BR>
> you.<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 18:46:25 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Neeed Old Dragon Magazine CT Article<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I need a favor-<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>>If anyone has a spare copy of this <BR>
>>magazine or would be willing to xerox a copy of the article I <BR>
>>would be most grateful.   <BR>
<BR>
>Apparently you missed the announcement that they've put *all* <BR>
>the back issues of the Dragon (except the most recent) on CD. <BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that was out yet.<BR>
<BR>
>So not only does someone *have* it, they may be able to *email* <BR>
>it to you.<BR>
<BR>
Someone already did :)  Thanks to all who offered to help.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 20:29:32 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: G:T resources<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
...<BR>
>>   ObTrav: these are, of course, G:T resource materials in drag :><BR>
...<BR>
>Cybertechnology.  Nanotechnology.  Lots of robots and powerful<BR>
>computers, some of them self-aware.<BR>
<BR>
  What, Trav heretics don't buy GURPS products? :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 23:04:10 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
<BR>
At 12:15 AM 5/8/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Just notice that someone (timmon) is selling a set on eBay. currently<BR>
>$46.67, but it is a reserve price auction, and the reserve is not yet<BR>
>reached... I expect it will be in the region of the $100 they paid for<BR>
>them...<BR>
><BR>
>To see the details go to:<BR>
><BR>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=326648698<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
Timmon is Paul Sanders.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 21:08:42 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid] <BR>
...<BR>
>That is really strange since Sanger doesn't own 2300 AD :)<BR>
>The owners of the game had mentioned last year (or 1998) the possibility of<BR>
>some sort of web presence for the 2300 rules, but we<BR>
>haven't heard anything else from them lately.<BR>
<BR>
  I could be mistaken, but ISTR the assumption on the 2300 AD that <BR>
the Tantalus company _was_ Sanger?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 00:08:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
Nope, Tantalus was MPGN, an internet gaming site/company.<BR>
MPGN (Multi player game network, I think)which  was sold, but Tantalus or<BR>
its heirs kept the rights to 2300, T2K, and Dark Conspiracy.  The last has<BR>
been relicensed and rereleased in the last couple of years.<BR>
<BR>
Sanger has no claim to 2300 except for DGP articles and maybe the Seeker<BR>
product line.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, when getting permission to host DGP articles on my 2300 site,<BR>
Sanger insisted that that the current owners of 2300 provide their Okay too.<BR>
He doesn't own it and that seems to be a good if not great thing.<BR>
- ------------------------<BR>
"Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
                           Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:12:40 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
> Probably not.  TRANSHUMAN SPACE is going to be very non-<BR>
> Traveller in flavor.  No FTL.  No aliens, but humanity has diversified<BR>
> so much via genetic engineering that there might as well be aliens.<BR>
> Cybertechnology.  Nanotechnology.  Lots of robots and powerful<BR>
> computers, some of them self-aware.<BR>
> <BR>
> Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
> Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
<BR>
Let's hope Greg Bear or Vernor Vinge rather than Sterling and Varley.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:42:47 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: TL Change<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> Wasn't there a "Murphy's Rules" about this in an early Pyramid?<BR>
<BR>
Yes. It even appears in the paper printed version of Murphy's Rules (available<BR>
from SJG)<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 01:01:52 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
If anyone has either the Grand Survey and/or the Grand Census, could <BR>
they please drop me a note?  On or off list.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 01:30:06 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans <BR>
<BR>
For further ideas on various species & sub-species of humaniti I <BR>
strongly suggest taking a look at both Chaosium's Ringworld game <BR>
(and to a lesser extent _Ringworld_ and _Ringworld Engineers_, <BR>
many interesting human variants (as well as a few outright silly <BR>
ones).  For even odder variants (many of which are not fully <BR>
sentient) also take a look at Dougal Dixon's book _Man After Man: <BR>
An Anthropology of the Future_<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:10:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd like<BR>
to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.<BR>
Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up on<BR>
(go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; IMTU my equivalent of Dirk Diggler (ala Boogie Nights) is Rock<BR>
Hard.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav II; These could be good 'seedy' names to throw into a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:13:15 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:04:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: CT question: Book 7 chargen mess-up<BR>
<BR>
I was rolling up a character from Book 7; Merchant<BR>
Princes from my recently accquired Collector's Edition<BR>
Vol. 1, and I ran into a snag. I was creating a Free<BR>
Trader and when it came time for him to test for<BR>
promotion to O4, he needed a Pilot-1. Unfortunatley,<BR>
none of the tables open to Free Traders give Pilot<BR>
skill! is this a legitimate error, or was I doing<BR>
something wrong?<BR>
<BR>
Allen<BR>
<BR>
If it's the same as MT then the errata said 'Skill Tables, Free Trader,<BR>
Business column (correction): Change<BR>
the die roll 5 entry from Steward to Pilot. With this change, a Free Trader<BR>
can now acquire pilot skill.'<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:34:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>         Any definition of species is essentially arbitrary.<BR>
><BR>
> Cool.  I was certainly getting that impression.<BR>
> Then everyone can argue what the better definition<BR>
> is in the Traveller context.  I suggest that it focus more<BR>
> on what "species" will mean in far future, where through<BR>
> genetic manipulation may enable the creation or hybridization<BR>
> of creatures that are not ordinarily capable of interbreeding.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, according to recent articles in Scientific American, this is<BR>
*already* a problem, because various viruses and bacterial plasmids<BR>
carry random genes between species. <BR>
<BR>
The molecular biologists noted this while trying to use genetic markers<BR>
to verify relationships between species. They'd be going along fine and<BR>
suddenly, here's an animal that's got genes from a tobacco plant or<BR>
some such.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that at least some alien planets have DNA based organisms,<BR>
this could lead to "interesting" genes in humans from those planets,<BR>
especially human subspecies who have been there for 300,000 years!<BR>
<BR>
Heck, the Zhodani may have so many psis because some viruses carried a<BR>
Droyne gene to some of their ancestors!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:05:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 5/7/00 8:13:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
>>  > Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  You haven't read any Anderson lately, have you?<BR>
><BR>
> Ha.  Go back and look at the dedication for _First In_ again :-).<BR>
<BR>
Kinda hard when I don't have a copy (yet). :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Point taken, of course.  Although even recent Anderson is just Golden<BR>
> Age Anderson with bio-nano-cybertech in it.  His tone is still not at all<BR>
> like the usual transhumanist fiction.<BR>
<BR>
And I think it's all the better for that difference in tone. I've never<BR>
cared for dystopian fiction.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:19:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Expanded Point Defense rules<BR>
<BR>
> From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Expanded Point Defense rules (repost)<BR>
><BR>
> Excellent rules overall. Like 'em a lot. A few questions though:<BR>
><BR>
> 1) How many targets can a single PD gun engage per turn? What sort of<BR>
> difficulty increases are there for additional targets?<BR>
<BR>
For every 2 points you succeed by, you hit one target, to a maximum of the<BR>
ROF of the weapon in the period (this is stolen from Striker).<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> 2) Is there any modifier for weapon facing? IE, if the PD gun is facing<BR>
> forward, and you get shot in the back?<BR>
><BR>
> I guess this mainly deals with traverse times and the difficulty in<BR>
> hitting multiple targets with a single weapon. If there is no such<BR>
> modifier, a single 1MJ PD gun can protect a vehicle from any non-energy<BR>
> weapon. Which makes it essentially invulnerable to any TL9- military<BR>
> unit. If, however, the PD system can be overwhelmed by volume of fire or<BR>
> fire from multiple directions, lower TL opponents still have a chance if<BR>
> they gang-bang one target at a time.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You can only hit detected weapons in the arc of the PD system.<BR>
<BR>
The arc issue is partly dealt with by the minimum ranges - if the lo-tech<BR>
people can bushwhack the target by ambush, then all the better.<BR>
<BR>
> 3) Does the PD gun intercept targets as they come in, or is there a<BR>
> prioritization process it goes through? If I fire a VRF gauss gun at a<BR>
> target with a PD gun, and my friend fires a missle or a few RAM<BR>
> grenades, which will it intercept first? Assume that the gauss gun is<BR>
> 2cm+ and the target is a vehicle with sufficent TL PD to intercept the<BR>
> gauss rounds.<BR>
<BR>
The firer gets to state the priority before rolling the dice ("Prime target<BR>
is the RAM grenades, then the gauss gun rounds".<BR>
<BR>
Ian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 07:40:59 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
<BR>
Hey Chris, <BR>
Why bother?<BR>
Since the first guy didn't go down with Tranq, your only person carrying it switched to HEAP...<BR>
;)<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:35:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
<BR>
I'm using Tranq in a current game and here's how I handle it.<BR>
<BR>
I give Tranq 4 die 6 damage.<BR>
<BR>
The first two dice are applied immediately against END (arbitrary<BR>
decision on my part)  The next two dice are applied randomly one die per<BR>
round for the next two rounds.  Unconsciousness lasts 1d6 x 10 min.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone else have any house rules they use for Tranq rounds<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 08:38:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
For anyone interested I have put a graphic showing an old Satyr class scout<BR>
(probably TL9).<BR>
I will be following it shortly with the FFS1 stats for it. I would welcome<BR>
peoples comments on the picture<BR>
and what actual configuration to build it as.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
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IBjhA/B0aCAb0BRAsEZGUzEWUAGQdAQg1wIQBcAbAC4VAXcIYBchOHdlbAWgB4AVcGVv/wtQB5Ee<BR>
IQeAAjAEIAIgG/P6cA3gdAhwExAZcwBwHdEfEQAVoSARB0Ae4W5maVZnCHAXYGkfgm8aIHW/AxAU<BR>
8BsBF9AZVRlkQQIwLQIgeRlkEfEAJVAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAAsAAYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA<BR>
AABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAA<BR>
AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAA8BMAAB4ACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAA<BR>
ADguNQALAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAMADYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG<BR>
AAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAWgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAAAAADABeACCAGAAAAAADA<BR>
AAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAGYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgAogAgg<BR>
BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AKYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA<BR>
ADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAA<BR>
CwAygAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALADSACyAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAA<BR>
iAAAAAAAAAsANoALIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAWIAAAAAAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAAKxGx6okQ<BR>
vxGih/ZedPpHPQIB+g8BAAAAEAAAACsRseqJEL8Roof2XnT6Rz0CAfsPAQAAAHMAAAAAAAAAOKG7<BR>
EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxXSU5E<BR>
T1dTXEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIERhdGFcTWljcm9zb2Z0XE91dGxvb2tcb3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAAMA/g8F<BR>
AAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADEAAAAwMDAwMDAwMDJCMTFCMUVBODkxMEJGMTFBMjg3RjY1RTc0<BR>
RkE0NzNEMjQzQjJFMDAAAAAA2RY=<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BFB8C8.C307C6E0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:05:23 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
>  -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: 	Antony Farrell [mailto:Skaran@bigpond.com] <BR>
> Sent:	Monday, May 08, 2000 4:38 PM<BR>
> To:	Traveller@Lists.Imagiconline.Com<BR>
> Subject:	Satyr class scout<BR>
> <BR>
> For anyone interested I have put a graphic showing an old Satyr class<BR>
scout (probably TL9).<BR>
> I will be following it shortly with the FFS1 stats for it. I would<BR>
welcome peoples comments on the picture<BR>
> and what actual configuration to build it as.<BR>
> <BR>
> Antony<BR>
<BR>
I'd find it easier to comment on the picture if there was a URL to it's<BR>
location... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 06:43:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
And the URL is...?<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
To: "Traveller@Lists.Imagiconline.Com" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:38 AM<BR>
Subject: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> For anyone interested I have put a graphic showing an old Satyr class<BR>
scout<BR>
> (probably TL9).<BR>
> I will be following it shortly with the FFS1 stats for it. I would welcome<BR>
> peoples comments on the picture<BR>
> and what actual configuration to build it as.<BR>
><BR>
> Antony<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
> If anyone has either the Grand Survey and/or the Grand Census, could <BR>
> they please drop me a note?  On or off list.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Red<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:03:21 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Jens said:<BR>
<BR>
>"They sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead<BR>
channel."<BR>
>- William Gibson, "Neuromancer"<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but folks these days think that the sky above the port was *bright<BR>
blue*, not grey and heavy and soupy like the image conjured up by a<BR>
reference to static. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:06:31 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
In reference to Sterling, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And I think it's all the better for that difference in tone. I've never<BR>
>cared for dystopian fiction.<BR>
<BR>
<Scratches head> Sterling dystopian? I don't really see it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:21:40 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In reference to Sterling, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >And I think it's all the better for that difference in tone. I've never<BR>
> >cared for dystopian fiction.<BR>
><BR>
> <Scratches head> Sterling dystopian? I don't really see it.<BR>
<BR>
Heavy Weather...Distraction...about dystopian as you want to get...economic<BR>
anarchy...killer weather...uncontrolled genetic<BR>
manipulation...revolution...despotic government...These are a few of my<BR>
favourite things...<BR>
<BR>
Of course, to Americans these might be an improvement, depending on your<BR>
views.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2407</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/8/00 5:09:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 8 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2407<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
Jeff Z. and the GIF-rangers!<BR>
Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
Table Master<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
Re: Jeff Z. and the GIF-rangers!<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
re: Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
RE: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
re: WARNING<BR>
OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: [BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
re:  OT Names<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:50:47 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Tranquilzer Rounds<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon writes:<BR>
>I've been reading the thread regarding Tranq rounds with great interest.<BR>
>I've never been able to find actual game rules (I'm a CT fan).<BR>
>I'm using Tranq in a current game and here's how I handle it.<BR>
>I give Tranq 4 die 6 damage.<BR>
>The first two dice are applied immediately against END (arbitrary<BR>
>decision on my part)  The next two dice are applied randomly one die per<BR>
>round for the next two rounds.  Unconsciousness lasts 1d6 x 10 min.<BR>
>Anyone else have any house rules they use for Tranq rounds?<BR>
<BR>
	My own CT rules for tranq rounds are as follows (as much as I can<BR>
	recall):<BR>
<BR>
	There is a 1 round delay before the onset of effects.<BR>
<BR>
	I assume that the size of the projectile is restricted, to avoid<BR>
	causing serious injury.  Therefore, the number of dice rolled varies<BR>
	by TL.  A typical tranq would call for about 3D.<BR>
<BR>
	If the roll is greater than End, the target is rendered unconscious<BR>
	(usually after one round of dizziness).  The roll - End is the damage<BR>
	taken by the target (this may be lethal).<BR>
<BR>
	Unconsciousness lasts (16-End)x10 min, and the target is dizzy for<BR>
	another 16-End min.<BR>
<BR>
	Additional doses before (16-End)x10 min add to the first.<BR>
<BR>
	Example:<BR>
	Round 1) Mr. Tough and Mr. Wimp are each hit by tranq rounds.  Mr. Wimp<BR>
	has a UPP of 463777 and takes a tranq effect of 9.  Mr. Tough has a UPP<BR>
	of 95B777 and takes a tranq effect of 10.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 2) They both take cover and draw their weapons.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 3) Mr. Wimp is feeling dizzy and suffers nasty DMs for any task,<BR>
	but Mr. Tough is OK (though he can probably feel a slight buzz).<BR>
<BR>
	Round 4) Mr. Wimp passes out, and Mr. Tough is hit by another tranq with<BR>
	an effect roll of 8.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 5) Mr. Tough turns and shoots his assailant, while Mr. Wimp takes<BR>
	6 points of damage (9-3=6, puts UPP to 241777).<BR>
<BR>
	Round 6) Mr. Tough looks for other enemies.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 7) Mr. Tough is now dizzy, and curses the GM.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 8) Mr. Tough finally passes out.<BR>
<BR>
	Round 9) Mr. Tough takes (10+8)-11=7 points of damage, and winds up with<BR>
	a UPP of 73A777.<BR>
<BR>
	Mr. Wimp's UPP will recover after 10 minutes to 352777, and he will awaken<BR>
	in 140 min (he will then be dizzy for an additional 14 min).  Mr. Tough's<BR>
	UPP will recover to 84B777 after 10 minutes, and he will awaken in 50 min<BR>
	(and remain dizzy for another 5 min).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:53:31 EDT<BR>
From: Diespamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Jeff Z. and the GIF-rangers!<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-06 00:54:42 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< GIF! GIF! GIF!<BR>
 <BR>
 - --<BR>
 Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
 jzeitlin@cyburban.com >><BR>
<BR>
Bless you...I think...if you're asking me to me digital pictures bear in mind <BR>
that:<BR>
<BR>
My Big Dob (15" mirror) does not have a tracking platform (that is a <BR>
significant amount of $$$ for a scope this big!)<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a CCD-imaging platform (another big $$$$)<BR>
<BR>
And I don't have a laptop for field use (more $$$$)...<BR>
<BR>
...so you'll have to do with breathless descriptions or travel to central NJ <BR>
on a clear night an see for yourself!<BR>
<BR>
Fred Kiesche<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 07:33:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If anyone has either the Grand Survey and/or the Grand Census, could <BR>
> they please drop me a note?  On or off list.<BR>
<BR>
I';m pretty sure I've got a copy. What do you need?<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:11:36 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Table Master<BR>
<BR>
Hello all;<BR>
    I was wondering if any of you used table master and had created any<BR>
Traveller specific table for it.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 11:58:12 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
MPGN, which used to host the TML, was purchased<BR>
by IEN (Internet Entertainment Network, a bunch of<BR>
nincompoops, several of which I have the personal<BR>
displeasure of knowing), which now hosts the list.<BR>
<BR>
IEN wants to be an MPlayer (a part of the company<BR>
I work for) or a Microsoft Gaming Zone.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nope, Tantalus was MPGN, an internet gaming site/company.<BR>
> MPGN (Multi player game network, I think)which  was sold, but Tantalus or<BR>
> its heirs kept the rights to 2300, T2K, and Dark Conspiracy.  The last has<BR>
> been relicensed and rereleased in the last couple of years.<BR>
><BR>
> Sanger has no claim to 2300 except for DGP articles and maybe the Seeker<BR>
> product line.<BR>
><BR>
> In fact, when getting permission to host DGP articles on my 2300 site,<BR>
> Sanger insisted that that the current owners of 2300 provide their Okay too.<BR>
> He doesn't own it and that seems to be a good if not great thing.<BR>
> ------------------------<BR>
> "Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
>                            Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 08:57:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In reference to Sterling, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>And I think it's all the better for that difference in tone. I've never<BR>
>>cared for dystopian fiction.<BR>
><BR>
> <Scratches head> Sterling dystopian? I don't really see it.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I guess I haven't read much (if any) of his stuff then, I was going<BR>
by what I recall of such "cyberpunk" fiction as I did read...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 12:02:18 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Evolution and the Ancient diaspora of humans (long)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, the Zhodani may have so many psis because some viruses carried a<BR>
> Droyne gene to some of their ancestors!<BR>
<BR>
Zho 1:  "What are you thinking about?"  Sniff.<BR>
<BR>
Zho 2:  "Nothing important."<BR>
<BR>
Zho 1: "Oh, come on.  Tell me.  A Penny for your thoughts"  Ka-Chooo!!<BR>
"Nevermind.  And I am NOT 'nosy'!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 08:58:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jeff Z. and the GIF-rangers!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-05-06 00:54:42 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << GIF! GIF! GIF!<BR>
>  <BR>
>  - --<BR>
>  Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
>  jzeitlin@cyburban.com >><BR>
><BR>
> Bless you...I think...if you're asking me to me digital pictures bear in <BR>
> mind <BR>
> that:<BR>
><BR>
> My Big Dob (15" mirror) does not have a tracking platform (that is a <BR>
> significant amount of $$$ for a scope this big!)<BR>
<BR>
If you can see the object thru the scope with your eyes, you can get<BR>
the same picture *without* a tracking mechanism. Just ust *fast* film,<BR>
and no time exposures. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> I don't have a CCD-imaging platform (another big $$$$)<BR>
<BR>
So use that old stuff called *film*. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> And I don't have a laptop for field use (more $$$$)...<BR>
<BR>
With film, you just take it back home and run it thru the scanner. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 19:12:09 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
allensh schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> --- Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hi!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I am trying to design a mass combat system for<BR>
> > starships in GT,<BR>
> <BR>
> Not to discourage you, but such a system already<BR>
> exists in Compendium II; it was the system that was<BR>
> originally in GURPS Space. There are some notes about<BR>
> the weapons and such in GT in places. It works pretty<BR>
> well; I used it some in pre-GT days.<BR>
> <BR>
> Allen<BR>
<BR>
Well, thank you; but does this system solve the problem I  mentioned? I<BR>
mean, Traveller-specific weapons against Traveller-specific<BR>
counter-weapons, which are in turn useles against other wepaons? (Meson<BR>
weaponry, nuclear dampers). If it is, I'm satisfied, of course, and<BR>
thank you again for the tip in this case, but I rather doubt it.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks <BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:32:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Lost Keith Supplements on eBay!<BR>
<BR>
At 20:21 -0400 7/5/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>wrote:<BR>
>Just notice that someone (timmon) is selling a set on eBay. currently<BR>
>$46.67, but it is a reserve price auction, and the reserve is not yet<BR>
>reached... I expect it will be in the region of the $100 they paid for<BR>
>them...<BR>
<BR>
Timmon is Paul Sanders.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (still waiting patiently for his two copies - or rather his and <BR>
David Thomas' copies - to arrive).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:06:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
>> <Scratches head> Sterling dystopian? I don't really see it.<BR>
><BR>
>Heavy Weather...Distraction...about dystopian as you want to get...<BR>
<BR>
Hardly. Did you actually read either one? I'm kind of baffled by the<BR>
"dystopian" characterization.<BR>
<BR>
>economic anarchy...killer weather...uncontrolled genetic<BR>
>manipulation...revolution...despotic government...These are a few of my<BR>
>favourite things...<BR>
<BR>
If you stop reading after 50 pages or so, or read only the book jackets, I<BR>
can imagine it would be possible to characterize Sterling as dystopian. I've<BR>
heard complaints that Sterling leans too heavily toward *stability*, not<BR>
instability. The general poor picture he paints of the very near future is<BR>
usually offset extremely heavily by the fact that the chaos is one step<BR>
towards the next level of stability. Please pay careful attention to how<BR>
each of Sterling's books *end*.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, to Americans these might be an improvement, depending on your<BR>
>views.<BR>
<BR>
Not at all. The improvement in each of Sterling's books takes place within<BR>
the plot. Things always start dystopic (and the main character always has a<BR>
superficial understanding of the world he or she lives and breathes in) and<BR>
end on a much more stable note (usually with the main character having been<BR>
at "ground zero," but not always consciously participating, when major<BR>
changes in culture and society are attained).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:50:36 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:36 PM -0700 5/4/00, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > If the proteins of Vland native life were made up of D-isomer amino<BR>
>  > acids instead of L-isomers, the Vilani could not have survived.<BR>
>  > D-isomers are very difficult to absorb, lack nutritional value and<BR>
>  > require a lot of effort to 'invert' [Spontaneous inversion takes years<BR>
>  > and forms the basis of an archaeological dating technique].<BR>
>  > Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
>Is there any reason why life could not evolve which can metabolize both<BR>
>stereoisomers?<BR>
<BR>
This isn't known.  But the fidelity to which life sticks to one<BR>
has lead some to speculate that you have build proteins with one<BR>
or the other.<BR>
<BR>
>You can certainly see why the use of both might evolve on one world, but by<BR>
>different life forms. Using the D-isomer would be a good defense against<BR>
>being eaten by your L-isomer based predators, and vice-versa. You would then<BR>
>have essentially two separate yet parallel food chains.<BR>
><BR>
>So if you have two different food sources based on the different<BR>
>stereoisomers, it would certainly be in your best interest to be able to<BR>
>metabolize both.<BR>
<BR>
There are a few microbes that can convert on amino acids of one<BR>
isomer to the other.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with different organisms using both is that one<BR>
someone from one side learns to eat the other he gets a big<BR>
advantage and can wipe out the other side.<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, food is clearly grown and shiped form world to<BR>
world and the issue of "handedness" never seems to come up.<BR>
This implies that L-amino acids are fairly universal.  I've<BR>
hear it discussed that it isn't known if you can make the<BR>
same kinds of proteins with D-amino acids.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:55:31 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
>A provisional workaround for this was local life being partly based on<BR>
>peptide-backed nucleic acids (PNAs) and an alternate genetic code,<BR>
>leading to the canonical idea that local viruses couldn't infect the<BR>
>Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
One doesn't really need to go this far.  Virus have trouble<BR>
jumping too far on Earth.  Humans catching a virus from a plant<BR>
or microbe is, AFAIK, unknown.  Even things like birds to<BR>
mamals is rare.  Given that, it isn't clear how much of a<BR>
threat virus from a completely different biosphere will be.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:55:31 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
>A provisional workaround for this was local life being partly based on<BR>
>peptide-backed nucleic acids (PNAs) and an alternate genetic code,<BR>
>leading to the canonical idea that local viruses couldn't infect the<BR>
>Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
One doesn't really need to go this far.  Virus have trouble<BR>
jumping too far on Earth.  Humans catching a virus from a plant<BR>
or microbe is, AFAIK, unknown.  Even things like birds to<BR>
mamals is rare.  Given that, it isn't clear how much of a<BR>
threat virus from a completely different biosphere will be.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 12:07:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/8/00 2:10 PM, kmhughes@dynamite.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav II; These could be good 'seedy' names to throw into a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Not mine, I wind up with Namistae Normandy. Doesn't sound seedy to me. Even<BR>
if I use later pet names and roads, I get very odd names. Jennifer Oak Grove<BR>
School. Fenny Jones. Or Shilo Whitlock. Well, /that/ does sound interesting,<BR>
but not so seedy.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:48:46 +0200<BR>
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:10:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd like<BR>
>to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . '<BR>
names.<BR>
>Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up on<BR>
>(go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav II; These could be good 'seedy' names to throw into a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. My name would be Valle Stor. Given that Valle is a short form of<BR>
Cavalier (King Charles Spaniel ;-), which babelfish says is french for<BR>
rider, and that Stor in swedish means Big, well, "Very good, very good! Eh?<BR>
Eh? Eh? Oooh! You're wicked Eh! Wicked eh! Say no MORE!"<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Having innocuous words in one language mean something quite<BR>
different in another can certainly cause interesting misunderstandings.<BR>
F'rinstance, the Kazak word for the color blue is Kuk, which (if read as<BR>
Swedish) means something akin to (to continue in a Montypythonian vein) that<BR>
good friend of Pilate that goes under the unfortunate moniker of "Biggus<BR>
Dickus". ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 13:31:02 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd like<BR>
> to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.<BR>
> Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up on<BR>
> (go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
<BR>
Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:11:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....mine would be Silky Maplewood.<BR>
<BR>
Makes you wonder eh?<BR>
<BR>
>>> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> 05/08/00 01:31PM >>><BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd like<BR>
> to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.<BR>
> Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up on<BR>
> (go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:19:10 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 12:45 PM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>HTML, itself, isn't all that bad compared to some formats (doc comes to <BR>
>mind). Besides the web isn't a push product, you go to sites and *ask* to <BR>
>receive the page. At well designed sites,  you can even choose whether you <BR>
>want the graphics rich verison or an alternative before it's sent down the <BR>
>pipe to you.  Not so with email.<BR>
<BR>
Well the choice issue is what I meant in my original message.  I happen to <BR>
have no problem getting high bandwidth stuff at present, I've worked on <BR>
enough systems where  I either have low bandwidth or a text-only browser <BR>
that I get annoyed when people don't make an alternate version.  I feel the <BR>
same way about email...<BR>
<BR>
>For email there is a place for graphics and rich text...occasionally. The <BR>
>occasions are rare, though, and any email client that lards up *all* email <BR>
>messages with bloat, whether it's called for or not, is a royal pain. <BR>
>That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.<BR>
<BR>
That's true.  I don't use Outlook so I can't comment on it, but my Eudora <BR>
(which is capable of HTMLing everything) is set to send straight text <BR>
unless otherwise told...  And even then, it sends an unformatted copy along.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 15:19:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
Anybody know a company that can make custom stickers?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:23:25 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 12:30 PM 5/6/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >On 05/06/00 at 11:22 AM,  Juliean Galak said:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>Kiri, not withstanding, email is for text not graphics<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>That's what used to be said about the Web until Mosaic, desktops until<BR>
>Apple, and computers in general until someone else.  I see no reason why<BR>
>graphics can't be a part of e-mail, as long as someone can still read your<BR>
>mail without them (I feel the same way about the Web...).<BR>
> >><BR>
>Lynx user?<BR>
<BR>
Not in several years now.  But I've had to do it before, and know the pain <BR>
it could be when people don't maintain text-only (or at least <BR>
text-friendly) pages.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 15:23:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
Do you mean Bumper Stickers?  Or something larger?  or smaller?<BR>
<BR>
>>> "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> 05/08/00 03:19PM >>><BR>
Anybody know a company that can make custom stickers?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com <BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:33:41 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Breaking News - 101 Patrons released<BR>
<BR>
At 01:21 AM 5/7/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>How about another book like ACQ, but dealing with spaceship combat (including<BR>
>sensor operation and such things)?<BR>
<BR>
I'm still looking for a good space combat system for use with GT.  My <BR>
personal criteria are as following:<BR>
<BR>
- - Compatibility with GT character stats & vehicle design rules (both from <BR>
the modular system and from Vehicles 2nd)<BR>
<BR>
- - No need for very accurate map-keeping (this rules out GT's vector based <BR>
system)<BR>
<BR>
- - High degree of the player's use of skills on outcome<BR>
<BR>
- - High degree of gearheadedness possible (that extra .2Gs that I squeezed <BR>
out by getting rid of the backup computer should mean something, dammit!)<BR>
<BR>
- - Plausibility (not necessarily realism - it just has to feel plausible <BR>
from a physics POV).<BR>
<BR>
If you put out a product like that, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:36:57 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 PM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> > Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better?<BR>
> > (Something like this:)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >     I<BR>
> >   --O--<BR>
> >     I<BR>
><BR>
>Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
>cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
<BR>
I know that for conduction based cooling large surface area is key.  Does <BR>
this not apply to radiation cooling?<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 15:46:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I know that for conduction based cooling large surface area is key.  Does <BR>
> this not apply to radiation cooling?<BR>
<BR>
For radiation cooling large cross-section is key.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:07:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  OT Names<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
<BR>
>or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
<BR>
>I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
<BR>
>name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
>grew up on(go with the first if lots). <BR>
<BR>
Pickles North Thirty-fourth.  I dunno.  It doesn't improve<BR>
with Trapper North Thirty-fourth.  <BR>
<BR>
North Thirty-fourth Street is the only address where we had<BR>
dogs.  I guess I could mix and match to avoid numbers: <BR>
Pickles Deering or Trapper Greenock -- but then the dogs<BR>
and addresses are not only from different times but<BR>
different states.  <BR>
<BR>
Curly Beach Park as an adult; it still isn't working for<BR>
me.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2408</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2408<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
OT: Names<BR>
Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
Re: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
RE: Satyr class scout<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:25:51 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin:<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
> <BR>
> >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
> >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
> <BR>
> Pickles North Thirty-fourth.  I dunno.  It doesn't improve<BR>
> with Trapper North Thirty-fourth.<BR>
> <BR>
> North Thirty-fourth Street is the only address where we had<BR>
> dogs.  I guess I could mix and match to avoid numbers:<BR>
> Pickles Deering or Trapper Greenock -- but then the dogs<BR>
> and addresses are not only from different times but<BR>
> different states.<BR>
> <BR>
> Curly Beach Park as an adult; it still isn't working for<BR>
> me.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Depending on when I take my sample, my best choices are:<BR>
Venus Alvin<BR>
Midnight Clarke<BR>
Goblin Hill<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 20:31:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
><BR>
> Curly Beach Park as an adult; it still isn't working for<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, not much better than "Bagheera Beach Park"<BR>
<BR>
Although my earlier "Dusty Main" and "Arrow Bluff" aren't too terrible.<BR>
Terrible is my current "Gertrude Pinkham".  Maybe a madam at a class D<BR>
starport brothel, I don't know.  She could go by "Tru Pink" or something :-p<BR>
<BR>
My daughter would have a decent one: "Princess Chewonki"  Hmm, she is about<BR>
to enter her teens.  Perhaps it's time she rolled her first character? :-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:35:46 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  If anyone has either the Grand Survey and/or the Grand Census, could<BR>
>>  they please drop me a note?  On or off list.<BR>
><BR>
>I';m pretty sure I've got a copy. What do you need?<BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the response.<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to know if the books are worth getting, and what <BR>
specifically is in them, as all I've seen are the vague sales <BR>
descriptions.  I'm especially interested on planetary/system <BR>
information.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:51:34 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
> <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
><BR>
> >Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
> >or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
> >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
> >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
> >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
<BR>
I've always heard it this way:<BR>
Porn Name:<BR>
 - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
 - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
<BR>
Soap Opera Name:<BR>
 - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
 - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived on.<BR>
<BR>
That makes me:<BR>
Bear Krieger for the Porn Industry, and<BR>
Douglas Darlington for the Soap Operas.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 18:01:43 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:25:51 -0700<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin:<BR>
 >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
 > >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
 ><BR>
 > >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
 > >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
 ><BR>
 > Pickles North Thirty-fourth.  I dunno.  It doesn't improve<BR>
 > with Trapper North Thirty-fourth.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > North Thirty-fourth Street is the only address where we had<BR>
 > dogs.  I guess I could mix and match to avoid numbers:<BR>
 > Pickles Deering or Trapper Greenock -- but then the dogs<BR>
 > and addresses are not only from different times but<BR>
 > different states.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > Curly Beach Park as an adult; it still isn't working for<BR>
 > me.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Depending on when I take my sample, my best choices are:<BR>
Venus Alvin<BR>
Midnight Clarke<BR>
Goblin Hill<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
===<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmmm, it MIGHT work, IF I were female.<BR>
<BR>
Mischivous (sp?) Lady Antler Lane<BR>
<BR>
This is rapidly getting wierd.  I'll go back to my request from yesterday, <BR>
does anyone out there have a copy of Bruce Macintosh's space combat system <BR>
from a year or two ago?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
JimC<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:17:23 -0500<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
> > <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> ><BR>
> > >Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
> > >or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
> > >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
> > >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
> > >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
<BR>
Ringo Diamond!<BR>
<BR>
> I've always heard it this way:<BR>
> Porn Name:<BR>
>  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
>  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
<BR>
Ringo Richburg?  Hee! Hee! So, which one is the alias? <g><BR>
<BR>
> Soap Opera Name:<BR>
>  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
>  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived on.<BR>
<BR>
Heath Diamond...I can see his flashing dimples now! <g><BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:28:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
On 8 May 00, at 20:51, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
> > <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> ><BR>
> > >Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
> > >or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
> > >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
> > >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
> > >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
> <BR>
> I've always heard it this way:<BR>
> Porn Name:<BR>
>  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
>  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
> <BR>
> Soap Opera Name:<BR>
>  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
>  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived on.<BR>
> <BR>
> That makes me:<BR>
> Bear Krieger for the Porn Industry, and<BR>
> Douglas Darlington for the Soap Operas.<BR>
<BR>
Makes me Max Rix-Trott and/or Stephen Campbell (though my father is <BR>
called by his second name, so maybe I should use his first name, <BR>
getting George Campbell).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:28:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
On 8 May 00, at 13:31, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd<BR>
> > like to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . .<BR>
> > ' names. Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
> > grew up on (go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
<BR>
Badna Millrick, Yavana Campbell and Max Ngata. What a wonderful choice.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 22:03:57 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
At 03:46 PM 5/8/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Juliean Galak writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > I know that for conduction based cooling large surface area is key.  Does<BR>
> > this not apply to radiation cooling?<BR>
><BR>
>For radiation cooling large cross-section is key.<BR>
<BR>
ah.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 22:02:49 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
<BR>
At 10:48 PM 5/8/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:10:26 +1000<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
>Subject: OT Names<BR>
><BR>
>Warning; Ltd Ob Trav<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm sure this has made it on the TML - or in another spheres - but I'd like<BR>
> >to see what TMLers 'If I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . '<BR>
>names.<BR>
> >Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up on<BR>
> >(go with the first if lots). Mine is Sooty Westmacott.<BR>
<BR>
Sonar Kosmonavtov?<BR>
<BR>
More technobabble than seedy....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 21:45:50 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
At 03:32 PM 5/7/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>I am trying to design a mass combat system for starships in GT, being<BR>
>inspired by a similar system in<BR>
>GURPS: Conan. I know, I know, GT Navy will handle this, but since that's<BR>
>not on the horizon, we have to do something... and I plan to put the<BR>
>final system on my homepage.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds great.  Have you considered basing it on FFW?  (I haven't actually <BR>
played FFW, so this may not be a practicable suggestion...)  It might be a <BR>
place to start from<BR>
<BR>
>My first intention was to compute a vessel overall combat value(VOAV)<BR>
>for each participating vessel, add up all those VOAV's for both sides<BR>
>and then use a table to determine the outcome of the battle, the time it<BR>
>took, the fate of one individual ship on one of the sides, and the fate<BR>
>of individuals characters on that particualar ship. I was planning to<BR>
>include modificators for the two fleets' commander's strategy<BR>
>skills, for particularly cunning or stupid battle plans, surprise etc<BR>
>and for the decision of the ndividual ships' crews on how to behave in<BR>
>battle (e.g. exceptionally courageous/stupid or extremely careful; that<BR>
>would influence VOAV and ship's individual fate: extremely cautious is<BR>
>not good for VOAV, but very good for the vessel's survival.).<BR>
><BR>
>The problem in doing this for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
There is another problem - Different fleet compositions work differently. <BR>
Example:<BR>
<BR>
Ship Class  VOAV<BR>
BB              50<BR>
CA              30<BR>
DD              10<BR>
<BR>
So using straight VOAVs, Two BB, 6 CA, and 12 DD (400) is about the same as <BR>
8 BB.  However, "conventional" wisdom say that you should put ships into a <BR>
"task group" type setting.  OTOH, Traveller's "'Ron" approach say group <BR>
them by type.  This issue of fleet composition needs to be taken into account.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:37:51 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
At 6:36 PM -0400 5/8/00, Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
>At 11:06 PM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>  > Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better?<BR>
>>  > (Something like this:)<BR>
>>  ><BR>
>>  >     I<BR>
>>  >   --O--<BR>
>>  >     I<BR>
>><BR>
>>Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
>>cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
><BR>
>I know that for conduction based cooling large surface area is key. <BR>
>Does this not apply to radiation cooling?<BR>
<BR>
NOOOOO.  For radiation, it only counts if the energy radiates away and<BR>
doesn't come back.  If you are a little spot on any of these four wings,<BR>
then a big chunk of sky you see is blocked by one other fin.  All the<BR>
heat you radiate in that direction is reabsorbed by the other fin.  Some<BR>
of the energy absorbed by that fin hits YOU.  Overall, radiating<BR>
surfaces which are exposed to other radiating surfaces are less<BR>
efficient than radiating surfaces exposed to no others.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:14:27 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: Names<BR>
<BR>
I have the distinct pleasure of coming up as:<BR>
<BR>
Buster Lake<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:36:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>  If anyone has either the Grand Survey and/or the Grand Census, could<BR>
>>>  they please drop me a note?  On or off list.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I';m pretty sure I've got a copy. What do you need?<BR>
<BR>
> Thanks for the response.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd like to know if the books are worth getting, and what <BR>
> specifically is in them, as all I've seen are the vague sales <BR>
> descriptions.  I'm especially interested on planetary/system <BR>
> information.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I *thought* I had Grand Survey. Turns out I've got Grand Census. <BR>
Which has some nice equipment, and some ok tables for dealing with<BR>
cultural details of a world. <BR>
<BR>
I'd say it's worth getting if you don't pay too much.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:41:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In Traveller, food is clearly grown and shiped form world to<BR>
> world and the issue of "handedness" never seems to come up.<BR>
> This implies that L-amino acids are fairly universal.<BR>
<BR>
No, because if it's D-amino acids, or L-sugars (or both) it's not<BR>
"food" by any normal definition of the term. It may even be toxic<BR>
(don't laugh, Deuterium oxide is toxic, yet it's "merely water")<BR>
<BR>
We have a lot of poisonous plants here on earth on various continents.<BR>
some remarkably closely related to food crops (tomatos and belladonna,<BR>
for example). Yet "the issue of toxicity" doesn't come up much. Nobody<BR>
ships *those* plants as food. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:51:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>A provisional workaround for this was local life being partly based on<BR>
>>peptide-backed nucleic acids (PNAs) and an alternate genetic code,<BR>
>>leading to the canonical idea that local viruses couldn't infect the<BR>
>>Vilani.<BR>
><BR>
> One doesn't really need to go this far.  Virus have trouble<BR>
> jumping too far on Earth.  Humans catching a virus from a plant<BR>
> or microbe is, AFAIK, unknown.<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't go that far. Genetic studies show all sorts of pretty wild<BR>
crossovers of genes between different genera, even different kingdoms.<BR>
<BR>
> Even things like birds to mamals is rare.<BR>
<BR>
The *flu* is rare? Parrot fever? Or a whole *list* of viral infections<BR>
that jump *freely* between humans and birds?<BR>
<BR>
> Given that, it isn't clear how much of a threat virus from a completely<BR>
> different biosphere will be.<BR>
<BR>
It's not *likely*, but it is possible. What the *result* would is<BR>
another matter. Since a true viral infection destroys cells, there'd be<BR>
some illness. We'd also get the usual "side-effect" of some of the<BR>
host's DNA incorporated in the new copies of the virus.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, sometimes ar virus winds up not infecting very well,<BR>
and part or all of it winds up incorporated in the DNA of the cell it<BR>
was trying to infect. If this cell is in the gonads, then you wind up<BR>
with the potential for the next generation to have genes from an<BR>
"unrelated" organism. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:02:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anybody know a company that can make custom stickers?<BR>
<BR>
On of the alt.callahans regulars sells both buttons and bumper stickers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 01:10:44 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
<BR>
>or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
<BR>
>I were a porn star, my name would be  . . . '<BR>
<BR>
>name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
>grew up on(go with the first if lots). <BR>
<BR>
 Mixing and matching pets and streets:<BR>
<BR>
 Hmm. Blackie Kildare, Mitzi Camelback <oy!>, Smokey Doolittle <heh>, Kitty <BR>
Tribune...<BR>
<BR>
 Only the last one is an actual match of pet to address, and only the first <BR>
has decent porn star potential, but all go into the names file (next to <BR>
"Fasola Teedo" the singer, and others).<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:30:40 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Have you thought of using a computer program to run throught the battle?&nbsp;<BR>
This would take into account the problem of what type of weapons are effective<BR>
against each other.<BR>
<BR>
This type of program would be a fairly simple loop.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 15:32:09 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher &lt;Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:04:36 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> >A provisional workaround for this was local life being partly based on<BR>
> >peptide-backed nucleic acids (PNAs) and an alternate genetic code,<BR>
> >leading to the canonical idea that local viruses couldn't infect the<BR>
> >Vilani.<BR>
> <BR>
> One doesn't really need to go this far.<BR>
<BR>
David, your points on infectivity are well taken. However, you omitted<BR>
in your quote the paragraph before :-<BR>
<BR>
> The big obstacle to the development and continued survival of life was<BR>
> felt to be increased levels of [primarily] ultraviolet radiation (the<BR>
> geological background being roughly the same).<BR>
<BR>
I felt that PNA paved over (at least) two problems for the price of one<BR>
handwave.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(aka Skippy Dalnott, after Michael Hughes)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 03:16:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Dave Strebe<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 8 May 2000 5:43 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> And the URL is...?<BR>
<BR>
Ur  oops, its http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
> To: "Traveller@Lists.Imagiconline.Com" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:38 AM<BR>
> Subject: Satyr class scout<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > For anyone interested I have put a graphic showing an old Satyr class<BR>
> scout<BR>
> > (probably TL9).<BR>
> > I will be following it shortly with the FFS1 stats for it. I <BR>
> would welcome<BR>
> > peoples comments on the picture<BR>
> > and what actual configuration to build it as.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Antony<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:38:27 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anybody know a company that can make custom stickers?<BR>
<BR>
Doug what are you looking for?...<BR>
<BR>
Or if you have what you want as a graphic.... Kinkos does some<BR>
limited run stuff on to full page stick back.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:41:45 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah. A lot of record stores and many gift shops have the "LaserLight" line<BR>
> of discount CDs. Last I checked they are usually around $5-$7, U.S. They<BR>
> have a series of CDs which are the collected sounds of radio-telescopes. The<BR>
> name of the series escapes me (I want to say "Symphonies of the Planets" or<BR>
> "Symphonies of the Universe", but I'm not sure), but I have one laying<BR>
> around. If I can find it, I'll post in to the list.<BR>
><BR>
> Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
Cool... It gives me a place to start.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:45:20 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One question (mainly to Evyn, but anyone could answer):<BR>
><BR>
> The background sounds you are gathering... how large are the files?<BR>
<BR>
Don't know yet.... Most of the cuts are still analog. Haven't set up<BR>
the 4 track yet so mixes are a bit far off at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
> I am very<BR>
> interested in such sounds. If you have a fast, unlimited-time type connection,<BR>
> could you send them to me in some format (mp3 or wav are perfect)?<BR>
<BR>
Sure... Haven't got all the pieces working yet. Will do.<BR>
<BR>
> If you found the sounds online somewhere, posting the URLs to the list would be<BR>
> very helpful.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still looking in to that.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2409</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/9/00 11:57:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2409<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
~aRE: OT Names<BR>
Re: ~aRE: OT Names<BR>
Pet/Street name combos<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Another strange request<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Weekly JTAS Table of Contents Posting?<BR>
Re: Another strange request<BR>
Re: WARNING<BR>
Help with TML Commands<BR>
OT: Names<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:48:11 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Aside from the fact that the "sounds" the telescope gets aren't<BR>
> *entirely* random, there's another problem.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.<BR>
<BR>
That I'm trying to sample ambient sound as well.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also looking a various bits of Muzak to filter in.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:45:05 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Grand Survey/Census<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
>Well, I *thought* I had Grand Survey. Turns out I've got Grand Census.<BR>
>Which has some nice equipment, and some ok tables for dealing with<BR>
>cultural details of a world.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd say it's worth getting if you don't pay too much.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the tip.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:17:01 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: ~aRE: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
> Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> 'If I were a porn star, my name would be  . . .'<BR>
<BR>
Geisha Warspite.<BR>
<BR>
Suitably over the top for a Neil Stephenson novel I think.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:04:16 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: ~aRE: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
On 9 May 00, at 21:17, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > 'If I were a porn star, my name would be  . . .'<BR>
<BR>
> Geisha Warspite.<BR>
<BR>
Mine comes out at Sidth Silkwood, Now thats just weird.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:29:29 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Pet/Street name combos<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Depending on when I take my sample, my best choices are:<BR>
Venus Alvin<BR>
Midnight Clarke<BR>
Goblin Hill<BR>
<BR>
- - -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
Baron von Fang Hoover is a bit weird. Unless you hyphenate it.<BR>
Baron von Fang-Hoover<BR>
Well, I guess Sugar Wellington isn't bad, but it kinds sounds like a dessert...<BR>
:)<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:00:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
what kind of stickers?<BR>
<BR>
for Bumper Stickers, contact<BR>
WereHatrack at Instant Attitudes<BR>
not sure of the addy, but its linked from<BR>
the good folks at pegasuspublisihing.com<BR>
<BR>
Pegasus Publishing carries assorted neat<BR>
stuff from the Honor Harrington books and the <BR>
Vorkosigan series. among other things.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:03:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:06 PM 5/6/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>> > Wouldn't using two pairs of radiator wings at 90 degree angle be better?<BR>
>> > (Something like this:)<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >     I<BR>
>> >   --O--<BR>
>> >     I<BR>
>><BR>
>>Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
>>cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
><BR>
> I know that for conduction based cooling large surface area is key.  Does <BR>
> this not apply to radiation cooling?<BR>
<BR>
For radiation cooling, area is important. But so is "radiation angle".<BR>
A flat plate has an angle of 180. From any point on it, you can "see"<BR>
(or radiate to) 180 degrees. Take that same plate and put a 90 degree<BR>
fold in it, and suddenly most of it can see (roughly) 90 degrees of<BR>
sky. Radiation at other angles hits the other half of the plate. <BR>
<BR>
Basicly, from various points on your radiator, draw *straight* lines.<BR>
Any lines that hit another section of the radiator, or the ship, are<BR>
wasted. That heat just moved from one place on the ship to another. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not positive about this, but I seem to recall that for a concave<BR>
surface, the radiator iis equiavlent to a flat plate stretched across<BR>
the "opening". <BR>
<BR>
So for two plates of width 1, meeting at 90 degrees, the effective area<BR>
is that of a plate of width 1.4 (sqrt(2)). So, for all 4 of the plate<BR>
pairs in the "cross formation" you get 4*sqrt(2) = 5.656...as the total<BR>
effective area from a set of panels with an overall area of 8.<BR>
<BR>
    |<BR>
  --*--   5.656...<BR>
    |<BR>
<BR>
But if, instead you have two panels of width 2 on opposite sides, you<BR>
get an effective area of 8, from the *same area of radiators.<BR>
<BR>
- ----*----  8<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:20:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:45 PM 5/6/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>HTML, itself, isn't all that bad compared to some formats (doc comes to <BR>
>>mind). Besides the web isn't a push product, you go to sites and *ask* to <BR>
>>receive the page. At well designed sites,  you can even choose whether you <BR>
>>want the graphics rich verison or an alternative before it's sent down the <BR>
>>pipe to you.  Not so with email.<BR>
><BR>
> Well the choice issue is what I meant in my original message.  I happen to <BR>
> have no problem getting high bandwidth stuff at present, I've worked on <BR>
> enough systems where  I either have low bandwidth or a text-only browser <BR>
> that I get annoyed when people don't make an alternate version.  I feel the <BR>
> same way about email...<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and from what I'm told, it's *not* that hard for the tags that<BR>
replace the "neat graphics" to be clickable so that the "text based"<BR>
user can *download* the graphics to display later.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 23:50:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>>>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
>>> <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>Warning; Ltd Ob TravI'm sure this has made it on the TML -<BR>
>>>>or in another spheres - but I'd liketo see what TMLers 'If<BR>
>>>>I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
>>>>name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
>>>>grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
><BR>
> Ringo Diamond!<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Northwest<BR>
<BR>
>> I've always heard it this way:<BR>
>> Porn Name:<BR>
>>  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
>>  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
><BR>
> Ringo Richburg?  Hee! Hee! So, which one is the alias? <g><BR>
<BR>
Thomas McCarry<BR>
<BR>
>> Soap Opera Name:<BR>
>>  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
>>  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived on.<BR>
><BR>
> Heath Diamond...I can see his flashing dimples now! <g><BR>
<BR>
Olaf ????<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:19:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin:<BR>
>>From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
>> >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . ' names.Given<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you<BR>
>> >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Pickles North Thirty-fourth.  I dunno.  It doesn't improve<BR>
>> with Trapper North Thirty-fourth.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> North Thirty-fourth Street is the only address where we had<BR>
>> dogs.  I guess I could mix and match to avoid numbers:<BR>
>> Pickles Deering or Trapper Greenock -- but then the dogs<BR>
>> and addresses are not only from different times but<BR>
>> different states.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Curly Beach Park as an adult; it still isn't working for<BR>
>> me.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm. Depending on when I take my sample, my best choices are:<BR>
> Venus Alvin<BR>
> Midnight Clarke<BR>
> Goblin Hill<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Northwest<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:16:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
There are a number of Ad Specialty Companies that can do that also.<BR>
<BR>
>>> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> 05/09/00 12:38AM >>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anybody know a company that can make custom stickers?<BR>
<BR>
Doug what are you looking for?...<BR>
<BR>
Or if you have what you want as a graphic.... Kinkos does some<BR>
limited run stuff on to full page stick back.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/ <BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:10:27 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> Sounds great.  Have you considered basing it on FFW?  (I haven't actually<BR>
> played FFW, so this may not be a practicable suggestion...)  It might be a<BR>
> place to start from<BR>
<BR>
No, I have not. Basically because I don't know what FFW is. :-)<BR>
 <BR>
[snip] <BR>
> There is another problem - Different fleet compositions work differently.<BR>
> Example:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ship Class  VOAV<BR>
> BB              50<BR>
> CA              30<BR>
> DD              10<BR>
> <BR>
> So using straight VOAVs, Two BB, 6 CA, and 12 DD (400) is about the same as<BR>
> 8 BB.  However, "conventional" wisdom say that you should put ships into a<BR>
> "task group" type setting.  OTOH, Traveller's "'Ron" approach say group<BR>
> them by type.  This issue of fleet composition needs to be taken into account.<BR>
<BR>
Actually I intended to let this up to those who use the system: Say, you<BR>
have a total loss of 33%<BR>
of your VOAV for the entire fleet. The one who choses which ships are<BR>
actaully concerned can go many different ways: For example, assign a 33%<BR>
loss to any vessel, or completely eliminate some vessels while<BR>
protecting others. This is rather abstract, but fits the "task force"<BR>
concept. You can sacrifice smaller vessels completely (which is part of<BR>
their role, after all) and have a few fully undamaged dreadnoughts<BR>
afterward, with no wounded, no ships to be repaired- or you can damage<BR>
he larger ships (which have more VOAV) but let the smaller ones be<BR>
rather untouched (though this would be economic nonsense to do, but it<BR>
may make sense if you have to claim "no ships lost in battle"). Etc, pp.<BR>
And when I manage to take into account that some weapons systems are<BR>
extremely usefull against some defensives and useless against others, we<BR>
could end up with a system that is, though a bit abstract, quite<BR>
realistic in its results. (Perhaps one could use something like that to<BR>
simulate parts of the civil war?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've had one idea in the meantime: A weapons factor for lasers, for<BR>
particle weapons, for mesons, etc, and related defense factors. Thus, I<BR>
would have a VOAV, plus a laser offensive value, plus a laser defensive<BR>
value, etc. When determining the results, the various relations <BR>
offensive/defensive would play an important role for influencing<BR>
modifiers on the battle results table.<BR>
<BR>
Any ideas, comments, etc.?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:11:54 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
"Ken J. Kazinski" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Have you thought of using a computer program to run throught the<BR>
> battle?  This would take into account the problem of what type of<BR>
> weapons are effective against each other.<BR>
> <BR>
> This type of program would be a fairly simple loop.<BR>
<BR>
Well, once I have made up a usable system, this would indeed be fairly<BR>
easy, I aggree. But one thing at a time. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:00:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
At 03:23 PM 5/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Do you mean Bumper Stickers?  Or something larger?  or smaller?<BR>
<BR>
What I need is circular stickers with the Imperial Sunburst, no more than<BR>
1/4" across.  They're for the Traveller Party at BayCon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:03:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Another strange request<BR>
<BR>
Would a kind soul with both GT and a scanner get me a copy of the portrait<BR>
of Strephon on page 64?  .bmp or .gif preferred.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:11:53 EDT<BR>
From: HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
 Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at either of these events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:19:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:25:51 -0700<BR>
> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
> <BR>
> Glenn Goffin:<BR>
> >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
> <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> > >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . '<BR>
> names.Given<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >name is your first pet's name, surname is the<BR>
> street you<BR>
> > >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
<BR>
I've never had a pet, but if we took the first animal<BR>
I ever had to look after I'd be...<BR>
<BR>
Fudge Catlins.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> <BR>
> My daughter would have a decent one: "Princess<BR>
> Chewonki"  Hmm, she is about<BR>
> to enter her teens.  Perhaps it's time she rolled<BR>
> her first character? :-)<BR>
<BR>
What, you didn't roll one for her as soon as she could<BR>
talk? That's almost child abuse! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Seriously though: I've never had a kid and never met<BR>
anyone who'd want to have a kid with me, but since I'm<BR>
only 17 I suppose this is a good thing. My experience<BR>
with my little brother was that trying to force him to<BR>
play was a bad thing, but when he "spied" on a game<BR>
and found out how much fun it was he was eager.<BR>
<BR>
And _*/NEVER*\_ mention how roleplaying's educational.<BR>
That'll kill all hopes of getting her involved dead.<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:51:34 -0400<BR>
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
> <BR>
> I've always heard it this way:<BR>
> Porn Name:<BR>
>  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
>  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm Hoxer Weston!<BR>
<BR>
> Soap Opera Name:<BR>
>  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
>  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived<BR>
> on.<BR>
<BR>
And in the Great TML Soap Opera I'm Charles Catlins.<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
PS: I'd have thought that it was obvious that stuff<BR>
like "Street" and "Lane" was removed? That's what I did.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:46:19 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
At 06:10 PM 5/9/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> > Sounds great.  Have you considered basing it on FFW?  (I haven't actually<BR>
> > played FFW, so this may not be a practicable suggestion...)  It might be a<BR>
> > place to start from<BR>
><BR>
>No, I have not. Basically because I don't know what FFW is. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Fifth Frontier War.  It's an old GDW game.  Basically large scale strategic <BR>
warfare, sort of a boardgame version of Master of Orion style games (but, <BR>
AFAIK, no tactical level at all).  It's played on a big map of the spinward <BR>
marches.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:43:39 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
At 10:20 PM 5/8/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Yeah, and from what I'm told, it's *not* that hard for the tags that<BR>
>replace the "neat graphics" to be clickable so that the "text based"<BR>
>user can *download* the graphics to display later.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I meant further in my message about "text-friendly" pages.  The <BR>
much bigger difficulty than images is things like frames (and don't even <BR>
get me started on javascript, plugins, flash, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:50:01 -0700<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
Wow....mine would be a strange one indeed:<BR>
<BR>
Either Bagins Pallatine (if you count a dog we had before I remember) or <BR>
Marshmallow Pallatine (if you count the animal I first remember getting).<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
At 10:19 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> > Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:25:51 -0700<BR>
> > From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2407<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Glenn Goffin:<BR>
> > >From: "Karen and Michael Hughes"<BR>
> > <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
> > > >I were a pornb star, my name would be  . . . '<BR>
> > names.Given<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > >name is your first pet's name, surname is the<BR>
> > street you<BR>
> > > >grew up on(go with the first if lots).<BR>
><BR>
>I've never had a pet, but if we took the first animal<BR>
>I ever had to look after I'd be...<BR>
><BR>
>Fudge Catlins.<BR>
><BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
>http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:51:31 -0700<BR>
From: Peter Miller <thegolem@mindless.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > I've always heard it this way:<BR>
> > Porn Name:<BR>
> >  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
> >  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
><BR>
>Now I'm Hoxer Weston!<BR>
<BR>
Ah, now, revised, I'm Frodo Hawkins.<BR>
<BR>
> > Soap Opera Name:<BR>
> >  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
> >  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived<BR>
> > on.<BR>
<BR>
Edward Shelby Pallatine<BR>
<BR>
Thats Dad's middle name, followed by the two streeets I lived on growing up.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
__________________________Peter J. Miller<BR>
thegolem@mindless.com        ICQ #5294589<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Tim Tow <t_pz_t@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Weekly JTAS Table of Contents Posting?<BR>
<BR>
Does it make sense to post the table of contents from<BR>
each week's issue of JTAS to the list?<BR>
<BR>
Pyramid sends a weekly update to subscribers and<BR>
non-subscribers with a summary of the most recent<BR>
articles?<BR>
<BR>
It might tempt some of us die-hards to subscribe.<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 11:13:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Another strange request<BR>
<BR>
At 10:03 AM 5/9/2000, you wrote:<BR>
>Would a kind soul with both GT and a scanner get me a copy of the portrait<BR>
>of Strephon on page 64?  .bmp or .gif preferred.<BR>
<BR>
You guys are fast.  Thanks!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 11:26:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WARNING<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/8/00 11:20 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah, and from what I'm told, it's *not* that hard for the tags that<BR>
> replace the "neat graphics" to be clickable so that the "text based"<BR>
> user can *download* the graphics to display later.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, that doesn't sound like an "alt" tag, could you explain further?<BR>
Offlist might be nice, as it isn't Trav specific.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:46:55 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Help with TML Commands<BR>
<BR>
How do I get a list of subscribers to the TML.  I know it can be <BR>
done but I lost the command to do it.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the help.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:28:02 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: OT: Names<BR>
<BR>
On 05/09/00 at 10:25 AM,  Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>And in the Great TML Soap Opera I'm Charles Catlins.<BR>
<BR>
>PS: I'd have thought that it was obvious that stuff<BR>
>like "Street" and "Lane" was removed? That's what I did.<BR>
<BR>
It could go the other way, too, where you drop the given street name and keep the Lane, Street, etc.  For example, remember Della Street and Lois Lane. <g><BR>
<BR>
I've got a friend that would be Queenie Beaver, now *that's* a porn star name! <weg><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2409<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2410<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Subject: OT: Names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
re:  OT: Names<BR>
re:  OT names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2409<BR>
Request for information  :)<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
Re: Request for information :)<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
Farscape in Australia<BR>
Jenghe<BR>
Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
Re: Jenghe<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 11:55:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/9/00 3:16 AM, Skaran@bigpond.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR>
<BR>
Awesome, and I see you have done some other work since I last dropped by.<BR>
But I had to "open this image" on both the vessel posted and the stargate<BR>
picture as they both aborted loading on the page at about 75% completion.<BR>
I've seen that happen when there are animations or java stuff, but I see<BR>
none of that there. Odd.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:48:39 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
At 20:07 -0400 8/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
<BR>
Liebchen 17, meet Flash Dorking! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:47:53 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Question: Stickers<BR>
<BR>
If you manage to get these, Doug, LMK - I would not mind getting<BR>
a few dozen myself, so perhaps I could reduct your overall<BR>
liquidity exposure here (just finished a three hour finance<BR>
software meeting; I feel like I need a brain enema).<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Do you mean Bumper Stickers?  Or something larger?  or<BR>
smaller?<BR>
><BR>
> What I need is circular stickers with the Imperial Sunburst,<BR>
no more than<BR>
> 1/4" across.  They're for the Traveller Party at BayCon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:35:56 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 9 May 2000 08:48:39 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 20:07 -0400 8/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>>Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
><BR>
>Liebchen 17, meet Flash Dorking! ;-)<BR>
><BR>
That is so not complementary  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Sequel Newlin<BR>
Sequel Amber Valley<BR>
Jasper Leland<BR>
Jasper Mathies<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the<BR>
 lash."                              - Winston Churchill<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 21:33:52 GMT<BR>
From: "Erick ..." <siniypiva@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: OT: Names<BR>
<BR>
>I have the distinct pleasure of coming up as:<BR>
<BR>
>Buster Lake<BR>
<BR>
  Funny, I come up as Buster Cagle, Lance Gilbert, or Jack Citrus<BR>
<BR>
  erick<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:38:35 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 20:07 -0400 8/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
> >Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
> <BR>
> Liebchen 17, meet Flash Dorking! ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Zo..Pleased..To..Meet..You...Flash..<beep><BR>
<BR>
<beep>Hey..bay..bee <bip> Hey..bay..bee<beep><BR>
<BR>
You have GOT to be kidding!!! They name streets 'Dorking' over the<BR>
pond???<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm I feel that a sniglet is coming on, yes, they're called:<BR>
<BR>
Obscenonym: N. An innnocuous word in a foreign language that sounds just<BR>
like something naughty or obscene in yours.<BR>
<BR>
A kid in this country who lived on 'Dorking' street would probably be<BR>
branded for life...at least among the savages I grew up with. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:40:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  OT: Names<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>I have the distinct pleasure of coming up as:<BR>
>Buster Lake<BR>
<BR>
We may have winner.<BR>
<BR>
- --Pickles North Thirty-fourth<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:47:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  OT names<BR>
<BR>
>From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
>> From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>> <BR>
>> My daughter would have a decent one: "Princess<BR>
>>Chewonki"  Hmm, she is about<BR>
>> to enter her teens.  Perhaps it's time she rolled<BR>
>> her first character? :-)<BR>
><BR>
>What, you didn't roll one for her as soon as she could<BR>
>talk? That's almost child abuse! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I have only two complaints, Arthur.  <BR>
<BR>
One, you misattributed the material you cited.  I didn't<BR>
write that; someone who was quoting something I had written<BR>
previously wrote it.  <BR>
<BR>
Two, you didn't use a proper subject line.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:06:00 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
On 9 May 00, at 14:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A kid in this country who lived on 'Dorking' street would probably be<BR>
> branded for life...at least among the savages I grew up with. <BR>
<BR>
Here, too. In the primary school I went to even such things as having <BR>
your mum make your sandwitches with different fillings from the other <BR>
kids was grounds for them to make your life hell.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:27:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
I will be attending on a daily ticket - and so, our favourite game<BR>
will most definately be there. I also suspect BITS will turn up (if<BR>
not, I'll volunteer Andy...promise).<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: 09 May 2000 18:12<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>  Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at<BR>
> either of these events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:33:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at either of these<BR>
events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
<BR>
I'm planning on attending both event.<BR>
Since I'm in St. Louis, Archon is a snap.<BR>
I've been asking around to see if anyone if planning on<BR>
running our Favorite Game (the only true RPG) at<BR>
Archon. If there's no significant response then I may<BR>
run a game or two myself.<BR>
<BR>
As to GenCon - I'm planning to attend, no further details<BR>
yet.<BR>
<BR>
If any of the valiant members of this list elect to attend these<BR>
events, let me know and I'll by the first drink.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton<BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:59:13 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
Moin Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella,<BR>
<BR>
> > http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR>
> <BR>
> Awesome, and I see you have done some other work since I last dropped by.<BR>
> But I had to "open this image" on both the vessel posted and the stargate<BR>
> picture as they both aborted loading on the page at about 75% completion.<BR>
> I've seen that happen when there are animations or java stuff, but I see<BR>
> none of that there. Odd.<BR>
<BR>
  The introduction graphic is realy nice! I had no problem with viewing<BR>
  this side, besides the usual one, that I had to use a the 14" color<BR>
  screen of my PC instead of the 19" black/white of my Sun-ELC where<BR>
  some text parts had been black/black ;-(<BR>
<BR>
  Back to the ship:<BR>
<BR>
	What kind of software was used to produce the picture ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 15:59:33 PDT<BR>
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2409<BR>
<BR>
>From: HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
><BR>
>  Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at either of these <BR>
>events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
<BR>
My wife and I usually attend Archon, and if we do, I'd be more than <BR>
deleriously happy to play/ref GT/MT. As long as the time of the gaming <BR>
doesn't interfere with our filkin, and as long as we don't decide to attend <BR>
OVFF (Ohio Valley Filk Fest).<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:16:31 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Request for information  :)<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  Is there an archive of prior TML digests, posts, etc.?  Also, just <BR>
so I can tell if anyone out there is receiving me....<BR>
<BR>
....segue....<BR>
<BR>
Hello hello hello<BR>
Is there anybody in there?<BR>
Just nod if you can hear me<BR>
Is there anyone at home?<BR>
<BR>
....ahem....anyway<BR>
<BR>
I've asked if anyone has Bruce Macintosh's space combat system.  If you do, <BR>
I'd love to get a copy please.  If not, I'd like to just hear from someone <BR>
so I know if I'm sending ok or not.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
JimC<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:24:04 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
I checked out the GenCon and Origings events book.<BR>
<BR>
GenCon has this entry in RPGS:<BR>
<BR>
"Traveller"<BR>
$2.50  Duration: 3:45  Players: 12<BR>
See RPGA pages for details.  Sponsor:  RPGA Network.<BR>
(A-2)  Plays Thursday Noon  #679.<BR>
<BR>
The RPGA pages don't say much other than something on<BR>
the order of "We play other game, like Traveller, etc., too."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
HighTraveller@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at either of these events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:10:30 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
I must have missed something (No, you think!)  Can someone give me the<BR>
schedule for Gencon/Archon<BR>
this year.  I would love to attend and mix it up with the best of ya!  LMK<BR>
<BR>
Lock and Load, boyz.  It's party time.     <BR>
<BR>
The Colonel<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
>From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
>Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 14:27<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>I will be attending on a daily ticket - and so, our favourite game<BR>
>will most definately be there. I also suspect BITS will turn up (if<BR>
>not, I'll volunteer Andy...promise).<BR>
><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
>> HighTraveller@aol.com<BR>
>> Sent: 09 May 2000 18:12<BR>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>> Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>  Does anyone know if our favorite game will be offered at<BR>
>> either of these events? Is anyone planning to attend?<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:52:11 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
At 06:10 PM 5/9/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Juliean Galak schrieb:<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
> > Sounds great.  Have you considered basing it on FFW?  (I haven't actually<BR>
> > played FFW, so this may not be a practicable suggestion...)  It might be a<BR>
> > place to start from<BR>
><BR>
>No, I have not. Basically because I don't know what FFW is. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
> > There is another problem - Different fleet compositions work differently.<BR>
> > Example:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ship Class  VOAV<BR>
> > BB              50<BR>
> > CA              30<BR>
> > DD              10<BR>
> ><BR>
> > So using straight VOAVs, Two BB, 6 CA, and 12 DD (400) is about the same as<BR>
> > 8 BB.  However, "conventional" wisdom say that you should put ships into a<BR>
> > "task group" type setting.  OTOH, Traveller's "'Ron" approach say group<BR>
> > them by type.  This issue of fleet composition needs to be taken into <BR>
> account.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually I intended to let this up to those who use the system: Say, you<BR>
>have a total loss of 33%<BR>
>of your VOAV for the entire fleet. The one who choses which ships are<BR>
>actaully concerned can go many different ways: For example, assign a 33%<BR>
>loss to any vessel, or completely eliminate some vessels while<BR>
>protecting others. This is rather abstract, but fits the "task force"<BR>
>concept. You can sacrifice smaller vessels completely (which is part of<BR>
>their role, after all) and have a few fully undamaged dreadnoughts<BR>
>afterward, with no wounded, no ships to be repaired- or you can damage<BR>
>he larger ships (which have more VOAV) but let the smaller ones be<BR>
>rather untouched (though this would be economic nonsense to do, but it<BR>
>may make sense if you have to claim "no ships lost in battle"). Etc, pp.<BR>
>And when I manage to take into account that some weapons systems are<BR>
>extremely usefull against some defensives and useless against others, we<BR>
>could end up with a system that is, though a bit abstract, quite<BR>
>realistic in its results. (Perhaps one could use something like that to<BR>
>simulate parts of the civil war?)<BR>
<BR>
This set-up sounds very similar to the wargame Federation and Empire that <BR>
Task Force Games (used to)? put out. If you can find it somewhere it could <BR>
help you with some of the mechanics. Modeling specific weapons systems <BR>
damage should prove to be the hard part.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:23:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
<BR>
Hi Jim receiving you loud and clear. I had a copy of Bruce's SCS but<BR>
lost it in a hard drive crash. Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: jim clem <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Request for information :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all.  Is there an archive of prior TML digests, posts, etc.?  Also,<BR>
just<BR>
> so I can tell if anyone out there is receiving me....<BR>
><BR>
> ....segue....<BR>
><BR>
> Hello hello hello<BR>
> Is there anybody in there?<BR>
> Just nod if you can hear me<BR>
> Is there anyone at home?<BR>
><BR>
> ....ahem....anyway<BR>
><BR>
> I've asked if anyone has Bruce Macintosh's space combat system.  If you<BR>
do,<BR>
> I'd love to get a copy please.  If not, I'd like to just hear from someone<BR>
> so I know if I'm sending ok or not.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks<BR>
><BR>
> JimC<BR>
> ________________________________________________________________________<BR>
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:27:38 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A mass ship combat system for GT<BR>
<BR>
This set-up sounds very similar to the wargame Federation and Empire that<BR>
Task Force Games (used to)? put out. If you can find it somewhere it could<BR>
help you with some of the mechanics. Modeling specific weapons systems<BR>
damage should prove to be the hard part.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
======<BR>
<BR>
Federation and Empire is now marketed by the Amarillo Design Bureau.  They <BR>
were the creators of F&E and SFB, but Task Force marketed it.  Now ADB has <BR>
gained total rights to both games.  Do a search for Star Fleet Battles, and <BR>
you'll find their site easily enough.<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 17:32:55 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information :)<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:23:44 -0700<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi Jim receiving you loud and clear. I had a copy of Bruce's SCS but<BR>
lost it in a hard drive crash. Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
===========Heh, so did I.  Lost a lot of game stuff that way.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Has anyone run an adventure where the players are trying to get <BR>
hold of software for someone.<BR>
<BR>
"Aye m'lord, our Windows 1108 has crashed.  P'raps some poor foo....er, <BR>
adventurous souls could recover a copy from the Imperial Microsoft archives? <BR>
  Pah, never mind those ancient defenses, tis worth a try I believe!"<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:18:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> At 20:07 -0400 8/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
wrote:<BR>
>> >Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
>><BR>
>> Liebchen 17, meet Flash Dorking! ;-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dom<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>You have GOT to be kidding!!! They name streets 'Dorking' over the<BR>
>pond???<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sure, Dorking is a town in the south of England.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>A kid in this country who lived on 'Dorking' street would probably be<BR>
>branded for life...at least among the savages I grew up with.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
When I was at University in Southampton the Campus and some of the Halls of<BR>
Residence were right next to a council housing estate known as the 'Flowers'<BR>
estate due to all the streets in it being the names of flowers. It had a<BR>
reputation as being the roughest estate in Southampton, and students would<BR>
regularly be beaten up or threatened.  After all, wouldn't *you* be<BR>
resentful if you were poor and lived on 'Pansy Road'...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:20:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 09 May 2000 23:19<BR>
Subject: RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I will be attending on a daily ticket - and so, our favourite game<BR>
>will most definately be there. I also suspect BITS will turn up (if<BR>
>not, I'll volunteer Andy...promise).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Different GenCon. You're thinking of GenCon UK, not the US one.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:25:50 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <BR>
> > Think Bruce Sterling or John Varley, instead of Jerry Pournelle or<BR>
> > Poul Anderson.  Still SF, but very different in tone.<BR>
> <BR>
> Let's hope Greg Bear or Vernor Vinge rather than Sterling and Varley.<BR>
<BR>
<bouncing up and down> Ken Macleod! Ken Macleod!<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:25:58 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Farscape in Australia<BR>
<BR>
There was an ad for Farscape on last night, with a date!<BR>
<BR>
It's supposed to be starting on May 20, on Channel 9.  Still no time yet.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:32:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Jenghe<BR>
<BR>
ISTR someone was asking if there was any canon stuff about Jenghe.  I ran<BR>
into the following by accident while looking through Twilight's Peak again.<BR>
<BR>
"The major starman's bar on Jenghe, just outside the gate of the starport,<BR>
is the Planetfall Liberty, on the ground floor of a large octagonal-shaped<BR>
building.  This octagon covers the whole block and also houses offices and<BR>
apartments.<BR>
<BR>
The bartender at the Planetfall Liberty will discuss the building and its<BR>
history as long as the group continues to buy drinks.  This octagon was<BR>
once a distressed spacefarer's shelter, built and operated by the Octagon<BR>
Society.  They built big ones like these on the major worlds (there used to<BR>
be one on Regina; there still are ones on Feri and Wochiers) and smaller<BR>
frontier shelters on the other worlds of this end of the Marches.  They<BR>
once had plans to build shelters all through the Imperium, but the society<BR>
fell on hard times and dissolved about three hundred years ago."<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:06:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: jim clem <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
>I've asked if anyone has Bruce Macintosh's space combat system.  If you do,<BR>
>I'd love to get a copy please.  If not, I'd like to just hear from someone<BR>
>so I know if I'm sending ok or not.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
All I can find is a link to Bruces definitive sensor rules, which have<BR>
application to combat... I don't know if that is what you wanted, but the<BR>
URL is:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/house/sensor.rules.html<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:16:13 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jenghe<BR>
<BR>
Thank you!<BR>
<BR>
I will add it to the site I'm working on.  Slowly.  (I've been <BR>
shanghai'd too often lately to do other stuff.)<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.europa.com/~raller/jenghe><BR>
<BR>
>ISTR someone was asking if there was any canon stuff about Jenghe.  I ran<BR>
>into the following by accident while looking through Twilight's Peak again.<BR>
><BR>
>"The major starman's bar on Jenghe, just outside the gate of the starport,<BR>
>is the Planetfall Liberty, on the ground floor of a large octagonal-shaped<BR>
>building.  This octagon covers the whole block and also houses offices and<BR>
>apartments.<BR>
><BR>
>The bartender at the Planetfall Liberty will discuss the building and its<BR>
>history as long as the group continues to buy drinks.  This octagon was<BR>
>once a distressed spacefarer's shelter, built and operated by the Octagon<BR>
>Society.  They built big ones like these on the major worlds (there used to<BR>
>be one on Regina; there still are ones on Feri and Wochiers) and smaller<BR>
>frontier shelters on the other worlds of this end of the Marches.  They<BR>
>once had plans to build shelters all through the Imperium, but the society<BR>
>fell on hard times and dissolved about three hundred years ago."<BR>
><BR>
>Alan Bradley<BR>
>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2410<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2411</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 10 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2411<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
Re: Request for information :)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
In case you were wondering...<BR>
Conventions<BR>
Re: 2300 AD NOT owned by Sanger<BR>
Question on superdense<BR>
RE: In case you were wondering...<BR>
Re: Question on superdense<BR>
Re: Question on superdense<BR>
Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Trav Art<BR>
Re: Question on superdense<BR>
Re: Farscape in Australia<BR>
RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Question on superdense<BR>
RE: OT Names<BR>
Request (was: A mass ship combat system for GT)<BR>
RE: Question on superdense<BR>
Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:47:54 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information  :)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/09/00 at 04:16 PM,  "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all.  Is there an archive of prior TML digests, posts, etc.?  Also,<BR>
>just  so I can tell if anyone out there is receiving me....<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but I think it's moved from ftp.mpgn.com to some place else. Anyone know?<BR>
<BR>
"Jim, you posts aren't dead!"<BR>
<BR>
>....segue....<BR>
<BR>
>Hello hello hello<BR>
>Is there anybody in there?<BR>
>Just nod if you can hear me<BR>
>Is there anyone at home?<BR>
<BR>
Ahhhhhhhh!<BR>
<BR>
>....ahem....anyway<BR>
<BR>
>I've asked if anyone has Bruce Macintosh's space combat system.  If you<BR>
>do,  I'd love to get a copy please.  If not, I'd like to just hear from<BR>
>someone  so I know if I'm sending ok or not.<BR>
<BR>
I get the impression that Bruce doesn't really want his space combat system out and about at this time. There have be lots of requests for it and, AFAIK, it hasn't shown up anywhere. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:42:04 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Request for information :)<BR>
<BR>
On: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:16:31 PDT<BR>
"jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Said:<BR>
<<<BR>
Hi all.  Is there an archive of prior TML digests, posts, etc.?  Also, just<BR>
so I can tell if anyone out there is receiving me....<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
You can request recent issues of the TML digest from the listserver.<BR>
Simply send an email to:<BR>
<BR>
majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
and in the text of the message (NOT THE SUBJECT LINE) say:<BR>
<BR>
get traveller-digest v1999.n2256<BR>
<BR>
(substituting the volume and issue you require).<BR>
<BR>
The listserver then sends the requested archive to you as an email.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Things are always darkest before they go completely black.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:35:18 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
Peter Miller wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > > I've always heard it this way:<BR>
> > > Porn Name:<BR>
> > >  - First:  first gender-appropriate pet name<BR>
> > >  - Last:  mother's maiden name<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Now I'm Hoxer Weston!<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, now, revised, I'm Frodo Hawkins.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
And I become Spike Fuller. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> > > Soap Opera Name:<BR>
> > >  - First:  your parent's middle name<BR>
> > >  - Last: the best-sounding streetname you've lived<BR>
> > > on.<BR>
> <BR>
> Edward Shelby Pallatine<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Alan Kentford. Your options are pretty limited when you don't move<BR>
around much.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:47:00 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2408<BR>
<BR>
At 04:35 PM 5/9/00 -1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Alan Kentford. Your options are pretty limited when you don't move<BR>
>around much.<BR>
<BR>
Or don't have many pets - Sonar, Cookie, and Ginger.  Two of them are the <BR>
wrong gender (although appropriate to that gender) and the other one <BR>
doesn't even sound like a name (for a human that is.  the rabbit seems <BR>
satisfied with it.)<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 04:58:24 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
Moin Alan Bradley,<BR>
<BR>
> <bouncing up and down> Ken Macleod! Ken Macleod!<BR>
<BR>
  are you talking about the same Ken MacLeod who is contributing to<BR>
  the Perl XML framework. I'm working with him for 2 years, but I did'nt<BR>
  know yet that he's a traveller fan. If yes, I should base my next<BR>
  "Gushemege Merchantile Guild Survey" on XML ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:13:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: In case you were wondering...<BR>
<BR>
why I needed that picture of Strephon:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/party1.gif<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:28:00 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Conventions<BR>
<BR>
Only one I'll be attending this summer is Dragon*Con in Atlanta, 4th of July <BR>
weekend. A large turnout of fandom would convince the con organizers their <BR>
subsidy to fly me there as a guest was well-spent . . .   ;  )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:35:00 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: 2300 AD NOT owned by Sanger<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-07 20:25:41 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<<   This might be interesting. AFAIC, it also puts to rest the rather<BR>
 fantastic rumours/suggestions that SJG should/has wanted to license<BR>
 2300 AD from Mr. Sanger.  >><BR>
<BR>
Did anybody spreading these rumors ever think to ask me? Sanger does not own <BR>
2300 AD -- the same folks who own Twilight: 2000 and Dark COnspiracy do.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:49:10 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
like?  Shiny?  Matte?  Does it rust?  What are your opinions on the matter?<BR>
Asking because of some artwork ideas floating in my head for "RoF" & beyond.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:57:23 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: In case you were wondering...<BR>
<BR>
Cool :)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 1:13 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: In case you were wondering...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> why I needed that picture of Strephon:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/party1.gif<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:12:41 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
At 08:49 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
>like?  Shiny?  Matte?  Does it rust?  What are your opinions on the matter?<BR>
>Asking because of some artwork ideas floating in my head for "RoF" & beyond.<BR>
<BR>
I've always visualized it as a kind of matte gray, almost like brushed <BR>
steel but less shiny, with strange patterns (the bonding...) in it.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, IMTU all ships are painted with a digitally controlled "paint" that <BR>
allows one to program it to look like whatever you want (this isn't the <BR>
same as chameleon.  The additional sensors and computing for that have to <BR>
be paid for separately).  On civilian ships, certain aspects of that (the <BR>
registration number, the ship's name) are non-alterable, just like the <BR>
transponder.<BR>
<BR>
Military ships set it to whatever they want - space black for real ops, to <BR>
reduce chance of detection, or bright, squadron-specific "parade" colors <BR>
for when they need to look good for the cameras.<BR>
<BR>
I include the cost of the paint in the hull cost.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:35:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
All ships should be haze gray (and underway), of course.  Cleats and anchors<BR>
optional. :-p<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty Old Seadog<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
> like?  Shiny?  Matte?  Does it rust?  What are your opinions on the<BR>
matter?<BR>
> Asking because of some artwork ideas floating in my head for "RoF" &<BR>
beyond.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:35:11 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Recently, in one of my campaigns the PCs were discharged from the<BR>
Scouts.  Now they have become Traders/Smugglers.  One of the players<BR>
wanted to get medical insurance in case they got into "trouble" and<BR>
needed to be hospitalized (rowdy group of players).<BR>
<BR>
Would an interstellar insurance company be plausible? If so, how much<BR>
would an average plan cost?<BR>
<BR>
How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller? <BR>
Has there been any canon references to this?<BR>
<BR>
Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
& costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:47:43 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
At 10:35 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Recently, in one of my campaigns the PCs were discharged from the<BR>
>Scouts.  Now they have become Traders/Smugglers.  One of the players<BR>
>wanted to get medical insurance in case they got into "trouble" and<BR>
>needed to be hospitalized (rowdy group of players).<BR>
><BR>
>Would an interstellar insurance company be plausible? If so, how much<BR>
>would an average plan cost?<BR>
><BR>
>How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller?<BR>
>Has there been any canon references to this?<BR>
><BR>
>Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
>& costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
No hard knowledge but some ideas:<BR>
<BR>
Any megacorp, especially one that specializes in finances, is in a position <BR>
to provide such insurance.  How much of an HMO effect you get from this <BR>
(no, you can only use our hospitals.  no, we don't cover that, it's a <BR>
pre-existing condition.  no, we don't cover gunshot wounds.  etc....) is up <BR>
to the GM of course...<BR>
<BR>
Self insurance is a possibility - all of the crewmembers pitch in some <BR>
cash, convert it to imperial credit, and agree not to use it except for <BR>
medical cases.  Of course, when you need just a bit of cash to do that <BR>
annual upgrade (you know, the one you missed last year...) or repair the <BR>
jump drive (which will _probably_ make it to the next port), having that <BR>
ready cash is awful tempting...  Perhaps "gift certificates" that are valid <BR>
at specific hospitals are available.  That would take away the temptation, <BR>
but introduce all sorts of possibilities for black market trading in them...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:20:40 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Trav Art<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have links to sites with Traveller (esp TNE) artwork they could<BR>
point me at? Private email would be best.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:22:16 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:49 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Jesse wrote:<BR>
> >Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
> >like?  Shiny?  Matte?  Does it rust?  What are your opinions on the matter?<BR>
> >Asking because of some artwork ideas floating in my head for "RoF" & beyond.<BR>
<BR>
The term begs the question:  superdense what?  The next lower<BR>
'tough' material is crystaliron.  So, it makes sense for superdense<BR>
to be iron-based.  That would give a spectrum of black to light<BR>
grey.  Of course, you can make it anything you want.<BR>
<BR>
Given its dense nature, sd might well be shiny.  At least when<BR>
new.  Exposure to vacuum, solar dust and micro-meteors might<BR>
well roughen the surface up a bit.  Assuming this could happen,<BR>
another question is if this would be visible to human eyes at all,<BR>
until it gets to the catastrophic level, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Rust is the effect of oxidization.  So outside of an atmosphere,<BR>
it shouldn't be possible (high school science there, others will<BR>
know for sure).  But if you've got a bare superdense hull sitting<BR>
stranded in an atmosphere for a long time, it could well have<BR>
some rust.  If it had suffered damage to give it a roughened up<BR>
texture, it might rust better, because it would hold moisture<BR>
better (thus, more oxidization).  However, thats just a<BR>
rationalization on my part in case you want a rusted hull.<BR>
I would hope that future TLs would avoid the possibility<BR>
of rust altogether.<BR>
<BR>
> I've always visualized it as a kind of matte gray, almost like brushed<BR>
> steel but less shiny, with strange patterns (the bonding...) in it.<BR>
<BR>
Um . . . the "bonded" in "bonded superdense" refers to<BR>
"electon bonding", not the patterns from folding Damascan<BR>
steel many times when forging a sword, which does leave<BR>
patterns.  Nor like the bond in Denture Bond.<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, IMTU all ships are painted with a digitally controlled "paint" that<BR>
> allows one to program it to look like whatever you want (this isn't the<BR>
> same as chameleon.  The additional sensors and computing for that have to<BR>
> be paid for separately).  On civilian ships, certain aspects of that (the<BR>
> registration number, the ship's name) are non-alterable, just like the<BR>
> transponder.<BR>
><BR>
> Military ships set it to whatever they want - space black for real ops, to<BR>
> reduce chance of detection, or bright, squadron-specific "parade" colors<BR>
> for when they need to look good for the cameras.<BR>
><BR>
> I include the cost of the paint in the hull cost.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like the OTU to me.<BR>
<BR>
From FFS2, p.65:<BR>
<BR>
"Hull Coatings:<BR>
A normal starship hull at TL 10+ is equipped (at no extra<BR>
cost) with a color-changing coating.  Normally used by<BR>
merchants for advertising purposes, in combat situations<BR>
the coating is set to moderate (99%) black to reduce<BR>
emitted signature.  The signature calculated elsewhere for<BR>
vehicles assumes the hull is set to moderate black.  'Bare<BR>
metal' (or painted non-black) hulls get a discount on hull<BR>
price of 50Cr/m^3.  At TL 8-9, all hulls are bare metal<BR>
(with no discount).  A TL 8-9 hull may be permanently<BR>
painted black at a cost of MCr 0.01 per m^3.  At TL 11+,<BR>
the color-changing coating can be enhanced to a 'military<BR>
black hull.'  This costs MCr 0.01 per m^3 of hull.  At<BR>
TL 13+, military ultrablack hulls become available, costing<BR>
MCr 0.1 per m^3 of hull."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 02:24:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Farscape in Australia<BR>
<BR>
Isn't it made in Australia?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There was an ad for Farscape on last night, with a date!<BR>
><BR>
> It's supposed to be starting on May 20, on Channel 9.  Still no time yet.<BR>
><BR>
> Alan Bradley<BR>
> alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:12:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
At 21:16 -0400 9/5/00,  "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>I will be attending on a daily ticket - and so, our favourite game<BR>
>will most definately be there. I also suspect BITS will turn up (if<BR>
>not, I'll volunteer Andy...promise).<BR>
<BR>
That's GenCon UK we're talking about. Sadly BITS funds don't stretch <BR>
to a flight across the pond.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:14:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GENCON/ARCHON<BR>
<BR>
At 21:16 -0400 9/5/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>GenCon has this entry in RPGS:<BR>
><BR>
>"Traveller"<BR>
>$2.50  Duration: 3:45  Players: 12<BR>
>See RPGA pages for details.  Sponsor:  RPGA Network.<BR>
>(A-2)  Plays Thursday Noon  #679.<BR>
><BR>
>The RPGA pages don't say much other than something on<BR>
>the order of "We play other game, like Traveller, etc., too."<BR>
<BR>
GenCon UK has three official Traveller tournaments. There's a <BR>
challenge for the American TMLrs...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:17:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
At 21:16 -0400 9/5/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>When I was at University in Southampton the Campus and some of the Halls of<BR>
>Residence were right next to a council housing estate known as the 'Flowers'<BR>
>estate due to all the streets in it being the names of flowers. It had a<BR>
>reputation as being the roughest estate in Southampton, and students would<BR>
>regularly be beaten up or threatened.  After all, wouldn't *you* be<BR>
>resentful if you were poor and lived on 'Pansy Road'...<BR>
<BR>
Next thing you'll tell me that there are Halls of Residence called <BR>
Glen Eyre, Terrace and Chamberlain? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (Southampton 1991-1995 MEng Mechanical)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:35:26 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All ships should be haze gray (and underway), of course.  Cleats and anchors<BR>
> optional. :-p<BR>
<BR>
But, Bollards aren't.<BR>
<BR>
An Even crustier old Shellback.<BR>
<BR>
BTW.... The stocking number for haze gray is 2256.... Damn the things that<BR>
stick.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:06:05 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: SD Mooney [mailto:dom@cybergoths.u-net.com]<BR>
> >When I was at University in Southampton the Campus and some <BR>
> of the Halls of<BR>
> >Residence were right next to a council housing estate known <BR>
> as the 'Flowers'<BR>
<snip><BR>
> <BR>
> Next thing you'll tell me that there are Halls of Residence called <BR>
> Glen Eyre, Terrace and Chamberlain? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
1991-2: J82, The Terrace, Glen Eyre Halls. <g><BR>
<BR>
> Dom (Southampton 1991-1995 MEng Mechanical)<BR>
<BR>
Matt (Southampton 1991-1994 BA Archaeology... small world! <g>)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:51:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Request (was: A mass ship combat system for GT)<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> At 06:10 PM 5/9/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> > > Sounds great.  Have you considered basing it on FFW?  (I <BR>
> > > haven't actually played FFW, so this may not be a<BR>
> > > practicable suggestion...)  It might be a place to start<BR>
> > > from<BR>
> ><BR>
> > No, I have not. Basically because I don't know what FFW is. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fifth Frontier War.  It's an old GDW game.  Basically large <BR>
> scale strategic warfare, sort of a boardgame version of Master<BR>
> of Orion style games (but, AFAIK, no tactical level at all).<BR>
> It's played on a big map of the spinward marches.<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering  if  people  could  use  the  abrieviation  "5FW"<BR>
instead of "FFW" ... a minor point I know but I'm never  sure  if<BR>
you mean the 1st , 4th, or 5th FW.  (Okay,  I  can  usually  tell<BR>
from the context its used ... but not always.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:53:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jesse<BR>
> DeGraff<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 May 2000 7:49 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Question on superdense<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
> like?  Shiny?  Matte?  Does it rust?  What are your opinions on<BR>
> the matter?<BR>
> Asking because of some artwork ideas floating in my head for<BR>
> "RoF" & beyond.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
In Adventure 1 Kinunir one of the hulls is lying in a shipyard and is<BR>
described as rust coloured. So I guess this means the hulls can rust. It<BR>
also implies that some of this class were built on planetary surfaces.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:53:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Satyr class scout<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
Moin Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella,<BR>
<BR>
> > http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR>
><BR>
> Awesome, and I see you have done some other work since I last dropped by.<BR>
> But I had to "open this image" on both the vessel posted and the stargate<BR>
> picture as they both aborted loading on the page at about 75% completion.<BR>
> I've seen that happen when there are animations or java stuff, but I see<BR>
> none of that there. Odd.<BR>
<BR>
  The introduction graphic is realy nice! I had no problem with viewing<BR>
  this side, besides the usual one, that I had to use a the 14" color<BR>
  screen of my PC instead of the 19" black/white of my Sun-ELC where<BR>
  some text parts had been black/black ;-(<BR>
<BR>
  Back to the ship:<BR>
<BR>
	What kind of software was used to produce the picture ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
The ship was done using Bryce 2.1 which I obtained esentially free with an<BR>
issue of PC Format. The bit map generated was then "played with" using Corel<BR>
Paint. I think this is my best design yet, especially compared to my first<BR>
with this program (the Chevron class destroyer)<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2411<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2412</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 10 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2412<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Question on superdense<BR>
Vs: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
RE: 2300 AD NOT owned by Sanger<BR>
RE: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
RE: OT Names<BR>
Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
ACQ/101 Patrons<BR>
Re: ACQ/101 Patrons<BR>
re:  Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
re:  Question on superdense<BR>
re:  Request <BR>
Technology Marches On<BR>
Musings on superdense metals<BR>
RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:52:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At 20:07 -0400 8/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>> >Mine is Liebchen 17...more like a sex droid than a porn star...:-/<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Liebchen 17, meet Flash Dorking! ;-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Dom<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> Zo..Pleased..To..Meet..You...Flash..<beep><BR>
><BR>
> <beep>Hey..bay..bee <bip> Hey..bay..bee<beep><BR>
><BR>
> You have GOT to be kidding!!! They name streets 'Dorking' over the<BR>
> pond???<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm I feel that a sniglet is coming on, yes, they're called:<BR>
><BR>
> Obscenonym: N. An innnocuous word in a foreign language that sounds just<BR>
> like something naughty or obscene in yours.<BR>
><BR>
> A kid in this country who lived on 'Dorking' street would probably be<BR>
> branded for life...at least among the savages I grew up with. <BR>
<BR>
There's a beer or wine (some sort of alcoholic beverage) in Belgium<BR>
that's of so-so quality, but sells *very* well to American tourists...<BR>
<BR>
Wignand Focking...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:20:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
Do  you put the non-skid on those on the inside or outside of the ship?<BR>
<BR>
Another Crusty old Shellback<BR>
<BR>
And there ain't nothing moving on the ship to grease!<BR>
<BR>
>>> Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> 05/10/00 12:35AM >>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All ships should be haze gray (and underway), of course.  Cleats and anchors<BR>
> optional. :-p<BR>
<BR>
But, Bollards aren't.<BR>
<BR>
An Even crustier old Shellback.<BR>
<BR>
BTW.... The stocking number for haze gray is 2256.... Damn the things that<BR>
stick.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/ <BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:36:08 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:42 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  It's interesting to see younger<BR>
> players turn up their noses at the old adventures and games in favor of<BR>
> their story-telling games like Vampire, Amber, and so on. But where would<BR>
> those gamers be if those old adventures and games hadn't pioneered the<BR>
> way...<BR>
<BR>
On the subject of Vampire being the ultimate in storytelling and farthest from dungeon crawls; some 4-5 months ago I played a rerelease of an old Vampire adventure (Diablerie in Glasgow or something similar...). Frankly the adventure was the most linear dungeon hack I've ever played. Traps and monsters in a cavern with just one possible route. Entertaining, but not something I'd call storytelling...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:23:20 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
<BR>
In message <NBBBJKINCLFIBJKIEJFFMEKGCLAA.Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.<BR>
se>, Jonas Karlsson <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se> writes<BR>
>ObTrav: Having innocuous words in one language mean something quite<BR>
>different in another can certainly cause interesting misunderstandings.<BR>
>F'rinstance, the Kazak word for the color blue is Kuk, which (if read as<BR>
>Swedish) means something akin to (to continue in a Montypythonian vein) that<BR>
>good friend of Pilate that goes under the unfortunate moniker of "Biggus<BR>
>Dickus". ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I knew a Dane whose surname, much to the amusement of a Swedish<BR>
colleague, was "Bindeballe".  She said it sounded like "tied-up<BR>
testicles" to her.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:36:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: 2300 AD NOT owned by Sanger<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> Did anybody spreading these rumors ever think to ask me? <BR>
> Sanger does not own <BR>
> 2300 AD -- the same folks who own Twilight: 2000 and Dark <BR>
> COnspiracy do.<BR>
<BR>
- - 2300AD fans have to  acknowledge  the  copyright  ownership  by<BR>
  Tantalus Inc on their fan web pages.<BR>
<BR>
- - Dark Conspiracy  appears  to  be  currently  published  by  DPI<BR>
  (Dynasty Presentations Inc) under licence from Dark  Conspiracy<BR>
  Enterprises.  (The president of DPI is Ken Whitman.)<BR>
<BR>
So who owns Twilight:2000 ... and if Dark Conspiracy was sold  on<BR>
with ruleset then what does that mean for other former GDW titles<BR>
with the house rules?<BR>
<BR>
Also, who owns GDW's Third World War series wargames?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:37:52 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Morality of "Heros"<BR>
<BR>
Any game's hack quotient is only as little or as large as the people playing<BR>
it make it.  Some of the most thoughtful sessions I've ever run were in D&D,<BR>
and some of the most stillted, unoriginal gaming has been in White Wolf<BR>
games.  <BR>
You don't have to be in a game written in the last 10 years to grapple with<BR>
moral issues, you just have to have some players willing to entertain the<BR>
notion.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jussi Kenkkil [mailto:Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi]<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
<BR>
>  It's interesting to see younger<BR>
> players turn up their noses at the old adventures and games in favor of<BR>
> their story-telling games like Vampire, Amber, and so on. But where would<BR>
> those gamers be if those old adventures and games hadn't pioneered the<BR>
> way...<BR>
<BR>
On the subject of Vampire being the ultimate in storytelling and farthest<BR>
from dungeon crawls; some 4-5 months ago I played a rerelease of an old<BR>
Vampire adventure (Diablerie in Glasgow or something similar...). Frankly<BR>
the adventure was the most linear dungeon hack I've ever played. Traps and<BR>
monsters in a cavern with just one possible route. Entertaining, but not<BR>
something I'd call storytelling...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:24:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, most of the policies are provided either by mega-corps for their<BR>
employees (and megacorp facilities must be used) or by local government. At<BR>
Starports, medical care for accidents/trauma is subsidized, but in case of<BR>
crimes, the attacker gets charged (if he/she/it) can be identified and held.<BR>
Also, it's pricy, but the TAS provides the equivelent of travellers (no pun<BR>
intended) insurance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:48 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 10:35 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Recently, in one of my campaigns the PCs were discharged from the<BR>
> >Scouts.  Now they have become Traders/Smugglers.  One of the players<BR>
> >wanted to get medical insurance in case they got into "trouble" and<BR>
> >needed to be hospitalized (rowdy group of players).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Would an interstellar insurance company be plausible? If so, how much<BR>
> >would an average plan cost?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller?<BR>
> >Has there been any canon references to this?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
> >& costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
><BR>
> No hard knowledge but some ideas:<BR>
><BR>
> Any megacorp, especially one that specializes in finances, is in<BR>
> a position<BR>
> to provide such insurance.  How much of an HMO effect you get from this<BR>
> (no, you can only use our hospitals.  no, we don't cover that, it's a<BR>
> pre-existing condition.  no, we don't cover gunshot wounds.<BR>
> etc....) is up<BR>
> to the GM of course...<BR>
><BR>
> Self insurance is a possibility - all of the crewmembers pitch in some<BR>
> cash, convert it to imperial credit, and agree not to use it except for<BR>
> medical cases.  Of course, when you need just a bit of cash to do that<BR>
> annual upgrade (you know, the one you missed last year...) or repair the<BR>
> jump drive (which will _probably_ make it to the next port), having that<BR>
> ready cash is awful tempting...  Perhaps "gift certificates" that<BR>
> are valid<BR>
> at specific hospitals are available.  That would take away the<BR>
> temptation,<BR>
> but introduce all sorts of possibilities for black market trading<BR>
> in them...<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                           			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:54:16 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
At 12:24 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Also, it's pricy, but the TAS provides the equivelent of travellers (no pun<BR>
>intended) insurance.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I really like that.  TAS seems to be the natural source for such <BR>
services, especially if the character want to avoid megacorp <BR>
entanglements.  I think that from now on, IMTU this will be a free service <BR>
to TAS members.  Of course, you have to make it to be near a TAS hostel to <BR>
get funding.  They'll be happy to reimburse you afterwards, of course, but <BR>
when you need the emergency service at a class D starport...  well, you'd <BR>
just better have plenty of cash...:)<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:51:58 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
At 11:01 -0400 10/5/00, Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>1991-2: J82, The Terrace, Glen Eyre Halls. <g><BR>
<BR>
1991-1992 A8, The Terrace, Glen Eyre Halls... <g><BR>
<BR>
> > Dom (Southampton 1991-1995 MEng Mechanical)<BR>
>Matt (Southampton 1991-1994 BA Archaeology... small world! <g>)<BR>
<BR>
Getting smaller! I thought I recognised you at Hebden Bridge!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:47:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: (SJG's) [Pyramid]<BR>
<BR>
At 11:01 -0400 10/5/00, Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de> wrote:<BR>
> > <bouncing up and down> Ken Macleod! Ken Macleod!<BR>
><BR>
>  are you talking about the same Ken MacLeod who is contributing to<BR>
>  the Perl XML framework. I'm working with him for 2 years, but I did'nt<BR>
>  know yet that he's a traveller fan. If yes, I should base my next<BR>
>  "Gushemege Merchantile Guild Survey" on XML ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.<BR>
  He doesn't write S novels too does he?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:28:13 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: ACQ/101 Patrons<BR>
<BR>
Good news and not so good news. Warehouse 23 (http://www.warehouse23.com)<BR>
has a few copies of At Close Quarters for sale, but we won't be getting the<BR>
full shipment for a week or two, so unless you want to flood the system<BR>
with backorders, you will need to be patient for a little longer. Also, 101<BR>
Patrons is not expected to be available through W23 for 4 weeks, so the<BR>
same advice applies.<BR>
<BR>
As Hannibal (Lector) says:"all things come  to he who waits"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:44:20 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ACQ/101 Patrons<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 10 May 2000 13:28:13 -0600, Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Good news and not so good news. Warehouse 23 (http://www.warehouse23.com)<BR>
> has a few copies of At Close Quarters for sale, but we won't be getting the<BR>
> full shipment for a week or two, so unless you want to flood the system<BR>
> with backorders, you will need to be patient for a little longer. Also, 101<BR>
> Patrons is not expected to be available through W23 for 4 weeks, so the<BR>
> same advice applies.<BR>
<BR>
Woo hoo!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
A procrastinator's work is never done.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:25:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
>From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
<BR>
Here's how I approach it (which doesn't directly answer<BR>
your question).  <BR>
<BR>
First, medical care is not generally as expensive in the<BR>
Far Future as it is today.  Advances in medical<BR>
understanding and a paradigm shift that deploys treatment<BR>
methodologies appropriate to particular problems have<BR>
alleviated the need for massive outlays of capital to deal<BR>
with medical issues.  For example, treatments that help the<BR>
body heal itself, rather than that try to intervene between<BR>
the body and some pathogen, are generally cheaper (at least<BR>
in the far future).  Trauma treatment is still fairly<BR>
capital-intensive, dealing as it does with machines to<BR>
rebuild destroyed body parts and so on.  Diagnostic<BR>
technology also becomes smaller and cheaper over time. <BR>
Medical education remains long and arduous.  <BR>
<BR>
Imperial Retirees Medical Insurance<BR>
The Imperial government provides lifetime medical insurance<BR>
for all retired employees of Imperial service (not just<BR>
uniformed service).  That insurance covers all medically<BR>
necessary expenses, whether incurred inside or outside the<BR>
Imperium.  <BR>
<BR>
The insured may pay the bill and submit the receipt for<BR>
reimbursement or, the medical service provider may bill the<BR>
Imperial insurance entity directly if an agreement already<BR>
exists (which often runs through the government of a member<BR>
state).  <BR>
<BR>
Local Issues<BR>
On many worlds, medical care is free or nearly so, and<BR>
available to anyone in need, because it is subsidized by<BR>
the local government.  The Imperial Ministry of<BR>
Colonization provides some subsidies in this regard in<BR>
appropriate situations.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:28:23 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Question on superdense<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
I've always been partial to zinc chromate green, like on<BR>
the insides of the engine cowlings on all of those WWII<BR>
airplane models I built and painted as a boy.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:33:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Request <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>I was wondering  if  people  could  use  the <BR>
>abrieviation  "5FW" instead of "FFW" ... a minor point I <BR>
>know but I'm never  sure  if you mean the 1st , 4th, or <BR>
>5th FW.<BR>
<BR>
I agree.  I always use 5FW if I abbreviate, referring<BR>
either to the war or to the game.  (It's kind of like WW2<BR>
as opposed to WWT -- how will historians know if we're<BR>
referring to World War Two or Three?)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:01:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
Thought you all might find the following of interest.<BR>
<BR>
- --- quote ---<BR>
<BR>
Washington Telecom Newswire, May 5, 2000<BR>
<BR>
NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
<BR>
Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
- --- endquote ---<BR>
<BR>
"Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
<BR>
David Smart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:09:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
    I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if iron<BR>
could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
rustproof. There simply would be no place, chemically speaking, for<BR>
oxidization to start, or words to that effect.<BR>
<BR>
    The ability to form metals into precison finished shapes during the<BR>
Smelting/Forging/Collapsing process (Intimated on the Traveller Tech<BR>
Timeline) would dramatically change the way engineers look at alloys. As it<BR>
is now, alloys have to formulated with strength, workability and stability<BR>
in mind. To actually be able to tailor the structure of the metal to<BR>
accomodate various needs of a single part would be a design engineer's wet<BR>
dream.<BR>
<BR>
For example: A piece of superdense sheetmetal with a few small holes in it<BR>
to facilitate bolting it onto an airframe or whatever...<BR>
<BR>
The engineer would be able to specify the broad area of the sheet metal to<BR>
be harder and stiffer than the areas around the bolt holes...Those areas<BR>
would be made more ductile to avoid stress cracking from vibration,<BR>
expansion and contraction due heating and cooling, etc. Even now, we can do<BR>
this to a limited degree, but IF we were able to do what the Traveller T.L.<BR>
Timeline says we can in the future...things would be amazing indeed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:15:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Juliean -<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about free. TANSTAFL applies hard IMTU and TAS tends to insure<BR>
higher risk clients, so I arrange for appropriate charges.  I also require<BR>
co-pays and emergency room surcharges (can you tell I work for an HMO?).<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:54 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 12:24 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >Also, it's pricy, but the TAS provides the equivelent of<BR>
> travellers (no pun<BR>
> >intended) insurance.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, I really like that.  TAS seems to be the natural source<BR>
> for such<BR>
> services, especially if the character want to avoid megacorp<BR>
> entanglements.  I think that from now on, IMTU this will be a<BR>
> free service<BR>
> to TAS members.  Of course, you have to make it to be near a TAS<BR>
> hostel to<BR>
> get funding.  They'll be happy to reimburse you afterwards, of<BR>
> course, but<BR>
> when you need the emergency service at a class D starport...  well, you'd<BR>
> just better have plenty of cash...:)<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                           			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:13:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
supplements reprint?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:26:14 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
At 03:09 PM 5/10/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if iron<BR>
>could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
>rustproof. There simply would be no place, chemically speaking, for<BR>
>oxidization to start, or words to that effect.<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't there still be edges?  even if the inside of the metal is totally <BR>
"satisfied", there would still be the possibility of something bonding to <BR>
the outside.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a chemist, so I may be way off here...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:30:17 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
At 03:15 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>I don't know about free. TANSTAFL applies hard IMTU and TAS tends to insure<BR>
>higher risk clients, so I arrange for appropriate charges.  I also require<BR>
>co-pays and emergency room surcharges (can you tell I work for an HMO?).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure I'd go as far as co-pays, but you are right, TAS probably <BR>
wouldn't do it free - but it would significantly subsidize it when compared <BR>
to what a commercial rate might be, especially for the "high-risk PCs"  And <BR>
remember, it's not free - TAS membership costs 1MCr, whether you pay it, or <BR>
it's given to you, it's still worth a lot of money...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:38:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
> Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
> in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
> supplements reprint?<BR>
<BR>
Well personally I liked the Aliens Archive. The one product I<BR>
would _avoid_: "Pocket Empires." The rules were not only mind-<BR>
numbingly complex, they did a lousy job simulating an<BR>
interworld economic system.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Robert Eaglestone [mailto:eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com]<BR>
> Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
> <BR>
> "Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Thought you all might find the following of interest.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > --- quote ---<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Washington Telecom Newswire, May 5, 2000<BR>
> > <BR>
> > NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
> > businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
> > US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
> > capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
> > us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
> > photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> > developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> > <BR>
> > --- endquote ---<BR>
> > <BR>
> > "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > David Smart<BR>
> <BR>
> You had to ask, didn't you?  Always with the questions!<BR>
> Well, it's too late, I can't help you, Val can't help<BR>
> you, the Men in Black will no doubt swing by your home<BR>
> and do a brain wipe on you, your wife, and your pets<BR>
> soon.  No more questions.  Just a nice, peaceful smile<BR>
> and a little bit of drooling...<BR>
<BR>
AHA! I *knew* it! I *knew* Nortel was a front for the<BR>
Vilani. You'll won't get away with it, I tell you!<BR>
We'll stop you!<BR>
<BR>
Hey, who are you guys? Get out of my cubicle!<BR>
What are you doing? Wait! WAIT! NO, PLEASE NOT THA....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Oh, hello. I'm sorry if I've been a bother. If you'll<BR>
be kind enough to excuse me, I'll get back to my job.<BR>
I find it to be so enjoyable and fulfilling. I do hope<BR>
my wonderful and supportive company will accept my<BR>
humble request for a pay reduction.<BR>
<BR>
Be at peace.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2412<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 10 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2413<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: any good T4 supplements<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
Public thanks<BR>
TML on Nortel<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Traveller art<BR>
Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:51:05 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
True, but I tend to be pretty generous with handing out cash (I like to see<BR>
the look when I give them something big - usually goods, not cash - and then<BR>
again when they have to re-sell it for less). To make up for that I tend to<BR>
make operating costs higher.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 3:30 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 03:15 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >I don't know about free. TANSTAFL applies hard IMTU and TAS<BR>
> tends to insure<BR>
> >higher risk clients, so I arrange for appropriate charges.  I<BR>
> also require<BR>
> >co-pays and emergency room surcharges (can you tell I work for an HMO?).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure I'd go as far as co-pays, but you are right, TAS probably<BR>
> wouldn't do it free - but it would significantly subsidize it<BR>
> when compared<BR>
> to what a commercial rate might be, especially for the "high-risk<BR>
> PCs"  And<BR>
> remember, it's not free - TAS membership costs 1MCr, whether you<BR>
> pay it, or<BR>
> it's given to you, it's still worth a lot of money...<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                           			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:30 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> > > developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
><BR>
> AHA! I *knew* it! I *knew* Nortel was a front for the<BR>
> Vilani. You'll won't get away with it, I tell you!<BR>
<BR>
I've heard some wierd inter-corporate bickering before<BR>
but accusing your competitors of being a Vilani front<BR>
is... well... extra-wierd.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, Nokia has a way bigger chance of being a Vilani<BR>
front. What the heck kind of word is "Nokia" anyway. Maybe<BR>
it should be "Nokiia"...<BR>
<BR>
In all seriousness, Nortel's idea of a "laser" is signifigantly<BR>
smaller than the kind we usually talk about here. I'd wager<BR>
their tunable laser outputs on the order of a few watts at<BR>
most. It might blind you if you looked right into it up close,<BR>
but it ain't gonna burn a hole in you kevlar vest or anything.<BR>
<BR>
And "tunable" in this context is probably just a few nanometers,<BR>
not visible light to x-rays or anything.<BR>
<BR>
This is fibre-optics communications we're talking here, not<BR>
starship weaponry.... though, hooking a 12-TeraJoule warship-<BR>
class laser onto a chunk of fiber would probably do away with <BR>
the need for repeaters. And it would look way cool to boot.<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:36:04 +0100<BR>
From: Shane Nicholas Thomas <shane.thomas@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
<BR>
I have been working on Nexine / Mora for the TML landgrab, trying to do<BR>
minimal damage to any canonical materials that I've found whilst<BR>
remaining as close as possible to First In.<BR>
<BR>
It is a size 9 tropical water world orbiting a M8V primary, with a<BR>
population of biologically/genetically altered humans farming the<BR>
shallow seas.<BR>
<BR>
First In won't allow a tide-locked water world (which seems perfectly<BR>
reasonable to me) so I decided to have it in a resonant lock.<BR>
<BR>
This however has been nagging at the back of my mind so I finally<BR>
got round to calculating the tidal rise and fall of the oceans.<BR>
<BR>
The answer I get is a tidal range of a touch under 10000m! This seems<BR>
a little excessive for a world described as having extensive shallow<BR>
seas...<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have any bright ideas, or am I going to have to do<BR>
something violent to the stellar type to allow the world to be further<BR>
out?<BR>
<BR>
BTW the equation I used is<BR>
<BR>
                  radius   stellar mass   /radius\3<BR>
tidal deviation = ------ * ------------ * |------| * (3cos(2*angle)+1)<BR>
                     4      world mass    \ orbit/<BR>
<BR>
    where "angle" is the angle between the direction to the centre of<BR>
    the world and the direction to the star at the point where you are<BR>
    calculating the tital deviation.<BR>
<BR>
Shane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:14:47 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
<BR>
In a case like that, I think I would throw up my hands and change the<BR>
star's type.  (Those blasted little M8 dwarfs. . .)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:24:40 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In all seriousness, Nortel's idea of a "laser" is signifigantly<BR>
> smaller than the kind we usually talk about here. I'd wager<BR>
> their tunable laser outputs on the order of a few watts at<BR>
> most. It might blind you if you looked right into it up close,<BR>
> but it ain't gonna burn a hole in you kevlar vest or anything.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ah, but think it through. After all, a "plasma rifle in the 40-watt range"<BR>
is one of the Terminator's ideal weapons. Who's to say what just a few<BR>
watts can do?<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:31:56 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
>     I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if iron<BR>
>could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
>rustproof. There simply would be no place, chemically speaking, for<BR>
>oxidization to start, or words to that effect.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite.  It would be harder, but not impossible.  Also, I'm<BR>
>not sure that entropy would let you get that perfect.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:37:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
>> Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
>> in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
>> supplements reprint?<BR>
<BR>
>Well personally I liked the Aliens Archive. The one product I<BR>
>would _avoid_: "Pocket Empires." The rules were not only mind-<BR>
>numbingly complex, they did a lousy job simulating an<BR>
>interworld economic system.<BR>
<BR>
I would actually put them the other way round. I thought Pocket Empires was<BR>
really good, but disliked Alien Archives with a passion.<BR>
<BR>
Psionic Institutes is also worth a look.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:45:51 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com writes:<BR>
> In a case like that, I think I would throw up my hands and change the<BR>
> star's type.  (Those blasted little M8 dwarfs. . .)<BR>
<BR>
The M6D (whatever _that_ is) companion is pretty interesting too, though <BR>
its probably at least 5 AU away if its a white dwarf and there's anything <BR>
left of the planetary system.  Could trigger some odd tidal effects, as it<BR>
may outmass the 'primary' star.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:51:31 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
Steve Jackson Games is now soliciting outside designs for modules for the <BR>
50-ton modular cutter.  Contributions that are accepted will earn one or <BR>
more copies of the book when it comes out (depending on the number of <BR>
contributions). Interested? Go to the GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter page <BR>
to find out more.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:14:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
I'm still asking "why?".  I don't understand the whole<BR>
impetus for this project.  Of course, I'd like all things<BR>
Traveller to do well, but this one has the bar raised<BR>
high to get my interest.<BR>
<BR>
And might not some of the modules designed be<BR>
better if the GT: Starships material was available?<BR>
Or are they apples and oranges?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Keith Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Jackson Games is now soliciting outside designs for modules for the<BR>
> 50-ton modular cutter.  Contributions that are accepted will earn one or<BR>
> more copies of the book when it comes out (depending on the number of<BR>
> contributions). Interested? Go to the GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter page<BR>
> to find out more.<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:13:53 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: any good T4 supplements<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
><BR>
> > Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
> > in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
> > supplements reprint?<BR>
><BR>
> Well personally I liked the Aliens Archive. The one product I<BR>
> would _avoid_: "Pocket Empires." The rules were not only mind-<BR>
> numbingly complex, they did a lousy job simulating an<BR>
> interworld economic system.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with your logic, but I disagree with your proposed actions.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, PE is pretty complex, and yes, as written it does do a pretty lousy<BR>
job.<BR>
<BR>
But it is chock a block full of good ideas, and provides a great starting<BR>
point for thinking - the "This is crap. But *why* is it crap, and how can I<BR>
do better" (cf what AJP Taylor did for the history of WW2 - he was damned<BR>
wrong, but he made everyone else lift their game).<BR>
<BR>
Buy PE, take good bits, and retrofit the bad bits into something better.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:17:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Zo..Pleased..To..Meet..You...Flash..<beep><BR>
><BR>
><beep>Hey..bay..bee <bip> Hey..bay..bee<beep><BR>
><BR>
>You have GOT to be kidding!!! They name streets 'Dorking' over the<BR>
>pond???<BR>
<BR>
Dorking Grove was my first house I can remember living in<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm I feel that a sniglet is coming on, yes, they're called:<BR>
><BR>
>Obscenonym: N. An innnocuous word in a foreign language that sounds just<BR>
>like something naughty or obscene in yours.<BR>
><BR>
>A kid in this country who lived on 'Dorking' street would probably be<BR>
>branded for life...at least among the savages I grew up with.<BR>
<BR>
Ahh, but I had the dreaded NHS glasses so that was much worse<BR>
<BR>
Dom's name options -<BR>
<BR>
Flash<BR>
Danni<BR>
Blackie<BR>
Rodger<BR>
Ben<BR>
Grumble<BR>
Stripe<BR>
Ickle<BR>
Mischief<BR>
<BR>
Combined with<BR>
<BR>
Dorking<BR>
Riverside<BR>
Sandbach<BR>
Glen Eyre<BR>
Sirdar<BR>
Ferry<BR>
Summergrove<BR>
Apsley<BR>
<BR>
Take your pick ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:25:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
At 16:40 -0400 10/5/00, Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
>in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
>supplements reprint?<BR>
<BR>
Central Supply catalog has about every piece of equipment published <BR>
for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Milieu 0 Campaign - is background material for Year 0 (CT is 1100s)<BR>
<BR>
Alein Archive covers minor races as background -<BR>
<BR>
The rest depends on your PoV.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:30:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Public thanks<BR>
<BR>
... are due to Bob Sanders and David Smart for some plot ideas that <BR>
they gave me for 101 Patrons. They are both credited in the book, and <BR>
Bob may well be happy because someone with a name not a million miles <BR>
from his made it into two Patrons.<BR>
<BR>
Now, i'm afraid David's Character name didn't make the final cut, for <BR>
which I apologise.<BR>
<BR>
But thanks to both of you!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:27:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: TML on Nortel<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Robert Eaglestone [mailto:eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com]<BR>
> Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
><BR>
> "Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thought you all might find the following of interest.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --- quote ---<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Washington Telecom Newswire, May 5, 2000<BR>
> ><BR>
> > NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
> > businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
> > US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
> > capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
> > us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
> > photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> > developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --- endquote ---<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > David Smart<BR>
><BR>
> You had to ask, didn't you?  Always with the questions!<BR>
> Well, it's too late, I can't help you, Val can't help<BR>
> you, the Men in Black will no doubt swing by your home<BR>
> and do a brain wipe on you, your wife, and your pets<BR>
> soon.  No more questions.  Just a nice, peaceful smile<BR>
> and a little bit of drooling...<BR>
<BR>
AHA! I *knew* it! I *knew* Nortel was a front for the<BR>
Vilani. You'll won't get away with it, I tell you!<BR>
We'll stop you!<BR>
<BR>
Hey, who are you guys? Get out of my cubicle!<BR>
What are you doing? Wait! WAIT! NO, PLEASE NOT THA....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Oh, hello. I'm sorry if I've been a bother. If you'll<BR>
be kind enough to excuse me, I'll get back to my job.<BR>
I find it to be so enjoyable and fulfilling. I do hope<BR>
my wonderful and supportive company will accept my<BR>
humble request for a pay reduction.<BR>
<BR>
Be at peace.<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:03:29 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Thought you all might find the following of interest.<BR>
><BR>
> --- quote ---<BR>
><BR>
> Washington Telecom Newswire, May 5, 2000<BR>
><BR>
> NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
><BR>
> Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
> businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
> US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
> capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
> us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
> photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
><BR>
> --- endquote ---<BR>
><BR>
> "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It's a matter of scale...we can build them now...just too damn small to<BR>
use as wapons.<BR>
<BR>
BTW...saw in an aerospace mag recently the US has purchased a 747 to<BR>
convert to it's first airborne laser defence system.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:04:43 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Clay <arioch@theriver.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Recently, in one of my campaigns the PCs were discharged from the<BR>
> Scouts.  Now they have become Traders/Smugglers.  One of the players<BR>
> wanted to get medical insurance in case they got into "trouble" and<BR>
> needed to be hospitalized (rowdy group of players).<BR>
> Would an interstellar insurance company be plausible? If so, how much<BR>
> would an average plan cost?<BR>
<BR>
Do an internet search, find out how much _real_ plans cost<BR>
today in US dollars. Convert to Imperial Credits. Adjust<BR>
based on your perceptions of changes in Medical care above<BR>
TTL 8.<BR>
<BR>
> How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller? <BR>
> Has there been any canon references to this?<BR>
> Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
> & costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
MT already has rules for medical costs. [MT PM p 82]<BR>
<BR>
Superficial Wounds	Cr 3d6<BR>
Minor Wounds		Cr 10 x 2d6 (non surgical)<BR>
				Cr 500 x 1d6 (surgical)<BR>
				Hospital Care = Cr 500/day for the first <BR>
				1d6 days and Cr 100/day thereafter<BR>
				Field Care Cr 50/day<BR>
Major Wounds		Surgery Cr 1,000 x 1d6<BR>
				Hospital Care = Cr 500/day for the first <BR>
				1d6 days and Cr 100/day thereafter<BR>
				(1d6 x 10 days of total inactivity)<BR>
				Field Care Cr 50/day<BR>
Destroyed Wounds [i.e. the character is dead]<BR>
				treatment within 1d6 minutes may stabilize<BR>
				the charecter for treatment at a TTL 9+<BR>
				hospital or be low berthed & treated at a <BR>
				TTL 13+ hospital<BR>
				Cr 250,000<BR>
				Hospital Care Cr 150,000 month<BR>
<BR>
No mention of medical insurance is made in the rules, so I'd<BR>
suggest universal socialized health insurance does not exist in <BR>
the OTU (Please no health care flames).<BR>
<BR>
IMTU retired (5+ terms) Imperial Navy & Marines can get free <BR>
medical care at a Naval Base's Medical facility. One (full<BR>
term) to four term veterans can get this care for any service <BR>
related injuries. They can get this care for any injuries on<BR>
a Routine Admin & (better of SOC or Rank) roll, although they<BR>
will still have to pay costs (about 40 + 36d% of above prices).<BR>
Characters with the SEH always get free treatment no matter<BR>
how many terms they've served. IMTU the military will not pick <BR>
up costs for medical treatment done at civilian facilities.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU (and in the OTU) no Scouts ever really retire so IMTU <BR>
Scouts (who served any amount of time) can get free treatment <BR>
at a Scout Base or Way station; however Scout bases rarely <BR>
have hospitals so characters with Major wounds will have to <BR>
go elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Merchant Charecters who have retired (5+ terms) from a Mega<BR>
Corp can get free medical care from a corporate medical<BR>
facility (if one exists). One (full term) to four term veterans <BR>
can get this care for any service related injuries. They can get <BR>
this care for any injuries on a Routine Admin & (better of INT <BR>
or Rank) roll, although they will still have to pay costs (about <BR>
40 + 36d% of above prices). Charecters from smaller merchant<BR>
lines (sector, subsector, interface) can get similar care in<BR>
their lines area of operations. Retired free traders are out<BR>
of luck except on the very off chance their old ship is on<BR>
planet.<BR>
<BR>
Medical care for ex Army charecters depends on their planet<BR>
of origin (i.e. Ref's decision). Depending on how 'Imperialized'<BR>
planetary armies are in your TU Army members may get the same<BR>
sort of care that Navy & Marines do.<BR>
<BR>
Ex 'Others' do not have any free medical services & must pay<BR>
full price.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU TAS provides care for superficial wounds but does not<BR>
usually provide care for greater wounds. Remember once its<BR>
members are dead TAS no longer has to give them High Passages <BR>
but it still has their Cr 1,000,000 therefore it is in TAS's<BR>
best interests if its members die.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:22:55 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
Not a link, but an invitation...<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who are so inclined, Strata software has made a<BR>
somewhat limited version of their Strata3D 3d modelling and rendering<BR>
software available for free over the web (22 MB download), $39 for a CD<BR>
+ Manual.<BR>
<BR>
I'm biased, because I use it a lot, but it's really good, very easy to<BR>
use software. Available for Mac/Win both.<BR>
<BR>
For an example of what you can do with Strata software see:<BR>
<BR>
http://sites.netscape.net/jim0royal/<BR>
<BR>
http://www.ozi.com/vajraweb/karnak/karnakmod.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vi2.mclink.com/strata-ring/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Almost all of this stuff is doable with the freebie version...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:30:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> Clay <arioch@theriver.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > Recently, in one of my campaigns the PCs were discharged from the<BR>
> > Scouts.  Now they have become Traders/Smugglers.  One of the players<BR>
> > wanted to get medical insurance in case they got into "trouble" and<BR>
> > needed to be hospitalized (rowdy group of players).<BR>
> > Would an interstellar insurance company be plausible? If so, how much<BR>
> > would an average plan cost?<BR>
> <BR>
> Do an internet search, find out how much _real_ plans cost<BR>
> today in US dollars. Convert to Imperial Credits. Adjust<BR>
> based on your perceptions of changes in Medical care above<BR>
> TTL 8.<BR>
<BR>
Costs will probably vary wildly all over the map in any case, depending on<BR>
what sorts of things you do and where you plan to go.  Most plans will <BR>
probably not cover any port below class C (interstellar banking in such a <BR>
place will be too limited), nor will it cover amber or red zones.  If you <BR>
do have a plan that covers such areas, it will be more expensive, and you <BR>
will probably have to pay cash and then try and convince the insurance <BR>
company to reimburse you.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and another point that the character might not think of, but to consider.<BR>
If you're illegally on-world, your medical insurance quite possibly won't<BR>
apply...<BR>
<BR>
General rule of thumb for insurance: figure out how much, on average, the PC<BR>
would have to pay per year in medical bills.  Increase by 20-100%.  That's<BR>
the yearly cost of insurance.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:28:56 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
On 05/10/00 at 03:04 PM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU TAS provides care for superficial wounds but does not<BR>
>usually provide care for greater wounds. Remember once its<BR>
>members are dead TAS no longer has to give them High Passages  but it<BR>
>still has their Cr 1,000,000 therefore it is in TAS's best interests if<BR>
>its members die.<BR>
<BR>
Ho! Ho!<BR>
<BR>
But it's *not* in their best interest to *appear* to want it's<BR>
members dead.  Otherwise, their cadre of new members will dry up.<BR>
So, they should appear to give excellent care to current members. <BR>
<BR>
I think TAS can count on the sort of person who is a member to live<BR>
an interesting (and often short) life without special encouragement<BR>
from them...officially. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:43:10 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2406<BR>
<BR>
Martin Hardgrave wrote:<BR>
> I knew a Dane whose surname, much to the amusement of a Swedish<BR>
> colleague, was "Bindeballe".  She said it sounded like "tied-up<BR>
> testicles" to her.<BR>
<BR>
Confirmed.<BR>
<BR>
*chuckle*<BR>
<BR>
There are other odd cases. The German surname "Beiss" is pronounced in almost<BR>
exactly the same way as the Swedish word for sh*t. My father discovered this<BR>
while working as a cab driver in Hannover (Germany) a bunch of years back...<BR>
<BR>
That customer took another cab when my father began laughing...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
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| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
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+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2413<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2414</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/10/00 10:55:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2414<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re : Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re : Musing on superdense materials<BR>
RE: Trav Art<BR>
RE: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re : Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
Re: Musing on superdense materials<BR>
Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
Re: Musing on superdense materials<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
RE: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:41:25 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>BTW...saw in an aerospace mag recently the US has purchased a 747 to<BR>
>convert to it's first airborne laser defence system.<BR>
<BR>
I posted about this a couple of weeks ago.  Check out <BR>
www.airbornelaser.com  This is for real... (I have two friends on it, for <BR>
different subcontractors).<BR>
<BR>
They are building a turret laser...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:51:07 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  I'm an engineer with US Pipe and Foundry, we make cast iron <BR>
fittings and pipe for water and sewer services.  So for once I know a little <BR>
about a TML subject.<BR>
<BR>
I've always assumed superdense to be iron based.  In fact, its a collapsed <BR>
crystalline iron structure with carbon buckyballs mingled in the structure.  <BR>
I take this view from my work with ductile iron.  You make DI by melting <BR>
grey iron, removing impurities like chromium, copper, and some others, and <BR>
adding silicon and carbon (all in proper proportions of course).  Magnesium <BR>
is added to cause the carbon flakes in the melt to "ball up", forming rough <BR>
spheres.  The iron must be cast and chilled rather soon after the magnesium <BR>
inoculation, because the effect "fades" rather quickly.  The result of the <BR>
carbon transformation is ductile iron.  Grey iron has a yield strength of 20 <BR>
to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.  Wonderful stuff DI. <BR>
Anyway, superdense is a collapsed iron lattice, with carbon buckyballs in <BR>
the matrix.  Its a super form of DI.  For an off the cuff guess, I'd say <BR>
it's yield is around one million psi.  As far as rust (excuse me, my boss <BR>
would pitch a fit, the proper term is oxidation) goes, DI will rust, but <BR>
unlike some steels, it only rusts on the surface, which does not flake off, <BR>
essentially forming a protective layer and stopping the rust from further <BR>
penetration.  Aluminum does the same thing.  New DI, having cooled and been <BR>
shot blasted (like sand blasting, but using tiny steel shot instead) ranges <BR>
from a brushed silver to nearly white.  In a vacuum, I'd say SD (bonded or <BR>
not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A bare hull in <BR>
an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a <BR>
deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years, and it'll be <BR>
almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when it was cast. <BR>
  BTW, we already deal with stress concentrations by adjusting the product's <BR>
cross sections in those areas.  I believe in the future, even with more <BR>
advanced materials, it'll be simpler (and cheaper) to deal with such issues <BR>
in that fashion.<BR>
<BR>
Just my .02 Cr worth<BR>
<BR>
Jim Clem<BR>
(dammit boss, I'm an engineer, not a chemist!)<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:55:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Clay wrote :-<BR>
> How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller? <BR>
> Has there been any canon references to this?<BR>
Yes, there's a list of costs in the MT Player's Manual, as well as the<BR>
main T4 book. These were based on an article Terry McInnes wrote for<BR>
the original JTAS way back when.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget the rules in the main GURPS rulebook and Compendium II.<BR>
<BR>
> Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
> & costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
The main factor I guess is how much the 'customer' actually pays.<BR>
Is the cost of health provided by taxing the citizenry, or by user fees?<BR>
Are any groups in society subsidised? How much?<BR>
Some rules of thumb :-<BR>
Health spending (by organisations) ranges, in the OECD countries, from<BR>
4-15% of GNP.<BR>
Hospital admission rates are about 20-40 per thousand population per<BR>
year.<BR>
<BR>
I would agree with Glenn Goffin that as technology improves, large<BR>
hospitals disappear. More problems are dealt with in the community ;<BR>
prolonged (3+ days) admissions imply complex multisystem illnesses and<BR>
critical care.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:05:37 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Musing on superdense materials<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Helton wrote :-<BR>
>     I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if iron<BR>
> could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
> rustproof.<BR>
With regard to steels, rustproofing involves having a very low (no)<BR>
sulphur content. A moderate amount of silicon will retard rusting.<BR>
Alloying with chromium or manganese is pretty good too.<BR>
<BR>
I thought about crystaliron for a little while, and thought that<BR>
crystalsteel would be better as the former would be a little on the soft<BR>
side.<BR>
<BR>
The coolest bit about crystalmetals would be the ferromagnetic<BR>
properties (of the appropriate elements). Voila, instant radiation<BR>
shield for a space vehicle. Makes electrostatic armour easier to use<BR>
too.<BR>
<BR>
> The engineer would be able to specify the broad area of the sheet metal to<BR>
> be harder and stiffer than the areas around the bolt holes.<BR>
Aren't the areas around the bolt holes the weakest part of the panel, as<BR>
the holes act as stress concentrators?<BR>
<BR>
Jesse deGraff wrote :-<BR>
> Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull) look<BR>
> like?  Shiny?  Matte?<BR>
Whatever you want it to look like mate, just keep the excellent art<BR>
coming!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:03:54 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Trav Art<BR>
<BR>
Well, tooting my own horn time, there's my own site at<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
<BR>
Mike Linsenmyer's also done some nice stuff.  While some of his early posted<BR>
work didn't use original models (neither did mine of course ;), all of his<BR>
newer work has been oriniginal and VERY nice.  I like the equipment he's<BR>
done, and hope if SJG does any equipment guides he illustrates the whole<BR>
thing.  His site's at http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace/<BR>
<BR>
Apologies to the members of the Trav3D group, but I don't have any of your<BR>
sites bookmarked at the mometn :(   We'll have to get the site rolling and<BR>
linked now that I have a LITTLE free time....<BR>
<BR>
Hope that helps!<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:21 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Trav Art<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Does anyone have links to sites with Traveller (esp TNE) artwork<BR>
> they could<BR>
> point me at? Private email would be best.<BR>
><BR>
> Regards<BR>
><BR>
> MJD<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:07:57 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Thank you Jim and all the others that replied.  Looks like my ideas will<BR>
float.  Woo hoo!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of jim clem<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 4:51 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hi all.  I'm an engineer with US Pipe and Foundry, we make cast iron<BR>
> fittings and pipe for water and sewer services.  So for once I<BR>
> know a little<BR>
> about a TML subject.<BR>
><BR>
> I've always assumed superdense to be iron based.  In fact, its a<BR>
> collapsed<BR>
> crystalline iron structure with carbon buckyballs mingled in the<BR>
> structure.<BR>
> I take this view from my work with ductile iron.  You make DI by melting<BR>
> grey iron, removing impurities like chromium, copper, and some<BR>
> others, and<BR>
> adding silicon and carbon (all in proper proportions of course).<BR>
> Magnesium<BR>
> is added to cause the carbon flakes in the melt to "ball up",<BR>
> forming rough<BR>
> spheres.  The iron must be cast and chilled rather soon after the<BR>
> magnesium<BR>
> inoculation, because the effect "fades" rather quickly.  The<BR>
> result of the<BR>
> carbon transformation is ductile iron.  Grey iron has a yield<BR>
> strength of 20<BR>
> to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.  Wonderful stuff DI.<BR>
> Anyway, superdense is a collapsed iron lattice, with carbon buckyballs in<BR>
> the matrix.  Its a super form of DI.  For an off the cuff guess, I'd say<BR>
> it's yield is around one million psi.  As far as rust (excuse me, my boss<BR>
> would pitch a fit, the proper term is oxidation) goes, DI will rust, but<BR>
> unlike some steels, it only rusts on the surface, which does not<BR>
> flake off,<BR>
> essentially forming a protective layer and stopping the rust from further<BR>
> penetration.  Aluminum does the same thing.  New DI, having<BR>
> cooled and been<BR>
> shot blasted (like sand blasting, but using tiny steel shot<BR>
> instead) ranges<BR>
> from a brushed silver to nearly white.  In a vacuum, I'd say SD<BR>
> (bonded or<BR>
> not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A<BR>
> bare hull in<BR>
> an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a<BR>
> deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years,<BR>
> and it'll be<BR>
> almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when<BR>
> it was cast.<BR>
>   BTW, we already deal with stress concentrations by adjusting<BR>
> the product's<BR>
> cross sections in those areas.  I believe in the future, even with more<BR>
> advanced materials, it'll be simpler (and cheaper) to deal with<BR>
> such issues<BR>
> in that fashion.<BR>
><BR>
> Just my .02 Cr worth<BR>
><BR>
> Jim Clem<BR>
> (dammit boss, I'm an engineer, not a chemist!)<BR>
> ________________________________________________________________________<BR>
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:42:36 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re : Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
Clay wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
>How much would medical treatment & hospitalization cost in Traveller?...<BR>
>Any help/comments on creating a realistic (or at least plausible) rules<BR>
>& costs for this would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Our GMs use a cost per point of damage system that varies depending <BR>
on where you are.  So, if you're on Up Port and go to the local <BR>
trauma center, you may only pay $100 credits/point (i.e., you're down <BR>
7 points, so it will cost $700 credits to get you fixed up).  There <BR>
are additional variables, such as if you need to go to a 'discreet' <BR>
physician, or a limb needs to be reattached/regrown, but it's pretty <BR>
much a set amount per point of damage to be healed.  Easy to figure <BR>
out this way.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:15:27 +1000<BR>
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Insurance and Medical Costs<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 10 May 2000 15:04:43 -0800<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Remember once its<BR>
>members are dead TAS no longer has to give them High Passages<BR>
>but it still has their Cr 1,000,000 therefore it is in TAS's<BR>
>best interests if its members die.<BR>
<BR>
Just one more reason not to eat at the TAS Burger Bar.<BR>
<BR>
Graeme  8-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:30:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musing on superdense materials<BR>
<BR>
Robert,<BR>
<BR>
            That was my original point: metals could be formed into their<BR>
*Exact* finished shape while being collapsed. There would be no stress on<BR>
the metal where the holes were simply because there would be no<BR>
machining-induced stress to worry about. Think about a piece of sheetmetal<BR>
as an amorphous casting - impossible now, but a real possibility in a Zero-G<BR>
foundry. Add the collapsing properties and the metal could be changed<BR>
gradually across the part to adapt to varying conditions (i.e. mounting<BR>
points, bolt holes) with extreme precision. Your part would be grown as a<BR>
single piece of metal that had strength and ductility precisely where needed<BR>
as needed. Compare that with a piece of rolled (Stressed) metal sheared and<BR>
drilled or punched (More stress) as needed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re : Musing on superdense materials<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Matthew Helton wrote :-<BR>
> >     I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if iron<BR>
> > could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
> > rustproof.<BR>
> With regard to steels, rustproofing involves having a very low (no)<BR>
> sulphur content. A moderate amount of silicon will retard rusting.<BR>
> Alloying with chromium or manganese is pretty good too.<BR>
><BR>
> I thought about crystaliron for a little while, and thought that<BR>
> crystalsteel would be better as the former would be a little on the soft<BR>
> side.<BR>
><BR>
> The coolest bit about crystalmetals would be the ferromagnetic<BR>
> properties (of the appropriate elements). Voila, instant radiation<BR>
> shield for a space vehicle. Makes electrostatic armour easier to use<BR>
> too.<BR>
><BR>
> > The engineer would be able to specify the broad area of the sheet metal<BR>
to<BR>
> > be harder and stiffer than the areas around the bolt holes.<BR>
> Aren't the areas around the bolt holes the weakest part of the panel, as<BR>
> the holes act as stress concentrators?<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse deGraff wrote :-<BR>
> > Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull)<BR>
look<BR>
> > like?  Shiny?  Matte?<BR>
> Whatever you want it to look like mate, just keep the excellent art<BR>
> coming!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:46:53 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: TML landgrab: Inspiration wanted!<BR>
<BR>
>I have been working on Nexine / Mora for the TML landgrab, trying to do<BR>
>minimal damage to any canonical materials that I've found whilst<BR>
>remaining as close as possible to First In.<BR>
><BR>
>It is a size 9 tropical water world orbiting a M8V primary, with a<BR>
>population of biologically/genetically altered humans farming the<BR>
>shallow seas.<BR>
><BR>
>First In won't allow a tide-locked water world (which seems perfectly<BR>
>reasonable to me) so I decided to have it in a resonant lock.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A 1:1 tidal lock isn't that bad for a water world.  Calculations<BR>
say that atmospheric circulation can keep the atmosphere from<BR>
freezing out on the back side and water circulation keep<BR>
the water evenly distributed.  The farmers could farm in<BR>
the twilight area or even have ocean currents carry algea,<BR>
sea weed, etc. from one side to the other.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>This however has been nagging at the back of my mind so I finally<BR>
>got round to calculating the tidal rise and fall of the oceans.<BR>
><BR>
>The answer I get is a tidal range of a touch under 10000m! This seems<BR>
>a little excessive for a world described as having extensive shallow<BR>
>seas...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This would assume free flow of water?  If the seas are shallow <BR>
enough, then they might not allow all the water to flow?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:47:14 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of which, I posted the first new piece in a LONG time.  Hit the<BR>
"News" section from the URL below.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:04:42 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musing on superdense materials<BR>
<BR>
There will be no induced stresses from machining, but as soon as you stress <BR>
the part, you will still get stress concentrations in those areas.<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musing on superdense materials<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:30:13 -0700<BR>
<BR>
Robert,<BR>
<BR>
             That was my original point: metals could be formed into their<BR>
*Exact* finished shape while being collapsed. There would be no stress on<BR>
the metal where the holes were simply because there would be no<BR>
machining-induced stress to worry about. Think about a piece of sheetmetal<BR>
as an amorphous casting - impossible now, but a real possibility in a Zero-G<BR>
foundry. Add the collapsing properties and the metal could be changed<BR>
gradually across the part to adapt to varying conditions (i.e. mounting<BR>
points, bolt holes) with extreme precision. Your part would be grown as a<BR>
single piece of metal that had strength and ductility precisely where needed<BR>
as needed. Compare that with a piece of rolled (Stressed) metal sheared and<BR>
drilled or punched (More stress) as needed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re : Musing on superdense materials<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 > Matthew Helton wrote :-<BR>
 > >     I think I remember reading somewhere (Traveller Canon?) that if <BR>
iron<BR>
 > > could be smelted into a perfect crystalline structure, it would be<BR>
 > > rustproof.<BR>
 > With regard to steels, rustproofing involves having a very low (no)<BR>
 > sulphur content. A moderate amount of silicon will retard rusting.<BR>
 > Alloying with chromium or manganese is pretty good too.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > I thought about crystaliron for a little while, and thought that<BR>
 > crystalsteel would be better as the former would be a little on the soft<BR>
 > side.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > The coolest bit about crystalmetals would be the ferromagnetic<BR>
 > properties (of the appropriate elements). Voila, instant radiation<BR>
 > shield for a space vehicle. Makes electrostatic armour easier to use<BR>
 > too.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > > The engineer would be able to specify the broad area of the sheet metal<BR>
to<BR>
 > > be harder and stiffer than the areas around the bolt holes.<BR>
 > Aren't the areas around the bolt holes the weakest part of the panel, as<BR>
 > the holes act as stress concentrators?<BR>
 ><BR>
 > Jesse deGraff wrote :-<BR>
 > > Here's a question for you.  What does bare superdense (starship hull)<BR>
look<BR>
 > > like?  Shiny?  Matte?<BR>
 > Whatever you want it to look like mate, just keep the excellent art<BR>
 > coming!<BR>
 ><BR>
 ><BR>
 > Robert O'Connor<BR>
 > Medico, Gamer<BR>
 ><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:34:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 7 May 2000 10:14:27 +0200, Jens Rydholm<BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> "They sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel."<BR>
> - - William Gibson, "Neuromancer"<BR>
<BR>
> One question (mainly to Evyn, but anyone could answer):<BR>
<BR>
> The background sounds you are gathering... how large are the files? I am very<BR>
> interested in such sounds. If you have a fast, unlimited-time type connection,<BR>
> could you send them to me in some format (mp3 or wav are perfect)?<BR>
<BR>
> E-mail me privately if this is the case.<BR>
<BR>
Why, planning to cut into Dogbert's business opportunity? ;) For the<BR>
Dilbert impaired, Dogbert once tried to make a fortune by starting a<BR>
company that would *sell* static to fill unused cable TV channels.<BR>
(Of course, Dilbert's boss became a *major* investor.) I'm not sure,<BR>
but I think he eventually sold the business to Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  The mallet eats the enormous railroad. FNORD!   |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:30:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
At 06:14 PM 5/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm still asking "why?".<BR>
<BR>
You know, I had somebody mail me saying that he coldn't understand why SJG<BR>
was wasting time on Ground Forces, since "nobody uses the Army" in their<BR>
games and "it would be a waste of paper."<BR>
<BR>
In other words, the book may not be for you, but there will be people who<BR>
are interested.<BR>
<BR>
The deeper why is that it is something Loren has wanted to do for years.<BR>
He's the Traveler boss, so he gets it. <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:37:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
At 07:47 PM 5/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Speaking of which, I posted the first new piece in a LONG time.  Hit the<BR>
>"News" section from the URL below.<BR>
<BR>
That.. is one BIG station.  In the immortal words of Keanu Reeves: "Whoa"<BR>
<BR>
I got the Tigress and the Plankwell, and the ship coming in behind the HFB<BR>
looks like one of the ships from Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium.<BR>
But I don't recognize the thick disk ship in the next section over.<BR>
<BR>
great work, it only needs the Gridlore Technologies SubStation 3 sign.. :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:40:43 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 10 May 2000 22:37:36 +0100, Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >> Do any T4 supplements have good info in them for use<BR>
> >> in CT games? Or should I just wait for the CT<BR>
> >> supplements reprint?<BR>
> <BR>
> >Well personally I liked the Aliens Archive. The one product I<BR>
> >would _avoid_: "Pocket Empires." The rules were not only mind-<BR>
> >numbingly complex, they did a lousy job simulating an<BR>
> >interworld economic system.<BR>
> <BR>
> I would actually put them the other way round. I thought Pocket Empires was<BR>
> really good, but disliked Alien Archives with a passion.<BR>
> <BR>
> Psionic Institutes is also worth a look.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... I liked them both.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there's always ACQ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
A procrastinator's work is never done.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:43:18 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey...<BR>
> <BR>
> I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
> by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
> noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
> universe.....<BR>
> <BR>
> One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to remember, but there might be something in the movie<BR>
"Contact".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
A procrastinator's work is never done.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:40:27 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> >BTW...saw in an aerospace mag recently the US has purchased a 747 to<BR>
> >convert to it's first airborne laser defence system.<BR>
> <BR>
> I posted about this a couple of weeks ago.  Check out <BR>
> www.airbornelaser.com  This is for real... (I have two friends on it, for <BR>
> different subcontractors).<BR>
> <BR>
> They are building a turret laser...<BR>
>   <BR>
<BR>
Janes Defence Review wrote about it almost four years ago,, I dont <BR>
remember exactly when i read the article.  This means we have <BR>
been at tech 10 for some years now.  Hmmm does the gove have <BR>
secret FTL ships.  Wait I didnt say that <BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:49:09 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
VERY good Doug!  Got most of 'em ;)  The ship parked behind the Tigress is<BR>
another BL-15 from Shattered Ships.  The ship will feature prominently on<BR>
the cover.  The disk shaped ship is a Voroshilef from MT Rebellion<BR>
Sourcebook.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe Gridlore can appear elsewhere in the book ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 1:37 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 07:47 PM 5/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Speaking of which, I posted the first new piece in a LONG time.  Hit the<BR>
> >"News" section from the URL below.<BR>
><BR>
> That.. is one BIG station.  In the immortal words of Keanu Reeves: "Whoa"<BR>
><BR>
> I got the Tigress and the Plankwell, and the ship coming in behind the HFB<BR>
> looks like one of the ships from Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium.<BR>
> But I don't recognize the thick disk ship in the next section over.<BR>
><BR>
> great work, it only needs the Gridlore Technologies SubStation 3 sign.. :)<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> "But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
> perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
> limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2414<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2415</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2415<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Vs: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
Ductile Iron Correction: was Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Vs: Technology Marches On<BR>
Electrostatic armor<BR>
Re: Assorted<BR>
RE: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:01:40 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Keith<BR>
> Johnson<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2000 10:52<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Jackson Games is now soliciting outside designs for modules for the<BR>
> 50-ton modular cutter.  Contributions that are accepted will earn one or<BR>
> more copies of the book when it comes out (depending on the number of<BR>
> contributions). Interested? Go to the GURPS Traveller: Modular<BR>
> Cutter page<BR>
> to find out more.<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter<BR>
<BR>
Not much point posting this on the 11th May when submissions closed on the<BR>
10th May!<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:11:41 +1000<BR>
From: Roger Howe <fridge@canberra.teknet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
At 02:43 PM 11/05/00, you wrote:<BR>
>On Sat, 06 May 2000 01:13:54 -0700, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hey...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I have been working on some background sounds to game<BR>
> > by. And I came up with this... For the sensor shack, the base<BR>
> > noise would be audio of a Radio Telescopes veiw of the<BR>
> > universe.....<BR>
> ><BR>
> > One Prob....  Haven't found any. Any body got a good source?<BR>
<BR>
Try here: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/audio.html .<BR>
<BR>
Only about ten seconds worth in .wav or .au format.<BR>
<BR>
There is one from a pulsar as well.<BR>
<BR>
Roger<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Don't mess with nature, for you are small, insignificant and biodegradable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 03:43:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:14 PM 5/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm still asking "why?".<BR>
><BR>
> You know, I had somebody mail me saying that he coldn't understand why SJG<BR>
> was wasting time on Ground Forces, since "nobody uses the Army" in their<BR>
> games and "it would be a waste of paper."<BR>
<BR>
I don't know Nobody.  I don't think Anybody does.<BR>
Why would Anybody care what Nobody does?<BR>
</poor attempt at humor><BR>
<BR>
> In other words, the book may not be for you, but there will be people who<BR>
> are interested.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that is pretty much true of every possible topic.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 03:38:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
jim clem wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Grey iron has a yield strength of 20<BR>
> to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.<BR>
<BR>
Is that the point at which it 'overloads', i.e., 'breaks', if I have the<BR>
terminology right?<BR>
<BR>
> In a vacuum, I'd say SD (bonded or<BR>
> not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A bare hull in<BR>
> an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a<BR>
> deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years, and it'll be<BR>
> almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when it was cast.<BR>
<BR>
Great stuff here for painting the traveller picture.<BR>
Shiny white and new, rustly black and old, both tough.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:49:34 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
"Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> wrote,<BR>
>Given name is your first pet's name, surname is the street you grew up <BR>
>on (go with the first if lots).<BR>
<BR>
Two brothers, Nipper & Titch Hardwick - definitely underworld types.<BR>
Named after our first two cats, brothers who terrorised the<BR>
neighbourhood (double-teaming against anything that was too big for one<BR>
of them).<BR>
<BR>
My mother's last dog works well, too - Trudi Goldsworth.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:41:47 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:49 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Two brothers, Nipper & Titch Hardwick - definitely underworld types.<BR>
<BR>
Wow, my name would be Thomas Hardwick!<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:16:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
><BR>
> --- endquote ---<BR>
><BR>
> "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
<BR>
We've had tunable lasers for around 15 years. Maybe 20. <BR>
<BR>
It's tunable WEAPONS GRADE lasers that may be listed as TL 10+.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:52:12 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 10:06 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> > From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> > To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
> > Subject: Re: surface area & heat radiation<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Nope, because they are visible from each other. Which means they<BR>
> cut off a chunk of the sky that each could otherwise be radiating at.<BR>
> <BR>
I realized this on the evening I had already sent this mail...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:04:57 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Ductile Iron Correction: was Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Oops, _I_ have my terminology off.  I gave the ULTIMATE strengths, yes, the <BR>
point where the material breaks.  The yield strength for DI is about 50 <BR>
thousand psi.<BR>
<BR>
My apologies<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 03:38:30 -0400<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
jim clem wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 >  Grey iron has a yield strength of 20<BR>
 > to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.<BR>
<BR>
Is that the point at which it 'overloads', i.e., 'breaks', if I have the<BR>
terminology right?<BR>
<BR>
 > In a vacuum, I'd say SD (bonded or<BR>
 > not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A bare hull <BR>
in<BR>
 > an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a<BR>
 > deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years, and it'll <BR>
be<BR>
 > almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when it was <BR>
cast.<BR>
<BR>
Great stuff here for painting the traveller picture.<BR>
Shiny white and new, rustly black and old, both tough.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:04:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
On 10 May 00, at 20:30, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:14 PM 5/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I'm still asking "why?".<BR>
> <BR>
> You know, I had somebody mail me saying that he coldn't understand why SJG<BR>
> was wasting time on Ground Forces, since "nobody uses the Army" in their<BR>
> games and "it would be a waste of paper."<BR>
<BR>
If he doesn't use the army in his games his PCs don't have the size of <BR>
gun they deserve :)<BR>
<BR>
> In other words, the book may not be for you, but there will be people who<BR>
> are interested.<BR>
<BR>
One gripe a friend of mine had had about Traveller forever is that <BR>
nowhere is there any sort of detail as to what the average <BR>
Marine/Imperial Infantryman/Merc's kit is. As I'm presuming that this <BR>
will be covered (for the Army, anyway) IMO Ground Forces will be an <BR>
excellent addition to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
> The deeper why is that it is something Loren has wanted to do for years.<BR>
> He's the Traveler boss, so he gets it.<BR>
<BR>
Horay for being boss, I say.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:04:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:10:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
On 10 May 00, at 19:47, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of which, I posted the first new piece in a LONG time.  Hit the<BR>
> "News" section from the URL below.<BR>
<BR>
I think I've just "discovered" my new desktop. Man I wish I could do <BR>
that sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 03:17:31 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
> <BR>
> Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
> businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
> US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
> capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
> us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
> photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> <BR>
> --- endquote ---<BR>
> <BR>
> "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Lasers are used in high end metal cutting machines. There are several<BR>
ways to cut metal; water-jet, laser, punch, flame, and plasma are the most<BR>
common. Plasma torches and oxy-fuel flame torches are far the cheapest<BR>
machines a person or shop can buy for metal cutting. Water-Jet, Punch, and<BR>
Laser are often twice to ten as expensive but produce very good edge<BR>
quality on the parts. Plasma is cheap and fast, (100 to 300 inches a<BR>
minute). Oxy-Fuel is slow but can cut very very thick plate and it is<BR>
cheap.<BR>
<BR>
If anybody wants to see the current tech state of Laser just do a search<BR>
on yahoo for Laser cutting machines. You will learn a lot of things about<BR>
pratical day to day manitance of lasers. There are gases, optics and a<BR>
whole host of things to worry about.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:20:06 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:02 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Besides, Nokia has a way bigger chance of being a Vilani<BR>
> front. What the heck kind of word is "Nokia" anyway. Maybe<BR>
> it should be "Nokiia"...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Nokia is originally the name of the town the company was founded in. The etymology of that name may have something to do with "noki", which is "soot" in english.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:37:39 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Electrostatic armor<BR>
<BR>
> Makes electrostatic armour easier to use<BR>
> too.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I've asked this before, and I have to ask again: What is electrostatic armor?<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:56:19 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Assorted<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-10 16:44:15 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< So who owns Twilight:2000 ...>><BR>
<BR>
Tantalus, last I heard.<BR>
<BR>
<< and if Dark Conspiracy was sold  on<BR>
 with ruleset then what does that mean for other former GDW titles<BR>
 with the house rules?>><BR>
<BR>
I don't understand the question -- but as far as I know, Tantalus only <BR>
licensed out the paper RPG rights.<BR>
 <BR>
 << Also, who owns GDW's Third World War series wargames?  >><BR>
<BR>
Frank Chadwick<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:44:42 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
<BR>
The cool thing is, that with a little time (okay, and some $$$ to drop on a<BR>
decent program) ANYONE can learn how to do 3D.  Sure, a conventional<BR>
artistic background WILL help, but the beauty is you can be the type that<BR>
can't draw a straight line to save your life, but still be able to create<BR>
cool stuff in 3D.<BR>
<BR>
Have a great one, and thanks!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rupert<BR>
> Boleyn<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 4:11 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Speaking of which....RE: Traveller art<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 10 May 00, at 19:47, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Speaking of which, I posted the first new piece in a LONG time.  Hit the<BR>
> > "News" section from the URL below.<BR>
><BR>
> I think I've just "discovered" my new desktop. Man I wish I could do<BR>
> that sort of thing.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:29:26 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >BTW...saw in an aerospace mag recently the US has purchased a 747 to<BR>
> >convert to it's first airborne laser defence system.<BR>
><BR>
> I posted about this a couple of weeks ago.  Check out<BR>
> www.airbornelaser.com  This is for real... (I have two friends on it, for<BR>
> different subcontractors).<BR>
><BR>
> They are building a turret laser...<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
Standard 3dt bucket?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:57:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> jim clem wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  Grey iron has a yield strength of 20<BR>
>> to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.<BR>
><BR>
> Is that the point at which it 'overloads', i.e., 'breaks', if I have the<BR>
> terminology right?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not an engineer, but I think that's the point at which "malleable"<BR>
materials start to *permanently* deform. <BR>
<BR>
>> In a vacuum, I'd say SD (bonded or<BR>
>> not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A bare hull <BR>
> in<BR>
>> an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a<BR>
>> deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years, and it'll <BR>
> be<BR>
>> almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when it was <BR>
> cast.<BR>
><BR>
> Great stuff here for painting the traveller picture.<BR>
> Shiny white and new, rustly black and old, both tough.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that for stuff *expected* to be exposed to the elements,<BR>
you can "rust" it *on purpose* under controlled conditions, which<BR>
produces a hard *tough* coat that will resist further "rusting". <BR>
<BR>
They did that with a railroad bridge they built here in the late 80s.<BR>
The old bridge had been a center pivot design. The replacement was a<BR>
lift span (which more than doubled the wdth of the channel!). <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the steel is this uniform "rust brown" and doesn't *need* painting.<BR>
<BR>
On a smaller scale, the bluing on a gun is similar. <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
"blue" the entire hull on a ship. <BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that paint is a *nuisance* in a lot of ways. For one<BR>
thing, one even a measly 100 ton ship, it weighs a *lot*. Hundreds of<BR>
kilos, probably. That's why they quit painting the external tank on the<BR>
Space shuttle and stsarted leaving it the natural brown color of the<BR>
insulation. Even airlines do it. The "mostly unpainted" American<BR>
Airlines type paint job saves a *lot* of fuel on long flights.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, ferrous alloys can be given rather nice brown, blue, or black<BR>
oxide coats. Check your local gun store to see the colors. Or polish a<BR>
piece of scrap iron, and heat one end and watch the "temper colors" run<BR>
up it. From a faint "straw yellow" thru a brown, to a *beautiful* blue,<BR>
peacock purple and black.<BR>
<BR>
Metals like aluminum and titanium can be anodized. Again it's an oxide<BR>
coat, but clear this time. *But*, there are ways to get pigments<BR>
incorporated into the coat. Which can get you some *lovely* metallic<BR>
blues, greens, reds, etc. And since the coatings are only slightly<BR>
softer than diamond, you've got a lasting finish.<BR>
<BR>
Corrosive chemicals can damage any of these finishes, though. And<BR>
physical damage (dents, dings, melting) will damage the finish.<BR>
<BR>
One thing that can do to *some* metals, but (last I heard) haven't<BR>
figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
*diamond*. <BR>
<BR>
*That* will resist corrosion. Just keep the hull temp below white hot...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:10:37 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
Robert Conley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > NORTEL BRINGS OPTICS LINES INTO SINGLE BUSINESS UNIT<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Nortel unveiled plans to bring its fiber-optic components<BR>
> > businesses into a single unit, in part to better leverage<BR>
> > US$660 million in investments to triple production<BR>
> > capacities this year...The move also will "enable<BR>
> > us to more fully leverage" the recent acquisitions of<BR>
> > photonic switch-manufacturer Xros and tunable laser<BR>
> > developer CoreTek, Callaghan said.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --- endquote ---<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Tunable laser"?!? Isn't that supposed be TL10+?<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Lasers are used in high end metal cutting machines. There are several<BR>
> ways to cut metal; water-jet, laser, punch, flame, and plasma are the most<BR>
> common. Plasma torches and oxy-fuel flame torches are far the cheapest<BR>
> machines a person or shop can buy for metal cutting. Water-Jet, Punch, and<BR>
> Laser are often twice to ten as expensive but produce very good edge<BR>
> quality on the parts. Plasma is cheap and fast, (100 to 300 inches a<BR>
> minute). Oxy-Fuel is slow but can cut very very thick plate and it is<BR>
> cheap.<BR>
><BR>
> If anybody wants to see the current tech state of Laser just do a search<BR>
> on yahoo for Laser cutting machines. You will learn a lot of things about<BR>
> pratical day to day manitance of lasers. There are gases, optics and a<BR>
> whole host of things to worry about.<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
problem culd be getting licence to operate said machine...the government might<BR>
worry if "taking over the world" is listed on end-use certificate...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:21:12 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > jim clem wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>  Grey iron has a yield strength of 20<BR>
> >> to 30 thousand psi.  DI is 70 to 90 thousand psi.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Is that the point at which it 'overloads', i.e., 'breaks', if I have the<BR>
> > terminology right?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not an engineer, but I think that's the point at which "malleable"<BR>
> materials start to *permanently* deform.<BR>
><BR>
> >> In a vacuum, I'd say SD (bonded or<BR>
> >> not) is between silver and white (for bare metal of course).  A bare hull<BR>
> > in<BR>
> >> an atmosphere would oxidize from a dull golden color initially through a<BR>
> >> deepening shade of rust brown as it aged.  Give it a few years, and it'll<BR>
> > be<BR>
> >> almost black, and still just a structually sound as it was when it was<BR>
> > cast.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Great stuff here for painting the traveller picture.<BR>
> > Shiny white and new, rustly black and old, both tough.<BR>
><BR>
> Keep in mind that for stuff *expected* to be exposed to the elements,<BR>
> you can "rust" it *on purpose* under controlled conditions, which<BR>
> produces a hard *tough* coat that will resist further "rusting".<BR>
><BR>
> They did that with a railroad bridge they built here in the late 80s.<BR>
> The old bridge had been a center pivot design. The replacement was a<BR>
> lift span (which more than doubled the wdth of the channel!).<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, the steel is this uniform "rust brown" and doesn't *need* painting.<BR>
><BR>
> On a smaller scale, the bluing on a gun is similar.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
> "blue" the entire hull on a ship.<BR>
><BR>
> Keep in mind that paint is a *nuisance* in a lot of ways. For one<BR>
> thing, one even a measly 100 ton ship, it weighs a *lot*. Hundreds of<BR>
> kilos, probably. That's why they quit painting the external tank on the<BR>
> Space shuttle and stsarted leaving it the natural brown color of the<BR>
> insulation. Even airlines do it. The "mostly unpainted" American<BR>
> Airlines type paint job saves a *lot* of fuel on long flights.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, ferrous alloys can be given rather nice brown, blue, or black<BR>
> oxide coats. Check your local gun store to see the colors. Or polish a<BR>
> piece of scrap iron, and heat one end and watch the "temper colors" run<BR>
> up it. From a faint "straw yellow" thru a brown, to a *beautiful* blue,<BR>
> peacock purple and black.<BR>
><BR>
> Metals like aluminum and titanium can be anodized. Again it's an oxide<BR>
> coat, but clear this time. *But*, there are ways to get pigments<BR>
> incorporated into the coat. Which can get you some *lovely* metallic<BR>
> blues, greens, reds, etc. And since the coatings are only slightly<BR>
> softer than diamond, you've got a lasting finish.<BR>
><BR>
> Corrosive chemicals can damage any of these finishes, though. And<BR>
> physical damage (dents, dings, melting) will damage the finish.<BR>
><BR>
> One thing that can do to *some* metals, but (last I heard) haven't<BR>
> figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
> *diamond*.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
what would that do to the toughness of the armour? In Shadowrun, 'Diakote' is a<BR>
surface treatment you can apply to any material than can survive the deposition<BR>
process, e.g. kevlar is out but the ceramic panels in the vest can be given this<BR>
treatment...as can sword blades and arrow heads...game effect for weapons (from<BR>
memory...) is takink the weapons into anti-vehicle damage classes...the ability<BR>
to fire cross-bow bolts through cars...or somesuch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> *That* will resist corrosion. Just keep the hull temp below white hot...<BR>
<BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:48:43 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I've been working on a series of articles for JTAS on the<BR>
different governments in the Imperium. Eventually, I know<BR>
I'll have to decide what a "Feudal Technocracy" is, even<BR>
though this is a controversial topic. So before I commit<BR>
myself to one position or another, I'd like to offer<BR>
my own thoughts on the subject, and ask for your feedback.<BR>
<BR>
We know that FTs are fairly common in the Imperium, and<BR>
that they tend to be found on fairly low-population worlds.<BR>
I wanted to fit these facts into a scheme that *made sense*,<BR>
based on what I knew about the way the world works.<BR>
<BR>
I felt that a society that was self-consciously modelled <BR>
on the feudal institutions of medieval Europe would<BR>
look foolish and bizarre to citizens of the 39th Century AD.<BR>
It doesn't mean they wouldn't exist, but they wouldn't <BR>
be very common. I felt that one had to look at the<BR>
term "feudalism" while ignoring its medieval connotations.<BR>
<BR>
I also suspected that when Marc Miller  may have had the <BR>
Technocracy movement in mind when he used the term. <BR>
Technocracy had its heyday in the early 1930's<BR>
under the leadership of Howard Scott, who (according<BR>
to the Britannica) "proclaimed the invalidation, by<BR>
technologically produced abundance, of all prior economic <BR>
concepts based on scarcity; he predicted the imminent <BR>
collapse of the price system and its replacement by a <BR>
bountiful technocracy."<BR>
<BR>
I was struck by two related observations:<BR>
<BR>
1. Feudalism can be thought of as a mutual exchange of services.<BR>
The lord gives land and protection to the vassal, and the<BR>
vassal promises to work for the lord, either as a soldier<BR>
or as a farmer/peasant. *Labor*, not money, is the medium <BR>
of exchange.<BR>
2. The Technocracy movement was largely an _economic_ <BR>
movement; it's defining characteristic was a hostility to "the <BR>
Price Syetem," i.e. the market economy. They wanted to replace <BR>
liberal capitalism with some kind of command economy in <BR>
which compensation would be based on units of "productive <BR>
energy." <BR>
<BR>
The connection between the two seems clear. Both technocracy<BR>
and feudalism would lie outside the market economy. Both systems<BR>
are based on the exchange of services, rather than cash. Therefore,<BR>
these characteristics would be fundamental to Feudal Technocracy.<BR>
<BR>
I thought about the fact that half of the FTs had<BR>
less than 10,000 citizens, about the size of a small<BR>
American town. Then I remembered the small Utopian communities <BR>
of the 19th century, such as Oneida, New York, New Harmony, <BR>
Indiana and Brook Farm, Massachusetts, and it all fell<BR>
into place:<BR>
<BR>
"Feudal technocracies" are Utopian communities, made up of small<BR>
collective units who exchange goods and services under the<BR>
guidance of a coordinating agency of technocrats.<BR>
The exact features of a FT will vary from case to case, <BR>
but certain features stand out. <BR>
<BR>
Each local community is organized into collectivist units <BR>
of production, much like Fourier's "phalanxes," Owen's <BR>
cooperative villages, or the worker's "guilds" of Guild <BR>
Socialism. These small units would exchange necessary goods <BR>
and services with each other in a manner proscribed and <BR>
coordinated by the state. This state would make contractual <BR>
agreements with each of the collectives, offering its <BR>
protection in exchange for services and the achievement <BR>
of certain production targets.<BR>
<BR>
I like this scheme because it's a reasonably broad definition<BR>
of a "technocracy" -- all sorts of communalist utopian communities<BR>
could be considered "technocracies" of one sort or another.<BR>
I also like it because communities like these *actually<BR>
exist* or have existed in the modern world, and most of them<BR>
have been fairly small scale.<BR>
<BR>
So, what are your thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2415<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2416<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [long]<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [long]<BR>
Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Personal Note<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:03:43 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
Still I'm continually blown away by your site every time I look at it.<BR>
<BR>
The Rim of Fire cover looks great. BTW I'm curious what that monster<BR>
station has in the way of offensive/defensive capabilities (besides a<BR>
carried squadron of Battle Ships).<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity (coupled with the fact that I can't draw stick<BR>
figures)<BR>
<BR>
What software package do you use?<BR>
<BR>
What does your "Home PC" look like - memory, video card, processing<BR>
speed etc.<BR>
<BR>
Just in case I get the wild idea that "anyone can do 3-d".<BR>
<BR>
Thanks and I hope you keep at it for a long long time.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
- ----------------------<BR>
Jesse Wrote:<BR>
<BR>
The cool thing is, that with a little time (okay, and some $$$ to drop<BR>
on a<BR>
decent program) ANYONE can learn how to do 3D.  Sure, a conventional<BR>
artistic background WILL help, but the beauty is you can be the type<BR>
that<BR>
can't draw a straight line to save your life, but still be able to<BR>
create<BR>
cool stuff in 3D.<BR>
<BR>
Have a great one, and thanks!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:48:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> problem culd be getting licence to operate said machine...the government might<BR>
> worry if "taking over the world" is listed on end-use certificate...<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
These Lasers are designed to have a focal point only inches away from the<BR>
emitter. I dont think they would make a effective weapon. Remember these<BR>
has to cut plate metal on a table that is about 3 feet high. So if it can<BR>
burn much beyond the plate then you will be cutting up your table. <BR>
<BR>
In addition the companies making these lasers would have be pursuing<BR>
design requirements optimized for commerical use particulary in the<BR>
optics. This generally would make a metal cutting laser unsuitable for<BR>
weapon use. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:32:51 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [long]<BR>
<BR>
I thought this might be of interest to some.<BR>
<BR>
Ever wished there was more of the 'classic' Traveller material printed?<BR>
Well here's some I'll bet you've never read.  The Spanish version of 1001<BR>
Characters some 'detailed' personalties spread through the book.  Being the<BR>
curious sort, I was interested to read them but my Spanish isn't up to it.<BR>
<BR>
I thought I would give AltaVista's BabelFish a try although I wasn't very<BR>
hopeful due to previous comments I've heard from language experts and my<BR>
own small efforts to use it.<BR>
<BR>
However, I was most pleasantly surprised when I got the results back and<BR>
found that it was very readable and with a bit of tidying up is quite<BR>
passsble with the exception of just one sentence [marked in square<BR>
brackets] which I'm still puzzling over.<BR>
<BR>
As this was so successful, I may give the others a go.<BR>
<BR>
What follows is the original Spanish of one character for those who can<BR>
read it.  That's followed by the BabelFish version.  Finally, my 'tidy up'<BR>
brings up the rear.<BR>
<BR>
Any comments would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea how the Spanish accented letters will come out so my<BR>
apologies in advance if they get corrupted.  I could send a Word file to<BR>
anyone interested.<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
82 Segundo Oficial Roger Pouhl Clarke                   Original Spanish<BR>
<BR>
El  segundo  Oficial  Clarke  llevaba  6  aos  en  la  Armada Mercante del<BR>
Subsector  de Gulf al producirse la absorcin de la pequea naviera para la<BR>
que  trabajaba  por  una  megacorporacin.  Clarke esperaba cambios con los<BR>
nuevos propietarios, pero lo que ocurri le sorprendi.<BR>
<BR>
Fue transferido a La Marca Espiral e integrado dentro de la organizacin de<BR>
la  megacorporacin,  la  cual  le  prepar para una nueva funcin.  Clarke<BR>
conservara  su  rango tcnico como Segundo Oficial, pero sera transferido<BR>
con  cierta  frecuencia  de  carguero  a  carguero.   Su  misin real sera<BR>
observar  a  las tripulaciones de la naviera y descubrir cualquier clase de<BR>
irregularidad  (desde  pequeas  incompetencias hasta los delitos contra la<BR>
corporacin que cualquier tripulante o capitn pudiera cometer).<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  se  senta incmodo al principio con su papel dentro de la naviera,<BR>
pero poco a poco fue experimentando una satisfaccin creciente al descubrir<BR>
las faltas grandes y pequeas de los empleados de la corporacin y observar<BR>
las  rpidas destituciones o despidos.  Clarke se convirti progresivamente<BR>
en  un  astuto observador y consigui detectar un gran nmero de delitos en<BR>
varias tripulaciones.<BR>
<BR>
Su  xito  fue  correspondido por la naviera con importantes bonifacaciones<BR>
financieras  y  otras  ventajas.  Clarke era siempre encubierto y protegido<BR>
por  la  naviera;  la mayora de tripulantes despedidos o destituidos no se<BR>
explican cmo fueron descubiertos.<BR>
<BR>
Con el tiempo, Clarke empez a darse cuenta de que no consegua revelar ms<BR>
que   infracciones   menores   en  las  ordenanzas  o  pequeos  robos  sin<BR>
importancia.   Empez  a creer que alguien le haba descubierto y que haba<BR>
corrido  la voz entre las tripulaciones.  El nmero de delitos descubiertos<BR>
por  Clarke  descenda,  y  esto  era  algo  que no podia permitir.  Clarke<BR>
decidi   fabricar   evidencias  falsas  y  comprometer  a  inocentes  para<BR>
mantenerse  en  su  posicin.   Esta  prctica le ha sido productiva, y las<BR>
cosas vuelven a irle viento en popa.<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  considera  que  est haciendo una labor honesta y eficiente, ya que<BR>
segn  l  los  empleado  despedidos  tras una de sus conspiraciones iban a<BR>
cometer  un  delito  contra  la  corporacin  igualmente  en el futuro.  Su<BR>
depuracin  preventiva  de  la  corporacin es una tarea tan sublime que no<BR>
puede revelarlo a sus superiores, ya que estos no entenderan lo importante<BR>
de su misin.  Clarke se considera astuto y valiente por llevar a cabo esta<BR>
accin,  ya  que  para  ella  no  ha  pedido ayuda a nadie y es tan slo su<BR>
inteligencia la que le permite tener el xito que tiene.<BR>
<BR>
En  realidad,  Clarke no es ms que un delator despreciable que no entiende<BR>
cul  debera  ser  su  funcin  (y  si  esta  debera  existir realmente),<BR>
excusndose  a  s mismo de sus acciones con argumentos que no se tienen en<BR>
pie  para seguir manteniendo su posicin de informador y para enriquecerse.<BR>
Desafortunadamente,  es  difcil que sea descubierto, aunque sus superiores<BR>
empiezan  a  preguntarse si no sera necesario situar a un informador cerca<BR>
de Clarke para que descubra que es lo que est ocurriendo realmente.  Sera<BR>
un final irnico pero apropiado para Clarke.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
82 Second Oficial Roger Pouhl Clarke                    AltaVista BabelFish<BR>
<BR>
The  second  Official  Clarke  took  to 6 years in the Merchant Navy of the<BR>
Subsector  of  Gulf  when taking place the small absorption of the shipping<BR>
one  for  which  she worked by a megacorporacin. Clarke waited for changes<BR>
with the new proprietors, but what it happened she surprised to him.<BR>
<BR>
He   was   transferred  to  the  Spiral  and  integrated  Mark  within  the<BR>
organization  of  the  megacorporacin,  which  prepared  to  him for a new<BR>
function.  Clarke  would  conserve his technical rank like Second Official,<BR>
but she would be transferred with certain frequency of freighter freighter.<BR>
Its  real  mission would be to observe the crews of the shipping one and to<BR>
discover any class of irregularity (from small incompetencias to the crimes<BR>
against the corporation that any crew member or captain could commit).<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  felt  like  discomfort  in  the beginning with his paper within the<BR>
shipping  one,  but  little  by  little  she was experiencing an increasing<BR>
satisfaction  when discovering the great and small lack of the employees of<BR>
the  corporation and to observe the fast destitutions or dismissals. Clarke<BR>
became  an  astute  observer  progressively  and was able to detect a great<BR>
number of crimes in several crews.<BR>
<BR>
Its   success   was  corresponded  by  shipping  with  important  financial<BR>
bonifacaciones  and  other  advantages.  Clarke  was  always  concealed and<BR>
protected by the shipping one; most of dismissed or dismissed crew they are<BR>
not explained how they were discovered.<BR>
<BR>
With time, Clarke began to realize of which she was not able to reveal more<BR>
than  smaller infractions in decrees or small robberies without importance.<BR>
He  began  to  think that somebody had discovered to him and that the voice<BR>
between  the  crews  had  run.  The  number  of crimes discovered by Clarke<BR>
descended,  and  this was something that podia not to allow. Clarke decided<BR>
to  make  evidences  false  and  to  jeopardize  innocents  to  stay in his<BR>
position.  This  practice him has been productive, and the things return to<BR>
go tailwind to him.<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  considers  that  she  is  making honest and efficient a work, since<BR>
according to him the employee dismissed after one of their conspiracies was<BR>
going  to  also  commit  a crime against the corporation in the future. Its<BR>
preventive debugging of the corporation is a so sublime task that it cannot<BR>
reveal  it  to  his  superior  ones,  since  these would not understand the<BR>
important  thing of their mission. Clarke considers itself astute and brave<BR>
to  carry  out  this  action,  since  for  her she has not requested aid to<BR>
anybody  and  it is only his intelligence the one that allows him to be the<BR>
successful that it has.<BR>
<BR>
In  fact,  Clarke  is  not  more  than  a  despicable informer who does not<BR>
understand  which  would have to be its function (and if this would have to<BR>
really exist), excusing itself to itself of its actions with arguments that<BR>
do not have still on to continue maintaining their position of informer and<BR>
to  become  rich.  Unfortunately,  it  is  difficult that it is discovered,<BR>
although  their  superior  ones  begin to ask themselves if it would not be<BR>
necessary to locate to an informer near Clarke so that it discovers that it<BR>
is  what  it is happening really. It would be an ironic but appropriate end<BR>
for Clarke.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
82 Second Officer Roger Pouhl Clarke                    Timothy Collinson<BR>
<BR>
Second  Officer  Clarke  had spent six 6 years in the Merchant Navy of Gulf<BR>
Subsector  when  the  shipping  line for which she worked was absorbed by a<BR>
megacorporation.   Clarke  waited for changes with the new proprietors, but<BR>
what happened surprised him.<BR>
<BR>
He  was  transferred  to  the Spinward Marches within the megacorporation's<BR>
organization  and given a new job.  Clarke would keep his technical rank of<BR>
Second  Officer, but he would be transferred periodically from freighter to<BR>
freighter.   His real mission would be to observe the crews of the shipping<BR>
line  and  to  uncover  any  irregularities  (from  minor incompetencies to<BR>
crimes  against  the  corporation  that  any  crew  member or captain might<BR>
commit).<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  felt  some  discomfort at first with his briefing from the shipping<BR>
line,  but  little by little he experienced an increasing satisfaction when<BR>
discovering  the large and small [lack] of the employees of the corporation<BR>
and  to  observe  the  fast  demotions  or dismissals. Clarke progressively<BR>
became  an  astute observer and was able to detect a large number of crimes<BR>
in several crews.<BR>
<BR>
[His   success  was  corresponded  by  shipping  with  important  financial<BR>
bonifacaciones  and  other  advantages.]  Clarke  was  always concealed and<BR>
protected by the shipping line; and most of dismissed or demoted crew never<BR>
learned how they were discovered.<BR>
<BR>
With  time, Clarke began to realize that he was not able to reveal anything<BR>
more  than smaller infractions in regulations or small, unimportant thefts.<BR>
He began to think that somebody had discovered him and that rumours between<BR>
crews  had spread. The number of crimes discovered by Clarke diminshed, and<BR>
this  was something that he could not allow.  Clarke decided to plant false<BR>
evidences  and  to  jeopardize  innocent employees to stay in his position.<BR>
This practice has been productive for him, and things started to improve.<BR>
<BR>
Clarke  considers  that  he  is  working  honestly  and  efficiently, since<BR>
according to him employees dismissed after a conspiracy are going to commit<BR>
a   crime   against  the  corporation  in  the  future.   His  preventative<BR>
'delousing'  of  the  corporation  is a so sublime a task that it cannot be<BR>
revealed  to  his superiors, since they would not understand the importance<BR>
of  his  mission. Clarke considers himself astute and brave in carrying out<BR>
this  action,  since  he has not requested help from anybody and it is only<BR>
his intelligence that allows him to be as successful as he is.<BR>
<BR>
[In  fact,  Clarke  is  no  more  than  a  despicable informer who does not<BR>
understand  which  would have to be its function (and if this would have to<BR>
really  exist)  ]   He  excuses his actions to himself with arguments about<BR>
maintaining  his position as informer and becoming rich.  Unfortunately, it<BR>
is  difficult for him to be discovered, although his superiors are starting<BR>
to  ask themselves if it might not be necessary to locate an informer close<BR>
to  Clarke to discover what is really happening.  It would be an ironic but<BR>
appropriate end for Clarke.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:48:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
At 03:43 AM 5/11/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> In other words, the book may not be for you, but there will be people who<BR>
>> are interested.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, that is pretty much true of every possible topic.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  I am under no illusion that GF is for everybody, or that<BR>
everybody who buys it is going to use the entire thing.  For example, I<BR>
don't use most of Far Trader's more complex economic rules, but I love the<BR>
rest of the book.  I use First In to detail systems, but would probably<BR>
never run a Scout campaign.  I bought Starports, but it will be of minimal<BR>
use to me.<BR>
<BR>
Cutters is a book that I'm looking forward to just because it is unlike<BR>
anything we've had before.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:59:22 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [long]<BR>
<BR>
> From:          Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
 <BR>
> Ever wished there was more of the 'classic' Traveller material printed?<BR>
> Well here's some I'll bet you've never read.<BR>
<BR>
How much? Sorry, you lost. <g><BR>
<BR>
>  The Spanish version of 1001<BR>
> Characters some 'detailed' personalties spread through the book.  Being the<BR>
> curious sort, I was interested to read them but my Spanish isn't up to it.<BR>
<BR>
You mean the original version did not have them????? Funny. I only <BR>
read the spanish one. Now I regret even more that my copy was lost <BR>
when I changed countries.<BR>
<BR>
> However, I was most pleasantly surprised when I got the results back and<BR>
> found that it was very readable and with a bit of tidying up is quite<BR>
> passsble with the exception of just one sentence [marked in square<BR>
> brackets] which I'm still puzzling over.<BR>
SNIP<BR>
> Any comments would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
I am a native spaniard, so mazbe I can help. The translation sounds <BR>
good, but a few points are slightly mistaken. I give alternatives <BR>
here. I also translate the sentence you have doubts with.<BR>
<BR>
> Clarke  felt  some  discomfort at first with his briefing from the<BR>
> shipping line,<BR>
...with his *role* within the shipping line...<BR>
<BR>
>  but  little by little he experienced an increasing<BR>
> satisfaction when discovering  the large and small [lack] of the<BR>
> employees<BR>
...the large or small *faults* (misdeeds) of the employees...<BR>
<BR>
> [His   success  was  corresponded  by  shipping  with  important <BR>
> financial bonifacaciones  and  other  advantages.]<BR>
His success was corresponded by the shipping line with <BR>
important financial *bonuses* and other rewards.  <BR>
<BR>
> Clarke  considers  that  he  is  working  honestly  and <BR>
> efficiently, since according to him employees dismissed after a<BR>
> conspiracy are going to commit a   crime   against  the  corporation<BR>
>  in  the  future.<BR>
...*were* anyway going to commit...<BR>
 <BR>
> [In  fact,  Clarke  is  no  more  than  a  despicable informer who does not<BR>
> understand  which  would have to be its function (and if this would have to<BR>
> really  exist)  ]<BR>
...which *should* be *his* function (and if  this (function) should <BR>
exist at all).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the material! Please post more!<BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
<BR>
Spaniard, Mathematician, Economist, Geonee-maker, BTE-referee. <g><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon writes:<BR>
> Still I'm continually blown away by your site every time I look at it.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Rim of Fire cover looks great. BTW I'm curious what that monster<BR>
> station has in the way of offensive/defensive capabilities (besides a<BR>
> carried squadron of Battle Ships).<BR>
<BR>
Hm...I did some back of my hand calculations; I estimate that isn't more than<BR>
a billion ton hull.  I suspect its primary defense is a nuclear damper and<BR>
the fact that five billion tons of material is hard to destroy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:18:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly, particularly on worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:23:17 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:18 AM 05/11/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a <BR>
>conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on <BR>
>control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a <BR>
>relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly, particularly <BR>
>on worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
<BR>
Control of technology and information???  Sounds like most IT departments <BR>
and techs that I know...<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:38:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/10/00 4:51 PM, travmind@hotmail.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Just my .02 Cr worth<BR>
> <BR>
> Jim Clem<BR>
<BR>
And a fine .02 Cr it is, please post more in this field, it can really be<BR>
useful to those of us who are /not/ educated in metalurgy. I love this<BR>
list's diversity!<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:42:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a<BR>
conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on<BR>
control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a<BR>
relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly, particularly on<BR>
worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
><BR>
That would be feasible form of government, and it would be common<BR>
as well. "Ownership of technology," however, sounds very close to<BR>
"ownership of capital" -- meaning it would be hard to distinguish from<BR>
government type 2 (company/corporate government). I also wish there<BR>
closer analogies to real-world governments of one sort or another.<BR>
<BR>
Eventually, though, I guess someone will just have to contact Marc<BR>
Miller and ask him what the term means...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:50:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> "Ownership of technology," however, sounds very close to<BR>
> "ownership of capital" -- meaning it would be hard to distinguish from<BR>
> government type 2 (company/corporate government). <BR>
<BR>
Erk, I meant type 1 (2 is participatory democracy, I believe).<BR>
My apologies.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:51:25 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:42 PM 5/11/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>That would be feasible form of government, and it would be common<BR>
>as well. "Ownership of technology," however, sounds very close to<BR>
>"ownership of capital" -- meaning it would be hard to distinguish from<BR>
>government type 2 (company/corporate government). I also wish there<BR>
>closer analogies to real-world governments of one sort or another.<BR>
<BR>
I was reading that as more of ownership of "information" about <BR>
technology.  Something along the line of the "guild secrets" in Heinlein's <BR>
Starman Jones, but in a feudal, not guild relationship.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:54:10 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Personal Note<BR>
<BR>
A shameless self-plug: I (and my creditors) wanted to thank whoever ordered<BR>
the $40 computer book from Amazondotcom through the link on my private<BR>
website (http://www.io.com/~lkw/). I get a bounty on everything ordered<BR>
through those links, even if I didn't write it. Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:14:51 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> That would be feasible form of government, and it would be common<BR>
> as well. "Ownership of technology," however, sounds very close to<BR>
> "ownership of capital" -- meaning it would be hard to distinguish from<BR>
> government type 2 (company/corporate government). I also wish there<BR>
> closer analogies to real-world governments of one sort or another.<BR>
<BR>
Not exactly the same, at least not on a (somewhat) hostile world. The persons<BR>
who know how to maintain the air filters, run the power plant, etc. are the<BR>
ones in control. They decide who to teach to be the next generation of<BR>
lightbulb changers. Sort of like a guild hierarchy, really.<BR>
<BR>
It is in the interest of a guild to keep its trade secrets secret. If they<BR>
don't, they loose that which makes them special, and thus lose their status.<BR>
<BR>
It is also possible that each guild consists (mainly) of members of one<BR>
extended family, making them nobles.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, everyone that is not a part of any big guild would do minor work<BR>
for one or more guilds (working in kitchens, sweeping floors etc). Those people<BR>
would be the peasants of the society.<BR>
<BR>
This is the way I've pictured feudal technocracies. Such communities would<BR>
probably begin to appear if a colony got isolated, for example by the Long<BR>
Night.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:34:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I've been working on a series of articles for JTAS on the<BR>
>different governments in the Imperium. Eventually, I know<BR>
>I'll have to decide what a "Feudal Technocracy" is, even<BR>
>though this is a controversial topic. So before I commit<BR>
>myself to one position or another, I'd like to offer<BR>
>my own thoughts on the subject, and ask for your feedback.<BR>
<BR>
I think that you're complicating things just a little too much. I don't<BR>
think that it's necessary to forge a connection between the Technocracy<BR>
movement and feudalism (which I feel is somewhat tenuous to begin with) in<BR>
order to make that government type work. It seems to work fine on its own.<BR>
From Book 3: "Feudal Technocracy. Government by specific individuals for<BR>
those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of<BR>
technical activities which are mutually beneficial."<BR>
<BR>
I think that the simplest, and best, explication of the concept of feudal<BR>
technocracies has already been floating around for some time. I championed<BR>
it some time ago with a well-received example.<BR>
<BR>
The underlying notion is simple enough: living on the various planets of the<BR>
Imperium can be a complicated matter. In many places you have people living<BR>
on worlds where they don't really belong. This problem is compounded by the<BR>
fact that some of these planetary communities have been around for a long,<BR>
long time and there is a very complex web of technology supporting them. In<BR>
such an environment, even very skilled technicians would have to know the<BR>
specific "ins" and "outs" of the machinery that they are dealing with.<BR>
<BR>
After all, the air purification network has been in use since the days of<BR>
the Ziru Sirka, except in Sector C, where there's a jury-rigged "fix" which<BR>
has been in use since the Long Night. Then there's Sector L, which had a<BR>
complete overhaul during the Rule of Man. Sometimes it buzzes so bad that<BR>
people can't get proper sleep for days. Oh yeah I almost forgot, in Sectors<BR>
G and S all of the ductwork was replaced in the early Third Imperium. On the<BR>
other hand, the power grid is a *real* nightmare. Let's not even go there.<BR>
The Long Night was not kind on it. Don't laugh, a couple thousand years<BR>
worth of the snargle rats gnawing at the wires will do that to *anybody's*<BR>
power grid. Good thing we have such fantastic exterminators. Of course, the<BR>
exterminators refuse to work when Sector L's purification machinery goes on<BR>
the fritz, so the power technicians have to exert pressure on the<BR>
Purification guild. Sometimes, they have to cut power to Sectors A and B to<BR>
make their point.<BR>
<BR>
What I'm getting at here is that there would be interlocking necessities<BR>
which would require high levels of specialized technical knowledge and<BR>
skill, and that these people who have these high levels could, and probably<BR>
would, form "power blocs". It's not too hard to see these blocs growing into<BR>
a system of interlocking obligations of the sort that feudalism is based on.<BR>
Such a government can be based on a wide variety of technologies.<BR>
<BR>
This seems to be the closest thing to a "party line" with respect to feudal<BR>
technocracies which I've seen so far. I do think that your take was<BR>
interesting, but I do think that it's a little too complicated.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:19:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> I also wish there closer analogies to real-world governments of<BR>
> one sort or another.<BR>
> <BR>
> Eventually, though, I guess someone will just have to contact<BR>
> Marc Miller and ask him what the term means...<BR>
<BR>
In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   As   I<BR>
understand it reproducing the article in full (there wasn't  much<BR>
more to it than the list of examples)  would  not  be  legal  ...<BR>
quotes are okay but not the whole thing.<BR>
<BR>
In addition to the list is a brief text which clarifies that  the<BR>
government  type   attempts   to   categorise   an   individual's<BR>
relationship to the state rather than the structure of the  upper<BR>
echelons of the government.  As  such  certain  government  types<BR>
such as "kingdom" or  "communism"  do  not  appear,  but  may  be<BR>
examples of other Traveller government  types  ...  the  USSR  is<BR>
listed in  the  twice, once for the USSR under  Stalin,  and  one<BR>
post-Stalin.<BR>
<BR>
Always remember  that  the  UPP  (or  UWP)  is  not  a  *general*<BR>
description of a world but is a description relevant to visitors:<BR>
<BR>
- - Government type categorises individual's relationship to state,<BR>
  not structure of upper echelons of government.<BR>
<BR>
- - Tech level describes local manufacturing capability, not  level<BR>
  of scientific knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:47:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> > One thing that can do to *some* metals, but (last I heard) haven't<BR>
> > figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
> > *diamond*.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> what would that do to the toughness of the armour? In Shadowrun, 'Diakote' is a<BR>
> surface treatment you can apply to any material than can survive the deposition<BR>
> process, e.g. kevlar is out but the ceramic panels in the vest can be given this<BR>
> treatment...as can sword blades and arrow heads...game effect for weapons (from<BR>
> memory...) is takink the weapons into anti-vehicle damage classes...the ability<BR>
> to fire cross-bow bolts through cars...or somesuch<BR>
<BR>
Shadowrun: Cyberpunk 2020, but _with_ munchkins...:-)<BR>
<BR>
A thin diamond coating makes the surface very wear resistant, meaning it<BR>
doesn't scuff up or wear away, which is why it's done to things like<BR>
optical or bearing surfaces, but it's only a few thousanths of an inch<BR>
in thickness; it wont add anything particularly significant to the<BR>
objects strength.<BR>
<BR>
Diamonds are quite hard but they're also brittle.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, one of the larger markets for diamond film deposition is<BR>
eyeglasses; makes 'em harder than anything else to scratch.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:49:21 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens replied to Anthony Jackson:<BR>
<BR>
[Anthony Jackson wrote:]<BR>
<BR>
>> One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a<BR>
>> conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on<BR>
>> control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a<BR>
>> relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly,<BR>
particularly on<BR>
>> worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
<BR>
[Matt's response:]<BR>
<BR>
>That would be feasible form of government, and it would be common<BR>
>as well. "Ownership of technology," however, sounds very close to<BR>
>"ownership of capital" -- meaning it would be hard to distinguish from<BR>
>government type 2 (company/corporate government). I also wish there<BR>
>closer analogies to real-world governments of one sort or another.<BR>
<BR>
I don't follow how this would look the same. Anthony wrote that such a<BR>
system is based on the control of available technology, not necessarily<BR>
ownership. That would seem to be an important distinction. In a company /<BR>
corporate government, the citizens are all employees of a specific company<BR>
or corporation. I imagine that government type 2 might look something like<BR>
the coal mining towns which are all around in upstate Pennsylvania. I<BR>
imagine that type 5, feudal technocracy, would look quite different. In<BR>
fact, I imagine that it would look something like medieval Europe or Japan,<BR>
only with differing sets of obligations.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2416<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2417<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
RE: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
RE: OT Names<BR>
structure comp Q/A<BR>
Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Assorted<BR>
Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: OT Names<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
New-be wants to know<BR>
Cutter Submissions<BR>
Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
T4 Combat System?<BR>
RE: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Shadowrun: Cyberpunk 2020, but _with_ munchkins...:-)<BR>
<BR>
What, there aren't munchkins in CP2020?<BR>
> <BR>
> A thin diamond coating makes the surface very wear resistant, meaning it<BR>
> doesn't scuff up or wear away, which is why it's done to things like<BR>
> optical or bearing surfaces, but it's only a few thousanths of an inch<BR>
> in thickness; it wont add anything particularly significant to the<BR>
> objects strength.<BR>
<BR>
Never having seen someone actually dikote armor in shadowrun (for a typical<BR>
armor suit, it would be around 50,000 nuyen, and adds +1 armor rating), I <BR>
never really thought of it as a problem.  It mostly gets used on weapons so<BR>
you can chop down trees with them.  For armor, I assume the point is surface<BR>
hardening (to shatter bullets) rather than increased structural strength.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:07:10 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
>> (snipage) What is electrostatic armor?<BR>
<BR>
From FFS pg58 (paraphrasing)<BR>
"ESA is a low-yield electrical field which surrounds the<BR>
protected target. When projectiles hit the field it gets<BR>
Vapo-ized. Works only against kinetic weapons;<BR>
Lasers etc. don't work that well."<BR>
<BR>
"Don't Panic" ;-)<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:17:38 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, I'm not convinced by:<BR>
<BR>
	Ginger Braiswick<BR>
<BR>
but a friend could offer:<BR>
<BR>
	Nancy Scarletts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:51:17 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: structure comp Q/A<BR>
<BR>
Does structure comp ever become a more cost effective<BR>
construction material than wood or stone? For that matter,<BR>
is there any cost effective construction material usefull for<BR>
residential home construction?<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it wood and stone are .001Mcr per M3.<BR>
Structure Comp at .040Mcr per M3. You really would'nt<BR>
want to build a home at an extra .039Mcr per M3, would<BR>
you? :-I<BR>
<BR>
Also, some where I have seen T4 materials translated into<BR>
MT format. Anyone now where I can find that stuff?<BR>
<BR>
Still seeking to build the better Imperial household,<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:48:58 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutter Submissions Needed!<BR>
<BR>
At 10:46 AM 5/11/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter<BR>
><BR>
>Not much point posting this on the 11th May when submissions closed on the<BR>
>10th May!<BR>
<BR>
Whoa!  That is surreal.  I smell a typo that missed the editor.  Thanks for <BR>
pointing that out!<BR>
<BR>
The deadline has been pushed back to the 20th of May.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:15:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
> an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
> examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   <BR>
<BR>
Oohhh, could you tell me the issue number? Please? (I will try to<BR>
track it down on eBay or wherever.)<BR>
<BR>
> In addition to the list is a brief text which clarifies that  the<BR>
> government  type   attempts   to   categorise   an   individual's<BR>
> relationship to the state rather than the structure of the  upper<BR>
> echelons of the government.  <BR>
<BR>
OK, that definitely makes sense, and it confirms what I suspected<BR>
about "bureaucratic" governments at least. (What are his examples<BR>
for "civil service" and "impersonal bureaucracy," by the way?)<BR>
<BR>
As  such  certain  government  types<BR>
> such as "kingdom" or  "communism"  do  not  appear,  but  may  be<BR>
> examples of other Traveller government  types  ...  the  USSR  is<BR>
> listed in  the  twice, once for the USSR under  Stalin,  and  one<BR>
> post-Stalin.<BR>
<BR>
My guess would be that the first was government type A, the second<BR>
government type B. But what did MWM say?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks a great deal for the info!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:22:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the feedback, everybody.<BR>
<BR>
It appears as if there's more concensus on this issue <BR>
than I inferred from the TML FAQ. Essentially <BR>
FT *does* seem share some similarities with<BR>
"guild socialism," although it's more likely to appear<BR>
through a kind of economic blackmail by unions or guilds<BR>
than through any Utopian impulse. (Or am I<BR>
again misinterpreting?)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again, Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:24:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Just a quick couple of queries, I just managed to get Battle Rider and the<BR>
Regency sourcebook (Finally I get a complete collection of TNE for my<BR>
campaign which ended 2 months ago)<BR>
<BR>
1)  Does anyone know of any fixes/updates etc to Battle Rider.<BR>
2)  Is there any errata for the Regency Sourcebook.<BR>
<BR>
Ok all the above was found at a localish store that has an amazing amount of<BR>
Traveller stuff (all except MT)<BR>
<BR>
1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
tell I run TNE)<BR>
2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most useful<BR>
GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
<BR>
I know this has been discussed a lot before so please feel free to mail me<BR>
off-list with answers.<BR>
<BR>
Finally an offer, If anyone is after any Traveller stuff they may have Email<BR>
me privately and I will arrange to check on it for you.  I'll be going on<BR>
Monday 15th so email me before then and I will get back to you with<BR>
availabilities and prices then.  Unfortunately if I want it you had better<BR>
stand in line.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:30:55 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> > In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
> > an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
> > examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   <BR>
> <BR>
> Oohhh, could you tell me the issue number? Please? (I will try to<BR>
> track it down on eBay or wherever.)<BR>
<BR>
Duh, I'm sorry, you just said you *didn't know* the issue number.<BR>
My brain is definitely not working today...<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone _else_ know the issue? Would anyone be willing<BR>
to sell it to me directly?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:42:49 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Assorted<BR>
<BR>
At 10:46 -0400 11/5/00, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><< and if Dark Conspiracy was sold  on<BR>
> with ruleset then what does that mean for other former GDW titles<BR>
> with the house rules?>><BR>
><BR>
>I don't understand the question -- but as far as I know, Tantalus only<BR>
>licensed out the paper RPG rights.<BR>
<BR>
I think he's asking if that means Tantalus and their sub-licensees <BR>
are the only people who can use the House Rules system from Dark <BR>
Conspiracy, T2K 2nd edition and TNE.<BR>
<BR>
Could, for example, Marc publish T5 using the House Rules if he wanted to?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:38:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Any good T4 Supplements?<BR>
<BR>
At 1:53 -0400 11/5/00, "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com> wrote:<BR>
>Of course, there's always ACQ...<BR>
<BR>
Which also provides an option of bolting a more modern combat system <BR>
onto CT as all the weapon and armour stats are listed, and you could <BR>
just use the BITS task system and the difficulties in place of the CT <BR>
tables.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. It occurs to me that T4 had the first version of a combat system <BR>
for Traveller I actually really liked.<BR>
<BR>
CT - tables annoyed me with the combined to hit and armour.<BR>
MT - my head hurts with the penetration issues and I never really <BR>
followed it until I read the MT ref's screen.<BR>
TNE - Two things - autofire and damage. Unless you bolt in some of <BR>
the T2k mods people have mentioned It's not lethal enough and too <BR>
many dice.<BR>
GT - so so but not my kettle of fish really.<BR>
T4 fast and lethal, as written. EA makes it very fatal.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:39:30 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Peter [mailto:p.scarrott@btinternet.com]<BR>
<BR>
1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
tell I run TNE)<BR>
<BR>
If your talking other versions of Traveller, I would say the Regency<BR>
Sourcebook and Aliens of the Rim probably top my list.  If you mean other<BR>
RPGs than Traveller, I would say Fusion, Fire, and Steel is probably the<BR>
most interesting, with the World Tamer's Handbook coming in close.<BR>
<BR>
2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
Probably Free Trader, with all those great commerce rules.  First In has<BR>
some good planetary detailing systems that can be used too.  The Alien books<BR>
are good if you want to use the aliens in them (lots of cultural<BR>
background).<BR>
<BR>
3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most useful<BR>
GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
<BR>
I like some of the self-contained sourcebooks for the good overview they<BR>
provide - GURPS Russia, GURPS Aztecs, etc.  GURPS Uplift has an excellent<BR>
alien-generation system in it that can be used for other systems.  Some of<BR>
the other liscence books have good campaign info (like GURPS: Riverworld,<BR>
GURPS: War With the Chtorr, GURPS: Discworld, GURPS: Humanx, etc).  Some of<BR>
the technology books have good ideas in them too (Ultra-Tech and<BR>
Ultra-Tech2, Biotech).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:44:46 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> Does anyone _else_ know the issue? Would anyone be willing<BR>
> to sell it to me directly?<BR>
<BR>
You are actually willing to pay for the issue number? WOW!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:05:10 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Names<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Two brothers, Nipper & Titch Hardwick - definitely underworld types.<BR>
><BR>
> Wow, my name would be Thomas Hardwick!<BR>
<BR>
Maybe I'm revealing too much here, but when I was much younger<BR>
and saw my first (and only so far as you know) 'adult' film involving<BR>
Debbie and a certain Texas town, I'll never forget that there was<BR>
a character called Mr. Hardwick.  Why won't I forget it?  Because<BR>
just then a tornado hit town, and my friends and I had to spend an<BR>
hour in three feet of water at the bottom of a tornado shelter.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:11:59 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In fact, one of the larger markets for diamond film deposition is<BR>
> eyeglasses; makes 'em harder than anything else to scratch.<BR>
<BR>
Ooh ooh ooh.<BR>
<BR>
Diamond lensed sunglasses!  A must for ever ex-navy pilot!<BR>
In a pinch, pop the lens out of the frame and use the sharp<BR>
edge to cut through stuff.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:17:45 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The connection between the two seems clear. Both technocracy<BR>
> and feudalism would lie outside the market economy. Both systems<BR>
> are based on the exchange of services, rather than cash. Therefore,<BR>
> these characteristics would be fundamental to Feudal Technocracy.<BR>
<BR>
By that definition, which I'm not quibbling with, I haven't messed with<BR>
FTs much, Star Trek's Federation is an FT.<BR>
<BR>
> "Feudal technocracies" are Utopian communities, made up of small<BR>
> collective units who exchange goods and services under the<BR>
> guidance of a coordinating agency of technocrats.<BR>
> The exact features of a FT will vary from case to case,<BR>
> but certain features stand out.<BR>
<BR>
They could also be Dystopian, with their efforts going towards<BR>
survival, maintenance of critical life support technology (being<BR>
too sensitive and valuable let just anyone handle it).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:36:03 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing List (TML) <Traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:07 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From FFS pg58 (paraphrasing)<BR>
> "ESA is a low-yield electrical field which surrounds the<BR>
> protected target. When projectiles hit the field it gets<BR>
> Vapo-ized. Works only against kinetic weapons;<BR>
> Lasers etc. don't work that well."<BR>
><BR>
What kind of effect or force is this based on? Why do projectiles vaporize when hitting ESA?<BR>
 <BR>
> "Don't Panic" ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Trying har not to... I'm just confused on the whole concept.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:38:48 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Greetings!  I am new on this list and would like to get some 411.  I have<BR>
been a CT fan/player/ref<BR>
for many, many years (since early 80's) and would like to know what where<BR>
peopel are from on the list.  I always try and find Trav relatives whether<BR>
Vilani, Vargr, Aslan, etc...   maybe a game or two for those in my area.<BR>
Also, does anyone have information regarding the 2000 schedule for gaming<BR>
conventions here in the US?<BR>
Thanx in advance.  E-mail me privately so we don't eat up the list time.<BR>
<BR>
Lock and load, boyz.  It's party time!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andy MacMillian<BR>
Black Hills<BR>
Spearfish, South Dakota<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:35:51 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: Cutter Submissions<BR>
<BR>
As one of the co-authors of the book, I would like to personally encourage <BR>
people to submit their modules designs.<BR>
<BR>
As someone pointed out earlier, the submission deadline was listed as being May <BR>
10th. Ooops. That has been corrected - the new deadline is the 20th.<BR>
<BR>
If you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to email me.<BR>
<BR>
Andy Akins<BR>
igor@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:51:23 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Peter writes:<BR>
<BR>
> 1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
> tell I run TNE)<BR>
No idea.  Pocket Empires might be good for TNE.<BR>
> 2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
Depends what you want to run.  First In and Far Trader are both good and have<BR>
a lot of generic information.  Any of the aliens books should be useful if<BR>
you want to use the races covered, as they're quite generic (though most <BR>
of the information would be out of date for TNE).<BR>
> 3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most useful<BR>
> GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
For what?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:26:36 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
On 11 May 00, at 4:57, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Keep in mind that for stuff *expected* to be exposed to the elements, you<BR>
> can "rust" it *on purpose* under controlled conditions, which produces a<BR>
> hard *tough* coat that will resist further "rusting". <BR>
> <BR>
> They did that with a railroad bridge they built here in the late 80s. The<BR>
> old bridge had been a center pivot design. The replacement was a lift span<BR>
> (which more than doubled the wdth of the channel!). <BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway, the steel is this uniform "rust brown" and doesn't *need*<BR>
> painting.<BR>
> <BR>
> On a smaller scale, the bluing on a gun is similar. <BR>
<BR>
And before blueing was invented they used to brown musket barrels.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
> "blue" the entire hull on a ship. <BR>
<BR>
I'm sure you could, seeing as you could do it on earth today given the <BR>
righ setup. You can get home blusing kits for repairing the blueing on <BR>
a rifle or adding blueing to a knife, and they work in a normal <BR>
atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
> Keep in mind that paint is a *nuisance* in a lot of ways. For one<BR>
> thing, one even a measly 100 ton ship, it weighs a *lot*. Hundreds of<BR>
> kilos, probably. That's why they quit painting the external tank on the<BR>
> Space shuttle and stsarted leaving it the natural brown color of the<BR>
> insulation. Even airlines do it. The "mostly unpainted" American Airlines<BR>
> type paint job saves a *lot* of fuel on long flights.<BR>
<BR>
The B29 Superfortress was left unpainted because it added a few m/hr to <BR>
its speed, BTW.<BR>
<BR>
> Anyway, ferrous alloys can be given rather nice brown, blue, or black<BR>
> oxide coats. Check your local gun store to see the colors. Or polish a<BR>
> piece of scrap iron, and heat one end and watch the "temper colors" run up<BR>
> it. From a faint "straw yellow" thru a brown, to a *beautiful* blue,<BR>
> peacock purple and black.<BR>
> <BR>
> Metals like aluminum and titanium can be anodized. Again it's an oxide<BR>
> coat, but clear this time. *But*, there are ways to get pigments<BR>
> incorporated into the coat. Which can get you some *lovely* metallic<BR>
> blues, greens, reds, etc. And since the coatings are only slightly softer<BR>
> than diamond, you've got a lasting finish.<BR>
> <BR>
> Corrosive chemicals can damage any of these finishes, though. And<BR>
> physical damage (dents, dings, melting) will damage the finish.<BR>
> <BR>
> One thing that can do to *some* metals, but (last I heard) haven't<BR>
> figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
> *diamond*. <BR>
> <BR>
> *That* will resist corrosion. Just keep the hull temp below white hot...<BR>
<BR>
However diamond will burn, so don't go too fast in dense high oxygen <BR>
atmospheres :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:32:51 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 0:36, Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
> To: Traveller Mailing List (TML) <Traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:07 PM<BR>
> Subject: RE: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > >From FFS pg58 (paraphrasing)<BR>
> > "ESA is a low-yield electrical field which surrounds the<BR>
> > protected target. When projectiles hit the field it gets<BR>
> > Vapo-ized. Works only against kinetic weapons;<BR>
> > Lasers etc. don't work that well."<BR>
> ><BR>
> What kind of effect or force is this based on? Why do projectiles vaporize<BR>
> when hitting ESA?<BR>
<BR>
Basically the low power field is there as a sensor - when it gets <BR>
disrupted by an object entering it the ESA system dicharges some nice <BR>
big HPGs through the field, vapourising the offending projectile. Kinda <BR>
like a big lightning gun effect. In game terms it adds AV vs certain <BR>
types of attack. It gets full value vs plasma/fusion attacks, and HEAP <BR>
rounds because the low mass of the jet is easy to break up, and it gets <BR>
1/2AV vs KEAP rounds (even though they are what ESAs are supposed to be <BR>
working against).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:44:39 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 11 May 2000, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> Basically the low power field is there as a sensor - when it gets <BR>
> disrupted by an object entering it the ESA system dicharges some nice <BR>
> big HPGs through the field, vapourising the offending projectile. Kinda <BR>
> like a big lightning gun effect. In game terms it adds AV vs certain <BR>
> types of attack. It gets full value vs plasma/fusion attacks, and HEAP <BR>
> rounds because the low mass of the jet is easy to break up, and it gets <BR>
> 1/2AV vs KEAP rounds (even though they are what ESAs are supposed to be <BR>
> working against).<BR>
<BR>
I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I don't<BR>
have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
<BR>
From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
11:44pm up 5 days, 4:46, 3 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.02<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:57:42 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: T4 Combat System?<BR>
<BR>
Dom Said:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm. It occurs to me that T4 had the first version of a combat system<BR>
> for Traveller I actually really liked.<BR>
<BR>
I think you're referring to personal/ground combat?  Is it really<BR>
that different from CT?  I don't remember tables in CT...<BR>
ah, THOSE tables.  Well, it seems we never used them.  Therefore,<BR>
I guess I'll agree with you!<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:52 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
Thank you very much Chris!<BR>
<BR>
That's not actually the cover shot.  The cover looks MUCH better :)<BR>
<BR>
I'm running Ligtwave 5.6 (have 6, but haven't converted over yet) on a Dell<BR>
PIII-800, 256meg RIMM, 40gb hdd, GeForce 64meg vid, with Win 98SE, but you<BR>
can run it on as "little" as a P266, 64meg, 1/2Gb system.  I wouldn't<BR>
recommend a system THAT low though.  You really want as much memory as<BR>
possible.  I consider 128megs the minimum required.  For Mac Heads, you can<BR>
run LW on PowerMac, PowerPC or greater, System 8.6 or greater, and 64megs.<BR>
Same memory recommendation stands.  LW runs ~$2300 for L[6], ~$1,800 for<BR>
v5.6 if you can still find it.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris Dixon<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:04 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Still I'm continually blown away by your site every time I look at it.<BR>
><BR>
> The Rim of Fire cover looks great. BTW I'm curious what that monster<BR>
> station has in the way of offensive/defensive capabilities (besides a<BR>
> carried squadron of Battle Ships).<BR>
><BR>
> Just out of curiosity (coupled with the fact that I can't draw stick<BR>
> figures)<BR>
><BR>
> What software package do you use?<BR>
><BR>
> What does your "Home PC" look like - memory, video card, processing<BR>
> speed etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Just in case I get the wild idea that "anyone can do 3-d".<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks and I hope you keep at it for a long long time.<BR>
><BR>
> Chris<BR>
> ----------------------<BR>
> Jesse Wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> The cool thing is, that with a little time (okay, and some $$$ to drop<BR>
> on a<BR>
> decent program) ANYONE can learn how to do 3D.  Sure, a conventional<BR>
> artistic background WILL help, but the beauty is you can be the type<BR>
> that<BR>
> can't draw a straight line to save your life, but still be able to<BR>
> create<BR>
> cool stuff in 3D.<BR>
><BR>
> Have a great one, and thanks!<BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:21:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
At 03:38 PM 5/11/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Greetings!  <BR>
<BR>
welcome!  I am Doug Berry, The Keeper of Penguins, and all around loud-mouth.<BR>
<BR>
I live in San Francisco, as do several other TMLers.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2417<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2418</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 12 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2418<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
RE: New-be wants to know<BR>
RE: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: Updates to battle rider<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: House Mechanics<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2417<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
IW material<BR>
Re: IW material<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
Re: New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [almost as long]<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:48:46 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Just out of curiosity (coupled with the fact that I can't draw stick<BR>
> figures)<BR>
> <BR>
> What software package do you use?<BR>
> <BR>
> What does your "Home PC" look like - memory, video card, processing<BR>
> speed etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just in case I get the wild idea that "anyone can do 3-d".<BR>
<BR>
Check out www.3d.com, and download Strata3D. (It's about 25 megs or so)<BR>
It's free, and quite powerful. Anything that Jesse does, technically,<BR>
can pretty much be done with Strata...of course, you have to be as good<BR>
as Jesse, which is why my stuff doesn't look like his. I also don't<BR>
practice enough.;-)<BR>
<BR>
Runs on a PC or Mac, you want 128 mb or more of RAM, a decent speed CPU,<BR>
and a Video card supporting 32 bit color. My Mac is (now, hooraay) an<BR>
300 mHz G3-upgrade equipped 7600, 192 mb ram, about 20 gb of assorted<BR>
hard drives attached, with a scanner, cd-burner, and a graphics tablet,<BR>
which REALLY helps a LOT. Wacom makes quite a decent USB Mac/PC one for<BR>
$99, too, a good deal. Some of this stuff I did on a 75 mhz PowerMac<BR>
7200, which was roughly the speed of a 90 mhz pentium, and 64 mb of RAM.<BR>
It works, but slowly.<BR>
<BR>
First, though, the top ten rules of 3D art:<BR>
<BR>
Rule #1 99% of the art takes place in Photoshop, making the textures,<BR>
not in the 3D app making the models.<BR>
<BR>
Rules #2-10: See rule #1.<BR>
<BR>
see: (sorry for all the separate links but I haven't gotten around to<BR>
fixing up a real gallery yet. Maybe this weekend I'll just sit down and<BR>
frickin' do my web site up properly. Of course I've been saying that for<BR>
months now.)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/bustedflush.jpg<BR>
<BR>
A Suleiman, the 'Busted Flush'. (Yes Jesse, I still haven't fixed the<BR>
weird nose)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/checkered_balls.jpg<BR>
<BR>
A quickie done up for the Strata list to demonstrate two golf ball bump<BR>
maps I have.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/hometest.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Will be my home page image map someday<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/orrimot.jpg<BR>
<BR>
A hippie ship of the future.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/three_cargo_containers.jpg<BR>
<BR>
A test rendering showing I'd finally gotten the damn hull texture<BR>
technique down! yaaay!<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/skysail.jpg<BR>
<BR>
My latest, this is not as good as I'd like, needs a better background. I<BR>
intended the large pyramid thing to be an antigrav resort city, but a<BR>
co-worker says I''ve been watching Stargate SG-1 too much. It _is_ a<BR>
good likeness of a Goa'uld mothership. :-/<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/spacetruck2.jpg<BR>
<BR>
The vehicle that those cargo containers go to. An in system delivery<BR>
vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/porchlight.jpg<BR>
<BR>
That vehicle coasting in to land on an asteroid base.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/weirdtube.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Just something I was playing with.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/necklace.jpg<BR>
<BR>
My wife says if I can render a REAL one I can buy a new computer ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:16:23 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
At 05:48 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>and a graphics tablet,<BR>
>which REALLY helps a LOT. Wacom makes quite a decent USB Mac/PC one for<BR>
>$99, too, a good deal.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I gotta ask:  what do you do with it?  I've never used one, and at this <BR>
point wouldn't know what to do with it... Not that I can do 3D anyway, but <BR>
I keep trying....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:31:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Greetings from San Jose, California Andy!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of adsr<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:39 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: New-be wants to know<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Greetings!  I am new on this list and would like to get some 411.  I have<BR>
> been a CT fan/player/ref<BR>
> for many, many years (since early 80's) and would like to know what where<BR>
> peopel are from on the list.  I always try and find Trav relatives whether<BR>
> Vilani, Vargr, Aslan, etc...   maybe a game or two for those in my area.<BR>
> Also, does anyone have information regarding the 2000 schedule for gaming<BR>
> conventions here in the US?<BR>
> Thanx in advance.  E-mail me privately so we don't eat up the list time.<BR>
><BR>
> Lock and load, boyz.  It's party time!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Andy MacMillian<BR>
> Black Hills<BR>
> Spearfish, South Dakota<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:40:55 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
A tablet is nearly ESSENTIAL for having good control while painting texture<BR>
maps.<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:16 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 05:48 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >and a graphics tablet,<BR>
> >which REALLY helps a LOT. Wacom makes quite a decent USB Mac/PC one for<BR>
> >$99, too, a good deal.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Ok, I gotta ask:  what do you do with it?  I've never used one,<BR>
> and at this<BR>
> point wouldn't know what to do with it... Not that I can do 3D<BR>
> anyway, but<BR>
> I keep trying....<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                           			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:59:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Updates to battle rider<BR>
<BR>
>1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
>tell I run TNE)<BR>
On the balance, I would recommend FFS2. You can pick and choose system<BR>
upgrades to add - for example, FFS2 life support systems are more interesting/<BR>
detailed; and then there are the more realistic sensor sizes/rules,<BR>
better low-tech rockets, etc. You need a bucket<BR>
of errata, of course. Even with errata FFS2 is so badly edited that it's only<BR>
useful to<BR>
FFS1 owners...which does describe you, fortunately.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:57:10 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > In fact, one of the larger markets for diamond film deposition is<BR>
> > eyeglasses; makes 'em harder than anything else to scratch.<BR>
><BR>
> Ooh ooh ooh.<BR>
><BR>
> Diamond lensed sunglasses!  A must for ever ex-navy pilot!<BR>
> In a pinch, pop the lens out of the frame and use the sharp<BR>
> edge to cut through stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds more like a Scout thing than a Navy thing...(maybe INI?)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:03:10 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: House Mechanics<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-11 20:39:00 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< I think he's asking if that means Tantalus and their sub-licensees <BR>
 are the only people who can use the House Rules system from Dark <BR>
 Conspiracy, T2K 2nd edition and TNE.<BR>
 <BR>
 Could, for example, Marc publish T5 using the House Rules if he wanted to?<BR>
 <BR>
 Dom<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Well, that's an interestng question and I'm not sure what the answer is. How <BR>
close do the mechanics have to be before it is a derivative work? D*mned if I <BR>
know. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:05:07 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2417<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-11 20:39:00 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< What kind of effect or force is this based on? Why do projectiles vaporize <BR>
when hitting ESA?<BR>
   >><BR>
<BR>
It is kinda like a bug-zapper . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:13:29 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On<BR>
<BR>
Robert Conley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > problem culd be getting licence to operate said machine...the government might<BR>
> > worry if "taking over the world" is listed on end-use certificate...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Other Rob<BR>
><BR>
> These Lasers are designed to have a focal point only inches away from the<BR>
> emitter. I dont think they would make a effective weapon. Remember these<BR>
> has to cut plate metal on a table that is about 3 feet high. So if it can<BR>
> burn much beyond the plate then you will be cutting up your table.<BR>
><BR>
> In addition the companies making these lasers would have be pursuing<BR>
> design requirements optimized for commerical use particulary in the<BR>
> optics. This generally would make a metal cutting laser unsuitable for<BR>
> weapon use.<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
I know...but it sounds fun anyway...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:40:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> > Does anyone _else_ know the issue? Would anyone be willing<BR>
> > to sell it to me directly?<BR>
> <BR>
> You are actually willing to pay for the issue number? WOW!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Note I didn't specify HOW MUCH I was willing to pay... or which<BR>
currency.:-)<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, does anyone know which issue of High Passage featured<BR>
an article on governments by Marc Miller? If anyone would like to sell<BR>
me *the issue* I would be willing to pay handsomely for it. (Or you can<BR>
exchange it for High Passage #3, of which i have a copy.)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:54:58 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Ultimate strength = where the metal breaks<BR>
Yield strength = where the metal starts to deform plastically.<BR>
<BR>
Metals will deform elastically at the beginning.  If you take<BR>
the load off, they will return to their original shape.  Past<BR>
the yield strength, the metal begins to deform elastically,<BR>
which means they don't recover the deformation (except for a<BR>
little bit).<BR>
<BR>
In addition to oxide coatings, metals can actually have the<BR>
surface made into a different alloy than the main body of the<BR>
metal.  This is usually done to build a very hard but brittle<BR>
surface on a strong, but flexible part.  You can also plate<BR>
metals on metals as well.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone wants more info on this stuff, feel free to ask me.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:18:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 11 May 00, at 9:18, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a<BR>
> conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on<BR>
> control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a<BR>
> relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly, particularly on<BR>
> worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say thats more a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy or Type C, <BR>
Charismatic Oligarchy (depending on how popular the rulers are).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:18:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
My take on the dread Type 5 govt is fairly simple. Its a government where <BR>
those technically competant in a particular field are responsible for <BR>
governing that field.<BR>
<BR>
For example, roading and transport would be the responsibility of someone <BR>
with demonstrable competance in roading and transport; law and order <BR>
would fall under those with skills in that area etc. I think the best example <BR>
of it would be some municipal governments.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:31:15 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: IW material<BR>
<BR>
Rim of Fire is pretty much done.  I think I'll be able to send you the <BR>
pertinent<BR>
sections of the final draft next week.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting tidbit from tonight's Brubek's chat.  Seems LKW is thinking<BR>
about doing books in other periods of Traveller history.  He plans on<BR>
opening the subject with Marc Miller in a year or so if the relationship<BR>
between SJG and FarFuture remains good.  The implications should be<BR>
obvious :-).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:36:05 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: IW material<BR>
<BR>
Whoops.  Sorry, guys, that wasn't meant to go out to the world.<BR>
<BR>
Although I don't think there was anything particularly private in it.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:59:36 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Roger Howe wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Try here: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/audio.html .<BR>
><BR>
> Only about ten seconds worth in .wav or .au format.<BR>
<BR>
Ok... Couple of little bits... Another cut of hydrogen static and the odd<BR>
pulsar.<BR>
Bit by bit I'm building up to a point where I can start mixing.<BR>
<BR>
I got some Whale song mixed with some New Age Muzak For ambient fill.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:55:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/11/00 12:24 PM, p.scarrott@btinternet.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> 2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
GT:BtC is mostly flavour text, like world write-ups (short), and a general<BR>
run-down on stuff in the Spinward Marches. There is /some/ GURPs specific<BR>
stuff, but what little there is could probably be mined for ideas or<BR>
converted to your preferred rule-set. Some real cool art too, and not just<BR>
Jesse's outstanding renderings, but some great line art, and a few mixed<BR>
media pieces. GT:FI deals mostly with rules for the process of making star<BR>
systems, and as such can be inserted into /any/ ruleset. Good flavour text<BR>
in that one too, and again, lots of art. And deckplans for the Donosev and<BR>
the Fast Courier. And an X-Boat, in case you plan on boarding one. The<BR>
X-Boat Tender is there too. GT:FT is filled with more GURPs rules, but also<BR>
deckplans for the Marava and Beowulf Traders, and more excellent flavour<BR>
text. I am not really quallified to comment on the economy rules, but I<BR>
would guess that like the First In rules, they are far enough behind the<BR>
scenes to be used with any rule-set. That is all the GT I have, and I have<BR>
not one other GURPs book, yet I am quite happy with what I have purchased.<BR>
For all my dislike for the system itself, the books are fantastic. Not even<BR>
any errors in grammar or spelling that I have found, and very few typos.<BR>
There are a couple ref's to a page "00" and at least one missing space, but<BR>
that is negligible. Try proof-reading a White Wolf product. I love much of<BR>
the WOD, but methinks their editors are asleep at the wheel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:25:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the list!<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith, Spear-Carrier of the Classic Traveller Resurgence<BR>
(Wife, three kids, been gaming since the little black books came out.)<BR>
<BR>
Ringmaster of the Traveller Starship Deckplans Webring<BR>
http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm<BR>
<BR>
Oneonta*, New York<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*Oneonta is five hours northwest of the New York everyone knows about.  <BR>
It's a nice little town near the headwaters of the Susquehannah River, <BR>
two colleges, one gaming store, surroundings alternate between areas of <BR>
mostly trees and areas of mostly cows.  We used to have the biggest <BR>
railroad roundhouse in the world, and we still have the caboose within <BR>
which was held the first meeting of the railroad brakemen's union - <BR>
widely regarded as the founders of the modern American labor movement.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:09:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the list, I think you will find this list to be a godsend. There<BR>
are members of an enormous variety of career paths, nationality, and<BR>
probably just about whatever box might show up on a census. Most importantly<BR>
/all/ rule-sets are covered here, and with the number of folks with access<BR>
to various publications, this list can be superb for cross-reffing sources,<BR>
checking errata, finding appropriate obscure rules, etc. Even the Traveller<BR>
Elders (ie: Loren, Marc, Jon, Jesse, and a plethora of other contributers to<BR>
the Taveller Universe.) query the list for information, suggestions, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Myself? Introduced to Traveller around eight or nine years ago, reconnected<BR>
with the guy (Hypercleats) who had the books (LBB's) around four years ago<BR>
to find his bro had trashed the stuff. So now we are reacquiring all that,<BR>
and have found GT to be great too. Well, Hypercleats isn't /as/ keen, but<BR>
mainly 'cuz it contradict's his campaign notes, as time has moved on. BIT's<BR>
put's out another series that is easy to splice into any rule-set, so we're<BR>
grabbing up those as funds allow.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:14:34 EDT<BR>
From: TOCoons@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: New/Old Traveller Material and machine translation [almost as long]<BR>
<BR>
Last year the Utah National Guard decided my Spanish skills weren't good <BR>
enough for them to hire me as a civilian translator, but since nobody's life, <BR>
liberty or property is at stake here, I'll give it a try.<BR>
<BR>
>  El  segundo  Oficial  Clarke  llevaba  6  aos  en  la  Armada Mercante del<BR>
>  Subsector  de Gulf al producirse la absorcin de la pequea naviera para la<BR>
>  que  trabajaba  por  una  megacorporacin.  Clarke esperaba cambios con los<BR>
>  nuevos propietarios, pero lo que ocurri le sorprendi.<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  Second  Officer  Clarke  had spent six 6 years in the Merchant Navy of Gulf<BR>
>  Subsector  when  the  shipping  line <for which she worked> was absorbed <BR>
by a<BR>
>  megacorporation.   Clarke  <waited for> changes with the new <BR>
<proprietors>, but<BR>
>  what happened surprised him.<BR>
An error and a couple of inferior choices. "por la cual", means "for which", <BR>
referring to something gramatically feminine, namely ("la naveria"), the <BR>
shipping line, so the first bracketed phrase would come out better as <he <BR>
worked for>. For the second,  I would read <expected>  instead of <waited <BR>
for>, and in the third, <owners> instead of <proprietors>.<BR>
<BR>
>  Fue transferido a La Marca Espiral e integrado dentro de la organizacin de<BR>
>  la  megacorporacin,  la  cual  le  prepar para una nueva funcin.  Clarke<BR>
>  conservara  su  rango tcnico como Segundo Oficial, pero sera transferido<BR>
>  con  cierta  frecuencia  de  carguero  a  carguero.   Su  misin real sera<BR>
>  observar  a  las tripulaciones de la naviera y descubrir cualquier clase de<BR>
>  irregularidad  (desde  pequeas  incompetencias hasta los delitos contra la<BR>
>  corporacin que cualquier tripulante o capitn pudiera cometer).<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  He  was  transferred  to  the Spinward Marches within the megacorporation's<BR>
>  organization  and <given> a new job.  Clarke would keep his <technical> <BR>
rank of<BR>
>  Second  Officer, but he would be transferred periodically from freighter to<BR>
>  freighter.   His real mission would be to observe the crews of the shipping<BR>
>  line  and  to  uncover  any  irregularities  (from  minor incompetencies to<BR>
>  crimes  against  the  corporation  that  any  crew  member or captain might<BR>
>  commit).<BR>
The first bracketed expression I would read <trained for>. For the second, <BR>
although a literal translation of "tecnico" as "technical  could probably be <BR>
justified, I would take "official" to be clearer, since no technological <BR>
skill is implied.<BR>
<BR>
>  Clarke  se  senta incmodo al principio con su papel dentro de la naviera,<BR>
>  pero poco a poco fue experimentando una satisfaccin creciente al descubrir<BR>
>  las faltas grandes y pequeas de los empleados de la corporacin y observar<BR>
>  las  rpidas destituciones o despidos.  Clarke se convirti progresivamente<BR>
>  en  un  astuto observador y consigui detectar un gran nmero de delitos en<BR>
>  varias tripulaciones.<BR>
You have <BR>
>  Clarke  felt  some  discomfort at first with his <briefing from> the <BR>
shipping<BR>
>  line,  but  little by little he <experienced an> increasing satisfaction <BR>
<when><BR>
>  discovering  the large and small <[lack]> of the employees of the <BR>
corporation<BR>
>  and  <to  observe>  the  fast  demotions  or dismissals. Clarke <BR>
progressively<BR>
>  became  an  astute observer and was able to detect a large number of crimes<BR>
>  in several crews.<BR>
I would read the first expression <role within>. The second reads more easily <BR>
as simply <felt>. The third I would take as <as he discovered>. "faltas" can <BR>
mean "lacks", but in this context, a stronger word like <faults> would be <BR>
more appropriate. <al descibrir...y observar> would be better rendered  <upon <BR>
discovering> ...< observing>, instead of <when discovering> ... <to observe><BR>
<BR>
>  Su  xito  fue  correspondido por la naviera con importantes bonifacaciones<BR>
>  financieras  y  otras  ventajas.  Clarke era siempre encubierto y protegido<BR>
>  por  la  naviera;  la mayora de tripulantes despedidos o destituidos no se<BR>
>  explican cmo fueron descubiertos.<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  [His   success  was  corresponded  by  shipping  with  important  financial<BR>
>  bonifacaciones  and  other  advantages.]  Clarke  was  always concealed and<BR>
>  protected by the shipping line; and most of  dismissed or demoted crew <BR>
> never learned how they were discovered.<BR>
I would render the first sentence as [His success was rewarded by the <BR>
shipping line with substantial financial bonuses and other benefits].  In the <BR>
last sentence, I would insert <the> before "dismissed" and <members> after <BR>
crew, since "tripulacion" refers to "crew", "Tripulaciones" would be "crews"  <BR>
and "tripulantes" would be "crew members".<BR>
<BR>
>  Con el tiempo, Clarke empez a darse cuenta de que no consegua revelar ms<BR>
>  que   infracciones   menores   en  las  ordenanzas  o  pequeos  robos  sin<BR>
>  importancia.   Empez  a creer que alguien le haba descubierto y que haba<BR>
>  corrido  la voz entre las tripulaciones.  El nmero de delitos descubiertos<BR>
>  por  Clarke  descenda,  y  esto  era  algo  que no podia permitir.  Clarke<BR>
>  decidi   fabricar   evidencias  falsas  y  comprometer  a  inocentes  para<BR>
>  mantenerse  en  su  posicin.   Esta  prctica le ha sido productiva, y las<BR>
>  cosas vuelven a irle viento en popa.<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  With  time, Clarke began to realize that he was not able to reveal anything<BR>
>  more  than <smaller> infractions in regulations or unimportant thefts.<BR>
>  He began to think that somebody had discovered him and that <rumours <BR>
between<BR>
>  crews  had spread>. The number of crimes discovered by Clarke diminshed, <BR>
and<BR>
>  this  was something that he could not allow.  Clarke decided to plant false<BR>
>  evidences  and  to  <jeopardize>  innocent employees to stay in his <BR>
position.<BR>
>  This practice has been productive for him, and things started to improve.<BR>
<BR>
In this context, "menores" should be <minor> instead of <smaller>, and we <BR>
would probably say <petty> instead of  "small"  thefts. Next, it would be the <BR>
somebody that had "discovered" him who was "spreading the word" among crews. <BR>
Finally, I would read <compromise>, instead of jeopardize, since his planting <BR>
of false evidence indicates that he is intentionally plotting against <BR>
people's careers rather than accidentally endangering them.<BR>
<BR>
>  Clarke  considera  que  est haciendo una labor honesta y eficiente, ya que<BR>
>  segn  l  los  empleado  despedidos  tras una de sus conspiraciones iban a<BR>
>  cometer  un  delito  contra  la  corporacin  igualmente  en el futuro.  Su<BR>
>  depuracin  preventiva  de  la  corporacin es una tarea tan sublime que no<BR>
>  puede revelarlo a sus superiores, ya que estos no entenderan lo importante<BR>
>  de su misin.  Clarke se considera astuto y valiente por llevar a cabo esta<BR>
>  accin,  ya  que  para  ella  no  ha  pedido ayuda a nadie y es tan slo su<BR>
>  inteligencia la que le permite tener el xito que tiene.<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  Clarke  considers  that  he  is  working  honestly  and  efficiently, since<BR>
>  according to him employees dismissed <after a conspiracy> <are> going to <BR>
commit<BR>
>  a   crime   against  the  corporation  in  the  future.   His  preventative<BR>
>  'delousing'  of  the  corporation  is a so sublime a task that it cannot be<BR>
>  revealed  to  his superiors, since they would not understand the importance<BR>
>  of  his  mission. Clarke considers himself astute and brave in carrying out<BR>
>  this  action,  since  he has not requested help from anybody and it is only<BR>
>  his intelligence that allows him to be as successful as he is.<BR>
<BR>
"tras sus conspiraciones" means more like <because of his plotting> than <BR>
<after a conspiracy>, and the <are> should be <were>.<BR>
<BR>
>  En  realidad,  Clarke no es ms que un delator despreciable que no entiende<BR>
>  cul  debera  ser  su  funcin  (y  si  esta  debera  existir realmente),<BR>
>  excusndose  a  s mismo de sus acciones con argumentos que no se tienen en<BR>
>  pie  para seguir manteniendo su posicin de informador y para enriquecerse.<BR>
>  Desafortunadamente,  es  difcil que sea descubierto, aunque sus superiores<BR>
>  empiezan  a  preguntarse si no sera necesario situar a un informador cerca<BR>
>  de Clarke para que descubra que es lo que est ocurriendo realmente.  Sera<BR>
>  un final irnico pero apropiado para Clarke.<BR>
You have:<BR>
>  [In  fact,  Clarke  is  no  more  than  a  despicable informer who does not<BR>
>  understand  which  would have to be its function (and if this would have to<BR>
>  really  exist)  ]   He  <excuses his actions to himself> with <arguments> <BR>
about<BR>
>  maintaining  his position as informer and becoming rich.  Unfortunately, it<BR>
>  is  difficult for him to be <discovered>, although his superiors are <BR>
starting<BR>
>  to  ask themselves if it might not be necessary to locate an informer close<BR>
>  to  Clarke to discover what is really happening.  It would be an ironic but<BR>
>  appropriate end for Clarke.<BR>
I would render this as <BR>
<In reality, Clarke is no more than a despicable snitch who does not <BR>
understand<BR>
what his job should be (if it should even exist)>.<BR>
The next would be more idiomatically "He excuses himself for his actions", <BR>
and the "argumentos que no se tienen de pie" or "arguments that cannot stand <BR>
up" are "rationalizations". The last "discovered" in brackets would be better <BR>
rendered "uncovered".<BR>
<BR>
I see that Carlos has already said some of the same things, so maybe I _can_ <BR>
translate Spanish...better than Babelfish, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:05:40 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>What I'm getting at here is that there would be interlocking necessities<BR>
>which would require high levels of specialized technical knowledge and<BR>
>skill, and that these people who have these high levels could, and probably<BR>
>would, form "power blocs". It's not too hard to see these blocs growing into<BR>
>a system of interlocking obligations of the sort that feudalism is based on.<BR>
>Such a government can be based on a wide variety of technologies.<BR>
<BR>
So normally a high tech society requires a few billion people to ensure that<BR>
someone is available to fix any one of the vast array of possible problems.<BR>
<BR>
The +1 tech for gov 5 repesents a way that a world with a small population<BR>
can organise to maintain a higher tech than might be expected.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds good.<BR>
<BR>
Your explanation also reveals the significance of Paranoia having editions,<BR>
1, 2 and 5.<BR>
<BR>
It's just the government codes that the designers were using for Alpha complex<BR>
at the time.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2418<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 12 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2419<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Sausages?(Re: Updates to Battle Rider)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long) > <BR>
Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
He said the "P" word!<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies <BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
RE: New-be wants to know<BR>
OT: Seeking Matador Novels<BR>
Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
OT: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Weird requests....<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Other non-Brittish non-Californian list members<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:39:23 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
<BR>
Maybe I'm revealing too much here, but when I was much younger<BR>
and saw my first (and only so far as you know) 'adult' film involving<BR>
Debbie and a certain Texas town, I'll never forget that there was<BR>
a character called Mr. Hardwick.  Why won't I forget it?  Because<BR>
just then a tornado hit town, and my friends and I had to spend an<BR>
hour in three feet of water at the bottom of a tornado shelter.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
Gotta be worried about a higher power at work huh?<BR>
<BR>
M<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 03:58:20 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 11 May 2000 13:39:30 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>-----Original Message-----<BR>
>From: Peter [mailto:p.scarrott@btinternet.com]<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most useful<BR>
>GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
><BR>
>I like some of the self-contained sourcebooks for the good overview they<BR>
>provide - GURPS Russia, GURPS Aztecs, etc.  GURPS Uplift has an excellent<BR>
>alien-generation system in it that can be used for other systems.  Some of<BR>
>the other liscence books have good campaign info (like GURPS: Riverworld,<BR>
>GURPS: War With the Chtorr, GURPS: Discworld, GURPS: Humanx, etc).  Some of<BR>
>the technology books have good ideas in them too (Ultra-Tech and<BR>
>Ultra-Tech2, Biotech).<BR>
<BR>
I have to agree here. I used several GURPS world books long before I<BR>
ever bought the Basic Set. In fact, I had GURPS Vikings ten years ago.<BR>
I only bought the Basic Set *last* year!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Everything has an end, except sausages, which have two."     -Viking Proverb<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:11:06 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 11 May 00, at 9:18, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just <BR>
> a conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status <BR>
> being based on control of land, its based on control of available <BR>
> technology.  That's a relatively believable form of government to    <BR>
> pop up regularly, particularly on worlds that are somewhat hostile <BR>
> to life.<BR>
<BR>
I don't find this concept terribly interesting or believable.  The key <BR>
seems to be when confronted with the phrase feudal technocracy<BR>
most folks focus of the feudal and only incidentally tack on the <BR>
technocracy part.  The idea that a FT is going to look anything like <BR>
medieval Europe or premodern Japan honestly seems rather silly to <BR>
me.  Concepts based out of the 1930 technocracy movement, <BR>
where the engineer/leaders have become a separate caste with <BR>
difficult entrance exams which once passed grant the new <BR>
technocrat all manner of rights and responsibilities seems much <BR>
more fun, interesting, and reasonable.  <BR>
<BR>
The idea that someone here had about a FT being an alternative <BR>
politico-economic to markets is great.  From what I remember <BR>
about the 30s technocrats were basically talking some form of <BR>
planned economy which is based upon increasing productivity and <BR>
return to the citizens rather than ideology.  Given that there are a <BR>
number of moderate to high population FTs (like Darrian) further <BR>
exploration of this type of government would a really nifty.  Then <BR>
again I'm very much a fan of almost any alternative to market <BR>
capitalism :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:25:18 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Sausages?(Re: Updates to Battle Rider)<BR>
<BR>
Pete schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
> "Everything has an end, except sausages, which have two."     -Viking Proverb<BR>
> Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
> NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And I humble thought it was from a German songwriter...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:00:17 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long) > <BR>
<BR>
"Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Seriously, does anyone know which issue of High Passage featured<BR>
> an article on governments by Marc Miller? If anyone would like to sell<BR>
> me *the issue* I would be willing to pay handsomely for it. (Or you can<BR>
> exchange it for High Passage #3, of which i have a copy.)<BR>
<BR>
Issue #5 p 5-7. Issue #5 is IMNSHO probably the best issue<BR>
of High Passage magazine, perhaps because it was edited by<BR>
J Andrew Keith. Its a 64 page issue. If you can find a copy<BR>
I'd guess it would sell in the $5 to $15 range. AFAIK #5<BR>
was the last issue published & while I've never seen circulation<BR>
figures for High Passage I suspect the print run was rather low.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a spare copy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:07:24 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who sell your Traveller stuff:<BR>
<BR>
I've got a lot of duplicate Traveller stuff I am considering<BR>
selling (no list yet) and I was wondering what method is<BR>
likely to get me the most money? (Even if it's a bit more<BR>
trouble to do.) <BR>
<BR>
I was thinking of selling them on Ebay and posting (once<BR>
only) a list to the TML and to rec.games.frp.marketplace.<BR>
<BR>
How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items <BR>
if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
<BR>
Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
you recommend it?<BR>
<BR>
Is selling multiple copies of the same item at the same<BR>
time likely to result in lower prices? (Obviously basic<BR>
economic theory says it should).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:14:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Your explanation also reveals the significance of Paranoia having editions,<BR>
> 1, 2 and 5. It's just the government codes that the designers were using for <BR>
> Alpha complex at the time.<BR>
<BR>
Logically the next edition of Paranoia should be the <BR>
Tenth Edition since 'The Computer' sure seems to be a<BR>
Charismatic Dictator (government type A).<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Given that GURPS IOU prominently features 'The<BR>
Computer' which seems much like Alpha Complexes<BR>
'The COmputer' (albeit even more sinister) than Alpha<BR>
Complex is arguably canon in GURPS Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Did you ever wonder if the Vilani Empire fell because the<BR>
Vilani never had to deal with any Weirdness Magnets until they<BR>
encountered the Solomani?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:21:41 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 11 May 00, at 23:44, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I<BR>
> don't have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
<BR>
Not that I've seen.<BR>
<BR>
> From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. A man-portable ESA system. Let's see.<BR>
<BR>
With batteries a x20 use, RoF 1/turn system with a TNE AV of 1 would <BR>
weigh 43.3kg - marginal for man-portability, and very uneconomical <BR>
(weight-wise) compared to combat armour.<BR>
<BR>
With fuel cells we get a dry weight of 57.6kg, and a fuel consumption <BR>
of 5.7L per hour (8mL per use).<BR>
<BR>
With EPGs the "dry" weight is 38.6kg and each cell weighs 0.11kg, so 20 <BR>
shots weigh 2.2kg for a total weight of 40.8kg.<BR>
<BR>
One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so <BR>
they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration <BR>
base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use <BR>
EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:49:26 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 11 May 00, at 23:44, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I<BR>
> > don't have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
><BR>
> Not that I've seen.<BR>
><BR>
> > From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm. A man-portable ESA system. Let's see.<BR>
><BR>
> With batteries a x20 use, RoF 1/turn system with a TNE AV of 1 would<BR>
> weigh 43.3kg - marginal for man-portability, and very uneconomical<BR>
> (weight-wise) compared to combat armour.<BR>
><BR>
> With fuel cells we get a dry weight of 57.6kg, and a fuel consumption<BR>
> of 5.7L per hour (8mL per use).<BR>
><BR>
> With EPGs the "dry" weight is 38.6kg and each cell weighs 0.11kg, so 20<BR>
> shots weigh 2.2kg for a total weight of 40.8kg.<BR>
><BR>
> One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so<BR>
> they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration<BR>
> base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use<BR>
> EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:03:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Evyn MacDude" <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
> Ok... Couple of little bits... Another cut of hydrogen static and the odd<BR>
> pulsar.<BR>
> Bit by bit I'm building up to a point where I can start mixing.<BR>
><BR>
> I got some Whale song mixed with some New Age Muzak For ambient fill.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have the URL to a page with Foghorn Leghorn .wav files, would that help?<BR>
:-D<BR>
<BR>
- -BubbleBoy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:31:34 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: He said the "P" word!<BR>
<BR>
Apologies to the list if this has been mentioned before; I've just been<BR>
skimming for a couple of months now, and might have missed it.<BR>
<BR>
Check this out:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.theprivateers.com/<BR>
<BR>
I make no representations or guarantees of any kind, but the weapons<BR>
pictures include lots of swords, and a carbine-looking longarm attached to<BR>
a backpack.<BR>
<BR>
They've also got Walter Koenig's picture among the cast.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:41:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
><BR>
>Hi!<BR>
><BR>
>I've been working on a series of articles for JTAS on the<BR>
>different governments in the Imperium. Eventually, I know<BR>
>I'll have to decide what a "Feudal Technocracy" is, even<BR>
>though this is a controversial topic. So before I commit<BR>
>myself to one position or another, I'd like to offer<BR>
>my own thoughts on the subject, and ask for your feedback.<BR>
><BR>
>We know that FTs are fairly common in the Imperium, and<BR>
>that they tend to be found on fairly low-population worlds.<BR>
>I wanted to fit these facts into a scheme that *made sense*,<BR>
>based on what I knew about the way the world works.<BR>
><BR>
>I felt that a society that was self-consciously modelled<BR>
>on the feudal institutions of medieval Europe would<BR>
>look foolish and bizarre to citizens of the 39th Century AD.<BR>
>It doesn't mean they wouldn't exist, but they wouldn't<BR>
>be very common. I felt that one had to look at the<BR>
>term "feudalism" while ignoring its medieval connotations.<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid that my take on Feudal Technocracy is somewhat different, and<BR>
based much more on medieval roots. As you stated:<BR>
<BR>
>1. Feudalism can be thought of as a mutual exchange of services.<BR>
>The lord gives land and protection to the vassal, and the<BR>
>vassal promises to work for the lord, either as a soldier<BR>
>or as a farmer/peasant. *Labor*, not money, is the medium<BR>
>of exchange.<BR>
<BR>
The lord is still there, all these Barons, Marquise, and Dukes and so forth.<BR>
They agree to serve the Imperium and in return they receive land (which may<BR>
or may not be developed and have people and business on it), stock options<BR>
in the Megacorps, and power in the government. The people (Citizens of the<BR>
Imperium) pay taxes (to their local governments), serve in the Imperial<BR>
government, and receive the benefit of a stable environment. For this system<BR>
to work the aristocracy must have a strong sense of duty to the Imperium as<BR>
a whole, to their own class, and feel a significant responsibility to the<BR>
people who they are entrusted to administer to. AND the ordinary Imperial<BR>
citizen must feel that the noble with whom (s)he regularly deals with has<BR>
the citizen's best interest at heart. Since the Ine Givar movement seems to<BR>
be small most places the majority of Imperium Citizens must feel this way.<BR>
<BR>
According to Britannica's article on technocracies it is a:<BR>
<BR>
"government by technicians who are guided solely by the imperatives of their<BR>
technology. The concept developed in the United States early in the 20th<BR>
century as an expression of the Progressive movement and became a subject of<BR>
considerable public interest in the 1930s during the Great Depression. The<BR>
origins of the technocracy movement may be traced to Frederick W. Taylor's<BR>
introduction of the concept of scientific management. Writers such as Henry<BR>
L. Gannt, Thorstein Veblen, and Howard Scott suggested that businessmen were<BR>
incapable of reforming their industries in the public interest and that<BR>
control of industry should thus be given to engineers."<BR>
 I don't see this as a refutation of the market system. Heck the entire<BR>
economy of the Imperium is based on the free market. What I do see is that<BR>
early in the Imperium cheap fusion power was controlled by Sylea (Fusion+).<BR>
They controlled the technology. With control of cheap power, better jump<BR>
engines than their neighbors, and a stronger economic and military<BR>
infrastructure they managed to dominate. It's a technocracy because they<BR>
dominated to the overall good of the general population.<BR>
<BR>
A technocracy: A government controlled by the technologically gifted elite.<BR>
<BR>
A Feudal government: A government where the elite are bound to each other<BR>
and the people they govern by oaths of fealty.<BR>
<BR>
A Feudal Technocracy: A government of the technological elite bound to each<BR>
other and to the people they govern by oaths of fealty.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:05:23 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
They could also be Dystopian, with their efforts going towards<BR>
survival, maintenance of critical life support technology (being<BR>
too sensitive and valuable let just anyone handle it).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<end snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I can see it now...<BR>
Helper: You get to carry parts. (2 years)<BR>
Apprentice: You get to clean parts. (4 years)<BR>
Journeyman: You get to strip down the parts and determine which pieces are still good and which pieces get recycled. (4 years)<BR>
Master: You get to actually touch the machines when you reinstall the refurbished parts. (requires a minimum of 10 years of previous service, and an annual recertification exam.)<BR>
<BR>
Sounds pretty rough, but then again, when it is the life support system for the colony you are working on, you better get it right the first time...<BR>
:)<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:29:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So normally a high tech society requires a few billion people to ensure<BR>
that<BR>
>someone is available to fix any one of the vast array of possible problems.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't thinking of it that way, but I don't think that's an unreasonable<BR>
description. I was leaning more towards the notion that a living framework<BR>
for the support of life on a given planet would become much more complex<BR>
over time. Individuals could only learn the ins and outs of a given system<BR>
by hands on experience, and this experience would be difficult to acquire.<BR>
Even those who were skilled technicians would have difficulty acquiring this<BR>
knowledge. Those with the proper knowledge would likely band together and<BR>
pursue their own interests. Since the complicated framework would require<BR>
many groups, they would enter into certain agreements with each other which<BR>
were mutually beneficial.<BR>
<BR>
In theory, it would work much like feudalism. That's not to say that there<BR>
have to be titles such as "Baron of the Power Couplings" or "Lord of the Air<BR>
Purification System", but the underlying kernel of interlocking obligations,<BR>
probably "vertical" in nature, would be there.<BR>
<BR>
However, I can certainly see the way you're putting it. With a huge<BR>
population, the chances are better to find someone with the needed skills.<BR>
It would be much more difficult for such "power blocs" to form as a result.<BR>
A community doesn't have to worry about the technicians seizing power,<BR>
because the technicians could be replaced more easily. Do I understand you<BR>
correctly?<BR>
<BR>
>The +1 tech for gov 5 repesents a way that a world with a small population<BR>
>can organise to maintain a higher tech than might be expected.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. I guess if you wanted to rationalize the additional tech level this<BR>
would be a good way to go about it. For the most part, however, I don't use<BR>
the Traveller government tables anyway. I usually like to put a little more<BR>
work into individual world governments, and I don't agree with all of the<BR>
assumptions that the tables make. I do have a semi-logical system which I<BR>
apply from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
>Sounds good.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Your explanation also reveals the significance of Paranoia having editions,<BR>
>1, 2 and 5.<BR>
><BR>
>It's just the government codes that the designers were using for Alpha<BR>
complex<BR>
>at the time.<BR>
><BR>
>;-)<BR>
<BR>
Ha! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:51:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
> Basically the low power field is there as a sensor - when it gets<BR>
>> disrupted by an object entering it the ESA system dicharges some nice<BR>
>> big HPGs through the field, vapourising the offending projectile. Kinda<BR>
>> like a big lightning gun effect. In game terms it adds AV vs certain<BR>
>> types of attack. It gets full value vs plasma/fusion attacks, and HEAP<BR>
>> rounds because the low mass of the jet is easy to break up, and it gets<BR>
>> 1/2AV vs KEAP rounds (even though they are what ESAs are supposed to be<BR>
>> working against).<BR>
><BR>
>I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I<BR>
don't<BR>
>have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
><BR>
>From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
<BR>
What GTL would this be? Does it not exist in GT? It would seem to be an<BR>
absolutely mandatory device for BD troops and even just normal infantry.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:52:41 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
> Note I didn't specify HOW MUCH I was willing to pay... or which<BR>
> currency.:-)<BR>
><BR>
> Seriously, does anyone know which issue of High Passage featured<BR>
> an article on governments by Marc Miller? If anyone would like to sell<BR>
> me *the issue* I would be willing to pay handsomely for it. (Or you can<BR>
> exchange it for High Passage #3, of which i have a copy.)<BR>
<BR>
That three-page article is in issue number 5, the final issue FASA<BR>
published.  That issue is about the easiest one to find on the market.  The<BR>
article is not exceptional, but it does give the examples, as mentioned.<BR>
Things like the Democratic Party in Chicago being a Charismatic Oligarchy<BR>
and an oil derrick being a Company/Corporation ruled world :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:03:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: RE: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
And from farther south, Hello from San Diego!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:19:58 -0500<BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: OT: Seeking Matador Novels<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, All,<BR>
<BR>
While I could attempt to relate this to Traveller, as many of you are<BR>
already familiar with the novels in question, I've decided to leave that to<BR>
more capable hands.<BR>
<BR>
I am looking for books from the Matador series, by Steven Perry. They are<BR>
wonderful reading, but have gone out-of-print, and since then, my copies<BR>
have been disappeared. I've found the first one, "The Man Who Never Missed,"<BR>
but would love to get the others for my personal library. These titles<BR>
include:<BR>
<BR>
"Matadora"<BR>
"The Machiavelli Interface"<BR>
"The 97th Step"<BR>
"The Albino Knife"<BR>
"Dark Steel"<BR>
"Brother Death"<BR>
<BR>
If someone out there can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks in<BR>
advance for your time and assistance in these matters. If you wish, you can<BR>
respond to me offlist, to preserve the list traffic for items more Traveller<BR>
related.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:17:04 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Brian Jenkins wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> And from farther south, Hello from San Diego!<BR>
<BR>
And from farther north, hello from Calgary, Alberta, Canada!<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:27:20 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:07 AM 5/12/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items<BR>
>if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
<BR>
I dunno if how much it will draw up the price, but I will often base my bid <BR>
heavily on the picture.  If nothing else, if you are new to eBay, and your <BR>
feedback rating is low, the picture is some evidence that you actually have <BR>
the item, thus encouraging the more paranoid people to bid.  A friend of <BR>
mine even scanned in his palmpilot, as proof that he has one.<BR>
<BR>
>Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
>you recommend it?<BR>
<BR>
Definitely!!!!  Not only will it speed up turnaround time for both you and <BR>
the bidder, many people, including myself, will avoid items that don't <BR>
accept PayPal altogether (unless they are _really_ interesting).<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:39:50 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Weird requests....<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Evyn MacDude" <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
> > Ok... Couple of little bits... Another cut of hydrogen static and the odd<BR>
> > pulsar.<BR>
> > Bit by bit I'm building up to a point where I can start mixing.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I got some Whale song mixed with some New Age Muzak For ambient fill.<BR>
><BR>
> I have the URL to a page with Foghorn Leghorn .wav files, would that help?<BR>
<BR>
Oddly, yes.....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:35:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
John Snead wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I don't find this concept terribly interesting or believable.  The key<BR>
>seems to be when confronted with the phrase feudal technocracy<BR>
>most folks focus of the feudal and only incidentally tack on the<BR>
>technocracy part.<BR>
<BR>
No, the key is that we don't merely have a two word description to go on<BR>
with respect to feudal technocracy. We also happen to have the longest<BR>
description of a government type in the text right there in front of us. It<BR>
is sketchy, but it is longer than the others.<BR>
<BR>
"Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled.<BR>
Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are<BR>
mutually beneficial."<BR>
<BR>
Replace the bit about "technical activities" with something less specific<BR>
and you have a relatively accurate, if rather short, description of<BR>
feudalism. So you're right in saying that folks tend to start with the<BR>
notion of feudalism and then add on "technocratic" elements. That seems<BR>
reasonable, at least to me.<BR>
<BR>
>The idea that a FT is going to look anything like<BR>
>medieval Europe or premodern Japan honestly seems rather silly to<BR>
>me.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that anybody's saying that it will "look" exactly like<BR>
medieval Europe or Japan, just that the notion of interlocking duties and<BR>
responsibilities will be there.<BR>
<BR>
>Concepts based out of the 1930 technocracy movement,<BR>
>where the engineer/leaders have become a separate caste with<BR>
>difficult entrance exams which once passed grant the new<BR>
>technocrat all manner of rights and responsibilities seems much<BR>
>more fun, interesting, and reasonable.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm not going to quarrel with "fun". I've run FTs my way in my<BR>
campaigns, and my players seemed to enjoy themselves. I've also run<BR>
governments like the one you've just described, which I would classify as a<BR>
civil service bureaucracy (or possibly oligarchy) myself, and those sessions<BR>
also seemed to be fun. I think that "interesting" depends on how much effort<BR>
the GM is willing to put in to the specific world. As to whether or not<BR>
using the Technocracy movement as a base is "much more reasonable", I simply<BR>
can't agree. Feudalism has actually existed. Not only did feudalism exist,<BR>
but it thrived for centuries. The Technocracy movement, on the other hand,<BR>
turned some heads in the depression-era United States. It became relatively<BR>
popular, but it was never really a massive force, and its popularity dropped<BR>
off sharply throughout the 30s as the economic situation in America<BR>
bettered. It was never actually put in to practice.<BR>
<BR>
So, is feudalism or the Technocracy movement more reasonable? I'd have to<BR>
come down on the feudalism side myself.<BR>
<BR>
>The idea that someone here had about a FT being an alternative<BR>
>politico-economic to markets is great.  From what I remember<BR>
>about the 30s technocrats were basically talking some form of<BR>
>planned economy which is based upon increasing productivity and<BR>
>return to the citizens rather than ideology.<BR>
<BR>
The basic idea was that human toil of all sorts would be more or less<BR>
gradually eliminated by automation, and that the resulting goods would be<BR>
distributed to everybody. In return, everybody would pitch in and help with<BR>
tasks which could not be automated. In a very crude sense this is similar to<BR>
communist thinking, but there are certain differences. Still, claiming a<BR>
lack of ideology is an ideology in and of itself, but more importantly the<BR>
Technocracy is far from free of an ideological component.<BR>
<BR>
>Given that there are a number of moderate to high population FTs (like<BR>
Darrian)<BR>
>further exploration of this type of government would a really nifty.  Then<BR>
>again I'm very much a fan of almost any alternative to market<BR>
>capitalism :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:46:08 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: Other non-Brittish non-Californian list members<BR>
<BR>
Do mine eyes decieve me?  Is there another Utahn on this list?  I had<BR>
thought myself the only one.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: TOCoons@cs.com [mailto:TOCoons@cs.com]<BR>
<BR>
Last year the Utah National Guard decided my Spanish skills weren't good <BR>
enough for them to hire me as a civilian translator, but since nobody's<BR>
life, <BR>
liberty or property is at stake here, I'll give it a try.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2419<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 12 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2420<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: IW material<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Other non-Brittish non-Californian list members<BR>
Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
re: T4 Combat System?<BR>
re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
RE: Newbie wants to know<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
RE: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:48:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
Check out my eBay page for thoughts on bidding and auctioning.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mp5sd5/<BR>
<BR>
I'm not the "greatest" auctioneer, but I've had VERY good results with what<BR>
I have stated on my page. Stick to your maximum bid and see where it goes...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 8:27 AM<BR>
Subject: OT: eBay thoughts (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:07 AM 5/12/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> >How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items<BR>
> >if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
><BR>
> I dunno if how much it will draw up the price, but I will often base my<BR>
bid<BR>
> heavily on the picture.  If nothing else, if you are new to eBay, and your<BR>
> feedback rating is low, the picture is some evidence that you actually<BR>
have<BR>
> the item, thus encouraging the more paranoid people to bid.  A friend of<BR>
> mine even scanned in his palmpilot, as proof that he has one.<BR>
><BR>
> >Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
> >you recommend it?<BR>
><BR>
> Definitely!!!!  Not only will it speed up turnaround time for both you and<BR>
> the bidder, many people, including myself, will avoid items that don't<BR>
> accept PayPal altogether (unless they are _really_ interesting).<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                                -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:49:20 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
I've put a little time into a CGI-like simulation of the <BR>
Spinward Marches.  If you would, please check it out and<BR>
send me your feedback.<BR>
<BR>
Currently, all you can do is log in.  You have to designate<BR>
a starship for your character -- you can't choose "no ship".<BR>
Your player character has no real stats to speak of.  And<BR>
finally, you can't leave Regina.  For that matter, you can't<BR>
do anything ON Regina.<BR>
<BR>
However, you can do one thing: if you log on as "admin",<BR>
you get a database dump showing all the people, ships, and<BR>
worlds in the database.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yes, here's the URL:<BR>
<BR>
http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
downport@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:<BR>
> My take on the dread Type 5 govt is fairly simple. Its a government where <BR>
> those technically competant in a particular field are responsible for <BR>
> governing that field.<BR>
> <BR>
> For example, roading and transport would be the responsibility of someone <BR>
> with demonstrable competance in roading and transport; law and order <BR>
> would fall under those with skills in that area etc. I think the best<BR>
> example  of it would be some municipal governments.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...government by the competent would be a very unusual and implausible type<BR>
of government.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino writes:<BR>
<BR>
> What GTL would this be? Does it not exist in GT? It would seem to be an<BR>
> absolutely mandatory device for BD troops and even just normal infantry.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't exist as such in GT, and there's no obvious reason for troops to<BR>
have it -- it's rather heavy and power-intensive.  Just layer on more armor.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:39:17 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Jesse's (superb) Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:48 PM 5/11/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >and a graphics tablet,<BR>
> >which REALLY helps a LOT. Wacom makes quite a decent USB Mac/PC one for<BR>
> >$99, too, a good deal.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok, I gotta ask:  what do you do with it?  I've never used one, and at this<BR>
> point wouldn't know what to do with it... Not that I can do 3D anyway, but<BR>
> I keep trying....<BR>
<BR>
A pad lets you draw or paint like you're using a pen or brush. Someone<BR>
once described using a mouse in a graphics program as 'like drawing with<BR>
a bar of soap'. If you're bad at sketching as it is, hobbling yourself<BR>
with a bar of soap is no great help.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:38:29 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
Of course eBay is a wonderful way to sell your books.  Pictures are a must if you want a good price.  It reassures the buyer of both the sellers possesion of the product and the quality of the product.  Single book sales will net you more money overall.  You should space out the duplicate book sales, or do a dutch auction with those instead.  <BR>
Both Paypal and Billpoint are good options.  <BR>
And yes, in case you are wondering, I do work at eBay, so I do have the ulterior motive of wanting to support my paycheck.  Good luck!<BR>
<BR>
Tim Dougherty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:48:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: IW material<BR>
<BR>
At 12:31 AM 5/12/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Interesting tidbit from tonight's Brubek's chat.  Seems LKW is thinking<BR>
>about doing books in other periods of Traveller history.  He plans on<BR>
>opening the subject with Marc Miller in a year or so if the relationship<BR>
>between SJG and FarFuture remains good.  The implications should be<BR>
>obvious :-).<BR>
<BR>
Dibs on the Civil War/Arbellatra Regency!!!!  (scribble, scribble)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:40:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
Hi Peter,<BR>
<BR>
I haven't *sold* any of my duplicate Traveller stuff yet<BR>
though I'm considering it and have been trying to formalize<BR>
some opinions on just these questions.<BR>
Personally I wouldn't post the list to TML, partly because<BR>
I've only been a lurker for the past six years or so and partly<BR>
it seems out of place.  I'd definitely use rec.games.frp.marketplace<BR>
at least as a pointer to eBay auctions.  And I'd choose eBay over<BR>
Yahoo or Amazon as it just seems more popular.<BR>
<BR>
I think scanned pictures definitely help, but not as much on<BR>
items that I know what they look like (Book 7 for instance).<BR>
As a seller I'd try to put some in if I can figure out how<BR>
to do it (but it can't be that hard).  If the items have just<BR>
regular shelfwear or moderate use-wear I'll accept the description<BR>
of it, as a buyer.  As a seller I'd probably put the pictures up<BR>
just in case someone isn't as accepting as I would be.<BR>
<BR>
I can't accept credit cards, but I sure appreciated the people<BR>
who could (that were businesses already), but was OK with <BR>
getting/sending money orders.  But since I just signed up with<BR>
PayPal to buy the Classic Books reprint, I'd probably use it.<BR>
The convenience factor should draw more serious eyeballs.<BR>
<BR>
I think selling multiple copies at the same time would lower<BR>
the bids - unless it's a really hot item (DGP Solomani&Aslan<BR>
or Atlas of the Imperium, that kind of thing) then there may<BR>
be enough people bidding to get similarly high top bids.<BR>
But in general I'd stagger them - and I'd wait until there<BR>
weren't many Traveller items up for auction.  I think I just<BR>
saw a TON of items up for this coming week.  How many people<BR>
are going to have money to spend on all those items at once?<BR>
It may take longer, but I'd let the buyers have some breathing<BR>
time to build up more money (heck I know *I* need the time).<BR>
And I'd try to make the auctions end at a reasonable hour<BR>
early or late evening (early: after dinner but before kids<BR>
go to bed, late: after the kids and wife are in bed :)  <BR>
Probably based on central time or stagger some EST some PST.<BR>
And more on weekends (in which case during the day might<BR>
work too).<BR>
<BR>
Well, just my thoughts after watching and buying Traveller<BR>
stuff on eBay for the last six+ months.  Let me (or the List)<BR>
know what the others are saying, I'd be interested to know<BR>
the survey results. :)<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
> For those of you who sell your Traveller stuff:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've got a lot of duplicate Traveller stuff I am considering<BR>
> selling (no list yet) and I was wondering what method is<BR>
> likely to get me the most money? (Even if it's a bit more<BR>
> trouble to do.) <BR>
> <BR>
> I was thinking of selling them on Ebay and posting (once<BR>
> only) a list to the TML and to rec.games.frp.marketplace.<BR>
> <BR>
> How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items <BR>
> if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
> <BR>
> Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
> you recommend it?<BR>
> <BR>
> Is selling multiple copies of the same item at the same<BR>
> time likely to result in lower prices? (Obviously basic<BR>
> economic theory says it should).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:56:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:<BR>
> On 11 May 00, at 9:18, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just a<BR>
> > conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being based on<BR>
> > control of land, its based on control of available technology.  That's a<BR>
> > relatively believable form of government to pop up regularly,<BR>
> > particularly on worlds that are somewhat hostile to life.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd say thats more a Type 3, Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy or Type C, <BR>
> Charismatic Oligarchy (depending on how popular the rulers are).<BR>
<BR>
Or a bureaucracy (8/9).  So?  Many government types resemble one another.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:16:12 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity, can you set it up so that the ship entry has the owners name with it?<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:10:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Zembar" <zembar@swipnet.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Hello, I'm quite new here, and maybe posting regarding this rather controversial<BR>
question isn't the best way to start off, but here goes...<BR>
<BR>
I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the promo<BR>
leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those who had<BR>
access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a small TL-4 planet<BR>
might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with a handful of PGMP:s<BR>
(with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one with two or three air/rafts.<BR>
<BR>
When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I instantly<BR>
thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism referring to the use of<BR>
a warrior class, and nations built upon the prospect of protecting their<BR>
territories from the other territories' warriors. It would simply be ruled by<BR>
those with access to the superior technology. Therefore it could be called a<BR>
technocracy.<BR>
Feudal + Technocracy = Feudal Technocracy (wohoo)<BR>
<BR>
Anything wrong with this?<BR>
<BR>
(I'm a newbie, so please don't flame me *too* much ;-) )<BR>
<BR>
/Zembar<BR>
<BR>
"Stop the vegetarians, they eat all the animals' food!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:27:27 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Other non-Brittish non-Californian list members<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do mine eyes decieve me?  Is there another Utahn on this list?  I had<BR>
> thought myself the only one.<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: TOCoons@cs.com [mailto:TOCoons@cs.com]<BR>
><BR>
> Last year the Utah National Guard decided my Spanish skills weren't good<BR>
> enough for them to hire me as a civilian translator, but since nobody's<BR>
> life,<BR>
> liberty or property is at stake here, I'll give it a try.<BR>
<BR>
Until last year there were 2 of us in nevada....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:44:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
At 4:06 -0400 12/5/00, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> Even the Traveller<BR>
>Elders (ie: Loren, Marc, Jon, Jesse, and a plethora of other contributers to<BR>
>the Taveller Universe.) query the list for information, suggestions, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Note to Grandfather;<BR>
  the secret promotion to Rank of Elder God of Jesse and Jon has been <BR>
revealed. Should we formally allow them to add 'TML Great Old One' to <BR>
their signatures like Doug Berry?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BIT's<BR>
>put's out another series that is easy to splice into any rule-set, so we're<BR>
>grabbing up those as funds allow.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/ if you're interested.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:35:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: T4 Combat System?<BR>
<BR>
At 20:37 -0400 11/5/00, Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> wrote:<BR>
>I think you're referring to personal/ground combat?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
>  Is it really<BR>
>that different from CT?  I don't remember tables in CT...<BR>
<BR>
Massively - task driven. Armour is separate from roll to hit.<BR>
<BR>
>ah, THOSE tables.  Well, it seems we never used them.  Therefore,<BR>
>I guess I'll agree with you!<BR>
<BR>
;-) You just rolled 8+?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:30:13 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
At 20:37 -0400 11/5/00, "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com> wrote:<BR>
>1)  Does anyone know of any fixes/updates etc to Battle Rider.<BR>
<BR>
Merrick Burkhardt(?) (who used to be on TML) used to have some stuff <BR>
on his website. However, I deleted the URL; it may be off the webring <BR>
though. Or he could be a lurker...<BR>
<BR>
>2)  Is there any errata for the Regency Sourcebook.<BR>
<BR>
Yes - apparently, you should delete all references to an AI Virus, <BR>
and also replace HePLAR with thruster plates ;-)  <weg><BR>
<BR>
>1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
>tell I run TNE)<BR>
<BR>
Central Supply Catalog<BR>
Milieu 0 Campaign (background)<BR>
Psionic Institutes (Psionic rules)<BR>
Aliens Archive (Alien races)<BR>
Pocket Empires - expansion rules.<BR>
Naval Architects manual - Deckplans.<BR>
<BR>
>2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
Far Trader (for classic Traveller style merchant adventures)<BR>
Behind the Claw - for Marches based adventures - nutshell description <BR>
of every world in marches.<BR>
Starports (looks good so far, but I'm still reading - links to Far Trader)<BR>
Alien books are okay (but CT/MT ones also do)<BR>
<BR>
You may guess many of my campaigns are mercantile..<BR>
<BR>
>3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most useful<BR>
>GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
<BR>
Space 3rd edition (general space stuff)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Finally an offer, If anyone is after any Traveller stuff they may have Email<BR>
>me privately and I will arrange to check on it for you.  I'll be going on<BR>
>Monday 15th so email me before then and I will get back to you with<BR>
>availabilities and prices then.  Unfortunately if I want it you had better<BR>
>stand in line.<BR>
<BR>
Which shop is it? I assume it's in the UK?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:32:50 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
At 20:37 -0400 11/5/00, Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net> wrote:<BR>
>1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
>tell I run TNE)<BR>
>If your talking other versions of Traveller, I would say the Regency<BR>
>Sourcebook and Aliens of the Rim probably top my list.  If you mean other<BR>
>RPGs than Traveller, I would say Fusion, Fire, and Steel is probably the<BR>
>most interesting, with the World Tamer's Handbook coming in close.<BR>
<BR>
They're TNE not T4.<BR>
<BR>
>2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
>Probably Free Trader,<BR>
<BR>
Far Trader<BR>
<BR>
> with all those great commerce rules.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>GURPS Uplift has an excellent alien-generation system in it that can <BR>
>be used for other systems.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, if you come across this let me know how much ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:59:30 -0600<BR>
From: Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, they are TNE.  Oops.  Got to read the question better next time.<BR>
<BR>
As for T4 stuff useful in general - Fusion, Fire and Steel 2 (with errate),<BR>
the Alien's Archive, and Pocket Empires are my favorites.  Central Supply<BR>
Catalogue can be useful too.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SD Mooney [mailto:dom@cybergoths.u-net.com]<BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 10:33 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 20:37 -0400 11/5/00, Jason Postma <JasonP@i-link.net> wrote:<BR>
>1)  What T4 stuff is of most general value for other systems (As you can<BR>
>tell I run TNE)<BR>
>If your talking other versions of Traveller, I would say the Regency<BR>
>Sourcebook and Aliens of the Rim probably top my list.  If you mean other<BR>
>RPGs than Traveller, I would say Fusion, Fire, and Steel is probably the<BR>
>most interesting, with the World Tamer's Handbook coming in close.<BR>
<BR>
They're TNE not T4.<BR>
<BR>
>2)  What GURPS Traveller is most useful if not running GURPS.<BR>
>Probably Free Trader,<BR>
<BR>
Far Trader<BR>
<BR>
> with all those great commerce rules.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>GURPS Uplift has an excellent alien-generation system in it that can <BR>
>be used for other systems.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, if you come across this let me know how much ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:11:22 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Updates to Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Ooopppss<BR>
<BR>
Ok a clarification, I am requesting info on which T4 and GURPS books would<BR>
be most useful to me in running a TNE campaign.  They are not for any<BR>
specific campaign type, I am just after useful books to mine for ideas,<BR>
equipment, settings etc.  (My players tend to be generalists who will engage<BR>
in some trading between surveys, uplift work and the occasional smash and<BR>
grab when necessary; this is partly due to their preferences and the fact<BR>
that the RCES IMTU do not have sufficient specialists)<BR>
<BR>
I said<BR>
>> 3)  Other than the Traveller specific GURPS books which are the most<BR>
useful<BR>
>> GURPS books (other than the basic manual)<BR>
Anthony Jackson replied<BR>
>For what?<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for all the people who  have answered both privately and on list.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:02:18 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
You noticed that too?  Very flattering, though hardly the case for me in my<BR>
opinion!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:44 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Newbie wants to know<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 4:06 -0400 12/5/00, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella"<BR>
> <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Even the Traveller<BR>
> >Elders (ie: Loren, Marc, Jon, Jesse, and a plethora of other<BR>
> contributers to<BR>
> >the Taveller Universe.) query the list for information, suggestions, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Note to Grandfather;<BR>
>   the secret promotion to Rank of Elder God of Jesse and Jon has been<BR>
> revealed. Should we formally allow them to add 'TML Great Old One' to<BR>
> their signatures like Doug Berry?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > BIT's<BR>
> >put's out another series that is easy to splice into any<BR>
> rule-set, so we're<BR>
> >grabbing up those as funds allow.<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.bits.org.uk/ if you're interested.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:46:21 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
Ummm...I saw some text..but no CGI.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Rob Eaglestone" <downport@home.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 1:49 PM<BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hello all,<BR>
> <BR>
> I've put a little time into a CGI-like simulation of the <BR>
> Spinward Marches.  If you would, please check it out and<BR>
> send me your feedback.<BR>
> <BR>
> Currently, all you can do is log in.  You have to designate<BR>
> a starship for your character -- you can't choose "no ship".<BR>
> Your player character has no real stats to speak of.  And<BR>
> finally, you can't leave Regina.  For that matter, you can't<BR>
> do anything ON Regina.<BR>
> <BR>
> However, you can do one thing: if you log on as "admin",<BR>
> you get a database dump showing all the people, ships, and<BR>
> worlds in the database.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yes, here's the URL:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> downport@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:46:56 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
Please send me details on PayPal<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:27 AM<BR>
Subject: OT: eBay thoughts (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:07 AM 5/12/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> >How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items<BR>
> >if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
><BR>
> I dunno if how much it will draw up the price, but I will often base my<BR>
bid<BR>
> heavily on the picture.  If nothing else, if you are new to eBay, and your<BR>
> feedback rating is low, the picture is some evidence that you actually<BR>
have<BR>
> the item, thus encouraging the more paranoid people to bid.  A friend of<BR>
> mine even scanned in his palmpilot, as proof that he has one.<BR>
><BR>
> >Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
> >you recommend it?<BR>
><BR>
> Definitely!!!!  Not only will it speed up turnaround time for both you and<BR>
> the bidder, many people, including myself, will avoid items that don't<BR>
> accept PayPal altogether (unless they are _really_ interesting).<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                                -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:56:34 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Newbie wants to know<BR>
<BR>
Well, you have the elder part right....  Wait, can you replace that with ancient, mayhaps decrepit.......<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2420<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2421</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 12 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2421<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: House Mechanics<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:06:03 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Gotta be worried about a higher power at work huh?<BR>
><BR>
> M<BR>
<BR>
Heavens no.  I work from home. And I am unsupervised.<BR>
Unless you count Stupid the Cat.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:18:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hi guys,<BR>
<BR>
> No, the key is that we don't merely have a two word description to go on<BR>
> with respect to feudal technocracy. We also happen to have the longest<BR>
> description of a government type in the text right there in front of us. It<BR>
> is sketchy, but it is longer than the others.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled.<BR>
> Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are<BR>
> mutually beneficial."<BR>
> <BR>
> Replace the bit about "technical activities" with something less specific<BR>
> and you have a relatively accurate, if rather short, description of<BR>
> feudalism. So you're right in saying that folks tend to start with the<BR>
> notion of feudalism and then add on "technocratic" elements. That seems<BR>
> reasonable, at least to me.<BR>
<BR>
Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description), and their<BR>
power came from land rather than technical expertise. This doesn't mean<BR>
that an FT can't have medieval trappings, of course.<BR>
<BR>
> >Concepts based out of the 1930 technocracy movement,<BR>
> >where the engineer/leaders have become a separate caste with<BR>
> >difficult entrance exams which once passed grant the new<BR>
> >technocrat all manner of rights and responsibilities seems much<BR>
> >more fun, interesting, and reasonable.<BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> As to whether or not using the Technocracy movement as a base is<BR>
> "much more reasonable", I simply<BR>
> can't agree. Feudalism has actually existed. Not only did feudalism exist,<BR>
> but it thrived for centuries. The Technocracy movement, on the other hand,<BR>
> turned some heads in the depression-era United States. It became relatively<BR>
> popular, but it was never really a massive force, and its popularity dropped<BR>
> off sharply throughout the 30s as the economic situation in America<BR>
> bettered. It was never actually put in to practice.<BR>
<BR>
Since I'm the guy who introduced the Technocracy movement into the<BR>
discussion, I should say that I certainly don't believe that the Technocracy <BR>
movement would have any influence over Imperial society, or that<BR>
any of the FTs in the Imperium would be consciously aware of<BR>
Technocratic ideology. I simply suggested that the Imperium's FTs<BR>
may *resemble* the Technocratic blueprint in a very broad way.<BR>
<BR>
> >The idea that someone here had about a FT being an alternative<BR>
> >politico-economic to markets is great.  From what I remember<BR>
> >about the 30s technocrats were basically talking some form of<BR>
> >planned economy which is based upon increasing productivity and<BR>
> >return to the citizens rather than ideology.<BR>
> <BR>
> The basic idea was that human toil of all sorts would be more or less<BR>
> gradually eliminated by automation, and that the resulting goods would be<BR>
> distributed to everybody. In return, everybody would pitch in and help with<BR>
> tasks which could not be automated. In a very crude sense this is similar to<BR>
> communist thinking, but there are certain differences. Still, claiming a<BR>
> lack of ideology is an ideology in and of itself, but more importantly the<BR>
> Technocracy is far from free of an ideological component.<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely true. The Technocrats *claimed* that their regime would be<BR>
free from ideology, though, so Phil's remark makes sense in context.<BR>
(Those of you who are interested in this somewhat loopy movement,<BR>
by the way, can check out the Technocracy homepage at <BR>
http://www.technocracy.org/.)<BR>
<BR>
Everyone should realize that we probably will never have a single<BR>
definition of "Feudal Technocracy." A VERY kind soul (thank you again!)<BR>
sent me the text for Marc Miller's government article in High Passage #5.<BR>
Here were his examples of "feudal technocracies":<BR>
<BR>
Examples: Japan (in that companies tend<BR>
to hire employees for life, and strong loyalties are formed), and the United<BR>
States (in that some populations have strong party loyalty in return for<BR>
local assistnace by the party in the form of jobs and hand-outs).<BR>
<BR>
His examples suggest that *all* of us may have been a bit off-base. In any<BR>
event, though, he suggested that there was no reason to be dogmatic<BR>
about these questions:<BR>
<BR>
Another reason for the labels that are provided in the government<BR>
classification system is as an aid to imagination. The unaided imagination<BR>
of even the most inventive referee can go dry after generating a few simple<BR>
worlds. Using die rolls to create the individual factors for planets jogs<BR>
the imagination, forcing the referee to think of rationales for the<BR>
combinations that occur. The use of too familiar terms (such as monarchy)<BR>
can stifle imag- ination by allowing the referee to settle into old lines of<BR>
thought.<BR>
<BR>
In other words, MWM was *deliberately* obscure; he didn't *want*<BR>
us to have a clear idea about different forms of government. So <BR>
there probably isn't any true right-or-wrong answer.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:38:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Hi, Zembar, and welcome to the list (I'm a bit of newbie<BR>
myself). I don't think your view of FTs is particularly flameworthy. :-)<BR>
I would put more emphasis on technical *expertise* rather than<BR>
ownership of technology per se, and I would consider your<BR>
feudal regime more of a "self-perpetuating oligarchy." But if<BR>
the feudal caste also kept *knowledge* of technology to itself<BR>
than it might very well come close to an FT...<BR>
<BR>
By the way, I recently picked up a copy of White Dwarf #48,<BR>
in which Phil Masters suggested some rare alternatives to<BR>
the standard Traveller government types. Of particular interest<BR>
was the "Technological Theocracy," in which rulers use<BR>
advanced technology in order to "awe and cow" the low-tech<BR>
masses, possibly pretending to be gods themselves. Listed<BR>
examples from literature included Leiber's "Gather, Darkness!"<BR>
and Zelazny's _Lord of Light_ and _Creatures of Light and<BR>
Darkness_. An interesting article...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Zembar <zembar@swipnet.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 1:10 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hello, I'm quite new here, and maybe posting regarding this rather<BR>
controversial<BR>
> question isn't the best way to start off, but here goes...<BR>
><BR>
> I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the promo<BR>
> leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those who had<BR>
> access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a small TL-4<BR>
planet<BR>
> might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with a handful of PGMP:s<BR>
> (with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one with two or three<BR>
air/rafts.<BR>
><BR>
> When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I instantly<BR>
> thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism referring to the use<BR>
of<BR>
> a warrior class, and nations built upon the prospect of protecting their<BR>
> territories from the other territories' warriors. It would simply be ruled by<BR>
> those with access to the superior technology. Therefore it could be called a<BR>
> technocracy.<BR>
> Feudal + Technocracy = Feudal Technocracy (wohoo)<BR>
><BR>
> Anything wrong with this?<BR>
><BR>
> (I'm a newbie, so please don't flame me *too* much ;-) )<BR>
><BR>
> /Zembar<BR>
><BR>
> "Stop the vegetarians, they eat all the animals' food!"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:38:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/12/00 9:44 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Note to Grandfather;<BR>
> the secret promotion to Rank of Elder God of Jesse and Jon has been<BR>
> revealed. Should we formally allow them to add 'TML Great Old One' to<BR>
> their signatures like Doug Berry?<BR>
<BR>
I didn't say Elder /God/, but I do think Jesse's work (When I think "Far<BR>
Trader", I see his renderings) is /godhead/, and Jon is definitely a major<BR>
contributer. I think there is a distinction to be made between TML Old One<BR>
and Traveller Elder. A few get to have both titles I guess, like Doug and<BR>
yourself. Jesse has been on the TML longer than I, perhaps he qualifies as<BR>
well for both. I am of course not qualified as anything but Acolyte if I am<BR>
lucky. I am running a TML debt, having received more than I have given. Just<BR>
don't put me in the brig, ok?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:42:54 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Zembar wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hello, I'm quite new here, and maybe posting regarding this rather controversial<BR>
> question isn't the best way to start off, but here goes...<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the promo<BR>
> leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those who had<BR>
> access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a small TL-4 planet<BR>
> might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with a handful of PGMP:s<BR>
> (with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one with two or three air/rafts.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, the good ol' TED's "Technologically Elevated Dictators". They're<BR>
more straight dictatorships or oligarchy. In this case, the technology<BR>
they control is merely a means to the end of control, not the basis of<BR>
their control. They control things by being badder and nastier than<BR>
their rivals. They cheat by having the bigger guns.<BR>
<BR>
On worlds where you need life support to exist, this might come close to<BR>
a FT.<BR>
<BR>
> When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I instantly<BR>
> thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism referring to the use of<BR>
> a warrior class, and nations built upon the prospect of protecting their<BR>
> territories from the other territories' warriors. It would simply be ruled by<BR>
> those with access to the superior technology. Therefore it could be called a<BR>
> technocracy.<BR>
> Feudal + Technocracy = Feudal Technocracy (wohoo)<BR>
<BR>
Tossing my 0.02cr in these this discussion, I've always seen FT as<BR>
'Control of the production of technology' more than control of the<BR>
technology itself. <BR>
<BR>
In my view a Feudal Technocracy is more like a gibsonian Corporate world<BR>
gone all stratified and hereditary-like. (See Neal Stephenson's 'The<BR>
Diamond Age' for a good version of this, even if he doesn't call it a<BR>
feudal system, it is)<BR>
<BR>
The CEO's, and upper management become the nobles, the big zaibatsu are<BR>
the major states, the subsidiary and supply firms are the minor feudal<BR>
vassals. <BR>
<BR>
BOD memberships are shopped about like marriages are in Feudal systems,<BR>
as binding relationships between states. Contracts with suppliers become<BR>
pledges of fealty, and the workers are bound to their company for life.<BR>
(and they wear the company uniforms, and sing the Company songs, and<BR>
live in the Company towns, and..and..and..)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...sounds a lot like the Ziru Siirka, don't it...;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:49:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/12/00 11:46 AM, j-man@iname.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Ummm...I saw some text..but no CGI.<BR>
<BR>
I'm getting nothing, "just waiting for reply", but I am curious what is<BR>
being planned with this project.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:48:30 +0100<BR>
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
The issue of High Passage is number Five!<BR>
<BR>
> > In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
> > an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
> > examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   <BR>
> <BR>
> Oohhh, could you tell me the issue number? Please? (I will try to<BR>
> track it down on eBay or wherever.)<BR>
<BR>
Duh, I'm sorry, you just said you *didn't know* the issue number.<BR>
My brain is definitely not working today...<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone _else_ know the issue? Would anyone be willing<BR>
to sell it to me directly?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:58:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line log-in test<BR>
<BR>
> I'm getting nothing, "just waiting for reply", but I am curious what is<BR>
> being planned with this project.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
And now I have finally actually been refused by the server. Took a while<BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:49:42 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Personally I would like to see more adventures, though an expansion of ACQ<BR>
to include Aliens and Vehicles in more detail would be my first choice.  I<BR>
could see that Doug at least will be busy with his other writing at the<BR>
moment that may be an idea for the medium term.<BR>
<BR>
2nd Choice: A 101 civilian vehicles would be nice, everything from the high<BR>
TL Rolls-Royces to minis and some heavy construction vehicles and large<BR>
trucks would be nice.  Don't know how well they would sell but IMHO it would<BR>
fill a huge gap in the equipment lists.<BR>
<BR>
rd Choice :  101 locations, mucho useful. Sorry can't remember who<BR>
suggested this.<BR>
<BR>
I like the idea of a History book of some sort, though this could become an<BR>
interesting Canon problem.<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
> tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
and  Jens Rydholm wrote<BR>
>101 history lessons<BR>
>Written as lecture notes/handouts from Regina university. Each one<BR>
describing a<BR>
>single important event or time period.<BR>
>Hey, if small comments (like "Booooooring" and "Tonight is the grav-ball<BR>
>finals") were added, the book might make a great flavour text for<BR>
university<BR>
>life as well.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like Shadowrun etc, however I can live with that.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:52:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> "Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled.<BR>
>> Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which<BR>
are<BR>
>> mutually beneficial."<BR>
>><BR>
>> Replace the bit about "technical activities" with something less specific<BR>
>> and you have a relatively accurate, if rather short, description of<BR>
>> feudalism. So you're right in saying that folks tend to start with the<BR>
>> notion of feudalism and then add on "technocratic" elements. That seems<BR>
>> reasonable, at least to me.<BR>
><BR>
>Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
>the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description), and their<BR>
>power came from land rather than technical expertise. This doesn't mean<BR>
>that an FT can't have medieval trappings, of course.<BR>
<BR>
I only see the problem as "one-fold", and even then, it's not much of a<BR>
problem. First, though, I have to clear up an issue: I don't think that<BR>
feudalism means "medieval trappings". That's not really what I'm getting at.<BR>
What I am getting at is the more or less vertical system of duties and<BR>
responsibilities which seems to characterize feudal systems, and which makes<BR>
them "unique". It's not a matter of slapping "Baron" on a technician, it's<BR>
getting the feel right.<BR>
<BR>
So, back to the "one-fold" problem. I see it as one-fold because the<BR>
"theory" of feudalism allows for consent by the governed. I don't believe<BR>
that this is how it was always practiced, but I do believe that this is how<BR>
it was thought to work, at least in the west. I'm not inflexible on the<BR>
concept of "consent", however. Under my model it should be pointed out that<BR>
people tend to enjoy breathing, as well as heat, food, and so on. Consent<BR>
comes when one realizes that their life is in someone else's hands, just as<BR>
consent in medieval Europe came when it was realized that wandering around<BR>
in the wilderness in a volatile age wasn't conducive to health. Why do you<BR>
think that hunting, for the peasantry, was a crime in medieval England?<BR>
<BR>
So now, we're left with the issue of feudalism being based on land<BR>
ownership. I believe this to be only partially true, as the Roman historian<BR>
Tacitus described a proto-feudal system of personal loyalty among the<BR>
*semi-nomadic* Germanic tribes he had come in contact with. I suspect that<BR>
the concept of personal loyalty in the feudal obligation system is pretty<BR>
much an outgrowth of the kinship and friendship bonds which have appeared,<BR>
or appear, in many real world societies. At any rate, this notion of<BR>
personal loyalty, when combined with the post-Diocletian Roman practice of<BR>
bonding farmers to their land and tradesman to their trades was the basis<BR>
for feudalism in Western Christendom. That's a little bit of speculation,<BR>
but I think that it's a reasonable speculation.<BR>
<BR>
To boil it back down, I don't think that feudalism was ever based purely on<BR>
"land". It was based on other things as well, such as defense. Indeed, one<BR>
standard understanding of the development of feudalism, which still has some<BR>
popularity among scholars although many disagree with it, is that the<BR>
development of the "stirrup" allowed feudalism to thrive, as it allowed the<BR>
development of heavy cavalry. I don't necessarily agree with that particular<BR>
theory, but it does pop-up frequently.<BR>
<BR>
>Since I'm the guy who introduced the Technocracy movement into the<BR>
>discussion, I should say that I certainly don't believe that the<BR>
Technocracy<BR>
>movement would have any influence over Imperial society, or that<BR>
>any of the FTs in the Imperium would be consciously aware of<BR>
>Technocratic ideology. I simply suggested that the Imperium's FTs<BR>
>may *resemble* the Technocratic blueprint in a very broad way.<BR>
<BR>
I was specifically answering a comment, in which the poster had said that<BR>
snagging ideas from the Technocracy made more sense than using a feudal<BR>
system of obligations as a base. I disagreed. That's all. :)<BR>
<BR>
>> The basic idea was that human toil of all sorts would be more or less<BR>
>> gradually eliminated by automation, and that the resulting goods would be<BR>
>> distributed to everybody. In return, everybody would pitch in and help<BR>
with<BR>
>> tasks which could not be automated. In a very crude sense this is similar<BR>
to<BR>
>> communist thinking, but there are certain differences. Still, claiming a<BR>
>> lack of ideology is an ideology in and of itself, but more importantly<BR>
the<BR>
>> Technocracy is far from free of an ideological component.<BR>
><BR>
>Absolutely true. The Technocrats *claimed* that their regime would be<BR>
>free from ideology, though, so Phil's remark makes sense in context.<BR>
>(Those of you who are interested in this somewhat loopy movement,<BR>
>by the way, can check out the Technocracy homepage at<BR>
>http://www.technocracy.org/.)<BR>
<BR>
Well, they sell the line that they are free of ideology. Lurking behind the<BR>
Technocracy movement are some pretty big ideological assumptions, which is<BR>
why I said that they were far from free of an ideological component. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Everyone should realize that we probably will never have a single<BR>
>definition of "Feudal Technocracy." A VERY kind soul (thank you again!)<BR>
>sent me the text for Marc Miller's government article in High Passage #5.<BR>
>Here were his examples of "feudal technocracies":<BR>
<BR>
I'm not looking for a single description, just an explication of the basics<BR>
which others can hang their ideas on top of. The skeleton which I've<BR>
provided is quite mutable and can lend itself easily to a variety of<BR>
approaches.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>His examples suggest that *all* of us may have been a bit off-base. In any<BR>
>event, though, he suggested that there was no reason to be dogmatic<BR>
>about these questions:<BR>
><BR>
>Another reason for the labels that are provided in the government<BR>
>classification system is as an aid to imagination. The unaided imagination<BR>
>of even the most inventive referee can go dry after generating a few simple<BR>
>worlds. Using die rolls to create the individual factors for planets jogs<BR>
>the imagination, forcing the referee to think of rationales for the<BR>
>combinations that occur. The use of too familiar terms (such as monarchy)<BR>
>can stifle imag- ination by allowing the referee to settle into old lines<BR>
of<BR>
>thought.<BR>
<BR>
Oh. I thought that most of us were already on the same page with respect to<BR>
the notion that all of the elements of the planetary profile are there to<BR>
provide ideas to the GM and world designer.<BR>
<BR>
>In other words, MWM was *deliberately* obscure; he didn't *want*<BR>
>us to have a clear idea about different forms of government. So<BR>
>there probably isn't any true right-or-wrong answer.<BR>
<BR>
That's just what Marc *wants* you to believe. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:59:22 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
At 02:46 PM 5/12/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Please send me details on PayPal<BR>
<BR>
Got to www.paypal.com.  It's a service that lets you pay by credit card, <BR>
and they'll send a check or direct deposit to whoever you want to pay.  The <BR>
money is withdrawn from your CC as a purchase, not a cash withdrawal.  The <BR>
important thing is, as soon as the CC clears, they'll email the seller and <BR>
he'll know that payment is now guaranteed.  If used with direct deposit, <BR>
I've documented the turnaround time as being about 5 minutes, from entry of <BR>
CC info to money appearing in my account (depends on the banks, of course).<BR>
<BR>
The best part is that it's totally free to both seller and buyer.  They <BR>
earn money by collecting the interest during the time that your money is in <BR>
their account (you don't actually get it sent to you until you go to the <BR>
webpage and click withdraw  Of course, they urge you to elave the money <BR>
there and just use it to pay other paypal users).<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
<BR>
>My take on the dread Type 5 govt is fairly simple. Its a<BR>
>government where those technically competant in a <BR>
>particular field are responsible for governing that field.<BR>
<BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>I think the best example of it would be some municipal <BR>
>governments.<BR>
<BR>
That's technocratic, but not feudal.  Feudal implies at<BR>
least an economic and political relationship between<BR>
classes characterized as lord and vassal.  Oh, no are we<BR>
starting this one again?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:28:04 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>For those of you who sell your Traveller stuff:<BR>
><BR>
>I've got a lot of duplicate Traveller stuff I am considering<BR>
>selling (no list yet) and I was wondering what method is<BR>
>likely to get me the most money? (Even if it's a bit more<BR>
>trouble to do.)<BR>
><BR>
>I was thinking of selling them on Ebay and posting (once<BR>
>only) a list to the TML and to rec.games.frp.marketplace.<BR>
><BR>
>How much more money (if any) am I likely to get for my items<BR>
>if I have scanned pictures of them to help show their condition?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It might help. I know I prefer to bid on items that I can see the condition<BR>
of, but I also bid on items without picures...<BR>
<BR>
>Does using Pay Pal make this sort of thing easier & would<BR>
>you recommend it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Paypal only applies to buyers/sellers in the US at the moment. So I for one<BR>
can't use it... If you are based in the US, then it seems to have a good<BR>
reputation on r.g.f.marketplace.<BR>
<BR>
>Is selling multiple copies of the same item at the same<BR>
>time likely to result in lower prices? (Obviously basic<BR>
>economic theory says it should).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If you do, and want to maximise your money, sell them as individual items<BR>
over a period of time. If you sell them as a Dutch auction you'll sell them<BR>
at the lowest successful bid. i.e. if there are two items you sell at the<BR>
second highest bid price, unless the higher bidder(s) are purchasing<BR>
multiple copies.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
(who'd like to see your list first <g>)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:56:49 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: House Mechanics<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-05-11 20:39:00 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << I think he's asking if that means Tantalus and their sub-licensees<BR>
>  are the only people who can use the House Rules system from Dark<BR>
>  Conspiracy, T2K 2nd edition and TNE.<BR>
><BR>
>  Could, for example, Marc publish T5 using the House Rules if he wanted to?<BR>
><BR>
>  Dom<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> Well, that's an interestng question and I'm not sure what the answer is. How<BR>
> close do the mechanics have to be before it is a derivative work? D*mned if I<BR>
> know.<BR>
><BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
Loren, Copyright doesn't apply to mechanics.  By definition, they<BR>
are ideas.  Of course, the particular expression is protected.  Ideas<BR>
are protected by Trade Secret and Patent law (neither relevant here).<BR>
However, if you totally lifted a game system, you still might have to<BR>
worry about state Misappropriation laws (which are rarer these days)<BR>
and Trademark law.  IIRC, TSR asserted that its Trademark in<BR>
things like "Hit Points" and "Armor Class" were being infringed<BR>
by other game systems that used those terms and concepts.  To<BR>
my knowledge, this kind of thing never went to trial (which is<BR>
too bad because I find the assertion laughable) the threat alone<BR>
being enough to discourage small game design companies.  Someone<BR>
on list, if not yourself, probably knows if anything ever came from<BR>
those cases.<BR>
<BR>
The foundation principle for dealing with such things is this:<BR>
Non-patented, non-secret ideas, processes, routines, etc.,<BR>
are public domain.<BR>
<BR>
Copyright protects only particular expressions and the right<BR>
to reproduce them and derivative works.  So if someone<BR>
tried to copy the "House Rules" or create "House Rules II",<BR>
that person should worry.  But anything you create on your<BR>
own that may embody similar concepts and ideas should<BR>
be ok.<BR>
<BR>
disclaimer: I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer, yada, yada.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:00:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I was thinking of selling them on Ebay and posting (once<BR>
> only) a list to the TML and to rec.games.frp.marketplace.<BR>
<BR>
I have a rather selfish idea.  Why not post the list to the<BR>
TML and see if you can get a bid for the whole deal?<BR>
Someone might make it an easy transaction for you,<BR>
a lump sum for the whole kit.  Depending on what you've<BR>
got, of course.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:01:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
> Of particular interest<BR>
> was the "Technological Theocracy," in which rulers use<BR>
> advanced technology in order to "awe and cow" the low-tech<BR>
> masses, possibly pretending to be gods themselves. Listed<BR>
> examples from literature included Leiber's "Gather, Darkness!"<BR>
> and Zelazny's _Lord of Light_ and _Creatures of Light and<BR>
> Darkness_. <BR>
<BR>
The simplest example is the Goauld (sp?) from Star Gate<BR>
<BR>
> An interesting article...<BR>
<BR>
Yep, White Dwarf was a good magazine once.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 07:59:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Zembar" <zembar@swipnet.se><BR>
> Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
><BR>
> Hello, I'm quite new here, and maybe posting regarding this rather<BR>
controversial<BR>
> question isn't the best way to start off, but here goes...<BR>
><BR>
> I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the<BR>
promo<BR>
> leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those who<BR>
had<BR>
> access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a small TL-4<BR>
planet<BR>
> might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with a handful of<BR>
PGMP:s<BR>
> (with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one with two or three<BR>
air/rafts.<BR>
><BR>
> When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I<BR>
instantly<BR>
> thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism referring to the<BR>
use of<BR>
> a warrior class, and nations built upon the prospect of protecting their<BR>
> territories from the other territories' warriors. It would simply be ruled<BR>
by<BR>
> those with access to the superior technology. Therefore it could be called<BR>
a<BR>
> technocracy.<BR>
> Feudal + Technocracy = Feudal Technocracy (wohoo)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think thats a pretty fair description of some governments, although it's<BR>
easier to get FGMP reloads in the 3I, as all you have to come up with is<BR>
hard interstellar cash (hire out a dozen of your lads as mercenaries. Or<BR>
have some sympathisers play music in bars inhabited by bleeding heart<BR>
students on rich worlds - the Free West Papua movement does that to raise<BR>
funds, and 0.25 ICr is worth a lot more on a TL7 dirtball ...).<BR>
<BR>
But, for me, the basic solution is ... the poor schmucks in Contact and<BR>
Liaison Branch (who record the UWPs) and in Imperial Grand Survey (who<BR>
update them) dont have a fixed definition for Feudal Technocracies either,<BR>
so any given gov type 5 world could be ...<BR>
    1) ruled by a warrior elite using hi-tech imported weapons<BR>
    2) ruled by a technical elite who manage only within their field of<BR>
expertise<BR>
    3) governed by the idea of interlocking labour obligations (think feudal<BR>
labour dues applied to accountants ... "By ancient and inalienable duty, we<BR>
at BDK Williams owe a corvee of three days in every twenty to Akaaasi Steel<BR>
and Ceramics")<BR>
    4) a "conventional" feudal systems, where people trade loyalty for<BR>
protection (nb our current NSW premier <state governor> Bob Carr was quite<BR>
up-front at accepting that his faction in his party ran as a feudal system)<BR>
    5) something like Famile Spofulam - you have a society with power being<BR>
clan-based, and the technology available to each clan helps determine their<BR>
power<BR>
    6) something else.<BR>
<BR>
> Anything wrong with this?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Nope. You interpretation of a F-T is something that makes sense, and I<BR>
hadn't thought of it before.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2421<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2422<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: Seeking Matador Novels<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Sausages?(Re: Updates to Battle Rider)<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:53:11 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Seeking Matador Novels<BR>
<BR>
At 10:19 AM 5/12/00 -0500, Jason wrote:<BR>
>I am looking for books from the Matador series, by Steven Perry. They are<BR>
>wonderful reading, but have gone out-of-print, and since then, my copies<BR>
>have been disappeared. I've found the first one, "The Man Who Never Missed,"<BR>
>but would love to get the others for my personal library. These titles<BR>
>include:<BR>
><BR>
>"Matadora"<BR>
>"The Machiavelli Interface"<BR>
>"The 97th Step"<BR>
>"The Albino Knife"<BR>
>"Dark Steel"<BR>
>"Brother Death"<BR>
Don't forget "The Omega Cage" by  Perry & Michael Reaves, it is set in the <BR>
same series and features characters from some of the other books including <BR>
Juete.<BR>
<BR>
If you can't find the books in your local used book store, you might try <BR>
www.bookfinder.com, and do a search for Steve Perry.  All of these books <BR>
are listed, although some are outrageously priced by the bookstores ($40.00 <BR>
for a USED copy of Matadora????).  I have used it before to find books I <BR>
have looked a long time for.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
      nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"The avalanche has already started.<BR>
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:09:05 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
I disengage my lurking device.<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 12 May 2000, Zembar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the promo<BR>
> leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those who had<BR>
> access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a small TL-4 planet<BR>
> might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with a handful of PGMP:s<BR>
> (with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one with two or three air/rafts.<BR>
> <BR>
snip<BR>
<BR>
> Anything wrong with this?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Those are TEDs (technologically elevated dictators).  Not quite the same<BR>
thing, and I believe TEDs are listed separately on the table.  But they're<BR>
not that far apart, either.  I recall in Path of Tears there was a quote<BR>
labeling f-tech (which was advocated in the RC by Oriflamme) as nothing<BR>
different from TED.  So apparently they're close enough that f-tech<BR>
opponents can say that, just as right-wingers and left-wingers today call<BR>
each other Nazis and Commies without actually being so.<BR>
<BR>
Or at least that's my understanding.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:47:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
                 we<BR>
                 |<BR>
                 v<BR>
>> One thing that can do to *some* metals, but (last I heard) haven't<BR>
>> figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
>> *diamond*.<BR>
><BR>
> what would that do to the toughness of the armour?<BR>
<BR>
Nothing. It provides scratch resistance and corrosion resistance,<BR>
nothing more.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that while diamond is *hard*, it's also *brittle*, as many<BR>
a woman has found out when she chips her diamond ring by banging it<BR>
against something.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:51:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 11 May 00, at 4:57, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
>> "blue" the entire hull on a ship. <BR>
><BR>
> I'm sure you could, seeing as you could do it on earth today given the <BR>
> righ setup. You can get home blusing kits for repairing the blueing on <BR>
> a rifle or adding blueing to a knife, and they work in a normal <BR>
> atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but getting a *uniform* blue isn't easy. I suspect that working<BR>
in vacuum, you could blue in *sections* and still get the colors to<BR>
match.<BR>
<BR>
>> figured out how to do to ferrous alloys yet is depositing a layer of<BR>
>> *diamond*. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> *That* will resist corrosion. Just keep the hull temp below white hot...<BR>
><BR>
> However diamond will burn, so don't go too fast in dense high oxygen <BR>
> atmospheres :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the ignition temp is rather high. Traveller ships don't do<BR>
much "atmospheric braking" so I doubt their hulls get hot enough.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 01:11:20 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Matt Stevens,<BR>
<BR>
> 1. Feudalism can be thought of as a mutual exchange of services.<BR>
<BR>
  with a social system people are born into. So some are thralls,<BR>
  other are bondsmen, other are Freiherren (Knights) and a few<BR>
  are even higher in the pyramid.<BR>
<BR>
  The most common way to change social status (at least for Knights<BR>
  and up) is based on war. But this was the time of chivalry.<BR>
<BR>
  But from TL:7 up, war could mean nuclear war, and ruin the world.<BR>
<BR>
  So chivalry defines the terms of war, to avoid global desaster.<BR>
  I can think about of restrictions, that only hand weapons are allowed<BR>
  to be used between people of at least social status A. In the<BR>
  real feudalism, it was forbidden for a shield bearer to participate<BR>
  in fight, so it was usual to give them knight status before any<BR>
  larger fight. <BR>
<BR>
> 2. The Technocracy movement was largely an _economic_ <BR>
> movement; it's defining characteristic was a hostility to "the <BR>
> Price Syetem," i.e. the market economy. They wanted to replace <BR>
> liberal capitalism with some kind of command economy in <BR>
> which compensation would be based on units of "productive <BR>
> energy." <BR>
<BR>
  Technologie rules the world from TL:7+, and I can think about<BR>
  Feudal Technokrats about people, who are running the productions<BR>
  with thralls instead of worker. This is of course good for the<BR>
  thrall, because unlike a worker, a thrall belongs to the family<BR>
  even in bad times, while a worker can get fired.<BR>
<BR>
  Think about Feudal Technokrats similar to Japanes Coorperations,<BR>
  where people can be proud that their grandfather, had been Bushi<BR>
  under the same Mejin.<BR>
<BR>
> The connection between the two seems clear. Both technocracy<BR>
> and feudalism would lie outside the market economy. Both systems<BR>
> are based on the exchange of services, rather than cash. Therefore,<BR>
> these characteristics would be fundamental to Feudal Technocracy.<BR>
<BR>
  Of course: Feudal Technocracy exchanges cash. Mainly Imperial Credits,<BR>
  which have a similar status to gold in the medivial time. Abuse of<BR>
  cash can ruin the complete economic system (e.g. Spain did ruin its<BR>
  own system, because the Aztek gold was used to by products from<BR>
  Netherland and England ;-) but without export and import and therefore<BR>
  external money no small economie could sustain a techlevel that is<BR>
  higher than its population level for a longer time.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:51:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the OT but i may be using ebay myself soon.<BR>
Can anyone suggest another service usable internationally, specifically<BR>
UK/Uk or UK/USA<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak said<BR>
>Got to www.paypal.com.  It's a service that lets you pay by credit card,<BR>
>and they'll send a check or direct deposit to whoever you want to pay.  The<BR>
>money is withdrawn from your CC as a purchase, not a cash withdrawal.  The<BR>
>important thing is, as soon as the CC clears, they'll email the seller and<BR>
>he'll know that payment is now guaranteed.  If used with direct deposit,<BR>
>I've documented the turnaround time as being about 5 minutes, from entry of<BR>
>CC info to money appearing in my account (depends on the banks, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:03:34 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sausages?(Re: Updates to Battle Rider)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 12 May 2000 12:25:18 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Pete schrieb:<BR>
><BR>
>> - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
>> "Everything has an end, except sausages, which have two."     -Viking Proverb<BR>
>> Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
>> NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>And I humble thought it was from a German songwriter...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
GURPS Vikings wouldn't lie to me would it? Would it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:29:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> For those of you who sell your Traveller stuff:<BR>
><BR>
> I've got a lot of duplicate Traveller stuff I am considering<BR>
> selling (no list yet) and I was wondering what method is<BR>
> likely to get me the most money? (Even if it's a bit more<BR>
> trouble to do.) <BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking of selling them on Ebay and posting (once<BR>
> only) a list to the TML and to rec.games.frp.marketplace.<BR>
<BR>
I they go on ebay I can't participate (nor am I sure I'd want to even<BR>
if my browser *was* working!).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:26:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 11 May 00, at 23:44, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I<BR>
>> > don't have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Not that I've seen.<BR>
>><BR>
>> > From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hmm. A man-portable ESA system. Let's see.<BR>
>><BR>
>> With batteries a x20 use, RoF 1/turn system with a TNE AV of 1 would<BR>
>> weigh 43.3kg - marginal for man-portability, and very uneconomical<BR>
>> (weight-wise) compared to combat armour.<BR>
>><BR>
>> With fuel cells we get a dry weight of 57.6kg, and a fuel consumption<BR>
>> of 5.7L per hour (8mL per use).<BR>
>><BR>
>> With EPGs the "dry" weight is 38.6kg and each cell weighs 0.11kg, so 20<BR>
>> shots weigh 2.2kg for a total weight of 40.8kg.<BR>
>><BR>
>> One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so<BR>
>> they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration<BR>
>> base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use<BR>
>> EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
<BR>
You mean like the half meter dragonflies Earth used to have?<BR>
<BR>
Now *those* are something I'd be interested in seeing brought back.<BR>
They'd be "neat" inside a large enclosed "insectiary". And if they<BR>
escaped, hawks and the like would make short work of them,.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:22:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hello, Chris.<BR>
<BR>
> >Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
> >the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description), and their<BR>
> >power came from land rather than technical expertise. This doesn't mean<BR>
> >that an FT can't have medieval trappings, of course.<BR>
><BR>
> I only see the problem as "one-fold", and even then, it's not much of a<BR>
> problem. First, though, I have to clear up an issue: I don't think that<BR>
> feudalism means "medieval trappings". That's not really what I'm getting at.<BR>
<BR>
I never said you did. Phil was arguing that medieval trappings were silly, so<BR>
I said that I *could* imagine them (even if my first post on the subject seemed<BR>
to argue otherwise).<BR>
<BR>
> What I am getting at is the more or less vertical system of duties and<BR>
> responsibilities which seems to characterize feudal systems, and which makes<BR>
> them "unique". It's not a matter of slapping "Baron" on a technician, it's<BR>
> getting the feel right.<BR>
<BR>
I never said it was. In fact I agree that a "feudal technocracy" probably<BR>
involves some kind of exchange in duties and responsibilities. In fact<BR>
I believe we're actually in agreement on most points, we're just arguing<BR>
for the sake of arguing by this stage.<BR>
><BR>
> So, back to the "one-fold" problem. I see it as one-fold because the<BR>
> "theory" of feudalism allows for consent by the governed. I don't believe<BR>
> that this is how it was always practiced, but I do believe that this is how<BR>
> it was thought to work, at least in the west.<BR>
<BR>
Well I agree that it's defenders never said that legitimate power came<BR>
from land (even if it *did* come from land in practice). Still, the fact that<BR>
there<BR>
was a perceived exchange of "services" (food for protection)<BR>
does not mean that the system was justified in terms of consent of<BR>
the governed. It's an important difference. Kings and princes ruled in<BR>
the name of God or the natural order of things, not popular sovereignty<BR>
or popular consent in any meaningful sense. You'd have to wait for<BR>
Hobbes (long before the death of feudalism in the West)<BR>
before that view gained common currency.<BR>
<BR>
> So now, we're left with the issue of feudalism being based on land<BR>
> ownership. I believe this to be only partially true, as the Roman historian<BR>
> Tacitus described a proto-feudal system of personal loyalty among the<BR>
> *semi-nomadic* Germanic tribes he had come in contact with.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe, but it still wasn't the same as _technical expertise_, which was<BR>
my whole point.<BR>
<BR>
> >Since I'm the guy who introduced the Technocracy movement into the<BR>
> >discussion, I should say that I certainly don't believe that the<BR>
> Technocracy<BR>
> >movement would have any influence over Imperial society, or that<BR>
> >any of the FTs in the Imperium would be consciously aware of<BR>
> >Technocratic ideology. I simply suggested that the Imperium's FTs<BR>
> >may *resemble* the Technocratic blueprint in a very broad way.<BR>
><BR>
> I was specifically answering a comment, in which the poster had said that<BR>
> snagging ideas from the Technocracy made more sense than using a feudal<BR>
> system of obligations as a base. I disagreed. That's all. :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but I was replying to Phil as well, suggesting my reason for<BR>
mentioning the Technocrats in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
> >Absolutely true. The Technocrats *claimed* that their regime would be<BR>
> >free from ideology, though, so Phil's remark makes sense in context.<BR>
> >(Those of you who are interested in this somewhat loopy movement,<BR>
> >by the way, can check out the Technocracy homepage at<BR>
> >http://www.technocracy.org/.)<BR>
><BR>
> Well, they sell the line that they are free of ideology. Lurking behind the<BR>
> Technocracy movement are some pretty big ideological assumptions, which is<BR>
> why I said that they were far from free of an ideological component. :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes of course, but this is why I said the Phil's comment made sense<BR>
in context. He was describing the Technocrat position, in which engineers<BR>
and technicians would rule "without regard to ideology." Sure, they were<BR>
full of it, but medieval knights and dukes were full of it when they argued<BR>
that they offered a fair exchange with the peasantry. It doesn't mean it<BR>
isn't worth examining.<BR>
<BR>
In short, I think we're arguing about matters we never disagreed on.<BR>
The only real disagreement we have is on the nature of medieval feudalism,<BR>
which is a bit beside the point...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:56:25 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:52 AM -0400 5/12/00, Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
>>  Note I didn't specify HOW MUCH I was willing to pay... or which<BR>
>>  currency.:-)<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Seriously, does anyone know which issue of High Passage featured<BR>
>>  an article on governments by Marc Miller? If anyone would like to sell<BR>
>>  me *the issue* I would be willing to pay handsomely for it. (Or you can<BR>
>>  exchange it for High Passage #3, of which i have a copy.)<BR>
><BR>
>That three-page article is in issue number 5, the final issue FASA<BR>
>published.  That issue is about the easiest one to find on the market.  The<BR>
>article is not exceptional, but it does give the examples, as mentioned.<BR>
>Things like the Democratic Party in Chicago being a Charismatic Oligarchy<BR>
>and an oil derrick being a Company/Corporation ruled world :-)<BR>
<BR>
Assuming you're talking about offshore oil rigs, every single one of<BR>
them is operating under some government.  Even in international waters,<BR>
the oil-fields are claimed by nearby countries.  The US government can<BR>
and will shut down any rig operating in US claimed fields if it does<BR>
not comply with US laws and regulations.  Drilling companies probably<BR>
have less of a free hand on a rig than they do in their offices.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:09:57 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
BidPay - works like a charm.<BR>
<BR>
At 12:51 AM 5/13/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry for the OT but i may be using ebay myself soon.<BR>
>Can anyone suggest another service usable internationally, specifically<BR>
>UK/Uk or UK/USA<BR>
><BR>
>Juliean Galak said<BR>
>>Got to <http://www.paypal.com/>www.paypal.com. It's a service that lets you<BR>
pay by credit card,<BR>
>>and they'll send a check or direct deposit to whoever you want to pay. The<BR>
>>money is withdrawn from your CC as a purchase, not a cash withdrawal. The<BR>
>>important thing is, as soon as the CC clears, they'll email the seller and<BR>
>>he'll know that payment is now guaranteed. If used with direct deposit,<BR>
>>I've documented the turnaround time as being about 5 minutes, from entry of<BR>
>>CC info to money appearing in my account (depends on the banks, of course).<BR>
><BR>
>Peter<BR>
><http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk/>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserv<BR>
e.co.uk<BR>
>peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
>p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
><BR>
>IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+<BR>
>vi-<BR>
> And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
><BR>
>I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
>shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
>gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
>die."<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:09:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I instantly<BR>
> thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism referring to the <BR>
> use of a warrior class, and nations built upon the prospect of protecting<BR>
> their territories from the other territories' warriors.<BR>
<BR>
You are suffering from the usual misconceptions regarding what a fuedal<BR>
system really was.<BR>
<BR>
While warriors were often involved, the basic concept is actaully the<BR>
ancestor of modern contract law.<BR>
<BR>
The "lord" and the "vassal" swore oaths to each other which spelled out<BR>
in *great* detail what duties *each* had towards the other. Frequently,<BR>
the "major" portions were things like the vassal agreeing to provide a<BR>
certain number of troops with a specified type of equipment and<BR>
training for a given term of days during a specific part of the year<BR>
(usually it amounted to "after spring planting and before harvest"<BR>
which were the times men could be spared from farm work). If the lrd<BR>
wanted more men, or wanted the agreed levy to serve longer than<BR>
specified in the oaths, then he had to *negotiate* for that. <BR>
<BR>
In return, he had to protect the vassal from folks attacking him. <BR>
<BR>
But there were usually a *lot* more obligations in *both* directions.<BR>
The vassal would supply animals and crops or an equivalent value in<BR>
gold, And the lord might supply stuff *he* had access to that the<BR>
vassal didn't (say iron, or sulfur or some such). <BR>
<BR>
It wasn't the mere "rule by the strong" that too many history books<BR>
reduce it to.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:16:27 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
<BR>
Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Gotta be worried about a higher power at work huh?<BR>
><BR>
> M<BR>
<BR>
Heavens no.  I work from home. And I am unsupervised.<BR>
Unless you count Stupid the Cat.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
Work from home? Unsupervised?<BR>
<BR>
I should be paying 4.95 a minute to hear this......<BR>
<BR>
Michael - who has been a bureaucrat for 3 years and outranks maybe 3% (97 to<BR>
go!)<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; With a high tech hi pop world - I could see people spending their<BR>
entire lives working from home and never meeting (in reality) any clients or<BR>
what have you. The MT Journal write up for Vincennes had something about<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:18:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
I originally joined the list in 1991. Does that make me an Elder?<BR>
<BR>
Michael (accessing the list as Adam Naylor as I was illegally using his<BR>
account (with his permission though))<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 03:16:26 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay thoughts  (Was: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: J. Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
BidPay - works like a charm.<BR>
- --------------------------------------------<BR>
If you have a credit card.<BR>
<BR>
I don't... :-(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Also, it allows UK buyers to pay US sellers, but not vice versa. They can<BR>
only send money orders  to US or Canadian addresses...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:00:12 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
At 09:49 PM 5/12/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >Hey, if small comments (like "Booooooring" and "Tonight is the grav-ball<BR>
> >finals") were added, the book might make a great flavour text for<BR>
>university<BR>
> >life as well.<BR>
><BR>
>Sounds like Shadowrun etc, however I can live with that.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, that's the best aspect of Shadowrun, the fact that so much of the <BR>
sourcebooks was "in character".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:01:08 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about <BR>
size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful <BR>
work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:09:54 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
on 5/12/00 2:11 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 11 May 00, at 9:18, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just<BR>
>> a conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status<BR>
>> being based on control of land, its based on control of available<BR>
>> technology.  <BR>
<snip>  <BR>
Concepts based out of the 1930 technocracy movement,<BR>
> where the engineer/leaders have become a separate caste with<BR>
> difficult entrance exams which once passed grant the new<BR>
> technocrat all manner of rights and responsibilities seems much<BR>
> more fun, interesting, and reasonable.<BR>
<BR>
And where society values those skills (monetarily or otherwise) it's<BR>
possible to maintain a "caste" with internal rules and codes (e.g.- the<BR>
American Medical Association or the American Bar Association). For example<BR>
many lawyers give legal advice based not upon the precedent of actual court<BR>
rulings or legal statutes, but based upon "The Bar's" ethical rules. Even if<BR>
something is "legal", if it violates that ethical cannon, they can lose<BR>
their license to practice law as a result of being disciplined by "The Bar".<BR>
And how well does the medical profession police itself? They are more<BR>
interested in protecting their "status" from bad publicity than protecting<BR>
their patients.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:15:59 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
At 12:01 AM 5/13/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about <BR>
>size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful <BR>
>work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
<BR>
oops.  That was supposed to go to Jesse directly....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:36:22 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I am curious about this as well...I made the conclusion long ago I<BR>
would have to get a tablet to do any real drawing.  The problem is money.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 12:01 AM<BR>
Subject: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about<BR>
> size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful<BR>
> work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                                -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2422<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2423</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2423<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:18:33 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: New-be wants to know<BR>
<BR>
On 05/11/00 at 03:38 PM,  "adsr" <adsr@mato.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Greetings!  <BR>
<BR>
Welcome, Andy!<BR>
<BR>
>I am new on this list and would like to get some 411.  I have been<BR>
>a CT fan/player/ref for many, many years (since early 80's) and<BR>
>would like to know what where peopel are from on the list.  I<BR>
>always try and find Trav relatives whether Vilani, Vargr, Aslan,<BR>
>etc... maybe a game or two for those in my area.  Also, does anyone<BR>
>have information regarding the 2000 schedule for gaming conventions<BR>
>here in the US?<BR>
<BR>
Don't have an answer about gaming conventions, but if you want to<BR>
see a list of "fellow Travellers" have I got a list for you! <g><BR>
<BR>
Goto my website, http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr, and follow the<BR>
link to the Traveller Mailing List Roster.  I'm always happy to add<BR>
new folks, too (email and web info optional of course).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 02:04:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Matt Stevens<BR>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 8:23 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hello, Chris.<BR>
Hello again Matt. :)<BR>
<BR>
I hit the books and I will attempt to clear a few things up.<BR>
<BR>
>Well I agree that it's defenders never said that legitimate power came<BR>
>from land (even if it *did* come from land in practice). Still, the fact<BR>
that<BR>
>there was a perceived exchange of "services" (food for protection)<BR>
>does not mean that the system was justified in terms of consent of<BR>
>the governed.<BR>
<BR>
I made a bonehead mistake earlier today. I should know better. I suspected<BR>
that I was making a mistake. I knew I was missing something. I flattened the<BR>
distinction between manorialism and feudalism. I should have paid more<BR>
attention in class. I apologize. I will now attempt to rectify the<BR>
situation:<BR>
<BR>
Feudalism refers to the arrangements between the nobility, and to some<BR>
extent the church. The bonding of vassal to lord didn't need to be justified<BR>
in terms of the consent of the governed because it *hinged* on the consent<BR>
of the governed. No justification was needed.<BR>
<BR>
Manorialism refers to the arrangements between the peasants and the<BR>
landlord. Manorialism is a little more difficult to break down into terms of<BR>
"consent", because there were several things going on at once. First, not<BR>
all farmers ended up manorized. Free farmers continued to labor throughout<BR>
the middle ages. Second, the concept was an extension of Diocletian's famous<BR>
edict, which removed any concept of the consent of the governed. Lastly, as<BR>
the middle ages progressed and the institution of manorialism spread many<BR>
free farming communities actively sought the protection of lords. In order<BR>
to gain this protection, they transferred the ownership of their lands to<BR>
the lords.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, the issue's not so clear cut. Feudalism, however, is<BR>
firmly rooted in the consent of the governed. Manorialism is, but isn't.<BR>
<BR>
>It's an important difference. Kings and princes ruled in<BR>
>the name of God or the natural order of things, not popular sovereignty<BR>
>or popular consent in any meaningful sense. You'd have to wait for<BR>
>Hobbes (long before the death of feudalism in the West)<BR>
>before that view gained common currency.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite. You're getting ahead of yourself here. There were big changes<BR>
between feudalism, manorialism and Hobbes. The feudal structure was all but<BR>
gone by the time Hobbes showed up. Increased urbanization and significant<BR>
changes in the way soldiers were "paid" had weakened feudalism immensely. On<BR>
the other hand, Manorialism had been on its last legs ever since the plague<BR>
of the 14th century.<BR>
<BR>
Further, I don't think that it's a matter of popular sovereignty, which I<BR>
see as "horizontal". It's a matter of *personal* loyalty, which is vertical.<BR>
<BR>
>> So now, we're left with the issue of feudalism being based on land<BR>
>> ownership. I believe this to be only partially true, as the Roman<BR>
historian<BR>
>> Tacitus described a proto-feudal system of personal loyalty among the<BR>
>> *semi-nomadic* Germanic tribes he had come in contact with.<BR>
><BR>
>Maybe, but it still wasn't the same as _technical expertise_, which was<BR>
>my whole point.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about technical expertise. This<BR>
is from the post you initially responded to:<BR>
<BR>
"Replace the bit about "technical activities" with something less specific<BR>
and you have a relatively accurate, if rather short, description of<BR>
feudalism."<BR>
<BR>
I thought that you were quarreling with this characterization of feudalism.<BR>
I never intended to imply that Tacitus had seen feudal technocracies in<BR>
action.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 02:05:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
Juliean<BR>
<BR>
I'm interested in the graphics tablets as well. Perhaps you and Jesse<BR>
wouldn't mind continueing this discuss in public, but on the Trav3D list?<BR>
I'd really like to read Jesse's take on graphic tablet, and I don't concider<BR>
this OT for the 3D list.<BR>
<BR>
To the TML sorry for the bandwith.<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 12:15 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:01 AM 5/13/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about<BR>
> >size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful<BR>
> >work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
><BR>
> oops.  That was supposed to go to Jesse directly....<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:07:17 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I originally joined the list in 1991. Does that make me an Elder?<BR>
<BR>
Sure.... That only makes me a Near-Elder then....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 03:27:17 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grandfather is punishing you<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Work from home? Unsupervised?<BR>
><BR>
> I should be paying 4.95 a minute to hear this......<BR>
<BR>
Hehe.  Its just the 'benefit' of being low man on the totem<BR>
pole when a big company buys a very small one.  I'm not<BR>
on anyone's radar, but the paycheck's keep coming in.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:34:11 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish)<BR>
<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>  > The big obstacle to the development and continued survival of life was<BR>
>  > felt to be increased levels of [primarily] ultraviolet radiation (the<BR>
>  > geological background being roughly the same).<BR>
><BR>
>I felt that PNA paved over (at least) two problems for the price of one<BR>
>handwave.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
How does PNA pave over UV damage?  PNA can be photolysed too.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the amount of UV on the early Earth isn't known.  Nor<BR>
is the niche that it started in.  If it started in some deep<BR>
sea thermal system, UV wouldn't be much of a problem.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 03:42:07 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For example<BR>
> many lawyers give legal advice based not upon the precedent of actual court<BR>
> rulings or legal statutes, but based upon "The Bar's" ethical rules. Even if<BR>
> something is "legal", if it violates that ethical cannon, they can lose<BR>
> their license to practice law as a result of being disciplined by "The Bar".<BR>
<BR>
Say what?<BR>
<BR>
First of all, state bars are usually, if not always, authorized<BR>
by the state.  The terminology varies from place to place.<BR>
Here in Massachusetts (the oldest bar in the US - actually, its<BR>
about 100 years older than the U.S., started in 1680s), there<BR>
is a Board of Bar Overseers.  They control all the licensing,<BR>
etc., a state entity (or maybe 'quasi-state' is a better term).<BR>
By contrast, the Massachusetts Bar Association, and the<BR>
Boston Bar Association are independent institutions that seem<BR>
to be more like 'networking' opportunities than anything else,<BR>
though there are 'practice groups' and committees you can<BR>
join that discuss different areas of law and make recommendations,<BR>
and even lobby state legistlatures.  I'm not a member of either, yet<BR>
I am a member of the Massachusetts state bar.  If the state bar<BR>
punishes me, its the State.<BR>
<BR>
Certainly the ABA promulgates ethical rules, amongst other<BR>
things, but those have to be adopted by each state.<BR>
<BR>
As far your point about what lawyers can base advice on,<BR>
it would be malpractice to fail to give advice based on legal<BR>
precedent.  The ethical rules incorporate this.  So, if something<BR>
is legal to do, giving advice in support of that cannot break<BR>
an ethical rule.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sort of hoping you have some crazy example from the<BR>
backwoods of how it could be otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 04:03:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Things like the Democratic Party in Chicago being a Charismatic Oligarchy<BR>
> >and an oil derrick being a Company/Corporation ruled world :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Assuming you're talking about offshore oil rigs, every single one of<BR>
> them is operating under some government.  Even in international waters,<BR>
> the oil-fields are claimed by nearby countries.  The US government can<BR>
> and will shut down any rig operating in US claimed fields if it does<BR>
> not comply with US laws and regulations.  Drilling companies probably<BR>
> have less of a free hand on a rig than they do in their offices.<BR>
<BR>
Yup.  There are "international waters" and there are "international<BR>
waters".  The Missippi River is an international water all the way<BR>
up into Minnesota.  Offshore, outside the territorial limit (which used<BR>
to be 3 and is now 12 miles), there is the Exclusive Economic Zone<BR>
(it used to be a bit more complicated with coastal states having the<BR>
exploitation rights out as far as the water was 200meters deep or less,<BR>
or where it was feasible to exploit them, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (1982):<BR>
Part II, Section 1, Article 3: Breadth of the Territorial Sea:<BR>
Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its<BR>
territorial sea up to a limit of 12 nautical miles . . .<BR>
<BR>
Article 57:  Breadth of the Exclusive Economic Zone<BR>
The [EEZ] shall not extend beyond 200 nautical miles<BR>
 . . .  [snip verbiage that says this includes the territorial<BR>
sea distance, i.e., it is _not_ 12 + 200, its just 200.]<BR>
<BR>
Article 56: Rights, jurisdiction and duties of the coastal<BR>
State in the EEZ [paraphrasing]<BR>
1.  . . . (a) sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring and<BR>
exploiting, conserving and managing the natural resources<BR>
 . . . of the waters superjacent to the sea-bed and of the<BR>
sea-bed and its subsoil,  . . .<BR>
(b) jurisdiction  . . . with regard to (i) the establishment<BR>
and use of artificial islands, installations and structures . . .<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 04:07:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, no are we starting this one again?<BR>
<BR>
"You're soaking in it."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 14:51, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 11 May 00, at 4:57, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
> >> "blue" the entire hull on a ship. <BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'm sure you could, seeing as you could do it on earth today given the<BR>
> > righ setup. You can get home blusing kits for repairing the blueing on a<BR>
> > rifle or adding blueing to a knife, and they work in a normal<BR>
> > atmosphere.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure, but getting a *uniform* blue isn't easy. I suspect that working in<BR>
> vacuum, you could blue in *sections* and still get the colors to match.<BR>
<BR>
There is that, but I figure that if the demand for starship sized even <BR>
blueing was there someone would find a way. Whether it would be worth <BR>
it vs a vacuum based process is another matter.<BR>
<BR>
> > However diamond will burn, so don't go too fast in dense high oxygen<BR>
> > atmospheres :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, but the ignition temp is rather high. Traveller ships don't do<BR>
> much "atmospheric braking" so I doubt their hulls get hot enough.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Still I imagine that you'd be a bit annoyed if you got hit by a <BR>
laser or plasma gun in an atmosphere, though.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 22:49, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so<BR>
> > they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration<BR>
> > base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use<BR>
> > EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
<BR>
Take a fair sized mozzie to soak up a 1400kJ zap.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 16:26, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> On 11 May 00, at 23:44, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> > I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before. <BR>
> >> > I don't have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Not that I've seen.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> > From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is<BR>
> >> > man-portable.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Hmm. A man-portable ESA system. Let's see.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> With batteries a x20 use, RoF 1/turn system with a TNE AV of 1 would<BR>
> >> weigh 43.3kg - marginal for man-portability, and very uneconomical<BR>
> >> (weight-wise) compared to combat armour.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> With fuel cells we get a dry weight of 57.6kg, and a fuel consumption<BR>
> >> of 5.7L per hour (8mL per use).<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> With EPGs the "dry" weight is 38.6kg and each cell weighs 0.11kg, so 20<BR>
> >> shots weigh 2.2kg for a total weight of 40.8kg.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so<BR>
> >> they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration<BR>
> >> base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use<BR>
> >> EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
> >><BR>
> >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
> <BR>
> You mean like the half meter dragonflies Earth used to have?<BR>
<BR>
He probably means like those cow sized things that Auzzies usually <BR>
insist live in theor northern swamps and in the New Guinea bush, <BR>
waiting for soldiers on exercise...<BR>
<BR>
> Now *those* are something I'd be interested in seeing brought back.<BR>
> They'd be "neat" inside a large enclosed "insectiary". And if they<BR>
> escaped, hawks and the like would make short work of them,.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yes, very cool.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 19:10, Zembar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hello, I'm quite new here, and maybe posting regarding this rather<BR>
> controversial question isn't the best way to start off, but here goes...<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember reading somewhere in the TNE main rulebook, or maybe in the<BR>
> promo leaflet for TNE, that in the wilds, many planets were ruled by those<BR>
> who had access to technologies that wasn't reproducible. For example a<BR>
> small TL-4 planet might be ruled by two constantly warring gangs, one with<BR>
> a handful of PGMP:s (with ammunition used extremely sparingly) and one<BR>
> with two or three air/rafts.<BR>
> <BR>
> When I saw the entry Feudal Technocracy entry on the UWP tables I<BR>
> instantly thought it was this they referred to, with the feudalism<BR>
> referring to the use of a warrior class, and nations built upon the<BR>
> prospect of protecting their territories from the other territories'<BR>
> warriors. It would simply be ruled by those with access to the superior<BR>
> technology. Therefore it could be called a technocracy. Feudal +<BR>
> Technocracy = Feudal Technocracy (wohoo)<BR>
> <BR>
> Anything wrong with this?<BR>
<BR>
What you've described is a Technologically Elevated Dictatorship, or <BR>
TED (Teddy, etc). According to some in TNE times the only difference <BR>
between a TED and a F-Tech (Feudal Technocracy) is a matter of degree, <BR>
but others are of the opinion that there is a real difference (mainly <BR>
those running F-Techs).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 10:51, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
> <BR>
> What GTL would this be? Does it not exist in GT? It would seem to be an<BR>
> absolutely mandatory device for BD troops and even just normal infantry.<BR>
<BR>
It's not really man-portable, and AFAIK isn't in GT. As for TL it's <BR>
available at TTL9+, so GTL8+ I guess.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 12 May 00, at 15:18, Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
> the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description), and<BR>
> their power came from land rather than technical expertise. This doesn't<BR>
> mean that an FT can't have medieval trappings, of course.<BR>
<BR>
Actually the feudal part of their vassalage was ruled by consent of the <BR>
governed. However as this was really only the knightly clss, it is true <BR>
that most of their vassals didn't consent, but the lower ranks in <BR>
society didn't really have a feudal relationship with their lords, any <BR>
more than we do with our governments, even though in some ways there is <BR>
a similar flow of obligations (we pay taxes, the government defends us, <BR>
etc).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:27:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 1:11, Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Matt Stevens,<BR>
> <BR>
> > 1. Feudalism can be thought of as a mutual exchange of services.<BR>
> <BR>
>   with a social system people are born into. So some are thralls,<BR>
>   other are bondsmen, other are Freiherren (Knights) and a few<BR>
>   are even higher in the pyramid.<BR>
<BR>
This need not be the case, and wasn't in early feudal Europe, where <BR>
anyone could be a knight if they had the gear and aptitude. It became <BR>
so when land became harder to get, and the wealthy families started to <BR>
get a lock on it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:27:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 2:04, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Feudalism refers to the arrangements between the nobility, and to some<BR>
> extent the church. The bonding of vassal to lord didn't need to be<BR>
> justified in terms of the consent of the governed because it *hinged* on<BR>
> the consent of the governed. No justification was needed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Manorialism refers to the arrangements between the peasants and the<BR>
> landlord. Manorialism is a little more difficult to break down into terms<BR>
> of "consent", because there were several things going on at once. First,<BR>
> not all farmers ended up manorized. Free farmers continued to labor<BR>
> throughout the middle ages. Second, the concept was an extension of<BR>
> Diocletian's famous edict, which removed any concept of the consent of the<BR>
> governed. Lastly, as the middle ages progressed and the institution of<BR>
> manorialism spread many free farming communities actively sought the<BR>
> protection of lords. In order to gain this protection, they transferred<BR>
> the ownership of their lands to the lords.<BR>
> <BR>
> With that being said, the issue's not so clear cut. Feudalism, however, is<BR>
> firmly rooted in the consent of the governed. Manorialism is, but isn't.<BR>
<BR>
Which is what I just tried to say a post to two ago, but without being <BR>
able to remember the term I wanted (Manorialism) is wasn't so clear. <BR>
Thanks Chris.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:59:00 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 has been released. Download details can be found at<BR>
the Heaven & Earth website:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:18:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Alistair Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:18 AM 05/11/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >One obvious idea for what a 'fuedal technocracy' is is that its just<BR>
a <BR>
> >conventional fuedal system, except that rather than status being<BR>
based on <BR>
> >control of land, its based on control of available technology.<BR>
<BR>
> Control of technology and information???  Sounds like most IT<BR>
departments <BR>
> and techs that I know...<BR>
<BR>
The Bastard Operator From Vland, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Alistair<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 07:23:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Selling Traveller Materials?<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Trader on Downport.com has a standing offer to purchase<BR>
collections.<BR>
<BR>
- -Merc. Sgt. Crusty<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Steve Daniels" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
><BR>
> I have a rather selfish idea.  Why not post the list to the<BR>
> TML and see if you can get a bid for the whole deal?<BR>
> Someone might make it an easy transaction for you,<BR>
> a lump sum for the whole kit.  Depending on what you've<BR>
> got, of course.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:34:43 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 13 May 2000 09:59:00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 has been released. Download details can be found at<BR>
>the Heaven & Earth website:-<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
><BR>
>Stuart Ferris<BR>
>stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
>http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
WOW! Great program! I can't believe it's freeware!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:51:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hello again, Chris,<BR>
<BR>
> I made a bonehead mistake earlier today. I should know better. I suspected<BR>
> that I was making a mistake. I knew I was missing something. I flattened the<BR>
> distinction between manorialism and feudalism. I should have paid more<BR>
> attention in class. I apologize. I will now attempt to rectify the<BR>
> situation:<BR>
> <BR>
> Feudalism refers to the arrangements between the nobility, and to some<BR>
> extent the church. The bonding of vassal to lord didn't need to be justified<BR>
> in terms of the consent of the governed because it *hinged* on the consent<BR>
> of the governed. No justification was needed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Manorialism refers to the arrangements between the peasants and the<BR>
> landlord. <BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Thanks, this clarifies matters quite a bit. I think we're more or less<BR>
on the same page now.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:42:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Terry Carlino" <BR>
> The lord is still there, all these Barons, Marquise, and Dukes and so<BR>
> forth.  They agree to serve the Imperium and in return they receive land<BR>
> (which may or may not be developed and have people and business on it),<BR>
> stock options in the Megacorps, and power in the government.<BR>
<BR>
This is just an interpretation thing, and is just IMTU, but I tend to view<BR>
the major nobles as holding their lands relatively independently of the<BR>
Imperium.  That is, in many cases, their ancestors ruled their worlds<BR>
before the Imperium ever existed, or, at least, the land has been in their<BR>
family for centuries.  The major titles are hereditary, and the Emperor can<BR>
only remove them in practice by the threatened or actual application of<BR>
force.  (An Imperial Warrant is a threatened application of force.)<BR>
<BR>
In theory, of course, it might more closely resemble Terry's model.  This<BR>
does, however, also fall a little bit foul of the Imperial claim to only<BR>
rule the space between the worlds, but such inconsistencies are only to be<BR>
expected in a fudged together polity like the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
There are, of course, "nobles" who are genuine Imperial appointments.  This<BR>
would include PC nobles in "normal" low-level games.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2423<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2424</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2424<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: IW material<BR>
re: Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
3-D Mapping<BR>
1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: Other non-British non-Californian list members<BR>
Re: Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
A newbie posts<BR>
RE: Graphics Tables<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:34:42 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: IW material<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <BR>
> Dibs on the Civil War/Arbellatra Regency!!!!  (scribble, scribble)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I was working on this period for a while last year.  I've got chunks<BR>
of poorly organised stuff and feral ideas about Soegz, the politics of the<BR>
early part of the war, and various odds and ends.  With a bit of polishing<BR>
and organising, it could become useful.<BR>
<BR>
Care to collaborate?  Even if you would prefer not to, I would be happy to<BR>
share some of my ideas.  I would really like to see "the Vargr Terror"(*)<BR>
become canonical.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
(*) Soegz' Vargr Huscarles arresting human nobles on Capital.  Bad PR for<BR>
Arbellatra, to put it mildly.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:27:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
At 0:23 -0400 13/5/00, Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:<BR>
>I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about<BR>
>size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful<BR>
>work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
<BR>
Well, bigger is better, but you can get around some of the issues <BR>
with smaller size tablets by zooming in on the area you are working <BR>
on which effectively increases the resolution/sensitivity of the pad. <BR>
I use a 4x5" one here, and it's okay as a starter and much better <BR>
than a mouse.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:25:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
At 0:23 -0400 13/5/00, "Karen and Michael Hughes" <BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> wrote:<BR>
>I originally joined the list in 1991. Does that make me an Elder?<BR>
<BR>
<UK Comedy reference - Engage Brummie accent><BR>
<BR>
"Considerably more elder than me.... "<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:20:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
At 18:02 -0400 12/5/00, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
>I didn't say Elder /God/, but I do think Jesse's work (When I think "Far<BR>
>Trader", I see his renderings) is /godhead/, and Jon is definitely a major<BR>
>contributer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Arghh! <Dom looks around to see if a Hunting Horror has arrived to <BR>
punish his mistake! No? Phew! Obviously the stars were right for such <BR>
an revelation.><BR>
<BR>
I happen to agree with you. On one the Brubek's chats I discussed <BR>
this with Steve Jackson, who also said it'd be nice to see Jesse's <BR>
work on say, the cover of T5. Imagine T5 with a Beowulf boosting to <BR>
orbit...<BR>
<BR>
Or an illustration of the Free Trader Beowulf text with a ship <BR>
trailing damage and spewing gasses having been hit....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I think there is a distinction to be made between TML Old One<BR>
>and Traveller Elder. A few get to have both titles I guess, like Doug and<BR>
>yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Doug yes. Me. I'm really a TML Newbie as I only appeared here 96/97 - <BR>
it's BITS who gave me the details.<BR>
<BR>
> Jesse has been on the TML longer than I, perhaps he qualifies as<BR>
>well for both. I am of course not qualified as anything but Acolyte if I am<BR>
>lucky. I am running a TML debt, having received more than I have given. Just<BR>
>don't put me in the brig, ok?<BR>
<BR>
Nah. Plasma Cannons are much cheaper than the overheads of keeping <BR>
someone in the brig.<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:23:40 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
At 02:05 AM 5/13/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Juliean<BR>
><BR>
>I'm interested in the graphics tablets as well. Perhaps you and Jesse<BR>
>wouldn't mind continueing this discuss in public, but on the Trav3D list?<BR>
>I'd really like to read Jesse's take on graphic tablet, and I don't concider<BR>
>this OT for the 3D list.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be glad to, but I don't have the subscription info for it...  I seem to <BR>
recall subscribing to it once, but it's either been totally quiet or I <BR>
mis-remember.  Anyway, what's the subscription details for it?<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:00:30 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
What are the system requirements for this program?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 has been released. Download details can be found at<BR>
> the Heaven & Earth website:-<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
><BR>
> Stuart Ferris<BR>
> stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
> http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:15:42 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 13 May 2000, Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about <BR>
> size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful <BR>
> work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
<BR>
Both I and Jesse (at least until he got the check from Starships ;-) use<BR>
4x5 ones. They typically run in the thousands of lines per inch; my old<BR>
Wacom is 2540, so they're quite sensitive enough. Heck, I have mine set up<BR>
spanning two 17 inch monitors and haven't noticed any problems with<BR>
sensitivity. I love mine; I have a small desk area, so I actually like the<BR>
fact that my tablet is smaller. OTOH, I've also always been a doodler in<BR>
the margins type, never been one to have a huge drawing.<BR>
<BR>
If you're just playing around, get a 4x5. 6x8 or larger start to get into<BR>
some serious money.<BR>
<BR>
Note there are a lot of off brands I've seen floating about in the PC<BR>
world. My personal recommendation is to go with a Wacom; at least compare<BR>
what you're getting with one. (This is mostly because _anyone_ I've ever<BR>
known who got a tablet got either a CalComp or Wacom one) and CalComp is<BR>
out of the business, though I think some other company took over their<BR>
tablet business, mostly the real high end (24 x48 and suchlike) CAD stuff.<BR>
<BR>
No one I know has been disappointed with it.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:10:06 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
I'm working on a more detailed history for my Ylaven landgrab.  I'm being<BR>
particularly nasty to the new colonists and want to destroy their only last<BR>
piece of 'hi-tech' transportation.  The vehicle in question if a surface to<BR>
orbit reusable shuttle, as would have been designed by Terran's shortly before<BR>
they discovered jump drives (i.e. early TTL9, no gravitics).<BR>
<BR>
What I would like to do is crash it into a shallow sea and scatter the wreckage<BR>
on the sea bed.  But: would it be a practicle design for a such a vehicle, on a<BR>
sublight colony ship, to attempt to land on a body of water?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure myself.  I'm thinking about the Space Shuttle (TL7), advanced two<BR>
TL, and trying to land it on water.<BR>
<BR>
Comments?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:10pm up 6 days, 23:12, 1 user, load average: 0.24, 0.05, 0.02<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:37:43 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
At 06:10 PM 5/13/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>I'm working on a more detailed history for my Ylaven landgrab.  I'm being<BR>
>particularly nasty to the new colonists and want to destroy their only last<BR>
>piece of 'hi-tech' transportation.  The vehicle in question if a surface to<BR>
>orbit reusable shuttle, as would have been designed by Terran's shortly before<BR>
>they discovered jump drives (i.e. early TTL9, no gravitics).<BR>
><BR>
>What I would like to do is crash it into a shallow sea and scatter the <BR>
>wreckage<BR>
>on the sea bed.  But: would it be a practicle design for a such a vehicle, <BR>
>on a<BR>
>sublight colony ship, to attempt to land on a body of water?<BR>
><BR>
>I'm not sure myself.  I'm thinking about the Space Shuttle (TL7), advanced two<BR>
>TL, and trying to land it on water.<BR>
><BR>
>Comments?<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
>6:10pm up 6 days, 23:12, 1 user, load average: 0.24, 0.05, 0.02<BR>
<BR>
Jerry Pournelle's Prince of Mercenaries uses water-landing shuttles, and <BR>
has good descriptions of them landing and taking off.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
      nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"The avalanche has already started.<BR>
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:49:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/13/00 6:20 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Or an illustration of the Free Trader Beowulf text with a ship<BR>
> trailing damage and spewing gasses having been hit....<BR>
<BR>
Oh my, Jesse, please do this one, it's a fantastic idea.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:12:55 +0200<BR>
From: "Thomas Jeenicke" <Thomas_Jeenicke@public.uni-hamburg.de><BR>
Subject: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Hi there!<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering to make Traveller's space really three-dimensional for my<BR>
next campaign.<BR>
Each subsector would be given a "height" of 8 parsecs; I'm not sure what the<BR>
average number of systems in a subsector would be now (G:T doesn't provide<BR>
much tips for 3-D mapping, unfortunately), but it must be higher than in 2-D<BR>
space. A sector would have 4*4*4 subsectors, giving it a height of 32 pc.<BR>
To keep the travel (and thus communication) time between Capital and the<BR>
fringes of the Imperium long - an essential flavor of the Traveller<BR>
universe - I would add 22 sectors on the galactic plane (core- and rimward).<BR>
To increase the height, I would add about 20 sectors above and under the<BR>
plane.<BR>
Of course, this all would make the 3I much bigger. It would now contain<BR>
about 70 sectors (7 or 8 domains). The number of systems must be at least<BR>
50,000. I wonder how much that would change the Imperium's character.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions, comments and - esp. - reports about own experiences with<BR>
3-D mapping are welcomed. Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
Thomas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:57:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
<BR>
This is something that has been worked out before, but I can't find<BR>
my notes, so could someone help me out?<BR>
<BR>
What did we decide the conversion was from High Guard Energy Points<BR>
to megajouls (or megawatts, depending on usage)?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:20:41 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Jeenicke wrote:<BR>
> I'm considering to make Traveller's space really three-dimensional for my<BR>
> next campaign.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
I am currently building such a setting for an upcoming game, but I have chosen<BR>
not to use sectors as such. I keep a XYZ-coordinate for each system and<BR>
calculate distances between the systems using those coordinates.<BR>
<BR>
http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Look in the "Astrography near Earth" section.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, this all would make the 3I much bigger. It would now contain<BR>
> about 70 sectors (7 or 8 domains). The number of systems must be at least<BR>
> 50,000. I wonder how much that would change the Imperium's character.<BR>
<BR>
My setting is kind of experimental, so I have chosen not to use a lot of<BR>
systems. However, a few differences become apparent very quickly:<BR>
<BR>
* 3-D space makes for a lot more possible jump destinations using the same<BR>
maximum jump length as in a 2-D space.<BR>
<BR>
* Doubling the maximum jump length in 3-D will increase the destination colume<BR>
eigth times. Doubling it on a 2-D hex map will increase it about three times.<BR>
<BR>
I have solved these problems by changing the way maximum jump range is<BR>
calculated. See my "House rules" section for details.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:13:13 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 13 May 2000, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> What I would like to do is crash it into a shallow sea and scatter the wreckage<BR>
> on the sea bed.  But: would it be a practicle design for a such a vehicle, on a<BR>
> sublight colony ship, to attempt to land on a body of water?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not sure myself.  I'm thinking about the Space Shuttle (TL7), advanced two<BR>
> TL, and trying to land it on water.<BR>
<BR>
That would actually be the only way to go; remember, there won't be a<BR>
landing strip the first time they go down, so the only guaranteed<BR>
reasonably flat, free of obstructions surface on the planet would be on<BR>
the water.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:57:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
>> >> "blue" the entire hull on a ship. <BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > I'm sure you could, seeing as you could do it on earth today given the<BR>
>> > righ setup. You can get home blusing kits for repairing the blueing on a<BR>
>> > rifle or adding blueing to a knife, and they work in a normal<BR>
>> > atmosphere.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sure, but getting a *uniform* blue isn't easy. I suspect that working in<BR>
>> vacuum, you could blue in *sections* and still get the colors to match.<BR>
><BR>
> There is that, but I figure that if the demand for starship sized even <BR>
> blueing was there someone would find a way. Whether it would be worth <BR>
> it vs a vacuum based process is another matter.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if nothing else, the idea of "blueing" a starship gives more<BR>
options when painting miniatures, sun most lines of paint have decent<BR>
"gunmetal" colors.<BR>
<BR>
>>> However diamond will burn, so don't go too fast in dense high oxygen<BR>
>>> atmospheres :)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes, but the ignition temp is rather high. Traveller ships don't do<BR>
>> much "atmospheric braking" so I doubt their hulls get hot enough.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm. Still I imagine that you'd be a bit annoyed if you got hit by a <BR>
> laser or plasma gun in an atmosphere, though.<BR>
<BR>
Thin as it is, it'd only "burn" where it was it and for maybe a few cm<BR>
around. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:05:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
> the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description),<BR>
<BR>
Wrong. You are viewing the system thru modern eyes, and thus not<BR>
grasping important details.<BR>
<BR>
The *peasants* did *not* have a "fuedal relationship" with the owner of<BR>
their lands (who, incidentally, effectively *owned* them also).<BR>
<BR>
The landowners (and some others) had fuedal relationships with the<BR>
greater lords. And those very definitely *were* consensual<BR>
relationships, with obligations and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
And note that in the later stages, there was many a "freeholder" who<BR>
owned his farm outright and *did* have a more or less fuedal<BR>
relationship with the local lord.<BR>
<BR>
> and their power came from land rather than technical expertise.<BR>
<BR>
Only because land was the source of "power" then. Large armies won<BR>
battles. To support them, you needed a lot of land, land being *worked*.<BR>
<BR>
Aside from some smiths & armoerers, there really *wasn't* any<BR>
"technical expertise" that made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:20:47 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have a "system" of converting GURPS generated NPC's into Classic<BR>
Trqveller stats and skills?<BR>
<BR>
The advantages/disadvantages seem pretty straight forward as a matter of<BR>
just "role playing". But the skills translation really has me baffled<BR>
because I'm not a GURPS player.m I think I can also just do a math<BR>
conversion of the UPP for strength and dex, but does health translate<BR>
straight across for endurance?<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions would be welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
cheryl@travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:26:17 EDT<BR>
From: TOCoons@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Other non-British non-Californian list members<BR>
<BR>
Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Do mine eyes decieve me?  Is there another Utahn on this list?  I had<BR>
>  thought myself the only one.<BR>
>  <BR>
No, Yes, and I've been a faithful lurker and occasional poster for a year or <BR>
two or three. I knew you were from Utah...what part? I live in Provo.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:47:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
<BR>
on 5/13/00 12:42 AM, Steve Daniels at stevedaniels@portcaddo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> First of all, state bars are usually, if not always, authorized<BR>
> by the state.  The terminology varies from place to place.<BR>
<BR>
And who makes up the the State Bars?  Lawyers... [the guild takes care of<BR>
its own]<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> As far your point about what lawyers can base advice on,<BR>
> it would be malpractice to fail to give advice based on legal<BR>
> precedent.  The ethical rules incorporate this.  So, if something<BR>
> is legal to do, giving advice in support of that cannot break<BR>
> an ethical rule.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sort of hoping you have some crazy example from the<BR>
> backwoods of how it could be otherwise.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
A law enforcement official wants to question a suspect.  He asked the<BR>
prosecutor if he can do it in the absence of council.  Legally, yes he can,<BR>
provided the suspect does not invoke his right to council. The prosecutor<BR>
must, under the legal ethics rule advise the officer that the suspect must<BR>
have his lawyer present.  Gotta keep those lawyers employed.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
Well I'm a newbie to this list anyhow.<BR>
    I have recently dug my T:NE books out and have been considering running<BR>
a game at some point for my local group. One problem I have found often with<BR>
the GDW core system, however, is the massive amounts of damage that the<BR>
players can take. Has anyone found a way around this problem?<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:15:16 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
Well, since there's outside interest as well, I'll copy my response to<BR>
Julian here for you as well.<BR>
<BR>
Begin paste<BR>
While the smaller ones like the Pen Partner and other 4x5's are indeed<BR>
useful and better than nothing, the resolution and working area of the<BR>
larger tablets is a real pleasure.  I own a 4x5 PenPartner, but I use my<BR>
cousin's big 9x12 (or whatever the measurement is) whenever I have a chance.<BR>
One of these days I'll grab one of the big ones myself, but in the meantime<BR>
I continue to use the 4x5.  You usually have to zoom in a little more with<BR>
the 4x5's in order to get a smooth translation.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of J-Man<BR>
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 9:36 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Graphics Tables<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Yes, I am curious about this as well...I made the conclusion long ago I<BR>
> would have to get a tablet to do any real drawing.  The problem is money.<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
>  J-Man<BR>
>  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
>  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
>  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 12:01 AM<BR>
> Subject: Graphics Tables<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > I was looking at those tables you spoke of, and I'm wondering about<BR>
> > size.  Is a 4"x5" tablet actually big enough to allow you to do useful<BR>
> > work?  Or does it take something bigger - like 9"x12"?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thanks,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --<BR>
> > jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
> >                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
> >                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> > #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
> >                                -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> > for PGP public-key and<BR>
> > more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> > WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:19:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
There are several different types of Blueing (CS). The stuff they use<BR>
nowadays is Sodium Hydroxide based, which provides a deep rich black finish<BR>
that is fairly tough. There is a Selenium salt based version, as well (Cold<BR>
and Belgian Blueing salts are Selenium-based..the color generally is more<BR>
grey-blue than black), it could be applied to the entire surface of a hull<BR>
with a mop and hot water. Then there is the old Cyanide Blueing which,<BR>
friends, is BLUE, a wonderful deep rich blue (Though a tad dangerous to<BR>
apply). Other common oxide finishes are Phosphate (Parkerizing), and  Straw<BR>
Blueing which is related to Cyanide blueing: the heat required for straw<BR>
finishes is enough to case harden the pieces to about 0.008"...but there is<BR>
almost no practical limit to how big a part is for straw blueing...it is<BR>
applied with a torch and swab.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 2:57 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> >> Hmm, give spacedock, or just working in vacuum, you probably *could*<BR>
> >> >> "blue" the entire hull on a ship.<BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> > I'm sure you could, seeing as you could do it on earth today given<BR>
the<BR>
> >> > righ setup. You can get home blusing kits for repairing the blueing<BR>
on a<BR>
> >> > rifle or adding blueing to a knife, and they work in a normal<BR>
> >> > atmosphere.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Sure, but getting a *uniform* blue isn't easy. I suspect that working<BR>
in<BR>
> >> vacuum, you could blue in *sections* and still get the colors to match.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There is that, but I figure that if the demand for starship sized even<BR>
> > blueing was there someone would find a way. Whether it would be worth<BR>
> > it vs a vacuum based process is another matter.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, if nothing else, the idea of "blueing" a starship gives more<BR>
> options when painting miniatures, sun most lines of paint have decent<BR>
> "gunmetal" colors.<BR>
><BR>
> >>> However diamond will burn, so don't go too fast in dense high oxygen<BR>
> >>> atmospheres :)<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Yes, but the ignition temp is rather high. Traveller ships don't do<BR>
> >> much "atmospheric braking" so I doubt their hulls get hot enough.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hmm. Still I imagine that you'd be a bit annoyed if you got hit by a<BR>
> > laser or plasma gun in an atmosphere, though.<BR>
><BR>
> Thin as it is, it'd only "burn" where it was it and for maybe a few cm<BR>
> around.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:23:47 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
Ssshhhhhh, that's supposed to be a secret ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'<BR>
> ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 10:50 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/13/00 6:20 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Or an illustration of the Free Trader Beowulf text with a ship<BR>
> > trailing damage and spewing gasses having been hit....<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh my, Jesse, please do this one, it's a fantastic idea.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2424<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2425</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/14/00 12:00:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 14 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2425<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
CT Reprints<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish) [TML]<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
"Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:32:51 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity, since this hull is being manufatured in a process that is going all the way down to the molecular level, couldn't the color wanted be determined before and implemented during the manufaturing process at the molecular level?<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:38:42 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice (was Feudal Technocracy)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 5/13/00 12:42 AM, Steve Daniels at stevedaniels@portcaddo.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > First of all, state bars are usually, if not always, authorized<BR>
> > by the state.  The terminology varies from place to place.<BR>
><BR>
> And who makes up the the State Bars?  Lawyers... [the guild takes care of<BR>
> its own]<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As far your point about what lawyers can base advice on,<BR>
> > it would be malpractice to fail to give advice based on legal<BR>
> > precedent.  The ethical rules incorporate this.  So, if something<BR>
> > is legal to do, giving advice in support of that cannot break<BR>
> > an ethical rule.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'm sort of hoping you have some crazy example from the<BR>
> > backwoods of how it could be otherwise.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> A law enforcement official wants to question a suspect.  He asked the<BR>
> prosecutor if he can do it in the absence of council.  Legally, yes he can,<BR>
> provided the suspect does not invoke his right to council.  The prosecutor<BR>
<BR>
> must, under the legal ethics rule advise the officer that the suspect must<BR>
> have his lawyer present.  Gotta keep those lawyers employed.<BR>
<BR>
No offense but this is a bad 'example'<BR>
<BR>
Prosecutors have an obligation to do justice, which ideally,<BR>
and often in my experience, supercedes their individual goals<BR>
of getting lots of convictions.<BR>
<BR>
Cops can ask suspects, and non-suspects, questions all<BR>
day long ("suspect" is essentially a meaningless term  -<BR>
"everyone is a suspect").  Those people can refuse to<BR>
answer.  And they can walk away.  Or they can hire<BR>
a lawyer to be present, at their option.  There is no<BR>
requirement that a lawyer be present.<BR>
<BR>
Things change when a person has been arrested.<BR>
After arrest, the police can only interrogate an arrestee<BR>
after that person has made a knowing and voluntary<BR>
waiver of their right to council and silence (the "Miranda"<BR>
rights).  To do otherwise violates the prohibition against<BR>
coercion by the police as outlined in the Miranda case.<BR>
There, the Supreme Court said that<BR>
Custody + Interrogation = Coercion, and to guard against<BR>
that improper result, extra care needs to be taken to ensure<BR>
that arrestee statements are not the results of coercion,<BR>
thus the requirement for knowing and voluntary waivers<BR>
of rights.<BR>
<BR>
So, after an arrest, the prosecutor must make sure that<BR>
either the arrestee has made a knowing and voluntary<BR>
waiver of his rights to silence and council or that the<BR>
arrestee had a lawyer present during all questioning.<BR>
That is as a matter of law (via the Supreme Court)<BR>
and common-sense (to preserve that ability to use<BR>
evidence gained by questioning so that it isn't<BR>
excluded), _not_ the ethical rules.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
(a lawyer)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:36:32 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 14:05, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The *peasants* did *not* have a "fuedal relationship" with the owner of<BR>
> their lands (who, incidentally, effectively *owned* them also).<BR>
<BR>
That depends quite a lot on exeactly when and where you're talking <BR>
about, BTW. It is also such a big generalisation that it's almost <BR>
useless.<BR>
<BR>
In any given village in England, say, there would be both free and <BR>
unfree peasants, all mixed in together. Being unfree didn't necessarily <BR>
mean you were of lower status or poorer, either. In fact the reeve was <BR>
appointed by the lord from the unfree population, and it was a popular <BR>
(because of the opportunity for profit it gave) position to hold until <BR>
the end of the middle ages, when it became unprofitable.<BR>
<BR>
For an interesting and useful look at medieval villages I recommend <BR>
_Life in the Medieval Village_ by Geis and Geis (IIRC). Actually all <BR>
their "Life in..." books are pretty good.<BR>
<BR>
> The landowners (and some others) had fuedal relationships with the<BR>
> greater lords. And those very definitely *were* consensual<BR>
> relationships, with obligations and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
> <BR>
> And note that in the later stages, there was many a "freeholder" who<BR>
> owned his farm outright and *did* have a more or less fuedal<BR>
> relationship with the local lord.<BR>
<BR>
Not just later stages - in France, for example, holders of free land <BR>
were common throughout the period. It's often claimed that they faded <BR>
away as time went on, but when you look at things they were always <BR>
"fading away" but were always common enough to be noticeable, which <BR>
suggests (to me anyway) that some unfree land tended to revert to being <BR>
held directly by its owner, rather than from someone else.<BR>
<BR>
> > and their power came from land rather than technical expertise.<BR>
> <BR>
> Only because land was the source of "power" then. Large armies won<BR>
> battles. To support them, you needed a lot of land, land being *worked*.<BR>
> <BR>
> Aside from some smiths & armoerers, there really *wasn't* any<BR>
> "technical expertise" that made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
In the later middle ages wool weaving and dyeing expertise was very <BR>
important. It's why the flanders cities become so weathly and powerful. <BR>
However that was at the time when the old feudal states were <BR>
disappearing in favour of absolute monarchies.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:41:51 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> > Well the problem is two-fold: The medieval feudal lords did not rule with<BR>
> > the consent of the governed (as is suggested by the description),<BR>
> <BR>
> Wrong. You are viewing the system thru modern eyes, and thus not<BR>
> grasping important details.<BR>
<BR>
*sigh* The issue was whether medieval feudalism was an appropriate <BR>
model for FT. So *yes* I'm looking at it through modern eyes. <BR>
That's the whole point of the exercise. I *don't* see any reason to get <BR>
in a long argument over the details of the medieval manor, which<BR>
we all agree upon. But I consider the peasantry part of "the governed," <BR>
and you've given me no reason to think this is flat-out "wrong." Not<BR>
that it matters as far as our topic is concerned...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and go back and look at my original post on FT, <BR>
where I said that feudalism could be thought of "as a mutual<BR>
exchange of services."<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:47:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 12:57, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> This is something that has been worked out before, but I can't find<BR>
> my notes, so could someone help me out?<BR>
> <BR>
> What did we decide the conversion was from High Guard Energy Points<BR>
> to megajouls (or megawatts, depending on usage)?<BR>
<BR>
According to the original Striker it's 250MW.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:47:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 22:48, Dave Pullen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well I'm a newbie to this list anyhow.<BR>
>     I have recently dug my T:NE books out and have been considering<BR>
>     running<BR>
> a game at some point for my local group. One problem I have found often<BR>
> with the GDW core system, however, is the massive amounts of damage that<BR>
> the players can take. Has anyone found a way around this problem?<BR>
<BR>
Use D10s instead of D6s for damage. Don't forget to use all those rules <BR>
for knockdown (which causes panic checks - enforce that!), stunning and <BR>
unconciousness. A serious wound will almost certainly cause blackouts <BR>
if you start trying to run around with one (and makes the limb/location <BR>
in question useless). Also remember the rule for outstanding hits <BR>
(double damage) and quick kills. All these makes PCs hard to kill, but <BR>
not that hard to put down, and often out of action.<BR>
<BR>
If you're still not happy make the quick kill rule work like in TW:2000 <BR>
(it steps the wound level in that location up one level, eg from none <BR>
to slight, and then you put the rolled damage on top), rather than just <BR>
doubling damage. If this still isn't enough, treat the PCs like NPCs - <BR>
kill 'em if they take a "quick kill" result.<BR>
<BR>
BTW if you use D10s for damage I recommend comparing damage to AGLx2 <BR>
for knockdown purposes, otherwise just about anything will knock even <BR>
an agile character down.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:59:52 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
As it says on the main page: Win9x or NT.<BR>
Also IE4.0 or greater.  And you have to get<BR>
some files from TwistedPixel.<BR>
<BR>
It runs very slow for me (with a Celeron at 400 and 128mb ram).<BR>
The results are great and it will do a lot, though I have a lot<BR>
of quibbles about the interface and am finding several bugs.<BR>
<BR>
Where do you want bug reports, Stuart?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
shimmer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What are the system requirements for this program?<BR>
><BR>
> Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 has been released. Download details can be found at<BR>
> > the Heaven & Earth website:-<BR>
> ><BR>
> > http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Stuart Ferris<BR>
> > stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
> > http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> -------------------------<BR>
> Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
><BR>
> dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
> http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:56:24 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
I downloaded and installed the program today (along with that Twisted Pixel<BR>
thingie). However, when I try to start the program, I get a small window<BR>
telling me "Unexpected error."<BR>
<BR>
Has this happened to anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
I run the program on a W98 machine, with 64MB RAM and a 16MB RAM video card.<BR>
That should be enough, or am I mistaken?<BR>
<BR>
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+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:07:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
Two systems seem to have been favoured, replace d6 with d10 fro damage or<BR>
halve hits.  I have experimented with both and now use the half basic hits.<BR>
It evens things up a lot and means we don't need hundreds of d10.<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
- --------Original post--------<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
Well I'm a newbie to this list anyhow.<BR>
    I have recently dug my T:NE books out and have been considering running<BR>
a game at some point for my local group. One problem I have found often with<BR>
the GDW core system, however, is the massive amounts of damage that the<BR>
players can take. Has anyone found a way around this problem?<BR>
- ---------end original---------------<BR>
<BR>
BTW there is another mailing list dedicated just to Traveller TNE, it may be<BR>
useful to sign up for that one as well..  If you want details see my<BR>
Traveller Links page on my website (URL Below). My website also has some<BR>
more house rules and other stuff, feel free to steal(borrow) at will.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:21:09 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone seen or have the reprints of CT yet?  Just curious if they<BR>
are worth the effort?  <BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:24:33 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I downloaded and installed the program today (along with that Twisted Pixel<BR>
> thingie). However, when I try to start the program, I get a small window<BR>
> telling me "Unexpected error."<BR>
><BR>
> Has this happened to anyone else?<BR>
><BR>
> I run the program on a W98 machine, with 64MB RAM and a 16MB RAM video card. That<BR>
> should be enough, or am I mistaken?<BR>
<BR>
Your video card should be irrelevant for the most part.<BR>
<BR>
I saw a runtime error at one point. I'm not a programmer<BR>
but I've done lots of alpha and beta testing.  I suspect it<BR>
may have a memory leak, or something like that.  It sure<BR>
seems to be a resource hog, which seems at odd with the<BR>
output.<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of help files, which are actually better read<BR>
in a web browser than through the unresizeable help window.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:25:20 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Oh my yes yes yes yes.  A thousand times yes.<BR>
(That reminds me, I have to order 2 more).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
adsr wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone seen or have the reprints of CT yet?  Just curious if they<BR>
> are worth the effort?<BR>
><BR>
> Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:02:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb <BR>
and its a definite hog <BR>
<BR>
I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this <BR>
on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:57:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
It's odd actually, but the only TNE campaign I ever ran (18 months or so ago<BR>
now) I was struggling to *avoid* killing the players...  admittedly half of<BR>
them weren't wearing armour, and they were the ones that were really<BR>
suffering, and they were in some large firefights rather than simple single<BR>
shots with a revolver situations, but people were getting serious wounds and<BR>
blacking out with regularity.<BR>
<BR>
And I was simply using the standard rules from the book<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Peter <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
To: Trav TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 14 May 2000 00:13<BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Two systems seem to have been favoured, replace d6 with d10 fro damage or<BR>
>halve hits.  I have experimented with both and now use the half basic hits.<BR>
>It evens things up a lot and means we don't need hundreds of d10.<BR>
><BR>
>Welcome to the TML.<BR>
><BR>
>--------Original post--------<BR>
>Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:48:28 +0100<BR>
>From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
>Subject: A newbie posts<BR>
><BR>
>Well I'm a newbie to this list anyhow.<BR>
>    I have recently dug my T:NE books out and have been considering running<BR>
>a game at some point for my local group. One problem I have found often<BR>
with<BR>
>the GDW core system, however, is the massive amounts of damage that the<BR>
>players can take. Has anyone found a way around this problem?<BR>
>---------end original---------------<BR>
><BR>
>BTW there is another mailing list dedicated just to Traveller TNE, it may<BR>
be<BR>
>useful to sign up for that one as well..  If you want details see my<BR>
>Traveller Links page on my website (URL Below). My website also has some<BR>
>more house rules and other stuff, feel free to steal(borrow) at will.<BR>
><BR>
>Peter<BR>
>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
>peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
>p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
><BR>
>IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
>vi-<BR>
>     And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
><BR>
>I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
>shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the<BR>
Tannhauser<BR>
>gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
>die."<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:00:05 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: adsr <adsr@mato.com><BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone seen or have the reprints of CT yet?  Just curious if they<BR>
>are worth the effort?<BR>
><BR>
>Andy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Had them for a few weeks now. Very nice, especially as you have all the<BR>
chargen rules in one place. Definitely worth getting, even if you have the<BR>
originals.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:13:37 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
> and its a definite hog<BR>
><BR>
> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
reading these.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:20:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth V1.0.0 released<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/13/00 3:59 PM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Where do you want bug reports, Stuart?<BR>
<BR>
Probably at WBDMailingList@egroups.com or to him personally.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:47:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Evolution and the Ancient Diaspora of Humans (longish) [TML]<BR>
<BR>
David,<BR>
You wrote :-<BR>
> How does PNA pave over UV damage?  PNA can be photolysed too.<BR>
> <BR>
My (possibly mistaken) impression was that it was somewhat more<BR>
resistant to UV than DNA.<BR>
Obviously most compounds are amenable to UV photolysis if you pump<BR>
enough energy in.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, the amount of UV on the early Earth isn't known.  Nor<BR>
> is the niche that it started in.  If it started in some deep<BR>
> sea thermal system, UV wouldn't be much of a problem.<BR>
Yes, it's very difficult to quantify the changes in the sun's output<BR>
with time, let alone in the UV spectrum.<BR>
Yes, we don't know where our remote ancestors originated.<BR>
These points were not stated earlier in the thread as they were assumed<BR>
to be obvious.<BR>
<BR>
The whole point of the discussion was that Vland was and is not Earth.<BR>
Life started there and flourished somehow despite some potentially<BR>
adverse factors - a brighter sun, and a thinner atmosphere, among other<BR>
things.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions you might have that would make Vland's 'biochemical back<BR>
story' more robust would be most welcome.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:09:44 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
What happens to Electrostatic Armour in close formation? do the tanks/troopers<BR>
zap each other ?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Basically the low power field is there as a sensor - when it gets<BR>
> >> disrupted by an object entering it the ESA system dicharges some nice<BR>
> >> big HPGs through the field, vapourising the offending projectile. Kinda<BR>
> >> like a big lightning gun effect. In game terms it adds AV vs certain<BR>
> >> types of attack. It gets full value vs plasma/fusion attacks, and HEAP<BR>
> >> rounds because the low mass of the jet is easy to break up, and it gets<BR>
> >> 1/2AV vs KEAP rounds (even though they are what ESAs are supposed to be<BR>
> >> working against).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I don't remember hearing about this Electrostatic Armour (?) before.  I<BR>
> don't<BR>
> >have any of the FFS books.  Is it mentioned anywhere else?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >From what you are saying here, I take it that this stuff is man-portable.<BR>
><BR>
> What GTL would this be? Does it not exist in GT? It would seem to be an<BR>
> absolutely mandatory device for BD troops and even just normal infantry.<BR>
><BR>
> Terry C<BR>
> All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
> Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:06:43 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
in your own starship.<BR>
<BR>
...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
<BR>
http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
P.S. You'll probably want your map of the Spinward Marches handy.<BR>
I have the actual sector data online if you want to eyeball the<BR>
data used.<BR>
<BR>
R<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:33:32 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Jens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I downloaded and installed the program today (along with that Twisted Pixel<BR>
thingie). However, when I try to start the program, I get a small window<BR>
telling me "Unexpected error."<BR>
<BR>
Has this happened to anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
I run the program on a W98 machine, with 64MB RAM and a 16MB RAM video card.<BR>
That should be enough, or am I mistaken?<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
I have experienced the same thing on a win98 laptop with a PII 233 and 64 megs of ram.  No clue what the error means.<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:44:15 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
> Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
> feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
> in your own starship.<BR>
> <BR>
> ...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
> <BR>
> http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> P.S. You'll probably want your map of the Spinward Marches handy.<BR>
> I have the actual sector data online if you want to eyeball the<BR>
> data used.<BR>
> <BR>
> R<BR>
> <BR>
Rob  <BR>
<BR>
I got in but it would not let me jump anywhere, just took me back <BR>
to the log in screen.  Oh check your text it did not like " ' " as a <BR>
symbol, insted it gave me %27<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thats if for now<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:54:13 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Splendid!  I've been happily jumping around the marches and making money.  This could be a great little gaming tool for GM's who want to use it.  <BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:47:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone have a "system" of converting GURPS generated NPC's into Classic<BR>
> Trqveller stats and skills?<BR>
> The advantages/disadvantages seem pretty straight forward as a matter of<BR>
> just "role playing". But the skills translation really has me baffled<BR>
> because I'm not a GURPS player.m I think I can also just do a math<BR>
> conversion of the UPP for strength and dex, but does health translate<BR>
> straight across for endurance?<BR>
> Any suggestions would be welcome.<BR>
<BR>
My suggestion would be to simply use the system for converting<BR>
Traveller characters into GURPS charecters given at the back<BR>
of GURPS Traveller 2nd ed in reverse. <BR>
<BR>
So if a CT character with Pilot Skill 1 would convert into<BR>
a GURPS charecter with 4 points in Pilot (and a few more<BR>
points in related skills) than a GURPS generated NPC with<BR>
4 points in Pilot would logically covert to a CT charecter<BR>
with Pilot-1.<BR>
<BR>
This approach will, however, tend to reduce the effectiveness<BR>
of point optimized GURPS charecters with high stats and a <BR>
few points each in a number of skills.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:44:12 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Jeenicke schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi there!<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
 <BR>
> I'm considering to make Traveller's space really three-dimensional for my<BR>
> next campaign.<BR>
> Each subsector would be given a "height" of 8 parsecs; I'm not sure what the<BR>
> average number of systems in a subsector would be now (G:T doesn't provide<BR>
> much tips for 3-D mapping, unfortunately),<BR>
<BR>
There is a sidebar in GT:FI that discusses the problem briefly.<BR>
<BR>
> but it must be higher than in 2-D<BR>
> space. A sector would have 4*4*4 subsectors, giving it a height of 32 pc.<BR>
<BR>
And making it a quadre of 64 subsectors, which computes down to 40,960<BR>
cubic parsecs. That is much larger than <BR>
old Traveller 2D subsectors, which have 1,280 "square parsecs". Given an<BR>
average stellar density of 33%, this would mean the average 3D sector<BR>
has 13,653 star systems, in contrast to about 400 in 2D. <BR>
<BR>
When I thought about that problem just a year or so ago, I used a<BR>
similar approach:<BR>
A subsector measuring 8 parsecs wide, 10 parsecs long and 8 parsecs<BR>
high. But for the sectors, I used a trick:<BR>
making them 2*2*4 subsectors. A Domain would have been 4 sectors,<BR>
arranged in a square block (i.e. SM spinward of Deneb, but north of<BR>
Trojan Reach, and the latter being spinward of Reft Sector.<BR>
<BR>
I even made up a ASCII map portraying Charted Space, including the<BR>
Lesser, Great and Windhorn Refts (which had grown a lot in 3D). <BR>
<BR>
> To keep the travel (and thus communication) time between Capital and the<BR>
> fringes of the Imperium long - an essential flavor of the Traveller<BR>
> universe - I would add 22 sectors on the galactic plane (core- and rimward).<BR>
> To increase the height, I would add about 20 sectors above and under the<BR>
> plane.<BR>
<BR>
Puhh! This makes the Imperium quite large...<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, this all would make the 3I much bigger. It would now contain<BR>
> about 70 sectors (7 or 8 domains). The number of systems must be at least<BR>
> 50,000. I wonder how much that would change the Imperium's character.<BR>
<BR>
I am afraid you miscomputed here. Such an Imperium would have at least<BR>
70*40,960 worlds, which is 2,867,200 systems. Even if you reduce stellar<BR>
density to about 10%, this would be about one million stars. 3D is just<BR>
like Niven's Ringworld: One can easily forget the dimensions.<BR>
 <BR>
> Any suggestions, comments and - esp. - reports about own experiences with<BR>
> 3-D mapping are welcomed. Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
There is one thing about 3D mapping that I discovered when I made up a<BR>
subsector for my own 3D approach: Jump routes. In 2D, a simple look at<BR>
the map tells you zhow to get anywhere on the map with your jump-1 or<BR>
jump-2 etc ship. But in 3D, it is not that simple at all. Now imagine<BR>
what to do with longer trade routes, including several systems along the<BR>
way!<BR>
<BR>
I thought about that problem quite a long time, and finally I decided to<BR>
use "realistic feel" explanation for the existing 2D maps: In short,<BR>
jump space itself is arranged in a crumpled table cloth structure, so<BR>
the stars are actually arranged in 3D, but displayed as 2D on the maps<BR>
because they merely show th  Jump Space Structure that all ships must<BR>
follow. (A more detailed explanation can be found at Freelance<BR>
Traveller. See http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller and follow the<BR>
links to the "Lecture Hall and Linbrary")<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2425<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 14 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2426<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: GURPS to CT conversion<BR>
CT Reprints<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
OT: Graphics Tables<BR>
RE: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:16:21 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
You can get the full press announcement at www.playnet.com,<BR>
but I've snipped it to the relevant portions.<BR>
<BR>
PLAYNET, INC. ANNOUNCES ADDITIONAL INTERNET GAME PROJECTS<BR>
<BR>
BEDFORD, TEXAS May 11, 2000<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
CRS [Cornered Rat Software, a division of Playnet] also acquired the<BR>
exclusive license to develop and publish the online massively<BR>
multi-player<BR>
game version for the book-based Sci-Fi role-playing game known<BR>
worldwide as Traveller.  The Traveller rule set, which was originally<BR>
created by Marc Miller in the late 1970s, has been played worldwide<BR>
by millions of avid fans for more than two decades.<BR>
<BR>
With these projects, CRS is taking the development of massively<BR>
multiplayer<BR>
RPG's to a higher level with their multiple-platform design and<BR>
implementation<BR>
of an assortment of never-before-seen features for both the Traveller<BR>
universe and the huge fantasy world within Kharduum.   Both titles will<BR>
<BR>
employ the state of the art Unity 3D Engine developed by Cornered Rat<BR>
Software which allows simultaneous game play in three separate<BR>
geophysical<BR>
dimensions  land, sea and air.<BR>
- -----------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Yes, listers, work is progressing on an online, massively multiplayer<BR>
Traveller!<BR>
<BR>
I should first tell you that I'm biased.  I know all the guys at<BR>
Cornered Rat Software and Playnet.  And I like online role-playing<BR>
games. And since these games have existed, I've thought Traveller<BR>
would be a natural match.  Its the game I want to play.  So, I<BR>
introduced Playnet/CRS to Mr. Miller.<BR>
<BR>
The CRS guys created WarBirds, one of the first successful<BR>
massively multiplayer games on the internet.  It was won<BR>
numerous awards over its 5+ years on the net and  has been<BR>
continously refined and developed over those years.  A few years<BR>
ago, they started prelimary development of a sci-fi online game<BR>
that would involve starship combat and trading, not too many<BR>
shades from the feel of Traveller.  That effort was halted due to<BR>
change of corporate management and priorities, etc.  But since<BR>
I knew that they had an interest in a sci-fi online game, I figured<BR>
they might be interested in Traveller.  It turns out they are all<BR>
Traveller fans and have played it to varying degrees.<BR>
<BR>
If an online Traveller game is to be successful, I think these guys<BR>
have the best chance of making it so.  Just as Traveller has a<BR>
focus on known science and reasonable extrapolations, these<BR>
guys demand exacting and precise attention to detail, which is<BR>
evidenced by their physics modelling in WarBirds and the<BR>
soon forthcoming WorldWar II Online.  They are very serious<BR>
gearheads, with all sorts of engineering degrees amongst them.<BR>
<BR>
Last month I was in their offices and was impressed by something<BR>
I saw.  In every office, on every desk, was CT material.  Little<BR>
Black Books everywhere!  I was tempted to photocopy all the<BR>
rare ones, some I've never seen in person, but I remembered that<BR>
the Reprints have just started.<BR>
<BR>
www.playnet.com<BR>
www.corneredrat.com<BR>
www.wwiionline.com<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:21:40 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS to CT conversion<BR>
<BR>
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
> This approach will, however, tend to reduce the effectiveness<BR>
> of point optimized GURPS charecters with high stats and a <BR>
> few points each in a number of skills.<BR>
<BR>
You say this like it's a bad thing ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:30:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com><BR>
Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
    After a few weeks of never getting around to ordering this book, I<BR>
happened across a copy in a store (very pleasant surprise, I thought it was<BR>
Direct-Order Only)and couldn't help buying it.  I haven't been keeping up<BR>
with the list lately so I assume others have already given sufficient<BR>
reviews, but here's my take anyway:<BR>
<BR>
1) the cover: 100% Classic Traveller.  The ultimate in class and simplicity.<BR>
Not to exaggerate, but seeing the CT font, style, and layout almost made me<BR>
misty.<BR>
<BR>
2) the contents: revised version of books 1-3 & 5, which is nice, since I<BR>
only ever had the first editions.  Hearing about this project, I thought I<BR>
wouldn't like the landscape format, but it works fine in the actual book.  I<BR>
haven't tried to store it on a shelf yet, which may be awkward, but it's<BR>
very easy to read.<BR>
<BR>
3) extras: some interesting trivia, similar to Loren's sidebars in G:T.  One<BR>
quibble -- Marc makes a point of saying that the CT product list is THE<BR>
definitive Traveller Canon, but The Traveller Adventure isn't listed.<BR>
Presumably it was just overlooked since it doesn't really fit into any of<BR>
the categories, but as it stands now it looks like my all-time favorite<BR>
Traveller scenario has been officially de-Canoned!<BR>
<BR>
Recommendation: If you played CT and already have most/all of these books:<BR>
you should still buy this if you have the money, because it puts everything<BR>
in one handy package, and will save further wear on your<BR>
sentimental-if-not-cash-value originals.  If you don't have the originals:<BR>
Buy This Book.  $28 is a extremely fair price for the amount of material you<BR>
get (cover price on the originals was way higher -- 20 years ago!), and even<BR>
if you only play G:T it's still well worthwhile to see how the concepts of<BR>
the game originated and developed.  Grade: A+<BR>
<BR>
I realize that this isn't likely to spark a genuine revival for a long-dead<BR>
game, but I still hope it sells well for Marc, and I'm very much looking<BR>
forward to the other books in the series.<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:49:30 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
>> and its a definite hog<BR>
>><BR>
>> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
>> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
>> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
Bloo wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
>reading these.<BR>
<BR>
Nothings broken, the program is undertaking a lot of calculations and<BR>
shifting a lot of information around. Generating one system with all output<BR>
options will generate about 1Mb of information on that single system.<BR>
<BR>
6 hours for that size of sector sounds actually pretty good compared to the<BR>
beta testing results. I won't make any apologies for the speed of the<BR>
program, the output speaks for itself.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:03:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
>Jens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I downloaded and installed the program today (along with that Twisted Pixel<BR>
>thingie). However, when I try to start the program, I get a small window<BR>
>telling me "Unexpected error."<BR>
<BR>
Whilst the majority of users are able to run H&E fine there appear to be an<BR>
isolated few who have a problem. I don't know what is causing the problem<BR>
although you could try the following:-<BR>
<BR>
1) You are using IE and have the SHDOCVW.DLL installed?<BR>
2) Try deleting the options.sav file in the program folder.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:05:39 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
>> and its a definite hog<BR>
>><BR>
>> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
>> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
>> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
Bloo wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>>It runs very slow for me (with a Celeron at 400 and 128mb ram).<BR>
>>The results are great and it will do a lot, though I have a lot<BR>
>>of quibbles about the interface and am finding several bugs.<BR>
<BR>
>>Where do you want bug reports, Stuart?<BR>
<BR>
>Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
>reading these.<BR>
<BR>
Nothings broken, the program is undertaking a lot of calculations and<BR>
shifting a lot of information around. Generating one system with all output<BR>
options will generate about 1Mb of information on that single system.<BR>
<BR>
The speed hit is due to the generation of the output files.<BR>
<BR>
6 hours for that size of sector sounds actually pretty good compared to the<BR>
beta testing results. I won't make any apologies for the speed of the<BR>
program, the output speaks for itself.<BR>
<BR>
Any bugs or suggestions can be mailed directly to myself, although I'd<BR>
suggest joining the http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/WBDMailingList which is<BR>
an open forum for the program.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:05:44 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
>> and its a definite hog<BR>
>><BR>
>> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
>> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
>> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
Bloo wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>>It runs very slow for me (with a Celeron at 400 and 128mb ram).<BR>
>>The results are great and it will do a lot, though I have a lot<BR>
>>of quibbles about the interface and am finding several bugs.<BR>
<BR>
>>Where do you want bug reports, Stuart?<BR>
<BR>
>Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
>reading these.<BR>
<BR>
Nothings broken, the program is undertaking a lot of calculations and<BR>
shifting a lot of information around. Generating one system with all output<BR>
options will generate about 1Mb of information on that single system.<BR>
<BR>
The speed hit is due to the generation of the output files.<BR>
<BR>
6 hours for that size of sector sounds actually pretty good compared to the<BR>
beta testing results. I won't make any apologies for the speed of the<BR>
program, the output speaks for itself.<BR>
<BR>
Any bugs or suggestions can be mailed directly to myself, although I'd<BR>
suggest joining the http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/WBDMailingList which is<BR>
an open forum for the program.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:18:39 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nothings broken, the program is undertaking a lot of calculations and<BR>
> shifting a lot of information around. Generating one system with all output<BR>
> options will generate about 1Mb of information on that single system.<BR>
<BR>
I'll say again, "Ouch!"  I guess I just don't appreciate the<BR>
amount of calculating going on.<BR>
<BR>
> Any bugs or suggestions can be mailed directly to myself, although I'd<BR>
> suggest joining the http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/WBDMailingList which is<BR>
> an open forum for the program.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, but I'm trying to cut down the number of lists I'm on.<BR>
I'll email you directly.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:20:53 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: Graphics Tables<BR>
<BR>
At 10:15 AM 5/13/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Note there are a lot of off brands I've seen floating about in the PC<BR>
>world. My personal recommendation is to go with a Wacom; at least compare<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, Wacom seems to be the best bet.  Does anyone have any comments on the <BR>
graphire vs. the intuos?  the intuos seems to be the more professional one, <BR>
but OTOH the graphire is half the price (for 4x5s)... the intuos has 1024 <BR>
levels of pressure vs. the graphire's 512, and the intuos has 2540 lines <BR>
per inch vs. 1015 for the graphire.  I'm wondering though how much of a <BR>
difference that really makes.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:27:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
Peter wrote<BR>
<BR>
>Two systems seem to have been favoured, replace d6 with d10 <BR>
>fro damage <BR>
<BR>
d10 fro damage? Must be a pretty big 'fro! :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:27:47 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
This D10s idea sounds like it could work fine, thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Use D10s instead of D6s for damage. Don't forget to use all those rules <BR>
> for knockdown (which causes panic checks - enforce that!), stunning and <BR>
> unconciousness. A serious wound will almost certainly cause blackouts <BR>
> if you start trying to run around with one (and makes the limb/location <BR>
> in question useless). Also remember the rule for outstanding hits <BR>
> (double damage) and quick kills. All these makes PCs hard to kill, but <BR>
> not that hard to put down, and often out of action.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you're still not happy make the quick kill rule work like in TW:2000 <BR>
> (it steps the wound level in that location up one level, eg from none <BR>
> to slight, and then you put the rolled damage on top), rather than just <BR>
> doubling damage. If this still isn't enough, treat the PCs like NPCs - <BR>
> kill 'em if they take a "quick kill" result.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW if you use D10s for damage I recommend comparing damage to AGLx2 <BR>
> for knockdown purposes, otherwise just about anything will knock even <BR>
> an agile character down.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:34:30 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 PM 5/13/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
>feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
>in your own starship.<BR>
><BR>
>...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
><BR>
>http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
<BR>
well, in about 5 min I went from 10kCr to 2.3MCr....   A run from Regina to <BR>
Efate and back<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:07:56 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Hey that's cool!  Lots of work went into it obviously.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Juliean Galak" <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:34 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:06 PM 5/13/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
> >feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
> >in your own starship.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
><BR>
> well, in about 5 min I went from 10kCr to 2.3MCr....   A run from Regina<BR>
to<BR>
> Efate and back<BR>
><BR>
>            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
>                           defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
>                                               -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
>                                -- Albert Einstein<BR>
> for PGP public-key and<BR>
> more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
> WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:10:57 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Bloo replied:<BR>
>Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
>> and its a definite hog<BR>
>><BR>
>> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
>> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
>> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
>Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
>reading these.<BR>
<BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
Chaps, it ain't broke. Just think of what it is doing....<BR>
<BR>
It is generating the wbh factsheet for every world in the system, and a <BR>
traveller style map for each as well. If you consider what it is doing to<BR>
generate this information, and how long it took you to do it in the past<BR>
by pencil and paper, the 6 hours is nothing. Then it combines it all and<BR>
compresses it into a new file to save precious hard disk space.<BR>
<BR>
Thing is people expect computers to do things instantaneously. The amount<BR>
of work going into what is outputted really is enormous. I for one am<BR>
quite willing to generate the sector I need off line, overnight, with me tucked<BR>
up in bed, and lo and behold... takes no time at all.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, Trojan Reaches took 16 hours on my pitiful P200/64Mb, but since I've<BR>
seen what this program can do right from it's infancy, I really am quite happy to<BR>
let it be a hog, and thank Stuart for giving me the power. All in all, in the 18 months<BR>
I've been trying out WBD/H&E I've done months of processing, and beleive me, it has<BR>
got more efficient over time. <BR>
<BR>
Also, do you realise that you both will have *exactly* the same information,<BR>
provided you have the same options set, and are looking at the same dataset.<BR>
Helpful for players of campaigns which have detailed info available to the characters,<BR>
since research can be done away from the gaming session, at player's own homes, <BR>
and players can be more informed of the universe their characters grew up in. And it<BR>
is consistent from one PC to the next. That is worth EVERYTHING in my book!<BR>
<BR>
There is no pleasing some people!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:41:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
> feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
> in your own starship.<BR>
> ...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
<BR>
Very nice so far.<BR>
<BR>
How about keeping track of the date and using this info to<BR>
demand mortgage payments and annual maintenance fees.<BR>
How about including the possibility of misjumps which seem<BR>
to be excluded now.<BR>
<BR>
In your system all large cargos are 10 tons, all minor<BR>
cargos are 5 tons and all incidental cargos are one ton.<BR>
How about changing these all to 1d6 times these base cargo<BR>
sizes per the Traveller rules.<BR>
<BR>
Currently you can jump your ship to an empty hex using up<BR>
all your fuel and still be able to jump out. I suggest<BR>
removing this feature & allowing ship crew to be trapped<BR>
(presumably to dies) when they run out of fuel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:08:28 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 13 May 2000, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> On Sat, 13 May 2000, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>  <BR>
> > What I would like to do is crash it into a shallow sea and scatter the wreckage<BR>
> > on the sea bed.  But: would it be a practicle design for a such a vehicle, on a<BR>
> > sublight colony ship, to attempt to land on a body of water?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm not sure myself.  I'm thinking about the Space Shuttle (TL7), advanced two<BR>
> > TL, and trying to land it on water.<BR>
> <BR>
> That would actually be the only way to go; remember, there won't be a<BR>
> landing strip the first time they go down, so the only guaranteed<BR>
> reasonably flat, free of obstructions surface on the planet would be on<BR>
> the water.<BR>
<BR>
In the sea it is then.  Any idea how big the body of water would need to be for<BR>
such a landing?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
11:08am up 7 days, 16:10, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:51:08 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> Splendid!  I've been happily jumping around the marches and making money. <BR>
> This could be a great little gaming tool for GM's who want to use it.  <BR>
<BR>
I am jumping around, but I have a small problem. The dropdown boxes for<BR>
destination selection are gray with gray text written on them (ie I have to<BR>
choose my destination randomly).<BR>
<BR>
If you could add a ... around the dropdown boxes<BR>
and the button, I would be very happy.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:57:12 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> There is one thing about 3D mapping that I discovered when I made up a<BR>
> subsector for my own 3D approach: Jump routes. In 2D, a simple look at<BR>
> the map tells you zhow to get anywhere on the map with your jump-1 or<BR>
> jump-2 etc ship. But in 3D, it is not that simple at all. Now imagine<BR>
> what to do with longer trade routes, including several systems along the<BR>
> way!<BR>
<BR>
I actually managed to solve this problem!<BR>
<BR>
http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/tl9-jumps.jpg<BR>
<BR>
The map contains all the jump routes possible using my house rules* for 3-D<BR>
jumpspace. By adding some color coding to a map like this, it will be very<BR>
readable.<BR>
<BR>
Note that stars that actually are physically close get quite far apart using<BR>
this system. Alpha Canis Minoris (Sirius) is actually about 8.6 light years<BR>
from Sol, but the jump routes make it impossible to get there quickly. What is<BR>
essentially a rift is blocking the way, forcing Travellers to jump around it.<BR>
<BR>
* A single jump can cover (4+jump rating) light years. A double jump (jumping<BR>
to empty space, then onwards to a star) can cover 150% of this in total. Longer<BR>
jumps are not possible. For more details, see my house rules page<BR>
( http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/houserules.html )<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
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+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:05:45 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Musings on superdense metals<BR>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:54:58 -0500<BR>
<BR>
Ultimate strength = where the metal breaks<BR>
Yield strength = where the metal starts to deform plastically.<BR>
<BR>
Metals will deform elastically at the beginning.  If you take<BR>
the load off, they will return to their original shape.  Past<BR>
the yield strength, the metal begins to deform elastically,<BR>
which means they don't recover the deformation (except for a<BR>
little bit).<BR>
<BR>
In addition to oxide coatings, metals can actually have the<BR>
surface made into a different alloy than the main body of the<BR>
metal.  This is usually done to build a very hard but brittle<BR>
surface on a strong, but flexible part.=<BR>
<BR>
==============<BR>
<BR>
Good points.  Putting a hard surface on a plate is called face hardening.  <BR>
Its been done for a long time, especially for armor on navy ships.  One of <BR>
the more common methods is to chill the surface faster than the body of the <BR>
casting.  We have a problem with this at US Pipe.  Larger fittings (ie. <BR>
greater than 48 inches ID) are set outside to finish cooling after being <BR>
broken out of their molds.  If it rains, the fittings become face hardened, <BR>
sometimes enough to break drill bits used to put bolt holes in the flanges.  <BR>
Ever seen a three inch bit break off?  Can you say run for the door?  I knew <BR>
you could.<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:10:17 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Peter wrote<BR>
><BR>
> >Two systems seem to have been favoured, replace d6 with d10<BR>
> >fro damage<BR>
><BR>
> d10 fro damage? Must be a pretty big 'fro! :)<BR>
<BR>
You singed my hair! die! <sound of RP-Z on autofire...><BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:54:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
On 05/13/00 at 05:21 PM,  "adsr" <adsr@mato.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone seen or have the reprints of CT yet?  Just curious if they are<BR>
>worth the effort?  <BR>
<BR>
Yes and yes. <g><BR>
<BR>
The quality of the production is good.  There are a few typos, but I<BR>
haven't seen anything major to detract from the quality of the book.<BR>
I've put my cherished Black Box and my duplicates away for safe<BR>
keeping and have been just using the Big Black Book since I got it.<BR>
It's nice having all 8 of the books in one place, and for me at<BR>
least having something other than frist verisons to refer to.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't sure I'd like the landscape layout, but frankly I like it a<BR>
lot.  It lets you see twice as much of the material before having to<BR>
turn a page and that can come in handy.  Being 22"...um, this is<BR>
Traveller so we have to use metric <g>...56 cm wide it takes up a<BR>
lot of desk space when laid open, but I've found it works.  <BR>
<BR>
The contents *are* CT, so if you're an oldtime Traveller you know<BR>
what to expect.  You won't be disappointed.<BR>
<BR>
If you've come to Traveller since CT went out of print then, I'd<BR>
say, you're in for a treat.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    ps Marc you can send the check to...<g><BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2426<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2427</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/14/00 7:55:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 14 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2427<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2426<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
Re: TML Elders<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
Peasants, Armorers and Lords Oh No<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:19:25 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 10:47 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> What did we decide the conversion was from High Guard Energy Points<BR>
>> to megajouls (or megawatts, depending on usage)?<BR>
<BR>
>According to the original Striker it's 250MW.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Rupert.  I thought that it was something like that, but I<BR>
didn't think to look in Striker.  Just looked and the 250 MW<BR>
reference was to Beam/Pulse Laser input energy being 250 MW, and in<BR>
HG they expend 1 EP, so that matches up.<BR>
<BR>
I don't want to start a debate about this, *but* I'm not sure the<BR>
250MW=1EP works for the rest of the system.  I might have it all<BR>
wrong, but it looks like the 250 MW number is too high by a factor<BR>
of 3.  <BR>
<BR>
Example:  TL15, 400 dton ship, with a 3g M Drive would need 12 dtons<BR>
to produce 12 EP's.<BR>
<BR>
That's 3,000 MW per (12*14) M3, or 17.86, round to 18 MW/M3, but, in<BR>
Striker, MT and both FFS books a TL15 fusion plant produces 6 MW/M3.<BR>
<BR>
Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:21:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
>> Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
>> feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
>> in your own starship.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rob<BR>
>> <BR>
>> P.S. You'll probably want your map of the Spinward Marches handy.<BR>
>> I have the actual sector data online if you want to eyeball the<BR>
>> data used.<BR>
<BR>
Very impressive!<BR>
<BR>
I logged in and jumped my Subbie all over the place, making a ton of<BR>
cr!  <g> Then I killed the session and relogged in.  It remembered<BR>
me and where I'd left my ship.<BR>
<BR>
You know this could be *really* useful. <g><BR>
<BR>
What rules are you using to generate the cargos and passengers? <BR>
<BR>
You asked for suggestions: <BR>
<BR>
1.  Add a Logout button that takes you back to the opening screen.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Add Spec cargo!  <g> Use B2!!!  I like the flavor of named<BR>
    cargos...don't you? <BR>
<BR>
3.  Include a way to use Skills, like Broker/Trader for cargo and<BR>
    Admin/Carousing for passengers, in the trading module.<BR>
<BR>
4.  That brings up adding skills to the characters, and editing the<BR>
    characters (I *should* have included my ICQ, but didn't...grrr),<BR>
    and what about "ship encounters?" <g> <BR>
    <BR>
You did ask for suggestions. <bg><BR>
<BR>
Rob, I'm impressed and enthused.  You're building a neat framework<BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:18:34 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
On 05/13/00 at 01:13 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> What I would like to do is crash it into a shallow sea and scatter the wreckage<BR>
>> on the sea bed.  But: would it be a practicle design for a such a vehicle, on a<BR>
>> sublight colony ship, to attempt to land on a body of water?<BR>
 <BR>
>> I'm not sure myself.  I'm thinking about the Space Shuttle (TL7), advanced two<BR>
>> TL, and trying to land it on water.<BR>
<BR>
>That would actually be the only way to go; remember, there won't be a<BR>
>landing strip the first time they go down, so the only guaranteed<BR>
>reasonably flat, free of obstructions surface on the planet would be on<BR>
>the water.<BR>
<BR>
So, are you thinking about vertical take off and landing or doing<BR>
one or the other horizontally?<BR>
<BR>
If I was going to design a shuttle to land on unknown planets I'd<BR>
much prefer to have a vtol.  Yes, it requires more power, but you'd<BR>
have a much more flexible system when it comes to finding a good<BR>
place to put your craft down.  <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:18:22 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
>> Bigger and better, which isn't saying much; however, please<BR>
>> feel free to surf on over and cruise around an entire sector<BR>
>> in your own starship.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ...and give me some feedback and suggestions, please!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rob<BR>
>> <BR>
>> P.S. You'll probably want your map of the Spinward Marches handy.<BR>
>> I have the actual sector data online if you want to eyeball the<BR>
>> data used.<BR>
<BR>
Very impressive!<BR>
<BR>
I logged in and jumped my Subbie all over the place, making a ton of<BR>
cr!  <g> Then I killed the session and relogged in.  It remembered<BR>
me and where I'd left my ship.<BR>
<BR>
You know this could be *really* useful. <g><BR>
<BR>
What rules are you using to generate the cargos and passengers? <BR>
<BR>
You asked for suggestions: <BR>
<BR>
1.  Add a Logout button that takes you back to the opening screen.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Add Spec cargo!  <g> Use B2!!!  I like the flavor of named<BR>
    cargos...don't you? <BR>
<BR>
3.  Include a way to use Skills, like Broker/Trader for cargo and<BR>
    Admin/Carousing for passengers, in the trading module.<BR>
<BR>
4.  That brings up adding skills to the characters, and editing the<BR>
    characters (I *should* have included my ICQ, but didn't...grrr),<BR>
    and what about "ship encounters?" <g> <BR>
    <BR>
You did ask for suggestions. <bg><BR>
<BR>
Rob, I'm impressed and enthused.  You're building a neat framework<BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:29:35 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 12:09, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What happens to Electrostatic Armour in close formation? do the<BR>
> tanks/troopers zap each other ?<BR>
<BR>
According to FFS1 ESA armour's sensors are set to only trigger the zap <BR>
effect when an incoming object fits within fairly tight size/velocity <BR>
parameters, so no they don't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:29:35 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 22:47, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My suggestion would be to simply use the system for converting<BR>
> Traveller characters into GURPS charecters given at the back<BR>
> of GURPS Traveller 2nd ed in reverse. <BR>
> <BR>
> So if a CT character with Pilot Skill 1 would convert into<BR>
> a GURPS charecter with 4 points in Pilot (and a few more<BR>
> points in related skills) than a GURPS generated NPC with<BR>
> 4 points in Pilot would logically covert to a CT charecter<BR>
> with Pilot-1.<BR>
> <BR>
> This approach will, however, tend to reduce the effectiveness<BR>
> of point optimized GURPS charecters with high stats and a <BR>
> few points each in a number of skills.<BR>
<BR>
And this is a bad thing?<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:39:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2426<BR>
<BR>
>There is no pleasing some people!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
You said exactly what I wanted to say. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
But, I had to be diplomatic. Nice to have a second voice out there.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:46:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
>> and its a definite hog<BR>
>><BR>
>> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
>> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
>> on my machine.<BR>
<BR>
Bloo wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>>It runs very slow for me (with a Celeron at 400 and 128mb ram).<BR>
>>The results are great and it will do a lot, though I have a lot<BR>
>>of quibbles about the interface and am finding several bugs.<BR>
<BR>
I have put a number of points into the generation routines where the program<BR>
yields to Windows and allows it to undertake other tasks, but whilst this<BR>
might be a considered an advantage every time it yields the program isn't<BR>
doing calculations and as a result the generations take longer.<BR>
<BR>
It eventually becomes a juggling act. Speed over practicality.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:05:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: 1 EP = ??? Mj<BR>
<BR>
On 13 May 00, at 23:19, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/14/00 at 10:47 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> What did we decide the conversion was from High Guard Energy Points to<BR>
> >> megajouls (or megawatts, depending on usage)?<BR>
> <BR>
> >According to the original Striker it's 250MW.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks Rupert.  I thought that it was something like that, but I<BR>
> didn't think to look in Striker.  Just looked and the 250 MW<BR>
> reference was to Beam/Pulse Laser input energy being 250 MW, and in<BR>
> HG they expend 1 EP, so that matches up.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't want to start a debate about this, *but* I'm not sure the<BR>
> 250MW=1EP works for the rest of the system.  I might have it all<BR>
> wrong, but it looks like the 250 MW number is too high by a factor<BR>
> of 3.  <BR>
> <BR>
> Example:  TL15, 400 dton ship, with a 3g M Drive would need 12 dtons<BR>
> to produce 12 EP's.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's 3,000 MW per (12*14) M3, or 17.86, round to 18 MW/M3, but, in<BR>
> Striker, MT and both FFS books a TL15 fusion plant produces 6 MW/M3.<BR>
> <BR>
> Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
In MT, at least, you've forgotten the scale factors (that FFS1 doesn't <BR>
use). Large power-plants (especially fusion ones) are lots more <BR>
efficient than small ones.<BR>
<BR>
IMO the 1 EP = 250MW is too high for other reasons - like that it means <BR>
that just about everything in Traveller from HG onwards uses a <BR>
phenomenal amout of power compared to the real world (barring <BR>
thrusters, HEPlaR, etc).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:11:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
At 18:25 -0400 13/5/00,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Or an illustration of the Free Trader Beowulf text with a ship<BR>
> > trailing damage and spewing gasses having been hit....<BR>
><BR>
>Oh my, Jesse, please do this one, it's a fantastic idea.<BR>
<BR>
I kind of liked this idea when i thought of it too. I'd love to see a <BR>
pic of the damaged Beowulf drifting. But it may be a pain to do as i <BR>
suspect that Jesse would either need a lot of new texture maps or to <BR>
change the Beowulf model.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, is it me or do the Illustrations of the Blakeway in Starports <BR>
differ slightly from the deckplans with the rear entries etc?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:51:06 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Trent Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I realize that this isn't likely to spark a genuine revival for a long-dead<BR>
> game, but I still hope it sells well for Marc, and I'm very much looking<BR>
> forward to the other books in the series.<BR>
<BR>
If rumor is correct, it may be doing something even better:<BR>
reaching and appealing to the Young Gamers of the 00's.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:09:04 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
Now my ego is well-inflated.  I can no longer fit through<BR>
doorways.  Anybody got a hacksaw?<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Very impressive!<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> What rules are you using to generate the cargos and passengers?<BR>
<BR>
Of course, I'm using the Only Rules -- The Traveller Book.  Except <BR>
I didn't put in the Amber/Red zone rulelets.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'm using T4's starship stats, which are much<BR>
more generous than CT's.  Might change my mind there.<BR>
 <BR>
> You asked for suggestions:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1.  Add a Logout button that takes you back to the opening screen.<BR>
><BR>
> 2.  Add Spec cargo!  <g> Use B2!!!  I like the flavor of named<BR>
>     cargos...don't you?<BR>
><BR>
> 3.  Include a way to use Skills, like Broker/Trader for cargo and<BR>
>     Admin/Carousing for passengers, in the trading module.<BR>
> <BR>
> 4.  That brings up adding skills to the characters, and editing the<BR>
>     characters (I *should* have included my ICQ, but didn't...grrr),<BR>
>     and what about "ship encounters?" <g><BR>
> <BR>
> You did ask for suggestions. <bg><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I want those suggestions.  I covet those suggestions.  Besides,<BR>
they're pretty much what I've been heading towards so they<BR>
validate my plans.<BR>
<BR>
There's one thing I want to add that will breathe life into<BR>
the sim, and that's non-player characters.  My data model already<BR>
has a skill list for each player, it's just not used yet.   But<BR>
once you have skills, there's a new dimension to the sim:<BR>
<BR>
Your ability to Travel is limited by your skill set.<BR>
<BR>
This means the owner and captain of a starship might have to<BR>
hire others to help run his ship, and pay them a salary (based<BR>
on skill level of course).<BR>
<BR>
Thankfully, something like ICQ can manage communications, which<BR>
is of necessity FTL :(<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:38:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
These ideas would bring this game more into the realm of a ICQ/MUD hybrid,<BR>
which is what it needs IMO (though it could be difficult to keep the player<BR>
as the 'captain' rather than the ship itself).<BR>
The ability to shoot other ships and steal their cargo would be nice as well<BR>
(maybe restrict it so that only those set up to act as a killer can be<BR>
killed).<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I logged in and jumped my Subbie all over the place, making a ton of<BR>
> cr!  <g> Then I killed the session and relogged in.  It remembered<BR>
> me and where I'd left my ship.<BR>
><BR>
> You know this could be *really* useful. <g><BR>
><BR>
> What rules are you using to generate the cargos and passengers?<BR>
><BR>
> You asked for suggestions:<BR>
><BR>
> 1.  Add a Logout button that takes you back to the opening screen.<BR>
><BR>
> 2.  Add Spec cargo!  <g> Use B2!!!  I like the flavor of named<BR>
>     cargos...don't you?<BR>
><BR>
> 3.  Include a way to use Skills, like Broker/Trader for cargo and<BR>
>     Admin/Carousing for passengers, in the trading module.<BR>
><BR>
> 4.  That brings up adding skills to the characters, and editing the<BR>
>     characters (I *should* have included my ICQ, but didn't...grrr),<BR>
>     and what about "ship encounters?" <g><BR>
><BR>
> You did ask for suggestions. <bg><BR>
><BR>
> Rob, I'm impressed and enthused.  You're building a neat framework<BR>
> here.<BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:46:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> > In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
> > an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
> > examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   <BR>
><BR>
> Oohhh, could you tell me the issue number? Please? (I will try to<BR>
> track it down on eBay or wherever.)<BR>
<BR>
High Passage number 5<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > In addition to the list is a brief text which clarifies that  the<BR>
> > government  type   attempts   to   categorise   an   individual's<BR>
> > relationship to the state rather than the structure of the  upper<BR>
> > echelons of the government.  <BR>
><BR>
> OK, that definitely makes sense, and it confirms what I suspected<BR>
> about "bureaucratic" governments at least. (What are his examples<BR>
> for "civil service" and "impersonal bureaucracy," by the way?)<BR>
<BR>
Marc's examples of a  'civil  service':  "Imperial  China  (where<BR>
selective tests determined the  fitness  of  the  individuals  to<BR>
assume  government  posts),  and  some  aspects  of  the  Federal<BR>
government of the United States."<BR>
<BR>
Marc's examples of an  'impersonal  bureaucracy':  "Most  welfare<BR>
agencies, customs officials, and tax departments."<BR>
<BR>
He also gave the following examples of  a  'feudal  technocracy':<BR>
"Japan (in that companies tend to hire employees  for  life,  and<BR>
strong loyalties are formed), and the United States (in that some<BR>
populations  have  strong  party  loyalty  in  return  for  local<BR>
assistance by the party in the form of jobs and hand-outs."<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind that  these  examples  tend  to  reflect  one  man's<BR>
political perspective of the world in 1982.  As always IYTU YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > As  such  certain  government  types<BR>
> > such as "kingdom" or  "communism"  do  not  appear,  but  may  be<BR>
> > examples of other Traveller government  types  ...  the  USSR  is<BR>
> > listed in  the  twice, once for the USSR under  Stalin,  and  one<BR>
> > post-Stalin.<BR>
><BR>
> My guess would be that the first was government type A, the second<BR>
> government type B. But what did MWM say?<BR>
<BR>
Marc gives hereditary monarchies as government type 3, but the UK<BR>
(a "constitutional" monarchy) as type 4.<BR>
<BR>
And the USSR under Lenin (and also the US under FDR) as  type  A,<BR>
and the USSR after Stalin as  type  B.  (Although  the  Communist<BR>
Party in the USSR as type C.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:52:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
I also ran into an error 53 last night, where it wasnt finding a <BR>
temporary map properly, this occured when it was trying to <BR>
generate a planets statistics after a sector was generated.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:52:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Derrick, I havent been in on the testing of this wonderful software, <BR>
so I dont know quite what to expect, which is why I am asking the <BR>
questions I have. <BR>
<BR>
I do have a question about updates to the program<BR>
are there any plans to include a name generator for<BR>
the planets ala what Jim Vasilakos has done with<BR>
Galactic?<BR>
<BR>
I dont do programming myself, but being the data packrat I am, I <BR>
have been compiling a small list of planet names taken from books <BR>
and long out of print stuff. its up around 1,200 names so far.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:50:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
> > > In an old issue of High Passage magazine (I forget which one) was<BR>
> > > an article by Marc Miller himself  which  *did*  list  real-world<BR>
> > > examples  of  every  main  Traveller  government   type.   <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Oohhh, could you tell me the issue number? Please? (I will try to<BR>
> > track it down on eBay or wherever.)<BR>
><BR>
> Duh, I'm sorry, you just said you *didn't know* the issue number.<BR>
> My brain is definitely not working today...<BR>
<BR>
No, I just forgot which one  when  I  was  at  work  writing  the<BR>
original reply.  (I don't get to keep my Traveller  resources  to<BR>
hand when I'm at work.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:34:03 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Pre-Gravitic shuttles<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 14 May 2000, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> So, are you thinking about vertical take off and landing or doing<BR>
> one or the other horizontally?<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't even considered how it took off.  Either really.<BR>
<BR>
> If I was going to design a shuttle to land on unknown planets I'd<BR>
> much prefer to have a vtol.  Yes, it requires more power, but you'd<BR>
> have a much more flexible system when it comes to finding a good<BR>
> place to put your craft down.  <BR>
<BR>
I said in my original post the I was "being particularly nasty to the new<BR>
colonists and want to destroy their only last piece of 'hi-tech'<BR>
transportation".  What I didn't mention was that they had just tried to bring<BR>
the sleepership down from orbit to land near the settlement they had begun<BR>
building at the edge of the sea.  The ship was flying over some high<BR>
mountains to the west as it approached, when all communication was lost.<BR>
<BR>
The shuttle is to be the only vehicle capable of even having a chance at<BR>
getting to the mountians anytime soon.  That involved going via, at least, low<BR>
orbit and comming in to land on the same trajectory as the sleepership.  Hoping<BR>
to get a location for the rescue parties to head for.<BR>
<BR>
As the shuttle returns it has spent the last of it's fuel and is comming in to<BR>
land after having reported 'we have the coordinates'.  Unfortunatly the shuttle<BR>
crashes as it is landing and breaks up.  Wreckage scattered across the bottom<BR>
of the sea.  Possibly including the coords of the sleepership.<BR>
<BR>
With limited fuel this would have been the only option open to them to find the<BR>
sleepership to have any chance of saving any of the thousands of sleepers and<BR>
crew on board.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
2:34pm up 7 days, 19:36, 2 users, load average: 1.89, 0.78, 0.28<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:57:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> My take on the dread Type 5 govt is fairly simple. Its a government where <BR>
> those technically competant in a particular field are responsible for <BR>
> governing that field.<BR>
><BR>
> For example, roading and transport would be the responsibility of someone <BR>
> with demonstrable competance in roading and transport; law and order <BR>
> would fall under those with skills in that area etc. I think the best<BR>
example <BR>
> of it would be some municipal governments.<BR>
<BR>
That's exactly how I *prefer* to use the term IMTU, too.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:48:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Peasants, Armorers and Lords Oh No<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>Aside from some smiths & armoerers, there really *wasn't* any<BR>
>"technical expertise" that made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Actually there was an abundance of trades that made a great deal of<BR>
difference.  Note, depending on the materials available and location some of<BR>
the following were locally more important that others.<BR>
<BR>
For your castle/cathedral construction:<BR>
<BR>
Stone cutters, masons, carpenters, slaters, thatchers,  various metal<BR>
workers in copper and lead, glass blowers, glazers<BR>
<BR>
Cloth, and apparel:<BR>
<BR>
Weavers, dyers, tanners, spinners, needle makers, tailors<BR>
<BR>
Containers:<BR>
<BR>
Potters, coopers, basket makers<BR>
<BR>
Animal husbandry:<BR>
<BR>
Farriers, falconers, sheperds, pig keepers, kennel keepers, stockmen, dairy<BR>
men,<BR>
<BR>
For the sea:<BR>
<BR>
shipwrights, sail makers, cordwalenders (rope makers), netters,<BR>
<BR>
For the table:<BR>
<BR>
Butcher, brewer, baker, fishmonger, beekeeper<BR>
<BR>
Just as an exercise try to duplicate a 12th century household item generally<BR>
made by a tradesman or tradesmen and see how sucessful you are.  Can you<BR>
make a wooden stave well bucket, banded in metal with a metal bail and a<BR>
chain with hammered metal links?  There is a very nice example shown in "The<BR>
Excavations at York, The Viking Dig" by Richard Hall.  How about some<BR>
"simple" crafts then, can you make a basket, thatch a roof,  tan a hide,<BR>
make woad, catch rats?<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2427<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 14 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2428<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2426<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2427<BR>
1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
Request for review<BR>
[BITS] Website 14 May 2000 Update/Announcement<BR>
re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
RE: TML Elders<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
LONG response to Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:37:11 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
At 7:27 -0400 14/5/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>With these projects, CRS is taking the development of massively<BR>
>multiplayer<BR>
>RPG's to a higher level with their multiple-platform design and<BR>
>implementation<BR>
>of an assortment of never-before-seen features for both the Traveller<BR>
>universe and the huge fantasy world within Kharduum.   Both titles will<BR>
<BR>
*Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:37:33 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
>> >><BR>
>> >> One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume, so<BR>
>> >> they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for exploration<BR>
>> >> base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit (and not use<BR>
>> >> EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
>> >><BR>
>> >><BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
>> <BR>
<BR>
You may also wish to consider the effect on the poor soldier who forgets the<BR>
field is there and goes out to water the dragon in the middle of the night...<BR>
<BR>
also, where does the rules for the damage inflicted by a ESA system on a<BR>
person appear... I considered looking into transferring it accross as though<BR>
it were a weapon of similar discharge energy, but through all my searchings<BR>
I haven't found any hard rules<BR>
<BR>
any ideas?<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2426<BR>
<BR>
"Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I realize that this isn't likely to spark a genuine<BR>
> revival for a long-dead game<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah? My upcoming CT campaign (which will be with a<BR>
group of players who were born 5 years after CT was<BR>
first released!) says otherwise! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:48:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
- --- adsr <adsr@mato.com> wrote:<BR>
> Has anyone seen or have the reprints of CT yet? <BR>
> Just curious if they<BR>
> are worth the effort?  <BR>
> <BR>
> Andy<BR>
<BR>
They most certainly are! Quite a bit cheaper than<BR>
you'd pay for the same stuff on eBay plus some extra<BR>
goodies like the original map of Charted Space and<BR>
Marc's interesting notes on the history of CT.<BR>
<BR>
someone elsewhere said that CT may be gaining<BR>
popularity with young gamers of the 90's. That<BR>
wouldn't surprise me, really. Us old gamers of the<BR>
early 80's liked Traveller for the same reason that<BR>
the newbies might be catching on to it; it is at it's<BR>
core a SIMPLE game. It's not tough to play or<BR>
understand, and that frees you up to get into<BR>
character and not worry so much about rules. In an odd<BR>
way, Traveller may actually have been the first<BR>
"storytelling" game :) I confess to preferring GURPS<BR>
Traveller, but I suspect I'll be running some CT too,<BR>
because it's just too fun to resist.<BR>
   I'm hoping that the lessons of MT, TNE and T4 will<BR>
be applied to the new edition, and those lessons, IMO,<BR>
are: don't lose the inherent ease of CT. This is what<BR>
makes Traveller fun, I believe.<BR>
<BR>
Allen<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:24:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
At 10:48 PM 5/13/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Well I'm a newbie to this list anyhow.<BR>
>    I have recently dug my T:NE books out and have been considering running<BR>
>a game at some point for my local group. One problem I have found often with<BR>
>the GDW core system, however, is the massive amounts of damage that the<BR>
>players can take. Has anyone found a way around this problem?<BR>
<BR>
Halve the damage points each character has.  Use the instant kill rule for<BR>
everybody.<BR>
<BR>
Buy ACQ.  :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:33:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2427<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>I also ran into an error 53 last night, where it wasnt finding a<BR>
>temporary map properly, this occured when it was trying to<BR>
>generate a planets statistics after a sector was generated.<BR>
<BR>
There are probably still a few bugs or ten lurking around the program<BR>
smoking fags and generally being obnoxious. The program should however, be<BR>
about 99% stable. I will try to fix things as they are pointed out.<BR>
<BR>
>Derrick, I havent been in on the testing of this wonderful software,<BR>
>so I dont know quite what to expect, which is why I am asking the<BR>
>questions I have.<BR>
<BR>
>I do have a question about updates to the program<BR>
>are there any plans to include a name generator for<BR>
>the planets ala what Jim Vasilakos has done with<BR>
>Galactic?<BR>
<BR>
>dont do programming myself, but being the data packrat I am, I<BR>
>have been compiling a small list of planet names taken from books<BR>
>and long out of print stuff. its up around 1,200 names so far.<BR>
<BR>
This has been requested often. I have higher priorities at the moment i.e.<BR>
World Detail Editor and Jump Calculator, but rest assured I will be<BR>
including something like this in the future.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:54:22 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 07:09 AM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>...<BR>
>>That's 3,000 MW per (12*14) M3, or 17.86, round to 18 MW/M3, but, in<BR>
>>Striker, MT and both FFS books a TL15 fusion plant produces 6 MW/M3.<BR>
<BR>
>> Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
>  Scale efficiencies table - IIRC, x3.0 at 14m^3 or higher.<BR>
<BR>
Slapping self in head, "Yes, I *knew* that!"<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> added...<BR>
<BR>
>In MT, at least, you've forgotten the scale factors (that FFS1 doesn't <BR>
>use). Large power-plants (especially fusion ones) are lots more <BR>
>efficient than small ones.<BR>
<BR>
>IMO the 1 EP = 250MW is too high for other reasons - like that it means <BR>
>that just about everything in Traveller from HG onwards uses a <BR>
>phenomenal amout of power compared to the real world (barring <BR>
>thrusters, HEPlaR, etc).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Right, I hadn't taken that scale efficiency into account.  However, scale efficiency is for "large fusion power plants." If  "large" is defined I missed it.  Does the power plant for a 400dt Subbie qualify as large? <BR>
<BR>
IAC, my...not so hidden...point matches with Rupert's second paragraph.  Last week I tried to design the same ship using B2, HG, FFS and FFS2 and couldn't really do it, although FFS2 came close. One thing that stood out was how much larger power plants got after B2, and how much more power hungry everything seemed to be (excepting HEPlaR and thrusters and the efforts we took in FFS to lower power requirements to reasonable levels).<BR>
<BR>
FFS2's scale effiecencies are a *heck* of a lot more reasonable, IMO. For the sort of power plant in a PC-class ship the SE is going to usually be 1.21, or 7.26 Mw/m3.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:57:14 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Then I think I will avoid it.  My poor p-100 would die.<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bloo replied:<BR>
> >Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> I'm running it on a K6/2 500 with 64mb<BR>
> >> and its a definite hog<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> I tried running a sector of 198 planets with the MT/WBH rules<BR>
> >> and all the options for profiles, it took roughly 6 hours to do this<BR>
> >> on my machine.<BR>
><BR>
> >Ouch!  Something is broken somewhere.  I hope Stuart is<BR>
> >reading these.<BR>
><BR>
> >bloo<BR>
><BR>
> Chaps, it ain't broke. Just think of what it is doing....<BR>
><BR>
> It is generating the wbh factsheet for every world in the system, and a<BR>
> traveller style map for each as well. If you consider what it is doing to<BR>
> generate this information, and how long it took you to do it in the past<BR>
> by pencil and paper, the 6 hours is nothing. Then it combines it all and<BR>
> compresses it into a new file to save precious hard disk space.<BR>
><BR>
> Thing is people expect computers to do things instantaneously. The amount<BR>
> of work going into what is outputted really is enormous. I for one am<BR>
> quite willing to generate the sector I need off line, overnight, with me tucked<BR>
> up in bed, and lo and behold... takes no time at all.<BR>
><BR>
> Incidentally, Trojan Reaches took 16 hours on my pitiful P200/64Mb, but since I've<BR>
> seen what this program can do right from it's infancy, I really am quite happy to<BR>
> let it be a hog, and thank Stuart for giving me the power. All in all, in the 18 months<BR>
> I've been trying out WBD/H&E I've done months of processing, and beleive me, it has<BR>
> got more efficient over time.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, do you realise that you both will have *exactly* the same information,<BR>
> provided you have the same options set, and are looking at the same dataset.<BR>
> Helpful for players of campaigns which have detailed info available to the characters,<BR>
> since research can be done away from the gaming session, at player's own homes,<BR>
> and players can be more informed of the universe their characters grew up in. And it<BR>
> is consistent from one PC to the next. That is worth EVERYTHING in my book!<BR>
><BR>
> There is no pleasing some people!  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Derrick<BR>
><BR>
> Derrick Jones<BR>
> St Helens<BR>
> Lancashire UK<BR>
> http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:07:31 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
shimmer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Then I think I will avoid it.  My poor p-100 would die.<BR>
<BR>
    You don't have to generate the entire sector...or even subsector...all at once.  You can<BR>
generate worlds singly, as needed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:48:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: "Traveller On-Line" up and running now!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Now my ego is well-inflated.  I can no longer fit through<BR>
> doorways.  Anybody got a hacksaw?<BR>
<BR>
Nah, all we need is a sharp pin! <BR>
<BR>
<poke><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:14:59 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
Hello!<BR>
<BR>
I would like to request that someone writes a review of ACQ and of <BR>
101 Patrons, and either posts it to the TML or to Freelance <BR>
Traveller!  I used to do this myself, but I'm too involved in these <BR>
now to do it fairly. I suspect JTAS will have a review of Patrons <BR>
sometime, but if anyone has one of the first copies, please, let us <BR>
know what you think! It drives what we do next!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:12:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Website 14 May 2000 Update/Announcement<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Website update 14 May 2000<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, an apology. This afternoon the BITS site was down due to a <BR>
combination of server issues and my own stupidity. I changed the main <BR>
index page from BITShome.html to index.htl to eliminate some of the <BR>
issues we've had with search engines, but forgot about the redirect <BR>
from the 'www.bits.org.uk' address to the server the site is on. As a <BR>
result, the frameset document wasn't available and the site went <BR>
down. Then I lost access to the server when trying to re-load the old <BR>
page name.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, all the trouble has been sorted out now, and the pages <BR>
describing 101 Patrons added, including an enlarged shot of Jesse's <BR>
excellent cover (click on the book cover on the details page to show <BR>
this).<BR>
<BR>
Those of you that use the non-frame and text only browsers should <BR>
note that the overall site index page is now called siteindex.html, <BR>
not index.html. Index.html is the frameset document, and is identical <BR>
to BITShome.html (which will be removed once the redirect is changed).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you usually access through http://www.bits.org.uk/ you <BR>
should see no differences beyond the 101 Patrons information.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:20:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 01:37 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 7:27 -0400 14/5/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>>With these projects, CRS is taking the development of massively<BR>
>>multiplayer<BR>
>>RPG's to a higher level with their multiple-platform design and<BR>
>>implementation<BR>
>>of an assortment of never-before-seen features for both the Traveller<BR>
>>universe and the huge fantasy world within Kharduum.   Both titles will<BR>
<BR>
>*Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
<BR>
I must be missing mail!  <BR>
<BR>
I saw something about the CRS/Farfutures agreement on a newsgroup, but never saw *anything* about it here.  Was it mentioned/discussed here in the last couple of days?<BR>
<BR>
This is going to be like Everlast, only with Traveller, right?  <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:33:04 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 11:29 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>On 13 May 00, at 22:47, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> My suggestion would be to simply use the system for converting<BR>
>> Traveller characters into GURPS charecters given at the back<BR>
>> of GURPS Traveller 2nd ed in reverse. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> So if a CT character with Pilot Skill 1 would convert into<BR>
>> a GURPS charecter with 4 points in Pilot (and a few more<BR>
>> points in related skills) than a GURPS generated NPC with<BR>
>> 4 points in Pilot would logically covert to a CT charecter<BR>
>> with Pilot-1.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This approach will, however, tend to reduce the effectiveness<BR>
>> of point optimized GURPS charecters with high stats and a <BR>
>> few points each in a number of skills.<BR>
<BR>
>And this is a bad thing?<BR>
<BR>
Not to me....if you're seriously asking. <g><BR>
<BR>
GURPS, plus the BITS task system isn't bad at all to run, but personally I can't stand the "high stat, multitude of 1/2 point" monsters that it seems to breed...I'm just funny that way.  It's a disease that any character generation system catchs when it starts adding Stats and Skils.  The DGP/MT method has it's own problems, but it avoids the worse of the "stat inflation fever" that TNE and T4 caught.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:43:00 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 02:07 PM,  Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>shimmer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Then I think I will avoid it.  My poor p-100 would die.<BR>
<BR>
>    You don't have to generate the entire sector...or even<BR>
>subsector...all at once.  You can generate worlds singly, as needed.<BR>
<BR>
Right, that's what I've been doing, just generate a single system at a time. It takes a minute or two, but that includes all the data from WBH and a world map for each world in a system as well as a system chart.<BR>
<BR>
It is very slick and I haven't run into any bugs in the latest drop, though it wouldn't surprise me if there weren't a few lurking around. No offense Stuart.<BR>
<BR>
You know I've *never* understood the temperture charts with their day and night, summer and winter, hex rows. It looks to me like even garden worlds are freezing or boiling, I know that can't be right, but it always looks that way. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:04:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> *Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
<BR>
The Cornered Rats _ALWAYS_ make cross-platform<BR>
games.  When they created WarBirds in 1994/5, it<BR>
was done simultaneously for PC and Mac, and it has<BR>
continued to be so.  Their Mac Heads are super-dedicated.<BR>
<BR>
I don't speak for them, but I certainly expect a Mac,<BR>
and possibly a Linux, version (allowing you to interact<BR>
with PC players at the same time, of course).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:08:15 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/14/00 at 01:37 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >At 7:27 -0400 14/5/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
> >>With these projects, CRS is taking the development of massively<BR>
> >>multiplayer<BR>
> >>RPG's to a higher level with their multiple-platform design and<BR>
> >>implementation<BR>
> >>of an assortment of never-before-seen features for both the Traveller<BR>
> >>universe and the huge fantasy world within Kharduum.   Both titles will<BR>
><BR>
> >*Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
><BR>
> I must be missing mail!<BR>
><BR>
> I saw something about the CRS/Farfutures agreement on a newsgroup, but never saw *anything* about it here.  Was it mentioned/discussed here in the last couple of days?<BR>
<BR>
Nope.  Most of the CRS/Playnet people are at E3.<BR>
Also, I don't think they monitor the TML.  At least<BR>
not yet.<BR>
<BR>
> This is going to be like Everlast, only with Traveller, right?<BR>
<BR>
They haven't said yet.  I'll ask them when the world can<BR>
expect more info.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:02:53 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
Well, I just re-checked Starports, and there AREN'T any shots of a Blakeway<BR>
in it.  The illo that's with the Blakeway deckplans & info is the wrong<BR>
illo.  Refer to the JTAS issue with the Blakeway, or hit my site at<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/blakeway.htm to see the<BR>
difference.  The ship that's in Starports is a normal Sulie named "Beccaria"<BR>
that I created for Derek Stanley's Confederation of Nightrim PBIRC game<BR>
(http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html).  You can see more shots of<BR>
the "Beccaria" to compare to "Starports" at Derek's site in the 'Personal<BR>
Logs' section.  Look at the Orkney images.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 4:11 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: TML Elders<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 18:25 -0400 13/5/00,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella"<BR>
> <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> > > Or an illustration of the Free Trader Beowulf text with a ship<BR>
> > > trailing damage and spewing gasses having been hit....<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Oh my, Jesse, please do this one, it's a fantastic idea.<BR>
><BR>
> I kind of liked this idea when i thought of it too. I'd love to see a<BR>
> pic of the damaged Beowulf drifting. But it may be a pain to do as i<BR>
> suspect that Jesse would either need a lot of new texture maps or to<BR>
> change the Beowulf model.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, is it me or do the Illustrations of the Blakeway in Starports<BR>
> differ slightly from the deckplans with the rear entries etc?<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:15:47 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 14 May 2000, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> On 14 May 00, at 12:09, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > What happens to Electrostatic Armour in close formation? do the<BR>
> > tanks/troopers zap each other ?<BR>
> <BR>
> According to FFS1 ESA armour's sensors are set to only trigger the zap <BR>
> effect when an incoming object fits within fairly tight size/velocity <BR>
> parameters, so no they don't.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I'll have a 'grenade', please Bob.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
9:15pm up 8 days, 2:17, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:07:01 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: LONG response to Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
I'm amalgamating this response (and some quotes as a result are <BR>
unattributed as the text clipping I grabbed them off didn't have the <BR>
original poster's name - sorry).<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 2:05 PM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com <BR>
>issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > 2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks?<BR>
>I would like to see more like 101 Lifeforms, perhaps more focused on a class<BR>
>of lifeforms like Sophonts, Domestics, or even simply Plants. 101 Sophonts<BR>
>could include proto- and pseudo-sapients, geneered variants, etc.<BR>
<BR>
That's one I'll mention. Would GURPS stats be key, or would Rob <BR>
Prior's article on JTAS be enough?<BR>
<BR>
> Another<BR>
>idea is 101 Locations, with write-ups on places of interest, common<BR>
>settings, miscellaneous facilities.<BR>
<BR>
This pretty much describes 101 Rendezvous which gives many locations <BR>
for adventures? Was there some area in this that you felt was missing?<BR>
<BR>
> I have yet to buy one of the adventures,<BR>
>as I rarely use such supplements, but a good way to entice me would be<BR>
>including maps, deckplans, diagrams, and handout type material.<BR>
<BR>
The adventures to date have deckplans and maps, plus some pages which <BR>
are intended to be copied by the GM for players to use. The ships <BR>
have GURPS and T4 stats.<BR>
<BR>
>Still, I'll<BR>
>likely buy more of your other products before getting adventures, as I tend<BR>
>to arbitrate matrix campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
Can you expand on this? Matrix campaigns instantly made me think of a <BR>
certain film...<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > 1) Would you like to see more adventures? Did you like the two we<BR>
> > have released? Did you buy them?<BR>
>Bought them, read them, liked them, haven't played them (yet, probably this<BR>
>summer).<BR>
<BR>
Glad to hear it!<BR>
<BR>
>More adventures would be a Good Thing, especially if they are designed in such<BR>
>a way as to show off different parts of the Traveller Universe. Playing a few<BR>
>such adventures as single-shot scenarios before starting a campaign with<BR>
>players new to Traveller (or any other system/setting) is a great thing to do.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. We have some other scenarios that do things like put the players <BR>
in the place of the Zhodani (Delta 3 is Down), or as a contact team <BR>
(Name escapes me at the moment), touches on crime (Family Business), <BR>
Counter Terrorism (Seek and Destroy - worked well with ACQ), <BR>
Industrial Espionage (Valentine's Rose), Noble Intrigue/Thriller (Web <BR>
of Deceit). Is that what you mean?<BR>
<BR>
>The first two showed us noble intrigue and the status of aliens in the<BR>
>Imperium. How about the following basic concepts?<BR>
<BR>
I should have read this bit before the above...<BR>
<BR>
>* Scouts/exploration/survey/artifact/mystery<BR>
<BR>
Easily doable - in fact, done but OOP (The Long Way Home). This could <BR>
happen quickly.<BR>
<BR>
>* Top Gun (fighter pilots)<BR>
<BR>
Hard to do in Traveller - Fighters die easily - a small patrol ship <BR>
would be easier.<BR>
<BR>
>* Belter PCs, pirates arrive and take control of base, belters unexpectedly<BR>
>strike back at the pirates (lead by PCs)<BR>
><BR>
>I think those four concepts show off other important parts of the Traveller<BR>
>universe. Any important parts that I've missed?<BR>
<BR>
There are three concepts above? Not four. I'd add trading/gun running <BR>
type stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > 2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks? What<BR>
> > format would you prefer? Do you want a focus on background or<BR>
> > adventures? For example, would you like to see a detailed sector<BR>
> > worked up by BITS?<BR>
>A sector workup might be nice (at least I would buy it), but perhaps <BR>
>better yet<BR>
>would be a book with an expanded timeline, describing important events and<BR>
>periods in the history of humaniti.<BR>
><BR>
>In general, published adventures are great for introduction to a game<BR>
>system/setting. When you've understood the environment, all you need is<BR>
>probably some general information to work from. In other words, both <BR>
>background<BR>
>and adventures are good, but for different types of people.<BR>
<BR>
I see. But we could (for example) publish a setting and then some <BR>
adventures in it (like GDW with Diapora and Hard Times?).<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > The cover depicts a scout/courier launching from a world, with a<BR>
> > shadowed figure outlined in the stars in the backdrop. (Jesse, I<BR>
> > think it looks excellent).<BR>
><BR>
>Will this picture be available for viewing on Jesse's page?  *hint*<BR>
<BR>
It is now on the BITS page. Go to products - then click on the 101 <BR>
Patrons icon, then click on the front cover for a 1:1 JPEG scan of <BR>
the front cover. It's gorgeous. Http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
> > And, with more good news,  I can confirm that Steve Jackson Games,<BR>
> > Inc have re-ordered the 101 Books which are currently out of stock at<BR>
> > Warehouse 23, and  copies of 'At Close Quarters' and '101 Patrons'<BR>
> > are set to go in the next order. Andy Lilly is compiling the order at<BR>
> > BITS HQ and hopefully you should see the products in the next month<BR>
> > or so. We'll keep you posted!<BR>
>Great! I'll order them as soon as it becomes possible. Please notify the list<BR>
>when this happens.<BR>
<BR>
Will do...<BR>
><BR>
>I just got another product idea. Since I've sent that post already, <BR>
>I'll add it<BR>
>here.<BR>
>How about another book like ACQ, but dealing with spaceship combat (including<BR>
>sensor operation and such things)?<BR>
<BR>
Well, we already have MayDay 4.1 and RPSCS V0,9 on the BITS website? <BR>
Is there something you feel could be done better than these? Do you <BR>
feel like working on one?<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >1) Would you like to see more adventures? Did you like the two we have<BR>
> >released? Did you buy them?<BR>
>Yes, id love to see more adventures, even though i didnt buy the first<BR>
>ones. I will do so soon, however. (As soon 101 Patrons and ACQ are<BR>
>available for mailorder in Europe as well - Im looking forward to that<BR>
>package already...)<BR>
<BR>
The main distributor for us in the UK is Esdevium - however, I know <BR>
that Andy has no problems talking to people overseas so long as the <BR>
quantity makes the shipping costs okay. 101 Patrons and ACQ should be <BR>
moving into the supply chain now.<BR>
<BR>
Fundamentally, sales are where we see preferences, but it takes time <BR>
to see it. Conventional wisdom is that scenarios don't sell - hence <BR>
the two we have produced are somewhat of an experiment. We <BR>
deliberately added in deckplans and ship designs, plus the other <BR>
useful stuff on playing Vargr so that he books will have a life <BR>
beyond their initial use. However, at 5 a shot ($8) they are still <BR>
pretty good Value for Money in my mind.<BR>
<BR>
> >2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks? What format<BR>
> >would you prefer? Do you want a focus on background or adventures? For<BR>
> >example, would you like to see a detailed sector worked up by BITS?<BR>
>Hmm, id love to see full detailed sectors, but i think subsector books<BR>
>would be better. They allow you to focus more on the individual worlds and<BR>
>leave more space to develop each and every one of them. As long as theyll<BR>
>contain many possible story-hooks, Ill buy them.<BR>
<BR>
We wouldn't aim to produce anything like the old Supplement 10 and <BR>
Supplement 3 for the Rim and Marches. Anything we did would have <BR>
library data, nutshell descriptions of worlds. it'd probably have <BR>
some key npcs too. The scenario hooks would be a must, as would some <BR>
101 Patrons / 101 Plots style adventure ideas. We'd probably look and <BR>
see what could come from a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
>In adventures, I would like to see many short one-shot adventures that can<BR>
>be integrated into campaigns or used to lure new players.<BR>
<BR>
This is actually two different approaches - adventures to build into <BR>
an existing campaign can be forced to be less epic than one shot <BR>
introductions. However, we do have SpaceDogs II in the pipeline..... <BR>
We do have a fair number of modules now (a cross between the old <BR>
double adventure lengths and the more campaign orientated CT <BR>
adventures).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/6/00 4:08 PM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
> > A sector workup might be nice (at least I would buy it), but perhaps better<BR>
> > yet<BR>
> > would be a book with an expanded timeline, describing important events and<BR>
> > periods in the history of humaniti.<BR>
>I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
>tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
<BR>
The 101 tagline isn't a key driver - we only tend to use it on <BR>
projects that fit a certain type of style.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> again...<BR>
<BR>
>Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> > I like this idea, but I fail to see how you can use your ubiquitous 101<BR>
> > tagline. How about "Bit's of History"? I'd buy it.<BR>
>101 history lessons<BR>
><BR>
>Written as lecture notes/handouts from Regina university. Each one <BR>
>describing a<BR>
>single important event or time period.<BR>
><BR>
>Hey, if small comments (like "Booooooring" and "Tonight is the grav-ball<BR>
>finals") were added, the book might make a great flavor text for university<BR>
>life as well.<BR>
><BR>
>How about that idea?<BR>
<BR>
Interesting - I'll pass it on...<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, what happened to the University project?<BR>
<BR>
From Rob Prior (no longer on TML):<BR>
<BR>
At 23:09 -0400 8/5/00, Robert Prior wrote:<BR>
>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
>Subject: Schools Book (for TML)<BR>
><BR>
>Ah, another backburnered project.<BR>
>I've still got my file, so if people want to send me contributions I'll<BR>
>keep adding to it. Publication "when we're ready".<BR>
><BR>
>I'm still too swamped with work to read the TML -- I've unsubbed from<BR>
>virtually all of my lists and only follow the GT playtest boards on Pyramid<BR>
>now.<BR>
<BR>
Colin (I think) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi.  My Cr.02 on the adventure subject is "More adventures like <BR>
>Space Dogs" :-)<BR>
>Lots of good flavor, several scenarios, some puns with the fun.  Good stuff<BR>
<BR>
Thanks - you'd like Space Dogs II then?<BR>
<BR>
- ----<BR>
<BR>
Final comments - BITS welcomes submissions or approaches. We have <BR>
guidelines on the web page in the archive section. Usually, the work <BR>
will be read by two of us (whoever receives it and Andy Lilly). Andy <BR>
makes the final decision as to whether to take it forward, and has to <BR>
balance BITS with real life work and family responsibilities so it <BR>
can take time from submission to printing (ACQ was 18 months or so, <BR>
101 Patrons was started in late 98, submitted with modifications in <BR>
Oct 99 and printed in May 2000).<BR>
<BR>
Fundamentally, we are trying to print what you'd like to see. We <BR>
don't have the resources of a professional company like Steve Jackson <BR>
Games, Inc, nor do we have the same time available (we're all doing <BR>
this for fun). But all being Traveller enthusiasts we try to provide <BR>
what we'd find useful, and what you'd like. So please, keep giving us <BR>
feedback.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2428<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 14 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2429<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: [BITS] Website 14 May 2000 Update/Announcement<BR>
Re: Peasants, Armorers and Lords Oh No<BR>
Review: Pitch Black<BR>
More comments on Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
RE: TML Elders<BR>
Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:15:12 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
I tried that and found that if you do then space doesn't translate<BR>
well (ie. it looks better in the existing maps). What I do now is<BR>
assume they are around 4 parsecs "high", which works well "as-is" and<BR>
that there are ten other such layers in the galactic disk - five above<BR>
and five below. That actually covers the easily navigable stars, so<BR>
I'm happy with it.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Thomas<BR>
> Jeenicke<BR>
> Sent: 13 May 2000 19:13<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: 3-D Mapping<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hi there!<BR>
><BR>
> I'm considering to make Traveller's space really<BR>
> three-dimensional for my<BR>
> next campaign.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:53:43 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
>Derrick, I havent been in on the testing of this wonderful software, <BR>
>so I dont know quite what to expect, which is why I am asking the <BR>
>questions I have. <BR>
<BR>
And I have, which is why I felt justified in giving the answer that i did to <BR>
your point. I think the important things to realise are:<BR>
1) that it is a damn sight faster than the old fashioned dice rolling & <BR>
calculator method.<BR>
<BR>
2) It is freeware, nobody has spent any money on it (except from the<BR>
limited few from the testing group). Stuart has put a lot of hard work in<BR>
his spare time (and has precious little of that left after WBD/H&E) for<BR>
no reward other than the learning of VB, and the feedback from users.<BR>
<BR>
3) Stuart is no programmer by trade. He is learning as he goes along, <BR>
and has improved vastly over the months that I've known him, but he<BR>
still doesn't program for a living.  The thing is, with little programming<BR>
knowlege, he had a go. Sure, he had his troubles, but he kept on going<BR>
even when there was no financial gain. This is what annoys me when <BR>
people make off hand remarks about peoples work. If they can slate<BR>
the work, let them re-create it themselves, and see how far they get.<BR>
<BR>
<pause for breath><BR>
<BR>
Sorry for being annoyed. I apologise if I have offended you, or anyone<BR>
else. I would normally delete what had written in situations like this, but<BR>
I think I explained exactly what I wanted to say, so I'll leave it.<BR>
<BR>
Now on to your other points... <BR>
<BR>
>I do have a question about updates to the program<BR>
>are there any plans to include a name generator for<BR>
>the planets ala what Jim Vasilakos has done with<BR>
>Galactic?<BR>
<BR>
>I dont do programming myself, but being the data packrat I am, I <BR>
>have been compiling a small list of planet names taken from books <BR>
>and long out of print stuff. its up around 1,200 names so far.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart is taking a list of future requirements on the wish list. If you would like<BR>
to see something added, I suggest you join up on the list, and state your wishes<BR>
thare. (we'll leave this list to talk about piracy or whatever...)<BR>
<BR>
I'm certain if he took you up on the requirement for a name generator, he'd<BR>
love to have a list of ready made names. Thing is, if you're talking about<BR>
naming worlds in a system, generally you'd expect the names to be related<BR>
in some way, and an abstract list might not be. But it is a worthy suggestion<BR>
non-the-less.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Again, my apologies. I hope that you can continue to enjoy H&E as much as<BR>
I do (I have become a vociferous supporter of the software over the last couple<BR>
of years - you might have noticed.)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:54:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Shimmer wrote:<BR>
>Then I think I will avoid it.  My poor p-100 would die.<BR>
<BR>
No, not really: Just lower your expectations. Generate only sub sectors<BR>
at a time, instead of sectors, and I'm sure it will be fine. I have 3 P100's<BR>
that I software test on (for work, but sometimes for play) and subsector<BR>
generation worked ok on them. (Even better still, you can generate one<BR>
system at a time)<BR>
<BR>
It really is a great piece of software, and one that I would not be without.<BR>
I just don't have the time to sit down and generate oodles of worlds to that<BR>
level of detail, so H&E does the job for me.<BR>
<BR>
Tooled up with H&E, Astrogator, and my Trading Spreadsheet, my Traveller<BR>
sessions need nothing else (except maybe players, and beer)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:04:54 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Website 14 May 2000 Update/Announcement<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> Anyway, all the trouble has been sorted out now, and the pages <BR>
> describing 101 Patrons added, including an enlarged shot of Jesse's <BR>
> excellent cover (click on the book cover on the details page to show <BR>
> this).<BR>
<BR>
Great cover!   As if Jesse needed any more ego-inflating comments...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I'll get this book (and ACQ) as soon as they show up in Warehouse 23. Hopefully<BR>
I will be able to get Alien Races 3 at the same time... even more hopefully<BR>
before summer (during which I will leave town).<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:00:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Peasants, Armorers and Lords Oh No<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>>Aside from some smiths & armoerers, there really *wasn't* any<BR>
>>"technical expertise" that made a difference.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually there was an abundance of trades that made a great deal of<BR>
> difference.  Note, depending on the materials available and location some of<BR>
> the following were locally more important that others.<BR>
<BR>
Not a *direct* difference in *battle*.<BR>
<BR>
<long list of trades ommitted><BR>
<BR>
The thing is, while you might have to import experts for some of he<BR>
trades you listed, they weren't *rare*, nor was there any concept of<BR>
keeping them away from people who might be your enemies in the future. <BR>
<BR>
> Just as an exercise try to duplicate a 12th century household item generally<BR>
> made by a tradesman or tradesmen and see how sucessful you are.  Can you<BR>
> make a wooden stave well bucket, banded in metal with a metal bail and a<BR>
> chain with hammered metal links?  There is a very nice example shown in "The<BR>
> Excavations at York, The Viking Dig" by Richard Hall.  How about some<BR>
> "simple" crafts then, can you make a basket, thatch a roof,  tan a hide,<BR>
> make woad, catch rats?<BR>
<BR>
I've been associated with the SCA for a *long* time. I know what goes<BR>
into armor, and bits and pieces about other trades. Yes, it requires<BR>
skills. But the skills *in period* were neither "rare" nor "restricted".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:19:40 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
The first part of the review contains no spoilers. I will insert spoiler space<BR>
when I feel the need to do so.<BR>
<BR>
Three days ago, this movie opened here in Sweden. I hate having to wait that<BR>
long (it took 3 months for SW1 to get here...). Because of this problem, most<BR>
of you will probably have seen this movie already (or forgotten about it).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the movie was nice. Not the best movie I've ever seen, but far from the<BR>
worst (Plan 9 holds on to that position). If you have nothing better to spend<BR>
an evening with, see this movie.<BR>
<BR>
Many plot elements have been used before, but the characters in this movie are<BR>
a bit special. They (most of them) seem a lot more human than characters in many<BR>
other movies of this type. Some time was obviously spent on making up<BR>
personalities for them.<BR>
<BR>
What else? The science part also works out quite well. I have a single<BR>
complaint, but that was only a visual error, and it had no real impact on the<BR>
plot. I will talk about this below the spoiler.<BR>
<BR>
The lighting in the movie is also very interesting. The director seems to like<BR>
colored filters, but the end result is rather nice. Many parts of the movie are<BR>
monochrome. Some parts are *really* dark (not that much of a surprise), while<BR>
other parts are very bright. Makes for interesting contrasts.<BR>
<BR>
I would give this movie a rating of 3.5 on a scale from 1-5. In other words,<BR>
slightly better than average.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
******************************** SPOILER SPACE *********************************<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
OK, lets face it. This movie is more or less yet another in the Alien-family. A<BR>
number of people are in a Bad Place full of monsters. They try to get out, but<BR>
one after another, they get killed. Who will make it?<BR>
<BR>
The positive surprise in this movie is that there is more to the characters<BR>
than you see at first glance. I especially like the assassin. At first you<BR>
suspect that the movie really is about him stalking the others on a distant<BR>
planet. Then things get worse...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I also liked the aliens in this movie. They were not as invincible as the ones<BR>
in the Alien movies. True, there are a *lot* more of them, but individually<BR>
they are defeatable by a single person (although a person with a lot of combat<BR>
experience).<BR>
<BR>
It is interesting that a lot of the visual concepts of this movie come from<BR>
dinosaurs. Both the large bones spread around in the desert and the aliens<BR>
(mostly their heads) look a lot like dinosaurs to me.<BR>
<BR>
OK, so the movie is just another bug hunt. So what? I enjoy bug hunts :-)<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
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| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
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+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:15:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: More comments on Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:21 AM 5/7/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> >How about another book like ACQ, but dealing with spaceship combat <BR>
>(including<BR>
> >sensor operation and such things)?<BR>
><BR>
>I'm still looking for a good space combat system for use with GT.  My<BR>
>personal criteria are as following:<BR>
>- - No need for very accurate map-keeping (this rules out GT's vector based<BR>
>system)<BR>
>- - High degree of gearheadedness possible (that extra .2Gs that I squeezed<BR>
>out by getting rid of the backup computer should mean something, dammit!)<BR>
<BR>
Don't these two contradict each other?  You want gearheadedness for <BR>
the ship design but no use for it in movement? Interesting....<BR>
<BR>
>- - Plausibility (not necessarily realism - it just has to feel plausible<BR>
>from a physics POV).<BR>
><BR>
>If you put out a product like that, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone wants to try writing something like this, feel free to contact us!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Personally I would like to see more adventures, though an expansion of ACQ<BR>
>to include Aliens and Vehicles in more detail would be my first choice.  I<BR>
>could see that Doug at least will be busy with his other writing at the<BR>
>moment that may be an idea for the medium term.<BR>
<BR>
ACQ does include basic vehicles and Aliens - but I'd like to see an <BR>
expansion - either on the web or as a book. A printed ACQ expansion <BR>
would depend upon sales of the ACQ's original book, and someone (Doug <BR>
or James') willingness to produce it it.<BR>
<BR>
>2nd Choice: A 101 civilian vehicles would be nice, everything from the high<BR>
>TL Rolls-Royces to minis and some heavy construction vehicles and large<BR>
>trucks would be nice.  Don't know how well they would sell but IMHO it would<BR>
>fill a huge gap in the equipment lists.<BR>
<BR>
Rob Prior's 102 vehicles (a free PDF download at BITS website) covers <BR>
a lot of these types of vehicles if I remember correctly.<BR>
<BR>
>rd Choice :  101 locations, mucho useful. Sorry can't remember who<BR>
>suggested this.<BR>
<BR>
101 Rendezvous already covers this  - or are there gaps you see in <BR>
the book? I'd be interested to know if you think we've missed stuff <BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
>I like the idea of a History book of some sort, though this could become an<BR>
>interesting Canon problem.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure the canon police can check it for us. However, I know a lot <BR>
of people don't consider BITS stuff canon...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:37:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 14:33, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not to me....if you're seriously asking. <g><BR>
<BR>
Not really. I certainly don't have a problem, though in GURPS I'm one <BR>
of the one's guilty of over-optimisation of character points, mainly <BR>
because I think that most people are better at lots of "minor" skills <BR>
than GURPS' default system allows, so I end up spreding points all over <BR>
the place, and then need high stats to be good at the primary skills.<BR>
<BR>
> GURPS, plus the BITS task system isn't bad at all to run, but personally I<BR>
> can't stand the "high stat, multitude of 1/2 point" monsters that it seems<BR>
> to breed...I'm just funny that way.  It's a disease that any character<BR>
> generation system catchs when it starts adding Stats and Skils.  The<BR>
> DGP/MT method has it's own problems, but it avoids the worse of the "stat<BR>
> inflation fever" that TNE and T4 caught.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't find TNE as bad as GURPS or T4 (only played that once, <BR>
though). High stat + skill-1 only gives an OK skill in TNE unless the <BR>
stat is very high, whereas in GURPS it can give a quite decent skill <BR>
level. BTW one solution in GURPS is to give out higher starting points, <BR>
especially if you make some of them experience points so stats cost <BR>
double to raise with them , or just put a cap on how much you can spend <BR>
on stats.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:37:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 1:37, Nattrass wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >> >><BR>
> >> >> One thing, though - these things can protect up to 140m3 of volume,<BR>
> >> >> so they could be quite useful as insect/beastie repellants for<BR>
> >> >> exploration base camps. You'd just have to alter the settings a bit<BR>
> >> >> (and not use EPGs on the mozzie stopper version).<BR>
> >> >><BR>
> >> >><BR>
> >> ><BR>
> >> > Depends on the size of the mozzie...<BR>
> >> <BR>
> <BR>
> You may also wish to consider the effect on the poor soldier who forgets<BR>
> the field is there and goes out to water the dragon in the middle of the<BR>
> night...<BR>
> <BR>
> also, where does the rules for the damage inflicted by a ESA system on a<BR>
> person appear... I considered looking into transferring it accross as<BR>
> though it were a weapon of similar discharge energy, but through all my<BR>
> searchings I haven't found any hard rules<BR>
<BR>
There aren't any. If you consider the discharge to be similar in nature <BR>
to a PAW you get (in TNE terms): [Discharge Energy]^1/2 x 5 = DV. For a <BR>
TL15 AV1 system the DE is 0.14MJ, for DV=2 (the same as a 9mm <BR>
Parabellum). For a TL12 AV 24 unit (weighing 1.7 tons), and suitable <BR>
for an G-Carrier or such would have a DE of 4MJ and DV=10 (about the <BR>
same as a .50BMG round).<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't use laser stats (gives too good a penetration for big zaps, <BR>
and too little for small ones), or the plasma/fusion stats (too much <BR>
damage). Likewise the smallarms formula gives too much damage, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
Another point is that metal armour would stop almost all the damage, <BR>
though against a big zap it could well fuse solid at the joints as the <BR>
current earths out through it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:37:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 21:15, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sun, 14 May 2000, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > On 14 May 00, at 12:09, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > What happens to Electrostatic Armour in close formation? do the<BR>
> > > tanks/troopers zap each other ?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > According to FFS1 ESA armour's sensors are set to only trigger the zap<BR>
> > effect when an incoming object fits within fairly tight size/velocity<BR>
> > parameters, so no they don't.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm, I'll have a 'grenade', please Bob.<BR>
<BR>
That had occured to me, too. This is especially the case in urban/close <BR>
country conflict, as if the ESA system is set to work on grenades you <BR>
can make it chew a lot of power/charges by throwing rocks at it. Also <BR>
if it has a relatively slow recycle rate, as many will you can throw a <BR>
rock at it to discharge it, and then throw the real thing while it <BR>
can't discharge. However ESA works against the jet of HEAT warheads, <BR>
not the unexploded warhead itself, so maybe it would ignore the rocks <BR>
and only discharge once the grenade had detonated. Still to throwers, <BR>
thorwing 0.5s apart should work.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.<BR>
<BR>
Some quick checks (all from TNE/FFS1) the biggest practical HEAT <BR>
grenade would weigh about 1kg, so 6cm diameter. This gives (at TL9+) PV <BR>
= 6 x 12 -7 = 65C. A PV65C warhead will go through 35cm of hard steel, <BR>
12cm of composite laminate, 9cm of crystaliron, 5cm of SD or 2.5cm of <BR>
BSD. This will do nothing vs. an Intrepid, but most other vehicles will <BR>
be upset. To stop it with an ESA system would take a DE of 20MJ at TL9, <BR>
16MJ at TL10, 14MJ at TL11, 13MJ at TL12 and 11MJ at TL14. A 13MJ TL12 <BR>
system weighs 5.2 tons and requires 2.6MW of power per shot in each 5s <BR>
turn (or a 15.6kg PPC cartridge). A battery good for 72 discharges at 1 <BR>
per 5s weighs 0.693 tons, for a total weight of 5.89 tons. At TL12 <BR>
(using Superdense) this same mass would give a vehicle in the G-Carrier <BR>
to Trepedia range armour in the AV2-3 range, so it's probably a good <BR>
investment.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:37:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 13:54, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >In MT, at least, you've forgotten the scale factors (that FFS1 doesn't<BR>
> >use). Large power-plants (especially fusion ones) are lots more efficient<BR>
> >than small ones.<BR>
> <BR>
> >IMO the 1 EP = 250MW is too high for other reasons - like that it means<BR>
> >that just about everything in Traveller from HG onwards uses a phenomenal<BR>
> >amout of power compared to the real world (barring thrusters, HEPlaR,<BR>
> >etc).<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Right, I hadn't taken that scale efficiency into account.  However, scale<BR>
> efficiency is for "large fusion power plants." If  "large" is defined I<BR>
> missed it.  Does the power plant for a 400dt Subbie qualify as large? <BR>
<BR>
Form memory in MT the scale efficiencies start at a base output of <BR>
50MW, though I can't recall whether that's for the best multiplier or <BR>
not. The table's on the same page as the powerplant tables in the MT <BR>
starship construction rules.<BR>
 <BR>
> IAC, my...not so hidden...point matches with Rupert's second paragraph. <BR>
> Last week I tried to design the same ship using B2, HG, FFS and FFS2 and<BR>
> couldn't really do it, although FFS2 came close. One thing that stood out<BR>
> was how much larger power plants got after B2, and how much more power<BR>
> hungry everything seemed to be (excepting HEPlaR and thrusters and the<BR>
> efforts we took in FFS to lower power requirements to reasonable levels).<BR>
> <BR>
> FFS2's scale effiecencies are a *heck* of a lot more reasonable, IMO. For<BR>
> the sort of power plant in a PC-class ship the SE is going to usually be<BR>
> 1.21, or 7.26 Mw/m3.<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't know, as I don't do FFS2 (if only because I was too pooor to <BR>
buy it when it was released, was still refusing to spend money on IG <BR>
products, blah, blah, blah).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:49:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
At 17:08 -0400 14/5/00, Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
>Well, I just re-checked Starports, and there AREN'T any shots of a Blakeway<BR>
>in it.  The illo that's with the Blakeway deckplans & info is the wrong<BR>
>illo.  Refer to the JTAS issue with the Blakeway, or hit my site at<BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/blakeway.htm to see the<BR>
>difference.  The ship that's in Starports is a normal Sulie named "Beccaria"<BR>
>that I created for Derek Stanley's Confederation of Nightrim PBIRC game<BR>
<BR>
I've got the JTAS piccie - but (IIRC) it's a side front shot, not a <BR>
back shot. Problem is, in greyscale and that small I can't see the <BR>
shots in the glory they deserve. It would have surprised me if you <BR>
had missed that detail though...<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:46:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
At 17:08 -0400 14/5/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>wrote:<BR>
> > *Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
>The Cornered Rats _ALWAYS_ make cross-platform<BR>
>games.  When they created WarBirds in 1994/5, it<BR>
>was done simultaneously for PC and Mac, and it has<BR>
>continued to be so.  Their Mac Heads are super-dedicated.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't speak for them, but I certainly expect a Mac,<BR>
>and possibly a Linux, version (allowing you to interact<BR>
>with PC players at the same time, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Dom dances with joy.<BR>
<BR>
Then he thinks he'll need to get ADSL.<BR>
<BR>
Then he contemplates the nightmare that is if the software needs a <BR>
G3+ Mac not just a PPC 603e 200.<BR>
<BR>
Smiles still.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
*AMOUR* - by Brian Patten<BR>
She said I was a wolf in sheep's clothing.<BR>
Not true.<BR>
I was a lamb, in armour.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:44:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
At 17:08 -0400 14/5/00, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>GURPS, plus the BITS task system isn't bad at all to run, but <BR>
>personally I can't stand the "high stat, multitude of 1/2 point" <BR>
>monsters that it seems to breed...I'm just funny that way.  It's a <BR>
>disease that any character generation system catchs when it starts <BR>
>adding Stats and Skils.  The DGP/MT method has it's own problems, <BR>
>but it avoids the worse of the "stat inflation fever" that TNE and <BR>
>T4 caught.<BR>
<BR>
There again, if you use the T4.1 task levels (on the BITS task sheet <BR>
as they were published on the ref's screen) and the 'It's Harder than <BR>
I thought' rule proposed for T5 then those who rely on high stats <BR>
have some problems.<BR>
<BR>
IHTIT summarises as:<BR>
- -------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:20:08 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: The "Its Harder Than I Thought" rule (Was: What's the News on T5?)<BR>
<BR>
The IHTIT rule is neat and simple. If your skill isn't equal to the number<BR>
of (whole) dice being rolled, then the level of difficulty increases by two.<BR>
Thus when your skill 1 dex 15 med student decides to try brain surgery<BR>
they all of a sudden find that their lack of skill makes things a whole lot<BR>
harder. The only modifier is that JoT can be used to "bump up" a skill<BR>
for the purposes of avoiding the IHTIT rule (ie your skill 1, dex 15 med<BR>
student can avoid the penalty if they have sufficent JoT skill to bring<BR>
their skill up to the requisite level, but you're still only skill 1 when<BR>
making the roll).<BR>
<BR>
The down side of the IHTIT rule is that it makes the half dice rather<BR>
more neccessary (otherwise skill 2 characters get hit on a difficult<BR>
task). Still you can get around this by making the IHTIT rule kick in<BR>
when the number of dice exceeds skill by more than 1.<BR>
<BR>
However in my games I still use my orignal system. I don't rate tasks as<BR>
average, difficult, formidable etc, just by the number of dice to be rolled.<BR>
Thus a player gets told its a 2d or 2.5d or 3d task etc. And the IHTIT gives<BR>
a penalty equal to the number of skill levels short the character is. Thus<BR>
a skill 1 character attempting a 5d task gets it bumped up by four levels<BR>
(making it a 9d task). Its a little more complex than the T5 version, but<BR>
over the two years or so I've been running T4/5, I've found the extra level<BR>
of complexity doesn't slow play down.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
     Listening to way to much Dave Brubeck<BR>
<BR>
- -------<BR>
<BR>
Prop. Brubeks?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:38:05 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Elders<BR>
<BR>
If I'd ever planned to show the rear of the ship, I would've remodelled it.<BR>
However, since I DIDN'T plan to show the rear of the Blakeway, all I did was<BR>
use my existing Sulie model, remove the turret (but left the hardpoint), and<BR>
re-texture, which is a very easy task for a Sulie.  The big giveaway for<BR>
ship ident is the missing turret.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:50 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: TML Elders<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 17:08 -0400 14/5/00, Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
> >Well, I just re-checked Starports, and there AREN'T any shots of<BR>
> a Blakeway<BR>
> >in it.  The illo that's with the Blakeway deckplans & info is the wrong<BR>
> >illo.  Refer to the JTAS issue with the Blakeway, or hit my site at<BR>
> >http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/blakeway.htm<BR>
>  to see the<BR>
> >difference.  The ship that's in Starports is a normal Sulie<BR>
> named "Beccaria"<BR>
> >that I created for Derek Stanley's Confederation of Nightrim PBIRC game<BR>
><BR>
> I've got the JTAS piccie - but (IIRC) it's a side front shot, not a<BR>
> back shot. Problem is, in greyscale and that small I can't see the<BR>
> shots in the glory they deserve. It would have surprised me if you<BR>
> had missed that detail though...<BR>
><BR>
> Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2429<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2430<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Looking for Book 07<BR>
Looking for High Guard... in Java...<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Traveller Online<BR>
Speculative Trade in Java<BR>
Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
The Old Star Wars Thread<BR>
RE: Request for review<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Where can I find WBD/H&E<BR>
Where can I find WBD/H&E<BR>
RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:46:44 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
What is the relationship between Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
and Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi?  Surely there must be<BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming CT + MT noble rank system (baron, marquis,<BR>
count, duke):<BR>
 - Every Imperial world gets a Marquis?<BR>
 - There is a Count for every groups of worlds<BR>
within a subsector?  (So, at least 2 counts to every<BR>
Duke?)<BR>
 - Every Subsector gets a Duke? (except maybe very<BR>
low density subsectors, such as Corridor, Delphi,<BR>
Trojan Reaches, Reft, etc., where one Duke might<BR>
govern the whole area?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm interested in putting together a list of all the nobles of<BR>
the Spinward Marches (and as much of the rest of the<BR>
Imperium as possible), at least according to canon.<BR>
I think it helps to incorporate them into the landgrab and<BR>
it would just be neat.  A broader "who's who" of the<BR>
Spinward Marches would be nice as well.  As well<BR>
as a "Fighting Units of the Spinward Marches."  I consider<BR>
GT:BtC canon for this purpose<BR>
<BR>
I've sketched some notes, as well as made a diagram<BR>
of the Alkhalikoi dynasty at:<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:52:45 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Looking for Book 07<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have an extra copy of Book 07 Merchant Prince they would care to<BR>
part with?<BR>
My copy has come up missing.  LMK if anyone can help me out.  Thanx in<BR>
advance.<BR>
<BR>
ANdy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:46:19 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Looking for High Guard... in Java...<BR>
<BR>
I know there are Java programmers out there.  Do some of<BR>
you like High Guard?  At least the Universal Ship Profile?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the USP is one great way to encode ship information<BR>
in a small space (another way is to just use a hashtable...).<BR>
ANYHOW, I'm thinking High Guard is the place to begin for<BR>
starship registries in Traveller On-Line.  If anyone's done<BR>
this or would like to do it, please contact me.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
downport@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:53:07 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > My suggestion would be to simply use the system for converting<BR>
> > Traveller characters into GURPS charecters given at the back<BR>
> > of GURPS Traveller 2nd ed in reverse. <BR>
> > This approach will, however, tend to reduce the effectiveness<BR>
> > of point optimized GURPS charecters with high stats and a <BR>
> > few points each in a number of skills.<BR>
<BR>
> And this is a bad thing?<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily, this was a comment not a criticism.<BR>
<BR>
If however you are attempting to _faithfully_ translate a character<BR>
from GURPS to CT then the CT charecter ought to have similar<BR>
chances of success at tasks of similar difficulty as the GURPS<BR>
charecter did or you have not properly reproduced the GURPS<BR>
character.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that Cheryl was asking about NPC's. If you convert a<BR>
DEX 14 IQ 12 GURPS charecter with 4 point in Guns/Pistol GTL <BR>
10 skill giving them Guns/Pistol GTL 10 skill 18 into a CT <BR>
charecter with Pistol-1, per the conversion rules, than the <BR>
NPC will now be a much less effective Pistol shot, hence the <BR>
conversion is poor. The GURPS NPC was pretty good at shooting<BR>
the PC's but the converted to CT NPC won't be.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:57:56 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Ok,  unfortunately I cannot run IE on my system because it crashes my computer<BR>
fairly quickly and regularly.  So that makes the whole program pointless.  I<BR>
find it ironic that IE will not run on Win95 v1.  It sucks.<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> No, not really: Just lower your expectations. Generate only sub sectors<BR>
> at a time, instead of sectors, and I'm sure it will be fine. I have 3 P100's<BR>
> that I software test on (for work, but sometimes for play) and subsector<BR>
> generation worked ok on them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:24:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>I also liked the aliens in this movie. They were not as invincible as the<BR>
ones<BR>
>in the Alien movies. True, there are a *lot* more of them, but individually<BR>
>they are defeatable by a single person (although a person with a lot of<BR>
combat<BR>
>experience).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A whole planet<BR>
of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows you how tough Marines are.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:46:45 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller Online<BR>
<BR>
I crashed before I got to book mark the site.  What was the URL again?<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:14:45 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Speculative Trade in Java<BR>
<BR>
Ahem... well, I don't suppose anybody has done/wants to<BR>
do Book 2's Speculative Trade in Java?  I started on it<BR>
but just don't have the energy to do it... maybe later.<BR>
(I'm worried that "maybe later" may become "maybe never").<BR>
<BR>
What I'm thinking about is a class which represents one<BR>
lot of spec cargo, including<BR>
   cargo name<BR>
   cargo price<BR>
   quantity (dtons)<BR>
  <BR>
In addition, I was thinking of a pair of Hashtables which<BR>
held <BR>
  purchase DMs by trade code<BR>
  resale DMs by trade code<BR>
<BR>
PLUS, there would be logic which, given a world's trade <BR>
codes (say all embedded in a String) would apply the<BR>
applicable DMs and calculate the asking price for the<BR>
cargo.  Likewise a similar method for the resale price.<BR>
<BR>
Nice and self-contained.  Operates in a semi-vacuum.<BR>
Hermetically sealed.  Well?<BR>
<BR>
Anybody?  Anybody?  Beuller?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:23:33 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
FYI, I can't get TwistedPixel to install.  I don't have regsvr32 or<BR>
regvr32 (it's spelled both ways in the directions) apparently.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:05:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: The Old Star Wars Thread<BR>
<BR>
<Background><BR>
I just bought my first house after years of dorm and apartment living. My<BR>
parent's with great glee dropped boxes of stuff that's been stored at their<BR>
place off with me. It's not all mine, I swear!<BR>
</Background><BR>
<Story><BR>
In a box not opened since being sealed in 84, I found both parts, original<BR>
printing, giant size, full color, Marvel Special Edition, Star Wars<BR>
Collector's edition of Star Wars (An official adaptation of the 20th Century<BR>
Fox blockbuster movie).<BR>
<BR>
It does not talk about it being episode IV, A new hope, but it does have<BR>
Luke watching the battle and then talking to Biggs.<BR>
<BR>
Sadly, these have not been maintained in mint, near mint, or even pretty<BR>
good shape. :( If they had, I'll be I could fund my purchase of all the<BR>
reprints. :)<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:11:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
If you'll send me copies, I'll be happy to. :)<BR>
<BR>
I might have 101 Patrons on order. If it arrives while I'm thinking about it<BR>
I'll post one.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 2:15 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hello!<BR>
<BR>
I would like to request that someone writes a review of ACQ and of<BR>
101 Patrons, and either posts it to the TML or to Freelance<BR>
Traveller!  I used to do this myself, but I'm too involved in these<BR>
now to do it fairly. I suspect JTAS will have a review of Patrons<BR>
sometime, but if anyone has one of the first copies, please, let us<BR>
know what you think! It drives what we do next!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:14:38 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/14/00 7:43:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> What is the relationship between Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
>  and Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi?  Surely there must be<BR>
>  one.<BR>
<BR>
I believe the TNE canon had Norris' semi-clone daughter marrying one<BR>
of Strephon's offspring.  I can't be sure since I don't have the Regency<BR>
Sourcebook, but there's a pretty broad hint in _Survival Margin_ to that<BR>
effect.  That doesn't explain why the two have the same middle name,<BR>
of course.  Maybe Norris is descended from Core nobility and "Aella"<BR>
is a fairly common name among such families. . .<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Assuming CT + MT noble rank system (baron, marquis,<BR>
>  count, duke):<BR>
>   - Every Imperial world gets a Marquis?<BR>
>   - There is a Count for every groups of worlds<BR>
>  within a subsector?  (So, at least 2 counts to every<BR>
>  Duke?)<BR>
>   - Every Subsector gets a Duke? (except maybe very<BR>
>  low density subsectors, such as Corridor, Delphi,<BR>
>  Trojan Reaches, Reft, etc., where one Duke might<BR>
>  govern the whole area?)<BR>
<BR>
I use the following as a rule of thumb.  Your mileage may vary.<BR>
<BR>
1 Archduke per Domain<BR>
    - Emperor serves as Archduke of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
1 Sector Duke per sector<BR>
    - Except for sectors in which the Imperium only owns a small<BR>
piece of territory<BR>
<BR>
1 Duke per subsector<BR>
    - Except for subsectors in which the Imperium only owns a few<BR>
worlds or settlement is extremely thin<BR>
    - Sector Duke is always one of the subsector Dukes (i.e. there<BR>
are a maximum of 16 Dukes per sector, not 17)<BR>
<BR>
1 Count per 4-6 worlds<BR>
    - Count is associated with one of the most populous/prosperous<BR>
worlds in the county<BR>
    - Original canon says 1 Count per 2-3 worlds, but you can easily<BR>
get more Counts than Marquises that way<BR>
    - Presumably a scattering of low-population worlds won't have a<BR>
Count of its own<BR>
<BR>
Planetary Nobles<BR>
    - Every Imperial member world with at least 1 million or so population<BR>
has an Imperial noble<BR>
    - This noble is a Marquis if the world has an A or B class starport and<BR>
at least 100 million or so people, otherwise he is a Baron<BR>
    - Small-population worlds have Imperial legates, governors or viceroys<BR>
instead of nobles, captive governments are represented by the noble for<BR>
their metropole worlds, military-rule systems have no planetary nobles<BR>
of their own although there may be petty nobility present<BR>
<BR>
The Baronage<BR>
    - On high-population worlds, there is another Baron for every 300-400<BR>
million people<BR>
    - These are people who got patents of nobility for some exceptional<BR>
level of service but weren't given direct responsibility for a member world<BR>
    - I call these the "petty nobility"<BR>
<BR>
Knights & Baronets<BR>
    - Members of noble families who aren't themselves titled are usually<BR>
styled as Baronets<BR>
    - Lots and lots of Knights and Baronets for every peer<BR>
<BR>
Rank Nobles<BR>
    - Mostly these are Knights, Baronets, or Barons and so can be<BR>
swept under the rug with the petty nobility<BR>
    - May be an occasional Marquis or higher in the mix, especially<BR>
in the vicinity of Capital or an Archduke's court<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  I'm interested in putting together a list of all the nobles of<BR>
>  the Spinward Marches (and as much of the rest of the<BR>
>  Imperium as possible), at least according to canon.<BR>
>  I think it helps to incorporate them into the landgrab and<BR>
>  it would just be neat.  A broader "who's who" of the<BR>
>  Spinward Marches would be nice as well.  As well<BR>
>  as a "Fighting Units of the Spinward Marches."  I consider<BR>
>  GT:BtC canon for this purpose<BR>
<BR>
I'm doing something similar for parts of the Solomani Rim.  Also,<BR>
Rim of Fire will mention a *lot* of nobles of the Rim by name with<BR>
thumbnail sketches of family history and political position.  The<BR>
Archduke (of course), all the Dukes, and a smattering of lesser<BR>
nobles.  You'll probably be able to fill out the Rim pretty well, if<BR>
you regard GT material as canon.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  I've sketched some notes, as well as made a diagram<BR>
>  of the Alkhalikoi dynasty at:<BR>
>  http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. . .<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:25:26 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>Yup.  There are "international waters" and there are "international<BR>
>waters".  The Missippi River is an international water all the way<BR>
>up into Minnesota.  Offshore, outside the territorial limit (which used<BR>
>to be 3 and is now 12 miles), there is the Exclusive Economic Zone<BR>
>(it used to be a bit more complicated with coastal states having the<BR>
>exploitation rights out as far as the water was 200meters deep or less,<BR>
>or where it was feasible to exploit them, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
The New Utopia project (http://www.new-utopia.com plans on building a <BR>
country west of the Cayman Islands - 19N, 84W has a seamount<BR>
with water less than 1000m deep, they think they can put a platform<BR>
there and make it livable.<BR>
<BR>
They selected a location over 100 miles from the nearest natural dry<BR>
land, on the theory that this will make their new country independent.<BR>
Significant, since they intent their major source of income to come from<BR>
gambling, off-shore banking, genetics research, and other activities<BR>
they plan on regulating a bit differently than other countries do.<BR>
<BR>
Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:41:25 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 PM -0400 5/14/00, Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>>Yup.  There are "international waters" and there are "international<BR>
>>waters".  The Missippi River is an international water all the way<BR>
>>up into Minnesota.  Offshore, outside the territorial limit (which used<BR>
>>to be 3 and is now 12 miles), there is the Exclusive Economic Zone<BR>
>>(it used to be a bit more complicated with coastal states having the<BR>
>>exploitation rights out as far as the water was 200meters deep or less,<BR>
>>or where it was feasible to exploit them, etc.).<BR>
><BR>
>The New Utopia project (http://www.new-utopia.com plans on building a<BR>
>country west of the Cayman Islands - 19N, 84W has a seamount<BR>
>with water less than 1000m deep, they think they can put a platform<BR>
>there and make it livable.<BR>
><BR>
>They selected a location over 100 miles from the nearest natural dry<BR>
>land, on the theory that this will make their new country independent.<BR>
>Significant, since they intent their major source of income to come from<BR>
>gambling, off-shore banking, genetics research, and other activities<BR>
>they plan on regulating a bit differently than other countries do.<BR>
><BR>
>Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
>subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
>country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
<BR>
If they build a platform in someone's resource management area, they<BR>
may have to abide by certain rules.  I'd be really nervous living<BR>
on a platform in the open ocean as an completely independent entity.<BR>
Any country or anyone with a ship and some guns could come by and<BR>
take over.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:55:47 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/15/00 at 10:37 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
I agree that people are more competent at a multitude of little<BR>
things than any of the systems can give you.  The way to handle<BR>
that, IMO, is to let them have a default competence in all those<BR>
skills.  In CT, for example, the Ref could just let the player roll<BR>
against a number for tasks even if they didn't have any skills in<BR>
that area..."Everyone around here can drive, so for this task just<BR>
roll 6+ on 2d6 and if you have Wheeled Vehicle skill just add it<BR>
in."<BR>
<BR>
>I didn't find TNE as bad as GURPS or T4 (only played that once,  though).<BR>
<BR>
No, TNE wasn't as bad because the Stat started lower and topped out<BR>
at 13.  The skills came closer to matching the Stat in the asset,<BR>
and the divide by 2/4/8 helped with the perception of that too.<BR>
<BR>
>High stat + skill-1 only gives an OK skill in TNE unless the  stat is<BR>
>very high, whereas in GURPS it can give a quite decent skill  level. BTW<BR>
>one solution in GURPS is to give out higher starting points,  especially<BR>
>if you make some of them experience points so stats cost  double to raise<BR>
>with them , or just put a cap on how much you can spend  on stats.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, the way to deal with GURPS is to add two more Attributes...like<BR>
EDU and SOC...<g> Only half joking, GRUPS depends too heavily on 2<BR>
of it's 4...and don't link Attributes to Skills as tightly.<BR>
<BR>
Hum, say you can raise Attributes as per normal, but you get no<BR>
benefit from them in skills or defaults above 12.  So, if you want<BR>
to pump 80 (16) points in to Arnold's ST you can, but he only gets<BR>
benefit of 12 for ST defaults and ST based skills and only on<BR>
straight strength tasks will his 16 do him any good.  Now your smart<BR>
player will see more benefit in putting points into the skills<BR>
rather than into the Stats.<BR>
<BR>
Or you could just double the cost of Attributes above 10...that<BR>
might do it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:10:41 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 11:44 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>There again, if you use the T4.1 task levels (on the BITS task sheet  as<BR>
>they were published on the ref's screen) and the 'It's Harder than  I<BR>
>thought' rule proposed for T5 then those who rely on high stats  have<BR>
>some problems.<BR>
<BR>
You should *know* by now that I like the T4.1 task levels (pretty<BR>
much)...except for the .5d <g>...and IHTIT "pretty much requires"<BR>
it."  I even like the 2/3/4/5 die task resolution method...it's just<BR>
that darn half die I don't like! <BR>
<BR>
Tell you what, if you like half dice then I have an alternative for<BR>
you to consider.  What about *everytime* you get a skill level roll<BR>
a d3?  Level 1 would produce a Skill of 1, 2, or 3, with an expected<BR>
value of 2.  Level 2 would produce a Skill of 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, with<BR>
the EV being 4.  Level 3 would produce a Skill of 3 to 9, EV of 6,<BR>
and so on.  Now you don't need to 2.5d for Difficult and can go<BR>
straight 2/3/4/5/6/7 d6.  ;-p<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:55:16 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long))<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 21:41, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If they build a platform in someone's resource management area, they<BR>
> may have to abide by certain rules.  I'd be really nervous living<BR>
> on a platform in the open ocean as an completely independent entity.<BR>
> Any country or anyone with a ship and some guns could come by and<BR>
> take over.<BR>
<BR>
That already applies to a lot of small pacific island nations, so <BR>
what's the difference?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:00:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
On 14 May 00, at 19:46, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've sketched some notes, as well as made a diagram<BR>
> of the Alkhalikoi dynasty at:<BR>
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
I thought that Margaret got her intelligence from the Tukera network <BR>
_because_ she was married to Lord Blaine Tukera, which would make him <BR>
(or another unmentioned relative) head of Tukera, not Margaret.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:11:17 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Where can I find WBD/H&E<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
2) It is freeware, nobody has spent any money on it (except from the<BR>
limited few from the testing group). Stuart has put a lot of hard workin<BR>
his spare time (and has precious little of that left after WBD/H&amp;E)for<BR>
no reward other than the learning of VB, and the feedback from users.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:11:27 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Where can I find WBD/H&E<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
2) It is freeware, nobody has spent any money on it (except from the<BR>
limited few from the testing group). Stuart has put a lot of hard workin<BR>
his spare time (and has precious little of that left after WBD/H&amp;E)for<BR>
no reward other than the learning of VB, and the feedback from users.<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:57:21 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>Subject: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
...<BR>
>Right, I hadn't taken that scale efficiency into account.  However, scale<BR>
efficiency<BR>
>is for "large fusion power plants." If  "large" is defined I missed it.<BR>
Does the <BR>
>power plant for a 400dt Subbie qualify as large? <BR>
<BR>
  Striker design charts; 14m^3 or larger. Convenient coincidence, yes? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:11:08 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
My short on this is that it was the classic shipwreck in space; and a<BR>
good source for a (already done) Traveller adventure.  It was an<BR>
enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at a drive-in.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:13:56 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
<BR>
In case anyone missed the first post of this or is new to the list.<BR>
<BR>
Next Saturday:<BR>
<BR>
The date for the next San Jose (near 101 & I-680) Traveller Meet will be<BR>
May 20.  <BR>
<BR>
We'll start at 11:00 and have the usual format.<BR>
<BR>
Games:  Battle Rider<BR>
Evening Game: Traveller RPG, assorted board games<BR>
<BR>
Pass the news on to anyone who is interested.  For more information<BR>
email me at:<BR>
travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
<BR>
Hope to see you there:<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:06:27 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 05/14/00 at 09:57 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>>Subject: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
>...<BR>
>>Right, I hadn't taken that scale efficiency into account.  However, scale<BR>
>efficiency<BR>
>>is for "large fusion power plants." If  "large" is defined I missed it.<BR>
>Does the <BR>
>>power plant for a 400dt Subbie qualify as large? <BR>
<BR>
>  Striker design charts; 14m^3 or larger. Convenient coincidence, yes? :)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, convenient describes it. <g><BR>
<BR>
I think I'll stick with FFS2's numbers. OTOH, I'd like PP's to more closely match B2's than HG's or later.  I know some of you folks swear by HG, but to me it's B2 for simple and one/both of the FFS's for complex. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:06:35 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My short on this is that it was the classic shipwreck in space; and a<BR>
> good source for a (already done) Traveller adventure.  It was an<BR>
> enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at a drive-in.<BR>
><BR>
> Kristian<BR>
<BR>
Drive-in? they still exist? I think the number of drive-ins in Australia<BR>
can be counted on one hand...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:12:05 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Hi Jens!<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> > There is one thing about 3D mapping that I discovered when I made up a<BR>
> > subsector for my own 3D approach: Jump routes. In 2D, a simple look at<BR>
> > the map tells you how to get anywhere on the map with your jump-1 or<BR>
> > jump-2 etc ship. But in 3D, it is not that simple at all. Now imagine<BR>
> > what to do with longer trade routes, including several systems along the<BR>
> > way!<BR>
> <BR>
> I actually managed to solve this problem!<BR>
> <BR>
> http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/tl9-jumps.jpg<BR>
(a jpg that shows Sol and surroundings cnnected via jump-1 and jump-2<BR>
liones which are of different thickness)<BR>
<BR>
I like it. But what to do if you switch subsectors or the campaign<BR>
changes place to the border between two subsectors. You will have to<BR>
make all those jump connection maps again- sounds like a lot of work. <BR>
<BR>
> The map contains all the jump routes possible using my house rules* for 3-D<BR>
> jumpspace. By adding some color coding to a map like this, it will be very<BR>
> readable.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> * A single jump can cover (4+jump rating) light years. A double jump (jumping<BR>
> to empty space, then onwards to a star) can cover 150% of this in total. Longer<BR>
> jumps are not possible. For more details, see my house rules page<BR>
> ( http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/houserules.html )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I like those house rules. A simple solution fot the "cubic range<BR>
increase" problem.<BR>
 <BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2431</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2431<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter Submissions<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
RE: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies  (long))<BR>
Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Dos software<BR>
Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:18:34 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A whole planet<BR>
> of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows you how tough Marines are.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the Aliens were certainly not defeatable by hand and knife  :-)<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:24:33 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter Submissions<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
On Sat, 13 May 2000 01:18:44 -0400, I domnloaded the following<BR>
webpage <http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter/>:<BR>
<BR>
>                     [1]GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter<BR>
<BR>
>                              [nocover-trav.gif]<BR>
<BR>
>    GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter<BR>
<BR>
> GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter Module Submission Guidelines<BR>
<BR>
Thinking of something original is going to be quite the challange. I<BR>
have a few questions about some of these guidelines.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>     3. Submissions must include:<BR>
>          1. Description of the hull (streamlined vs. unstreamlined,<BR>
>             armor, surface features)<BR>
<BR>
How does one design an *un*streamlined cylinder?  Can non-standard<BR>
hull designs with the same connecting interfaces but different<BR>
shapes and/or sizes be submitted? (I'm thinking of a Unity style<BR>
multiple connection module as a cheap space station construction<BR>
component.)<BR>
<BR>
>          2. Complete listing of each construction module used.<BR>
>             Construction modules can be drawn from any official GURPS<BR>
>             Traveller publications, including the core rulebook, Star<BR>
>             Mercs, Far Trader, First In, and Starports.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Space 3rd edition Chapter 8 (p.107-132) has some starship<BR>
module designs that are either unpowered, use negligable power, or<BR>
actually provide power. As long as all the appropriate Traveller TL<BR>
requirements are met, could these component modules be used? (Too<BR>
bad GT: Starships isn't out yet; it's module list would make things<BR>
much easier. ;))<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>          7. A rough deck plan should be given as well. Acceptable formats<BR>
>             are .BMP, .GIF, .JPG, .PSD, .PCX, .PNG, .TIF, and .TGA. If<BR>
>             you cannot create a deckplan, at the very least include a<BR>
>             written description of the layout of the module. To<BR>
>             facilitate this, we have prodivded a blank layout.<BR>
<BR>
>               Module deckplans (1/4" = 1 yard scale)<BR>
>                       [3]150DPI .gif [59K]<BR>
>                       [4]300DPI .gif [134K]<BR>
<BR>
Given the low ceiling height, how many hexes per internal space in<BR>
the cutter module?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>    3. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter/img/modl150.gif<BR>
>    4. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter/img/modl300.gif<BR>
<BR>
Could someone please convert these files into black-and-white bitmap<BR>
(.BMP) format and send them to me? The only Windows computer I have<BR>
access to is my mother's, and she won't buy any graphics programs or<BR>
let me download and run any freeware from the internet. This leaves<BR>
me with Paint and bitmaps, which I could convert to .JPG format with<BR>
her Netscape Composer. (Yes, I *know* that's pathetic, but so is my<BR>
life. :( ) I could also use B&W bitmap image files for some of the<BR>
more common standard components (ex. chairs, beds, tables, freshers,<BR>
consoles, iris valves, hatches, stairs, air rafts, etc.) on the same<BR>
scale as the module deckplans so I could copy-and-past them, but I<BR>
can try drawing them freehand it necessary.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |    Tristero catches the high kumquat. FNORD!     |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 01:30:07 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 14 May 00, at 19:46, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I've sketched some notes, as well as made a diagram<BR>
> > of the Alkhalikoi dynasty at:<BR>
> > http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
><BR>
> I thought that Margaret got her intelligence from the Tukera network<BR>
> _because_ she was married to Lord Blaine Tukera, which would make him<BR>
> (or another unmentioned relative) head of Tukera, not Margaret.<BR>
<BR>
I think both Survival Margin and MT:Imperial Encyclopedia<BR>
describe Margaret as head of Tukera, the megacorp.  For all<BR>
we know, Count Blaine Tukera is an incompetent dilettante,<BR>
and though capable of being the 'head' of the family, not able<BR>
to govern one of the largest megacorps in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:35:27 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> I like it. But what to do if you switch subsectors or the campaign<BR>
> changes place to the border between two subsectors. You will have to<BR>
> make all those jump connection maps again- sounds like a lot of work. <BR>
<BR>
Well, the map I have designed so far covers all of the travellable (?) space.<BR>
My thought was just to include all reachable stars in the map. Thus, the map<BR>
does not cover a subsector as such.<BR>
<BR>
The only problem I can see is that it is possible to place stars in 3-D in such<BR>
a way as to make them hard to place on a 2-D map of this type (you have to<BR>
have some really long lines to solve it). This is especially true when the<BR>
maximum jump distance is long.<BR>
<BR>
For example, if you look at my map again, consider what happens when going to<BR>
TL-11 (jump rating 2, maximum jump distance 9ly). Alpha Canis Minoris (Sirius),<BR>
as well as some other stars, would be possible destinations from Sol.<BR>
<BR>
As long as the average number of destinations from each star is small, this<BR>
type of map is easy to draw.<BR>
<BR>
Also, if you permit riftrunner tactics (multiple jumps in a row through<BR>
empty space) and want to include those routes in the map, you're headed for<BR>
trouble.<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:48:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
This is not directly related to Heaven & Earth, but :<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone played with Microsoft Encarta World Atlas 99 ?<BR>
<BR>
For those that have, imagine something like the fly-over option of that<BR>
merged with something like Heaven & Earth as Traveller play-aid.<BR>
<BR>
For those that haven't, get a look at it however you can, it's an amazing<BR>
rolpelaying aid for Earh-based games, especially modern ones.<BR>
<BR>
The fly-over option mentioned above  basicalyalows you to fly over the<BR>
Earth's surface at a reasonable speed, controlling the direction of your<BR>
flight, with major cities and features labelled.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:33:12 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a copy<BR>
of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the OSR-2<BR>
version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version as well.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:57 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Ok,  unfortunately I cannot run IE on my system because it crashes my<BR>
computer<BR>
> fairly quickly and regularly.  So that makes the whole program pointless.<BR>
I<BR>
> find it ironic that IE will not run on Win95 v1.  It sucks.<BR>
><BR>
> Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > No, not really: Just lower your expectations. Generate only sub sectors<BR>
> > at a time, instead of sectors, and I'm sure it will be fine. I have 3<BR>
P100's<BR>
> > that I software test on (for work, but sometimes for play) and subsector<BR>
> > generation worked ok on them.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:30:24 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies  (long))<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> >Yup.  There are "international waters" and there are "international<BR>
> >waters".  The Missippi River is an international water all the way<BR>
> >up into Minnesota.  Offshore, outside the territorial limit (which used<BR>
> >to be 3 and is now 12 miles), there is the Exclusive Economic Zone<BR>
> >(it used to be a bit more complicated with coastal states having the<BR>
> >exploitation rights out as far as the water was 200meters deep or less,<BR>
> >or where it was feasible to exploit them, etc.).<BR>
><BR>
> The New Utopia project (http://www.new-utopia.com plans on building a<BR>
> country west of the Cayman Islands - 19N, 84W has a seamount<BR>
> with water less than 1000m deep, they think they can put a platform<BR>
> there and make it livable.<BR>
><BR>
> They selected a location over 100 miles from the nearest natural dry<BR>
> land, on the theory that this will make their new country independent.<BR>
> Significant, since they intent their major source of income to come from<BR>
> gambling, off-shore banking, genetics research, and other activities<BR>
> they plan on regulating a bit differently than other countries do.<BR>
><BR>
> Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
> subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
> country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
<BR>
Um, no. They try to build a platform on those 'seamounts' and<BR>
they fall into the jurisdiction of the Cayman Islands.  The loonies<BR>
behind 'New Utopia' are out of luck.<BR>
<BR>
If they did it more than 200 miles from the nearest country,<BR>
it might be different.<BR>
<BR>
Did you look at the news section on these wackos?<BR>
The financial backing comes from "Prince Lazarus Long",<BR>
a millionaire from Tulsa, Ok.  Looks like someone has<BR>
been reading too much Heinlein.  Howard Turney<BR>
actually had his named changed to that.  [hmm.  I was<BR>
raised in Tulsa and that Turney name is real familiar -<BR>
I think I might have gone to school with some Turneys]<BR>
Apparently, Turney, err, Prince Long, made all his<BR>
money in the 'anti-aging' business, including the human<BR>
growth hormone stuff that seems to single-handedly<BR>
support late night radio in the US, given the saturation<BR>
of the advertisements.<BR>
<BR>
This is beginning to shape up into a pretty good Traveller<BR>
adventure setting.<BR>
<BR>
New Utopia is to be a constitutional monarchy, with<BR>
heriditary succession.  To become a citizen, you have<BR>
to have no criminal record and fork over $1,500,<BR>
which will allegedly be repaid at 9.5% interest.  530<BR>
ignorant sods have already been hoodwinked.<BR>
<BR>
From the Cayman paper:<BR>
"The Prince's philosophy of government is one of<BR>
unrestrained capitalism and _very_ small government.<BR>
[So maybe the monachy is for sale?] . . . There would<BR>
be no taxes in New Utopia, he said.  Government<BR>
income would derive from banking fees and a 15%<BR>
duty on everything imported."<BR>
<BR>
The US SEC had frozen all of New Utopia's funds,<BR>
because they started a bond sale/loan scheme, which<BR>
US citizens can't participate in (because they can't<BR>
meet the requirements to sell bonds in the US) -<BR>
a big clue that its a scam. (These bond schemes<BR>
are the classic methods of fraud and often used to<BR>
finance hate groups.)<BR>
<BR>
Ah, yes.  Nothing like a good wacko and his cult<BR>
of followerd on a slow day.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 02:51:10 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
>Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> puts out in the ether:<BR>
>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
> >  Shadowrun: Cyberpunk 2020, but _with_ munchkins...:-)<BR>
>What, there aren't munchkins in CP2020?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the Magic system in Shadowrun draws 'em like flies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:58:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>>     Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A whole<BR>
planet<BR>
>> of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows you how tough Marines are.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, but the Aliens were certainly not defeatable by hand and knife  :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, Jens, but what do you think the rifle was invented for?  The<BR>
shotgun?  The Nuclear Weapon?  So you do not have to get into hand-to-hand<BR>
combat range, until you are ready.<BR>
    As for who is better, well, how about this...  Me with my M16A2/M203 vs<BR>
any Knife Fighter you want to name, 100 meters between us, & we can see who<BR>
will win.<BR>
    My point is that wars & battles are no longer totaly fought<BR>
hand-to-hand.  Technology has given us more tools than the knife to fight<BR>
our battles.  And, that was what was good about Aliens, at least the first<BR>
half, before the Aliens showed up.  The way they showed the Marines getting<BR>
ready for the drop & their tactics on the ground.  That part should be a<BR>
standard Traveller Movie, along with Darkstar.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:54:10 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Dos software<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.<BR>
<BR>
Someone mentioned having a dos based sound player.<BR>
<BR>
Any Dos based game utilies would also be nice.<BR>
<BR>
In the ambient sounds department, I think, I have enough pieces<BR>
for the sensor shack. I am working on a general ship sounds<BR>
bit also. That is matter of miking the right ventilation duct.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:24:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net> wrote: <BR>
<BR>
>Ok,  unfortunately I cannot run IE on my system because it crashes my computer<BR>
>fairly quickly and regularly.  So that makes the whole program pointless.  I<BR>
>find it ironic that IE will not run on Win95 v1.  It sucks.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to hear that. I can definitely recommend World Builder Deluxe, which *should*<BR>
run without the IE requirement IIRC. (There is a copy of the final version of WBD on<BR>
the H&E website: off www.downport.com)<BR>
<BR>
WBD was the little brother of H&E, and does quite a lot of things that H&E does, but<BR>
doesn't look anywhere near as nice.  (It is just a generation program, and you look at<BR>
the output via windows...)<BR>
<BR>
It is definitely worth the *freeware* price, if you ask me....<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:03:33 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> Yes, but the Magic system in Shadowrun draws 'em like flies.<BR>
<BR>
Have we played the same edition of Shadowrun? When we played, the magicians had<BR>
a tendency of seriously hurting themselves with their magic. Sure, they could<BR>
usually cast one large spell, but trying to cast many spells quickly was a<BR>
highway to disaster...<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:08:39 +0200<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     Yes, Jens, but what do you think the rifle was invented for?  The<BR>
> shotgun?  The Nuclear Weapon?  So you do not have to get into hand-to-hand<BR>
> combat range, until you are ready.<BR>
<BR>
I think you are missing my point.<BR>
<BR>
I stated that the aliens in "Pitch black" were not as physically godlike as the<BR>
ones in "Alien." As an example, I mentioned that one of the aliens in PB is<BR>
defeated by a single human wielding no weapon but a knife. In Aliens, the<BR>
beasts have bullets bouncing off their heads.<BR>
<BR>
I was not trying to argue that future soldiers should wield knives as their<BR>
weapons of choice. Come to think of it, I don't think a rifle, a bulletproof<BR>
west (without arm covering), and some rifle grenades (but no artillery or air<BR>
support) is a good way to do it either (Starship Troopers: The Movie).<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that in Bug Hunt movies, the nasties have a tendency of getting<BR>
into hand-to-hand combat range before you are ready   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>     As for who is better, well, how about this...  Me with my M16A2/M203 vs<BR>
> any Knife Fighter you want to name, 100 meters between us, & we can see who<BR>
> will win.<BR>
<BR>
You with your ACR in the basement of a bunker, with a knife fighter laying in<BR>
ambush. Who will win?<BR>
<BR>
It all depends on the situation...<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
| Name: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       | By receiving this message, you do NOT |<BR>
| Mail: jenry023@student.liu.se        | receive the right to use my address   |<BR>
| Home: http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se | for advertisement purposes. Doing so  |<BR>
| ICQ#: 3844745                        | will be punished by public flogging.  |<BR>
|                                      |                                       |<BR>
+--------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:31:08 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal<BR>
Technocracies (long))<BR>
><BR>
> On 14 May 00, at 21:41, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > If they build a platform in someone's resource management area, they<BR>
> > may have to abide by certain rules.  I'd be really nervous living<BR>
> > on a platform in the open ocean as an completely independent entity.<BR>
> > Any country or anyone with a ship and some guns could come by and<BR>
> > take over.<BR>
><BR>
> That already applies to a lot of small pacific island nations, so<BR>
> what's the difference?<BR>
<BR>
Basically, small Pacific Island nations have two relatively large regional<BR>
powers (Australia and New Zealand) who are set to intervene to toss out the<BR>
Men Who Would Be King.<BR>
<BR>
In the understatement of the week, New Zealand doesn't have a lot of<BR>
force-projection capability, but I wouldn't like to be on, say, Nuie with<BR>
twenty mates with Kalashnikovs, and knowing that somewhere out there were 20<BR>
NZ Special Air Services types. They might be using a cargo ship and then<BR>
rubber dingys for the mission, but it still isnt something I'd like to deal<BR>
with.<BR>
<BR>
A 'country' specifically set up to evade commonly understood international<BR>
banking, drug research or similar laws is just asking to be made a test case<BR>
of in the Hague.<BR>
<BR>
To haul this back ObTrav, I believe that the Imperial Marines are the tool<BR>
of choice to replace cases where 'excessive off-planetary influence' led to<BR>
the installation of what is seen as a rogue government. Other tools would<BR>
include the IISS' Internal Mapping Branch, and 'non-Imperial volunteers' (eg<BR>
some rogues and rapscallions known to the Subsector Duke's younger brother's<BR>
kid, who are prepared to do the Right Thing, in exchange for costs plus 20<BR>
percent out of the Duke's Younger Brothers' "Cards Fund" - MoJ's auditors<BR>
can look all they like ... younger brother lost the hundred and twenty<BR>
thousand at cards).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:48:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 0:06, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/14/00 at 09:57 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
> >>Subject: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
> >...<BR>
> >>Right, I hadn't taken that scale efficiency into account.  However,<BR>
> >>scale<BR>
> >efficiency<BR>
> >>is for "large fusion power plants." If  "large" is defined I missed it.<BR>
> >Does the <BR>
> >>power plant for a 400dt Subbie qualify as large? <BR>
> <BR>
> >  Striker design charts; 14m^3 or larger. Convenient coincidence, yes? :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, convenient describes it. <g><BR>
> <BR>
> I think I'll stick with FFS2's numbers. OTOH, I'd like PP's to more<BR>
> closely match B2's than HG's or later.  I know some of you folks swear by<BR>
> HG, but to me it's B2 for simple and one/both of the FFS's for complex. <BR>
<BR>
I'd tend to agree with you, but for one thing - B2's lack of big ships, <BR>
armour and guns other than lasers (mind you in turret sizes I suppose <BR>
the latter applies to FFS too).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:58:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 19:31, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> > Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal<BR>
> Technocracies (long))<BR>
> ><BR>
> > On 14 May 00, at 21:41, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > If they build a platform in someone's resource management area, they<BR>
> > > may have to abide by certain rules.  I'd be really nervous living on a<BR>
> > > platform in the open ocean as an completely independent entity. Any<BR>
> > > country or anyone with a ship and some guns could come by and take<BR>
> > > over.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > That already applies to a lot of small pacific island nations, so<BR>
> > what's the difference?<BR>
> <BR>
> Basically, small Pacific Island nations have two relatively large regional<BR>
> powers (Australia and New Zealand) who are set to intervene to toss out<BR>
> the Men Who Would Be King.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In the understatement of the week, New Zealand doesn't have a lot of<BR>
> force-projection capability, but I wouldn't like to be on, say, Nuie with<BR>
> twenty mates with Kalashnikovs, and knowing that somewhere out there were<BR>
> 20 NZ Special Air Services types. They might be using a cargo ship and<BR>
> then rubber dingys for the mission, but it still isnt something I'd like<BR>
> to deal with.<BR>
<BR>
That's almost certainly what they'd be using. It's so much cheaper than <BR>
actually getting a frigate out of port and over there.<BR>
 <BR>
> A 'country' specifically set up to evade commonly understood international<BR>
> banking, drug research or similar laws is just asking to be made a test<BR>
> case of in the Hague.<BR>
<BR>
I sort of assumed that anybody trying to be indepentdant as close to <BR>
the US as that lot would have powerful friends.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:58:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 2:33, J-Man wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a<BR>
> copy of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the<BR>
> OSR-2 version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version<BR>
> as well.<BR>
<BR>
I never had any huge problems with it (no more than with OSR-2, <BR>
anyway), and still find it useful for installing on old PCs with <BR>
limited HD space (assuming they have to have '95 on them at all).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:13:08 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Katharine Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
> Basically, small Pacific Island nations have two relatively large regional<BR>
> powers (Australia and New Zealand) who are set to intervene to<BR>
> toss out the Men Who Would Be King.<BR>
><BR>
> In the understatement of the week, New Zealand doesn't have a lot of<BR>
> force-projection capability, but I wouldn't like to be on, say, Nuie with<BR>
> twenty mates with Kalashnikovs, and knowing that somewhere out<BR>
> there were 20<BR>
> NZ Special Air Services types. They might be using a cargo ship and then<BR>
> rubber dingys for the mission, but it still isnt something I'd<BR>
> like to deal<BR>
> with.<BR>
<BR>
That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the last time some guy<BR>
and his mates took over a Pacific Island, neither the NZ or Australian<BR>
governments had the balls to do anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:06:19 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
I had no end of problems with the Upgrade version.  Try running it with an<BR>
EZDrive overlay..FUN!  :)  I'm frankly surprised you had no problems, the<BR>
Upgrade version was so bad I don't even consider it a valid operating<BR>
system.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:58 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 15 May 00, at 2:33, J-Man wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a<BR>
> > copy of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the<BR>
> > OSR-2 version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version<BR>
> > as well.<BR>
><BR>
> I never had any huge problems with it (no more than with OSR-2,<BR>
> anyway), and still find it useful for installing on old PCs with<BR>
> limited HD space (assuming they have to have '95 on them at all).<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:47:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release on your<BR>
system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check *anything* you<BR>
have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this is - and I quote -<BR>
"streets ahead of other browsers and especially the older versions of<BR>
Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports Internet standards so<BR>
well."<BR>
<BR>
In other words, if it needs a browser, it *should* work on Netscape<BR>
6 - if it doesn't, then it is not written to standards and can't be<BR>
relied on to keep working since other manufacturers can simply change<BR>
their own software to break it. And to top it all, its smaller than<BR>
IE4, IE5, Netscape 4.x and just about everything else except Opera<BR>
3.2x.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of shimmer<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 00:58<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Ok,  unfortunately I cannot run IE on my system because it<BR>
> crashes my computer<BR>
> fairly quickly and regularly.  So that makes the whole<BR>
> program pointless.  I<BR>
> find it ironic that IE will not run on Win95 v1.  It sucks.<BR>
><BR>
> Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > No, not really: Just lower your expectations. Generate<BR>
> only sub sectors<BR>
> > at a time, instead of sectors, and I'm sure it will be<BR>
> fine. I have 3 P100's<BR>
> > that I software test on (for work, but sometimes for<BR>
> play) and subsector<BR>
> > generation worked ok on them.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2431<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2432</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2432<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies  (long))<BR>
RE: Looking for High Guard... in Java...<BR>
Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:51:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
How's this for a quote for you both about the BT ADSL rollout. From<BR>
Sir Peter Bonfield (BT chief executive) : "We invented DSL and a<BR>
quarter of the UK's phone lines are enabled for it - do you want us to<BR>
actually let people use it?" Says it all doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: 14 May 2000 23:47<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 17:08 -0400 14/5/00, Steve Daniels<BR>
> <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>wrote:<BR>
> > > *Tell Me There Will Be a MacOS Version*!?<BR>
> >The Cornered Rats _ALWAYS_ make cross-platform<BR>
> >games.  When they created WarBirds in 1994/5, it<BR>
> >was done simultaneously for PC and Mac, and it has<BR>
> >continued to be so.  Their Mac Heads are super-dedicated.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I don't speak for them, but I certainly expect a Mac,<BR>
> >and possibly a Linux, version (allowing you to interact<BR>
> >with PC players at the same time, of course).<BR>
><BR>
> Dom dances with joy.<BR>
><BR>
> Then he thinks he'll need to get ADSL.<BR>
><BR>
> Then he contemplates the nightmare that is if the software needs a<BR>
> G3+ Mac not just a PPC 603e 200.<BR>
><BR>
> Smiles still.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
> *AMOUR* - by Brian Patten<BR>
> She said I was a wolf in sheep's clothing.<BR>
> Not true.<BR>
> I was a lamb, in armour.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:57:17 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters (was Re: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies  (long))<BR>
<BR>
This sounds a bit like the Atlantis Project that was trying to create <BR>
Oceania in the same area.  Head over to http://www.oceania.org for more <BR>
information and some excellent graphics that can be recycled for that <BR>
waterworld...<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:41:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Looking for High Guard... in Java...<BR>
<BR>
Well, yes and no - I do program in Java, I *did* love the High Guard<BR>
USP, but I just don't have time to program all of that in. At least<BR>
not while I am trying to build XML standard data formats and handlers<BR>
that we can use for Traveller. Updating that, thanks to those who have<BR>
submitted lots of help so far and currently it looks like the Library<BR>
Data is the easiest place to start. <Fingers crossed> I am currently<BR>
building an XML application to let us put all Library Data in XML<BR>
format and share it openly. This one looks like the most useful and<BR>
<incedentally only...honest> the easiest to do.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rob<BR>
> Eaglestone<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 02:46<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Looking for High Guard... in Java...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I know there are Java programmers out there.  Do some of<BR>
> you like High Guard?  At least the Universal Ship Profile?<BR>
><BR>
> Well, the USP is one great way to encode ship information<BR>
> in a small space (another way is to just use a hashtable...).<BR>
> ANYHOW, I'm thinking High Guard is the place to begin for<BR>
> starship registries in Traveller On-Line.  If anyone's done<BR>
> this or would like to do it, please contact me.<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
> downport@home.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:31:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
<BR>
They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:24:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
>    Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A whole<BR>
planet<BR>
>of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows you how tough Marines are.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:42:25 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
At 12:51 PM 05/15/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>How's this for a quote for you both about the BT ADSL rollout. From<BR>
>Sir Peter Bonfield (BT chief executive) : "We invented DSL and a<BR>
>quarter of the UK's phone lines are enabled for it - do you want us to<BR>
>actually let people use it?" Says it all doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....I thought Owl, sorry, Al Gore invented it? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:59:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
<BR>
Just to throw in my .02 cr....<BR>
<BR>
Any Marine worth his/her salt can engage a man sized target at 500 yds<BR>
just using the iron sights on an M-16 and a good stable prone position.<BR>
<BR>
Marine snipers routinely train to engage  man sized targets at 1000<BR>
yards, even at night, with just the optics (Unertl Scope) that come<BR>
standard with the sniper rifle.<BR>
<BR>
Food for thought for the guy bringing the knife to the gunfight :-)<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:58:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>>     Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A whole<BR>
planet<BR>
>> of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows you how tough Marines<BR>
are.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, but the Aliens were certainly not defeatable by hand and knife<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, Jens, but what do you think the rifle was invented for?  The<BR>
shotgun?  The Nuclear Weapon?  So you do not have to get into<BR>
hand-to-hand<BR>
combat range, until you are ready.<BR>
    As for who is better, well, how about this...  Me with my M16A2/M203<BR>
vs<BR>
any Knife Fighter you want to name, 100 meters between us, & we can see<BR>
who<BR>
will win.<BR>
    My point is that wars & battles are no longer totaly fought<BR>
hand-to-hand.  Technology has given us more tools than the knife to<BR>
fight<BR>
our battles.  And, that was what was good about Aliens, at least the<BR>
first<BR>
half, before the Aliens showed up.  The way they showed the Marines<BR>
getting<BR>
ready for the drop & their tactics on the ground.  That part should be a<BR>
<BR>
standard Traveller Movie, along with Darkstar.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:05:32 -0400<BR>
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 09:31 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
>of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
><BR>
>They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
>like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
<BR>
As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They <BR>
collected the ammo so no one would set off the reactor then they entered an <BR>
alien controlled area with no escape/retreat option and no way to fight it <BR>
out.  Didn't these guys know anything about sending in a 2 man recon before <BR>
committing the whole unit.  A couple guys escaping doesn't show me they <BR>
were that smart just damn lucky.  They did make a good stand in the medical <BR>
unit but by then they were so out numbered they really didn't stand a <BR>
chance.  Now if they had made the stand minus the 2 recon guys who would <BR>
get zapped but get the warning out then they could maybe had eventually <BR>
been able to sweep the aliens out since the aliens were concentrated in one <BR>
place.  Which brings me to the air cover....were was it.  As I remember <BR>
while the unit was getting zapped the damn drop ship was still no the <BR>
ground.  I would think that those guys would have been listening to the <BR>
battle chatter and know that the unit was in trouble and get <BR>
airborne.  Instead they remained on the ground until the retreating marines <BR>
called for an air evac.  By then an alien had gotten on board and the crew <BR>
got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, battle hardened <BR>
colonial Marine unit with experience on "Bug hunts" as they called them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@cfl.rr.com<BR>
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo<BR>
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein<BR>
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:18:18 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Dave Biggs wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 09:31 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
> >of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
> >like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
> <BR>
> As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very inexperienced. Wasn't it<BR>
his first combat drop? Good thing he died, because there probably would<BR>
have been a court martial when he got back.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:56:33 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 05:48 PM 5/15/00 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
>Has anyone played with Microsoft Encarta World Atlas 99 ?<BR>
>For those that haven't, get a look at it however you can, it's an amazing<BR>
>rolpelaying aid for Earh-based games, especially modern ones.<BR>
><BR>
>The fly-over option mentioned above  basicalyalows you to fly over the<BR>
>Earth's surface at a reasonable speed, controlling the direction of your<BR>
>flight, with major cities and features labelled.<BR>
<BR>
DeLorme's Eartha Global Explorer, the DVD version lets you do this, as <BR>
well.  And it ties into my GPS. Now if I only had a laptop...  (Currently <BR>
the GPS is used with my palmpilot)<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:58:40 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
on 5/15/00 7:18 AM, Erwin Fritz at efritz@glja.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Dave Biggs wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At 09:31 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>> I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
>>> of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
>>> like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very inexperienced. Wasn't it<BR>
> his first combat drop? Good thing he died, because there probably would<BR>
> have been a court martial when he got back.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I believe it was his second ('How many combat drops', 'Two, including this<BR>
one').<BR>
<BR>
Basic law of combat.  Never commit your entire force to an action.  Always<BR>
maintain a reserve.  And why not send the synthetic in first?  They can<BR>
build an intelligent, life like android, but don't have a simple recon<BR>
drone? Doesn't appear that military technology has advanced much in the next<BR>
few hundred years.<BR>
<BR>
Still, some times everything just goes to hell.  The best you can do is to<BR>
go down swinging, which they all did, even the green eltee<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:02:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Erwin Fritz wrote:<BR>
> > As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement <BR>
> > too.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very<BR>
> inexperienced. Wasn't it his first combat drop? Good thing he<BR>
> died, because there probably would have been a court martial<BR>
> when he got back.<BR>
<BR>
Actually it was his 2nd *non*-simulated combat drop ...  however,<BR>
if you're handing out court martials I would suggest  giving  one<BR>
to whomever it was assigned a mission to such a green officer  as<BR>
leader.  I've always felt that Lt Gorman was set-up by Burke  ...<BR>
possibly Burke pulled some strings thinking Gorman would be  easy<BR>
to manipulate (planning  ahead  to  recovering  an  alien).  This<BR>
implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
on the mission itself.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:40:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 09:31 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
The mission was a success. Read the Ranger Creed to see what a real world<BR>
unit feels about the same sort of situation.<BR>
<BR>
http://www-benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/CREED.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:48:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 10:05 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They <BR>
>collected the ammo so no one would set off the reactor then they entered an <BR>
>alien controlled area with no escape/retreat option and no way to fight it <BR>
>out.<BR>
<BR>
All they knew was that the colonists were down there.  Nobody believed<BR>
Ripley's story about the Aliens, and she had never seen a full colony.<BR>
<BR>
>  Didn't these guys know anything about sending in a 2 man recon before <BR>
>committing the whole unit.  A couple guys escaping doesn't show me they <BR>
>were that smart just damn lucky.<BR>
<BR>
The entire unit was a recon.  With the link to the command vehicle, and the<BR>
poor lines of sight, Apone decided to keep his troops close together.<BR>
That, and we don't know that one or two of the fishbait Marines weren't<BR>
walking a point.<BR>
<BR>
>  They did make a good stand in the medical <BR>
>unit but by then they were so out numbered they really didn't stand a <BR>
>chance.  Now if they had made the stand minus the 2 recon guys who would <BR>
>get zapped but get the warning out then they could maybe had eventually <BR>
>been able to sweep the aliens out since the aliens were concentrated in one <BR>
>place.<BR>
<BR>
:) Once awakened, the Aliens were all over that reactor. That and most of<BR>
the ammo had already been collected, remember?  This was all a plot point,<BR>
you had to scare the marines, get rid of most of their ammo, and kill the<BR>
one competent leader (Apone).<BR>
<BR>
>  Which brings me to the air cover....were was it.  As I remember <BR>
>while the unit was getting zapped the damn drop ship was still no the <BR>
>ground.  I would think that those guys would have been listening to the <BR>
>battle chatter and know that the unit was in trouble and get <BR>
>airborne.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be willing to bet that radio signals would get blocked by a few<BR>
thousand tons of steel and an operating giant fusion reactor.<BR>
<BR>
>  Instead they remained on the ground until the retreating marines <BR>
>called for an air evac.  By then an alien had gotten on board and the crew <BR>
>got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, battle hardened <BR>
>colonial Marine unit with experience on "Bug hunts" as they called them.<BR>
<BR>
In the original script, it is made clear that the dropship had landed to<BR>
examine some damage.  Why the scene was cut, I don't know, but it makes it<BR>
clear that the drop ship was on the ground for a reason.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
Yfirmaur, Konunglegur Gramm Floti<BR>
Srstakur Vitsmunir jnusta<BR>
Sameina Her: Rm, Sver Verld Sambandsmyndun<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:50:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
<BR>
At 09:59 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Marine snipers routinely train to engage  man sized targets at 1000<BR>
>yards, even at night, with just the optics (Unertl Scope) that come<BR>
>standard with the sniper rifle.<BR>
<BR>
At 300 yards, I was expected to get head hits everytime on stationary<BR>
targets.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:59:30 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 02:33 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a copy<BR>
>of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the OSR-2<BR>
>version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version as well.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I've always heard from 99% of the people who've used it.  My <BR>
copy however, before I went to Win98, was the only stable version of 95 <BR>
I've ever encountered.  The copy that came with my (then brand new) PC <BR>
worked every time, on every machine I went to, on every hardware and <BR>
software upgrade.  Even Plug-n-Pray worked correctly.<BR>
<BR>
My theory is that Micro$oft makes a working version, which they then <BR>
carefully sprinkle bugs into.  Somehow a "non-bugged"  cop slipped out, and <BR>
I got it....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:11:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
<BR>
on 5/15/00 6:59 AM, Chris Dixon at cdixon@airfoiltech.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Just to throw in my .02 cr....<BR>
> <BR>
> Any Marine worth his/her salt can engage a man sized target at 500 yds<BR>
> just using the iron sights on an M-16 and a good stable prone position.<BR>
<BR>
At the range on a good day. Having participated in army test back in the 80s<BR>
to determine marksmanship under stress, I can tell you that real world<BR>
(simulated) is very different. I and a large number of other recruits got to<BR>
shoot at the then new moving target range, while instructors shouted, threw<BR>
artillery simulators and in general, tried to simulate the chaos of battle.<BR>
no one, not even us expert marksman, hit much of anything.<BR>
> <BR>
> Marine snipers routinely train to engage  man sized targets at 1000<BR>
> yards, even at night, with just the optics (Unertl Scope) that come<BR>
> standard with the sniper rifle.<BR>
<BR>
A sniper is not an infantryman.  He has special training and equipment, and<BR>
take his shot after preparation, from concealment/cover, and is rarely under<BR>
fire before firing.  As far as 1000 meter shots at night, I'd like to see<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I believe the issue optics these days is the Leupold 10x with Mil-dot<BR>
recticle.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:12:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger wrote:<BR>
>This sounds a bit like the Atlantis Project that was trying to create <BR>
>Oceania in the same area.  Head over to http://www.oceania.org for more <BR>
>information and some excellent graphics that can be recycled for that <BR>
>waterworld... <BR>
<BR>
Yup, been there as well.  <BR>
<BR>
Oh my.  I hope no one thought I was taking these New Utopians<BR>
seriously.  I was mining them for Traveller Waterworld campaign stuff!<BR>
<G><BR>
<BR>
I suppose the ObTrav question would be: assuming no strong need to<BR>
move the habitat, would you be better off putting the city on pylons,<BR>
making it float on water, or making it gravitic?  I think we've already<BR>
covered the problems with multi-level underwater habitats, so assume<BR>
most living areas are intended to be above the surface.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure local conditions (water depth, weather, bottom composition)<BR>
will affect the decision, I'm wondering what conditions would encourage<BR>
each of the above three solutions, or additional ones.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
..who still fondly remembers the Sealab 2020 cartoon from the 1970's...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:14:44 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 12:47 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release on your<BR>
>system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check *anything* you<BR>
>have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this is - and I quote -<BR>
>"streets ahead of other browsers and especially the older versions of<BR>
>Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports Internet standards so<BR>
>well."<BR>
><BR>
>In other words, if it needs a browser, it *should* work on Netscape<BR>
>6 - if it doesn't, then it is not written to standards and can't be<BR>
<BR>
You are talking about anything that works as a _Web browser_.  Ever since <BR>
4.0, IE has significantly passed the point of being only a Web <BR>
browser.  It's now more like a complete framework for any app you want to <BR>
write.  For the Unix types out here, think "Make".  It started out as a <BR>
tool to make compiling/building/installing easier, but it's flexible enough <BR>
that these days some people use it to do all sort of other tasks.<BR>
<BR>
So while I always use Netscape for my browser (well, except when I hit some <BR>
obnoxious site (like micro$soft.com) that only works well with IE), I see <BR>
no problem with applications using the IE featureset that isn't supported <BR>
by other browsers (like ActiveX).<BR>
<BR>
While I agree that all web pages should be written to be browser <BR>
independent, saying that all apps that use a browser should be browser <BR>
independent doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:19:03 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 10:05 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>it.  As I remember while the unit was getting zapped the damn drop ship <BR>
>was still no the ground.  I would think that those guys would have been <BR>
>listening to the battle chatter and know that the unit was in trouble and <BR>
>get airborne.  Instead they remained on the ground until the retreating <BR>
>marines called for an air evac.  By then an alien had gotten on board and <BR>
>the crew got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, battle <BR>
>hardened colonial Marine unit with experience on "Bug hunts" as they <BR>
>called them.<BR>
<BR>
My problem has always been with the idea of: arrive in orbit, with two <BR>
dropships, put _everyone_ aboard on one dropship, and land them.  What's <BR>
the other dropship for?  Why doesn't anyone stay on the jumpship/mothership <BR>
(or whatever it was called)?????<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:23:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> My theory is that Micro$oft makes a working version, which they<BR>
> then carefully sprinkle bugs into.  Somehow a "non-bugged"  cop <BR>
> slipped out, and I got it....<BR>
<BR>
Have you seen "Tomorrow Never Dies"?<BR>
<BR>
    Megacorp Boss (Villain): "Status?"<BR>
<BR>
    Technician (Flunky): "The new software shipped this morning."<BR>
<BR>
    Megacorp Boss (Villain): "Any bugs in it?"<BR>
<BR>
    Technician (Flunky): "Yes sir.  They'll be upgrading for years."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:34:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
> As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release on your<BR>
> system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check *anything* you<BR>
> have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this is - and I quote -<BR>
> "streets ahead of other browsers and especially the older versions of<BR>
> Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports Internet standards so<BR>
> well."<BR>
<BR>
I have used IE3/4/5 on a Win95/98 machine, IE4 and Netscape 3  on<BR>
a WinNT machine, and now Netscape 5 on a Linux  machine.  Why  do<BR>
people like Netscape?  In my experience (and just  using  it  for<BR>
basic browsing) its a pile of pants!  Since  I  am  migrating  to<BR>
Linux I look forward to Netscape 6 and *hope* its atleast as good<BR>
as IE5.  (I'd prefer a  Linux  version  of  IE5  but  that  seems<BR>
unlikely.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:40:32 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 04:23 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
> > My theory is that Micro$oft makes a working version, which they<BR>
> > then carefully sprinkle bugs into.  Somehow a "non-bugged"  cop<BR>
> > slipped out, and I got it....<BR>
><BR>
>Have you seen "Tomorrow Never Dies"?<BR>
><BR>
>     Megacorp Boss (Villain): "Status?"<BR>
><BR>
>     Technician (Flunky): "The new software shipped this morning."<BR>
><BR>
>     Megacorp Boss (Villain): "Any bugs in it?"<BR>
><BR>
>     Technician (Flunky): "Yes sir.  They'll be upgrading for years."<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  Somehow I got a pre-bug version...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2432<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2433<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Real World TL21(?) Robot<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
RE: Request for review<BR>
Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Landgrab: Yori<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re[2]: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
[OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:44:54 -0400<BR>
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 08:18 AM 5/15/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Dave Biggs wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 09:31 AM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> > >I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
> > >of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
> > >like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very inexperienced. Wasn't it<BR>
>his first combat drop? Good thing he died, because there probably would<BR>
>have been a court martial when he got back.<BR>
<BR>
It was his second "real" drop. But he was giving the orders, but then that <BR>
is why you have Sergeants. Sure there is only so much a Sgt can do or <BR>
say.  But most learn how to tweek a Lt.  My father was a career Sgt. and I <BR>
grew up around green Lt.'s.  For the most part they were ok once the Sgt <BR>
showed them a "better way", sort of stand a side and let the Sgt run things <BR>
and then just take credit for it...still even a green Lt. knows a little <BR>
something about sending his guys into a box with no way out...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@cfl.rr.com<BR>
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo<BR>
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein<BR>
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:09:12 EDT<BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
And can someone direct me to where the Twisted Pixel pages have the dll's <BR>
that the setup tells you about (mfc42.dll, msvcrt.dll, ctl3d32.dll)?  They <BR>
say they are there, but I must have overlooked them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:39:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Real World TL21(?) Robot<BR>
<BR>
Folks, you are *not* going to believe this one.<BR>
<BR>
- --- quote ---<BR>
<BR>
EMBARGOED FOR RELEASE: 10 MAY 2000 AT 14:00 ET US<BR>
<BR>
     A droid that can change shape<BR>
<BR>
Imagine an automaton that can design itself, assemble itself<BR>
and even kill itself. No, it's not the liquid metal robot<BR>
from Terminator 2 -- but this droid can certainly build<BR>
itself to perform a particular task, melt itself down and<BR>
recycle itself, say researchers in Massachusetts. <BR>
<BR>
The scientists have developed what they call a polymorphic<BR>
robot -- a machine that can change its shape to suit the job<BR>
in hand. Shape-shifting robots could be used as planetary<BR>
explorers, or for search-and-rescue missions, changing their<BR>
shape to meet each new challenge and adapting to strange and<BR>
unpredictable environments...<BR>
<BR>
- --- end quote ---<BR>
<BR>
Check out the story at:<BR>
http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/ns-adt051000.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: This used to be the realm of Ancients tech in<BR>
Traveller. Looks like the TL was missed by quite a bit.<BR>
<BR>
David Smart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:47:23 -0400<BR>
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 04:02 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>leader.  I've always felt that Lt Gorman was set-up by Burke  ...<BR>
>possibly Burke pulled some strings thinking Gorman would be  easy<BR>
>to manipulate (planning  ahead  to  recovering  an  alien).  This<BR>
>implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
>on the mission itself.<BR>
<BR>
If you read the book you get a sort of queezy feeling that the "Company" <BR>
has a VERY large amount of power and can influence many things.  The <BR>
Company wanted an alien for bio-weapon research.  If you go back to the <BR>
first movie you can see that in the way the crew of the Nestoromo were <BR>
expendable as pointed out by the robot.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@cfl.rr.com<BR>
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo<BR>
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein<BR>
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:53:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Jeenicke writes:<BR>
> Hi there!<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm considering to make Traveller's space really three-dimensional for my<BR>
> next campaign.<BR>
> Each subsector would be given a "height" of 8 parsecs; I'm not sure what<BR>
> the average number of systems in a subsector would be now (G:T doesn't<BR>
> provide much tips for 3-D mapping, unfortunately), but it must be higher<BR>
> than in 2-D space.<BR>
Actually, probably not, traveller star densities are 5-10x too high (if one<BR>
assumes that a hex is a cubic parsec).<BR>
<BR>
Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real world.<BR>
There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to see big empty<BR>
spaces.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:00:48 -0400<BR>
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 07:48 AM 5/15/00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>All they knew was that the colonists were down there.  Nobody believed<BR>
>Ripley's story about the Aliens, and she had never seen a full colony.<BR>
<BR>
They did believe she saw something but they thought it was just some "BUG" <BR>
the dumb colonists stumbled onto.  The attitude seemed to change a bit when <BR>
the entered the living quarters and found evidence of a major fight that <BR>
included Hicks noting a large hole made by acid and suggested that the <BR>
colonists had "bagged" on of Ripples aliens.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >  Which brings me to the air cover....were was it.  As I remember<BR>
> >while the unit was getting zapped the damn drop ship was still no the<BR>
> >ground.  I would think that those guys would have been listening to the<BR>
> >battle chatter and know that the unit was in trouble and get<BR>
> >airborne.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd be willing to bet that radio signals would get blocked by a few<BR>
>thousand tons of steel and an operating giant fusion reactor.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't wash.  The APC the Lt. and Rip ple and Co. were in was able to <BR>
receive the signal.  The drop ship should have been able to pickup signals <BR>
from the APC.  Even if you don't know exactly what is happening you sure <BR>
know when everything hits the FUBAR.  Its time to get airborne and get <BR>
tactical.  And historically air crews have had a lot of latitude in <BR>
deploying their aircraft as long as the they remain with in their objective <BR>
parameters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >  Instead they remained on the ground until the retreating marines<BR>
> >called for an air evac.  By then an alien had gotten on board and the crew<BR>
> >got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, battle hardened<BR>
> >colonial Marine unit with experience on "Bug hunts" as they called them.<BR>
><BR>
>In the original script, it is made clear that the dropship had landed to<BR>
>examine some damage.  Why the scene was cut, I don't know, but it makes it<BR>
>clear that the drop ship was on the ground for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
In the book the area had been declared secure.  But once the unit started <BR>
to move they should have had air support.  But as you pointed out they did <BR>
have to kill off a lot of people and equipment fast so they took lots of <BR>
liberty with the plot.  Like the drop ship hitting the APC when it crashed <BR>
with a whole planet to hit.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@cfl.rr.com<BR>
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo<BR>
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein<BR>
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:57:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
At 1:16 -0400 15/5/00, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>You should *know* by now that I like the T4.1 task levels (pretty<BR>
>much)...except for the .5d <g>...and IHTIT "pretty much requires"<BR>
>it."  I even like the 2/3/4/5 die task resolution method...it's just<BR>
>that darn half die I don't like!<BR>
<BR>
Eris, I did notice that Andrew's early post was addressed to you ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The heretic objects to D3's? They're just a different take on a D6.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>Tell you what, if you like half dice then I have an alternative for<BR>
>you to consider.  What about *everytime* you get a skill level roll<BR>
>a d3?  Level 1 would produce a Skill of 1, 2, or 3, with an expected<BR>
>value of 2.  Level 2 would produce a Skill of 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, with<BR>
>the EV being 4.  Level 3 would produce a Skill of 3 to 9, EV of 6,<BR>
>and so on.  Now you don't need to 2.5d for Difficult and can go<BR>
>straight 2/3/4/5/6/7 d6.  ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I'm being thick and not following his?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:54:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
At 1:16 -0400 15/5/00, "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com> wrote:<BR>
>If you'll send me copies, I'll be happy to. :)<BR>
<BR>
Tell you what, we'll swap you some money for a copy - say $8 +PP if <BR>
you rell us via Warehouse23?<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
>I might have 101 Patrons on order. If it arrives while I'm thinking about it<BR>
>I'll post one.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:22:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
<BR>
Hi traveller-central Tod!<BR>
<BR>
In fairness it was under a full moon in the California Desert, but it<BR>
was definitely night and we were at a 1000 yd KD range in twenty-nine<BR>
palms.<BR>
<BR>
The targets were "Dog" targets with the shoulder and arm portions cut<BR>
off leaving just a head and torso.<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, I wouldn't believe it either if someone made the<BR>
same claim except I watched it happen.<BR>
<BR>
I'm definitely not the greatest marksman in the world (still expert but<BR>
not High expert/olympic shooter), but employed properly that rifle was<BR>
amazing.  I did have a spotter who gave me accurate windage information<BR>
and we also had sniper coaches with us.<BR>
<BR>
The scope was definitely a Unertl scope coated with HELR (High<BR>
Efficiency Low Reflective).  It's unpowered but gathers in 80-90% of<BR>
ambient light IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
As far as optics go, I seem to remember that the Seals used Leupold<BR>
scopes and their sniper rifles had bi-pods unlike the Marine sniper<BR>
rifles.  As<BR>
far as Army equipment goes, I have no idea.<BR>
<BR>
I'll be the first to admit that taking a shot at 1000 yds in combat is<BR>
another animal all together and doing it at night would be difficult at<BR>
best.<BR>
<BR>
I've been to the Army nightmare range (I think that's what they called<BR>
it) in Korea.  Our marines did a damn good job on that range but your<BR>
right in that  it definitely gets much harder to hit something when all<BR>
hells breaking loose around you.<BR>
<BR>
That said, the guy with the knife still can't lay down suppressing fire<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Though if he was stealthy enough he could conceivably sneak up on said<BR>
gun-owner and kill him right quick.  I still think I'd rather be the gun<BR>
<BR>
owner in that scenario though...<BR>
<BR>
By the way (and barely OB Trav) your Traveller-Central site is IMO one<BR>
of the best I've ever seen.  I'm looking forward to the completed<BR>
weapons section.<BR>
<BR>
Chris - slippin' OT, sorry folks.<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:11:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Pitch Black Review - Marine Marksmanship<BR>
<BR>
on 5/15/00 6:59 AM, Chris Dixon at cdixon@airfoiltech.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Just to throw in my .02 cr....<BR>
><BR>
> Any Marine worth his/her salt can engage a man sized target at 500 yds<BR>
<BR>
> just using the iron sights on an M-16 and a good stable prone<BR>
position.<BR>
<BR>
At the range on a good day. Having participated in army test back in the<BR>
<BR>
80s<BR>
to determine marksmanship under stress, I can tell you that real world<BR>
(simulated) is very different. I and a large number of other recruits<BR>
got to<BR>
shoot at the then new moving target range, while instructors shouted,<BR>
threw<BR>
artillery simulators and in general, tried to simulate the chaos of<BR>
battle.<BR>
no one, not even us expert marksman, hit much of anything.<BR>
><BR>
> Marine snipers routinely train to engage  man sized targets at 1000<BR>
> yards, even at night, with just the optics (Unertl Scope) that come<BR>
> standard with the sniper rifle.<BR>
<BR>
A sniper is not an infantryman.  He has special training and equipment,<BR>
and<BR>
take his shot after preparation, from concealment/cover, and is rarely<BR>
under<BR>
fire before firing.  As far as 1000 meter shots at night, I'd like to<BR>
see<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I believe the issue optics these days is the Leupold 10x with<BR>
Mil-dot<BR>
recticle.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:26:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Hi Doug,<BR>
<BR>
I checked out the Ranger (danger!) URL, but I'm not making the<BR>
connection on how that makes the Marine's in the Alien's movie a<BR>
success.  I haven't had my requisite dose of caffiene today which may be<BR>
a factor or I may just be slow.  Could you explain?<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:40:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 09:31 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
The mission was a success. Read the Ranger Creed to see what a real<BR>
world<BR>
unit feels about the same sort of situation.<BR>
<BR>
http://www-benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/CREED.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:34:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab: Yori<BR>
<BR>
As a bonus to those who liked the  Yori  write-up  (for  the  TML<BR>
Landgrab) here is a little  "For  Referee's  Eyes  Only"  snippit<BR>
*not* included on the web page:<BR>
<BR>
The local minor race (the Zurphani) are actually the Zerp  ...  a<BR>
race described in the supplement "Theta Borealis Sector" by Group<BR>
One (now out of print).  They were exiled from their homeworld of<BR>
Korsu  shortly  before  the  Zerp  discovered  jump  drive.   The<BR>
Zurphani's dim recollections of Korsu became the basis  of  their<BR>
mythical hell "Corsu".<BR>
<BR>
The original Zerp are now highly aggressive ... a  cross  between<BR>
Star Trek's Klingons and 2300AD's Kafers ... and have carved  out<BR>
the Korsung Empire, which covers a few subsectors (part in  Theta<BR>
Borealis sector).<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the 'fun' if players are well familiar with the  Zurphani<BR>
of Yori (use Yori regularly in your campaign background) and  one<BR>
day misjump into Theta Boralis sector!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:48:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 11:41 -0400 15/5/00, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
> This<BR>
>implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
>on the mission itself.<BR>
<BR>
Supported by the fourth film.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:43:19 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 8:56 -0400 15/5/00, "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release on your<BR>
>system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check *anything* you<BR>
>have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this is - and I quote -<BR>
>"streets ahead of other browsers and especially the older versions of<BR>
>Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports Internet standards so<BR>
>well."<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if you have a Mac try iCAB - http://www.iCAB.de/ small, <BR>
fast and bug reports non HTML 4 compliant code on sites you visit.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:38:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 8:56 -0400 15/5/00, J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:<BR>
>Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a copy<BR>
>of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the OSR-2<BR>
>version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version as well.<BR>
<BR>
OSR2 wasn't available retail in the UK, only to OEMs.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:37:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 8:56 -0400 15/5/00,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>I think both Survival Margin and MT:Imperial Encyclopedia<BR>
>describe Margaret as head of Tukera, the megacorp.  For all<BR>
>we know, Count Blaine Tukera is an incompetent dilettante,<BR>
>and though capable of being the 'head' of the family, not able<BR>
>to govern one of the largest megacorps in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
Rebellion Sourcebook, MT, p49<BR>
<BR>
"Margaret is married to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera, one of the three <BR>
sons in the upper reaches of management for the Imperium Spanning <BR>
Tukera Lines. The marriage provided Margaret with a loving husband <BR>
and devoted friend before the assassination of Strephon; the fact <BR>
that much of the power of Tukera could be placed in Margaret's <BR>
control provided her with additional support when it became apparent <BR>
that she was a pretender to the throne of the Imperium".<BR>
<BR>
Rebellion Sourcebook p17<BR>
<BR>
"Her marriage to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera (Tukera Lines Family) has <BR>
assured her of wealth, and him of influence. they make a great couple <BR>
at the pinnacle of society across the two sectors [Dom:Delphi and <BR>
Massilia]"<BR>
<BR>
I can't see any specific references beyond this in Arrival Vengeance, <BR>
Hard Times, Knightfall, Referee's Companion or Survival Margin. But <BR>
that was just after a short scan.<BR>
<BR>
There are no references that she is the head of Tukera - the <BR>
Rebellion Sourcebook is clear that she married into the family, to a <BR>
son at high levels. Nowhere can I see a reference that she is the <BR>
head of Tukera. Let me know if you see one.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:10:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/14/00 10:48 AM, allensh@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> They most certainly are! Quite a bit cheaper than<BR>
> you'd pay for the same stuff on eBay plus some extra<BR>
> goodies like the original map of Charted Space and<BR>
> Marc's interesting notes on the history of CT.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't realize there were extras, I was going to wait for the Supp's as I<BR>
have reacquired most of the early LBB's and the Traveller Big Book. Will<BR>
there be extras with the Supp's too? That original map, Hypercleats had one<BR>
that was black, glossy, and very large. Is this the same map?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:13:22 -0600 (MDT)<BR>
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
Dom,<BR>
<BR>
playnet.com is doing all stuff mac and PC.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Merrick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:09:26 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Hello Jens,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Have we played the same edition of Shadowrun? When we played, the magicians had<BR>
> a tendency of seriously hurting themselves with their magic.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, your magicians didn't know how to balance their spells'<BR>
power levels correctly and had too low willpower-attributes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:12:49 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Hello Dave,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
[snip the marines weren't too clever]<BR>
<BR>
ever heard of "narrative causality"?<BR>
Read Terry Prattchet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:31:39 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> At 09:31 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> The mission was a success. Read the Ranger Creed to see what a real world<BR>
<BR>
> unit feels about the same sort of situation.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> http://www-benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/CREED.htm<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</color>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in the <BR>
Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</param>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically <BR>
strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task <BR>
whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<nofill><BR>
Tim Reynolds 0608 6588C7<BR>
IMTU c+  t4  gt !tt  !tn  ?mt  ru  ge 3I - c+  -jt+  au+  st  ls  pi+  ta-  he+  kk++  hi  as  va  dr  ith  ne     <BR>
 so  zh-  vi  da-  sy++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:35:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 01:26 PM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I checked out the Ranger (danger!) URL, but I'm not making the<BR>
>connection on how that makes the Marine's in the Alien's movie a<BR>
>success.  I haven't had my requisite dose of caffiene today which may be<BR>
>a factor or I may just be slow.  Could you explain?<BR>
<BR>
It's in the last part of the creed.. "..although I be the last survivor."<BR>
The mission was to go out and find out why the colony was not answering<BR>
calls. They managed, under the leadership of a Corporal, to end a menace to<BR>
humanity. They never quit, even when Vasquez and Gorman were trapped, their<BR>
last act was an offensive one.<BR>
<BR>
No, I don't believe that 3 and 4 ever happened.  They are in the Pit of<BR>
Despair with Highlander 2.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
There was once a time when the church controlled the government.<BR>
The laws of the church were the laws of the land. Belief in God <BR>
was strong, teachings of the church were rarely questioned.<BR>
This time was called The Dark Ages.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:42:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
<BR>
I regret that I won't be able to attend, as I'll be in<BR>
Idaho (or more likely driving back through Nevada).  3, 10,<BR>
or 17 June work for me at this point, but I'd like to nail<BR>
it down fairly quickly.  3 June is probably my last choice,<BR>
as it is one of the days of Thai Cultural Fair in Golden<BR>
Gate Park.<BR>
<BR>
See you all soon.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --- Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com> wrote:<BR>
> In case anyone missed the first post of this or is new to<BR>
> the list.<BR>
> <BR>
> Next Saturday:<BR>
> <BR>
> The date for the next San Jose (near 101 & I-680)<BR>
> Traveller Meet will be<BR>
> May 20.  <BR>
> <BR>
> We'll start at 11:00 and have the usual format.<BR>
> <BR>
> Games:  Battle Rider<BR>
> Evening Game: Traveller RPG, assorted board games<BR>
> <BR>
> Pass the news on to anyone who is interested.  For more<BR>
> information<BR>
> email me at:<BR>
> travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
> <BR>
> Hope to see you there:<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:48:42 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release on your<BR>
> system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check *anything* you<BR>
> have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this is - and I quote -<BR>
> "streets ahead of other browsers and especially the older versions of<BR>
> Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports Internet standards so<BR>
> well."<BR>
<BR>
Except that Netscape 6 is a resource HOG!  At least,<BR>
currently.  Certainly, much of it will get optimized as<BR>
the beta progresses, but right now, I think you need<BR>
at least 64 mb ram to run it effectively.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:53:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Why  do people like Netscape?<BR>
<BR>
Part of it is vestigial underdog support, from when they<BR>
were independent and tilting at the windmill of Microsoft.<BR>
The more substantive reason that I use it - for mail - is<BR>
that its mail program kicks Outlook and Outlook Express<BR>
in the teeth, if you have to process lots of mail.<BR>
<BR>
IE 5 is _currently_ a much better browser for most<BR>
usage, especially since it doesn't reload a page when<BR>
you resize the window.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2433<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2434</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2434<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Request for review<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Real World TL21(?) Robot<BR>
Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
RE: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Another Request<BR>
RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
RE: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
Re: GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter Submissions<BR>
re: International Waters<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:55:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
Oooo... that's tempting. Although my "surprise" package from W23 is due<BR>
tomorrow, according to UPS, so maybe I'll just wait and see. :)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, what's a "Rell"?<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:54 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Request for review<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 1:16 -0400 15/5/00, "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com> wrote:<BR>
> >If you'll send me copies, I'll be happy to. :)<BR>
><BR>
> Tell you what, we'll swap you some money for a copy - say $8 +PP if<BR>
> you rell us via Warehouse23?<BR>
><BR>
> ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> >I might have 101 Patrons on order. If it arrives while I'm<BR>
> thinking about it<BR>
> >I'll post one.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:55:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 01:31 PM 5/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
><BR>
>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some. <BR>
<BR>
There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:13:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Tim wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
>>the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
>><BR>
>>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
>>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
>>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote in response:<BR>
<BR>
>There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
>asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
<BR>
That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy Scouts never have<BR>
been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base. By the time that kids hit<BR>
that age, they're too soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are certainly<BR>
mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty arts & crafts, and<BR>
brutal milk & cookies they're all about bustin' a few heads. Headquarters<BR>
just radios the commands to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do<BR>
some serious damage.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:22:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
All this talk of the Infantry got me thinking about Mercenaries, in fact<BR>
for those interested, today's Wall Street Journal has an article on<BR>
Mercenaries in the Opinion section written by the same guy who wrote<BR>
Dogs of War.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway,  I've read book four and I'm curious as to how people use<BR>
Mercenary Contracts/Units in their TU.<BR>
<BR>
I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:37:27 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
Same here, yet I snagged a copy anyway.  My ex-landlord ran a computer shop<BR>
and had a couple extra copies.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:38 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 8:56 -0400 15/5/00, J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Windows 95, ver. 1 as you call it, is HIGHLY unstable.  I have owned a<BR>
copy<BR>
> >of it and had nothing but problems from day one.  When I bought the OSR-2<BR>
> >version, these problems went away.  I suggest you get this version as<BR>
well.<BR>
><BR>
> OSR2 wasn't available retail in the UK, only to OEMs.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:31:54 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > At 09:31 AM 5/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> > >I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The mission was a success. Read the Ranger Creed to see what a real world<BR>
> > unit feels about the same sort of situation.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > http://www-benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/CREED.htm<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in the Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> <BR>
> Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Not surprising at all, since the scouts were based on a military model<BR>
of a regiment much like the Rangers. Boy Scouts were originally much<BR>
closer to military recon units than they are today.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:37:26 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Real World TL21(?) Robot<BR>
<BR>
David Smart writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>ObTrav: This used to be the realm of Ancients tech in<BR>
>Traveller. Looks like the TL was missed by quite a bit.<BR>
<BR>
	I may be missing something, but the system described<BR>
	does not look like Ancients technology.  Even if the<BR>
	claims made are accurate, it seams as if the system<BR>
	described is at least half conjectural.  In any event,<BR>
	it looks to me like a robot that can design and build<BR>
	its own locomotion system, and then later recycle that<BR>
	system.  Something like CT TL 9?  Sorry for being a<BR>
	little dubious, perhaps I am missing something.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:43:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
<BR>
Having just returned from Interop in Las Vegas, I had the following<BR>
inspiration for a Traveller game feature: Secrets of the Ancients, the<BR>
resort and casino. It's motivated by the Luxor, Caesar's Palace, and the<BR>
other fine establishments we have today in Las Vegas.<BR>
<BR>
I envision a huge pyrimidal building. possibly black on the outside. It's<BR>
set far away from civilization, in some suitably impressive surroundings.<BR>
Inside, the latest in TL15+ devices are used to create the necessary<BR>
atmosphere. Inside, guests experience lots of strange and interesting<BR>
effects which are difficult to explain, even for people used to TL15. You<BR>
have very cutting-edge technology here, imported from across charted space.<BR>
Cost is no object, since the lavish stuff is financed by the gambling. You<BR>
have gambling areas named after each major race, with holographic shows<BR>
describing the latest theories as to why that race are the *real*<BR>
descendants from the ancients. A big collection of artifacts, some real,<BR>
others not, is also a big attraction.<BR>
<BR>
It's too bad that I picked Esalin for the landgrab, since this place is<BR>
certainly out of place on a rich, agricultural, non-industrialized world<BR>
with a population of 2 million.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:50:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Luther Martin [mailto:martin@ksarul.com]<BR>
<BR>
> It's too bad that I picked Esalin for the landgrab, since <BR>
> this place is<BR>
> certainly out of place on a rich, agricultural, <BR>
> non-industrialized world<BR>
> with a population of 2 million.<BR>
<BR>
I dunno...<BR>
<BR>
How do you think they got rich?  Las Vegas is in the middle of nowhere.<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:50:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Gag is Off!!<BR>
<BR>
At 14:48 -0400 15/5/00, Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>playnet.com is doing all stuff mac and PC.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
Any chance of you posting the URL of your web pages? Someone was <BR>
asking about the Battle Rider fixes I recall downloading off them <BR>
some time ago?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:56:55 -0400<BR>
From: "James Fleming" <blackjack@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Tim wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
> >>the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
> >>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than<BR>
my<BR>
> >>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then<BR>
some.<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote in response:<BR>
<BR>
> >There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
> >asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
<BR>
Chris wrote:<BR>
> That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy Scouts never<BR>
have<BR>
> been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base. By the time that kids hit<BR>
> that age, they're too soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are<BR>
certainly<BR>
> mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty arts & crafts, and<BR>
> brutal milk & cookies they're all about bustin' a few heads. Headquarters<BR>
> just radios the commands to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do<BR>
> some serious damage.<BR>
<BR>
       Ahh, the memories.  My first Webelo merit badges were knot tying, and<BR>
Anti-personnel mine setting.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:04:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
<BR>
> There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have <BR>
> ever been<BR>
> asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
<BR>
But they *do* have adult leadership. :-)<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:04:57 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Another Request<BR>
<BR>
Gentles,<BR>
<BR>
I need someone with a copy of the December 1981 Space Gamer to get in touch<BR>
with me at lkw@io.com<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:04:08 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 05/15/00 at 10:48 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> I think I'll stick with FFS2's numbers. OTOH, I'd like PP's to more<BR>
>> closely match B2's than HG's or later.  I know some of you folks swear by<BR>
>> HG, but to me it's B2 for simple and one/both of the FFS's for complex. <BR>
<BR>
>I'd tend to agree with you, but for one thing - B2's lack of big ships, <BR>
>armour and guns other than lasers (mind you in turret sizes I suppose <BR>
>the latter applies to FFS too).<BR>
<BR>
Rupert, because I don't wargame Traveller I'm not especially interested in big warships.  The only ships that really interest me are PC-sized ships and B2 does that...so does QSDS, of course, but that's FFS in sheep's clothing. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:06:42 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
<BR>
That sounds like the perfect world to do something like that.  It would be like the other vacation spots, well away from the normal busy hubub, with little or no competition on planet.  You may want to do a little research on how the indian gaming casinos and Monte Carlo are run for some inspiration on this.  And just imagine how many P.C.s will think that they have the knowhow to rob the joint.<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:17:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/14/00 2:07 PM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
>>> 2) Would you like to see some supplements like sourcebooks?<BR>
>> I would like to see more like 101 Lifeforms, perhaps more focused on a class<BR>
>> of lifeforms like Sophonts, Domestics, or even simply Plants. 101 Sophonts<BR>
>> could include proto- and pseudo-sapients, geneered variants, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's one I'll mention. Would GURPS stats be key, or would Rob<BR>
> Prior's article on JTAS be enough?<BR>
<BR>
I don't use the GURPs rule-set, but many do. If it was included, I might use<BR>
bits of it, but I mainly like the "in setting" approach with descriptions<BR>
that PC's might pick up from their Library Data. For 101 Domestics? (I don't<BR>
/really/ like that title, but it gets the idea) you might group a bunch of<BR>
"pests" into an advertisment for some control system. Like a Round-Up<BR>
commercial. Or some minor pet-type critters into a pet care products ad. But<BR>
the 101 Sophonts would be my fave, I think.<BR>
<BR>
>> Another<BR>
>> idea is 101 Locations, with write-ups on places of interest, common<BR>
>> settings, miscellaneous facilities.<BR>
> <BR>
> This pretty much describes 101 Rendezvous which gives many locations<BR>
> for adventures? Was there some area in this that you felt was missing?<BR>
<BR>
OK, I need to buy that one too then. I am not sure what's in it, I got the<BR>
idea it was not real tourist oriented, and I'm thinking more of a tourist's<BR>
brochure. 101 Rendezvous was on my get list anyway.<BR>
 <BR>
>> I have yet to buy one of the adventures,<BR>
>> as I rarely use such supplements, but a good way to entice me would be<BR>
>> including maps, deckplans, diagrams, and handout type material.<BR>
> <BR>
> The adventures to date have deckplans and maps, plus some pages which<BR>
> are intended to be copied by the GM for players to use. The ships<BR>
> have GURPS and T4 stats.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I'll need to order them too then! ;)<BR>
 <BR>
>> Still, I'll<BR>
>> likely buy more of your other products before getting adventures, as I tend<BR>
>> to arbitrate matrix campaigns.<BR>
> <BR>
> Can you expand on this? Matrix campaigns instantly made me think of a<BR>
> certain film...<BR>
<BR>
Heh, I mean I set up "the stage" and just turn PC's loose with minimal<BR>
guidance. It means more set-up work for a campaign, and also tends to force<BR>
the players to be the drive for the game. Occasionally I've seen serious<BR>
friction develop between contrary interests, and break parties up into<BR>
separate campaigns set in the same world. My long-running fantasy campaign<BR>
did this /multiple/ times, and some groups were quite hostile to other<BR>
groups, even with players having characters in /both/ parties. It is quite<BR>
amusing to have a player plotting the murder of one of his characters by<BR>
another. I even ran a short-lived Star Wars campaign this way.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:20:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
<BR>
I love your idea, Luther. Write it up and send it to JTAS!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 3:43 PM<BR>
Subject: Secrets of the Ancients (no, not that one)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Having just returned from Interop in Las Vegas, I had the following<BR>
> inspiration for a Traveller game feature: Secrets of the Ancients, the<BR>
> resort and casino. It's motivated by the Luxor, Caesar's Palace, and the<BR>
> other fine establishments we have today in Las Vegas.<BR>
> <BR>
> I envision a huge pyrimidal building. possibly black on the outside. It's<BR>
> set far away from civilization, in some suitably impressive surroundings.<BR>
> Inside, the latest in TL15+ devices are used to create the necessary<BR>
> atmosphere. Inside, guests experience lots of strange and interesting<BR>
> effects which are difficult to explain, even for people used to TL15. You<BR>
> have very cutting-edge technology here, imported from across charted space.<BR>
> Cost is no object, since the lavish stuff is financed by the gambling. You<BR>
> have gambling areas named after each major race, with holographic shows<BR>
> describing the latest theories as to why that race are the *real*<BR>
> descendants from the ancients. A big collection of artifacts, some real,<BR>
> others not, is also a big attraction.<BR>
> <BR>
> It's too bad that I picked Esalin for the landgrab, since this place is<BR>
> certainly out of place on a rich, agricultural, non-industrialized world<BR>
> with a population of 2 million.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:23:10 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller: Modular Cutter Submissions<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >     3. Submissions must include:<BR>
> >          1. Description of the hull (streamlined vs. unstreamlined,<BR>
> >             armor, surface features)<BR>
> <BR>
> How does one design an *un*streamlined cylinder?  Can non-standard<BR>
> hull designs with the same connecting interfaces but different<BR>
> shapes and/or sizes be submitted? (I'm thinking of a Unity style<BR>
> multiple connection module as a cheap space station construction<BR>
> component.)<BR>
<BR>
Two things -<BR>
  a) an unstreamlined cylinder would be a a cylinder with antennae, sensors, <BR>
bumpy bitsm and spiky thingies...<BR>
  b) a module doesn't _have_ to be cylindrical. It could be rectangular <BR>
(squared edges sticking out past the cutter body), or even open frame (cage <BR>
like). Only the docking collar needs to match. And we're one step ahead of you -<BR>
 module connectors are included/described in the book, for building stations.<BR>
<BR>
> >          2. Complete listing of each construction module used.<BR>
> >             Construction modules can be drawn from any official GURPS<BR>
> >             Traveller publications, including the core rulebook, Star<BR>
> >             Mercs, Far Trader, First In, and Starports.<BR>
> <BR>
> GURPS Space 3rd edition Chapter 8 (p.107-132) has some starship<BR>
> module designs that are either unpowered, use negligable power, or<BR>
> actually provide power. As long as all the appropriate Traveller TL<BR>
> requirements are met, could these component modules be used? (Too<BR>
> bad GT: Starships isn't out yet; it's module list would make things<BR>
> much easier. ;))<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm...this is a Loren question. I don't know how _Traveller_ canonical Space <BR>
3e is...that's Managements call :)<BR>
<BR>
And you're right about Starships - but them's the breaks.<BR>
<BR>
> >          7. A rough deck plan should be given as well. Acceptable formats<BR>
> >             are .BMP, .GIF, .JPG, .PSD, .PCX, .PNG, .TIF, and .TGA. If<BR>
> >             you cannot create a deckplan, at the very least include a<BR>
> >             written description of the layout of the module. To<BR>
> >             facilitate this, we have prodivded a blank layout.<BR>
> <BR>
> >               Module deckplans (1/4" = 1 yard scale)<BR>
> >                       [3]150DPI .gif [59K]<BR>
> >                       [4]300DPI .gif [134K]<BR>
> <BR>
> Given the low ceiling height, how many hexes per internal space in<BR>
> the cutter module?<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's tricky - since the walls are sloped. But if you fudge the numbers, <BR>
anywhere between 6 and 8. Realize that some "hexes" will have more "space" (or <BR>
less) due to slope. Also, there is "space" in the floor of the lower deck and <BR>
the ceiling of the upper deck.<BR>
 <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> >    3. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter/img/modl150.gif<BR>
> >    4. http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/modularcutter/img/modl300.gif<BR>
> <BR>
> Could someone please convert these files into black-and-white bitmap<BR>
> (.BMP) format and send them to me? The only Windows computer I have<BR>
> access to is my mother's, and she won't buy any graphics programs or<BR>
> let me download and run any freeware from the internet. This leaves<BR>
> me with Paint and bitmaps, which I could convert to .JPG format with<BR>
> her Netscape Composer. (Yes, I *know* that's pathetic, but so is my<BR>
> life. :( ) I could also use B&W bitmap image files for some of the<BR>
> more common standard components (ex. chairs, beds, tables, freshers,<BR>
> consoles, iris valves, hatches, stairs, air rafts, etc.) on the same<BR>
> scale as the module deckplans so I could copy-and-past them, but I<BR>
> can try drawing them freehand it necessary.<BR>
<BR>
Done.<BR>
<BR>
Andy Akins<BR>
co-author, GURPS<BR>
Traveller<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:20:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>Um, no. They try to build a platform on those <BR>
>'seamounts' and they fall into the jurisdiction of the <BR>
>Cayman Islands.  The loonies behind 'New Utopia' are <BR>
>out of luck.<BR>
><BR>
>If they did it more than 200 miles from the nearest <BR>
>country,it might be different.<BR>
<BR>
I'm wondering what the limit is.  It won't be too long<BR>
before someone gets the idea to try something like<BR>
this and makes a real go of it, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
I hear that there's a treaty in the UN that demands<BR>
deep-sea resources be considered the property of the<BR>
whole world...or is that just the resources of deep<BR>
space?<BR>
<BR>
Regardless, I can imagine the argument going like<BR>
this: "Well you see, we aren't a member of or<BR>
signatory to anything of the UN.  If you'd like to <BR>
invite us to join, we're going to bring this territory <BR>
we've claimed with us.  Since you'll be recognizing us<BR>
as a country, you'll have to recognize this as our<BR>
territory, and you won't really be able to claim<BR>
that we can't develop our own territory, right?"<BR>
<BR>
>Did you look at the news section on these wackos?<BR>
>The financial backing comes from "Prince Lazarus Long",<BR>
>a millionaire from Tulsa, Ok.  Looks like someone has<BR>
>been reading too much Heinlein.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention Rand.<BR>
<BR>
>To become a citizen, you have to have no criminal <BR>
>record and fork over $1,500,which will allegedly be <BR>
>repaid at 9.5% interest.  530ignorant sods have<BR>
>already been hoodwinked.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that they're wasting their money, but I think<BR>
that something like this will happen eventually.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: On a frontier, how often will you meet people<BR>
trying to sell you a spot on a colony mission?<BR>
It can be a hell of a risk to be first, but if it's<BR>
set up right the reward could be commensurate.<BR>
<BR>
>The US SEC had frozen all of New Utopia's funds,<BR>
>because they started a bond sale/loan scheme, which<BR>
>US citizens can't participate in (because they can't<BR>
>meet the requirements to sell bonds in the US) -<BR>
>a big clue that its a scam.<BR>
<BR>
The way I understood the news item, this is a little<BR>
backwards - the reason they don't meet the requirements<BR>
to sell bonds in the US is specifically *because*<BR>
this type of bond cannot be sold directly to american<BR>
citizens, it isn't that US citizens can't buy it<BR>
because it hasn't passed some validity test.<BR>
<BR>
Not that there isn't something fishy about it, but<BR>
IMO that's a matter for investors to decide.<BR>
Personally, I think anyone should be allowed to offer<BR>
any investment plan with any interest rate they like,<BR>
as long as the plan is not based on fraud.*<BR>
A government that subsidizes gambling operations <BR>
(lotteries, casino gambling, raceways, deals with<BR>
Native American tribes, etc) is being hypocritical<BR>
when it prevents common citizens from making such<BR>
offers or accepting them.<BR>
<BR>
(*Of course, this does give us the problem of<BR>
differentiating between fraud, incompetence, and<BR>
misdirected optimism.)<BR>
<BR>
>Ah, yes.  Nothing like a good wacko and his cult<BR>
>of followerd on a slow day.<BR>
<BR>
Today was slow? Ah, good, it's nice to keep things<BR>
moving along.<BR>
<BR>
<G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:28:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
> For 101 Domestics? (I don't<BR>
> /really/ like that title, but it gets the idea) <BR>
<BR>
Um I must admit, when I see that title I don't think of<BR>
alien life-forms, but maids and home-care nurses.<BR>
"New from BITS: 101 Domestics. Perfect for PCs <BR>
who fail too many Aging rolls! Comes with statistics <BR>
for wheelchairs, dentures and orthopedic shoes!"<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:39:58 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS TO CT Conversion?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/15/00 at 07:57 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Eris, I did notice that Andrew's early post was addressed to you ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, we go around and around on this subject every few<BR>
months...it's tradition.  <g><BR>
<BR>
>The heretic objects to D3's? They're just a different take on a D6....<BR>
>;-)<BR>
<BR>
I object to *one* d3 in the whole task system.  That's inelegant.  I<BR>
don't object to lots and *lots* if that would give you a better<BR>
system, though. <g><BR>
<BR>
>>Tell you what, if you like half dice then I have an alternative for<BR>
>>you to consider.  What about *everytime* you get a skill level roll<BR>
>>a d3?  Level 1 would produce a Skill of 1, 2, or 3, with an expected<BR>
>>value of 2.  Level 2 would produce a Skill of 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, with<BR>
>>the EV being 4.  Level 3 would produce a Skill of 3 to 9, EV of 6,<BR>
>>and so on.  Now you don't need to 2.5d for Difficult and can go<BR>
>>straight 2/3/4/5/6/7 d6.  ;-p<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, I'm being thick and not following his?<BR>
<BR>
Because skills raise at an average (expected value) of 2 rather than<BR>
one you don't need the intermediate step between 2d and 3d.<BR>
<BR>
               Dif  For |                Dif       For<BR>
 Stat  Skill   2.5d 3d  | Stat  1d3      3d        4d<BR>
   7     1     43%  26% |   7    1-3  26/38/50%  5/10/16%<BR>
   7     2     57%  38% |   7    4*      63%       24%<BR>
   7     3     71%  50% |   7    6*      84%       44%<BR>
   <BR>
Okay, example: Bob, three terms --<BR>
<BR>
                 Roll<BR>
 Term One         1d3   Total     Tasks are       <BR>
   Astrogation-1   2      2       1d6  Easy       <BR>
   Carousing-1     1      1       2d6  Routine    <BR>
   Brawling-1      3      3       3d6  Difficult  <BR>
   Pistol-1        2      2       4d6  Formidable <BR>
 Term Two                         5d6  Staggering <BR>
   Brawling-2      2      4       6d6  Hopeless   <BR>
   Streetwise-1    1      1       7d6  Impossible <BR>
   Pilot-1         3      3<BR>
   Carousing-2     3      4<BR>
 Term Three<BR>
   Pilot-2         1      4<BR>
   Pistol-2        1      3<BR>
   Commo-1         2      2<BR>
   Gambling-1      2      2<BR>
<BR>
For Bob <BR>
 To Make a Difficult landing.<BR>
   Difficult (3d). Dex (8)+Pilot-2 (4). 74% success rate<BR>
 <BR>
 To hit a target at Long range with a pistol.<BR>
   Formidable (4d). Dex (8)+Pistol-2 (3). 24% success rate<BR>
   <BR>
 To find a fence on a high law planet.<BR>
   Difficult (3d).  Int (7)+Streetwise-1 (1). 26% success rate<BR>
   <BR>
Now you're using a d3 a *lot* during Character Gen, but it doesn't<BR>
have to be used during *play* at all.  You can justify the 1 to 3<BR>
difference in actual skill gained as natural aptitude and/or<BR>
training conditions.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, I still think Stats are given too much power, but the<BR>
basic 2d6 seems to be ingrained in Traveller psyche. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2434<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2435<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
[BITS] Website Update 15 May 2000<BR>
Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
RE: Request for review<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Heaven and Earth<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Legal Advice <BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:32:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or "insurgencies".<BR>
Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
<BR>
VR<BR>
<BR>
I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:27:55 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
On 05/15/00 at 01:17 PM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>> likely buy more of your other products before getting adventures, as I tend<BR>
>>> to arbitrate matrix campaigns.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Can you expand on this? Matrix campaigns instantly made me think of a<BR>
>> certain film...<BR>
<BR>
>Heh, I mean I set up "the stage" and just turn PC's loose with minimal<BR>
>guidance. It means more set-up work for a campaign, and also tends to<BR>
>force the players to be the drive for the game. <BR>
<BR>
I think he means the way Traveller adventures were *originally*<BR>
written by somebody that has slipped my mind...FASA, maybe.  <g><BR>
<BR>
That's the sort of adventure product I'd like to see too.  Give<BR>
me detailed background on a system (or three), a ship, some<BR>
organizations and npcs and provide some adventure hooks and that's<BR>
it.  I'd like Ref only sections for NPC hidden agendas and<BR>
motivations, but I don't need the book to tell me what the PC's<BR>
should do or what the outcomes should be...they Ref and PC's will<BR>
determine that.  Instead of 101 Somethings in 40 pages, maybe cover<BR>
one system with several mini-adventures in the same 40 pages?<BR>
  <BR>
Example:<BR>
  20 pages describing the planet Ruie, its culture, corporations,<BR>
     government, flora and fauna<BR>
  12 pages devoted to adventure nuggets and plot seeds<BR>
   8 pages devoted to Ref only material covering hidden agendas and<BR>
     plots<BR>
<BR>
How many of the "TML landgrabs" could be expanded to a 40 page<BR>
"Adventures on...." book? <BR>
    <BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:30:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Website Update 15 May 2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www,bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
News: 15 May 2000 - Traveller Trader Spreadsheet Mirrored at BITS.<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones has kindly let us mirror his 'Traveller Trader <BR>
Spreadsheet' for Excel 97+ at BITS. This comes in two versions <BR>
(Domain of Deneb and the Whole Imperium) and performs all the <BR>
MegaTraveller calculations for trade profit on all systems within <BR>
jump range, easing a referee's work in a mercantile campaign. (Also <BR>
usable with TNE, T4 and CT rules but the data provided is solely <BR>
Milieu 1100).<BR>
<BR>
Derrick's own site is at: http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar/<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested in knowing if the MacOS Excel 98 will run the <BR>
spreadsheet okay.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney (BITS webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:03:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
At 16:42 -0400 15/5/00,  "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu> wrote:<BR>
> > For 101 Domestics? (I don't<BR>
> > /really/ like that title, but it gets the idea)<BR>
><BR>
>Um I must admit, when I see that title I don't think of<BR>
>alien life-forms, but maids and home-care nurses.<BR>
>"New from BITS: 101 Domestics. Perfect for PCs<BR>
>who fail too many Aging rolls! Comes with statistics<BR>
>for wheelchairs, dentures and orthopedic shoes!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
that's pretty much what I initially thought.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:59:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
At 16:42 -0400 15/5/00, "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com> wrote:<BR>
>BTW, what's a "Rell"?<BR>
<BR>
It's like a 'tell'.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:37:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 03:04 PM 5/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But they *do* have adult leadership. :-)<BR>
<BR>
The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched a<BR>
light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
<BR>
Normally, officers are the cool, collected leader types, while the gun and<BR>
explosion mad are enlisted.. in the Rangers, *everybody* is in the latter<BR>
category.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:44:41 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> >Um, no. They try to build a platform on those<BR>
> >'seamounts' and they fall into the jurisdiction of the<BR>
> >Cayman Islands.  The loonies behind 'New Utopia' are<BR>
> >out of luck.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >If they did it more than 200 miles from the nearest<BR>
> >country,it might be different.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm wondering what the limit is.<BR>
<BR>
Uh, I just said it.  200 miles.<BR>
<BR>
But just building something out on the high seas<BR>
doesn't mean you can be a fully legit country.<BR>
<BR>
To be a sovereign, you need:<BR>
a defined territory,<BR>
an operating and effective government, and<BR>
independence from outside control.<BR>
[Law Among Nations, Gerhard von Glahn, 1986]<BR>
<BR>
Try to that in someone else's territory and at best,<BR>
you're a 'belligerent' (a legal term of art), at worst,<BR>
you're a dead 'criminal'.<BR>
<BR>
But to be treated like a sovereign country, you<BR>
need the recognition of other countries.  That is<BR>
a political act.  That brings duties and responsibilities.<BR>
Even without recognition, a new state could be<BR>
several punished for not behaving according to<BR>
customary international law, i.e., if most of the<BR>
other countries of the world agree that they have<BR>
the legal right to bomb you because you do something<BR>
nasty in your new state, or if you have assets elsewhere,<BR>
they can seize them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I hear that there's a treaty in the UN that demands<BR>
> deep-sea resources be considered the property of the<BR>
> whole world...or is that just the resources of deep<BR>
> space?<BR>
<BR>
Both.  IIRC, Technically, the conventions discussing<BR>
the deep sea bed, i.e., beyond the continental shelf,<BR>
require that all profits go to the UN.  So, no one has<BR>
an incentive to do it.<BR>
<BR>
According to the Moon Treaty (1979), which might<BR>
still be unratified in the US, "Neither the surface nor<BR>
the subsurface of the moon shall become national<BR>
property of any country" - quoting von Glahn.<BR>
[Incidentally, since no country can claim it as their<BR>
property, they can't convey title to any property,<BR>
so all those "Buy land on the Moon" schemes are<BR>
hooey.]  Other space treaties support the proposition<BR>
that no planet, satellite of other celestial body can<BR>
be owned by any country.<BR>
<BR>
> Regardless, I can imagine the argument going like<BR>
> this: "Well you see, we aren't a member of or<BR>
> signatory to anything of the UN.  If you'd like to<BR>
> invite us to join, we're going to bring this territory<BR>
> we've claimed with us.  Since you'll be recognizing us<BR>
> as a country, you'll have to recognize this as our<BR>
> territory, and you won't really be able to claim<BR>
> that we can't develop our own territory, right?"<BR>
<BR>
Um, not really.  First, for a vast majority of matters,<BR>
it doesn't matter that you are not a signatory to UN<BR>
conventions and treaties with 99% of all the other<BR>
countries of the world are.  You're going to be bound<BR>
by them in almost every court that isn't your own.<BR>
Why?  Because international treaties are law not only<BR>
because they are binding on the signatories, but because<BR>
they are evidence of "Customary International Law"<BR>
which a court will apply to you, signature or not, ratification<BR>
or not.<BR>
<BR>
It would be more like:  "Gee.  You managed to create<BR>
some real territory in the middle of nowhere.  Congratulations.<BR>
Here is the rule book.  Here are the fines for the international<BR>
conventions you've violated by disturbing the environment<BR>
so much.  Here is the bill for X% of your GDP that are your<BR>
UN dues.  Here is an order from the UN security council<BR>
temporarily halting further construction until an environmental<BR>
impact statement is concluded.  Here is the bill for the environmental<BR>
inspectors. Here is the bill for the inspection to prove you have<BR>
no dangerous chemicals, radioactive, or biologically hostile<BR>
materials here.  Etc., etc."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >The US SEC had frozen all of New Utopia's funds,<BR>
> >because they started a bond sale/loan scheme, which<BR>
> >US citizens can't participate in (because they can't<BR>
> >meet the requirements to sell bonds in the US) -<BR>
> >a big clue that its a scam.<BR>
><BR>
> The way I understood the news item, this is a little<BR>
> backwards - the reason they don't meet the requirements<BR>
> to sell bonds in the US is specifically *because*<BR>
> this type of bond cannot be sold directly to american<BR>
> citizens, it isn't that US citizens can't buy it<BR>
> because it hasn't passed some validity test.<BR>
<BR>
There is a reason that type of bond can't be sold in<BR>
the US . . . inability to ensure non-negligent and<BR>
non-fraudlent management.  It doesn't really matter.<BR>
Its stinks to high heaven.  Caveat Emptor.<BR>
<BR>
> A government that subsidizes gambling operations<BR>
> (lotteries, casino gambling, raceways, deals with<BR>
> Native American tribes, etc) is being hypocritical<BR>
> when it prevents common citizens from making such<BR>
> offers or accepting them.<BR>
<BR>
Calling these 'subsidies' is going a bit far.  These<BR>
gambling operations are pretty much outside the<BR>
federal government's jurisdiction because states<BR>
and Indian tribes retain some amount of sovereignty.<BR>
Certainly, the expansionist interpretation of the<BR>
Commerce Clause holds the door open for the<BR>
feds to regulate these operations at will, but that<BR>
is a whole lot different from actively endorsing and<BR>
supporting by way of subsidy.<BR>
<BR>
And what's wrong with hypocrisy, anyway?  :-)<BR>
It doesn't bother me that I can't build nuclear<BR>
warheads in my basement, but the federal<BR>
government can.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> (*Of course, this does give us the problem of<BR>
> differentiating between fraud, incompetence, and<BR>
> misdirected optimism.)<BR>
><BR>
> >Ah, yes.  Nothing like a good wacko and his cult<BR>
> >of followerd on a slow day.<BR>
><BR>
> Today was slow? Ah, good, it's nice to keep things<BR>
> moving along.<BR>
><BR>
> <G><BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:47:09 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Heaven and Earth<BR>
<BR>
As many people have already posted Heaven and Earth is available now.<BR>
Having used it for a few days I decided  to post the following comments.<BR>
<BR>
 An outstanding program that easily beats Galactic.  It will produce any<BR>
details required from systems, planets, sectors etc.  you can create the<BR>
systems according to any Traveller system (CT, MT, TNE T4, GT).  There is<BR>
room to add your own notes etc.  It will work out all the details down to<BR>
encounter tables, government NPC's and available cargo etc.  Not to mention<BR>
the fact that it produces world maps, system maps and Subsector maps.  The<BR>
program includes many sectors in World Builder deluxe format which can be<BR>
loaded directly into H&E, in addition it is apparently possible to load<BR>
galactic data though my system refused to accept the files I had.<BR>
<BR>
Outstanding piece of kit and amazingly it is freeware.  Download it from<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Fenris deserves huge congratulations for this outstanding piece of<BR>
kit, will be a boon to all traveller players.  (You can tell I like it can't<BR>
you).  the only downside is that generating a full sector can take about 6<BR>
hours!!  However I gave up trying to figure out how long it would take me to<BR>
do the same using the books, pencil and paper when I got to never (No way<BR>
would I be able to stick at this job for so long.)  :-)<BR>
<BR>
I intend to collapse the original sectors from World Builder Deluxe (Stuarts<BR>
previous program) and post them in zipped format on my website. This should<BR>
help those of you who have slower systems as you can simply load them into<BR>
H&E, then modify individual systems as required.  Then people can download<BR>
them to use/abuse/alter for their own games.  I hope to upload the first<BR>
sector tomorrow (probably Solomani Rim).<BR>
<BR>
Any comments/flames etc are most welcome, as always.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:   tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so<BR>
zh+ vi-<BR>
        And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:55:44 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Bruce wrote<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > <BR>
> > I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in the Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Not surprising at all, since the scouts were based on a military model<BR>
> of a regiment much like the Rangers. Boy Scouts were originally much<BR>
> closer to military recon units than they are today.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
First off Doug again I meant no insault on the Rangers or any other <BR>
military force, they server their nations with their lifes thats more <BR>
then most of us can say.<BR>
<BR>
But jeez it was just funny to see it.  But the Boy Scouts are <BR>
actually closer to Knights espically in reference to their code and <BR>
law.  And most military models in the Western tradations always <BR>
see the knight as a source of honor and bravery. <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:49:34 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
> That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the last time some<BR>
guy<BR>
> and his mates took over a Pacific Island, neither the NZ or Australian<BR>
> governments had the balls to do anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
The difference was that the Rabuka coup in Fiji was a local coup, and he had<BR>
enough local support to form a quite functional government.<BR>
<BR>
I might be sounding like something out of DFAT, but that is the significant<BR>
difference between that and the sort of 'Big Robbo and Friends' scenario<BR>
that would trigger external intervention.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
<BR>
>This is just an interpretation thing, and is just IMTU,<BR>
>but I tend to view the major nobles as holding their lands<BR>
>relatively independently of the Imperium.  That is, in<BR>
>many cases, their ancestors ruled their worlds<BR>
>before the Imperium ever existed, or, at least, the land <BR>
>has been in their family for centuries.  <BR>
<BR>
Before the Imperium was the Rule of Man, which is what the<BR>
Terrans who had conquered the Ziru Sirka called their<BR>
empire.  The Terrans placed military governors over Vilani<BR>
worlds and regions.  Normally, these people would pursue<BR>
their careers and be replaced through normal processes. <BR>
During the Long Night, and even for some time before,<BR>
however, the Rule of Man's governmental operations started<BR>
breaking down.  It was, after all, also called the<BR>
Ramshackle Empire.  <BR>
<BR>
The military governors began replacing themselves as they<BR>
saw fit, including by making their titles hereditary.  When<BR>
the Imperium began rebuilding the empire, one of the deals<BR>
it offered for joining was validation of existing titles.  <BR>
<BR>
At least, that's how I see it. I don't think any of the<BR>
foregoing contradicts canon -- or Alan.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:42:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>I suppose the ObTrav question would be: assuming no strong need to<BR>
>move the habitat, would you be better off putting the city on pylons,<BR>
>making it float on water, or making it gravitic?  I think we've already<BR>
>covered the problems with multi-level underwater habitats, so assume<BR>
>most living areas are intended to be above the surface.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm sure local conditions (water depth, weather, bottom composition)<BR>
>will affect the decision, I'm wondering what conditions would encourage<BR>
>each of the above three solutions, or additional ones.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
One alternative is a technology that is currently about 10 to 15 years old,<BR>
a tension leg platform (TLP).   TLPs have been used in waters of<BR>
approximately the depth indicated. If I am not wrong they were first used as<BR>
oil platforms in the North Sea in the late 70's early 80's.   An old girl<BR>
friend of mine was a design engineer for one of the first ones.  They are<BR>
simple in concept, you stabilize the platform by pulling it down into the<BR>
sea against its buoyancy.   The "legs" attaching it to the sea floor are<BR>
thus in tension and more like ridged cables than true legs.   I don't see<BR>
why the "cables" couldn't support habitats at various levels down to say 200<BR>
to 300 feet all connected and at standard pressure,  but then again I'm a<BR>
geologist and not an engineer.   It would be a bear trying to exit or enter<BR>
the facility at any depth.  It would seem to me that the options are that<BR>
you could (1) bring a vessel in through an under water channel and then up<BR>
to sea level in a central lagoon/moon pool,  (2) dock at depth and "air<BR>
lock" it, or (3) bring the vessel into a large chamber open to the sea at<BR>
depth shut a  water tight door and pump the chamber dry.   If you wanted to<BR>
use rather old technology you could form the habitats out of reinforced<BR>
concrete.   If I remember correctly they built some cargo ships using that<BR>
tech back in WWII.  The trick would be to use reinforcing material that is<BR>
stable in salt water just to be on the safe side.  In its simplest form it<BR>
could be a really huge concrete donut constructed elsewhere and towed to the<BR>
site and tensioned down.<BR>
<BR>
Well such are my suggestions anyone who wants is welcome to point out<BR>
pitfalls and errors of logic/design.<BR>
<BR>
One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by using<BR>
the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water and surface<BR>
water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely remember reading<BR>
something about it years ago but the physics seems on the face of it rather<BR>
counter intuitive.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:58:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 23:13, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > On Behalf Of Katharine Whitchurch<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Basically, small Pacific Island nations have two relatively large<BR>
> > regional powers (Australia and New Zealand) who are set to intervene to<BR>
> > toss out the Men Who Would Be King.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In the understatement of the week, New Zealand doesn't have a lot of<BR>
> > force-projection capability, but I wouldn't like to be on, say, Nuie<BR>
> > with twenty mates with Kalashnikovs, and knowing that somewhere out<BR>
> > there were 20 NZ Special Air Services types. They might be using a cargo<BR>
> > ship and then rubber dingys for the mission, but it still isnt something<BR>
> > I'd like to deal with.<BR>
> <BR>
> That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the last time some<BR>
> guy and his mates took over a Pacific Island, neither the NZ or Australian<BR>
> governments had the balls to do anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
If you're talking about Fiji I'm kinda glad we didn't (on our own, <BR>
anyway), as the Fijian army is rather larger than our entire military, <BR>
and would've been on its home ground.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:58:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: 1EP=250MW...seems too high<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 15:04, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert, because I don't wargame Traveller I'm not especially interested in<BR>
> big warships.  The only ships that really interest me are PC-sized ships<BR>
> and B2 does that...so does QSDS, of course, but that's FFS in sheep's<BR>
> clothing. <g><BR>
<BR>
I don't either, but I like looking at big toys :) Besides, as a friend <BR>
of mine said (about Alternity, IIRC), it's not whether or not you'll <BR>
ever use something like a capital ship construction rules set, it's <BR>
knowing that it's there if you need it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:58:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 14:37, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:04 PM 5/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >But they *do* have adult leadership. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched a<BR>
> light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
> <BR>
> Normally, officers are the cool, collected leader types, while the gun and<BR>
> explosion mad are enlisted.. in the Rangers, *everybody* is in the latter<BR>
> category.<BR>
<BR>
That would explain the NZ Infantry - our officers are only cool, <BR>
collected types when there's someone watching. Out in the bush all the <BR>
worthwhile ones are gun and explosion mad, too. <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice <BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>> I'm sort of hoping you have some crazy example from the<BR>
>> backwoods of how it could be otherwise.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>A law enforcement official wants to question a suspect. <BR>
>He asked the prosecutor if he can do it in the absence of<BR>
>council.  Legally, yes he can, provided the suspect does<BR>
>not invoke his right to council. The prosecutor must,<BR>
>under the legal ethics rule advise the officer that <BR>
>the suspect must have his lawyer present.  Gotta keep<BR>
>those lawyers employed.<BR>
<BR>
No, the prosecutor must advise the law enforcement officer<BR>
that the suspect must be informed of his right to have<BR>
counsel present during interrogation.  That is quite<BR>
different from stating that the suspect's counsel must be<BR>
present.<BR>
<BR>
The suspect decides whether to have counsel present.  Many<BR>
suspects decline (my reading in this area leans me toward<BR>
agreement with Magistrate Boyce of the US District Court<BR>
for the District of Utah, who has often said that many<BR>
criminals want to be caught).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:58:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 15:22, Chris Dixon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All this talk of the Infantry got me thinking about Mercenaries, in fact<BR>
> for those interested, today's Wall Street Journal has an article on<BR>
> Mercenaries in the Opinion section written by the same guy who wrote Dogs<BR>
> of War.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway,  I've read book four and I'm curious as to how people use<BR>
> Mercenary Contracts/Units in their TU.<BR>
> <BR>
> I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
> assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will stop<BR>
> trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you are a<BR>
> mercenary?<BR>
> <BR>
> If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
> types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
> to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
<BR>
It will if you know that keeping after mercs will have all the arms <BR>
dealers, etc and the large banks that hold the repatriation bonds <BR>
embargoing you.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:58:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 8:06, J-Man wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I had no end of problems with the Upgrade version.  Try running it with an<BR>
> EZDrive overlay..FUN!  :)  I'm frankly surprised you had no problems, the<BR>
> Upgrade version was so bad I don't even consider it a valid operating<BR>
> system.<BR>
<BR>
Probably comes from having a machine that at the time had very few <BR>
unusual peices of hardware in it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:08:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A newbie posts<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
>It's odd actually, but the only TNE campaign I ever ran<BR>
>(18 months or so ago now) I was struggling to *avoid*<BR>
>killing the players...  admittedly half of them weren't<BR>
>wearing armour, and they were the ones that were really<BR>
>suffering, and they were in some large firefights rather <BR>
>than simple single shots with a revolver situations, but<BR>
>people were getting serious wounds and blacking out with<BR>
>regularity.<BR>
><BR>
>And I was simply using the standard rules from the book<BR>
<BR>
It sounds like the rules are working.  Standard rules for<BR>
real life include, "avoid firefights."  Traveller is not a<BR>
cinematic/fantasy game, so it should approximate real life<BR>
in some ways.  This is one of the ways.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2435<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 15 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2436<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Legal Advice<BR>
RE: Legal Advice <BR>
Re: Legal Advice<BR>
Re: Dos software<BR>
Hivers at it Again?<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
Re: International Waters <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
Re: Request for review<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
Re: Speculative Trade in Java<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:18:04 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The suspect decides whether to have counsel present.  Many<BR>
> suspects decline (my reading in this area leans me toward<BR>
> agreement with Magistrate Boyce of the US District Court<BR>
> for the District of Utah, who has often said that many<BR>
> criminals want to be caught).<BR>
<BR>
The vast majority that I've encountered are also<BR>
bone stupid, even the non-drug-addicted.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:21:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Legal Advice <BR>
<BR>
> No, the prosecutor must advise the law enforcement officer<BR>
> that the suspect must be informed of his right to have<BR>
> counsel present during interrogation.  That is quite<BR>
> different from stating that the suspect's counsel must be<BR>
> present.<BR>
><BR>
> The suspect decides whether to have counsel present.  Many<BR>
> suspects decline (my reading in this area leans me toward<BR>
> agreement with Magistrate Boyce of the US District Court<BR>
> for the District of Utah, who has often said that many<BR>
> criminals want to be caught).<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
The local AUSAs apparently have a different interpretation, going to great<BR>
lengths to advise LEOs in 'hypothetical' situations. At what point does the<BR>
individual need to be informed of his right to council, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:36:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The local AUSAs apparently have a different interpretation, going to great<BR>
> lengths to advise LEOs in 'hypothetical' situations. At what point does the<BR>
> individual need to be informed of his right to council, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
No later than the time at which he is in custody.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:26:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dos software<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Someone mentioned having a dos based sound player.<BR>
<BR>
There are at least a couple. I prefer this one for most stuff:<BR>
<BR>
The QuickView Homepage: http://www.multimediaware.com/qv/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:06:15 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
<BR>
I was just looking through the MT encyclopedia time line and <BR>
noticed that the long night began only 26 years after meeting the <BR>
Hivers.  Hmmm Long Night as a Hiver Manipulation to prevent the <BR>
spread of man<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:31:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm wondering what the limit is.  It won't be too long<BR>
> before someone gets the idea to try something like<BR>
> this and makes a real go of it, IMO.<BR>
><BR>
> I hear that there's a treaty in the UN that demands<BR>
> deep-sea resources be considered the property of the<BR>
> whole world...or is that just the resources of deep<BR>
> space?<BR>
<BR>
Both. Except that the US was talked *out* of signing the "Moon Treaty",<BR>
so *we* don't recognize space resources as belonging to the "whole<BR>
world". <BR>
<BR>
> Regardless, I can imagine the argument going like<BR>
> this: "Well you see, we aren't a member of or<BR>
> signatory to anything of the UN.  If you'd like to <BR>
> invite us to join, we're going to bring this territory <BR>
> we've claimed with us.  Since you'll be recognizing us<BR>
> as a country, you'll have to recognize this as our<BR>
> territory, and you won't really be able to claim<BR>
> that we can't develop our own territory, right?"<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem. Some folks *tried* that in the Pacific. And a gunboat<BR>
from the nearest country (Tonga? Fiji?) sailed out and informed them<BR>
that they were now part of that country.<BR>
<BR>
Sovereignty *requires* either the ability to *defend* your territory,<BR>
or recognition by a country willing to defend it or you.<BR>
<BR>
That's why *none* of these schemes has a prayer of working. If they<BR>
build it up into something worthwhile, somebody will take it away. The<BR>
outfit in the Pacific got the last laugh on that. They let the country<BR>
*have* the *unfinished* platform on the reef, and left. The<BR>
confiscating country didn't have the ability to finish, or even<BR>
*maintain* the platform. <BR>
<BR>
And if you do something that another country objects too (like<BR>
"illegal" gene research) then they'll just stomp you unless you can<BR>
protect yourself. <BR>
<BR>
And private citizens will have one *hell* of a time buying armed<BR>
vessels or aircraft, so protecting yourself isn't possible until<BR>
*after* you are recognized as a government. (Unless Russia needs cash<BR>
bad enough to sell you some obsolete fleet units, and even then it'll<BR>
cost like crazy!)<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, it's somewhat simpler in a way. If you aren't going to<BR>
violate *Imperial* laws, then you can grab any unclaimed world and set<BR>
up whatever you like. Just hire some mercs to protect against attacks<BR>
from upset neighbors.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:28:08 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-15 01:20:01 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
 subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
 country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I suppose it all depends on who decides to recognize them . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:42:42 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Both. Except that the US was talked *out* of signing the "Moon Treaty",<BR>
> so *we* don't recognize space resources as belonging to the "whole<BR>
> world".<BR>
<BR>
Which doesn't mean the terms of it cannot be applied to<BR>
the US.  It all depends on which court is asking the question,<BR>
and what control they have over relevant organizations.<BR>
<BR>
> Sovereignty *requires* either the ability to *defend* your territory,<BR>
> or recognition by a country willing to defend it or you.<BR>
<BR>
Recognition isn't required for sovereignty.  Achieving<BR>
sovereignty is a physical act, i.e., expelling opponents.<BR>
Recognition is a politcal act.  You can 'recognize'<BR>
entities and organizations that aren't sovereigns.<BR>
And you can not-recognize sovereigns that do exist.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:54:46 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> In the book the area had been declared secure.  But once the unit started<BR>
> to move they should have had air support.  But as you pointed out they did<BR>
> have to kill off a lot of people and equipment fast so they took lots of<BR>
> liberty with the plot.  Like the drop ship hitting the APC when it crashed<BR>
> with a whole planet to hit.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Heheheh... That was probably the most realistic thing in the movie that can<BR>
be related to the real world... military history is littered with "drop ship<BR>
hitting the APC when it crashed with a whole planet to hit"-type situations!<BR>
<BR>
- - The only vehicle carrying the remaining spare fuel is the only one to hit<BR>
a mine...<BR>
- - The only medic is the first killed...<BR>
- - The only guide is the first killed...<BR>
- - A failed take-off crashes into the control tower when the rest of the<BR>
field is empty...<BR>
- - The only supplies that didn't arrive were the only ones needed...<BR>
- - The building with the vital data is the only one in the city that is<BR>
bombed...<BR>
<BR>
These were just some off the top of my head that I can recall reading in<BR>
various military history books, I'm sure other readers could compile many,<BR>
many more... so I don't particularly think it was a plot liberty, just a<BR>
"truth is stranger than fiction"-thing<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:00:49 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters <BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> > I'm wondering what the limit is.<BR>
<BR>
> Uh, I just said it.  200 miles.<BR>
<BR>
The limit is 200 nautical miles, not 200 statute miles, right?<BR>
<BR>
"Nautical Mile <BR>
<BR>
1 international nautical mile = 1.852 km = 1.1508 miles = 6076.1155 feet <BR>
<BR>
The international nautical mile is also known as the international air<BR>
mile. <BR>
<BR>
The geographical nautical mile is 6080 feet (0.064% larger)."<BR>
<BR>
http://crsp3.nrl.navy.mil/creme96/cm/Nautmile.htm<BR>
<BR>
So 200 nautical miles [nmi, naut mi, or NM] is approximately <BR>
230.16 statute miles or exactly 370.40 km.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:56:18 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
<BR>
At 08:28 PM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-05-15 01:20:01 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
>  subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
>  country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
>I suppose it all depends on who decides to recognize them . . .<BR>
<BR>
The trick is not to make a country, but buy one.  That way it'll already be <BR>
recoginzed....<BR>
<BR>
For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government, <BR>
has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer <BR>
each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect <BR>
yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants to <BR>
the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
<BR>
Is there anything illegal about this?<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:08:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> > Sovereignty *requires* either the ability to *defend* your territory,<BR>
> > or recognition by a country willing to defend it or you.<BR>
> <BR>
> Recognition isn't required for sovereignty.  Achieving<BR>
> sovereignty is a physical act, i.e., expelling opponents.<BR>
> Recognition is a politcal act.  You can 'recognize'<BR>
> entities and organizations that aren't sovereigns.<BR>
> And you can not-recognize sovereigns that do exist.<BR>
<BR>
In the social sciences, we refer to recognized regimes as having<BR>
"juridical statehood," while sovereign ones (as you put it) <BR>
have "empirical statehood." I thought you might appreciate this <BR>
lesson in authentically pretentious jargon... <BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:06:55 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:54 AM 5/16/00 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Heheheh... That was probably the most realistic thing in the movie that can<BR>
>be related to the real world... military history is littered with "drop ship<BR>
>hitting the APC when it crashed with a whole planet to hit"-type situations!<BR>
><BR>
>- The only vehicle carrying the remaining spare fuel is the only one to hit<BR>
>a mine...<BR>
>- The only medic is the first killed...<BR>
>- The only guide is the first killed...<BR>
>- A failed take-off crashes into the control tower when the rest of the<BR>
>field is empty...<BR>
>- The only supplies that didn't arrive were the only ones needed...<BR>
>- The building with the vital data is the only one in the city that is<BR>
>bombed...<BR>
><BR>
>These were just some off the top of my head that I can recall reading in<BR>
>various military history books, I'm sure other readers could compile many,<BR>
>many more... so I don't particularly think it was a plot liberty, just a<BR>
>"truth is stranger than fiction"-thing<BR>
><BR>
>-- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To (mis?)quote Terry Pratchett:<BR>
<BR>
Every scientist would tell you that the odd of that happening are a million <BR>
to one.  However, and wizard would tell you that million-to-one odds happen <BR>
nine out of ten times.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:13:27 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
<BR>
Juliean Galak wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The trick is not to make a country, but buy one.  That way it'll already be<BR>
> recoginzed....<BR>
><BR>
> For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
> has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
> each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
> yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants to<BR>
> the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
><BR>
> Is there anything illegal about this?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the local constitution.<BR>
<BR>
I think it might work.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:04:04 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 16:42 -0400 15/5/00, "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com> wrote:<BR>
>>BTW, what's a "Rell"?<BR>
><BR>
>It's like a 'tell'.<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ah! You mean it's another word for a middle-eastern artificial hill formed<BR>
by the decaying remains of several superimposed mud-brick villages/towns<BR>
over millennia of occupation. <g,d & r><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:27:24 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > Sovereignty *requires* either the ability to *defend* your territory,<BR>
> > > or recognition by a country willing to defend it or you.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Recognition isn't required for sovereignty.  Achieving<BR>
> > sovereignty is a physical act, i.e., expelling opponents.<BR>
> > Recognition is a politcal act.  You can 'recognize'<BR>
> > entities and organizations that aren't sovereigns.<BR>
> > And you can not-recognize sovereigns that do exist.<BR>
><BR>
> In the social sciences, we refer to recognized regimes as having<BR>
> "juridical statehood," while sovereign ones (as you put it)<BR>
> have "empirical statehood." I thought you might appreciate this<BR>
> lesson in authentically pretentious jargon...<BR>
<BR>
Those are strictly junior varisty.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The varsity team has these:<BR>
de jure recognition (recognized in law)<BR>
de facto recognition (recognised by fact)<BR>
terra nullius (nobody home)<BR>
collective nonrecognition (we don't see you)<BR>
<BR>
just for starters.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:28:13 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 11:06 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> To (mis?)quote Terry Pratchett:<BR>
><BR>
> Every scientist would tell you that the odd of that happening are a<BR>
million<BR>
> to one.  However, and wizard would tell you that million-to-one odds<BR>
happen<BR>
> nine out of ten times.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
LOL!  Exactly!  My current gaming group's favourite quote is the ol'<BR>
"Million to one chances happen nine-times-out-of-ten!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:32:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speculative Trade in Java<BR>
<BR>
Woo hoo!  I just finished school and I dream in Java.  I'll write it in my<BR>
sleep!<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rob Eaglestone" <downport@home.com><BR>
> Ahem... well, I don't suppose anybody has done/wants to<BR>
> do Book 2's Speculative Trade in Java?  I started on it<BR>
> but just don't have the energy to do it... maybe later.<BR>
> (I'm worried that "maybe later" may become "maybe never").<BR>
><BR>
[snippage]<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody?  Anybody?  Beuller?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:50:10 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tim wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
> >>the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
> >>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
> >>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
><BR>
> Doug wrote in response:<BR>
><BR>
> >There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
> >asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
><BR>
> That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy Scouts never have<BR>
> been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base. By the time that kids hit<BR>
> that age, they're too soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are certainly<BR>
> mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty arts & crafts, and<BR>
> brutal milk & cookies they're all about bustin' a few heads. Headquarters<BR>
> just radios the commands to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do<BR>
> some serious damage.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be more worried about the Girl Guides...little girls can be _mean_<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:12:04 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:00 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > In the book the area had been declared secure.  But once the unit started<BR>
> > to move they should have had air support.  But as you pointed out they did<BR>
> > have to kill off a lot of people and equipment fast so they took lots of<BR>
> > liberty with the plot.  Like the drop ship hitting the APC when it crashed<BR>
> > with a whole planet to hit.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Heheheh... That was probably the most realistic thing in the movie that can<BR>
> be related to the real world... military history is littered with "drop ship<BR>
> hitting the APC when it crashed with a whole planet to hit"-type situations!<BR>
><BR>
> - The only vehicle carrying the remaining spare fuel is the only one to hit<BR>
> a mine...<BR>
> - The only medic is the first killed...<BR>
> - The only guide is the first killed...<BR>
> - A failed take-off crashes into the control tower when the rest of the<BR>
> field is empty...<BR>
> - The only supplies that didn't arrive were the only ones needed...<BR>
> - The building with the vital data is the only one in the city that is<BR>
> bombed...<BR>
><BR>
> These were just some off the top of my head that I can recall reading in<BR>
> various military history books, I'm sure other readers could compile many,<BR>
> many more... so I don't particularly think it was a plot liberty, just a<BR>
> "truth is stranger than fiction"-thing<BR>
><BR>
> -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
IMO the funniest example of this was the WW2 submarine tender that came under<BR>
attack, was hit once, and had on compartment burnt out...the "essential paper<BR>
supplies" for the whole squadron.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:23:46 -0500<BR>
From: shimmer <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
I think I will just wait till next year when I have a new machine.  Neither of the<BR>
programs have what i really want in a star map generator anyway.  And that is the ability<BR>
to 'draw' out my stellar densities and governments in multiple, non circular regions<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry to hear that. I can definitely recommend World Builder Deluxe, which *should*<BR>
> run without the IE requirement IIRC. (There is a copy of the final version of WBD on<BR>
> the H&E website: off www.downport.com)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------<BR>
Earth first!   We'll strip mine the other planets later...<BR>
<BR>
dragon@mhtc.net<BR>
http://www.mhtc.net/~dragon/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:27:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 15 May 00, at 16:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And private citizens will have one *hell* of a time buying armed<BR>
> vessels or aircraft, so protecting yourself isn't possible until<BR>
> *after* you are recognized as a government. (Unless Russia needs cash bad<BR>
> enough to sell you some obsolete fleet units, and even then it'll cost<BR>
> like crazy!)<BR>
<BR>
Not entirely true. Any reasonably sized company should be able to swing <BR>
a few helicopters, and GPMGs are fairly easy to come by. This gives you <BR>
an airforce of sorts, and the ability to shoot up small boats. In fact <BR>
with a few zodaics and some LAWs added in you'd have a military <BR>
comparable to that of a fair number of island nations. The problem is <BR>
that if you do get into a shooting war with one the bag boys will step <BR>
in and you're screwed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:56:44 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > > > Sovereignty *requires* either the ability to *defend* your territory,<BR>
> > > > or recognition by a country willing to defend it or you.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Recognition isn't required for sovereignty.  Achieving<BR>
> > > sovereignty is a physical act, i.e., expelling opponents.<BR>
> > > Recognition is a politcal act.  You can 'recognize'<BR>
> > > entities and organizations that aren't sovereigns.<BR>
> > > And you can not-recognize sovereigns that do exist.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In the social sciences, we refer to recognized regimes as having<BR>
> > "juridical statehood," while sovereign ones (as you put it)<BR>
> > have "empirical statehood." I thought you might appreciate this<BR>
> > lesson in authentically pretentious jargon...<BR>
><BR>
> Those are strictly junior varisty.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> The varsity team has these:<BR>
> de jure recognition (recognized in law)<BR>
> de facto recognition (recognised by fact)<BR>
> terra nullius (nobody home)<BR>
> collective nonrecognition (we don't see you)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The smoke test for this will come in the near future when people start building<BR>
space colonies...a couple of different views...<BR>
Clarke County, Space.  by Allen Steele<BR>
Second Star and A Handful of Stars by Dana Stabenow<BR>
<BR>
Building your own acareage, whether on the ocean or at L5 qualifies (probably)<BR>
as terra nullius...the tricky part is de jure/de facto recognition and repaying<BR>
the start-up cost.<BR>
<BR>
Defending your acreage can be tricky...a space/sea colony is a lot more fragile<BR>
than a surface nation/state. Space colonies, being closed systems, are a lot<BR>
more vunreable to non-conventional warfare...bio/chemo would kill/incapacitate<BR>
to population leaving the infrastructure intact. You are also a sitting duck<BR>
for people throwing rocks. OTOH you have the gravity drop on anyone on-planet.<BR>
<BR>
Comments??<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:06:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> depth shut a  water tight door and pump the chamber dry.   If you wanted to<BR>
> use rather old technology you could form the habitats out of reinforced<BR>
> concrete.   If I remember correctly they built some cargo ships using that<BR>
> tech back in WWII.  The trick would be to use reinforcing material that is<BR>
> stable in salt water just to be on the safe side.  In its simplest form it<BR>
> could be a really huge concrete donut constructed elsewhere and towed to the<BR>
> site and tensioned down.<BR>
<BR>
They use concrete to build *yachts* now!<BR>
<BR>
> One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by using<BR>
> the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water and surface<BR>
> water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely remember reading<BR>
> something about it years ago but the physics seems on the face of it rather<BR>
> counter intuitive.<BR>
<BR>
Probably because you've got cause and effect swapped. The power<BR>
generation results in warming the bottom waters and *that* creates the<BR>
upwelling. <BR>
<BR>
Basiclly, you take some sort of working fluid that's a gas at surface<BR>
temps, and a liquid at bottom temps. pump it down to a big condenser on<BR>
or near the bottom. The heat given off as the gas condenses to a liquid<BR>
heats the water, which rises, carrying along nutrients.<BR>
<BR>
The liquid gets pumped to the surface and powers a generator by<BR>
expanding into a gas again. Simple heat engine.<BR>
<BR>
The articifical upwelling make aquaculture easier. The big worry is<BR>
that you may disrupt the deep currents with a big installation. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2436<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2437</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2437<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Gal 2.3 Data?<BR>
Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Imp Nobles updated<BR>
CT Reprints<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
RE: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:57:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
<BR>
That's "re-patriation", not "reparation". The forme means (roughly)<BR>
"return to home", the latter "payment for damages".<BR>
<BR>
> mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or "insurgencies".<BR>
> Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
> that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
> opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
> probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
> does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
> that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
> merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
<BR>
Well, in the "Hammer's Slammers" universe, part of the reason the work<BR>
is that theyare contracts with the big financial networks, not with the<BR>
mercs themselves. <BR>
<BR>
So if you eliminate a merc unit, you'll have the interstellar *bankers*<BR>
wanting to use you as an example. Which means no loans, and no way to<BR>
hide money off-planet for your "retirement". That tends to keep<BR>
everybody but the *real* fanatics in line, and with those, their<BR>
*underlings* are apt to off them for the reward...<BR>
<BR>
> I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
> assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
> stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
> are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
That's not the way it works. It's more a case of if you are captured,<BR>
they can just have you shipped home for free, with the clause that if<BR>
you return and get captured again, they can off you. <BR>
<BR>
This eliminates you from the fight *without* the cost of a POW camp,<BR>
*and* without the problems "shoot all prisoners" would cause.<BR>
<BR>
> If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
> types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
> to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
<BR>
Going after them is equivalent to shooting prisoners. Which means that<BR>
when folks on *your* side get captured or surrender, *they* are likely<BR>
to get shot too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:27:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> > In the social sciences, we refer to recognized regimes as having<BR>
> > "juridical statehood," while sovereign ones (as you put it)<BR>
> > have "empirical statehood." I thought you might appreciate this<BR>
> > lesson in authentically pretentious jargon...<BR>
> <BR>
> Those are strictly junior varisty.  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> The varsity team has these:<BR>
> de jure recognition (recognized in law)<BR>
> de facto recognition (recognised by fact)<BR>
> terra nullius (nobody home)<BR>
> collective nonrecognition (we don't see you)<BR>
<BR>
Yep, but that's *amateur* varsity, kid. Real, Manly Social Scientists (RMSS)<BR>
use the word "state" at least twice in every sentence. (Or at least we did<BR>
the last time I paid attention, when "state theory" was fashionable.) <BR>
<BR>
:-) Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:32:12 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Gal 2.3 Data?<BR>
<BR>
It seems that Gal 2.4 doesn't contain several sectors of<BR>
data that were in Gal 2.3.  Anyone have the 2.3 data?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:29:51 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
<BR>
I haven't been following things out there in ther past few years -- what's <BR>
been happening in the Spratley's lately? Last I heard the Chinese, <BR>
Vietnamese, Phillipinos and Malaysians were trying to decide who owns the oil <BR>
that may or may not be there in exploitable quantities. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:36:25 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Do we need to get to the point where we initiate<BR>
the defenestration of the antidisestablishmentarianists?<BR>
<BR>
Bloo<BR>
ex-social scientist, lawyer, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > In the social sciences, we refer to recognized regimes as having<BR>
> > > "juridical statehood," while sovereign ones (as you put it)<BR>
> > > have "empirical statehood." I thought you might appreciate this<BR>
> > > lesson in authentically pretentious jargon...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Those are strictly junior varisty.  ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The varsity team has these:<BR>
> > de jure recognition (recognized in law)<BR>
> > de facto recognition (recognised by fact)<BR>
> > terra nullius (nobody home)<BR>
> > collective nonrecognition (we don't see you)<BR>
><BR>
> Yep, but that's *amateur* varsity, kid. Real, Manly Social Scientists (RMSS)<BR>
> use the word "state" at least twice in every sentence. (Or at least we did<BR>
> the last time I paid attention, when "state theory" was fashionable.)<BR>
><BR>
> :-) Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:40:37 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The smoke test for this will come in the near future when people start building<BR>
> space colonies...a couple of different views...<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Comments??<BR>
<BR>
5 will get you 10 that as soon as it is a viable enterprise,<BR>
the UN will start dealing with it.  So, IMHO, we will<BR>
eventually see a Convention on Non-Terrestrial Statehood.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:43:05 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Imp Nobles updated<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to those who suppled me info:<BR>
<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:46:25 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
FYI, you're right!  Good stuff.  I found one copy left at a store about 1<BR>
hour from here.<BR>
Can't wait for next edition!<BR>
<BR>
"Imperial Marines love to mud wrestle."  <BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:20:11 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 04:02 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Erwin Fritz wrote:<BR>
> > > As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement<BR>
> > > too.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very<BR>
> > inexperienced. Wasn't it his first combat drop? Good thing he<BR>
> > died, because there probably would have been a court martial<BR>
> > when he got back.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually it was his 2nd *non*-simulated combat drop ...  however,<BR>
>if you're handing out court martials I would suggest  giving  one<BR>
>to whomever it was assigned a mission to such a green officer  as<BR>
>leader.  I've always felt that Lt Gorman was set-up by Burke  ...<BR>
>possibly Burke pulled some strings thinking Gorman would be  easy<BR>
>to manipulate (planning  ahead  to  recovering  an  alien).  This<BR>
>implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
>on the mission itself.<BR>
><BR>
>Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
That is what the ALIENS: Colonial Marines Technical Manual implied. Mainly, <BR>
that some senior officers getting close to retirement listened to Burke's <BR>
suggestion to send as small a force as possible. A smaller unit meant fewer <BR>
people to bribe to stay quiet if the Company wanted to smuggle something <BR>
back. Unfortunately, nobody believed Ripley's story about how dangerous the <BR>
aliens were, so they thought one section of marines would be enough to <BR>
handle any problems.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:36:14 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there is always David Drake's solution to the problem. You come <BR>
down hard on captured mercenaries, and you better be able to chip new <BR>
fusion plants out of stone. 'Cause you ain't going to have any <BR>
interplanetary trade after that. Or if the Bonding Authority is really <BR>
ticked off, it may just hire a couple of regiments to come "explain" <BR>
certain facts of life to said leader.<BR>
<BR>
At 05:32 PM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
>mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or "insurgencies".<BR>
>Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
>that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
>opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
>probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
>does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
>that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
>merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
><BR>
>VR<BR>
><BR>
>I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
>assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
>stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
>are a mercenary?<BR>
><BR>
>If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
>types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
>to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
><BR>
>Chris<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:47:45 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
At 06:42 PM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by using<BR>
>the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water and surface<BR>
>water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely remember reading<BR>
>something about it years ago but the physics seems on the face of it rather<BR>
>counter intuitive.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
OTEC - Ocean Thermal Energy Converter<BR>
<BR>
I understand the University of Hawii ran one for quite a while. The problem <BR>
(IIRC) is that in order for them to be cost effective, it has to have a <BR>
year round temperture differential of 40 degrees between your intake and <BR>
out flow valve. Places like that are hard to find near land.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:15:18 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
At 08:06 PM 5/15/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> > One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by using<BR>
> > the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water and surface<BR>
> > water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely remember reading<BR>
> > something about it years ago but the physics seems on the face of it rather<BR>
> > counter intuitive.<BR>
><BR>
>Probably because you've got cause and effect swapped. The power<BR>
>generation results in warming the bottom waters and *that* creates the<BR>
>upwelling.<BR>
<BR>
Well, a simple thermocouple will generate electricity based on temperature <BR>
difference (I don't know about density).  It's the same principle (I think) <BR>
used in an RTG.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:29:19 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
<BR>
T4, T4.1/5 Draft, GT: Marquis is higher than Count<BR>
CT, MT, TNE: Count is higher than Marquis<BR>
<BR>
The current trend clearly discounts the count. <groan><BR>
<BR>
Grumble, grumble, grumble "Whither consistency?"<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:40:39 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
Something like this was tested back in the early 1930's by the U.S..  For<BR>
more info on this, read Jerry Pournelle's book "A Step Farther Out".<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Richard Wilson" <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 11:47 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:42 PM 5/15/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >Was written:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by using<BR>
> >the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water and surface<BR>
> >water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely remember reading<BR>
> >something about it years ago but the physics seems on the face of it<BR>
rather<BR>
> >counter intuitive.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> OTEC - Ocean Thermal Energy Converter<BR>
><BR>
> I understand the University of Hawii ran one for quite a while. The<BR>
problem<BR>
> (IIRC) is that in order for them to be cost effective, it has to have a<BR>
> year round temperture differential of 40 degrees between your intake and<BR>
> out flow valve. Places like that are hard to find near land.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Richard Wilson<BR>
><BR>
> rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
><BR>
> ========================================================================<BR>
> Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
> strive to overcome.<BR>
> ========================================================================<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:47:26 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/16/00 12:25:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> T4, T4.1/5 Draft, GT: Marquis is higher than Count<BR>
>  CT, MT, TNE: Count is higher than Marquis<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The current trend clearly discounts the count. <groan><BR>
>  <BR>
>  Grumble, grumble, grumble "Whither consistency?"<BR>
<BR>
LKW is in the process of correcting the noble ranks in GT so that<BR>
they match the original (CT) system.  This will require some errata,<BR>
of course.  Rim of Fire should have the correct ranks, though.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:49:14 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> > Each subsector would be given a "height" of 8 parsecs; I'm not sure what<BR>
> > the average number of systems in a subsector would be now (G:T doesn't<BR>
> > provide much tips for 3-D mapping, unfortunately), but it must be higher<BR>
> > than in 2-D space.<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, probably not, traveller star densities are 5-10x too high (if one<BR>
> assumes that a hex is a cubic parsec).<BR>
<BR>
Are they? Using Chview to check stellar density around Sol, I find it<BR>
pretty appropriate.<BR>
 <BR>
> Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real world.<BR>
> There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to see big empty<BR>
> spaces.<BR>
<BR>
<dum-di-dum><BR>
And that is why I personally like an explanation like the one in<BR>
Freelance Traveler's Outline of Jump space physics.<BR>
</dum-di-dum> ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:57:03 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
<BR>
tim@premier.net schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> I was just looking through the MT encyclopedia time line and<BR>
> noticed that the long night began only 26 years after meeting the<BR>
> Hivers.  Hmmm Long Night as a Hiver Manipulation to prevent the<BR>
> spread of man<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You mean you didn't know?<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:20:04 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
At 09:53 AM 5/15/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Thomas Jeenicke writes:<BR>
> > Hi there!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'm considering to make Traveller's space really three-dimensional for my<BR>
> > next campaign.<BR>
> > Each subsector would be given a "height" of 8 parsecs; I'm not sure what<BR>
> > the average number of systems in a subsector would be now (G:T doesn't<BR>
> > provide much tips for 3-D mapping, unfortunately), but it must be higher<BR>
> > than in 2-D space.<BR>
>Actually, probably not, traveller star densities are 5-10x too high (if one<BR>
>assumes that a hex is a cubic parsec).<BR>
><BR>
>Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real world.<BR>
>There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to see big empty<BR>
>spaces.<BR>
Using the Gliese Data I found, there are roughly 264 systems (328 stars) in <BR>
a 10 parsec radius.  In a 10 parsec sphere, there are roughly 4189 cubic <BR>
parsecs, giving an average system density of .063 or roughly 1 system per <BR>
16 cubic parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:47:32 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
<BR>
That sounds about right.  What's the intent of the question.  There are<BR>
several sources about this conflict on the web.<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I haven't been following things out there in ther past few years -- what's<BR>
> been happening in the Spratley's lately? Last I heard the Chinese,<BR>
> Vietnamese, Phillipinos and Malaysians were trying to decide who owns the oil<BR>
> that may or may not be there in exploitable quantities.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:47:42 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
<BR>
That sounds about right.  What's the intent of the question.  There are<BR>
several sources about this conflict on the web.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I haven't been following things out there in ther past few years -- what's<BR>
> been happening in the Spratley's lately? Last I heard the Chinese,<BR>
> Vietnamese, Phillipinos and Malaysians were trying to decide who owns the oil<BR>
> that may or may not be there in exploitable quantities.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:22:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
The Other Rob wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'd be more worried about the Girl Guides...little girls can be _mean_<BR>
<BR>
See Bruce Sterling's "Distraction" for example. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:31:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>T4, T4.1/5 Draft, GT: Marquis is higher than Count<BR>
>CT, MT, TNE: Count is higher than Marquis<BR>
><BR>
>The current trend clearly discounts the count. <groan><BR>
><BR>
>Grumble, grumble, grumble "Whither consistency?"<BR>
<BR>
With respect to this issue, consistency is down for the count.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:31:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm<BR>
> Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> > Geez, same thing as in Aliens.  One Squad of Marines vs. A <BR>
> > whole planet of xenomorphs & the Marines win.  Just shows <BR>
> > you how tough Marines are.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, but the Aliens were certainly not defeatable by hand and knife  :-)<BR>
<BR>
That's only because Arnie didn't fight them !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:01:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
><BR>
>The mission was a success. Read the Ranger Creed to see what a real world<BR>
>unit feels about the same sort of situation.<BR>
><BR>
>http://www-benning.army.mil/RTB/RANGER/CREED.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed.  Success = Victory.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:00:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Dixon <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I do, they did something that few people can say that have.<BR>
<BR>
>IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
>of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The actor who played Hicks did not want to be in the next movie due to<BR>
the fact he was shooting another movie at the same time.  And, it did piss<BR>
me off.<BR>
<BR>
>They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
>like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    When you think about it, they also screwed over the plans of a greedy<BR>
megacorp, saved humanity from them, & gained a place in CMC history.  Not<BR>
really a Pyrric Victory.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:06:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They<BR>
>>collected the ammo so no one would set off the reactor then they entered<BR>
an<BR>
>>alien controlled area with no escape/retreat option and no way to fight it<BR>
>>out.<BR>
><BR>
>All they knew was that the colonists were down there.  Nobody believed<BR>
>Ripley's story about the Aliens, and she had never seen a full colony.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed, a Marines first duty is to protect civilians.  Even if he dies<BR>
in the attempt, he must make the attempt to protect civilians.<BR>
<BR>
>>  Didn't these guys know anything about sending in a 2 man recon before<BR>
>>committing the whole unit.  A couple guys escaping doesn't show me they<BR>
>>were that smart just damn lucky.<BR>
><BR>
>The entire unit was a recon.  With the link to the command vehicle, and the<BR>
>poor lines of sight, Apone decided to keep his troops close together.<BR>
>That, and we don't know that one or two of the fishbait Marines weren't<BR>
>walking a point.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    As well as the fact that they were in a "house to house" environment.<BR>
You have to split up your men enough that they can be safe, but you also<BR>
have to keep enough men together to be able to fight.<BR>
<BR>
>>  They did make a good stand in the medical<BR>
>>unit but by then they were so out numbered they really didn't stand a<BR>
>>chance.  Now if they had made the stand minus the 2 recon guys who would<BR>
>>get zapped but get the warning out then they could maybe had eventually<BR>
>>been able to sweep the aliens out since the aliens were concentrated in<BR>
one<BR>
>>place.<BR>
><BR>
>:) Once awakened, the Aliens were all over that reactor. That and most of<BR>
>the ammo had already been collected, remember?  This was all a plot point,<BR>
>you had to scare the marines, get rid of most of their ammo, and kill the<BR>
>one competent leader (Apone).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Plus, Frost who had the ammo was killed by a flame thrower & the ammo<BR>
cooked off.  Plus, I would not want to mess with the cooling lines of a<BR>
fusion power plant.  Not a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
>>  Which brings me to the air cover....were was it.  As I remember<BR>
>>while the unit was getting zapped the damn drop ship was still no the<BR>
>>ground.  I would think that those guys would have been listening to the<BR>
>>battle chatter and know that the unit was in trouble and get<BR>
>>airborne.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd be willing to bet that radio signals would get blocked by a few<BR>
>thousand tons of steel and an operating giant fusion reactor.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed.  Remember this is about TL 9 to TL 11 Marines.  They do not have<BR>
neutrino communications, just radio.<BR>
<BR>
>>  Instead they remained on the ground until the retreating marines<BR>
>>called for an air evac.  By then an alien had gotten on board and the crew<BR>
>>got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, battle hardened<BR>
>>colonial Marine unit with experience on "Bug hunts" as they called them.<BR>
><BR>
>In the original script, it is made clear that the dropship had landed to<BR>
>examine some damage.  Why the scene was cut, I don't know, but it makes it<BR>
>clear that the drop ship was on the ground for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I always thought that it hitched a ride when the DS dropped off the APC.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2437<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2438<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Mercenaries<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
OTEC<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Ideas for BITS<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Buying countries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:11:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>But they *do* have adult leadership. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I resent that attack.  I am a Marine Officer & I am not an adult.  I am<BR>
a well trained lifetaker & heartbreaker, if the Marine wanted me to be an<BR>
adult, they would have given me training in that field.<BR>
<BR>
>The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched a<BR>
>light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    We all do that.<BR>
<BR>
>Normally, officers are the cool, collected leader types, while the gun and<BR>
>explosion mad are enlisted.. in the Rangers, *everybody* is in the latter<BR>
>category.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Same with Force Recon.  We have a slight, yet happy problem, with<BR>
wanting to blow things up & break things.  Funny that.  The Rangers & Force<BR>
Recon are two of the best of the best & are filled with the same type of<BR>
people?  Makes you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:17:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>Actually it was his 2nd *non*-simulated combat drop ...  however,<BR>
>if you're handing out court martials I would suggest  giving  one<BR>
>to whomever it was assigned a mission to such a green officer  as<BR>
>leader.  I've always felt that Lt Gorman was set-up by Burke  ...<BR>
>possibly Burke pulled some strings thinking Gorman would be  easy<BR>
>to manipulate (planning  ahead  to  recovering  an  alien).  This<BR>
>implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
>on the mission itself.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Could it also be the fault of the politicians?  Remember the Marines do<BR>
not create their own missions in peacetime, politicians do.<BR>
<BR>
    Burke:  Mr. Politician, I need you to do me a favor.<BR>
    Politician:  One hand washes the other, you know.<BR>
    Burke:  Of course.<BR>
    Politician:  Well, what do you need me to do for you?<BR>
    Burke:  I need a squad of Marines.<BR>
    Politician:  What for?<BR>
    Burke:  Nothing much, we have lost contact with one of our colonies.<BR>
    Politician:  And, this concerns me, how?<BR>
    Burke:  Well, if you give me a squad, you will get a nice campaign<BR>
controbution from us.<BR>
    Politician:  Works for me.<BR>
    Burke:  One thing, though.  Let me choose the officer, you can choose<BR>
the squad you want.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:13:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>I believe it was his second ('How many combat drops', 'Two, including this<BR>
>one').<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    First really real one, though he has had many simulated drops in the<BR>
past.<BR>
<BR>
>Basic law of combat.  Never commit your entire force to an action.  Always<BR>
>maintain a reserve.  And why not send the synthetic in first?  They can<BR>
>build an intelligent, life like android, but don't have a simple recon<BR>
>drone? Doesn't appear that military technology has advanced much in the<BR>
next<BR>
>few hundred years.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I would tend to agree with you, but Bishop was need to drive the APC.<BR>
What do you think humans are for?  Really wouldn't, if you think about it.<BR>
There are only so many ways to kill another human.<BR>
<BR>
>Still, some times everything just goes to hell.  The best you can do is to<BR>
>go down swinging, which they all did, even the green eltee<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, take an honor guard to hell with you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:08:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
<BR>
>Yes, but don't forget that the Lieutenant was very inexperienced. Wasn't it<BR>
>his first combat drop? Good thing he died, because there probably would<BR>
>have been a court martial when he got back.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, he forgot the one thing all Marine Officers are told.  "Lead from<BR>
the front, do not push from the rear."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:31:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>I stated that the aliens in "Pitch black" were not as physically godlike as<BR>
the<BR>
>ones in "Alien." As an example, I mentioned that one of the aliens in PB is<BR>
>defeated by a single human wielding no weapon but a knife. In Aliens, the<BR>
>beasts have bullets bouncing off their heads.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
stronger.<BR>
<BR>
>The problem is that in Bug Hunt movies, the nasties have a tendency of<BR>
getting<BR>
>into hand-to-hand combat range before you are ready   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct.<BR>
<BR>
>>     As for who is better, well, how about this...  Me with my M16A2/M203<BR>
vs<BR>
>> any Knife Fighter you want to name, 100 meters between us, & we can see<BR>
who<BR>
>> will win.<BR>
><BR>
>You with your ACR in the basement of a bunker, with a knife fighter laying<BR>
in<BR>
>ambush. Who will win?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Still me, I have been trained as a knife fighter.  Remember, in the<BR>
military, you are well trained for combat, because if you are not, you die.<BR>
In a one to one fight, Berry (who IIRC was a Ranger), anyone else who was in<BR>
a combat arm, or myself would win.  As for the first thing, I would not<BR>
enter the basement of the bunker without using by blooper to clear it.<BR>
<BR>
>It all depends on the situation...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:07:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
><BR>
>There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
>asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, if they did, the Soviets would laugh themselves silly as the Boy<BR>
Scouts attacked with inventive knots.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:18:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
<BR>
>My problem has always been with the idea of: arrive in orbit, with two<BR>
>dropships, put _everyone_ aboard on one dropship, and land them.  What's<BR>
>the other dropship for?  Why doesn't anyone stay on the jumpship/mothership<BR>
>(or whatever it was called)?????<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Plot line.  I would have sent a whole platoon or company myself.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:38:18 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
adsr wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> FYI, you're right!  Good stuff.  I found one copy left at a store about 1<BR>
> hour from here.<BR>
> Can't wait for next edition!<BR>
><BR>
> "Imperial Marines love to mud wrestle."<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Who doesn't?<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:00:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry<BR>
> > I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
> > the Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
> > physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than<BR>
my<BR>
> > share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then<BR>
some.<BR>
><BR>
> There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
> asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
<BR>
Of course they have !<BR>
<BR>
Didn't you see that movie where the kids saved America after the Soviet<BR>
invasion ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:26:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Vincent P. Runci<BR>
><BR>
> I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
> mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or<BR>
> "insurgencies".<BR>
> Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
> that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
> opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
> probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
> does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
> that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
> merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
><BR>
> VR<BR>
><BR>
> I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it realistic to<BR>
> assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
> stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
> are a mercenary?<BR>
><BR>
> If it was me doing the fighting, I'd be plenty P/O'd at the Hessian<BR>
> types who are killing off my comrades and I for money.  It might be hard<BR>
> to convince me not to keep after them.<BR>
<BR>
The resaon you should do so is because repatriation bonds are backed by<BR>
large megas like Hortalez et Cie, who are perfectly willing to hire another<BR>
mercenary army to come and take it out of your hide if you fail to follow<BR>
the rules of war. And that's if the Impies don't use it as an excuse to get<BR>
involved as well. Not that they care about the individual mercs, but your<BR>
action damages trade !<BR>
<BR>
Yes, some religious berko might believe he's gods gift and that he'll get<BR>
away with it, but he won't, and it's the sort of thing that merc groups make<BR>
sure _everyone_ who's employing them knows about. Even if Mr. Berko decides<BR>
to start killing the mercs, it's likely there will be others in his<BR>
organization who are _not_ berko, and will make the right choice between Mr.<BR>
Berko and the rest of their civilization.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect there will always be "incidents", and sometimes a governemnt will<BR>
be able to get away with just paying reparations and offering up the people<BR>
responsible, and there will be times when the government insists the mercs<BR>
were tried and sentenced to death "legally" because _they_ committed<BR>
atrocities. Makes for great games !<BR>
<BR>
The final point being, yes in the heat of war you could get away with it,<BR>
but it will be considered a war crime if it ever gets out.  Do you trust<BR>
everyone else in your unit to not tell ? Or are you going to have to kill<BR>
them as well...<BR>
<BR>
There's no real difference between mercs under repatriation, and civilised<BR>
rules of warfare for accepting surrender from the opposing side, except that<BR>
with the mercs your government  gets _paid_ for keeping thenm alive as well.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:37:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> Both.  IIRC, Technically, the conventions discussing<BR>
> the deep sea bed, i.e., beyond the continental shelf,<BR>
> require that all profits go to the UN.  So, no one has<BR>
> an incentive to do it.<BR>
<BR>
I can see this leading to the UN being disbanded in the not to distant<BR>
future.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> According to the Moon Treaty (1979), which might<BR>
> still be unratified in the US, "Neither the surface nor<BR>
> the subsurface of the moon shall become national<BR>
> property of any country" - quoting von Glahn.<BR>
> [Incidentally, since no country can claim it as their<BR>
> property, they can't convey title to any property,<BR>
> so all those "Buy land on the Moon" schemes are<BR>
> hooey.]<BR>
<BR>
That treaty only means that says no _signatory_ can claim title, it doesn't<BR>
prevent individuals from claiming or giving title, and it doesn't prevent a<BR>
non-signatory from doing so. It also doesn't prevent corporations from doing<BR>
so.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, the treaty only restricts UN countries that have ratified the<BR>
treaty.<BR>
<BR>
That's why these people are claiming their titles are as good as any.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, ignorinmg the UN is dangerous but it is done all the time, and<BR>
once there are people in in orbit with mass drivers, it's going to be the UN<BR>
that will find it dangerous to ignore those who claim to be free from it's<BR>
hegemony.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:48:23 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
<BR>
Loren puts out into the Ether:<BR>
>I haven't been following things out there in ther past few years -- what's<BR>
>been happening in the Spratley's lately? Last I heard the Chinese,<BR>
>Vietnamese, Phillipinos and Malaysians were trying to decide who owns the oil<BR>
>that may or may not be there in exploitable quantities.<BR>
<BR>
William Keith wrote a nice short story based on this mess in the book<BR>
"First to Fight"  It's a collection of Mil-fic shorts.  He uses his H. Jay <BR>
Riker pen name for this entry.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:54:38 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: OTEC<BR>
<BR>
The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps by <BR>
Marshall T. Savage<BR>
<BR>
A great book for gearheads.  It covers the use of OTEC for a floating city <BR>
power source.<BR>
The city would produce much more power than it needs. The excess is to be <BR>
used for an orbital launch system using a combination of mass drivers & lasers.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued<BR>
other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and<BR>
rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:13:10 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Katharine Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
> Basically, small Pacific Island nations have two relatively large regional<BR>
> powers (Australia and New Zealand) who are set to intervene to<BR>
> toss out the Men Who Would Be King.<BR>
><BR>
> In the understatement of the week, New Zealand doesn't have a lot of<BR>
> force-projection capability, but I wouldn't like to be on, say, Nuie with<BR>
> twenty mates with Kalashnikovs, and knowing that somewhere out<BR>
> there were 20<BR>
> NZ Special Air Services types. They might be using a cargo ship and then<BR>
> rubber dingys for the mission, but it still isnt something I'd<BR>
> like to deal<BR>
> with.<BR>
<BR>
That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that the last time some guy<BR>
and his mates took over a Pacific Island, neither the NZ or Australian<BR>
governments had the balls to do anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
(Frankie)<BR>
<BR>
If you're referring to Fiji then it was a simple case of couldn't do<BR>
anything about it (Oz at any rate). We didn't have the kit (no landing or<BR>
heavy transport ships up to the task). Which is why we bought two landing<BR>
ships off the US (which turned out to be rusty god dammit - 400 million<BR>
upgrade - budget was 100) to gain that capability in the future. And a nice<BR>
battleship grey Catamaran which can hold a Battalion.<BR>
<BR>
Anecdote time. My boss at work was a senior (GPCAPT) mil body in the Multi<BR>
Nation Sinai operation in the early-mid 80's. The overall commander, a<BR>
Norwegian, was a racist SOB (not because he was Norweigan). He looked down<BR>
on the Fijian contingent as some sort of beast men and made various<BR>
derogatory remarks constantly, often to the commanders face, believing the<BR>
fijian contingent head was incapable of 'getting the joke'. That commander,<BR>
who lead the multi op choir every Sunday, was LTCOL Rabuka (spelling ?) who<BR>
lead the coup a couple of years later.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry - 6 degrees of separation thing.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Former mil travellers who 'fought' with a local commander are<BR>
called in when said commander takes over a planet - and ask them to<BR>
intercede on their behalf.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:21:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
<BR>
> 5 will get you 10 that as soon as it is a viable enterprise,<BR>
> the UN will start dealing with it.  So, IMHO, we will<BR>
> eventually see a Convention on Non-Terrestrial Statehood.<BR>
<BR>
Which will almost certainly be ignored the first time a colony,  orbital, or<BR>
L5 wants to declare itself independant.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:38:43 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Ideas for BITS<BR>
<BR>
A Question of Products from BITS<BR>
<BR>
On 05/15/00 at 01:17 PM,  "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
said:<BR>
<BR>
>>> likely buy more of your other products before getting adventures, as I<BR>
tend<BR>
>>> to arbitrate matrix campaigns.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Can you expand on this? Matrix campaigns instantly made me think of a<BR>
>> certain film...<BR>
<BR>
>Heh, I mean I set up "the stage" and just turn PC's loose with minimal<BR>
>guidance. It means more set-up work for a campaign, and also tends to<BR>
>force the players to be the drive for the game.<BR>
<BR>
I think he means the way Traveller adventures were *originally*<BR>
written by somebody that has slipped my mind...FASA, maybe.  <g><BR>
<BR>
That's the sort of adventure product I'd like to see too.  Give<BR>
me detailed background on a system (or three), a ship, some<BR>
organizations and npcs and provide some adventure hooks and that's<BR>
it.  I'd like Ref only sections for NPC hidden agendas and<BR>
motivations, but I don't need the book to tell me what the PC's<BR>
should do or what the outcomes should be...they Ref and PC's will<BR>
determine that.  Instead of 101 Somethings in 40 pages, maybe cover<BR>
one system with several mini-adventures in the same 40 pages?<BR>
<BR>
Example:<BR>
  20 pages describing the planet Ruie, its culture, corporations,<BR>
     government, flora and fauna<BR>
  12 pages devoted to adventure nuggets and plot seeds<BR>
   8 pages devoted to Ref only material covering hidden agendas and<BR>
     plots<BR>
<BR>
How many of the "TML landgrabs" could be expanded to a 40 page<BR>
"Adventures on...." book?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
How about a subsector book? 128 pages - 3-4 pages a system. I'd like to see<BR>
that....<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:34:41 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> puts out in the Ether:<BR>
>Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> > Yes, but the Magic system in Shadowrun draws 'em like flies.<BR>
>Have we played the same edition of Shadowrun? When we played, the <BR>
>magicians had<BR>
>a tendency of seriously hurting themselves with their magic. Sure, they could<BR>
>usually cast one large spell, but trying to cast many spells quickly was a<BR>
>highway to disaster...<BR>
<BR>
If they were using Rev 1.0 Shadowrun, then they were not very good <BR>
munchkins, or even decent Min/Maxers.<BR>
Proper use of permanent spell locks, power focii and fetishes allowed for <BR>
some serious firepower.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Monday special, two valiums with a coffee chaser.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:51:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
><< Can they really do this, or will the people who move out there still be<BR>
>  subject to the laws of whatever country they came from?  Or whatever<BR>
>  country the people who build the platform are based from?<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
>I suppose it all depends on who decides to recognize them . . .<BR>
<BR>
The trick is not to make a country, but buy one.  That way it'll already be<BR>
recoginzed....<BR>
<BR>
For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants to<BR>
the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
<BR>
Is there anything illegal about this?<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
It doubt it could happen. Pacific countries, be they ever so humble, are<BR>
just that - countries. With a spirit of nationhood lacking in ones a lot<BR>
bigger than they are. Most have deep cultural roots and afinity for their<BR>
land. They ain't going to sell. No matter how big they are (though for<BR>
places like Nauru - with a pop of 10k - their income is literally shrinking<BR>
the country - its main industry being phosphate mining).<BR>
<BR>
However, it wouldn't stop someone doing  a coup and taking over by force.<BR>
Mad Mike Hoare in the 80's tried that in Seychelles (spelling?) with his<BR>
mercs disguised as a Rugby team. From memory they were sprung in the airport<BR>
by a perceptive security guard wondering why a rugby team felt it needed to<BR>
be armed with automatic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Some ramblings by M<BR>
<BR>
<Ah Bond, welcome back. Pop down and see Q - he's got a broad spectrum STD<BR>
vaccine to test on you...><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:40:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The smoke test for this will come in the near future when people start <BR>
> building space colonies... a couple of different views...<BR>
> Clarke County, Space.  by Allen Steele<BR>
> Second Star and A Handful of Stars by Dana Stabenow<BR>
><BR>
> Building your own acareage, whether on the ocean or at L5 qualifies<BR>
> (probably) as terra nullius... the tricky part is de jure/de facto<BR>
> recognition and repaying the start-up cost.<BR>
><BR>
> Defending your acreage can be tricky...a space/sea colony is a lot<BR>
> more fragile than a surface nation/state. Space colonies, being<BR>
> closed systems, are a lot more vunreable to non-conventional<BR>
> warfare... bio/chemo would kill/incapacitate to population leaving<BR>
> the infrastructure intact. You are also a sitting duck for people<BR>
> throwing rocks. OTOH you have the gravity drop on anyone on-planet.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, chem will be *really* hard to pull off on a space colony. The<BR>
air monitoring systems will detect the contamination (detectors and<BR>
sensors intended for fire, hull breach or industrial accident) and seal<BR>
off the section before it can spread. <BR>
<BR>
Bio is both easier and harder. "Easier" in that it may get past many<BR>
sensors that would catch other stuff, harder in that folks are going to<BR>
take illness a bit more seriously. Why? See below.<BR>
<BR>
Also, nobody in their right *mind* will try bio warfare on a space<BR>
installation they *want*. It's far too easy for the organism to mutate<BR>
under the high radiation levels and other "unique" conditions. Nobody<BR>
wants to eliminate the owners and then spend more money decontaminating<BR>
the place thatn it would have cost to build one...<BR>
<BR>
And as you note, the colonists will have the "gravity gauge" in their<BR>
favor. Which makes pissing them off a *really* bad idea. Making them<BR>
think they are all going to die is liable to get them to do something<BR>
that will have everyone on Earth looking for the fools that planted the<BR>
bio-weapon. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:01:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Tim wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
>>>>the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
>>>>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
>>>>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Doug wrote in response:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
>>>asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
>><BR>
>> That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy Scouts never <BR>
> have<BR>
>> been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base. By the time that kids hit<BR>
>> that age, they're too soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are <BR>
> certainly<BR>
>> mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty arts & crafts, and<BR>
>> brutal milk & cookies they're all about bustin' a few heads. Headquarters<BR>
>> just radios the commands to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do<BR>
>> some serious damage.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd be more worried about the Girl Guides...little girls can be _mean_<BR>
<BR>
I've run across a few stories set in post-apocalyptic futures that had<BR>
the Boy Scouts wind up providing the structure that held a few areas<BR>
together. One had a bandit band encountering some Scouts on patrol.<BR>
<BR>
I think it's a viable idea for some worlds during/after the Long Night.<BR>
The Boy (and Girl) Scouts encourage survival skills, and other skills<BR>
that are useful during disasters. This disaster just lasts a bit<BR>
longer... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:54:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Was "International Waters" Now Its a TLP for Me<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:06 PM 5/15/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>> One last question, does anyone remember a plan to generate power by<BR>
>>> using the temperature/density differential between deep ocean water<BR>
>>> and surface water by creating an artificial upwelling?  I vaguely<BR>
>>> remember reading something about it years ago but the physics seems<BR>
>>> on the face of it rather counter intuitive.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Probably because you've got cause and effect swapped. The power<BR>
>>generation results in warming the bottom waters and *that* creates the<BR>
>>upwelling.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, a simple thermocouple will generate electricity based on temperature <BR>
> difference (I don't know about density).  It's the same principle (I think) <BR>
> used in an RTG.<BR>
<BR>
It's just less efficient than a more normal heat engine (say a Stirling)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:49:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 15 May 00, at 16:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> And private citizens will have one *hell* of a time buying armed<BR>
>> vessels or aircraft, so protecting yourself isn't possible until<BR>
>> *after* you are recognized as a government. (Unless Russia needs cash bad<BR>
>> enough to sell you some obsolete fleet units, and even then it'll cost<BR>
>> like crazy!)<BR>
><BR>
> Not entirely true. Any reasonably sized company should be able to swing <BR>
> a few helicopters, and GPMGs are fairly easy to come by. This gives you <BR>
> an airforce of sorts, and the ability to shoot up small boats. In fact <BR>
> with a few zodaics and some LAWs added in you'd have a military <BR>
> comparable to that of a fair number of island nations. The problem is <BR>
> that if you do get into a shooting war with one the bag boys will step <BR>
> in and you're screwed.<BR>
<BR>
Right. I figure it'd take *at least* a couple of destroyers and a<BR>
squadron of Harriers, or "real fighters (MIGs, Mirages, the F-?? that<BR>
we export, but the Air Force never bought) to get into the league where<BR>
you are more trouble than you are worth for anything less than a "major<BR>
power". And *that* you don't buy easily. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you could swing the deal a couple of Alphas and a Typhoon<BR>
would make people sit up and take notice. Alas, the US would be *real*<BR>
tempted to find an excuse to squash you like a bug...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2438<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2439<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Giggling officers<BR>
Re:  3-D Mapping<BR>
Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
Re: Buying countries <BR>
Re:  3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Buying countries <BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
Marines V. Aliens<BR>
re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:26:13 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Hello Legate,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Plot line.  I would have sent a whole platoon or company myself.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed. I don't know that much about infantry tactics, as I was a<BR>
tank-gunner during my army-time, but I would've sent _lots_ of troops,<BR>
from all possible directions.<BR>
And the whole operation would've started with lots of non-human<BR>
(android/robotic probes, whatever) recon.<BR>
And there would've been probably the same amount of troops as backup.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:22:52 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Hello Legate,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
> force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
> rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
> stronger.<BR>
<BR>
But one should not forget, especially when dealing with<BR>
scifi-universes, that a man-sized insect would get several problems<BR>
under normal gravity.<BR>
Their exoskeleton is quite strong. As long as they are small.<BR>
Man-sized, their exoskeleton would become unstable due to its own<BR>
weight. It's like in Star Trek, when the Enterprise's hull integrity<BR>
field collapses.<BR>
And furthermore, these insects would require imensely strong muscles<BR>
to move their armor.<BR>
These muscles would have to be very dense in order to fit under the<BR>
exoskeleton.<BR>
All in all, such a creature would be very heavy, loud and, probably,<BR>
slow.<BR>
Under 1G, that is.<BR>
Under lower gravities...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:37:28 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]<BR>
> Do we need to get to the point where we initiate<BR>
> the defenestration of the antidisestablishmentarianists?<BR>
> <BR>
> Bloo<BR>
> ex-social scientist, lawyer, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you *really* want throw people who oppose the abolition of<BR>
State Religion out of windows, be my guest... <g><BR>
<BR>
BTW, defenestration is one of my all-time favourite words. I just love<BR>
the idea of having a word specifically for the act of throwing someone<BR>
out of a window.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:59:15 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> puts onto the Ether:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> >>But they *do* have adult leadership. :-)<BR>
>     I resent that attack.  I am a Marine Officer & I am not an adult.  I am<BR>
>a well trained lifetaker & heartbreaker, if the Marine wanted me to be an<BR>
>adult, they would have given me training in that field.<BR>
> >The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched a<BR>
> >light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
>     We all do that.<BR>
> >Normally, officers are the cool, collected leader types, while the gun and<BR>
> >explosion mad are enlisted.. in the Rangers, *everybody* is in the latter<BR>
> >category.<BR>
<BR>
     Back when my dad was a Combat Engineer, he used to trade explosive <BR>
techniques with the Rangers.<BR>
Kinda like swapping cookie receipes... :-)<BR>
    For example, you don't want to blow a bridge into tiny pieces.  You <BR>
want to blow the connections to the shore, *warp* the structure  and drop <BR>
it into place.<BR>
<BR>
>     Same with Force Recon.  We have a slight, yet happy problem, with<BR>
>wanting to blow things up & break things.  Funny that.  The Rangers & Force<BR>
>Recon are two of the best of the best & are filled with the same type of<BR>
>people?  Makes you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Did you read what I read?  Write it right here in red.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 03:30:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Using the Gliese Data I found, there are roughly 264 systems (328 stars) in <BR>
> a 10 parsec radius.  In a 10 parsec sphere, there are roughly 4189 cubic <BR>
> parsecs, giving an average system density of .063 or roughly 1 system per <BR>
> 16 cubic parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
If there is on average 1 system per 16 cubic parsecs and<BR>
a typical Traveller hex has a 50% chance of having a<BR>
star then perhaps a hex has a volume about 8 cubic parsecs. <BR>
<BR>
Given that the standard hex is 1 parsec high we see [1] that<BR>
it has an area of 1.125 square parsec. Thus for each parsec <BR>
to have a volume of 8 parsecs it would need to be a hexagonal<BR>
cylinder of height 7.111 parsecs. We also see that the absolute<BR>
maximum range of a jump 1 drive is in fact 1.125 parsecs, not <BR>
1 parsec.<BR>
<BR>
If each hex on Imperial maps was of height 7.111 parsec than<BR>
each 3-D layer of hexes would be (7.1111/1.125) jump 6.32<BR>
(which rounds up to jump 7) across.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore given canonical Traveller canon typical star density<BR>
of 0.5 star per hex and (assuming Jimmy's Gliese data are correct)<BR>
than it requires Jump 7 to get from one 3-D layer of hexes to<BR>
the next layer (Arbitrarily assuming that all stars are at the<BR>
average height of their layer, which is of course untrue.<BR>
Given that there are no jump 7 drives than stars in other layers <BR>
are inaccessible without specially designed ships, misjumps, deep <BR>
space fuel caches, or the like.<BR>
<BR>
Thus the 3-D nature of the galaxy can be ignored by all those of <BR>
who want to stick to 2-D jump space maps without significantly<BR>
altering canon. It also allows those of you who want 3-D jump<BR>
space to explain why other vertical layers rarely interact with<BR>
the single 2-d layer presented<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
		 _______<BR>
[1]	     /       \<BR>
	    /         \<BR>
        /     .     \<BR>
        \    /|     /<BR>
         \ c/ | b  /<BR>
          \/__|___/<BR>
            a<BR>
<BR>
The hex can be considered as 12 right triangles, one of<BR>
which, triangle abc, is illustrated above (the halves of the <BR>
6 equilateral triangles formed by each hex face) of height 0.5 <BR>
parsec. Using the Pythagorean theorem (a^2 + b^2 = c^2) we <BR>
determine that each triangles dimensions are a = 0.375 parsec, <BR>
b = 0.5 parsec, and c = 0.625 parsec. Hence the standard hexes <BR>
area is 12 * (0.5 * 0.375 * 0.5) or 1.125 square parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
Notice that this also establishes that the diagonal distance<BR>
across the hex (from one o' clock to seven o' clock) is<BR>
1.125 parsec. Given that Jump 1 starships can canonically jump 1 <BR>
hex diagonally we see that the actual maximum range of the drive<BR>
must be 1.125 parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
(The alternate explanation would be that hexes are 1 parsec across<BR>
diagonally, not straight across) and are hence only 0.8889<BR>
parsecs high vertically and have an area of 0.8889 parsec. If so<BR>
each 3_D hex would be 9 parsecs high and require Jump-8 to travel<BR>
between vertical layers.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 03:39:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > Vincent P. Runci<BR>
> > is it realistic to<BR>
> > assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
> > stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
> > are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The resaon you should do so is because repatriation bonds are backed by<BR>
> large megas like Hortalez et Cie, who are perfectly willing to hire another<BR>
> mercenary army to come and take it out of your hide if you fail to follow<BR>
> the rules of war. And that's if the Impies don't use it as an excuse to get<BR>
> involved as well.<BR>
> Yes, some religious berko might believe he's gods gift and that he'll get<BR>
> away with it, but he won't, and it's the sort of thing that merc groups make<BR>
> sure _everyone_ who's employing them knows about. Even if Mr. Berko decides<BR>
> to start killing the mercs, it's likely there will be others in his<BR>
> organization who are _not_ berko, and will make the right choice between Mr.<BR>
> Berko and the rest of their civilization.<BR>
<BR>
This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
(Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 03:52:25 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries <BR>
<BR>
"Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> However, it wouldn't stop someone doing a coup and taking over by force.<BR>
> Mad Mike Hoare in the 80's tried that in Seychelles (spelling?) with his<BR>
> mercs disguised as a Rugby team. From memory they were sprung in the airport<BR>
> by a perceptive security guard wondering why a rugby team felt it needed to<BR>
> be armed with automatic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
A woman I used to work with, Gail, won an all expenses paid <BR>
trip for two to anywhere in the world in a radio station contest. <BR>
She and her husband chose to go to the Seychelles. They were <BR>
their when the coup attempt was made and spent the whole week <BR>
hiding out in their hotel room for safety. This was their <BR>
second visit to the Seychelles the first time they visited, in <BR>
1979, was the occasion of the _previous_ coup in the Seychelles.<BR>
On their first trip they never really got a chance to enjoy the<BR>
islands so they were determined to go back.<BR>
 <BR>
I think her husband must have had Unluck, he ended up being<BR>
murdered in a grocery store by an armed robber.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Sucker your PC's into entering contests and lotteries.<BR>
Let them win. Use the 'free trip' to get them into trouble.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav2: Luck is not always lucky.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:57:51 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re:  3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
             _______<BR>
> [1]	     /       \<BR>
>           /         \<BR>
>          /     .     \<BR>
>          \    /|     /<BR>
>           \ c/ | b  /<BR>
>            \/__|___/<BR>
>              a<BR>
 <BR>
> The hex can be considered as 12 right triangles, one of<BR>
> which, triangle abc, is illustrated above (the halves of the <BR>
> 6 equilateral triangles formed by each hex face) of height 0.5 <BR>
> parsec. Using the Pythagorean theorem (a^2 + b^2 = c^2) we <BR>
> determine that each triangles dimensions are a = 0.375 parsec, <BR>
> b = 0.5 parsec, and c = 0.625 parsec. Hence the standard hexes <BR>
> area is 12 * (0.5 * 0.375 * 0.5) or 1.125 square parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
If the hex is formed by six equilateral triangles, then a=c/2, which <BR>
is not true with your numbers. <BR>
<BR>
The side of an hexagon, 2a with your notation, is equal to<BR>
<BR>
2a= 2c sen(30) = 2b tan(30)<BR>
<BR>
because c is the radius of the circumscribed circumference and b the <BR>
radius of the inscribed circumference.<BR>
<BR>
Setting 2b=1 (i.e. an hex is one parsec across vertically) yields<BR>
<BR>
b=0.5, a=0.28867 (approx.), c=0.57735 (approx.)<BR>
which incidentally shows that the 6 triangles are equilateral.<BR>
<BR>
Setting 2c=1 (i.e. an hex is one parsec across diagonally) yields<BR>
<BR>
c=0.5, a=0.25, b=0.4330 (approx.)<BR>
<BR>
if I didn't make a mistake.<BR>
<BR>
I am afraid that your numbers for areas and distances are then <BR>
slightly off.<BR>
<BR>
Carlos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:48:24 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
At 12:40 AM -0800 5/16/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>And as you note, the colonists will have the "gravity gauge" in their<BR>
>favor. Which makes pissing them off a *really* bad idea. Making them<BR>
>think they are all going to die is liable to get them to do something<BR>
>that will have everyone on Earth looking for the fools that planted the<BR>
>bio-weapon.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of surface to orbit missiles would take care of an orbital<BR>
colony pretty easily.  If one threatened to bomb Earth with rocks<BR>
dropped from orbit, public opinion would probably approve of nuking<BR>
them into an orbiting gas cloud.  I certainly would vote for nuking<BR>
any space colony which threatened to drop rocks on my head.  A plan<BR>
to hit the moon with a nuclear missile was recently revealed.<BR>
Apparently this was possible in the sixties.  If you wanted to be<BR>
sneaky, you'd launch nuclear missiles as "satellites" and let them<BR>
approach silently before activating them.<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:50:11 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
At 12:22 PM +0200 5/16/00, M$T1C wrote:<BR>
>Hello Legate,<BR>
><BR>
>you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>      Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
>>  force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
>>  rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
>>  stronger.<BR>
><BR>
>But one should not forget, especially when dealing with<BR>
>scifi-universes, that a man-sized insect would get several problems<BR>
>under normal gravity.<BR>
>Their exoskeleton is quite strong. As long as they are small.<BR>
>Man-sized, their exoskeleton would become unstable due to its own<BR>
>weight. It's like in Star Trek, when the Enterprise's hull integrity<BR>
>field collapses.<BR>
>And furthermore, these insects would require imensely strong muscles<BR>
>to move their armor.<BR>
>These muscles would have to be very dense in order to fit under the<BR>
>exoskeleton.<BR>
>All in all, such a creature would be very heavy, loud and, probably,<BR>
>slow.<BR>
>Under 1G, that is.<BR>
>Under lower gravities...<BR>
<BR>
They would also need a closed circulatory system and all of the stuff<BR>
that entails.  Open circulatory systems wouldn't support that much<BR>
activity in a creature that large.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:27:25 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Sucker your PC's into entering contests and lotteries.<BR>
> Let them win. Use the 'free trip' to get them into trouble.<BR>
<BR>
What for? They (inclusing yours ;-p) get into trouble fairly well, <BR>
all by themselves... anyway, I'll note it for future use <g>. <BR>
<BR>
Carlos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:38:07 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Actually this example makes a LOT of sense and I'm thinking it's just one of<BR>
the ways these things happen.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:17 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Actually it was his 2nd *non*-simulated combat drop ...  however,<BR>
> >if you're handing out court martials I would suggest  giving  one<BR>
> >to whomever it was assigned a mission to such a green officer  as<BR>
> >leader.  I've always felt that Lt Gorman was set-up by Burke  ...<BR>
> >possibly Burke pulled some strings thinking Gorman would be  easy<BR>
> >to manipulate (planning  ahead  to  recovering  an  alien).  This<BR>
> >implies corruption of more senior officers who were  not  present<BR>
> >on the mission itself.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Could it also be the fault of the politicians?  Remember the Marines<BR>
do<BR>
> not create their own missions in peacetime, politicians do.<BR>
><BR>
>     Burke:  Mr. Politician, I need you to do me a favor.<BR>
>     Politician:  One hand washes the other, you know.<BR>
>     Burke:  Of course.<BR>
>     Politician:  Well, what do you need me to do for you?<BR>
>     Burke:  I need a squad of Marines.<BR>
>     Politician:  What for?<BR>
>     Burke:  Nothing much, we have lost contact with one of our colonies.<BR>
>     Politician:  And, this concerns me, how?<BR>
>     Burke:  Well, if you give me a squad, you will get a nice campaign<BR>
> controbution from us.<BR>
>     Politician:  Works for me.<BR>
>     Burke:  One thing, though.  Let me choose the officer, you can choose<BR>
> the squad you want.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:20:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
I had always assumed that the negative DM was due to their tendency to<BR>
distrust something"new" and to regard technology as something reserved for<BR>
the religious elite (a la Foundation).  Both of these tendencies would keep<BR>
new ideas out of general circulation.<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
> (Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
> Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
> of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
> bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
> of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
> up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:22:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
Hmm...<BR>
<BR>
A Pyrric Victory is a victory won at excessive cost so I'd still say it<BR>
was a Pyrric Victory.  All the Marines who went in are dead except for<BR>
one seriously WIA Cpl.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, they may have won the fight (courtesy of the atmosphere plant<BR>
going atomic as opposed to by fire and maneuver) but no one is left to<BR>
fight again another day.<BR>
<BR>
(Gotta get OT somehow.....)<BR>
<BR>
Ok I got it, when the decision is made to "Send in the Marines"  What<BR>
kind of force shows up?  A Corps, A Division, A Battalion?  I'm speaking<BR>
in general terms not all out war.  Picture a planetary conflict that the<BR>
Imperials have decided has gone too far and they are going to put a stop<BR>
to it.  Do they show up with overwhelming force or a token force and<BR>
dare anyone to mess with them?<BR>
<BR>
I model my Imp. Marines after the USMC & British Royal Marines (I like<BR>
the rank of Colour Sergeant for some reason).  Usually when the Marines<BR>
IMTU show up its time for the players to get the hell out of dodge.<BR>
<BR>
In the campaign I'm running now the Marines that are forward deployed<BR>
usually travel in a Corvette (3500 tons IIRC- stolen blatantly from<BR>
RAH's Starship Troopers) in reinforced company strength (150 Marines).<BR>
Their mission is to seize and defend advanced naval bases in support of<BR>
the TC Navy.  The TCMC provides a force in readiness to be used at the<BR>
discretion of the TC Leadership.  They also provide shipboard security<BR>
on capital ships, naval bases and embassies, much like the USMC does<BR>
today.<BR>
<BR>
The Corvette's assault force consists of A platoon of Jumpers followed<BR>
on by 2 - 95 ton assault shuttles that carry 3 APC's each (stolen<BR>
blatantly from Aliens)  The shuttles are escorted by 8 10 ton fighters<BR>
that stick around for Close Air Support and the troops are supported by<BR>
ortillery.<BR>
<BR>
They are in the midst of changing over to Grav-Carriers in lieu of<BR>
APC's, but the majority of the TCMC (it's a Terran Vs. Ziru Sirka<BR>
Campaign) are mechanized infantry equipped at TL 10 - 11.<BR>
<BR>
If you need larger forces you assemble more Corvettes.  I like my<BR>
Marines as a Force in Readiness which means they spend very little time<BR>
in Garrison.  If they are not forward deployed, they are usually in the<BR>
field somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:00:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Dixon <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I hardly think the squad in Aliens can say theirs was a victory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I do, they did something that few people can say that have.<BR>
<BR>
>IIRC all of the marines died save one (who was killed before the start<BR>
>of the 3rd movie which really pissed me off).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The actor who played Hicks did not want to be in the next movie due<BR>
to<BR>
the fact he was shooting another movie at the same time.  And, it did<BR>
piss<BR>
me off.<BR>
<BR>
>They did kill off the Alien colony (well, all but one) so it seems more<BR>
<BR>
>like a Pyrric (s.p.) victory.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    When you think about it, they also screwed over the plans of a<BR>
greedy<BR>
megacorp, saved humanity from them, & gained a place in CMC history.<BR>
Not<BR>
really a Pyrric Victory.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:23:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
>The problem is that if you do get into a shooting war <BR>
>with one the bag boys will step in and you're screwed.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like the trick is to be small enough and far<BR>
enough away that the only people who will notice you<BR>
(except for the occaisional "whacky news" report)<BR>
are small enough that you can keep them at bay with<BR>
a couple home built gunship helicopters and <BR>
machine-gun (or better) armed speedboats.  Look<BR>
unimportant, maybe some the president of some island<BR>
complains and no one pays attention.<BR>
<BR>
Then you grow very, very carefully.  You've got to <BR>
make sure that you're too small to notice until<BR>
you're too big to squash.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you can get one of the big boys to<BR>
decide they'd *like* to have you sitting independently<BR>
in the middle of that region - whether they'll admit<BR>
to it in public or not - and things can get more<BR>
possible (though more complicated).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Nation-building just across the Imperial <BR>
frontier, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:48:39 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> > Both.  IIRC, Technically, the conventions discussing<BR>
> > the deep sea bed, i.e., beyond the continental shelf,<BR>
> > require that all profits go to the UN.  So, no one has<BR>
> > an incentive to do it.<BR>
><BR>
> I can see this leading to the UN being disbanded in the not to distant<BR>
> future.<BR>
> <grin><BR>
<BR>
I'll cover that bet.<BR>
<BR>
> > According to the Moon Treaty (1979), which might<BR>
> > still be unratified in the US, "Neither the surface nor<BR>
> > the subsurface of the moon shall become national<BR>
> > property of any country" - quoting von Glahn.<BR>
> > [Incidentally, since no country can claim it as their<BR>
> > property, they can't convey title to any property,<BR>
> > so all those "Buy land on the Moon" schemes are<BR>
> > hooey.]<BR>
><BR>
> That treaty only means that says no _signatory_ can claim title, it doesn't<BR>
> prevent individuals from claiming or giving title, and it doesn't prevent a<BR>
> non-signatory from doing so.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, one more time.  It is a hard point to get across.<BR>
<BR>
International treaties you do not sign or do not ratify can<BR>
still bite you in the ass.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't by the exact terms, but it *can* be applied to anyone<BR>
and everyone.  If you're a signatory, and ratify a treaty, you are<BR>
bound because of your voluntary acceptance of the treaty, the<BR>
signature and ratification being the proof of your acceptance.<BR>
<BR>
If you're a non-ratifier and/or a non-signatory, you can still end<BR>
up having the provisions of the treaty applied against you, not<BR>
because you signed the treaty (you didn't), but because the<BR>
treaty, outside of its status as a binding agreement between<BR>
signatories, _may_ be considered evidence of General International<BR>
Law or Customary International Law (those are terms of art).<BR>
If a court finds the key provisions of a treaty or convention are<BR>
GIL or CIL, then they can apply to everyone in the world.<BR>
Everyone.<BR>
<BR>
This is more likely if you sign and don't ratify and less likely<BR>
if you don't sign, thus don't ratify, and achieve what is called<BR>
"persistent objector" status, i.e., you've got to fight the key<BR>
elements everywhere they come up in organizations your<BR>
country is a part of, which may help to explain some 'odd'<BR>
votes in the UN.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> It also doesn't prevent corporations from doing so.<BR>
<BR>
Corporations are citizens of states.  So, where the treaty<BR>
applies to a state, it applies to all the corporations of that<BR>
state.<BR>
<BR>
> Basically, the treaty only restricts UN countries that have ratified the<BR>
> treaty.<BR>
<BR>
And the citizens and corporations of those countries.<BR>
But, as I said above, that isn't always true.  The first question is<BR>
who is asking, i.e., which court?  The second question is how<BR>
do they claim jurisidiction?  Do they have a person in custody?<BR>
A spaceship? What?<BR>
<BR>
> That's why these people are claiming their titles are as good as any.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention the fact that they are con artists.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:50:27 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From memory they were sprung in the airport<BR>
> by a perceptive security guard wondering why a rugby team felt it needed to<BR>
> be armed with automatic weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Heehee.  Some past rugby teammates of mine own arsenals.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:52:49 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman schrieb:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
<BR>
> If there is on average 1 system per 16 cubic parsecs and<BR>
> a typical Traveller hex has a 50% chance of having a<BR>
> star then perhaps a hex has a volume about 8 cubic parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
Or perhaps we consider that average stellar density around Sol is lower<BR>
than <BR>
50% even in Traveller canon.<BR>
 <BR>
> Given that the standard hex is 1 parsec high we see [1] that<BR>
> it has an area of 1.125 square parsec. Thus for each parsec<BR>
> to have a volume of 8 parsecs it would need to be a hexagonal<BR>
> cylinder of height 7.111 parsecs. <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
 <BR>
> Thus the 3-D nature of the galaxy can be ignored by all those of<BR>
> who want to stick to 2-D jump space maps without significantly<BR>
> altering canon. It also allows those of you who want 3-D jump<BR>
> space to explain why other vertical layers rarely interact with<BR>
> the single 2-d layer presented<BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
You really believe this would help reducing the suspension of disbelief? <BR>
- - Well, I disaggree. Stars are not at all arranged in "layers", at least<BR>
not physically. It looks too artificial. YMMV. <BR>
<BR>
(And did I mention that I like most that Freelance Traveller Jump Space<BR>
Physics Explanation? I did? Good. :-)  This is just to say that if you<BR>
want to stick with the 2D maps, the necessary work for a more realistic<BR>
"starchart feel" has already been done. )<BR>
<BR>
And, by the way, for two rivaling interstellar empires, it would still<BR>
be cheaper to expand to another "layer" than reaching out too far from<BR>
the centre, even if they have to build special ships or special<BR>
infrastructure. Again, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gruesst mir Eure Oma,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2439<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2440<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller On-Line report<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
Re: Legal Advice<BR>
Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
Not Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Legal Advice<BR>
Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
Re: Ideas for BITS<BR>
RE: [OT] Netscape<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
Re: [OT] Browser standards<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:04:30 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line report<BR>
<BR>
Status Report for TOL (Traveller On-Line)<BR>
<BR>
(1) Send in the Cavalry<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt has provided useful feedback and code chunks to <BR>
put speculative trade in motion.  Expect to see spec trade<BR>
of some sort this weekend.<BR>
<BR>
(2) Starship re-organization<BR>
<BR>
The starship classes are undergoing change; as a result,<BR>
the database will remain unstable.  As the classes solidify<BR>
the database will stabilize and your data will be more or<BR>
less permanent.  The changes should be fairly transparent<BR>
to the user.<BR>
<BR>
These changes are related to two things:<BR>
<BR>
   (a) the login process is re-organizing (see item 3 below)<BR>
   (b) some form of ship combat is anticipated<BR>
       (suggestions welcome)<BR>
<BR>
(3) Login re-organization<BR>
<BR>
The login process is changing a bit.  Returning users will <BR>
see a simpler login screen, while new users will be immediately <BR>
shuttled to the "new user" screen.  I'll register internet <BR>
addresses against TOL's login logic;  however, I will still <BR>
allow people to have multiple characters.<BR>
<BR>
The re-organization is in anticipation of added functionality:<BR>
I hope to add starports as entities distinct from worlds,<BR>
where players trade goods, buy and sell starships, and <BR>
eventually interact with other players and NPCs.  When this<BR>
starts going into place, you won't have a starship when you<BR>
log in; instead you'll have collateral which you will be able<BR>
to apply towards a starship or other equipment... this is all<BR>
blue-sky stuff for now, so suggestions are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If you want to create a login (the database is currently<BR>
purged), you should still go to the original log-in page:<BR>
<BR>
   http://24.21.162.74:80/tol.html<BR>
<BR>
Once you create a login, then you can re-enter the system later<BR>
using the new login screen.  It's at:<BR>
<BR>
   http://24.21.162.74:80/login.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 9:48, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, one more time.  It is a hard point to get across.<BR>
<BR>
> International treaties you do not sign or do not ratify can<BR>
> still bite you in the ass.<BR>
<BR>
Thing is about International law is that when you strip away all the pretty <BR>
language and polite trappings, it boils down to one simple core concept. <BR>
Which (not to put too fine a point on it) is that you have the right to do the <BR>
things nobody can stop you from doing and no right to do things which <BR>
somebody can stop you from doing. In a real way, International Law is rule <BR>
by men not rule by law.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:53:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
>This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
>(Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
>Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
>of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
>bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
>of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
>up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
I always assumed that this was merely the bias of Post-Enlightenment thought<BR>
shining through, specifically based on a few relatively isolated instances,<BR>
such as the trial of Galileo Galilei, the Scopes "Monkey Trial", and those<BR>
religious sects which are either astonishingly conservative (such as the<BR>
Amish), or are outright against technology or science (such as the Christian<BR>
Scientists). This is precisely why I was always willing to ignore that<BR>
particular game mechanic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:21:39 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
Warning: Playing devil's advocate here out of sheer curiosity. <BR>
Questions might not be understood to imply opinions.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
> >(Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
> >Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
> >of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
> >bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
> >of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
> >up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
A religious dictatorship kills Mercs still of honouring repatriation <BR>
bonds. Fine. So...<BR>
<BR>
Why should this upset the megacorps? Say the planet pays an <BR>
indemnity. Or say they never inform anybody that those Mercs had <BR>
asked for a repatriation before being slaughtered. Even if it somehow<BR>
upsets a megacorp, why would a corp rennounce to a market? Even if <BR>
it happened, I rather suspect that being blocked by Hortalez would <BR>
grant you Tukera's support.<BR>
<BR>
Why should it upset the Imperium? The Imperial <BR>
militaries might think that a potential source of instability <BR>
has been removed this way (the Mercs themselves)?<BR>
<BR>
Why should this upset the *citizens* of other planets? I can <BR>
hardly envision Mercs being popular heroes, except maybe in a Vargr <BR>
culture. But in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
All this gives me an idea for a background TNS/Rumour thread to add <BR>
flavour to a campaign...<BR>
<BR>
WEEK 1:<BR>
TNS: "Planet X has slaughtered a whole Merc Company working for <BR>
Hortalez."<BR>
Rumour: Citizen 1 (Planet Y): "This is unacceptable, Planet X had n <BR>
oright at all..."<BR>
<BR>
WEEK 2:<BR>
TNS: Hortalez: "We'll retaliate."<BR>
Imperial Military (official): "A deplorable incident...."<BR>
Rumour: Citizen 2 (Planet Y): "What were those blood-thirsty Mercs <BR>
doing there anyway? They knew the risk!"<BR>
<BR>
WEEK 3:<BR>
<BR>
TNS: Tukera: "We grant the customers... er.. citizens of Planet X <BR>
uninterrupted supply."<BR>
Rumour: Citizen 3 /Planet Y): "When is the Imperium going to <BR>
do something to stop that intolerable injerence on the internal <BR>
matters of a sovereign world? We have to support Planet X! Come to <BR>
the demonstration!"<BR>
Rumour: Imperial Military (behind the scenes): "Fine, we got rid of <BR>
those pesky amateurs..."<BR>
<BR>
Carlos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:56:17 -0500<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The local AUSAs apparently have a different interpretation, going to great<BR>
> > lengths to advise LEOs in 'hypothetical' situations. At what point does the<BR>
> > individual need to be informed of his right to council, anyway?<BR>
><BR>
> No later than the time at which he is in custody.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall having seen that the miranda rights may have been done in by<BR>
some new law and that the supreme court was hearing arguments on that case this<BR>
year. Is that correct?<BR>
<BR>
OB Trav: Does the Imperium have some kind of miranda right? Probably not<BR>
on individual worlds but how about in space?<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:25:47 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
<BR>
In message <3920CE9F.B6E86061@portcaddo.com>, Steve Daniels<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes<BR>
>T4, T4.1/5 Draft, GT: Marquis is higher than Count<BR>
>CT, MT, TNE: Count is higher than Marquis<BR>
><BR>
>The current trend clearly discounts the count. <groan><BR>
><BR>
>Grumble, grumble, grumble "Whither consistency?"<BR>
<BR>
Did Mary ever visit Bill?<BR>
<BR>
Duke<BR>
Marquis<BR>
Earl (= Count)<BR>
Viscount<BR>
Baron<BR>
<BR>
is the British order of precedence.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:05:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Isolated islands in the Pacific<BR>
<BR>
At 11:29 PM 5/15/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>I haven't been following things out there in ther past few years -- what's <BR>
>been happening in the Spratley's lately? Last I heard the Chinese, <BR>
>Vietnamese, Phillipinos and Malaysians were trying to decide who owns the<BR>
oil <BR>
>that may or may not be there in exploitable quantities. <BR>
<BR>
From those fun guys at Christians In Action:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/pg.html<BR>
<BR>
Evidently, several claiments now have listening stations clinging to<BR>
"islands" that barely exist, except at low tide.  Wonder which troops get<BR>
chosen for *that* job? :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Non possum existimare plus quemquem facini"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:10:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 12:11 AM 5/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched a<BR>
>>light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
><BR>
>    We all do that.<BR>
<BR>
One of the Captains was the chaplain.<BR>
<BR>
>    Same with Force Recon.  We have a slight, yet happy problem, with<BR>
>wanting to blow things up & break things.  Funny that.  The Rangers & Force<BR>
>Recon are two of the best of the best & are filled with the same type of<BR>
>people?  Makes you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
Same mentality goes into the two units.. Good Special Warfare troops are<BR>
rarely good soldiers.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:13:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 08:00 PM 5/16/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Didn't you see that movie where the kids saved America after the Soviet<BR>
>invasion ?<BR>
<BR>
*splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.  That,<BR>
and watching "Terminator" and gleefully keeping a body count was a big part<BR>
of my Saturdays for a time at Ft. Benning...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:16:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 12:26 PM 5/16/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Agreed. I don't know that much about infantry tactics, as I was a<BR>
>tank-gunner during my army-time, but I would've sent _lots_ of troops,<BR>
>from all possible directions.<BR>
<BR>
That would ahve been nice, but would the political leadership allow it?<BR>
How many CMs are there? How many ships?  What sort of bug hunts have gone<BR>
on before?<BR>
<BR>
There were only a few hundred people in the colony to begin with, so<BR>
sending companies of troops in would be a waste of resources.  It seems<BR>
that a squad was deemed suffcient.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:19:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:54 AM 5/16/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heheheh... That was probably the most realistic thing in the movie that can<BR>
>be related to the real world... military history is littered with "drop ship<BR>
>hitting the APC when it crashed with a whole planet to hit"-type situations!<BR>
<BR>
The USS Forrestal fire.  Murphy was riding that ship *hard*<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:36:13 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Not Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
>Do we need to get to the point where we initiate<BR>
>the defenestration of the antidisestablishmentarianists?<BR>
<BR>
 Sure. I'd LOVE to get Windows off of my Intel box...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:41:58 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Thing is about International law is that when you strip away all the pretty<BR>
> language and polite trappings, it boils down to one simple core concept.<BR>
> Which (not to put too fine a point on it) is that you have the right to do the<BR>
> things nobody can stop you from doing and no right to do things which<BR>
> somebody can stop you from doing. In a real way, International Law is rule<BR>
> by men not rule by law.<BR>
<BR>
Heehee.  And not just international law.<BR>
That has always been the foundation of any authority.<BR>
'Civilized' and 'legal' governments just put layers of<BR>
abstraction upon that.  Perhaps, the more layers,<BR>
the more 'civilized' a regime appears.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:45:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Advice<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Terry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I seem to recall having seen that the miranda rights may have been done in by<BR>
> some new law and that the supreme court was hearing arguments on that case this<BR>
> year. Is that correct?<BR>
> <BR>
Congress reacted to the Miranda ruling by promptly passing a law<BR>
which was intended to invalidate the ruling. However, the Attorney<BR>
General thought that that particular Act of Congress would not pass<BR>
constitutional muster and ignored it. That pattern has persisted<BR>
down to this day. <BR>
<BR>
What happened now is that a "conservative" group felt that the time<BR>
was ripe to "fix" the matter and raised the issue before a friendly<BR>
US Appeals circuit which made the expected ruling bringing the case<BR>
to the Supreme Court.<BR>
<BR>
That's where we are today...oral arguments have occurred...<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:57:23 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> tim@premier.net schrieb:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I was just looking through the MT encyclopedia time line and<BR>
> > noticed that the long night began only 26 years after meeting the<BR>
> > Hivers.  Hmmm Long Night as a Hiver Manipulation to prevent the<BR>
> > spread of man<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> You mean you didn't know?<BR>
> <BR>
> :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> CU,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Hivers have kept me away from this bit of info  : )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> Ingo<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:59:50 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Ideas for BITS<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 07:38 AM,  "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>How many of the "TML landgrabs" could be expanded to a 40 page<BR>
>"Adventures on...." book?<BR>
<BR>
>Eris<BR>
<BR>
>How about a subsector book? 128 pages - 3-4 pages a system. I'd like to<BR>
>see that....<BR>
<BR>
I was angling for twenty or thirty books describing a subsector. <g><BR>
<BR>
Actually, I'd like something like a beefed up "Pilot's Guide to...". Gamelords did a good one in 48 pages of small book format. If you did "Guide" to some undetailed subsector, you could follow it up with several more books providing details and adventures set there. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:07:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
If I can point out, the latest Netscape (version 6, Preview Release) -<BR>
and I quote from the W3C - "offers far better support for Internet<BR>
standards than any other browser". It is also much smaller than IE5,<BR>
IE4, older versions of Netscape and many others (but not Opera 3.2).<BR>
It is strongly recommended for all platforms.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 19:54<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: [OT] Netscape<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> "Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Why  do people like Netscape?<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> IE 5 is _currently_ a much better browser for most<BR>
> usage, especially since it doesn't reload a page when<BR>
> you resize the window.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:33:16 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
I'm actually going to answer the comments raised, but I'm sticking all<BR>
the messages in here to cut down the bandwidth I use and the space it<BR>
takes up. Makes easier reading as well, since the reply to everything<BR>
follows the message I'm replying to.<BR>
<BR>
My original message was:-<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:47 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >As a general rule, you should load Netscape 6 Preview Release<BR>
> > on your system (whatever it is) and use that browser to check<BR>
> >*anything* you have trouble with. Even the W3C accept that this<BR>
> > is - and I quote - "streets ahead of other browsers and especially<BR>
> > the older versions of Netscape and IE5. No other browser supports<BR>
> > Internet standards so well."<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In other words, if it needs a browser, it *should* work on Netscape<BR>
> >6 - if it doesn't, then it is not written to standards and can't be<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 16:15<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
><BR>
> You are talking about anything that works as a _Web browser_.<BR>
> Ever since 4.0, IE has significantly passed the point of being only<BR>
a<BR>
> Web browser.  It's now more like a complete framework for any<BR>
> app you want to write.  For the Unix types out here, think "Make".<BR>
It<BR>
> started out as a tool to make compiling/building/installing easier,<BR>
but<BR>
> it's flexible enough that these days some people use it to do all<BR>
sort of<BR>
> other tasks.<BR>
><BR>
No, definately not !! IE is a _browser_ and the applications it runs<BR>
by tying in with the operating system is exactly what Microsoft is in<BR>
court for (well, one of them anyway). It is intended and able to run<BR>
_browser_ apps rather than just _Web_ browser apps (and should do) but<BR>
it is totally unsuitable for any other type of app, not least because<BR>
Microsoft may very well be obliged to remove the support for them from<BR>
the browser. It has some features that other browsers only offer by<BR>
roundabout routes (like ActiveX support for example) but if you run a<BR>
_browser_ app, you should use _browser_ support, not proprietary<BR>
Microsoft features.<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Trevor,<BR>
> Peter<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 16:34<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
><BR>
> I have used IE3/4/5 on a Win95/98 machine, IE4 and Netscape 3  on<BR>
> a WinNT machine, and now Netscape 5 on a Linux  machine.  Why  do<BR>
> people like Netscape?  In my experience (and just  using  it  for<BR>
> basic browsing) its a pile of pants!  Since  I  am  migrating  to<BR>
> Linux I look forward to Netscape 6 and *hope* its atleast as good<BR>
> as IE5.  (I'd prefer a  Linux  version  of  IE5  but  that  seems<BR>
> unlikely.)<BR>
><BR>
Trevor, you surprise me. Not least because of your opinion of<BR>
Netscape, but also because there never _was_ a version 5 to run on<BR>
_any_ platform. I suspect you are referring to one of the version 4<BR>
releases which have their good points but are generally regarded as an<BR>
unmitigated disaster as far as standards go and seriously over-bloated<BR>
as software. As it stands, you are unlikely ever to see a Linux<BR>
version of IE but can get the standard version of Netscape 6 Preview<BR>
Release now. And why do I like it? Well, because it is _the_ browser<BR>
to support Internet standards.<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: 15 May 2000 19:49<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
><BR>
> Except that Netscape 6 is a resource HOG!  At least,<BR>
> currently.  Certainly, much of it will get optimized as<BR>
> the beta progresses, but right now, I think you need<BR>
> at least 64 mb ram to run it effectively.<BR>
><BR>
I know what you mean - but its not Netscape. Since its written in<BR>
Java, the support for it in your JVM is what determines how well it<BR>
manages resources. I've recompiled it with 'fastjavac' and got a good<BR>
JVM, so it runs happily on my Celeron system (admittedly with 64 Mb<BR>
RAM).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:14:18 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Canonical Noble Rank Disparities<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 05:25 PM,  Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Grumble, grumble, grumble "Whither consistency?"<BR>
<BR>
>Did Mary ever visit Bill?<BR>
<BR>
>Duke<BR>
>Marquis<BR>
>Earl (= Count)<BR>
>Viscount<BR>
>Baron<BR>
<BR>
>is the British order of precedence.<BR>
<BR>
For the 3I, how about "Er, and did Maari ever visit Biill's kitchen?"<BR>
<BR>
Emperor<BR>
Archduke<BR>
Duke<BR>
Marquis<BR>
Earl<BR>
Viscount<BR>
Baron<BR>
Knight<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:18:29 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 11:57 AM,  tim@premier.net said:<BR>
<BR>
>> > I was just looking through the MT encyclopedia time line and<BR>
>> > noticed that the long night began only 26 years after meeting the<BR>
>> > Hivers.  Hmmm Long Night as a Hiver Manipulation to prevent the<BR>
>> > spread of man<BR>
 <BR>
>> You mean you didn't know?<BR>
<BR>
>The Hivers have kept me away from this bit of info  : )<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it wasn't to prevent the spread of man, it was to give the<BR>
Hivers time to study humaniti.  They've been experiementing with<BR>
humaniti ever since.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    I wonder if this message will make it to the TML?  I guess it<BR>
    depends on what the hiver censors decide.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:23:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Browser standards<BR>
<BR>
Yep, and Beta is better than VHS. The reality of the situation is that IE<BR>
has a big and increasing share of the browser market, so if we want to sell<BR>
our products we need to work with it.<BR>
<BR>
One difference between IE and Netscape is in their use of cryptography. With<BR>
IE you can get access to your cryptographic keys for use in other<BR>
applications, while in Netscape you can't. This makes IE more useful, but<BR>
less secure, while Netscape is less useful but more secure.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:51:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris<BR>
> Seamans<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:54 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
> >(Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
> >Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
> >of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
> >bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
> >of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
> >up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
><BR>
> I always assumed that this was merely the bias of<BR>
> Post-Enlightenment thought<BR>
> shining through, specifically based on a few relatively isolated<BR>
> instances,<BR>
> such as the trial of Galileo Galilei, the Scopes "Monkey Trial", and those<BR>
> religious sects which are either astonishingly conservative (such as the<BR>
> Amish), or are outright against technology or science (such as<BR>
> the Christian<BR>
> Scientists). This is precisely why I was always willing to ignore that<BR>
> particular game mechanic.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are a simpler explaination.<BR>
<BR>
Item 1:<BR>
<BR>
A religious dictatorship world can be assumed to have a high level of<BR>
'piety' amoung the citizens if for no other reason than to say out of<BR>
trouble.  Religious observances take time.  Time that could otherwise be<BR>
used for technological advances, research and production excetera.<BR>
<BR>
A 40 hour work week becomes a 30 hour work week and a 10 hours worship week.<BR>
The boss can't complain without getting sentenced to (pardon, 'without him<BR>
having and intervention of') a year or so in a religious 'retreat'.<BR>
<BR>
Item 2:<BR>
<BR>
Some scientist discovers a technological advance that also disproves<BR>
something in holy rite.  Either the theory is suppressed (to protect holy<BR>
rite) and the technology used without the understanding for further advances<BR>
or the technology itself is surpressed.  Either way scientists then become<BR>
potential enemies of the world government and are watched/controled very<BR>
carefully.  Which will limit the scientist greatly and bring everything they<BR>
discover up for religious debate and approval.  Can you see a world where<BR>
all new scientific theories have to go though an approval process like that<BR>
done for drugs before it can be published except in stead of doctors the<BR>
approval board consists of schollar of the local holy rite with little if<BR>
any scientific knowledge?  Think about that world's customs office...scarry!<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2440<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2441</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2441<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re:  Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
re:  International Waters <BR>
Re: International Waters <BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
RE: [OT] Netscape<BR>
Re: Request for review<BR>
Buying a country was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: [OT] Netscape<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships/TL<BR>
Re: [OT] Netscape<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens <BR>
re:  Mercenaries<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:02:20 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Assuming CT + MT noble rank system (baron, marquis,count,<BR>
>duke):<BR>
> - Every Imperial world gets a Marquis?<BR>
> - There is a Count for every groups of worlds<BR>
>within a subsector?  (So, at least 2 counts to everyDuke?)<BR>
> - Every Subsector gets a Duke? (except maybe very<BR>
>low density subsectors, such as Corridor, Delphi,<BR>
>Trojan Reaches, Reft, etc., where one Duke mightgovern the<BR>
>whole area?)<BR>
<BR>
No, no, and no -- at least in my Traveller Universe.  The<BR>
ranks of Marquis, Count, and Duke arose during the Long<BR>
Night as Terran military governors, largely left to their<BR>
own devices, made their positions hereditary.  They were<BR>
borrowing from both Vilani and Terran feudal traditions.  <BR>
<BR>
Not every Ziru Sirkan world had a Terran military governor,<BR>
and not every Terran military governor kept his or her<BR>
post.  <BR>
<BR>
The Third Imperium expanded from the area around Sylea. <BR>
Among the carrots that it offered to members of the defunct<BR>
Rule of Man was validation of the status quo and a pledge<BR>
of non-interference in local affairs.  This included<BR>
validation of noble titles where nobles existed.  Some<BR>
areas of the Imperium started out with a greater density of<BR>
nobles (like the area around Sylea).  More nobles have been<BR>
created during the existence of the Imperium, but not so<BR>
many that every world is divided into baronies, which are<BR>
amalgamated into a marquisate, etc.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  International Waters <BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Can they really do this, or will the people who move out <BR>
>there still be subject to the laws of whatever country <BR>
>they came from?  Or whatever country the people who build <BR>
>the platform are based from?<BR>
<BR>
That's a fairly complex question.  Ordinarily, laws of a<BR>
country by their own terms only apply within the borders of<BR>
that country, so if you're outside a given country, you're<BR>
not subject to that country's laws.  There are some<BR>
exceptions like an Australian tax law recently posted to<BR>
the list, but there are of course serious enforcement<BR>
problems with extra-territorial application of laws.  <BR>
<BR>
All of the land surface of the world has been divided up<BR>
into countries since about 1700, so we don't think any more<BR>
about undeveloped land available for the taking.  The<BR>
seabed is subject to international treaties, as is space. <BR>
What if a volcano pushed a new island up in the middle of<BR>
the ocean, outside of anybody's territorial waters?  The<BR>
people who moved there could set up their own country. <BR>
Whether they could keep it is a military/political<BR>
question, not a legal one.  The project of building a new<BR>
country is essentially the same fact pattern.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:23:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
[deletions not indicated]<BR>
>Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
>> Any country or anyone with a ship and some guns could <BR>
>>come by and take over.<BR>
><BR>
>That already applies to a lot of small pacific island<BR>
>nations, so what's the difference?<BR>
<BR>
It looks like they're all relying on (1) not being good<BR>
takeover targets (too poor in resources, too remote, etc.)<BR>
and/or (2) pax Americana/pax UN to keep the peace.  Didn't<BR>
Mike Hoare try to take over the Seychelles with a bunch of<BR>
mercenaries just a few years ago?  He must have been<BR>
playing too much Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:24:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
<BR>
>It was an enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at<BR>
<BR>
>a drive-in.<BR>
<BR>
What about as a rental?  Will the cinematography suffer<BR>
much in the transition to small screen?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:41:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
>I think both Survival Margin and MT:Imperial Encyclopedia<BR>
>describe Margaret as head of Tukera, the megacorp.  For<BR>
all<BR>
>we know, Count Blaine Tukera is an incompetent dilettante,<BR>
>and though capable of being the 'head' of the family, not <BR>
>able to govern one of the largest megacorps in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
Count Blaine Tukera was known before marriage to Margaret<BR>
as Count Mortimer Blaine.  Mortimer Blaine, under the stage<BR>
name Pickles Thirty-Fourth, made a series of adult holovids<BR>
that were stunning successes throughout Galanglic-speaking<BR>
space.  He personally made a small fortune on them, most of<BR>
which he used to establish a foundation to teach young and<BR>
impoverished actors and help them "get a break" into show<BR>
business.  He used the rest to set up a production company<BR>
that made some blockbuster 'vids that showcased, naturally,<BR>
Mortimer Blaine, as well as a variety of other holovid<BR>
entertainments.  <BR>
<BR>
It was his work in the Blaine Foundation that really made<BR>
him famous and brought him to the attention of the Emperor,<BR>
who created him Count Mortimer Blaine, an honor noble. <BR>
Count Blaine then became rather a fixture on the noble<BR>
party circuit, where he cut a dashing figure.  He met<BR>
Margaret on Capital at an Imperial birthday celebration,<BR>
and they soon became inseparable.  <BR>
<BR>
Largely regarded as a trophy husband, Blaine took his<BR>
wife's name and obtained a new Imperial title as Count<BR>
Blaine Tukera.  <BR>
<BR>
One reason for the popularity of the Pickles Thirty-Fourth<BR>
'vids may be Blaine's response to an interview question<BR>
early in his career:  "Is the rumor true that you don't use<BR>
any double, any make-up, or any computer graphics in your<BR>
'vids?"  "Yes, it's true.  That's just me up there."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:02:30 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
> If I can point out, the latest Netscape (version 6, Preview Release) -<BR>
> and I quote from the W3C - "offers far better support for Internet<BR>
> standards than any other browser". It is also much smaller than IE5,<BR>
> IE4, older versions of Netscape and many others (but not Opera 3.2).<BR>
> It is strongly recommended for all platforms.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I have been looking into switching back to Net Scape so I have <BR>
download this preview to try it out.  It looks good but a little more <BR>
crowed then I like my Browsers to be.  I ll have to play around <BR>
some more with it and fix the problem.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:41:51 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for review<BR>
<BR>
At 23:09 -0400 15/5/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Ah! You mean it's another word for a middle-eastern artificial hill formed<BR>
>by the decaying remains of several superimposed mud-brick villages/towns<BR>
>over millennia of occupation. <g,d & r><BR>
<BR>
You can run, but you can't hide forever.<BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:40:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Buying a country was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2430<BR>
<BR>
At 23:09 -0400 15/5/00,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:<BR>
>The trick is not to make a country, but buy one.  That way it'll already be<BR>
>recoginzed....<BR>
><BR>
>For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
>has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
>each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
>yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants to<BR>
>the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
SPOILER<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Read any Iain Banks recently? I'd suggest 'The Business' as a non-SF <BR>
starter if you find the above intriguing.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
>From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net><BR>
<BR>
>got zapped.  Dumb...and this was supposed to be an elite, <BR>
>battle hardened  colonial Marine unit with experience on <BR>
>"Bug hunts" as they called them.<BR>
<BR>
No, I think that was the point (or a point) of the movie: <BR>
after too many bug hunts, the Marines' tactical skills had<BR>
atrophied.  "Are we going into actual combat against enemy<BR>
soldiers, or is this just another bug hunt?"  Bug hunts<BR>
don't make you battle hardened, because the bugs aren't<BR>
intelligent.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:16:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
All good points.<BR>
One other possibility to consider: Religious dictatorships don't retard<BR>
technological development... Religious dictatorships are just more likely<BR>
on low-tech worlds. In other words, technology effects the government type<BR>
as much as government type effects technology.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:22:41 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
If you play with netscape 6, go <BR>
to: http://www.mozillazine.org/chromezone/<BR>
<BR>
There you can download 'skins' for netscape 6 that don't make it look<BR>
quite so stupid or cluttered.<BR>
<BR>
tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > If I can point out, the latest Netscape (version 6, Preview Release) -<BR>
> > and I quote from the W3C - "offers far better support for Internet<BR>
> > standards than any other browser". It is also much smaller than IE5,<BR>
> > IE4, older versions of Netscape and many others (but not Opera 3.2).<BR>
> > It is strongly recommended for all platforms.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> I have been looking into switching back to Net Scape so I have<BR>
> download this preview to try it out.  It looks good but a little more<BR>
> crowed then I like my Browsers to be.  I ll have to play around<BR>
> some more with it and fix the problem.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:30:02 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships/TL<BR>
<BR>
Charles Prevatte writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Can you see a world where<BR>
?all new scientific theories have to go though an approval process like that<BR>
>done for drugs before it can be published except in stead of doctors the<BR>
>approval board consists of schollar of the local holy rite with little if<BR>
>any scientific knowledge?  Think about that world's customs office...scarry!<BR>
<BR>
	This is an interesting scenario, and may lead to adventure hooks.<BR>
	On the other hand, it is very scarey how close we are to running<BR>
	things in the Real World just like that in some places  :(<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:34:27 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Netscape<BR>
<BR>
At 12:22 PM 05/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>If you play with netscape 6, go<BR>
>to: http://www.mozillazine.org/chromezone/<BR>
><BR>
>There you can download 'skins' for netscape 6 that don't make it look<BR>
>quite so stupid or cluttered.\<BR>
<BR>
I've never been a champion of Microsoft products, but I have to say that <BR>
the interface for IE5 for the Mac is excellent.  It's customizable and lets <BR>
me put the items on the screen that I want.<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:41:24 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>Doug wrote in response:<BR>
>>There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts<BR>
>have ever been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
><BR>
>That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy<BR>
>Scouts never have been asked to attack a Soviet forward <BR>
>air base. By the time that kids hit that age, they're too <BR>
>soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are certainly<BR>
>mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty <BR>
>arts & crafts, and brutal milk & cookies they're all about<BR>
<BR>
>bustin' a few heads. Headquarters just radios the commands<BR>
<BR>
>to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do some <BR>
>serious damage.<BR>
<BR>
I'm so glad that I've stopped eating and drinking while<BR>
reading the TML.  <BR>
<BR>
The milk and cookies are like the triple-frosted chocolate<BR>
bombs in Calvin & Hobbes:  three bowls of this and I'll be<BR>
hyperactive and incoherent all day!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:56:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
>I like the idea but as far as implementation goes, is it <BR>
>realistic to assume that if you activate your reparation <BR>
>bond the other side will stop trying to kill you and allow<BR>
<BR>
>you passage off world just because you are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
There are some deterrents in place to encourage<BR>
belligerents to honor repatriation bonds, but they're not<BR>
perfect.  <BR>
<BR>
In the Traveller universe, unlike the present time,<BR>
mercenaries don't have any ideology.  They just fight for<BR>
the party that hired them.  They may fight on the other<BR>
side -- your side -- next time.  (There are no conflict of<BR>
interest rules regarding mercenaries, unlike lawyers.)  <BR>
<BR>
Once they give up, they won't come back until this conflict<BR>
is resolved, so they are as good as dead.  They are better,<BR>
actually, because, as I said, they may be on the your side<BR>
next time.  <BR>
<BR>
If you violate the repatriation bond, mercenaries are<BR>
unlikely to work for you in the future.  If you violate the<BR>
repatriation bond, the surviving mercenaries are likely to<BR>
exceed their scope of work and stop taking your solders'<BR>
surrenders, too.  <BR>
<BR>
None of this is perfect.  Every mercenary takes the risk of<BR>
being killed and even of being tried as a criminal in the<BR>
local courts.  It's just part of the job.  On the other<BR>
hand, how many other jobs can you find where blowing things<BR>
up is in the job description?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:56:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
Charles wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>There are a simpler explaination.<BR>
><BR>
>Item 1:<BR>
><BR>
>A religious dictatorship world can be assumed to have a high level of<BR>
>'piety' amoung the citizens if for no other reason than to say out of<BR>
>trouble.  Religious observances take time.  Time that could otherwise be<BR>
>used for technological advances, research and production excetera.<BR>
><BR>
>A 40 hour work week becomes a 30 hour work week and a 10 hours worship<BR>
week.<BR>
>The boss can't complain without getting sentenced to (pardon, 'without him<BR>
>having and intervention of') a year or so in a religious 'retreat'.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly, but not quite. In a very general sense, all religions can be<BR>
broken down into three broad components. The "mythos", which refers to the<BR>
stories and narrative structure of the religion, the "logos" which refers to<BR>
the intellectual underpinnings of a specific religion and the "cultus", or<BR>
the body of practices of a specific religion. The only reason I mention this<BR>
is that not all religions have a large showing in each category.<BR>
<BR>
This is why such an explanation doesn't sit well with me. The Lutheran<BR>
states of what is now known as Germany during the Reformation were renowned<BR>
across Europe for two things: their devout piety and their work ethic. I<BR>
don't think that this "fits" with the explanation given above.<BR>
<BR>
>Item 2:<BR>
><BR>
>Some scientist discovers a technological advance that also disproves<BR>
>something in holy rite.  Either the theory is suppressed (to protect holy<BR>
>rite) and the technology used without the understanding for further<BR>
advances<BR>
>or the technology itself is surpressed.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that something like this could happen. However, when you're<BR>
talking about the Imperium, you have to realize that many technologies and<BR>
scientific principles have already been "invented". While I don't want to<BR>
start the whole tech level debate again, but we're not talking about each<BR>
planet independent worlds inventing technology out of whole cloth.<BR>
<BR>
In my opinion a better, and more plausible, rationale along these lines can<BR>
be acquired by snatching ideas from the real world. The situation in the<BR>
Islamic Middle-East is a fine example.<BR>
<BR>
>Either way scientists then become<BR>
>potential enemies of the world government and are watched/controled very<BR>
>carefully.  Which will limit the scientist greatly and bring everything<BR>
they<BR>
>discover up for religious debate and approval.  Can you see a world where<BR>
>all new scientific theories have to go though an approval process like that<BR>
>done for drugs before it can be published except in stead of doctors the<BR>
>approval board consists of schollar of the local holy rite with little if<BR>
>any scientific knowledge?  Think about that world's customs<BR>
office...scarry!<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that we're talking about new scientific theories here though.<BR>
It would seem that the prevailing notion of how to interpret tech level has<BR>
more to do with what a planet can make, or at least what it uses. So the<BR>
issue becomes one of why technology doesn't see practical use on such<BR>
worlds, not why theories don't get passed.<BR>
<BR>
I think that this is always done, at least to some extent. It doesn't happen<BR>
so much in America, but every since (at least) the 18th century a defining<BR>
aspect of the character of urbanized America has been a complete<BR>
fascination, if not outright worship, of the new. In the U.S., television<BR>
and television stations spread like wildfire. In Britain and Sweden (and<BR>
probably many other European countries) the growth was much slower, and much<BR>
more controlled. Most societies do tend to impose controls on what new<BR>
technologies are introduced and how quickly they are allowed to spread.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:05:48 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Going after them is equivalent to shooting prisoners. Which means that<BR>
> when folks on *your* side get captured or surrender, *they* are likely<BR>
> to get shot too.<BR>
<BR>
But, ObTrav, this is exactly what the Vilani do. They don't take <BR>
prisoners. The First Imperium Vilani don't board ships or take prisoners -<BR>
they just kick ass and keep it up with their methodical efficiency until<BR>
their opponents break. Hell, they probably keep it up for a while after<BR>
that too.<BR>
<BR>
The Terrans probably gave the Vilani their first real taste of strategic<BR>
intelligence gathering via captured prisoners and equipment. The early<BR>
Vilani mindset was that they were superior (and they often were), so there<BR>
was nothing to be gained by examining the enemy or their equipment.<BR>
<BR>
It is hard to imagine, but really, the Vilani history of dealing with<BR>
foreign cultures was probably non-existent until they had already settled<BR>
several worlds beyond Vland. Terrans will probably never be able to figure<BR>
out other people born on the same planet.<BR>
<BR>
Captured Vilani *expect* to get shot. Hell, a POW camp might be the most<BR>
alien thing they've encountered.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:15:29 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>     Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
> force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
> rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
> stronger.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is what's called the square-cube law.<BR>
<BR>
Mass, which is proportional to volume, goes up on a cubic curve <BR>
as a organism gets bigger.<BR>
<BR>
Strength, however, is related to the cross-sectional area of<BR>
the limb, which only goes up on a square curve.<BR>
<BR>
Ergo, while there may be a great ratio of strength to mass at<BR>
the current size of insects, scale them up 10 or 100 times and<BR>
the ratio is suddenly very different. For example, if the current<BR>
"strength to mass" ratio is 1:1, at 100 times bigger, the ratio<BR>
is 1:100. Oops. You just collapsed under your own weight.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, while insects are tough "exoskeleton is at least <BR>
as strong as steel" is a bit of an overstatement - roaches may be<BR>
tough, but geez, they are crushable if you can get one to hold <BR>
still fast enough.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, try this test: get a mantis (maybe from a pet shop,<BR>
you figure it out) and a small piece of fairly thin steel pipe.<BR>
<BR>
Which one can you crush between your finger and thumb?<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:30:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
<BR>
1.Just for the record, I did not write the following. I was responding to<BR>
it:<BR>
<BR>
Vincent P. Runci<BR>
> > is it realistic to<BR>
> > assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
> > stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
> > are a mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
2.  I think the corporate connection in merc ticket repatriation bonds is<BR>
being over-emphasized.  Book 4 (Mercenary) states on page 17, "Occasionally,<BR>
the party with which a mercenary organization made its contract will cease<BR>
to exist.  To guard against such an eventuality, a repatriation bond is<BR>
generally posted in an escrow account in a neutral bank with sufficient<BR>
funds to provide low passage off-planet to the personnel of the contingent.<BR>
Upon the conditions of the repatriation clause becoming operant, mercenaries<BR>
become non-combative and are given free transit to the nearest spaceport.<BR>
repatriation clauses are almost universally respected."<BR>
     This has several implications to me.  First, it seems unlikely that<BR>
anyone would accept a ticket without such a clause.  Second, there are<BR>
several reasons violating this clause would be unwise for the victorious<BR>
group:  1.  It would give the mercenaries that they employ cause to doubt<BR>
their employers' sincerity. 2.  It would make it more difficult for them to<BR>
hire any mercenaries in the future.  3.  I personally believe that<BR>
mercenaries are sort of a brotherhood,  with the possibility of personnel on<BR>
opposite sides  having served together in previous ops.  This means that<BR>
there is a good chance of some sort of retaliatory action from friends of<BR>
the betrayed group.  4. Finally, since mercs are generally employed to<BR>
supplement an organization with little or no military training or tech, I am<BR>
sure they would be able to wreak some havoc on their employers at the first<BR>
sign of duplicity, maybe not get away clean but definitely cause some damage<BR>
( see the movie "The Wild Geese" for ideas in this vein, or read the book).<BR>
     I think it is important to remember that the introduction to Book 4<BR>
states that the majority of merc tickets take place at the frontier, in that<BR>
portion of space where communications are still infrequent and political<BR>
stability is not a given.  The introduction describes the frontier has<BR>
having planets whose low population, unstable political climate, and low<BR>
frequency of trained military veterans often makes hiring mercenaries a<BR>
necessity.  For this reason, the CT era is described as "the Golden Age of<BR>
the Mercenary".<BR>
     By the way, I liked Leonard Erickson's point about these bonds being an<BR>
inexpensive way to avoid POW camps, never thought of it quite that way.<BR>
<BR>
3.  Having said all that, I still feel the best bet is to have a back-up<BR>
exit plan.  This is sort of a moot point because any professional officer or<BR>
NCO would  have a contingency plan for something as important as getting out<BR>
of the battle area.  This is important because, no matter how universal<BR>
these repatriation bonds are accepted, somebody, somewhere is going to think<BR>
they are above this custom and attempt to violate them.  As something to<BR>
ponder, does anybody think those Kenyan peacekeepers in Sierra Leone<BR>
imagined, as they deployed, that they would eventually be held hostage by<BR>
one of the sides they were supposed to be separating (the rebels) and be<BR>
threatened with being skinned alive?  Crazy things happen, always have a<BR>
back-up plan.<BR>
<BR>
(By the way, I did not intend to disparage the Kenyans.  According to MSNBC,<BR>
they have been doing a valiant job holding the rebels off for several days<BR>
(weeks?) now especially considering that they are greatly outnumbered and<BR>
deployed with only 100 rounds each.<BR>
<BR>
VR<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:24:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Vincent P. Runci wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
> mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or "insurgencies".<BR>
> Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
> that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
> opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
> probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
> does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
> that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
> merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
<BR>
<delurk><BR>
This is very close to the story in David Drake's "The Forlorn Hope"<BR>
(the same or very similar universe as his Hammer's Slammers stories).<BR>
<BR>
The merc company works for the existing government of a small (Czech-<BR>
colonized) planet which is fighting a religious insurgency (civil war <BR>
I suppose really).  The government unit they're attached to is about to<BR>
be overrun and sells out the merc unit to save their hides as the zealots <BR>
really wanted to execute the offworlders* The merc unit escapes the <BR>
initial entrapment and has to fight it's way across the continent to <BR>
get to a safe government stronghold and offworld.<BR>
(That's effectively the blurb on the book, so no spoilers.)<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
* In the first chapter, the mercs end up shooting down a starship making <BR>
bombing runs with some kind of field artillery piece.  <BR>
This of course PO'd the zealots to no end.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:50:14 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 15 May 2000 01:16:26 -0400 (EDT), shimmer<BR>
<dragon@mhtc.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ok,  unfortunately I cannot run IE on my system because it crashes my computer<BR>
>fairly quickly and regularly.  So that makes the whole program pointless.  I<BR>
>find it ironic that IE will not run on Win95 v1.  It sucks.<BR>
<BR>
Uh?  Up until last night, I was running IE (IE4, specifically) on<BR>
Win95 original release.  Never had a problem.  Only reason I'm<BR>
not still doing it is because Compaq with their *(^%^&%<BR>
QuickRestore disks make it impossible to reinstall corrupted<BR>
Windows components without losing five-plus years of accumulated<BR>
data and installed programs, so I had to upgrade to Win98 (and<BR>
then I figured I'd go whole-hog, and I'm currently running<BR>
Win98SE on the box).<BR>
<BR>
I'd suggest looking at other possible causes for your crashes.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2441<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2442<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
[BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
RE: Cub Scouts v. Aliens <BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
FLGS Trav in stock<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Halifax Travellers?<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:51:04 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Wanted! Volunteer(s) to test the Excel 5 version of 'The Traveller <BR>
Trader Spreadsheet'. This spreadsheet calculates the expected profit <BR>
on all systems in jump range using the MegaTraveller trade rules. <BR>
This version has been saved back as Excel 5 from 97, and we need <BR>
someone to try it out and see if it works. If you have both Excel 97 <BR>
and Excel 5 to run a comparison it'd be excellent.<BR>
<BR>
There's no reward, but we'd appreciate it if someone could help so <BR>
this software can be used by more people.<BR>
<BR>
email me at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com if you can help.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:56:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Cub Scouts v. Aliens <BR>
<BR>
Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm so glad that I've stopped eating and drinking while<BR>
>reading the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Good thing. I always feel a strange mixture of pride and guilt when I'm<BR>
responsible for a keyboard kill. The pride I can handle... the guilt, on the<BR>
other hand, is a little rougher.<BR>
<BR>
>The milk and cookies are like the triple-frosted chocolate<BR>
>bombs in Calvin & Hobbes:  three bowls of this and I'll be<BR>
>hyperactive and incoherent all day!<BR>
<BR>
I was just going from my own experience. I was a Cub Scout in a low income,<BR>
blue collar neighborhood which is renowned for the complete inability of its<BR>
inhabitants to communicate without the aid of physical, aural or emotional<BR>
violence. We were Cub Scouts and we would beat each other up... errr... I<BR>
mean "rough house" after the meeting was over. That was pretty much the<BR>
whole of it. What was the way my neighborhood was.<BR>
<BR>
Remind me to tell you about the "bottle-rocket gun" one day. From what I've<BR>
been told by others, it's a thoroughly enjoyable story.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: It has been theorized that "childhood", at least as we understand<BR>
the concept, is a direct result of the invention of the printing press, and<BR>
the resulting widespread introduction of literacy. In keeping with this<BR>
notion, in primary oral societies, it's not uncommon for what we consider to<BR>
be young children to be involved in what we would consider adult pursuits,<BR>
including the waging of war. There has also been some discussion concerning<BR>
the possibility that the undermining of literacy by way of the various<BR>
electronic media which have appeared, specifically television, is bringing<BR>
about the end of this notion of childhood.<BR>
<BR>
While I don't want to get into the real world implications of this, I think<BR>
that the notion is fascinating for Traveller's Third Imperium setting. After<BR>
all, worlds with varying levels of technology sit side by side with each<BR>
other. It is possible that worlds with very low, or very high levels of<BR>
technology may put what we consider children into various roles which player<BR>
characters (or specifically *players*) might have some degree of difficulty<BR>
with, with humorous or unfortunate consequences.<BR>
<BR>
The waging of war is one such area. The concept of very young warriors or<BR>
soldiers is not entirely known. Historically, it was relatively common.<BR>
There have always been certain limits historically because extremely young<BR>
children can't be particularly effective in combat due to the fact that they<BR>
are small and weak. While I personally play the Traveller universe as having<BR>
an age limit for entry into the Imperial armed forces, this isn't<BR>
necessarily the case with mercenary units or the militaries of individual<BR>
worlds. Mercenary tickets may be complicated by such considerations. I'll<BR>
leave individual situations up to the imagination of the readers.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, incorporating this notion into the Traveller universe doesn't<BR>
have to be so grim. Much hilarity can result when the party has to do<BR>
business with, say, an 11 year old "adultchild" at the starport.<BR>
<BR>
Player: "Hey, kid! Go get your father so we can unload these Baraxin furs."<BR>
<BR>
Merchant: "My father is retired. I don't see why I'd need him to offer you<BR>
73 credits per kilogram."<BR>
<BR>
Player: "73 credits? Hahaha. That's cute. C'mon kid, go find someone I can<BR>
transact business with. I don't have time to play 'merchant and seller with<BR>
you'. I'm sure you'll be a pretty good buyer when you grow up."<BR>
<BR>
Merchant: "And perhaps you'll learn how to bargain when you 'grow up', sir.<BR>
On second thought, for Baraxin furs of such a low quality, I don't think<BR>
that I can offer more than 47 credits per kilogram."<BR>
<BR>
Player: "I'm serious. I don't have time to play around, kid. If you don't<BR>
find someone I can talk to I'll..."<BR>
<BR>
Merchant: "You'll do what, exactly? I own all three of the importing firms<BR>
here which would buy your furs. I promise you, none of them will offer more<BR>
than 31 credits per kilogram for such flawed furs. If you want to unload<BR>
those furs here, and not on Raia, which would be three jumps away in that<BR>
Beowulf of yours, you'll pay my price. I'm a busy man, and I don't have time<BR>
to play around with you either."<BR>
<BR>
(etc.)<BR>
<BR>
I leave other applications of this concept up to the devious minds of the<BR>
individual readers.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:24:41 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 9:57, Traveller-digest wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Tue, 16 May 2000 09:57:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From:           	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To:             	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject:        	Traveller-digest V1999 #2439<BR>
Send reply to:  	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
>  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > > According to the Moon Treaty (1979), which might<BR>
> > > still be unratified in the US, "Neither the surface nor<BR>
> > > the subsurface of the moon shall become national<BR>
> > > property of any country" - quoting von Glahn.<BR>
> > > [Incidentally, since no country can claim it as their<BR>
> > > property, they can't convey title to any property,<BR>
> > > so all those "Buy land on the Moon" schemes are<BR>
> > > hooey.]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > That treaty only means that says no _signatory_ can claim title, it<BR>
> > doesn't prevent individuals from claiming or giving title, and it<BR>
> > doesn't prevent a non-signatory from doing so.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok, one more time.  It is a hard point to get across.<BR>
> <BR>
> International treaties you do not sign or do not ratify can<BR>
> still bite you in the ass.<BR>
> <BR>
> It doesn't by the exact terms, but it *can* be applied to anyone<BR>
> and everyone.  If you're a signatory, and ratify a treaty, you are<BR>
> bound because of your voluntary acceptance of the treaty, the<BR>
> signature and ratification being the proof of your acceptance.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you're a non-ratifier and/or a non-signatory, you can still end up<BR>
> having the provisions of the treaty applied against you, not because<BR>
> you signed the treaty (you didn't), but because the treaty, outside of<BR>
> its status as a binding agreement between signatories, _may_ be<BR>
> considered evidence of General International Law or Customary<BR>
> International Law (those are terms of art). If a court finds the key<BR>
> provisions of a treaty or convention are GIL or CIL, then they can<BR>
> apply to everyone in the world. Everyone.<BR>
<BR>
Of course wrt the Moon Treaty, if your nation is the only one is a <BR>
position to establish and maintain a moon colony, the point is <BR>
pretty darn moot, and you can likely use it as you please.  If no <BR>
one else is in  a position to use it, and your nation has enough <BR>
military power to discourage attack, then all the protests will likely <BR>
never be backed up by anything more than talk.  <BR>
<BR>
The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the <BR>
people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All <BR>
they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only <BR>
group with easy access to the moon.  At that point (if the new <BR>
nation prospers) they could likely claim a portion of the moon and <BR>
not have to worry much.  Claiming most or all of the moon would be <BR>
a very different matter, but if you only wanted 10,000-100,000  <BR>
square kilometers of moon, and you get there first, I'm not sure <BR>
anyone else would seriously object.<BR>
<BR>
The difference between de facto and de jure becomes fairly <BR>
important in such cases.       <BR>
<BR>
- -John SNead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:28:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Peter" <p.scarrott@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: FLGS Trav in stock<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
As promised here is the result of my shopping expedition to Nottingham.<BR>
Sorry for the bandwidth but a lot of people mailed me with a request for a<BR>
list of stuff and this is easier than sending them individually and missing<BR>
someone.<BR>
<BR>
Store Details<BR>
Tel No : Nottingham (0115) 9509231<BR>
Address 15 Angel Row, Nottingham.<BR>
(just of the city centre square.  I don't believe this I didn't write down<BR>
the name of the shop and I can't remember it.  Oh well give them a ring I'm<BR>
sure THEY can remember the damn name.)<BR>
<BR>
Following is the full list of the Traveller stuff they have in at the<BR>
moment, list is accurate as at 3pm today.  they will supply by mail order,<BR>
phone them with your request and they will send it to you _post_free_.<BR>
Unfortunately they do not have a catalogue but will happily check for stuff<BR>
and run around checking their stock over the phone.  They accept Cheques,<BR>
visa and switch happily.  Unless otherwise mentioned all stock is second<BR>
hand and is used, however no stains, rips or water damage on anything I saw.<BR>
BTW this is what was left after I (or rather my flexible friend) pillaged<BR>
the store.<BR>
<BR>
           CT (all 5)<BR>
Fighting Ships, Kinuir, Bks 1-3, Bk 4, Bk 5, Bk 6, Dbl Adventure 6.<BR>
CT Reprint (New)<BR>
<BR>
           TNE (all 7 unless noted)<BR>
Striker 2, Vampire Fleets, Path of Tears, Personalities of the RC, RC<BR>
Equipment, Hivers and Ithlkur, WTH, Brilliant Lances (13), Plyrs forms<BR>
(3), GM Screen (3).<BR>
<BR>
           T4<BR>
NEW : (all about 14)<BR>
Missions of State, Milieu 0, M0 Campaign (Hardback), Psionics institute,<BR>
Long Way Home, Gateway, Emperors arsenal, 1st survey, Aliens, Starships,<BR>
2nd Hand (all about 7)<BR>
Aliens, Central Supply catalogue, Pocket Empires, 1st Survey, Emperors<BR>
Arsenal, Long Way Home.<BR>
<BR>
            GURPS All New at full price<BR>
Basic, Traveller, Far Trader, Star Mercs, Alien Races 1+2, First In,   Plus<BR>
a lot of non Traveller specific GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
Plus a huge collection of other systems, including an amazing amount of 1st<BR>
ed AD&D and many Dragon Magazines at 1.50 each.<BR>
<BR>
Peter (Who still can't believe that he threw away his receipt and can't<BR>
remember the name of the store)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
p.scarrott@btinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:	tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
     	And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:35:11 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real world.<BR>
> There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to see big empty<BR>
> spaces.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there are large rifts between the spiral arms of the galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
Also, at least for short jump ranges, rifts tend to appear more or less<BR>
everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:43:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm writes:<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> > Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real<BR>
> > world. There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to<BR>
> > see big empty spaces.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, there are large rifts between the spiral arms of the galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, no there aren't.  IIRC the arms are bright because they're active starforming regions, but there are older stars more or less throughout the entire disk.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, at least for short jump ranges, rifts tend to appear more or less<BR>
> everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
Well, true, though those 'rifts' are more statistical features than specific astronomical entities (if you randomly populate an area, you will get some random blank spots).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:52:50 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> If they were using Rev 1.0 Shadowrun, then they were not very good<BR>
> munchkins, or even decent Min/Maxers.<BR>
> Proper use of permanent spell locks, power focii and fetishes allowed for<BR>
> some serious firepower.<BR>
<BR>
I (who was the GM) mostly disallowed such things, which probably<BR>
explains why magicians had a bit of a hard time. Still, they could do<BR>
some pretty amazing thing.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:47:01 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 8:13, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:00 PM 5/16/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Didn't you see that movie where the kids saved America after the Soviet<BR>
> >invasion ?<BR>
> <BR>
> *splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.<BR>
<BR>
You mean it wasn't intended as such? Good heavens.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:47:01 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 8:16, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:26 PM 5/16/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Agreed. I don't know that much about infantry tactics, as I was a<BR>
> >tank-gunner during my army-time, but I would've sent _lots_ of troops,<BR>
> >from all possible directions.<BR>
> <BR>
> That would ahve been nice, but would the political leadership allow it?<BR>
> How many CMs are there? How many ships?  What sort of bug hunts have gone<BR>
> on before?<BR>
> <BR>
> There were only a few hundred people in the colony to begin with, so<BR>
> sending companies of troops in would be a waste of resources.  It seems<BR>
> that a squad was deemed suffcient. -- <BR>
<BR>
It struck me as a pretty big squad, though. Thinking about it, if it <BR>
was a squad it would explain Gorman stating at the rear - he wasn't the <BR>
squad's commander (that would be Apone), but the whole operation's <BR>
commander. I always viewed it as a short platoon, as there was an <BR>
officer (of sorts) in command.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:00:32 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
M$T1C replied to Legate:<BR>
> >     Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
> > force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
> > rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
> > stronger.<BR>
> <BR>
> But one should not forget, especially when dealing with<BR>
> scifi-universes, that a man-sized insect would get several problems<BR>
> under normal gravity.<BR>
<BR>
One of the bigger problems:<BR>
<BR>
Make a creature 2 times as big (lengthwise). Volume (and thus mass)<BR>
increase by a factor of 2*2*2 = 8. The area of all connection surfaces<BR>
(muscles connecting to bones for instance) increase by a factor of 2*2 =<BR>
4. The strain per surface would be twice as high...<BR>
<BR>
"Why is that alien over there falling apart?"<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:06:36 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Assuming CT + MT noble rank system (baron, marquis,count,<BR>
> >duke):<BR>
> > - Every Imperial world gets a Marquis?<BR>
> > - There is a Count for every groups of worlds<BR>
> >within a subsector?  (So, at least 2 counts to everyDuke?)<BR>
> > - Every Subsector gets a Duke? (except maybe very<BR>
> >low density subsectors, such as Corridor, Delphi,<BR>
> >Trojan Reaches, Reft, etc., where one Duke mightgovern the<BR>
> >whole area?)<BR>
><BR>
> No, no, and no -- at least in my Traveller Universe.<BR>
<BR>
DIE HERETIC!!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I'm only interested in canon, to the extent it exists.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The ranks of Marquis, Count, and Duke arose during the Long<BR>
<BR>
> Night as Terran military governors, largely left to their<BR>
> own devices, made their positions hereditary.  They were<BR>
> borrowing from both Vilani and Terran feudal traditions.<BR>
<BR>
We mustn't forget the Sylean "Grand Dukes".<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:12:17 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the<BR>
> people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All<BR>
> they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only<BR>
> group with easy access to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets billionaire's<BR>
terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and you're are enjoined from going<BR>
to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:18:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
> But, ObTrav, this is exactly what the Vilani do. They don't take<BR>
> prisoners. The First Imperium Vilani don't board ships or take prisoners -<BR>
> they just kick ass and keep it up with their methodical efficiency until<BR>
> their opponents break. Hell, they probably keep it up for a while after<BR>
> that too.<BR>
<BR>
The biggest problem with the 'take no prisoners' philosophy, is that the<BR>
enemy knows there will be no mercy and will frequently fight all the harder.<BR>
On the other hand, if enemy soldiers know that if they surrender, they will<BR>
be well treated, given food, etc.  surrender becomes a more attractive<BR>
option.  Particularly if the troops are not well led, have poor motivation,<BR>
are conscripts, or fighting for a cause they don't really believe in.<BR>
<BR>
- --Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:36:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> > The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the<BR>
> > people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All<BR>
> > they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only<BR>
> > group with easy access to the moon.<BR>
> <BR>
> When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets billionaire's<BR>
> terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and you're are enjoined from going<BR>
> to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
And then who gets to lob big rocks at whom?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:48:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Once they give up, they won't come back until this conflict<BR>
> is resolved, so they are as good as dead.  They are better,<BR>
> actually, because, as I said, they may be on the your side<BR>
> next time.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. So a mercenary surrendering is some sort of legal contract.<BR>
Maybe martial law applies to the soldier, but commercial law to the<BR>
mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:54:47 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
>Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
An elf with a bazooka?<BR>
<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:15:56 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Hivers at it Again?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/16/00 12:23:53 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Actually, it wasn't to prevent the spread of man, it was to give the<BR>
>  Hivers time to study humaniti.  They've been experiementing with<BR>
>  humaniti ever since.  <g><BR>
>  <BR>
>  Eris,<BR>
>      I wonder if this message will make it to the TML?  I guess it<BR>
>      depends on what the hiver censors decide.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
or maybe that's just what they want you to think.  You don't want to know <BR>
what they're REALLY up to......<BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:40:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>>The essential, basic nature of Rangers was revealed to me when I watched<BR>
a<BR>
>>>light colonel and two captains giggle madly while laying det cord.<BR>
>><BR>
>>    We all do that.<BR>
><BR>
>One of the Captains was the chaplain.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sounds like the Rabbi, & I do mean my Jewish chaplain not my patron, I<BR>
had on the USS America.  He was a former SEAL who like to play with det<BR>
cord, C-4, & other things that go boom in the night.<BR>
<BR>
>>    Same with Force Recon.  We have a slight, yet happy problem, with<BR>
>>wanting to blow things up & break things.  Funny that.  The Rangers &<BR>
Force<BR>
>>Recon are two of the best of the best & are filled with the same type of<BR>
>>people?  Makes you wonder.<BR>
><BR>
>Same mentality goes into the two units.. Good Special Warfare troops are<BR>
>rarely good soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, soldiers have to march forward in line, SpecWar troops have so<BR>
much more to do.  Sorta like the Riflemen vs. Line Infantry of the British<BR>
Army in the 1800s.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:41:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Didn't you see that movie where the kids saved America after the Soviet<BR>
>>invasion ?<BR>
><BR>
>*splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.  That,<BR>
>and watching "Terminator" and gleefully keeping a body count was a big part<BR>
>of my Saturdays for a time at Ft. Benning...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    What about Rambo?  I loved the way he would stand in the open & unload<BR>
on people with an M-60 in one hand.  Know that is comedy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:53:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: M$T1C <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
<BR>
>>     Plot line.  I would have sent a whole platoon or company myself.<BR>
><BR>
>Agreed. I don't know that much about infantry tactics, as I was a<BR>
>tank-gunner during my army-time, but I would've sent _lots_ of troops,<BR>
>from all possible directions.<BR>
>And the whole operation would've started with lots of non-human<BR>
>(android/robotic probes, whatever) recon.<BR>
>And there would've been probably the same amount of troops as backup.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, but the thing is that your will need at least one platoon, as<BR>
that would have enough people to do an investigation, but it would also be<BR>
enough that they could hold off for a while.  Of course all that we know is<BR>
that a colony is off the air, not that it has been attacked.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:55:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>     Back when my dad was a Combat Engineer, he used to trade explosive<BR>
>techniques with the Rangers.<BR>
<BR>
    They are always nice people, the Rangers, I mean.  They always keep<BR>
their home so neat & tidy.<BR>
<BR>
>Kinda like swapping cookie receipes... :-)<BR>
<BR>
    Of course it is.<BR>
<BR>
>    For example, you don't want to blow a bridge into tiny pieces.  You<BR>
>want to blow the connections to the shore, *warp* the structure  and drop<BR>
>it into place.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, do not waste good C-4 unless you have to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:24:02 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 15 May 2000 15:06:35 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Kristian Miller wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> My short on this is that it was the classic shipwreck in space; and a<BR>
>> good source for a (already done) Traveller adventure.  It was an<BR>
>> enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at a drive-in.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Kristian<BR>
><BR>
>Drive-in? they still exist? I think the number of drive-ins in Australia<BR>
>can be counted on one hand...<BR>
<BR>
Probably on the hand of a shop teacher at that.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"If a country is worth living in, it is worth fighting for."   -Manning Coles<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:38:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Halifax Travellers?<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  I just recently moved to Halifax (Nova Scotia, Canada, that is) <BR>
and was wondering if there are any other Traveller fans in this fine city. <BR>
If so, please get in touch with me via personal email.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Charles C. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:56:12 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Tim wrote:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>>>I understand your point, but some how I felt like I was 13 again and in<BR>
> >>>>the  Boyscouts again aftering reading this<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>>Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
> >>>>physically  strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
> >>>>share of the task  whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Doug wrote in response:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>>There are simalarities, but I don't think the Boy Scouts have ever been<BR>
> >>>asked to attack a Soviet forward air base.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> That's just what they want you to think. Actually, the Boy Scouts never<BR>
> > have<BR>
> >> been asked to attack a Soviet forward air base. By the time that kids hit<BR>
> >> that age, they're too soft. The Cub Scouts, on the other hand, are<BR>
> > certainly<BR>
> >> mean little bastards. After a few hours of bloodthirsty arts & crafts, and<BR>
> >> brutal milk & cookies they're all about bustin' a few heads. Headquarters<BR>
> >> just radios the commands to the "Den Mother" and the kids roll out and do<BR>
> >> some serious damage.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I'd be more worried about the Girl Guides...little girls can be _mean_<BR>
><BR>
> I've run across a few stories set in post-apocalyptic futures that had<BR>
> the Boy Scouts wind up providing the structure that held a few areas<BR>
> together. One had a bandit band encountering some Scouts on patrol.<BR>
><BR>
> I think it's a viable idea for some worlds during/after the Long Night.<BR>
> The Boy (and Girl) Scouts encourage survival skills, and other skills<BR>
> that are useful during disasters. This disaster just lasts a bit<BR>
> longer...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
If i remember correctly GURPS Autoduel has the CSA, the Commando Scouts of<BR>
America...Survival and Heavy Weapon skills...helping old ladies across the street<BR>
has never been more fun...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2442<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2443</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2443<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
Re: International Waters <BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:00:51 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > > Vincent P. Runci<BR>
> > > is it realistic to<BR>
> > > assume that if you activate your reparation bond the other side will<BR>
> > > stop trying to kill you and allow you passage off world just because you<BR>
> > > are a mercenary?<BR>
><BR>
> > The resaon you should do so is because repatriation bonds are backed by<BR>
> > large megas like Hortalez et Cie, who are perfectly willing to hire another<BR>
> > mercenary army to come and take it out of your hide if you fail to follow<BR>
> > the rules of war. And that's if the Impies don't use it as an excuse to get<BR>
> > involved as well.<BR>
> > Yes, some religious berko might believe he's gods gift and that he'll get<BR>
> > away with it, but he won't, and it's the sort of thing that merc groups make<BR>
> > sure _everyone_ who's employing them knows about. Even if Mr. Berko decides<BR>
> > to start killing the mercs, it's likely there will be others in his<BR>
> > organization who are _not_ berko, and will make the right choice between Mr.<BR>
> > Berko and the rest of their civilization.<BR>
><BR>
> This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
> (Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
> Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
> of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
> bonds). THis upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
> of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
> up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a What If: Warrior religon as dictatorship...respect for mercs...merc<BR>
exporters...now what?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:40:12 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of brut<BR>
> > force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least 20mm<BR>
> > rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or<BR>
> > stronger.<BR>
><BR>
> The problem is what's called the square-cube law.<BR>
><BR>
> Mass, which is proportional to volume, goes up on a cubic curve<BR>
> as a organism gets bigger.<BR>
><BR>
> Strength, however, is related to the cross-sectional area of<BR>
> the limb, which only goes up on a square curve.<BR>
><BR>
> Ergo, while there may be a great ratio of strength to mass at<BR>
> the current size of insects, scale them up 10 or 100 times and<BR>
> the ratio is suddenly very different. For example, if the current<BR>
> "strength to mass" ratio is 1:1, at 100 times bigger, the ratio<BR>
> is 1:100. Oops. You just collapsed under your own weight.<BR>
><BR>
> Besides, while insects are tough "exoskeleton is at least<BR>
> as strong as steel" is a bit of an overstatement - roaches may be<BR>
> tough, but geez, they are crushable if you can get one to hold<BR>
> still fast enough.<BR>
><BR>
> Alternatively, try this test: get a mantis (maybe from a pet shop,<BR>
> you figure it out) and a small piece of fairly thin steel pipe.<BR>
><BR>
> Which one can you crush between your finger and thumb?<BR>
> --<BR>
> Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee swarm...who<BR>
gets swatted?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:32:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
<< > *splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.<BR>
<BR>
You mean it wasn't intended as such? Good heavens. >><BR>
<BR>
    Some people think this is a drama.  Of course they are manipulated by<BR>
hivers....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:57:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 11:40, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
> acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee<BR>
> swarm...who gets swatted?<BR>
<BR>
That's what napalm and flamethrowers are for.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:59:39 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
I did look into other possible causes, and then i removed IE and never had<BR>
another problem.  Somebody recently suggested I use the service pack and try<BR>
again.  I will do that later this week.<BR>
<BR>
> I'd suggest looking at other possible causes for your crashes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:42:27 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >It was an enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at<BR>
> >a drive-in.<BR>
> <BR>
> What about as a rental?  Will the cinematography suffer<BR>
> much in the transition to small screen?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know but we could check.  Still, the drive-in gives you two<BR>
films for the $5.75 (hard to beat that price even for a rental), plus<BR>
you get to cook out, sit under the stars, and its no where nears as<BR>
crowded as the indoor theaters.  I've been tempted to invite our<BR>
Traveller group for a night of cheap sci-fi at the Capitol.  They<BR>
usually put a couple of sci-fi/fantasy movies together.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:45:53 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I regret that I won't be able to attend, as I'll be in<BR>
> Idaho (or more likely driving back through Nevada).  3, 10,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It's looking like June 17 might be the next.<BR>
<BR>
I forgot to mention that we'll do some prep for GameCon at the May 20<BR>
meet.  It looks like there's going to be a fair bit of Traveller games<BR>
this year.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
> --- Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com> wrote:<BR>
> > In case anyone missed the first post of this or is new to<BR>
> > the list.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Next Saturday:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The date for the next San Jose (near 101 & I-680)<BR>
> > Traveller Meet will be<BR>
> > May 20.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > We'll start at 11:00 and have the usual format.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Games:  Battle Rider<BR>
> > Evening Game: Traveller RPG, assorted board games<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Pass the news on to anyone who is interested.  For more<BR>
> > information<BR>
> > email me at:<BR>
> > travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:44:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters <BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>All of the land surface of the world has been divided up<BR>
>into countries since about 1700, so we don't think any more<BR>
>about undeveloped land available for the taking.  T<BR>
<BR>
For all practical purposes this is almost but not quite true.  Antarctica is<BR>
the exception.  By treaty? common agreement?  most if not all national<BR>
claims to the continent, some of which significantly overlap, are currently<BR>
in abeyance for the "common good of mankind".  No exploitation of natural<BR>
resources allowed.    Say didn't I hear about some Texas sized mega berg<BR>
that just calved off of the Ross Ice shelf?  Maybe what is needed is an<BR>
enterprise initially built on such a berg.  Who is going to argue ownership<BR>
of such an ephemeral piece of real estate.  It would give you a stable<BR>
platform, 10 to 20 year life, to build your permanent structures on.  You<BR>
could them float them where you wanted.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:59:09 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Say didn't I hear about some Texas sized mega berg<BR>
> that just calved off of the Ross Ice shelf?<BR>
<BR>
Rhode Island sized, which may be smaller than the<BR>
Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. :-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:50:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 10:47 AM 5/17/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It struck me as a pretty big squad, though. Thinking about it, if it <BR>
>was a squad it would explain Gorman stating at the rear - he wasn't the <BR>
>squad's commander (that would be Apone), but the whole operation's <BR>
>commander. I always viewed it as a short platoon, as there was an <BR>
>officer (of sorts) in command.<BR>
<BR>
Two fire teams, organized around the smart guns, about five men per team,<BR>
plus the two person flight crew and Gorman.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a fairly heavy squad.  There weren't enough NCOs to call it a<BR>
platoon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:54:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:02:45 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
on 5/16/00 7:50 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:47 AM 5/17/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> It struck me as a pretty big squad, though. Thinking about it, if it<BR>
>> was a squad it would explain Gorman stating at the rear - he wasn't the<BR>
>> squad's commander (that would be Apone), but the whole operation's<BR>
>> commander. I always viewed it as a short platoon, as there was an<BR>
>> officer (of sorts) in command.<BR>
> <BR>
> Two fire teams, organized around the smart guns, about five men per team,<BR>
> plus the two person flight crew and Gorman.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sounds like a fairly heavy squad.  There weren't enough NCOs to call it a<BR>
> platoon.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds exactly like a squad.  Two fire teams and a squad leader.  Usually<BR>
3-4 squads in a platoon, plus platoon leader, RTO medic.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:08:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 19:50, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:47 AM 5/17/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >It struck me as a pretty big squad, though. Thinking about it, if it was<BR>
> >a squad it would explain Gorman stating at the rear - he wasn't the<BR>
> >squad's commander (that would be Apone), but the whole operation's<BR>
> >commander. I always viewed it as a short platoon, as there was an officer<BR>
> >(of sorts) in command.<BR>
> <BR>
> Two fire teams, organized around the smart guns, about five men per team,<BR>
> plus the two person flight crew and Gorman.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sounds like a fairly heavy squad.  There weren't enough NCOs to call it a<BR>
> platoon. -- <BR>
<BR>
On reflection I agree, it's just that the first time I saw it I <BR>
mentally tageed it as a platoon, and it's stuck all these years. As for <BR>
the lack of NPCs - you haven't seen a NZ Army territorial platoon on <BR>
exercise, I take it?<BR>
<BR>
Theoetical TO:<BR>
<BR>
Platoon Commander:      1st or 2nd Lt<BR>
Platoon Sergeant:       Sergeant<BR>
Sig.:                   Private or LCpl<BR>
Medic:                  Private or LCpl<BR>
<BR>
Section Commanders (3): Corporal<BR>
Section 2IC (3):        Lance Corporal<BR>
Grunts (7-9 per section): Private<BR>
<BR>
May have attached GPMG detachment (det) of: LCpl or Cpl + 2 Privates, <BR>
and Military Intelligence (Private or LCpl), and/or anything else the <BR>
Company OC or Battalion thinks they can spare.<BR>
<BR>
Actual TO:<BR>
<BR>
Platoon Commander:      1st or 2nd Lt<BR>
Platoon Sergeant:       Sergeant (sometimes a Corporal)<BR>
Sig.:                   Private (often a grunt, not a sig)<BR>
Medic:                  Private (or none)<BR>
<BR>
Section Commanders (3): 1 Corporal + 2 LCpl<BR>
Section 2IC (3):        1 or 2 LCpl + 1 or 2 Private<BR>
Grunts (5-7 per section): Private<BR>
<BR>
Attachments: You're joking (though we had a "attached" mortar at one <BR>
point, because the crew were too wimpy to carry up a mountain, so we <BR>
did, as thus had ourselves an 81mm mortar).<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:10:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 19:54, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
> impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
> intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
> <BR>
> Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
Is it based off that thing by Hubbard. If it is, and you knew before <BR>
you saw it you deserve everything you just suffered.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:49:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
><BR>
>Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
I have this haunting image of Doug's intestines bursting out, Alien like,<BR>
sending popcorn in all directions and snaking around Doug's neck,<BR>
Re-Animator like.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:47:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
<BR>
I'd be happy to volunteer<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:51 PM<BR>
Subject: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
> http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
> <BR>
> Wanted! Volunteer(s) to test the Excel 5 version of 'The Traveller <BR>
> Trader Spreadsheet'. This spreadsheet calculates the expected profit <BR>
> on all systems in jump range using the MegaTraveller trade rules. <BR>
> This version has been saved back as Excel 5 from 97, and we need <BR>
> someone to try it out and see if it works. If you have both Excel 97 <BR>
> and Excel 5 to run a comparison it'd be excellent.<BR>
> <BR>
> There's no reward, but we'd appreciate it if someone could help so <BR>
> this software can be used by more people.<BR>
> <BR>
> email me at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com if you can help.<BR>
> <BR>
> Cheers,<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
>                   BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
>   http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
> GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
> BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
> All rights reserved.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:01:27 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Chris wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Doug wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> >If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
> >impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
> >intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
> <BR>
> I have this haunting image of Doug's intestines bursting out, Alien like,<BR>
> sending popcorn in all directions and snaking around Doug's neck,<BR>
> Re-Animator like.<BR>
> <BR>
The next question is how many Marines would it take to take out his intestines,<BR>
 and their colony now in the theather.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:54:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 04:36 PM,  "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> > The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the<BR>
>> > people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All<BR>
>> > they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only<BR>
>> > group with easy access to the moon.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets billionaire's<BR>
>> terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and you're are enjoined from going<BR>
>> to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
>And then who gets to lob big rocks at whom?<BR>
<BR>
No, no!  Billionaire doesn't want to throw big rocks.  Doesn't have<BR>
to throw big rocks, he's got big bucks to throw.  I'm sure he would<BR>
have to grease palms here and there, but that's the nature of any<BR>
business in some parts of the world.<BR>
<BR>
The UN and its member states?  Nah!  <BR>
<BR>
The UN's thoughts on the matter are meaningless, unless its member<BR>
states imbue it with some military force and the discresion to use<BR>
it.  I won't say that isn't going to happen, but IMO it will be<BR>
worse for us all if it does...no, I'm not a "One-Worlder."  <g> At<BR>
the moment the UN can rail and shout, but I doubt the Security<BR>
Council could be counted on to unanimously impose any sort of<BR>
sanction.<BR>
<BR>
The thoughts of the member states matter, but don't deal with a<BR>
Lunar colony except peripherally.  If some state is going to<BR>
impound/nationalize Billionaire Bill's assets then they are going to<BR>
do it for selfish reasons that have little to do with "the common<BR>
heritge of mankind."  <BR>
<BR>
Bloo, you might be right about international law, *BUT* I doubt your<BR>
belief is shared by most citizens of the United States.  If the UN<BR>
tried to impose the terms of a treaty the US Senate hasn't ratified,<BR>
I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
No, I don't think the UN wants to pull a *political* blunder like<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that the World Court found the US guilty of war<BR>
crimes (or something like that) in relation to our involvement in<BR>
the Vietnam conflict back in 69 or 70.  Whether that court decision<BR>
was morally or legally correct, it had little or no effect on the<BR>
US's prosecution of that war.  Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and there is *no* if about it, the Moon Treaty has NOT been<BR>
ratified by the US Senate.  The only active lobbying I've ever done<BR>
was against that treaty.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    charter member of the L5 Society, <BR>
    National Space Society, <BR>
    Space Studies Institute, <BR>
    High Frontier Society<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:57:28 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 07:54 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Not funny?<BR>
<BR>
I fully expected it to be awful, but I was hoping it would be soooo bad it would be a gut buster of a different sort.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:00:42 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> My short on this is that it was the classic shipwreck in space; and a<BR>
> >> good source for a (already done) Traveller adventure.  It was an<BR>
> >> enjoyable film and was worth seeing for $5.75 at a drive-in.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Kristian<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Drive-in? they still exist? I think the number of drive-ins in Australia<BR>
> >can be counted on one hand...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a "popular"<BR>
drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature) for<BR>
that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:08:15 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: M$T1C <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
To: Legate Legion <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 8:22 PM<BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hello Legate,<BR>
><BR>
> you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >     Insects are probably the most powerful lifeform, just in terms of<BR>
brut<BR>
> > force.  If an insect was the size of a human, you would need at least<BR>
20mm<BR>
> > rounds to defeat it.  Their exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel<BR>
or<BR>
> > stronger.<BR>
><BR>
> But one should not forget, especially when dealing with<BR>
> scifi-universes, that a man-sized insect would get several problems<BR>
> under normal gravity.<BR>
> Their exoskeleton is quite strong. As long as they are small.<BR>
> Man-sized, their exoskeleton would become unstable due to its own<BR>
> weight. It's like in Star Trek, when the Enterprise's hull integrity<BR>
> field collapses.<BR>
> And furthermore, these insects would require imensely strong muscles<BR>
> to move their armor.<BR>
> These muscles would have to be very dense in order to fit under the<BR>
> exoskeleton.<BR>
> All in all, such a creature would be very heavy, loud and, probably,<BR>
> slow.<BR>
> Under 1G, that is.<BR>
> Under lower gravities...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
But as a plot device, this is best ignored.  My old group were always saying<BR>
things like, "Yeah, gut a giant mutant flea wouldn't blah, blah, blah like a<BR>
real flea" or "Giant ants couldn't possibly..." and so on, but that's what<BR>
they wanted to see in Traveller, encounters with greeblies just like that!<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:41:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
tim wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Chris wrote<BR>
>><BR>
>> I have this haunting image of Doug's intestines bursting out, Alien like,<BR>
>> sending popcorn in all directions and snaking around Doug's neck,<BR>
>> Re-Animator like.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>The next question is how many Marines would it take to take out his<BR>
intestines,<BR>
>and their colony now in the theather.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure, but I suspect that Lt. Gorman would collect the 10mm AP ammo<BR>
to avoid rupturing the cannisters of the<BR>
"hot-oil-posing-as-a-butter-substitute" at the snack bar. If *that* crap<BR>
leaked it would make the power plant explosion at the end of Aliens look<BR>
like a firecracker.<BR>
<BR>
They almost had to call in the Marines after I went to see Gladiator last<BR>
week. There was a power outage immediately after the vast, sweeping and<BR>
jaw-dropping opening battle scene. *Everyone*, even the really old people,<BR>
were wired to see gladiator violence and were unhappy about their popcorn<BR>
and circuses ending so abruptly. Our time at the movie theater ended with a<BR>
friend of mine[1] screaming at one of the managers, "They came here to see a<BR>
fight, and they will, dammit! I don't care if there's no arena!" We did end<BR>
up seeing the rest, for free, at a theater which made Cabbie's theater in<BR>
"Escape from New York" look like it was in good repair. It smelled like<BR>
poorly scrubbed out urine, the floors were covered with muck (not just<BR>
sticky, but genuinely *swampy*), and when the house lights came up I noticed<BR>
the once-beautiful chandelier above my head was hanging, like the Sword of<BR>
Damocles, by a single electrical wire.<BR>
<BR>
The moral of this story is that even at the most heinous, disgusting and<BR>
vile theater in Philadelphia (and trust me, it is truly *nasty*),<BR>
"Gladiator" was thoroughly entertaining. Just don't expect it to be 100%<BR>
historically accurate, although it does have its moments, some of the little<BR>
touches were nice and well informed. It is truly moviemaking in the grand<BR>
old tradition of Hollywood. Really lavish sets, beautiful costumes,<BR>
breathtakingly vast shots and good storytelling (visually, aurally and<BR>
literally). I liked it so much that I saw it twice in three days. If<BR>
Battlefield Earth makes you feel empty inside, then Gladiator may very well<BR>
fill you up with good ol' fashioned filmmaking.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
influenced by ancient Rome. So where the hell are the gladiators? I mean,<BR>
the sheer variety of habitats in the Imperium is staggering and would offer<BR>
many innovative settings for brutal gladiatorial violence and bloodthirsty<BR>
crowds cheering. Okay, yeah, it's certainly true that the Imperium outlaws<BR>
chattel slavery, but I'm sure that an inventive GM could come up with a way<BR>
around *that*. I can see it now: zero-G trained gladiators brawling, to the<BR>
death, in the center of lazily spinning orbital colonies. Gladiators<BR>
fighting on airless worlds, avoiding fatal cuts and punctures to their<BR>
spacesuits. Gladiators can fight anywhere, anytime and come to think of it,<BR>
a gladiator campaign could be entertaining, which is why I say:<BR>
<BR>
"Merargakur khi daririr danima!"[2]<BR>
<BR>
[1] Please see my previous post about my neighborhood's notoriety.<BR>
[2] "We, who are about to die, salute you!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2443<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2444<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
Finding Travellers (was: Halifax Travellers?)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Buying countries <BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
Re: Ideas for BITS<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Not Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping <BR>
Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:02:57 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 05:30 PM,  "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>     I think it is important to remember that the introduction to Book 4<BR>
>states that the majority of merc tickets take place at the frontier, in<BR>
>that portion of space where communications are still infrequent and<BR>
>political stability is not a given.  The introduction describes the<BR>
>frontier has having planets whose low population, unstable political<BR>
>climate, and low frequency of trained military veterans often makes<BR>
>hiring mercenaries a necessity.  For this reason, the CT era is described<BR>
>as "the Golden Age of the Mercenary".<BR>
<BR>
>     By the way, I liked Leonard Erickson's point about these bonds being<BR>
>an inexpensive way to avoid POW camps, never thought of it quite that<BR>
>way.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and I agree with you that if employers didn't play by the<BR>
rules, including honoring repartation bonds they would be not only<BR>
very unlikely to be able to hire any more mercenaries they might<BR>
find those in their employ turning on them.<BR>
<BR>
The Hammer's Slammers books by David Drake deal with this sort of<BR>
universe.  <BR>
<BR>
>3.  Having said all that, I still feel the best bet is to have a back-up<BR>
>exit plan.  This is sort of a moot point because any professional officer<BR>
>or NCO would  have a contingency plan for something as important as<BR>
>getting out of the battle area.  This is important because, no matter how<BR>
>universal these repatriation bonds are accepted, somebody, somewhere is<BR>
>going to think they are above this custom and attempt to violate them. <BR>
>As something to ponder, does anybody think those Kenyan peacekeepers in<BR>
>Sierra Leone imagined, as they deployed, that they would eventually be<BR>
>held hostage by one of the sides they were supposed to be separating (the<BR>
>rebels) and be threatened with being skinned alive?  Crazy things happen,<BR>
>always have a back-up plan.<BR>
<BR>
>(By the way, I did not intend to disparage the Kenyans.  According to<BR>
>MSNBC, they have been doing a valiant job holding the rebels off for<BR>
>several days (weeks?) now especially considering that they are greatly<BR>
>outnumbered and deployed with only 100 rounds each.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I suspect the Kenyan troopers did contemplate that<BR>
possibility going in, or at least their officers should have.  It's<BR>
just that there wasn't much they could do about it given the<BR>
situation.  Heck, almost by definition a "peacekeeper" is a target<BR>
with bullseyes painted on both front and back.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:18:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Finding Travellers (was: Halifax Travellers?)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 08:38 PM,  Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all.  I just recently moved to Halifax (Nova Scotia, Canada, that is) <BR>
>and was wondering if there are any other Traveller fans in this fine<BR>
>city.  If so, please get in touch with me via personal email.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, looking in the TML Roster that I host on my website I find...<BR>
<BR>
Michel Vaillancourt, Halifax, Nova Scotia, CA,<BR>
http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
<BR>
If you'd like to be added, drop me an email including your...<BR>
<BR>
Name<BR>
City<BR>
State/Province<BR>
Country<BR>
url (optional)<BR>
email (optional)<BR>
<BR>
...and I'll be happy to add you. My email and url are listed below.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:50:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:00 PM 5/16/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Didn't you see that movie where the kids saved America after the Soviet<BR>
>>invasion ?<BR>
><BR>
> *splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.<BR>
<BR>
Considering the lack of background the *scriptwriter* had, I think the<BR>
movie did an ok job of getting across how partisans get started, and<BR>
the sorts of mistakes they'll make. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, they had far too many "easy" successes, and too few "stupid"<BR>
casualties. <BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested in a list of what both the kids and the invaders did<BR>
wrong, though...<BR>
<BR>
BTW, a couple of the late 40s early 50s war movies have the troops (the<BR>
crew of a sub in one case) making *highly* critical comments about the<BR>
action in a movie they are watching.<BR>
<BR>
Hollywood has been making unintentional "war comedies" for a *long* time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:37:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> Note that the whole concept of a 'rift' is not supported in the real world.<BR>
>> There can be random inconvenient areas, but you aren't going to see big <BR>
> empty<BR>
>> spaces.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, there are large rifts between the spiral arms of the galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, it turns out that the areas between the arms have just as many<BR>
stars. They are just *older* stars. So between the lack of bright<BR>
nebulae and the lack of blue giants, they *look* dim and empty.<BR>
<BR>
The arms are just the areas where stars get *created*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:12:56 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>US's prosecution of that war.  Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
>the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
>many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
<BR>
  Yes, but economic & other warfare against Nicaragua was necessary<BR>
to protect the US South-West, IIRC :|<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:14:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
                _______<BR>
> > [1]        /       \<BR>
> >           /         \<BR>
> >          /     .     \<BR>
> >          \    /|     /<BR>
> >           \ c/ | b  /<BR>
> >            \/__|___/<BR>
> >              a<BR>
<BR>
> > The hex can be considered as 12 right triangles, one of<BR>
> > which, triangle abc, is illustrated above (the halves of the <BR>
> > 6 equilateral triangles formed by each hex face) of height 0.5 <BR>
> > parsec. Using the Pythagorean theorem (a^2 + b^2 = c^2) we <BR>
> > determine that each triangles dimensions are a = 0.375 parsec, <BR>
> > b = 0.5 parsec, and c = 0.625 parsec. Hence the standard hexes <BR>
> > area is 12 * (0.5 * 0.375 * 0.5) or 1.125 square parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
> If the hex is formed by six equilateral triangles, then a=c/2, which <BR>
> is not true with your numbers. <BR>
<BR>
Oops. Obviously there's a good reason Carlos is a mathematician<BR>
and I am not. It's been over 15 years since Geometry.<BR>
<BR>
> Setting 2b=1 (i.e. an hex is one parsec across vertically) yields<BR>
> b=0.5, a=0.28867 (approx.), c=0.57735 (approx.)<BR>
> which incidentally shows that the 6 triangles are equilateral.<BR>
<BR>
Then the area of each hex is 0.8660 and for its volume to<BR>
be 8 it's height would have to be 9.2377 parsecs. If c=0.57735 <BR>
than the diagonal distance across the hex would be 1.1547 parsec.<BR>
Therefore a Jump 1 drive maximum distance must be 1.1547 parsec.<BR>
Thus it would take a Jump 8 to travel between layers of stars.<BR>
<BR>
> Setting 2c=1 (i.e. an hex is one parsec across diagonally) yields<BR>
> c=0.5, a=0.25, b=0.4330 (approx.)<BR>
> if I didn't make a mistake.<BR>
<BR>
In this case the area of a hex is 0.75 parsec and for its<BR>
volume to be 8 than its height must be 10.6667 parsecs.<BR>
In this case the maximum length of a Jump 1 drive is 1.0<BR>
parsec therefore this would require Jump 11.<BR>
<BR>
> I am afraid that your numbers for areas and distances are then <BR>
> slightly off.<BR>
<BR>
Yes they were but  they should be correct now.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:29:27 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > ObTrav: Sucker your PC's into entering contests and lotteries.<BR>
> > Let them win. Use the 'free trip' to get them into trouble.<BR>
<BR>
> What for? They (including yours ;-p) get into trouble fairly well, <BR>
> all by themselves... anyway, I'll note it for future use <g>. <BR>
<BR>
Trouble typically involves a situation. Sometimes the trouble<BR>
should come to the players and sometimes the players should<BR>
come to the trouble.<BR>
<BR>
The ability of PC's (especially those with significant mental<BR>
disadvantages) to get hemselves into trouble is required<BR>
for consistant role playing. I disagree with many of the decisions<BR>
made by many of my charecters but I act as I believe they<BR>
should act in the situation.<BR>
<BR>
Juloa is uncomfortable with Vargr because she 'knows' that <BR>
sentience is not a function of mental capacity but is an attribute <BR>
of having a soul and she 'knows' that the soul is a resonance <BR>
phenomenon projecting outward into the members of the race <BR>
from a single universal perfect Platonic Number located in <BR>
jump space. Vargr, by their inconsistent behavior, show no <BR>
numerological signs of their number. Therefore they do not have<BR>
a number. Therefore they are non sapient and talking with them<BR>
as equals is likely to be unproductive. I'm not sure that you, <BR>
as the Ref, benfit from knowing the details of her delusion.<BR>
If I had to write up a sufficiently long article on her faith<BR>
the above information would be in there.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:31:56 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/16/00 at 11:12 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>...<BR>
>>US's prosecution of that war.  Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
>>the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
>>many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
<BR>
>  Yes, but economic & other warfare against Nicaragua was necessary to<BR>
>protect the US South-West, IIRC :|<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Ha! Good thing I wasn't drinking something when I read that. <g><BR>
<BR>
You know I personally don't have a problem with the occasional<BR>
"gun-boat" policy, but I'm really sick of politicians trying to hide<BR>
behind non-existent fig leaves.  The US has a vital interest in<BR>
having secure borders and stable neighbors (and that includes<BR>
Central America and the Caribbean), and an enlightened approach is<BR>
to float *all* the boats.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  Given that the Third Imperium has become basically<BR>
static, it also has an interest in stable and secure borders.  With<BR>
Aslan on one, Vargr on a second, K'kree near another, and Nazis in<BR>
space agitating on a fourth what kind of games does the 3I play?<BR>
Can you imagine them doing secret deals with the Aslan to supply<BR>
guerrilla groups in Sollie space?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:19:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Two fire teams, organized around the smart guns, about five men per team,<BR>
>plus the two person flight crew and Gorman.<BR>
><BR>
>Sounds like a fairly heavy squad.  There weren't enough NCOs to call it a<BR>
>platoon.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    There was Apone & Hicks, so I would have to say that it was just a<BR>
squad, nothing more nothing less.<BR>
    Also, didn't it seem to you that Apone & Hicks had been working together<BR>
for a long (3+ years) time together?  When the Marines woke up, on the<BR>
loading bay, in the briefing, etc, etc, etc.  It seemed to me as if Hick &<BR>
Apone were working hand in glove.  I.e. they knew what the other was going<BR>
to do, before he did it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:23:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I have to disagree with Doug Berry here, but then when do I agree with<BR>
him (I know I agree with Penguin Boy alot, but that is not the point, the<BR>
point is.... I forgot what the point was.)?<BR>
    Anyway, I saw BFE tonight as well, for the second time.  I thought it<BR>
was a good movie, knowing that it is only the first half or third of the<BR>
book.  The casting what perfect, totaly perfect.  The setting was perfect,<BR>
the ploting was perfect, the pace was perfect, I would have to give it a 9.5<BR>
out of 10.<BR>
    Btw, Doug, do you mind if I use Penguin Boy/Douglas Berry in a V&V game<BR>
I am working on?<BR>
<BR>
>Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Bad, bad, penguin.  Bad penguin.<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:30:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
>>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
>>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
>>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
><BR>
>I have this haunting image of Doug's intestines bursting out, Alien like,<BR>
>sending popcorn in all directions and snaking around Doug's neck,<BR>
>Re-Animator like.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Please, Chris bring this up on the Marines vs. Alien Thread.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
    Doug Berry:  Urg, urg, urg.<BR>
    Legate Legion:  What's wrong with Penguin Boy?<BR>
    Chris Seamans:  He just saw "Battlefield Earth".<BR>
    Legate Legion:  So, it was a cool movie.  Why is he making the "urg"<BR>
sounds?<BR>
    Doug Berry:  Urg, urg, urg.<BR>
    Chris Seamans:  I think his intestines are trying to throttle him.<BR>
    Legate Legion:  Why?<BR>
    [Chris Seamans puts his ear to Doug Berry's Mouth]<BR>
    Doug Berry:  Urg, urg, arg, arg.<BR>
    Chris Seamans:  He says that the movie sucked.<BR>
    Legate Legion:  I have seen it twice, it didn't suck.<BR>
    [Doug's inrestines explode out of his belly, showering everyone with<BR>
gore, they then look around at everyone for a moment.]<BR>
    Legate Legion:  Belly Buster.<BR>
    Chris Seamans:  That was totally gross.<BR>
    Legate Legion:  It looks like Penguin Boy ate at Del Taco before he saw<BR>
BFE.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:31:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: tim@premier.net <tim@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<< The next question is how many Marines would it take to take out his<BR>
intestines, and their colony now in the theather. >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not many, just show the Rocky Horror Picture Show there at Midnight an<BR>
Friday & Saturday nights & they will be happy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:20:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (was Re: Mercenaries)<BR>
<BR>
"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Warning: Playing devil's advocate here out of sheer curiosity. <BR>
> Questions might not be understood to imply opinions.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > >This may provide an explanation of why Religious Dictatorships<BR>
> > >(Government Type D) have a -2 TL DM. People in Religious<BR>
> > >Dictatorships may be significantly more likely to do these sorts<BR>
> > >of stupid things (killing Mercs rathher than honoring their repatriation<BR>
> > >bonds). This upsets the Megacorps, the Imperium, and the citizens<BR>
> > >of other planets. Than their interstellar trade starts to dry<BR>
> > >up. In the long run this results in a - 2 TL penalty.<BR>
<BR>
> A religious dictatorship kills Mercs still of honouring repatriation <BR>
> bonds. Fine. So...<BR>
<BR>
> Why should this upset the megacorps? Say the planet pays an <BR>
> indemnity. <BR>
<BR>
Everything is about money in Traveller. The indemnity has to<BR>
be more than the bonds or it's no deterrent. Therefore killing<BR>
the Merc does not make economic sense. If the corps can not<BR>
trust the planets government to honor one sort of agreement<BR>
that Imperial tradition demands they ought to then why should they<BR>
honor any future agreements?<BR>
<BR>
Therefore it is not in the interests of most corporations<BR>
to choose to do business with this government. Those that<BR>
do will demand a premium.<BR>
<BR>
> Or say they never inform anybody that those Mercs had <BR>
> asked for a repatriation before being slaughtered. Even if it somehow<BR>
> upsets a megacorp, why would a corp rennounce to a market? Even if <BR>
> it happened, I rather suspect that being blocked by Hortalez would <BR>
> grant you Tukera's support.<BR>
<BR>
The behavior the government has shown would make it less<BR>
likely that people would want to do business with them. I<BR>
don't see the Taliban, for instance, as a regime that is<BR>
able to encourage much international commerce. Religious<BR>
Dictatorships in Traveller may be the same.<BR>
<BR>
> Why should it upset the Imperium? The Imperial <BR>
> militaries might think that a potential source of instability <BR>
> has been removed this way (the Mercs themselves)?<BR>
<BR>
If the Imperial government thought that way then their would <BR>
not be so many Mercenaries in the first place. Book 4 clearly <BR>
establishes that Mercenaries are common. <BR>
<BR>
> Why should this upset the *citizens* of other planets? I can <BR>
> hardly envision Mercs being popular heroes, except maybe in a Vargr <BR>
> culture. But in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
It's not the fact that the mercenaries have been killed its<BR>
the fact that the planets government has violated traditional<BR>
custom (in a conservative Vilani influenced culture) and has<BR>
hurt interstellar commerce (the lifeblood of the Imperium).<BR>
<BR>
The canonical Imperium is a place where "The business of<BR>
the Imperium is business." and "What's good for General<BR>
Products is good for the Imperium." The Religious Dictatorship<BR>
has violated these memes.<BR>
<BR>
Other than anti psionic, anti foreigners, and to a lesser degree<BR>
anti alien prejudice I see the Imperium as a place where greed<BR>
is a 'traditional family value' right behind 'Duty, Honor, and<BR>
Imperium'. Allowing religious feelings to get in the way of<BR>
business would be seen as strange.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:36:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ideas for BITS<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, I'd like something like a beefed up "Pilot's Guide to...". <BR>
> Gamelords did a good one in 48 pages of small book format. <BR>
<BR>
True but the amount of detail a world can be given has<BR>
increased since then, therefore longer books may be needed.<BR>
<BR>
> If you did "Guide" to some undetailed subsector, you could <BR>
> follow it up with several more books providing<BR>
> details and adventures set there. <BR>
<BR>
Given that the Spinward Marches is still the most popular<BR>
Traveller setting I suggest a subsector directly neighboring<BR>
the Marches. I think our subsector should have at least<BR>
some Imperial worlds. I also thing that a frontier subsector<BR>
would be best. This narrows our choices down a bit.<BR>
<BR>
How about Pax Rulin Subsector, Subsector C of Trojan Reach.<BR>
It has 16 worlds. If 16 people each did one 3 BITS page<BR>
article on a world in it, we'd have a 48 page book. The best<BR>
sources of info on the subsector are CT Adv. 4 Leviathan and TNE's<BR>
Regency SB. Pax Rulin is relatively undetailed.<BR>
<BR>
As of 1117 Pax Rulin subsector has 10 Imperial members, 2 client <BR>
states, a 3 member polity the Senlis Federation, and 1 non aligned<BR>
world. I'd like to stake a claim to Pax Rulin, the Imperial<BR>
Subsector Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
If BITS doesn't want to do this we can put it up on the web<BR>
and/or publish it to the list. Is anyone else interested?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:40:47 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
> Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
> impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
> intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
><BR>
> Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
Is this something to do with LRon's "masterwork" or that cheesy 1970's one<BR>
with the zap gun in the middle of the desert ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:47:29 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Not Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Do we need to get to the point where we initiate<BR>
> >the defenestration of the antidisestablishmentarianists?<BR>
><BR>
>  Sure. I'd LOVE to get Windows off of my Intel box...<BR>
<BR>
First you got to have an Intel box Jim.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:41:29 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Count Blaine Tukera was known before marriage to Margaret<BR>
> as Count Mortimer Blaine.  Mortimer Blaine, under the stage<BR>
> name Pickles Thirty-Fourth, made a series of adult holovids<BR>
> that were stunning successes throughout Galanglic-speaking<BR>
> space.  <BR>
<BR>
Does this sort of production really require the watchers<BR>
to speak Galanglic?<BR>
<BR>
> One reason for the popularity of the Pickles Thirty-Fourth<BR>
> 'vids may be Blaine's response to an interview question<BR>
> early in his career:  "Is the rumor true that you don't use<BR>
> any double, any make-up, or any computer graphics in your<BR>
> 'vids?"  "Yes, it's true.  That's just me up there."<BR>
<BR>
So am I correct in understanding that 34 is a significant<BR>
part of the then Mr. Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify 34 cm<BR>
perhaps? If so your TU is seems somewhat indelicate.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:44:13 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> All good points.<BR>
> One other possibility to consider: Religious dictatorships don't retard<BR>
> technological development... Religious dictatorships are just more likely<BR>
> on low-tech worlds. In other words, technology effects the government type<BR>
> as much as government type effects technology.<BR>
<BR>
Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller Tech Level is generated after Government type.<BR>
Therefore in Traveller the government must influence the<BR>
Tech Level. If Tech Level influenced government type it would<BR>
be generated before government type, not after. <g, d, r><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:11:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping <BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > If there is on average 1 system per 16 cubic parsecs and<BR>
> > a typical Traveller hex has a 50% chance of having a<BR>
> > star then perhaps a hex has a volume about 8 cubic parsecs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Or perhaps we consider that average stellar density around Sol is lower<BR>
> than 50% even in Traveller canon.<BR>
<BR>
Not according to Solomani Rim its not.<BR>
<BR>
> > Thus the 3-D nature of the galaxy can be ignored by all those of<BR>
> > who want to stick to 2-D jump space maps without significantly<BR>
> > altering canon. It also allows those of you who want 3-D jump<BR>
> > space to explain why other vertical layers rarely interact with<BR>
> > the single 2-d layer presented<BR>
<BR>
> You really believe this would help reducing the suspension of disbelief? <BR>
> - - Well, I disaggree. Stars are not at all arranged in "layers", at least<BR>
> not physically. It looks too artificial. YMMV. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not suggesting that the stars themselves are layered, I'm <BR>
suggesting that jump space is layered. How do you know that <BR>
jump space is not arranged in layers?<BR>
<BR>
I am suggesting that jump space is like a bunch of phonographic<BR>
records stacked one on top of another. You can walk across<BR>
(jump in) each layer or you can walk between layers. However walking<BR>
between records is harder (requires a higher jump number)<BR>
<BR>
> (And did I mention that I like most that Freelance Traveller Jump Space<BR>
> Physics Explanation? I did? Good. :-)  This is just to say that if you<BR>
> want to stick with the 2D maps, <BR>
<BR>
Yes I want to stick with the 2D maps all else would be heresy.<BR>
<BR>
> the necessary work for a more realistic<BR>
> "starchart feel" has already been done. )<BR>
> <BR>
> And, by the way, for two rivaling interstellar empires, it would still<BR>
> be cheaper to expand to another "layer" than reaching out too far from<BR>
> the centre, even if they have to build special ships or special<BR>
> infrastructure. Again, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
That depends on their tech level.  Getting across a Jump 8 rift<BR>
with a Jump 2 drive is hard. Jump 2 is the best the Vilani had and<BR>
they were not noted for being innovative. Therefore it is quite<BR>
possible that the First Empire was only in one layer. Therefore<BR>
when the Terran's conquered the Empire the Second Empire was<BR>
also only one layer high. Given that their resources were<BR>
stretched painfully thin at first it seems unlikely that they <BR>
would have explored other layers. Then came the Long Night and <BR>
most long distance space travel, much less travel to unknown <BR>
areas, stopped. Therefore exploration of other layers is unlikely <BR>
before the Third Imperium. Given that exploring other layers<BR>
is harder than exploring the primary layer it seems to me that<BR>
the Imperium would not have done so to any great while they could <BR>
still explore normally along an unbounded frontier. The Imperium<BR>
only lost its last frontier when the Solomani Sphere separated<BR>
from the Imperium. Therefore Imperial exploration of other layers<BR>
would only be common in the last century or three.<BR>
<BR>
I can see the Aslan exploring other layers to get land. The<BR>
Zhodani already have along term goal (the Core Explorations)<BR>
so I don't see them bothering with other layers. Vargr go anywhere<BR>
so I can see them in other layers. K'kree ships would find<BR>
it almost impossible to carry enough fuel to get across a Jump<BR>
8 distance given their claustrophobia. Hivers might go to other<BR>
layers out of curiosity but with all the interesting things to<BR>
manipulate in this layer it seems unlikely to be a major<BR>
interest of theirs. The Solomani might well colonize other<BR>
layers. Droyne are scarce and most of them don't explore much<BR>
so they probably won't go to other layers.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller canon states that "nowhere beyond Charted Space has<BR>
intelligence produced the jump drive that makes interstellar <BR>
travel possible" [MT Ref Man p. 7] so races from other layers<BR>
won't be able to travel to our layer. Although if misjumps can <BR>
take you between layers then logically jump capable cultures should <BR>
have built up in nearby layers....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 04:39:55 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 17 May 2000 00:41:47 -0400, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
>influenced by ancient Rome. So where the hell are the gladiators? I mean,<BR>
>the sheer variety of habitats in the Imperium is staggering and would offer<BR>
>many innovative settings for brutal gladiatorial violence and bloodthirsty<BR>
>crowds cheering. Okay, yeah, it's certainly true that the Imperium outlaws<BR>
>chattel slavery, but I'm sure that an inventive GM could come up with a way<BR>
>around *that*. I can see it now: zero-G trained gladiators brawling, to the<BR>
>death, in the center of lazily spinning orbital colonies. Gladiators<BR>
>fighting on airless worlds, avoiding fatal cuts and punctures to their<BR>
>spacesuits. Gladiators can fight anywhere, anytime and come to think of it,<BR>
>a gladiator campaign could be entertaining, which is why I say:<BR>
<BR>
You could use prisoners that have been condemned to death or long<BR>
imprisonment. They would be given a choice:<BR>
<BR>
1. Fight in the arena. Freedom after x number of games.<BR>
2. Serve out your sentence.<BR>
<BR>
It is rather easy to get convicts to fight and kill each other.<BR>
Winners could be resettled on another planet. Can't have them walking<BR>
around in *normal* society.<BR>
<BR>
>"Merargakur khi daririr danima!"[2]<BR>
>[2] "We, who are about to die, salute you!"<BR>
<BR>
How would you say "Strength and honor"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"If a country is worth living in, it is worth fighting for."   -Manning Coles<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2444<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2445</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2445<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: Imperial Marines<BR>
Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: POW<BR>
Re: Islands at low tide<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:23:08 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:38 AM 5/17/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I forgot to mention that we'll do some prep for GameCon at the May 20<BR>
>meet.  It looks like there's going to be a fair bit of Traveller games<BR>
>this year.<BR>
<BR>
<blinkblink><BR>
<BR>
Someone else is going to GameCon?<BR>
<BR>
Nice to see that some fellow Travellers will be there at the <BR>
convention.  I'll be running a GURPS Lite: Traveller game on Sunday, and a <BR>
MIB at the con will be running another GURPS Traveller game on Saturday.<BR>
<BR>
If you have the time, stop by at one of those games or the SJ Games demo <BR>
table on Saturday.  It would be nice to put more faces to names I see on <BR>
the TML!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:04:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 17 May 00, at 11:40, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
>> acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee<BR>
>> swarm...who gets swatted?<BR>
><BR>
> That's what napalm and flamethrowers are for.<BR>
<BR>
Before you cheerfully flame that insect swarm, I suggest reading<BR>
"Beowulf's Children". Flaming one of *those* swarms will get you *dead*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:59:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I've run across a few stories set in post-apocalyptic futures that had<BR>
>> the Boy Scouts wind up providing the structure that held a few areas<BR>
>> together. One had a bandit band encountering some Scouts on patrol.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I think it's a viable idea for some worlds during/after the Long Night.<BR>
>> The Boy (and Girl) Scouts encourage survival skills, and other skills<BR>
>> that are useful during disasters. This disaster just lasts a bit<BR>
>> longer...<BR>
><BR>
> If i remember correctly GURPS Autoduel has the CSA, the Commando Scouts of<BR>
> America...Survival and Heavy Weapon skills...helping old ladies across the <BR>
> street has never been more fun...<BR>
<BR>
GT *has* to put "AutoDuel Earth" *somewhere* in the areas that<BR>
underwent the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the interactions get interesting. A trunk-mounted pop-up<BR>
FGMP tends to discourage pursuers. Not only does it fry tailgaters, but<BR>
it melts the pavement making it kinda hard to follow you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:15:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
><BR>
>>     Back when my dad was a Combat Engineer, he used to trade explosive<BR>
>>techniques with the Rangers.<BR>
><BR>
>     They are always nice people, the Rangers, I mean.  They always keep<BR>
> their home so neat & tidy.<BR>
><BR>
>>Kinda like swapping cookie receipes... :-)<BR>
><BR>
>     Of course it is.<BR>
><BR>
>>    For example, you don't want to blow a bridge into tiny pieces.  You<BR>
>>want to blow the connections to the shore, *warp* the structure  and drop<BR>
>>it into place.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Correct, do not waste good C-4 unless you have to.<BR>
<BR>
It's not the wastage of explosive that counts there. It's that if you<BR>
drop the bridge (suitably warped) "in place", you accomplish *multiple*<BR>
goals:<BR>
<BR>
1. You prevent the use of the bridge for crossing the river<BR>
2. you force them to take it apart and *remove* it before they can<BR>
   replace it.<BR>
3. if the stream was navigable, you've blocked it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:18:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:40 AM -0800 5/16/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>And as you note, the colonists will have the "gravity gauge" in their<BR>
>>favor. Which makes pissing them off a *really* bad idea. Making them<BR>
>>think they are all going to die is liable to get them to do something<BR>
>>that will have everyone on Earth looking for the fools that planted the<BR>
>>bio-weapon.<BR>
><BR>
> A couple of surface to orbit missiles would take care of an orbital<BR>
> colony pretty easily. <BR>
<BR>
Only if the colony is unarmed. Otherwise it's *much* simpler to destroy<BR>
the missile on the way up.<BR>
<BR>
> If one threatened to bomb Earth with rocks<BR>
> dropped from orbit, public opinion would probably approve of nuking<BR>
> them into an orbiting gas cloud.  I certainly would vote for nuking<BR>
> any space colony which threatened to drop rocks on my head.  A plan<BR>
> to hit the moon with a nuclear missile was recently revealed.<BR>
<BR>
Nuking something below the Van Allen belts is a VERY BAD IDEA. That<BR>
sort of thing is how we learned about EMP. Also, you'll kill anybody<BR>
else in orbit. Lethal range for radaition from a nuke in vacuum is<BR>
thousands of miles. Or more.<BR>
<BR>
> Apparently this was possible in the sixties.  If you wanted to be<BR>
> sneaky, you'd launch nuclear missiles as "satellites" and let them<BR>
> approach silently before activating them.<BR>
<BR>
No such thing as "approaching silently". We routinely track *bolts* in<BR>
Earth orbit. Anything changing orbit without notifying whatever sort of<BR>
traffic control will exist by that time is going to be *assumed* to be<BR>
a weapon. *Especially* if it was "hiding" as a failed satellite or a<BR>
spent booster stage. Everyone who counts will *know* who it belongs to.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:28:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the<BR>
>> people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All<BR>
>> they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only<BR>
>> group with easy access to the moon.<BR>
><BR>
> When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets billionaire's<BR>
> terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and you're are enjoined from going<BR>
> to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
Check out Robert Asprin's "Cold Cash War" for one possible result of<BR>
such a situation. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:42:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There's no real difference between mercs under repatriation, and civilised<BR>
> rules of warfare for accepting surrender from the opposing side, except that<BR>
> with the mercs your government  gets _paid_ for keeping thenm alive as well.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the way I see it, given a choice, I'd *rather* accept the<BR>
surrender of a group of mercs than a bunch of "locals". The locals I<BR>
have to house and feed according to the relevant "Geneva Convention"<BR>
rules. The mercs I just get to turn over the the relevant authorities<BR>
who ship them off world.<BR>
<BR>
Guess which uses fewer resources?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:49:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 15 May 2000, Vincent P. Runci wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I always assumed that these reparation bonds work because the use of<BR>
>> mercenaries is fairly common in small planetary bushwars or "insurgencies".<BR>
>> Double-cross one of these merc units once and you'll get a reputation such<BR>
>> that no other unit will work for you, which could be a problem if your<BR>
>> opponents are still able to hire.  I have to admit, though, that it is<BR>
>> probably a rare merc commander who relies solely on reparation bonds and<BR>
>> does not have alternate "egress" plans ready.  There is always the chance<BR>
>> that a fundamentalist or populist leader might be willing to sacrifice a<BR>
>> merc unit for some short-term political gain.<BR>
><BR>
> <delurk><BR>
> This is very close to the story in David Drake's "The Forlorn Hope"<BR>
> (the same or very similar universe as his Hammer's Slammers stories).<BR>
><BR>
> The merc company works for the existing government of a small (Czech-<BR>
> colonized) planet which is fighting a religious insurgency (civil war <BR>
> I suppose really).  The government unit they're attached to is about to<BR>
> be overrun and sells out the merc unit to save their hides as the zealots <BR>
> really wanted to execute the offworlders* The merc unit escapes the <BR>
> initial entrapment and has to fight it's way across the continent to <BR>
> get to a safe government stronghold and offworld.<BR>
> (That's effectively the blurb on the book, so no spoilers.)<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
><BR>
> * In the first chapter, the mercs end up shooting down a starship making <BR>
> bombing runs with some kind of field artillery piece.  <BR>
> This of course PO'd the zealots to no end.<BR>
<BR>
They are so PO'ed because starships are ****EXPENSIVE****. And since<BR>
there was only one weapon on planet that *could* have made the shot, it<BR>
makes things much simpler than usual. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, even the US would be rather eager to "deal with" the folks who<BR>
blew away a several *billion* dollar ship/plane if it was *certain*<BR>
which (small group) had done it. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:47:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>There are a simpler explaination.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Item 1:<BR>
>><BR>
>>A religious dictatorship world can be assumed to have a high level of<BR>
>>'piety' amoung the citizens if for no other reason than to say out of<BR>
>>trouble.  Religious observances take time.  Time that could otherwise be<BR>
>>used for technological advances, research and production excetera.<BR>
>><BR>
>>A 40 hour work week becomes a 30 hour work week and a 10 hours worship<BR>
> week.<BR>
>>The boss can't complain without getting sentenced to (pardon, 'without him<BR>
>>having and intervention of') a year or so in a religious 'retreat'.<BR>
><BR>
> Possibly, but not quite. In a very general sense, all religions can be<BR>
> broken down into three broad components. The "mythos", which refers to the<BR>
> stories and narrative structure of the religion, the "logos" which refers to<BR>
> the intellectual underpinnings of a specific religion and the "cultus", or<BR>
> the body of practices of a specific religion. The only reason I mention this<BR>
> is that not all religions have a large showing in each category.<BR>
><BR>
> This is why such an explanation doesn't sit well with me. The Lutheran<BR>
> states of what is now known as Germany during the Reformation were renowned<BR>
> across Europe for two things: their devout piety and their work ethic. I<BR>
> don't think that this "fits" with the explanation given above.<BR>
<BR>
They don't qualify as "religious dictatorships" either.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:38:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Once they give up, they won't come back until this conflict<BR>
>> is resolved, so they are as good as dead.  They are better,<BR>
>> actually, because, as I said, they may be on the your side<BR>
>> next time.<BR>
><BR>
> Interesting. So a mercenary surrendering is some sort of legal contract.<BR>
> Maybe martial law applies to the soldier, but commercial law to the<BR>
> mercenary?<BR>
<BR>
It's part of whatever has replaced the Geneva Conventions. Basicly,<BR>
once they are a POW, you get to unload them on the repatriation<BR>
authority to ship them home. <BR>
<BR>
One nice touch from the Hammer's Slammers stories was that you could<BR>
"ransom" their more sustantial pieces of equipment (tanks, APCs,<BR>
artillery, etc) to them if they were a big enough outfit to *have* the<BR>
money to buy it back from you.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 05:26:42 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
I agree.  And its nice having all the books at hand.  Of course, I fret<BR>
less about loaning my original books out less two.<BR>
<BR>
adsr wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> FYI, you're right!  Good stuff.  I found one copy left at a store about 1<BR>
> hour from here.<BR>
> Can't wait for next edition!<BR>
> <BR>
> "Imperial Marines love to mud wrestle."<BR>
<BR>
The wife and I love the line.  Her pirate, Bette, will take any marine<BR>
up that contest.  <BR>
<BR>
"How can you recognize a female space pirate's ship?  It's the one with<BR>
the chrome marine cut-outs on the prow."<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
> <BR>
> Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:44:28 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
> Subject: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
><BR>
> Ok I got it, when the decision is made to "Send in the Marines"  What<BR>
> kind of force shows up?  A Corps, A Division, A Battalion?  I'm speaking<BR>
> in general terms not all out war.  Picture a planetary conflict that the<BR>
> Imperials have decided has gone too far and they are going to put a stop<BR>
> to it.  Do they show up with overwhelming force or a token force and<BR>
> dare anyone to mess with them?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is my view about how the Imperium would probably deal with such a<BR>
situation much of the time.<BR>
<BR>
For the war in question, we will assume that Important People in the 3I have<BR>
come to the conclusion that the USA and it's allies are waging a war in<BR>
Vietnam in such a way as to promote significant long term social and<BR>
economic damage.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium has a couple of issues to deal with.<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, they want to get what they want.<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, they dont want to go to too much trouble - get locals to do<BR>
anything that locals can do themselves, as long as we follow issue one.<BR>
<BR>
Thirdly, while Imperial resources are theoretically unlimited, they are<BR>
practically limited.<BR>
<BR>
The first thing I would do as the Imperial Representitive is to explain the<BR>
problem to whoever is the problem. I would suggest sending a representitive<BR>
of the Imperial Representitive to the parties in question to explain how the<BR>
Imperium feels about the situation.<BR>
<BR>
This may well not be appreciated by the locals, in which case our Marines<BR>
may need to set up the meeting (think being ever so polite in forcing down<BR>
Air Force One. Preferably in a completely deniable way).<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that the locals are not going to do what we, the Imperium, want,<BR>
then we need to get more assertive.<BR>
<BR>
An option at this point is to send in the Marines in to take out the<BR>
leadership of the recalcitrant state.<BR>
<BR>
This is, in my opinion, a bad option, because of the power vacuum this will<BR>
leave, which will make managing relations with the member world difficult.<BR>
<BR>
A better option would be to outline to the parties concerned a carefully<BR>
staged set of action-response decision points.<BR>
<BR>
The first of these would be to take a behaviours that the Imperium wants<BR>
limited, altered or stopped (for example, area bombing of industrial<BR>
targets, or unspotted<BR>
"harassment and interdiction" fire), and explain that there are Imperial<BR>
Marines in the field who are going to respond to such behaviour with<BR>
appropriate levels of force.<BR>
<BR>
This is a cue for a kitted-out Marine Fire Team to get ready to assault Fire<BR>
Base Charlie, after the said Fire Base starts sending out what the Imperial<BR>
Representitive believes to be unspotted H+I fire.<BR>
<BR>
Now, at this point the recalcitrant locals can either roll over and do what<BR>
the Imperium wants, or they can play "chicken" - the Imperium will take<BR>
weeks to months to get reinforcements, and if the small intial force of<BR>
Marines can be neutralised, then some time exists to create facts on the<BR>
ground.<BR>
<BR>
These facts on the ground may allow the recalcitrant power to agree to<BR>
Imperial demands later, after having crippled the other side in their war<BR>
(imagine for a second if the Allied bomber offensive against Germany in WW2<BR>
was stopped in January 1945 - not much change to the result of the war,<BR>
huh).<BR>
<BR>
The next stage involves peace enforcement - this will need more than a token<BR>
force. A fine line must be walked between making sure the behaviours that<BR>
triggered Imperial Intervention are stopped, and not escalating the<BR>
situation.<BR>
<BR>
An example of appropriate countermeasures would be enforcing 'no fly zones',<BR>
or interdicting the flow of supplies to the combat area.<BR>
<BR>
This stage may involve having to alter the composition of planetary<BR>
government. Whenever possible, the locals should do the dirty work - threats<BR>
of embargo, or of other unfavourable treatment may be more effective than<BR>
the plasma guns of a battallion of Imperial Marines. To go back to our<BR>
Vietnam scenario, an appropriate measure may be engineering the resignation<BR>
of Vice-President Hubert Humphrey for the anti-war Bobby Kennedy, and then<BR>
the resignation of President Johnson in favour of Kennedy. This will place a<BR>
friendlier government in charge, but without having to need to change either<BR>
the form or the structure of the local government. In the immortal words of<BR>
Napoleon "You can do everything with bayonets, except sit on them".<BR>
<BR>
The final stage is Imperial Occupation. This is pretty rare in Imperial<BR>
history, as far as I can tell. In this case, I believe Imperial doctrine<BR>
would be based on blockade, rather than direct landings - if nothing else,<BR>
the Imperium has time on it's side.<BR>
<BR>
Such a decision would not be taken lightly, and would involve many of the<BR>
important nobles in the sector or subsector, depending on the importance of<BR>
the world.<BR>
<BR>
I hope these suggestions are useful.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:14:32 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
> Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a "popular"<BR>
> drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature) for<BR>
> that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
<BR>
Science fiction...<BR>
<BR>
Double feature...<BR>
<BR>
Doctor X...<BR>
<BR>
Will build a creature...<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:21:06 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hmm...<BR>
><BR>
>A Pyrric Victory is a victory won at excessive cost so I'd still say it<BR>
>was a Pyrric Victory.  All the Marines who went in are dead except for<BR>
>one seriously WIA Cpl.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, they may have won the fight (courtesy of the atmosphere plant<BR>
>going atomic as opposed to by fire and maneuver) but no one is left to<BR>
>fight again another day.<BR>
<BR>
That's not a Phyrric Victory.<BR>
<BR>
The *squad* might be dead, but I suspect that the people who sent them<BR>
have enough troops to take these sort of losses forever (ie its probably<BR>
less than the recruitment rate)<BR>
<BR>
<destination OT><BR>
<BR>
Expending half of Starfleet to deal with one Borg cube, that's a phyrric<BR>
victory (especially if there are more Borg cubes coming)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, it ceases to be a Phyrric victory if Starfleet can increase<BR>
in size 20 fold over the next decade.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:42:19 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Hello Douglas,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
By paying to view this movie you support Scientology. That should be<BR>
reason enough not to see it.<BR>
Who knows whether there are subliminals or such stuff in it? May be<BR>
paranoid but the declared goal of this corporation-guised-as-religion<BR>
is world domination.<BR>
I'm happy our Secret Service monitors them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:47:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
> Trevor, you surprise me. Not least because of your opinion of<BR>
> Netscape, but also because there never _was_ a version 5 to run on<BR>
> _any_ platform. I suspect you are referring to one of the version 4<BR>
> releases which have their good points but are generally regarded as an<BR>
> unmitigated disaster as far as standards go and seriously over-bloated<BR>
> as software. As it stands, you are unlikely ever to see a Linux<BR>
> version of IE but can get the standard version of Netscape 6 Preview<BR>
> Release now. And why do I like it? Well, because it is _the_ browser<BR>
> to support Internet standards.<BR>
<BR>
Oops!  You're right: I have Netscape 4.7 on Linux.  Its very slow<BR>
to load pages off a local drive  compared  with  IE4/5  (on  same<BR>
machine with dual boot), has slow screen refresh, the buttons  on<BR>
the toolbar look like they were designed for use  with  monocrome<BR>
LCD screens, clicking on a link to a  WAV  file  crashes  it,  it<BR>
doesn't  recognise  the  FONT  tag,  it  doesn't  recognise   the<BR>
ALIGN=RIGHT or ALIGN=CENTER options for the P tag, and the  "view<BR>
source" menu item fires up a read-only screen (while IE fires  up<BR>
notepad ... making  it  ideal  for  amending/debugging  your  web<BR>
pages).  There may be more problems but I haven't been  using  it<BR>
for long ... I still have some Linux installation issues to  deal<BR>
with first (any Linux gurus in the London area want  to  spend  a<BR>
day hacking my system for beer money?).<BR>
<BR>
I did notice that IE4 is available for Sun UNIX and HP UNIX ... I<BR>
wonder how hard it would be to get one  of  these  working  under<BR>
Linux.<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, anyone visiting my Traveller site  (StuffOnline)<BR>
should use IE4/5 (with Bilanidin.ttf installed) to see the  pages<BR>
as they were intended.  With other browsers YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:57:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Penguin Boy croaked:<BR>
<BR>
> Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
> impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
> intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
> <BR>
> Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
> -- <BR>
Rita Kempley reviewed Battlefield: Earth for the Washington Post. It<BR>
made the front page of the Style section on Friday. I quote the first<BR>
two paragraphs verbatim:<BR>
<BR>
"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a<BR>
million years to create anything as cretinous as "Battlefield Earth."<BR>
This film version of L. Ron Hubbard's futuristic novel is so <BR>
breathtakingly awful in concept and execution, it wouldn't tax the<BR>
smarts of a troglodyte. And when it comes to star John Travolta's<BR>
performance, well hammy William Shatner's hairpiece is more<BR>
convincing.<BR>
<BR>
In the future, turkey cognoscenti will be heart to say: 'Ishtar,'<BR>
pishtar! You haven't endured pain till you've seen 'Battlefield<BR>
Earth.' "<BR>
<BR>
She then goes on at considerable length backing it up.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:58:46 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:02:47 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On 16 May 00, at 23:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They are so PO'ed because starships are ****EXPENSIVE****. And since<BR>
> there was only one weapon on planet that *could* have made the shot, it<BR>
> makes things much simpler than usual. <BR>
> <BR>
> Heck, even the US would be rather eager to "deal with" the folks who<BR>
> blew away a several *billion* dollar ship/plane if it was *certain*<BR>
> which (small group) had done it. <BR>
<BR>
Yep. Imagine the public outcry if the New Jersey was sunk by some band <BR>
of third worlders with a lucky hit. Never mind how many of them it had <BR>
blown away first, there'd be quite a number of people after their <BR>
blood.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:42:24 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: POW<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-16 17:51:44 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Captured Vilani *expect* to get shot. Hell, a POW camp might be the most<BR>
 alien thing they've encountered. >><BR>
<BR>
This was apparantly a common belief among Japanese POWs in WWII. They had <BR>
never been told to keep their mouth shut after capture, and they tended to <BR>
sing like canaries because they hadn't been told not to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:42:23 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Islands at low tide<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-16 13:37:59 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< From those fun guys at Christians In Action:<BR>
 <BR>
 http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/pg.html<BR>
 <BR>
 Evidently, several claiments now have listening stations clinging to<BR>
 "islands" that barely exist, except at low tide.  >><BR>
<BR>
Sounds like things haven't changed much since I wrote "Operation Crouching <BR>
Dragon" for Twilight: 2000.<BR>
<BR>
>*splort*  keyboard kill.  We used to watch "Red Dawn" as a comedy.<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2446<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Loonies (was re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
off line for a few days<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:06:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 16 May 2000, (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They are so PO'ed because starships are ****EXPENSIVE****. And since<BR>
> there was only one weapon on planet that *could* have made the shot, it<BR>
> makes things much simpler than usual. <BR>
 <BR>
> Heck, even the US would be rather eager to "deal with" the folks who<BR>
> blew away a several *billion* dollar ship/plane if it was *certain*<BR>
> which (small group) had done it. <BR>
<BR>
  I agree. (I hope I didn't somehow indicate otherwise - I was trying<BR>
to be funny in my first post on this list (wave of greeting). I'd hate to <BR>
get off to a bad start here.  Maybe I needed a smiley at the end.)<BR>
<BR>
  It seemed to me that the shooting down of the starship was only part <BR>
of the reason the dogmatic side wanted the mercs, the other being they <BR>
just didn't like offworlders interfering in their world's internal matters.<BR>
  <BR>
  They had little problem accepting the surrendered government forces <BR>
into their own ranks, under supervision and 're-education', because<BR>
they were locals (and not the leaders of the government side).  But<BR>
the offworlders were just so much threatening pond scum with valuable<BR>
and dangerous equipment.<BR>
<BR>
  It was also interesting how Mr.Drake described the rise of the use<BR>
of mercenaries coincided/required the rise of the interstellar <BR>
financial institutions that (among other things) acted as bond escrow <BR>
agents - to their mutual benefit.  The mercs had powerful escrow agents<BR>
and the banking houses grew to megacorp status.<BR>
<BR>
  Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
<BR>
  Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:23:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
> > One other possibility to consider: Religious dictatorships don't retard<BR>
> > technological development... Religious dictatorships are just more likely<BR>
> > on low-tech worlds. In other words, technology effects the government type<BR>
> > as much as government type effects technology.<BR>
> <BR>
> Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
> <BR>
> In Traveller Tech Level is generated after Government type.<BR>
> Therefore in Traveller the government must influence the<BR>
> Tech Level. If Tech Level influenced government type it would<BR>
> be generated before government type, not after. <g, d, r><BR>
> <BR>
Not necessarily. No one would say, for example, that hydrographic<BR>
percentage doesn't affect the atmosphere. Yet we roll for H2O<BR>
afterwards. And I'd expect tech level to affect starport type<BR>
as much, if not more, than starports affect tech.<BR>
<BR>
Plus the social science literature suggests that economic<BR>
development (a close stand in for tech level) has a lot more<BR>
effect on the government type than the reverse.<BR>
<BR>
(Sorry if I keep trotting out references to "the literature,"<BR>
but I *am* working on my dissertation these days, so it's<BR>
on my mind a lot...)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:33:20 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
> Plus the social science literature suggests that economic<BR>
> development (a close stand in for tech level) has a lot more<BR>
> effect on the government type than the reverse.<BR>
 <BR>
> (Sorry if I keep trotting out references to "the literature,"<BR>
> but I *am* working on my dissertation these days, so it's<BR>
> on my mind a lot...)<BR>
<BR>
> Matt<BR>
<BR>
Depending on what you have in mind, try "empirical data shows <BR>
that..." or "it can be proved in standard models that," or even <BR>
the wild card "it is a stylized fact that..." Works much better when <BR>
you present a paper in front of an academic audience...<g><BR>
<BR>
Carlos Alos-Ferrer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:46:55 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
> acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee swarm...who<BR>
> gets swatted?<BR>
<BR>
Sure. Maybe. Whatever. My point was just that the statement that "Their <BR>
exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or stronger" is not, in<BR>
fact, true. <BR>
<BR>
It goes without saying that in YTU, truth is whatever you want it to be.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:07:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Loonies (was re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets <BR>
>billionaire's terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and <BR>
>you're are enjoined from going to the moon.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, it goes without saying that the billionaire<BR>
in question would have to plan for this eventuality.<BR>
<BR>
1. The UN can't freeze what it can't lay hands on.<BR>
Every asset must be brought along, converted to useful<BR>
things that can be brought along, or traded for the<BR>
goodwill (secret or public) of the proper Important<BR>
People on Earth before the billionaire makes his<BR>
nationbuilding public.  The billionaire must also<BR>
arrange to leave with his or her associates before<BR>
the UN knows they are going, or at least before the<BR>
UN can effectively act.<BR>
<BR>
The billionaire might not be a billionaire afterwards,<BR>
in the usual sense of the word...though he'll be<BR>
in charge of some pretty valuable stuff.  If things<BR>
go right, he or she might end up thinking of a couple <BR>
billion US dollars worth of terrestrial assets lost as <BR>
spare change.<BR>
<BR>
2. "Enjoined from going" - again, the billionaire<BR>
club needs to be gone before the UN acts.  We now have<BR>
the question, "how do more people get to go afterwards?"<BR>
<BR>
For some reason, I can't imagine the Loonies managing<BR>
a stealth landing on Earth of a transport shuttle.<BR>
There would have to be something the Loonies could<BR>
offer a 1st or 2nd world country that would be worth<BR>
the disapproval of the UN, so that said country <BR>
would trade Earth access for Lunar resources.  <BR>
I say 1st or 2nd world country, since the country<BR>
would need to be big enough to be a difficult target<BR>
for the UN Security Council.<BR>
<BR>
Should a country make such a deal with the Loonies,<BR>
I think the UN would come around.  Yes, any landing<BR>
vehicle would be very vulnerable - but would the<BR>
UN approve military action against the effectively<BR>
helpless crew of a landing space shuttle?  I think<BR>
public opinion would make shooting down such craft<BR>
unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
Get on the moon, start making people on Earth rich,<BR>
spin it properly, and you'll be set.  Important People<BR>
will get sufficient combinations of stars in their<BR>
eyes and money in their pockets, the UN will either<BR>
adapt or become irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
I hope.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:24:39 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> influenced by ancient Rome. So where the hell are the gladiators? I mean,<BR>
> the sheer variety of habitats in the Imperium is staggering and would offer<BR>
> many innovative settings for brutal gladiatorial violence and bloodthirsty<BR>
> crowds cheering. Okay, yeah, it's certainly true that the Imperium outlaws<BR>
> chattel slavery, but I'm sure that an inventive GM could come up with a way<BR>
> around *that*. I can see it now: zero-G trained gladiators brawling, to the<BR>
> death, in the center of lazily spinning orbital colonies. Gladiators<BR>
> fighting on airless worlds, avoiding fatal cuts and punctures to their<BR>
> spacesuits. Gladiators can fight anywhere, anytime and come to think of it,<BR>
> a gladiator campaign could be entertaining, which is why I say:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Merargakur khi daririr danima!"[2]<BR>
> <BR>
> [2] "We, who are about to die, salute you!"<BR>
<BR>
Per the Dumarest books, there are arenas on many worlds, and<BR>
travellers who end up penniless on one of these worlds will<BR>
often as not be sold into "gladiator"-like servitude in order<BR>
to amuse the jaded masses with violent bloodshed.  In Dumarest's<BR>
case, there seems to be no real Imperial government, so the<BR>
worlds build arenas (arenae?) as they like.  But in the 3I,<BR>
where I believe slavery is outlawed (? Is that right ?), the<BR>
gladiators would have to be managed like a sports team, eh?<BR>
<BR>
"Meet Big Eneri Ekalaakar and his Stainless Steel Swashbucklers<BR>
from Strouden!  They're here to kill themselves a few of <BR>
Raanaguun's Raiders of Regina tonight, and boy will it be nasty!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:42:24 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
What kind of risks and rewards would you like to see<BR>
for Traveller On-Line?  <BR>
<BR>
What blue-sky ideas would make the game enjoyable for<BR>
you?<BR>
<BR>
What enhancements of a non-graphical nature would you<BR>
like to see?  (These are more likely to be implemented).<BR>
<BR>
And, just for grins, what enhancements of a graphical<BR>
nature would you like to see?  Graphical navigation?<BR>
Tactical starship combat?  An actual character wandering<BR>
around the starport or startown?  (These are least <BR>
likely to be implemented).<BR>
<BR>
The idea I'm using as a general guideline for this<BR>
game is Tradewars 2000.  That game was addictive.<BR>
It also had a good compromise for starship combat:<BR>
one actor, the rest defensive, but only one login<BR>
at a time (a restriction we don't have).  So how to<BR>
do combat between two sides?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:25:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
All this  talk  about  the  affects  of  Religious  Dictatorships<BR>
retarding TL has focused on the "Religious" aspect and  forgotten<BR>
the "Dictatorship" part.  I think many of  our  perceptions  have<BR>
been coloured by western  history  where  there  have  been  many<BR>
clashes between organised religion and science.  But TL is  *not*<BR>
scientific knowledge: the low tech Imperial  backwater  world  is<BR>
well aware of other planets, societies and races  ...  they  just<BR>
can't  *locally*  produce  high  tech  goods.   The  problem  for<BR>
religion and science in  our  past  has  been  that  science  has<BR>
questioned aspects of organised religion's  world-view  and  thus<BR>
was preceived as undermining its credability and  authority.  You<BR>
should think of low tech Imperial worlds  as  being  like  third-<BR>
world contries today.  I doubt you'd find  many  missionaries  in<BR>
these countries  preaching  anti-technology  sentiment  (anti-big<BR>
business maybe, but not anti-technology).  The exception to  this<BR>
are worlds not in contact with the interstellar  community  (such<BR>
as pre-First Contact races, and  degenerate  lost  colonies)  ...<BR>
within the Imperium they are almost certainly Red Zones.<BR>
<BR>
The types of governments that are anti-technology are the  ultra-<BR>
authoritarian ones.  They would see *any* changes as  potentially<BR>
threatening to their hold over the populous.  The exception would<BR>
be military technology (which increases their power) and possibly<BR>
some large-scale industrial technology), but civilian  technology<BR>
would  be   carefully   regulated   and   proscribed.   Religious<BR>
Dictatorships are  usually  very  authoritarian  and  thus  would<BR>
impede non-military technology improvements ...  other  types  of<BR>
dictatorship would be just the same.<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr0.02 worth.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:47:28 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Traveller:  Given that the Third Imperium has become basically<BR>
static, it also has an interest in stable and secure borders.  With<BR>
Aslan on one, Vargr on a second, K'kree near another, and Nazis in<BR>
space agitating on a fourth what kind of games does the 3I play?<BR>
Can you imagine them doing secret deals with the Aslan to supply<BR>
guerrilla groups in Sollie space?<<BR>
<BR>
I meant to bring this up before but kept forgetting...<BR>
While the Solomani do have those fun Nazi ideas on race, their government is<BR>
an almost exact mirror of the old Soviet Union. The three sided mix of<BR>
Party, Army and State Security was what kept them from multiple coups every<BR>
few years and what allowed them constant purges. The only thing missing is<BR>
any note of those purges affecting SolSec which is rather odd as the Soviets<BR>
did so regularly.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
Using the phrase "old Soviet Union" sure makes me feel old...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:10:32 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Jessie and I are working on the Patinir system, he has just been a little busy as of late, as have I since I work at eBay.  We are hoping to have something up in the next month.  Its good to see that people are still intrested in the Land Grab.<BR>
<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
I'll be out of town and probably away from a computer for<BR>
several days, so I'd appreciate it if you all would try not<BR>
to write too much so that I don't have a big backlog of<BR>
digests when I get back.  Otherwise I won't get any work<BR>
done on Monday.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:29:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
At 12:58 PM 5/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
>only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
>still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
I've been a bit busy with GF, after 6/15 I'll have more time.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:38:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 11:19 PM 5/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Also, didn't it seem to you that Apone & Hicks had been working together<BR>
>for a long (3+ years) time together?  When the Marines woke up, on the<BR>
>loading bay, in the briefing, etc, etc, etc.  It seemed to me as if Hick &<BR>
>Apone were working hand in glove.  I.e. they knew what the other was going<BR>
>to do, before he did it.<BR>
<BR>
The squad, less Gorman, seemed to have a good working relationship.  The<BR>
disgust in Apone's voice when he says "somebody wake up Hicks" shows that<BR>
the good Corporal is the type who will fall asleep whenever he can.  Good<BR>
troopie habit, in my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
Vasquez and the other gunner also seemed to be quite in tune with each<BR>
other, down to knowing that Vasquez would have extra "gun-thingies" to<BR>
enable their weapons.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:44:19<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 10:57 PM 5/16/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>On 05/16/00 at 07:54 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
said:<BR>
><BR>
>>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
>>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
>>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
>>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
><BR>
>Not funny?<BR>
><BR>
>I fully expected it to be awful, but I was hoping it would be soooo bad it<BR>
would be a gut buster of a different sort.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I was hoping for also, but instead... folks, Ed Wood would walk<BR>
out of this turkey.  It is utterly awful.  Yes, there are a few giggles,<BR>
but the overall effect is like a gut punch to your sensibilities.<BR>
<BR>
This is a spoiler, so if you ever plan on seeing this pile of K'Kree<BR>
droppings, don't read the next bit.<BR>
<BR>
This movie takes place in 3000 AD, right?  All around are the rusting<BR>
remains of our culture, destroyed by the Psyclos, who evidently never heard<BR>
of asteroid mining.  So what do we use to fight back?  Harrier jump jets<BR>
that have been sitting around for the entire millennium, and are in perfect<BR>
working order!  Crewed by cavemen with a week's training!  ID4 was more<BR>
believable!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:46:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:23 PM 5/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Btw, Doug, do you mind if I use Penguin Boy/Douglas Berry in a V&V game<BR>
>I am working on?<BR>
<BR>
This one I have to see.  Send me the write up when you're done.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:47:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:31 PM 5/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: tim@premier.net <tim@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
><< The next question is how many Marines would it take to take out his<BR>
>intestines, and their colony now in the theather. >><BR>
><BR>
>    Not many, just show the Rocky Horror Picture Show there at Midnight an<BR>
>Friday & Saturday nights & they will be happy.<BR>
<BR>
Only if they get to play Eddie.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:48:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 07:40 PM 5/17/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Is this something to do with LRon's "masterwork" or that cheesy 1970's one<BR>
>with the zap gun in the middle of the desert ?<BR>
<BR>
LRon's book.  Produced and "starring" John Travolta, uber-Scientologist.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:50:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 01:42 PM 5/17/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>By paying to view this movie you support Scientology. That should be<BR>
>reason enough not to see it.<BR>
<BR>
by seeing any movie with Travolota, or any other Hollyweird Scientologist<BR>
you indirectly support the church.  <BR>
<BR>
>Who knows whether there are subliminals or such stuff in it? May be<BR>
>paranoid but the declared goal of this corporation-guised-as-religion<BR>
>is world domination.<BR>
<BR>
The subliminal message in this movie?  "Yor: Hunter From the Future" wasn't<BR>
that bad afterall.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:50:36 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: 3-D Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > > If there is on average 1 system per 16 cubic parsecs and<BR>
> > > a typical Traveller hex has a 50% chance of having a<BR>
> > > star then perhaps a hex has a volume about 8 cubic parsecs.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Or perhaps we consider that average stellar density around Sol is lower<BR>
> > than 50% even in Traveller canon.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not according to Solomani Rim its not.<BR>
<BR>
Well, in Sol subsector, there are about 19 systems. That's only about<BR>
25%.<BR>
 <BR>
[snip] <BR>
> I'm not suggesting that the stars themselves are layered, I'm<BR>
> suggesting that jump space is layered. How do you know that<BR>
> jump space is not arranged in layers?<BR>
> <BR>
> I am suggesting that jump space is like a bunch of phonographic<BR>
> records stacked one on top of another. You can walk across<BR>
> (jump in) each layer or you can walk between layers. However walking<BR>
> between records is harder (requires a higher jump number)<BR>
> <BR>
> > (And did I mention that I like most that Freelance Traveller Jump Space<BR>
> > Physics Explanation? I did? Good. :-)  This is just to say that if you<BR>
> > want to stick with the 2D maps,<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes I want to stick with the 2D maps all else would be heresy.<BR>
<BR>
It's a pity you haven't commented on the theory presented in Freelance<BR>
Traveller... I really like that one! ;-)<BR>
 <BR>
> > the necessary work for a more realistic<BR>
> > "starchart feel" has already been done. )<BR>
<BR>
> > And, by the way, for two rivaling interstellar empires, it would still<BR>
> > be cheaper to expand to another "layer" than reaching out too far from<BR>
> > the centre, even if they have to build special ships or special<BR>
> > infrastructure. Again, YMMV.<BR>
> <BR>
> That depends on their tech level.  Getting across a Jump 8 rift<BR>
> with a Jump 2 drive is hard. <BR>
<BR>
Which means you prefer to penalize deep space jumps. So do I, by the<BR>
way.<BR>
<BR>
> Jump 2 is the best the Vilani had and<BR>
> they were not noted for being innovative. Therefore it is quite<BR>
> possible that the First Empire was only in one layer.<BR>
<BR>
If the penalty for changing the layer was high enough, that is.<BR>
<BR>
> Therefore<BR>
> when the Terran's conquered the Empire the Second Empire was<BR>
> also only one layer high. Given that their resources were<BR>
> stretched painfully thin at first it seems unlikely that they<BR>
> would have explored other layers. Then came the Long Night and<BR>
> most long distance space travel, much less travel to unknown<BR>
> areas, stopped. Therefore exploration of other layers is unlikely<BR>
> before the Third Imperium. Given that exploring other layers<BR>
> is harder than exploring the primary layer it seems to me that<BR>
> the Imperium would not have done so to any great while they could<BR>
> still explore normally along an unbounded frontier. The Imperium<BR>
> only lost its last frontier when the Solomani Sphere separated<BR>
> from the Imperium. Therefore Imperial exploration of other layers<BR>
> would only be common in the last century or three.<BR>
<BR>
You forget that from Capital, it is much faster to reach another layer<BR>
than to reach the Spinward Marches. That is what I meant with "cheaper"-<BR>
faster.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
 <BR>
> Traveller canon states that "nowhere beyond Charted Space has<BR>
> intelligence produced the jump drive that makes interstellar<BR>
> travel possible" [MT Ref Man p. 7] so races from other layers<BR>
> won't be able to travel to our layer. Although if misjumps can<BR>
> take you between layers then logically jump capable cultures should<BR>
> have built up in nearby layers....<BR>
<BR>
But none of these are mentioned, so this theory is not as capable at<BR>
supporting established canon than others. (BTW, there is one article in<BR>
FT... :-) )<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:19:54 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
All you need to do is look at the islamic countries in the middle east,<BR>
especially Saudi Arabia.  Prayer disrupts the work day up to 3 times per<BR>
day.  During the religious holidays (Haj & Rahmadan) most people<BR>
celebrate well into the AM and come to work for only a half day.<BR>
<BR>
>>A religious dictatorship world can be assumed to have a high level of<BR>
>>'piety' amoung the citizens if for no other reason than to say out of<BR>
>>trouble.  Religious observances take time.  Time that could otherwise<BR>
be<BR>
>>used for technological advances, research and production excetera.<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:32:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
>> This is why such an explanation doesn't sit well with me. The Lutheran<BR>
>> states of what is now known as Germany during the Reformation were<BR>
renowned<BR>
>> across Europe for two things: their devout piety and their work ethic. I<BR>
>> don't think that this "fits" with the explanation given above.<BR>
><BR>
>They don't qualify as "religious dictatorships" either.<BR>
<BR>
No they don't. Where did I say that they do? Charles theorized that the<BR>
piety of the people in a religious dictatorship would draw them away from<BR>
work. I pointed out that some of the people most renowned for piety were<BR>
also renowned for their work ethic. Hence, his explanation doesn't sit well<BR>
with me.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:31:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
> > (Sorry if I keep trotting out references to "the literature,"<BR>
> > but I *am* working on my dissertation these days, so it's<BR>
> > on my mind a lot...)<BR>
> <BR>
> Depending on what you have in mind, try "empirical data shows <BR>
> that..." or "it can be proved in standard models that," or even <BR>
> the wild card "it is a stylized fact that..." Works much better when <BR>
> you present a paper in front of an academic audience...<g><BR>
<BR>
True! And to be sure to add "more research needs to be done"<BR>
at the end. (Possibly appending, "Can I have my degree now?")<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:40:23 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
> What kind of risks and rewards would you like to see<BR>
> for Traveller On-Line?  <BR>
> <BR>
Some random ship encounters just to make things interesting.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> What blue-sky ideas would make the game enjoyable for<BR>
> you?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Space port and city adventures<BR>
<BR>
> What enhancements of a non-graphical nature would you<BR>
> like to see?  (These are more likely to be implemented).<BR>
<BR>
A player and PC bulletine board system<BR>
<BR>
A way to use MiRc, I like this better then IRCQ<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> And, just for grins, what enhancements of a graphical<BR>
> nature would you like to see?  Graphical navigation?<BR>
> Tactical starship combat?  An actual character wandering<BR>
> around the starport or startown?  (These are least <BR>
> likely to be implemented).<BR>
> <BR>
A GUI starship controls for the players.  If you want the players to <BR>
crew on the same ship this would be cool.  You asked for dreams.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The idea I'm using as a general guideline for this<BR>
> game is Tradewars 2000.  That game was addictive.<BR>
> It also had a good compromise for starship combat:<BR>
> one actor, the rest defensive, but only one login<BR>
> at a time (a restriction we don't have).  So how to<BR>
> do combat between two sides?<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:37:04 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
First of all, having lost my bookmarks file, I would like to get the URL<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
> What kind of risks and rewards would you like to see<BR>
> for Traveller On-Line?<BR>
<BR>
Getting stranded in an empty hex without enough fuel to leave. This<BR>
should kill the character.<BR>
<BR>
Misjumps. The most probable misjump destinations should be hexes with<BR>
planets, since too many would die otherwise. A good way to determine<BR>
misjump destination is to randomize the destination between all the<BR>
hexes within a range (possibly determined by the severity of the<BR>
misjump, as well as by the power of jump drive). In case the destination<BR>
is an empty hex, reroll (a maximum number of rerolls should be used,<BR>
perhaps 3).<BR>
<BR>
> What enhancements of a non-graphical nature would you<BR>
> like to see?  (These are more likely to be implemented).<BR>
<BR>
As I have said before, black text on the jump-selection buttons. The<BR>
current gray is the same color as the default button/dropdown box color<BR>
in Linux Netscape, making the text impossible to read for me.<BR>
<BR>
By default, remove the empty hexes from the destination selection box.<BR>
However, include a checkbox that if enabled includes the empty hexes in<BR>
the list.<BR>
<BR>
Gas giant refuling.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2446<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2447</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2447<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
TOL Comments/TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
Traveller On-Line bug<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:54:04 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
I am working on mine  just got done with finals and projects.  Trying to find how useful H&E is for me. I also discovered<BR>
some errors in  my right up, that I have fix.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds 0608 6588C7<BR>
IMTU c+  t4  gt !tt  !tn  ?mt  ru  ge 3I - c+  -jt+  au+  st  ls  pi+  ta-  he+  kk++  hi  as  va  dr  ith  ne     <BR>
 so  zh-  vi  da-  sy++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:46:29 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 17 May 2000, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> First of all, having lost my bookmarks file, I would like to get the URL<BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
http://24.21.162.74/tol.html<BR>
<BR>
> As I have said before, black text on the jump-selection buttons. The<BR>
> current gray is the same color as the default button/dropdown box color<BR>
> in Linux Netscape, making the text impossible to read for me.<BR>
<BR>
I'm looking at the site now, and that appears to have been done already.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:46pm up 10 days, 23:48, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.12, 0.13<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:04:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've been distracted by buying a house and being ill. But, I left H&E<BR>
running this morning to generation system info and such for me. Hopefully in<BR>
the next couple of weeks, depending on how work goes.<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
If you hold a Unix shell up to your ear, can you hear the C?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Trevor,<BR>
> Peter<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:59 AM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:42:54 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>CT Reprint (New)<BR>
<BR>
How much does it cost?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Missions of State<BR>
<BR>
This was actually produced? I NEVER saw it in the stores.<BR>
Can anyone give a review of this product, was it any good?<BR>
Was it a BITS/CORE product, or selfmade IG?<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:49:03 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:54 17.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
>UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
You are forgetting about the other UN Headquarters, the one over here, in <BR>
Europe. In Geneve, if i am not mistaken.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:54:48 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
At 13:58 17.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
>only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
>still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Still busy with it, but moving slowly due to real-life constraints.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:47:41 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
I too will get to it soon....<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:55:32 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: TOL Comments/TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
You know it had to happen. :-)<BR>
"You appear to be in an empty hex (2404).  How curious!"<BR>
Please get me out of here!!!<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I could landgrab empty hex (2404).<BR>
That would be an easy enough SWA to do.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
So many scout ships, so many Causalty and Loss Forms.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:00:51 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line: risks and rewards<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
<black text in dropdown box><BR>
> I'm looking at the site now, and that appears to have been done already.<BR>
<BR>
It most certainly has... at least in the dropdown box, but that's good<BR>
enough for me.<BR>
<BR>
*jump jump jump*<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:05:12 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
At 2:55 PM -0600 5/2/00, Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
>  > 2. Why did the Vilani need to practice jump dimming since the energy for<BR>
>the<BR>
>  > jump came from a capacitor bank?<BR>
>  >Well, that was IMHO a relic from the *very* early days of Vilani jump<BR>
>drive use; the first six or so vessels didn't use capacitor banks (fewer<BR>
>parts in a ship, so fewer parts that can fail). And later on, it had<BR>
>become a ...You guessed it.<BR>
>A tradition.><BR>
><BR>
>Maybe only the greater portion of the energy for a jump came from a<BR>
>capacitor - the power plant still acted to provide some portion of the power<BR>
>for the jump.  A ship could presumably be designed this way - since you<BR>
>don't need the thrusters or weapons powered when you go to jump, you could<BR>
>save a lot of space on jump capacitors by having the plant provide the power<BR>
>that would normally go to such systems to the j-drive.<BR>
<BR>
It is also possible that the energy for jump comes from whatever<BR>
you use to power the jump, but that there a regulating and controlling<BR>
mechanism that are independantly powered.<BR>
<BR>
It is also possible that this whole tradition on jump dimming started<BR>
from an erroneous belief that it made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:08:30 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line bug<BR>
<BR>
How about not having to pay for ship mortgage when all the mortgage is<BR>
paid off? Wouldn't that be a neat feature?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:33:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
>> acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee <BR>
> swarm...who<BR>
>> gets swatted?<BR>
><BR>
> Sure. Maybe. Whatever. My point was just that the statement that "Their <BR>
> exoskeleton is at least as strong as steel or stronger" is not, in<BR>
> fact, true. <BR>
<BR>
It may well *be* true. But so what? it *still* crushes easily because<BR>
it's so *thin*.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, *bone* is stronger than steel. It's a *very* high strength<BR>
composite material. It gets kinda brittle when it dries out though.<BR>
<BR>
But that fact is *why* joint replacements are so hard to make. There's<BR>
no *room* to use more material, not if you want to keep the full range<BR>
of motion. So you wind up with a *weaker* joint.<BR>
<BR>
If you want proof that bone is stronger than steel, get someone who is<BR>
fairly strong to try bending a pair of steel rods the size of the bones<BR>
in his forearms. If he's strong enough, it won't be all that hard...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:31:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I seem to recall that the World Court found the US guilty of war<BR>
> crimes (or something like that) in relation to our involvement in<BR>
> the Vietnam conflict back in 69 or 70.  Whether that court decision<BR>
> was morally or legally correct, it had little or no effect on the<BR>
> US's prosecution of that war.  Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
> the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
> many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
<BR>
The US quit paying attention to World Court decisions back when several<BR>
tribes of Native Americans won cases against the US for violating<BR>
treaties with them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:09:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Per the Dumarest books, there are arenas on many worlds, and<BR>
> travellers who end up penniless on one of these worlds will<BR>
> often as not be sold into "gladiator"-like servitude in order<BR>
> to amuse the jaded masses with violent bloodshed.  In Dumarest's<BR>
> case, there seems to be no real Imperial government, so the<BR>
> worlds build arenas (arenae?) as they like.  But in the 3I,<BR>
> where I believe slavery is outlawed (? Is that right ?), the<BR>
> gladiators would have to be managed like a sports team, eh?<BR>
><BR>
> "Meet Big Eneri Ekalaakar and his Stainless Steel Swashbucklers<BR>
> from Strouden!  They're here to kill themselves a few of <BR>
> Raanaguun's Raiders of Regina tonight, and boy will it be nasty!"<BR>
<BR>
Heck, on some worlds it may have gotten started when a promoter got a<BR>
bright idea and got the authorities to agree. The local gangs got told<BR>
that they can fight each other without police interference, as long as<BR>
they do it in the old sports stadium and let the promoter televise it.<BR>
<BR>
This gets the innocent bystanders out of the way, and lets the cops<BR>
concentrate on other things. <BR>
<BR>
Soon enough there will be betting on the fights, with a prize purse for<BR>
the winners. Then you add some single combat (our champion against<BR>
yours), and away it goes. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:58:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> You could use prisoners that have been condemned to death or long<BR>
> imprisonment. They would be given a choice:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Fight in the arena. Freedom after x number of games.<BR>
> 2. Serve out your sentence.<BR>
><BR>
> It is rather easy to get convicts to fight and kill each other.<BR>
> Winners could be resettled on another planet. Can't have them walking<BR>
> around in *normal* society.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, if they've developed any kind of "reputation" or following, they<BR>
can stay on as *paid* gladiators. Take a look at the sort of "purse"<BR>
that a big boxing match draws. For that kind of money people *will*<BR>
risk their lives.<BR>
<BR>
That's why I expect there to be a lot of *volunteers*. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, start it out as man versus beast type fights. Either where there<BR>
aren't any "anti-cruelty" laws, or where there's an exemption of some<BR>
sort. (The SCA can't do jousting because the ASPCA is a fraid we might<BR>
hurt the *horses*, never mind that the riders are facing more danger...<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Also, if duelling is legal, then a gladitorial contest would be also. <BR>
<BR>
So it won't *all* be condemned prisoners. Expect that a lot of pro<BR>
gladiators will be from "slum" areas. Because from there it looks like<BR>
a way out. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:53:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> This is why such an explanation doesn't sit well with me. The Lutheran<BR>
>>> states of what is now known as Germany during the Reformation were<BR>
> renowned<BR>
>>> across Europe for two things: their devout piety and their work ethic. I<BR>
>>> don't think that this "fits" with the explanation given above.<BR>
>><BR>
>>They don't qualify as "religious dictatorships" either.<BR>
><BR>
> No they don't. Where did I say that they do? Charles theorized that the<BR>
> piety of the people in a religious dictatorship would draw them away from<BR>
> work. I pointed out that some of the people most renowned for piety were<BR>
> also renowned for their work ethic. Hence, his explanation doesn't sit well<BR>
> with me.<BR>
<BR>
And I was pointing out that they *weren't* living in a religious<BR>
dictatorship. That changes things *considerably*. Religious observances<BR>
become *mandatory*, and are *frequent*. <BR>
<BR>
"Piety" *differs* in the two cultural matrixes. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:45:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> influenced by ancient Rome. So where the hell are the gladiators? I mean,<BR>
> the sheer variety of habitats in the Imperium is staggering and would offer<BR>
> many innovative settings for brutal gladiatorial violence and bloodthirsty<BR>
> crowds cheering. Okay, yeah, it's certainly true that the Imperium outlaws<BR>
> chattel slavery, but I'm sure that an inventive GM could come up with a way<BR>
> around *that*.<BR>
<BR>
There's a quite *simple* one. Use condemned criminals, and volunteers.<BR>
Hell, that's essentially how the Roman games *started*.<BR>
<BR>
And trust me, for the sort of money and fame that could be involved,<BR>
you *would* get volunteers.<BR>
<BR>
And having "condemned to the games" as a sentencing option could make<BR>
even hardened criminals think twice about whatever crime was involved.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:11:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Kdaniel <kdaniel@chuma.cas.usf.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> If you want proof that bone is stronger than steel, get someone who is<BR>
> fairly strong to try bending a pair of steel rods the size of the bones<BR>
> in his forearms. If he's strong enough, it won't be all that hard...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Are these hollow or solid rods?  Also I suppose anyone who is "strong<BR>
enough" could bend whatever you hand them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:24:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
> If you want proof that bone is stronger than steel, get someone who is<BR>
> fairly strong to try bending a pair of steel rods the size of the bones<BR>
> in his forearms. If he's strong enough, it won't be all that hard...<BR>
<BR>
Now here would be a good trick which might appear on stage at the Secrets of<BR>
the Ancients resort and casino: high-TL grav-enhanced strength tricks. Maybe<BR>
you can get some really interesting sideshows by playing with gravatics in<BR>
other ways.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:30:56 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 01:34 PM 5/17/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
> >>If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
> >>impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
> >>intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Help!  Help!  I'm getting into an off topic discussion! ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a Scientologist, but I did read Battlefield Earth.  It was a decent <BR>
novel.  Well... at least the first half of it was.  From what I have heard <BR>
about Travolta's latest version, I can wait till video.<BR>
<BR>
I also never read Hubbard's ghostwritten ten volume Mission Earth series, <BR>
but the few friends of mine that tried regretted that decision for the rest <BR>
of their lives.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>This is a spoiler, so if you ever plan on seeing this pile of K'Kree<BR>
>droppings, don't read the next bit.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
S<BR>
<BR>
P<BR>
<BR>
O<BR>
<BR>
I<BR>
<BR>
L<BR>
<BR>
E<BR>
<BR>
R<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>This movie takes place in 3000 AD, right?  All around are the rusting<BR>
>remains of our culture, destroyed by the Psyclos, who evidently never heard<BR>
>of asteroid mining.  So what do we use to fight back?  Harrier jump jets<BR>
>that have been sitting around for the entire millennium, and are in perfect<BR>
>working order!  Crewed by cavemen with a week's training!<BR>
<BR>
I recall that the Psychlos used some sort of "Learning Device" to give <BR>
their slaves specific skills.  The lead Psychlo trained the human character <BR>
with too many useful skills and allowed him to know exactly what happened <BR>
to Earth.  The human stole the device used it a few more times on himself <BR>
and his cavemen buddies.   The end result was that the cavemen gained the <BR>
skills to launch a sneak attack against the Psychlos.<BR>
<BR>
I also remember that the "sneak attack" was nothing more than putting <BR>
nuclear weapons on the teleport platform and sending it back to the "home <BR>
office".  I must have blocked out the bit with the jets. :)<BR>
<BR>
My opinion of the book was that is was SciFi filler.  It was a decent read <BR>
until Johnny Goodboy teleported the nuclear weapons off the Earth.  After <BR>
that point, which was half way in the book, the plot became suspended in <BR>
time.  The story was building up and just stopped until the very last part <BR>
of the book.  Eventually, the book resolves what happened to the Psychlos, <BR>
but few people that I know made it that far.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>ID4 was more believable!<BR>
<BR>
Let me guess... you have a Mac laptop? ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OB Trav:  What tech would a "Learning Device" be?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:52:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >ID4 was more believable!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Hey, Independence Day was a movie with a great message: even if you're<BR>
aliens with very advanced technology, don't screw with the U.S., or we'll<BR>
kick your butts. What's not believable about that?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:03:45 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
> > the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
> > many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
><BR>
> The US quit paying attention to World Court decisions back when several<BR>
> tribes of Native Americans won cases against the US for violating<BR>
> treaties with them.<BR>
<BR>
Not exactly.  The US challenged the WC's jurisdiction, and failing<BR>
that, chose not to appear.  So, the US doesn't consider the in abstentia<BR>
proceedings valid.<BR>
<BR>
When the US doesn't challenge the WC jurisdiction, it participates.<BR>
It wasn't long ago that you could watch a US Marine JAG lawyer<BR>
prosecute some Serbs for war crimes in the recently created<BR>
permanent criminal court, a part of the World Court.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:05:05 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Check out Robert Asprin's "Cold Cash War" for one possible result of<BR>
> such a situation.<BR>
<BR>
Do you really mean "possible"?  I hope not.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:08:36 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >US's prosecution of that war.  Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
> >the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
> >many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
><BR>
>   Yes, but economic & other warfare against Nicaragua was necessary<BR>
> to protect the US South-West, IIRC :|<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think the Charter of the Organization of American States<BR>
is a much more plausible legal support for such action, but most<BR>
Americans have never heard of the thing, and its doubtful any<BR>
politician would want to explain it to them.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:18:45 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/16/00 at 04:36 PM,  "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> > The situation becomes even easier if some nutty billionaire got the<BR>
> >> > people and equipment to set up their own nation on the moon.  All<BR>
> >> > they would likely need is 5 or 10 years when this was the only<BR>
> >> > group with easy access to the moon.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> When WHAM!  The UN, and its member states, gets billionaire's<BR>
> >> terrestrial assets frozen, sealed and you're are enjoined from going<BR>
> >> to the moon.<BR>
><BR>
> >And then who gets to lob big rocks at whom?<BR>
><BR>
> No, no!  Billionaire doesn't want to throw big rocks.  Doesn't have<BR>
> to throw big rocks, he's got big bucks to throw.  I'm sure he would<BR>
> have to grease palms here and there, but that's the nature of any<BR>
> business in some parts of the world.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The UN and its member states?  Nah!<BR>
<BR>
Gee, I have to start footnoting everything I say.<BR>
I was trying to keep it generalized.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, the UN _is_ its member states.  It can only<BR>
act through them (ok, and their voluntary funding<BR>
of its organizations).  And its doubtful any state<BR>
will pursue a UN policy that is contrary to its own.<BR>
<BR>
Happy now?  :-P<BR>
<BR>
> The thoughts of the member states matter, but don't deal with a<BR>
> Lunar colony except peripherally.  If some state is going to<BR>
> impound/nationalize Billionaire Bill's assets then they are going to<BR>
> do it for selfish reasons that have little to do with "the common<BR>
> heritge of mankind."<BR>
<BR>
Their intentions are irrelevant to Billy Billions.  Either he's SOL<BR>
or he's not.<BR>
<BR>
> Bloo, you might be right about international law, *BUT* I doubt your<BR>
> belief is shared by most citizens of the United States.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a problem with most US citizens being wrong.<BR>
Especially on a subject as abstract as international law.<BR>
<BR>
> If the UN<BR>
> tried to impose the terms of a treaty the US Senate hasn't ratified,<BR>
> I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
> UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
> No, I don't think the UN wants to pull a *political* blunder like<BR>
> that.<BR>
<BR>
Its a question of who is interpreting a law.  Is it a Spanish court,<BR>
with custody of a US-flagged supertanker than ran aground on<BR>
the Canary Islands, making some determination about something<BR>
that occured on board?  Or is it a New York Court of Appeals,<BR>
trying to decide if what happened on a Turkish ship, which has<BR>
since left for the high seas, is legal?<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, and there is *no* if about it, the Moon Treaty has NOT been<BR>
> ratified by the US Senate.  The only active lobbying I've ever done<BR>
> was against that treaty.  <g><BR>
<BR>
And depending on which court is asking the question, that<BR>
may not matter.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:25:27 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
> >I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
> >UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
> You are forgetting about the other UN Headquarters, the one over here, in <BR>
> Europe. In Geneve, if i am not mistaken.<BR>
Not to speak of the UN-City (yes we call it that) here in Vienna. <BR>
Carlos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:55:07 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Hello Leonard,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And trust me, for the sort of money and fame that could be involved,<BR>
> you *would* get volunteers.<BR>
<BR>
Ever seen the intro of Unreal Tournament?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2447<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2448<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Traveller On-Line bug<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:25:18 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 13:42 17.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>By paying to view this movie you support Scientology. That should be<BR>
>reason enough not to see it.<BR>
>Who knows whether there are subliminals or such stuff in it? May be<BR>
>paranoid but the declared goal of this corporation-guised-as-religion<BR>
>is world domination.<BR>
>I'm happy our Secret Service monitors them.<BR>
<BR>
And I am happy my country doesnt recognize them as a religion, but treats <BR>
them as a business instead, no matter what the United States and some of <BR>
your actors may say.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:58:21 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
>   Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
> <BR>
>   Rob<BR>
<BR>
Well, since they were the original inspiration for my plasma carbine and<BR>
smg designs, I'd say around TL11-12. Of course, they had much more<BR>
efficient EPCs, but hey. Fudge a bit, and reqork the recoil a bit -<BR>
voila. The other way to go would be to design them as CLC lasers, but<BR>
that's much less impressive.<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:44:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>[I wrote:]<BR>
>><BR>
>> No they don't. Where did I say that they do? Charles theorized that the<BR>
>> piety of the people in a religious dictatorship would draw them away from<BR>
>> work. I pointed out that some of the people most renowned for piety were<BR>
>> also renowned for their work ethic. Hence, his explanation doesn't sit<BR>
well<BR>
>> with me.<BR>
><BR>
>And I was pointing out that they *weren't* living in a religious<BR>
>dictatorship. That changes things *considerably*. Religious observances<BR>
>become *mandatory*, and are *frequent*.<BR>
<BR>
C'mon Leonard. Give me a break here. First, "mandatory" is not some magic<BR>
word that you can use that somehow makes the time spent on religious<BR>
observance somehow "different". If x amount of hours are spent doing<BR>
something, it doesn't matter whether or not that something is mandatory.<BR>
Whether or not these observances are mandatory is really a moot point in<BR>
this context[1].<BR>
<BR>
Frequency is another issue. I'm not sure that I see a link between a<BR>
religious dictatorship and frequent religious observances. As I pointed out<BR>
in the post you originally responded to: not all religions have a strong<BR>
cultic component, and such a component would be required for lengthy and<BR>
frequent observances. If a religious dictatorship appears which doesn't have<BR>
a strong cultic component, then there really aren't going to be a lot of<BR>
festivals and observances to "go to". Alternately, if the cultic component<BR>
of a religion is one which actively supports scientific or technological<BR>
development, then wouldn't necessarily be a drawback.<BR>
<BR>
Still, I will go ahead and play by your rules. I will try to think of<BR>
societies and cultures with frequent and mandatory religious observances.<BR>
Mandatory is a rather tough criterion to fill. There are very few historical<BR>
examples of societies with truly mandatory religious observances. For the<BR>
sake of this discussion, I'll substitute societies in which it was possible<BR>
to get into severe trouble for teaching heterodox beliefs or heresies (or<BR>
even perhaps atheism). Athens had frequent observances based around the<BR>
goddess Athena, as well as the other gods and goddesses of the city. It was<BR>
also possible to be brought up on formal charges of atheism (not honoring<BR>
the deities of the city) and heterodoxy. Despite that "drawback", Athens was<BR>
the center of scientific, rhetorical and philosophical learning in the<BR>
poleis. They were also the most economically powerful.<BR>
<BR>
Throughout the history of ancient Rome, religious observances were frequent<BR>
and mandatory. As Rome acquired an emperor, certain specific practices<BR>
became even more mandatory. However, throughout the history of ancient Rome,<BR>
atheism (not honoring the gods of Rome) was an offense punishable by death,<BR>
unless of course your province had a special exemption. Ancient Rome was the<BR>
economic and technological leader of the ancient world. For example, once<BR>
"lost", some of the secrets of Roman construction were not re-discovered for<BR>
centuries. Enough has been said about Roman engineering that I don't feel<BR>
the need to go into it.<BR>
<BR>
Chronologically and geographically, we now find ourselves now in medieval<BR>
Europe. The frequency of festivals in medieval Europe is nigh unto<BR>
legendary. Whether or not they were "mandatory" is another question (see<BR>
note [1] below), but I think that there is sufficient evidence of<BR>
criminalized heresy, heterodoxy and atheism to warrant that Catholicism in<BR>
medieval Europe was as "mandatory" as it ever was. Around about 1000 AD (or<BR>
CE, if you're so inclined) things really started to take off. The invention<BR>
of the mechanical clock in the West predates this slightly, and is generally<BR>
attributed to one of two monks (in the monastic orders, religious<BR>
observances were more frequent and more mandatory). Still, the "mechanical<BR>
arts" in medieval Europe flourished. Windmills became large tower windmills.<BR>
Construction technology went from wooden buildings, built in the<BR>
"bay-system" to the truly magnificent, and technologically advanced, gothic<BR>
cathedrals. There was also the "12th century Renaissance", during which all<BR>
manner of mechanical devices appeared... and so on.<BR>
<BR>
The point is that even frequent and mandatory religious observances don't<BR>
seem to slow up technological advancement all that much. Yeah, I don't know<BR>
if all of these cases fit into your version of what a religious dictatorship<BR>
looks like. I do know that religious observances were frequent, and were as<BR>
mandatory as I can imagine given the circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
I still fall back on my initial sentiment: The -2 tech level DM appears to<BR>
be an artifact of the notion that religion and science are incompatible,<BR>
based on a few isolated instances, spectacularly (and incorrectly) expressed<BR>
in the case of the "martyr of science" Galileo Galilei.<BR>
<BR>
[1] It's also a moot point because religious observances in that period<BR>
*were* mandatory, after a fashion. Since religion was tied in with the<BR>
social structure of the towns, villages and cities. It really wasn't a great<BR>
idea to miss masses and feasts, not necessarily because the religious<BR>
authorities would come down on you, but because you would be effectively<BR>
"dead" socially.<BR>
<BR>
>"Piety" *differs* in the two cultural matrixes.<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I don't care if the notion of piety differs in the two cultural<BR>
matrixes, or whether it's motivated by fear, faith, love, or whatever. The<BR>
point is that x amount of hours spent in religious observance is x amount of<BR>
hours spent in religious observance, no matter what the government type is.<BR>
Time spent doing something is still time spent doing something.<BR>
<BR>
Now, if you want to say that the "dictatorship" aspect is what retards<BR>
technological development, I'm all ears, especially given that the other<BR>
dictatorship on the list has no such negative DM.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:40:20 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller On-Line bug<BR>
<BR>
Okay smart aleck.  Consider it noted.<BR>
<BR>
Also, have you tried to jump into an empty hex then<BR>
try to get out?  Don't try this at home, kids!<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> How about not having to pay for ship mortgage when all the mortgage is<BR>
> paid off? Wouldn't that be a neat feature?  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> /Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:57:16 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
choke.....giggle......sputter.....SPEW!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
And another keyboard falls prey to annihilation by IBC.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh><BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:49:48 -0400<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 >Do NOT, I say again NOT see "Battlefield Earth" under any circumstances.<BR>
 >If faced with a slow lingering death, and BE, I'd chose death.  It is<BR>
 >impossible to express just how bad this film is.  At one point, my<BR>
 >intestines tried to throttle me in an attempt to save themselves.<BR>
 ><BR>
 >Bad, BAD movie!!  My eyes!  My eyes!  *whimper*<BR>
<BR>
I have this haunting image of Doug's intestines bursting out, Alien like,<BR>
sending popcorn in all directions and snaking around Doug's neck,<BR>
Re-Animator like.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:08:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>So am I correct in understanding that 34 is a significant<BR>
>part of the then Mr. Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify 34 cm<BR>
>perhaps? If so your TU is seems somewhat indelicate.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It could be inches if he uses GT.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:04:23 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
<BR>
At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>Actually, I suspect the Kenyan troopers did contemplate that<BR>
>possibility going in, or at least their officers should have.  It's<BR>
>just that there wasn't much they could do about it given the<BR>
>situation.  Heck, almost by definition a "peacekeeper" is a target<BR>
>with bullseyes painted on both front and back.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Note the British Paras and Royal Marines deployed to Sierra Leone <BR>
*aren't* there as peace keepers. Hmm.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:07:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
At 13:34 -0400 17/5/00, "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Not necessarily. No one would say, for example, that hydrographic<BR>
>percentage doesn't affect the atmosphere. Yet we roll for H2O<BR>
>afterwards. And I'd expect tech level to affect starport type<BR>
>as much, if not more, than starports affect tech.<BR>
<BR>
Size precedes both and determines gravity - gravity determines escape <BR>
velocity which determines the ease at which gases escape. If the <BR>
gases can escape then the fluid figure will fall as it boils off <BR>
hence it seems moderately logical to me.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 17:19, Ken J. Kazinski wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All you need to do is look at the islamic countries in the middle east,<BR>
> especially Saudi Arabia.  Prayer disrupts the work day up to 3 times per<BR>
> day.  During the religious holidays (Haj & Rahmadan) most people celebrate<BR>
> well into the AM and come to work for only a half day.<BR>
<BR>
However this doesn't apply to all religions, and many non-religious <BR>
societies could well have other, equally time-consuming, obligations. <BR>
How about an Athenian Democracy which requires that you sit down and <BR>
read the debate before you vote on each issue each morning before <BR>
leaving for work, and also requires that everyone votes?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 10:47, samwise1 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I meant to bring this up before but kept forgetting...<BR>
> While the Solomani do have those fun Nazi ideas on race, their government<BR>
> is an almost exact mirror of the old Soviet Union. The three sided mix of<BR>
> Party, Army and State Security was what kept them from multiple coups<BR>
> every few years and what allowed them constant purges. The only thing<BR>
> missing is any note of those purges affecting SolSec which is rather odd<BR>
> as the Soviets did so regularly.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously the Sollies are better at keeping things quiet than some <BR>
other governments that run in this way :)<BR>
<BR>
BTW where is it written that the Solomani have constant purges? I don't <BR>
recall anything about that in any of the stuff I have (which doesn't <BR>
include either Cats n Rats or the DGP Solomani book).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 10:58, Veskrashen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >   Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, since they were the original inspiration for my plasma carbine and<BR>
> smg designs, I'd say around TL11-12. Of course, they had much more<BR>
> efficient EPCs, but hey. Fudge a bit, and reqork the recoil a bit - voila.<BR>
> The other way to go would be to design them as CLC lasers, but that's much<BR>
> less impressive.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Powerguns have no recoil (well none that anything but a photon <BR>
sail powered ship would notice, anyway), and IMO if we knew how they <BR>
coverted matter to energy (which was discovered by accident, or nearly <BR>
so) we could make 'em today (though not the little rifles), so that <BR>
makes them TL8-9.<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 9:06, rgd@infinet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>   Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
<BR>
About TTL9, IMO. The main discovery was serendipitous, and could be <BR>
discovered at ant TL from about 5 onwards, and most of the rest of a <BR>
powergun is precision machining. The tricky bit is the liguid nitrogen <BR>
bottles, which are noted as being null-conductive, and thus able to <BR>
store nitrogen without leakage indefinately at room temperature. Aside <BR>
from that powerguns are probably actually TL8 (today, IOW), though the <BR>
universe is TL9-10, with no (or poor) gravitics.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 16:03, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
> > > the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
> > > many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The US quit paying attention to World Court decisions back when several<BR>
> > tribes of Native Americans won cases against the US for violating<BR>
> > treaties with them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not exactly.  The US challenged the WC's jurisdiction, and failing<BR>
> that, chose not to appear.  So, the US doesn't consider the in abstentia<BR>
> proceedings valid.<BR>
<BR>
In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you <BR>
and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 8:44, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This movie takes place in 3000 AD, right?  All around are the rusting<BR>
> remains of our culture, destroyed by the Psyclos, who evidently never<BR>
> heard of asteroid mining.  So what do we use to fight back?  Harrier jump<BR>
> jets that have been sitting around for the entire millennium, and are in<BR>
> perfect working order!  Crewed by cavemen with a week's training!  ID4 was<BR>
> more believable!<BR>
<BR>
So they took ununbeliveable piece of crap and made it even more <BR>
unbeliveable? Unbeliveable.<BR>
<BR>
At least Hubbard had Johnny take over a year to learn how to use the <BR>
psyclo's gear, and the humans used captured heavy equipment.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:50:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries (sort of long)<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 18:04, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> >Actually, I suspect the Kenyan troopers did contemplate that<BR>
> >possibility going in, or at least their officers should have.  It's<BR>
> >just that there wasn't much they could do about it given the<BR>
> >situation.  Heck, almost by definition a "peacekeeper" is a target<BR>
> >with bullseyes painted on both front and back.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Note the British Paras and Royal Marines deployed to Sierra Leone <BR>
> *aren't* there as peace keepers. Hmm.<BR>
<BR>
I think certain people might be a little cheesed off at their men <BR>
having to trek through jungle while being hunted. As some were New <BR>
Zealander I want to know why my government hasn't done a g*d damned <BR>
thing (probably because it'd cost too much).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:55:29 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 17 May 00, at 11:40, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > OTGH Insects move around in swarms...if you allow for 'Hive-minds' and or<BR>
> > acid/toxin excretion or etc they are more of a threat. GPMG vs bee<BR>
> > swarm...who gets swatted?<BR>
><BR>
> That's what napalm and flamethrowers are for.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
mmmmmm.....napalm....<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> store nitrogen without leakage indefinately at room temperature. Aside <BR>
> from that powerguns are probably actually TL8 (today, IOW), though the <BR>
> universe is TL9-10, with no (or poor) gravitics.<BR>
<BR>
Most of their hovercraft are fusion-powered, which implies that the have good compact fusion power sources with a fairly high power density.  Aside from that, they seem to be mostly TL 8-9.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:04:13 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Say didn't I hear about some Texas sized mega berg<BR>
> > that just calved off of the Ross Ice shelf?<BR>
><BR>
> Rhode Island sized, which may be smaller than the<BR>
> Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I think there is a cattle station in Australia slightly larger than all<BR>
of Texas...<BR>
<BR>
I could be wrong :)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:03:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Btw, Doug, do you mind if I use Penguin Boy/Douglas Berry in a V&V<BR>
game<BR>
>>I am working on?<BR>
><BR>
>This one I have to see.  Send me the write up when you're done.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sure, I am working on the V&V game, set along the lines of the Tick.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:12:05 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
BTW where is it written that the Solomani have constant purges? I don't <BR>
recall anything about that in any of the stuff I have (which doesn't <BR>
include either Cats n Rats or the DGP Solomani book).<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
IIRC, these are the same item...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:19:37 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you<BR>
> and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
<BR>
For crimes, no trial. Criminal trials 'in abstentia' are about as<BR>
"Unamerican" a process as you can have.  Arrest warrants,<BR>
fugitive status, and extradition proceedings will likely follow<BR>
for crimes.<BR>
<BR>
For civil cases, normally, assuming the court has the jurisdiction<BR>
to enforce a ruling, and has jurisdiction enough over your person<BR>
to require that you appear, default judgment against you.<BR>
<BR>
But, if you're charged in one state, and you live in another, depending<BR>
on the issue, they may not be able to exert that jurisdiction.  In some<BR>
cases you can make what is called a "special appearance" to fight just<BR>
the matter of whether they have jurisdiction.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:23:28 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Say didn't I hear about some Texas sized mega berg<BR>
> > > that just calved off of the Ross Ice shelf?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Rhode Island sized, which may be smaller than the<BR>
> > Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> I think there is a cattle station in Australia slightly larger than all<BR>
> of Texas...<BR>
><BR>
> I could be wrong :)<BR>
<BR>
What? New South Wales?  It looks to be about equal in my<BR>
unscientific probably distorted-projection map.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:36:44 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 16 May 00, at 23:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > They are so PO'ed because starships are ****EXPENSIVE****. And since<BR>
> > there was only one weapon on planet that *could* have made the shot, it<BR>
> > makes things much simpler than usual.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Heck, even the US would be rather eager to "deal with" the folks who<BR>
> > blew away a several *billion* dollar ship/plane if it was *certain*<BR>
> > which (small group) had done it.<BR>
><BR>
> Yep. Imagine the public outcry if the New Jersey was sunk by some band<BR>
> of third worlders with a lucky hit. Never mind how many of them it had<BR>
> blown away first, there'd be quite a number of people after their<BR>
> blood.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine if the New Jersey was sunk by some band. The cook was on shore<BR>
leave....<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:35:06 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 20:19, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you<BR>
> > and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
> <BR>
> For crimes, no trial. Criminal trials 'in abstentia' are about as<BR>
> "Unamerican" a process as you can have.  Arrest warrants,<BR>
> fugitive status, and extradition proceedings will likely follow<BR>
> for crimes.<BR>
> <BR>
> For civil cases, normally, assuming the court has the jurisdiction<BR>
> to enforce a ruling, and has jurisdiction enough over your person<BR>
> to require that you appear, default judgment against you.<BR>
> <BR>
> But, if you're charged in one state, and you live in another, depending on<BR>
> the issue, they may not be able to exert that jurisdiction.  In some cases<BR>
> you can make what is called a "special appearance" to fight just the<BR>
> matter of whether they have jurisdiction.<BR>
<BR>
So basically if somebody (or some company) is taken to court for <BR>
breaking some contract or agreement and they don't show nothing can <BR>
happen until they're dragged into court?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:39:25 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:54 17.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
> >UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
> You are forgetting about the other UN Headquarters, the one over here, in<BR>
> Europe. In Geneve, if i am not mistaken.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Earthdome?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:31:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Check out Robert Asprin's "Cold Cash War" for one possible result of<BR>
>> such a situation.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you really mean "possible"?  I hope not.<BR>
<BR>
Not probable, nor even *desirable*, but still possible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:35:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
>> If you want proof that bone is stronger than steel, get someone who is<BR>
>> fairly strong to try bending a pair of steel rods the size of the bones<BR>
>> in his forearms. If he's strong enough, it won't be all that hard...<BR>
><BR>
> Are these hollow or solid rods?<BR>
<BR>
Solid will do.<BR>
<BR>
> Also I suppose anyone who is "strong enough" could bend whatever you<BR>
> hand them.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. If it's stronger than their bones, then the *bones* break before<BR>
you can exert enough force to bend the rods. And yes, human muscle<BR>
*can* exert enough force to break the bones the muscles are attached<BR>
to. It's just very hard to *voluntarily* exert such forces. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2448<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2449</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2449<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:49:32 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Where are the Imperial Gladiators?<BR>
<BR>
At what TL does medicine become good enough for deathsports to not be completely<BR>
fatal/permanant? In 'Steel Beach' there are death sports, but medtech is such<BR>
that the losers are up and around the next day...where does this come into the<BR>
equation?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:59:40 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
In Progress.<BR>
<BR>
I made this page, concerning canonical Spinward Marches<BR>
noblility to help myself, and anyone else:<BR>
<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
Its not much, so here it is:<BR>
<BR>
Spinward Marches<BR>
Duke Regina: Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
    Marquis Regina:  Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
Duchess Mora:  Delphine<BR>
    Duchess Apparent:  Elane<BR>
    King Heroni (local)<BR>
Duchess Trin's Veil:  Miraii Arahailli of Trin<BR>
        Count Hammerium: Kantte<BR>
Aramis:  ??<BR>
    Marquis Aramis: ?? (Husband to Lady Arianne Bolden-Tukera<BR>
        Chief Exec ofTukera in Aramis SubSec.<BR>
Vilis:  ??<BR>
    Marquis Frenzie:  Canter Mavraii<BR>
Lanth:  ??<BR>
    Marquis Equus:  Corven Halfore (Haflore's have a strong rivalry with<BR>
<BR>
        the Debruenis family of Adabicci)<BR>
Glisten:  ??<BR>
    Marquis Mertactor: ??<BR>
    Horosho (local): I.N. Lieutenant Lish Dervan, Dictator<BR>
Five Sisters:  Provincial Governor at Iderati (presumably no Duke).<BR>
<BR>
Fleets of the SM:<BR>
18th Fleet (Lanth)<BR>
23rd Fleet (Rhylanor)<BR>
43rd Fleet (Lunion)<BR>
73rd Fleet (Mora)<BR>
    319th Communications Fleet (Mora)<BR>
100th Fleet (Glisten)<BR>
193rd Fleet (Vilis/Frenzie)<BR>
207th Fleet (Trin's Veil/Katrulu)<BR>
208th Fleet (Five Sisters - Iderati)<BR>
212th Fleet (Jewell)<BR>
213th Fleet (Regina/Efate), Sector Admiral Baron Vadid Ligl<BR>
214th Fleet (Aramis)<BR>
Duchess Delphine's Fleet (Mora)<BR>
Archduke Norris' Fleet (Mora)<BR>
<BR>
Merc Units of SM: (From GT: Star Mercs, just those<BR>
that are clearly in the SM)<BR>
<BR>
Strouden Snipers (Created Strouden in1118)<BR>
Trimbell's Defenders (last mentioned at Bevey in 1112)<BR>
SB Rangers (Riverland Campain, 5FW)<BR>
Franklin's Armored (5FW, Knorbes)<BR>
Carstein's Outlaws<BR>
Death's Head Hussars<BR>
Transplanetary Express<BR>
Trantaxer Company<BR>
Rifles, Inc.<BR>
102nd Lift Infantry Battalion<BR>
Spinward Guardian Services<BR>
Star Guards, LIC<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:00:56 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So basically if somebody (or some company) is taken to court for<BR>
> breaking some contract or agreement and they don't show nothing can<BR>
> happen until they're dragged into court?<BR>
<BR>
Contracts are civil law, so default judgment is likely,<BR>
assuming the court has jurisdiction.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:01:56 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Check out Robert Asprin's "Cold Cash War" for one possible result of<BR>
> >> such a situation.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Do you really mean "possible"?  I hope not.<BR>
><BR>
> Not probable, nor even *desirable*, but still possible.<BR>
<BR>
I've got some great property for you on the moon.<BR>
Very quiet neighborhood, no neighbors, great view . . .<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:07:49 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
Pete wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You could use prisoners that have been condemned to death or long<BR>
> imprisonment. They would be given a choice:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Fight in the arena. Freedom after x number of games.<BR>
> 2. Serve out your sentence.<BR>
<BR>
Or you could just allow people to voluntarily enter<BR>
a gladiatorial arena.  Suicide isn't illegal in the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
You could have a whole range of duels, not just<BR>
duels to the death, but<BR>
- - first blood,<BR>
- - last one standing,<BR>
- - team vs. team<BR>
- - tag team,<BR>
- - battle-royal (king of the hill)<BR>
- - sophonts vs. non-sophonts<BR>
- - and finally, the battle to the death.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, death may occur in any of these,<BR>
but its only necessary in the death match.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:04:33 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
> >Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
><BR>
> An elf with a bazooka?<BR>
><BR>
> <g><BR>
<BR>
Had that happen...only Skill 1 in heavy weapons and had the party's much<BR>
abused assult cannon shooting at gargoyles from a rooftop....remember<BR>
the SR rule of one...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:05:19 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
>Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
>only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
>still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
><BR>
>Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
Real life just keeps getting in the way.  Sigh.  The Jenghe site will <BR>
be getting up to speed in the next couple of weeks, God willing.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
< http://www.europa.com/~raller/jenghe/ ><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:08:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
> >Not necessarily. No one would say, for example, that hydrographic<BR>
> >percentage doesn't affect the atmosphere. Yet we roll for H2O<BR>
> >afterwards. And I'd expect tech level to affect starport type<BR>
> >as much, if not more, than starports affect tech.<BR>
> <BR>
> Size precedes both and determines gravity - gravity determines escape <BR>
> velocity which determines the ease at which gases escape. If the <BR>
> gases can escape then the fluid figure will fall as it boils off <BR>
> hence it seems moderately logical to me.<BR>
<BR>
I never said that size didn't effect both the atmosphere and the<BR>
hydrosphere. But atmosphere *also* effects H2O in classic<BR>
Traveller (you subtract 4 if atmos is 0, 1 or A+), and the reverse<BR>
is not true, despite the fact that oceans really *do* have a huge<BR>
effect on atmospheric composition and density.<BR>
<BR>
To repeat: There's no reason to assume that the first entries on<BR>
the UPP always take causal precedence over later ones. Which<BR>
suggests (getting back to the main point) that tech level may <BR>
effect government type more than government effects tech.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:13:26 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
>Obviously the Sollies are better at keeping things quiet than some<BR>
other governments that run in this way :)<BR>
<BR>
BTW where is it written that the Solomani have constant purges? I don't<BR>
recall anything about that in any of the stuff I have (which doesn't<BR>
include either Cats n Rats or the DGP Solomani book).<<BR>
<BR>
Read between the lines a little. The constant clashes between the various<BR>
branches of the Solomani Party have to result in periodic purges. One of the<BR>
last things in the MT canon was infighting and the likely<BR>
purge/assassination of the liberal wing. And actually all this is easiest to<BR>
see in Cats & Rats, mainly because of volume. Hints exist in CT though. (And<BR>
simply wouldn't appear in TNE or T4.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:29:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 21:13, samwise1 wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Read between the lines a little. The constant clashes between the various<BR>
> branches of the Solomani Party have to result in periodic purges. One of<BR>
> the last things in the MT canon was infighting and the likely<BR>
> purge/assassination of the liberal wing. And actually all this is easiest<BR>
> to see in Cats & Rats, mainly because of volume. Hints exist in CT though.<BR>
> (And simply wouldn't appear in TNE or T4.)<BR>
<BR>
Yep. And similar reading between the lines will show that the 3I did <BR>
the same or worse things, but that's not considered canon. Also the <BR>
late MT infighting was considered newsworthy, which could be read to <BR>
imply that these things are not that common.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:39:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> >Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
>><BR>
>> An elf with a bazooka?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
No it's a dwarf with a panzerfaust  ...back blast?  ...what back blast!.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:49:15 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
>Yep. And similar reading between the lines will show that the 3I did<BR>
the same or worse things, but that's not considered canon. Also the<BR>
late MT infighting was considered newsworthy, which could be read to<BR>
imply that these things are not that common.<<BR>
<BR>
Of course. The 3I is not as nice as it always comes off, that is for sure.<BR>
As for the items being newsworthy, I'd say the casual attitude shows how<BR>
common they were. Along the lines of "Look, those silly Solomani rebels are<BR>
killing each other again."<BR>
I'd say there were a healthy number of purges in the Party since the Rim War<BR>
and more than one in the Confederation Army. Only Sol Sec seems not to have<BR>
been purged itself ever.<BR>
As for canon, it is obvious there was a purge at the end of the Rim War in<BR>
AM6. I don't see anything in C & R as being beyond the pale as far as<BR>
pre-Rebellion events.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:07:35 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Hello Luther,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey, Independence Day was a movie with a great message: even if you're<BR>
> aliens with very advanced technology, don't screw with the U.S., or we'll<BR>
> kick your butts. What's not believable about that?<BR>
<BR>
*g*<BR>
Perhaps it's because I'm a European, but most of my friends found ID4<BR>
at best funny.<BR>
Even though we all find it interesting that a German director can do<BR>
films that are more US-patriotic than any other.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:33:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>It's not the wastage of explosive that counts there. It's that if you<BR>
>drop the bridge (suitably warped) "in place", you accomplish *multiple*<BR>
>goals:<BR>
><BR>
>1. You prevent the use of the bridge for crossing the river<BR>
>2. you force them to take it apart and *remove* it before they can<BR>
>   replace it.<BR>
>3. if the stream was navigable, you've blocked it.<BR>
><BR>
Forgot one<BR>
<BR>
4. If you drop it correctly on the up stream side you dam the stream with<BR>
bridge against the midstream supports and flood the country side or failing<BR>
that cause the stream to flush the bridge and its mid stream supports down<BR>
river taking out very hard to replace pilings and/or midsteam<BR>
supports/piers.<BR>
<BR>
By the way how you take out a bridge depends on when you or if you expect to<BR>
come back.  The degree of damage inflicted and on what side of the stream is<BR>
occasionally calculated by how much time you expect it may take you to<BR>
rebuild it when you return.<BR>
<BR>
Little tip I was taught regarding taking out piers.   Always cut them at an<BR>
angle if you aren't coming back.  This serves two purposes, anyone who has<BR>
to repair the damage first has to level them off flat before rebuilding and<BR>
second you can move the structure in the direction of the slope of the cut<BR>
for maximum effect.<BR>
<BR>
Was also taught that triple nickle 40 is the way to go for bridge abutments.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
formerly a  1 Lt. with the 43rd Combat Engineer Co., Provisional Squadron,<BR>
3rd ACR<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:06:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
on 5/16/00 12:56 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
> In the Traveller universe, unlike the present time,<BR>
> mercenaries don't have any ideology.  They just fight for<BR>
> the party that hired them.  They may fight on the other<BR>
> side -- your side -- next time.  (There are no conflict of<BR>
> interest rules regarding mercenaries, unlike lawyers.)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Mercenaries today have ideologies? I guess that depends.  There are plenty<BR>
of examples of mercenaries today whose 'ideology' is to get paid.<BR>
<BR>
Check out the book<BR>
<BR>
The Whores of War : Mercenaries Today<BR>
by Wilfred G., Burchett.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:31:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 03:49 PM,  Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the<BR>
>>UN, the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
<BR>
>You are forgetting about the other UN Headquarters, the one over here, in<BR>
> Europe. In Geneve, if i am not mistaken.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I was. <g><BR>
<BR>
Actually, I'm of the opinion that the UN is mostly a debating society. The *powers* are the US, the EU, Japan, Russia (less now, but anyone with that many nukes is a power), and eventually China. Hum, sounds like the Security Council doesn't it? All BB needs is one of them backing his play.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:34:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you<BR>
>> and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
><BR>
>For crimes, no trial. Criminal trials 'in abstentia' are about as<BR>
>"Unamerican" a process as you can have.  Arrest warrants,<BR>
>fugitive status, and extradition proceedings will likely follow<BR>
>for crimes.<BR>
<BR>
I don't want to challenge your considerable knowledge of law, Steve, and I<BR>
may be missing some crucial bit of info, but this has certainly happened in<BR>
recent history, "'round these here parts" (Pennsylvania) at least. I'm not<BR>
sure of the date but the noted conspiracy theorist and would-be hippie guru,<BR>
Ira Einhorn, was convicted "in absentia" for the murder of Holly Maddux. So<BR>
it seems that it does happen from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:38:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
on 5/17/00 6:13 PM, samwise1 at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Obviously the Sollies are better at keeping things quiet than some<BR>
>> other governments that run in this way :)<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW where is it written that the Solomani have constant purges? I don't<BR>
> recall anything about that in any of the stuff I have (which doesn't<BR>
> include either Cats n Rats or the DGP Solomani book).<<BR>
> <BR>
> Read between the lines a little. The constant clashes between the various<BR>
> branches of the Solomani Party have to result in periodic purges. One of the<BR>
> last things in the MT canon was infighting and the likely<BR>
> purge/assassination of the liberal wing. And actually all this is easiest to<BR>
> see in Cats & Rats, mainly because of volume. Hints exist in CT though. (And<BR>
> simply wouldn't appear in TNE or T4.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Please enlighten me 'Cats and Rats'?. I have the Solomani aliens book, but<BR>
there are no mention of purges.  IMTU, purges would be unlikely in the<BR>
Confederation.  It is such a low tech, primitive concept.  Why kill your<BR>
enemies, when you can 'heal' them. When individual of group fall on the<BR>
losing side of an internal struggle, the can always undergo personality<BR>
'normalization'.  After all, they are sick.  And having a few faction leader<BR>
admit that they were in error on the nightly tri-d is so much more effective<BR>
and palatable by the masses...<BR>
<BR>
I'll be putting up some more information on 'normalization' on the SolSec<BR>
website this week.  See http://solsec.org<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:39:20 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
I posted a first draft of a planet to the TML and invited<BR>
comment. I received no comment. Therefore I did not revise<BR>
my entry. If I repost it will anyone comment on it?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:40:50 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 04:18 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Its a question of who is interpreting a law.  Is it a Spanish court, with<BR>
>custody of a US-flagged supertanker than ran aground on the Canary<BR>
>Islands, making some determination about something that occured on board? <BR>
>Or is it a New York Court of Appeals, trying to decide if what happened<BR>
>on a Turkish ship, which has since left for the high seas, is legal?<BR>
<BR>
>> Oh, and there is *no* if about it, the Moon Treaty has NOT been<BR>
>> ratified by the US Senate.  The only active lobbying I've ever done<BR>
>> was against that treaty.  <g><BR>
<BR>
>And depending on which court is asking the question, that<BR>
>may not matter.<BR>
<BR>
The point I'm making is that it *does* matter what court is ruling on the question, because if it's not a US court it isn't likely to have any weight politically or practically in the US, and if it is a US court I find it hard to believe a decision based on unratified treaty would be sustained in the Supreme Court...or accepted by the other two branches for that matter.  <BR>
<BR>
It might come down to a repeat of Andrew Jackson's line about the Court's ruling against the forced relocation of the Cherokee nation.  And as much as I oppose Jackson's action on *that* particular incident, I hope any future President and Congress presented with the situation outlined above would have the guts to stand against it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/18/00 at 10:04 AM,  Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Rhode Island sized, which may be smaller than the<BR>
>> Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>I think there is a cattle station in Australia slightly larger than all<BR>
>of Texas...<BR>
<BR>
With twice as many rabbits as Texas has cattle? ;-p<BR>
<BR>
>I could be wrong :)<BR>
<BR>
So, could I. Hee, hee!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:48:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
M$T1C wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps it's because I'm a European, but most of my friends found ID4<BR>
> at best funny.<BR>
> Even though we all find it interesting that a German director can do<BR>
> films that are more US-patriotic than any other.<BR>
<BR>
Even better was a comment by an American journalist Dave Berry, who<BR>
explained that the reason that we were able to plant a computer virus in the<BR>
alien's ship is the same reason that the aliens came to Earth to destroy us<BR>
in the first place: the aliens, like everyone else, were forced to use<BR>
Microsoft products.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:50:43 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 09:00 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> So basically if somebody (or some company) is taken to court for<BR>
>> breaking some contract or agreement and they don't show nothing can<BR>
>> happen until they're dragged into court?<BR>
<BR>
>Contracts are civil law, so default judgment is likely,<BR>
>assuming the court has jurisdiction.<BR>
<BR>
But keep in mind, you can get into situation in the US of having<BR>
dueling courts.  <g> Company A, based in state A brings suit against<BR>
company B based in state B. B responds by going to a court in B<BR>
asking for relief against A, who responds.  And then the various<BR>
Federal District courts can get involved, and just who has<BR>
jurisdiction can get *very* muddy.  Years of maneuvering can take<BR>
place before an actual trial takes place...if it *ever* does.  <BR>
<BR>
And then there are appeals...<g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:57:19 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 09:49 PM,  "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'd say there were a healthy number of purges in the Party since the Rim<BR>
>War and more than one in the Confederation Army. Only Sol Sec seems not<BR>
>to have been purged itself ever.<BR>
<BR>
>As for canon, it is obvious there was a purge at the end of the Rim War<BR>
>in AM6. I don't see anything in C & R as being beyond the pale as far as<BR>
>pre-Rebellion events.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, gee!  You don't think SolSec would advertise the fact that a<BR>
purge had taken place do you?  Besides, they would just "reeducate,<BR>
retrain, and reassign"...and anyone that knows that's shorthand for<BR>
torture, brainwashing, and murder isn't going to say so.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Or maybe there *aren't* any purges in the conventional sense, and we<BR>
really are talking about reeducation, retraining and reassignent.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah sure! That's the ticket!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:58:31 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
>Please enlighten me 'Cats and Rats'?. I have the Solomani aliens book, but<BR>
there are no mention of purges.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes there are, they simply aren't called purges. Sol Sec monitors people to<BR>
be sure they stay true to the basic Party line. Anyway who doesn't is "dealt<BR>
with". In my book, and based on the government of the Confederation being a<BR>
duplicate of the old Soviet Union, that translates to purge.<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU, purges would be unlikely in the Confederation.  It is such a low<BR>
tech, primitive concept.  Why kill your enemies, when you can 'heal' them.<BR>
When individual of group fall on the losing side of an internal struggle,<BR>
the can always undergo personality<BR>
'normalization'.  After all, they are sick.  And having a few faction leader<BR>
admit that they were in error on the nightly tri-d is so much more effective<BR>
and palatable by the masses...<<BR>
<BR>
You mean mind rape like the stinking Zhos pull? That might be OK for those<BR>
genetically polluted half men, but no decent upstanding Solomani Trueman<BR>
would ever sit still for such nonsense.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, first you purge someone then you rehabilitate them so they can<BR>
confess like that. Technically more Maoist then Stalinist there, but why<BR>
quibble over minor Party differences<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:01:43 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 07:57 AM,  Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Rita Kempley reviewed Battlefield: Earth for the Washington Post. It<BR>
>made the front page of the Style section on Friday. I quote the first<BR>
>two paragraphs verbatim:<BR>
<BR>
>"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a<BR>
>million years to create anything as cretinous as "Battlefield Earth."<BR>
>This film version of L. Ron Hubbard's futuristic novel is so <BR>
>breathtakingly awful in concept and execution, it wouldn't tax the<BR>
>smarts of a troglodyte. And when it comes to star John Travolta's<BR>
>performance, well hammy William Shatner's hairpiece is more<BR>
>convincing.<BR>
<BR>
>In the future, turkey cognoscenti will be heart to say: 'Ishtar,'<BR>
>pishtar! You haven't endured pain till you've seen 'Battlefield<BR>
>Earth.' "<BR>
<BR>
A review for the ages! I laughed, I cried, I neither bought the books nor plan to see the movie. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2449<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2450</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2450<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: off line for a few days<BR>
Re: Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
RE: off line for a few days<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
re: Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:04:53 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
<<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
 influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
<BR>
No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
<BR>
<< So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
<BR>
I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium <BR>
was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
<BR>
Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators that <BR>
don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:04:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 08:50 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Who knows whether there are subliminals or such stuff in it? May be<BR>
>>paranoid but the declared goal of this corporation-guised-as-religion<BR>
>>is world domination.<BR>
<BR>
>The subliminal message in this movie?  "Yor: Hunter From the Future"<BR>
>wasn't that bad afterall.<BR>
<BR>
Ghods, no! Not "Yor: Hunter From the Future!"   That's almost as bad as "Danger Island!"<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:11:24 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 08:48 PM,  "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Perhaps it's because I'm a European, but most of my friends found ID4<BR>
>> at best funny.<BR>
>> Even though we all find it interesting that a German director can do<BR>
>> films that are more US-patriotic than any other.<BR>
<BR>
>Even better was a comment by an American journalist Dave Berry, who<BR>
>explained that the reason that we were able to plant a computer virus in<BR>
>the alien's ship is the same reason that the aliens came to Earth to<BR>
>destroy us in the first place: the aliens, like everyone else, were<BR>
>forced to use Microsoft products.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, that explains it!  They got the Blue Screen of Death!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:15:49 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
on 5/17/00 8:58 PM, samwise1 at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You mean mind rape like the stinking Zhos pull? That might be OK for those<BR>
> genetically polluted half men, but no decent upstanding Solomani Trueman<BR>
> would ever sit still for such nonsense.<BR>
<BR>
Mind rape? of course not. But mental instability brought on by any number of<BR>
factors.  Probably originating from some 'mud' race.  We are talking of the<BR>
healing arts.  Every trueman is essential.<BR>
<BR>
In days gone by, the 'ill' were locked away in sanitariums, given doses of<BR>
mind numbing drugs, electroshock, even labotomized.  Only a primitive<BR>
society would condone such actions. Today we are so much more advanced.  We<BR>
recognize the illness for what it is, and we treat it medically. Thus each<BR>
member of our great society can contribute his fullest.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"SolSec -- Keeping the Confederation safe for humaniti."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@solsec.org<BR>
http://www.solsec.org<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:06:02 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Hello Volker,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm happy our Secret Service monitors them.<BR>
> And I am happy my country doesnt recognize them as a religion, but treats<BR>
> them as a business instead, no matter what the United States and some of <BR>
> your actors may say.<BR>
<BR>
Should I've said Bundesverfassungsschutz instead of Secret Service?<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
(For all you non-Germans, that's the Federal Department for the<BR>
Protection of the Constitution)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:19:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
on 5/17/00 9:04 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
> <BR>
> No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
> <BR>
> << So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
> <BR>
> I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium<BR>
> was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
> <BR>
> Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators that<BR>
> don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
> <BR>
Too bad they couldn't have been a bit more historically accurate, instead of<BR>
remakeing "Fall of the Roman Empire".<BR>
<BR>
Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
married to an ancient history major.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:33:08 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
> "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> > only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> > still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
> <BR>
> I posted a first draft of a planet to the TML and invited<BR>
> comment. I received no comment. Therefore I did not revise<BR>
> my entry. If I repost it will anyone comment on it?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I ll look at it now that I have some time before summer semaster.  <BR>
Ian did this for me so i should help out.<BR>
<BR>
Oh by the way can I get some help from you OZ or Asian people.  I <BR>
am working on an article about the Malaccan Straight, its <BR>
geopolitical importances.  Can any of you give suggested readings.<BR>
<BR>
Acourse send it to me off line.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:44:37 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
married to an ancient history major.<<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, wouldn't that be "last of a long string of rather good Emperors<BR>
because he allowed familial succession which led to the barracks Emperors"?<BR>
(Which is what I get for playtesting Imperium Romanum II.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:51:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/18/00 at 11:50 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> All you need to do is look at the islamic countries in the middle east,<BR>
>> especially Saudi Arabia.  Prayer disrupts the work day up to 3 times per<BR>
>> day.  During the religious holidays (Haj & Rahmadan) most people celebrate<BR>
>> well into the AM and come to work for only a half day.<BR>
<BR>
>However this doesn't apply to all religions, and many non-religious <BR>
>societies could well have other, equally time-consuming, obligations. <BR>
<BR>
How about TML society where we are obligated to sit down and read hundreds of posts during the day instead of working.<BR>
<BR>
What? <BR>
<BR>
You mean we *aren't* obligated to read them?  <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:56:51 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 06:08 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote: >So am I<BR>
>correct in understanding that 34 is a significant >part of the then Mr.<BR>
>Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify 34 cm >perhaps? If so your TU is<BR>
>seems somewhat indelicate.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>It could be inches if he uses GT.<BR>
<BR>
Great googly mooglies! He just went from being a horse to being a sperm whale!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:11:37 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 08:48 AM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'll be out of town and probably away from a computer for<BR>
>several days, so I'd appreciate it if you all would try not<BR>
>to write too much so that I don't have a big backlog of<BR>
>digests when I get back.  Otherwise I won't get any work<BR>
>done on Monday.<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Ha! Ha!<BR>
<BR>
Hey, everybody, Glenn won't be able to get any work done if we post too much.<BR>
<BR>
...let's double our output, I *know* we can do it! Glenn is counting on us.<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    just trying to be helpful<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:33:15 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
<BR>
Keith Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nice to see that some fellow Travellers will be there at the<BR>
> convention.  I'll be running a GURPS Lite: Traveller game on Sunday, and a<BR>
> MIB at the con will be running another GURPS Traveller game on Saturday.<BR>
<BR>
So that's why the name sounded familiar when I looked at your Traveller<BR>
games on the GameCon web site.<BR>
<BR>
I'll be there running my infamous "Star Trek: Another Twist of the<BR>
Knife" series.  One of our other San Jose meet players is running a<BR>
Traveller/Alternity game; but, we've promised not to get the rope out<BR>
until the game is over.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
See you there,<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:34:36 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a "popular"<BR>
> drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature) for<BR>
> that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
<BR>
That sounds great--similar to San Jose.  I hear that drive-ins are still<BR>
massively popular in India of all places.  I'll have to check that one<BR>
out some day.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:20:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
On 05/17/00 at 12:05 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>It is also possible that this whole tradition on jump dimming started<BR>
>from an erroneous belief that it made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
Or dimming lights was a Vilani religious/cultural tradition transfered over from earlier times.<BR>
<BR>
Or dimming lights was to reduce the disorienting visual effects of entering jump space with poorly tuned jump coils. The need has gone away, but the tradition remains.<BR>
<BR>
Or any number of other possiblities...pick one. <g><BR>
<BR>
It doesn't have to be connected directly to energy shortages.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:23:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Ha! Ha! Ha!<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, everybody, Glenn won't be able to get any work done if we<BR>
> post too much.<BR>
><BR>
> ...let's double our output, I *know* we can do it! Glenn is<BR>
> counting on us.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe a good way would be to point out to Peter Newman that a really good<BR>
way to get lots of discussion going about his landgrab draft would be to<BR>
mention the connection between the law level on his world and the local gun<BR>
control laws. Law level C: only senators from California allowed to carry<BR>
guns?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:37:47 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:34 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a<BR>
"popular"<BR>
> > drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature)<BR>
for<BR>
> > that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
><BR>
> That sounds great--similar to San Jose.  I hear that drive-ins are still<BR>
> massively popular in India of all places.  I'll have to check that one<BR>
> out some day.<BR>
><BR>
> Kristian<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, though I understand "Bollywood" has a thing for musicals!  And I can't<BR>
recommend the ones I have seen as even good for a laugh - they are well<BR>
above MY head!!  Must be an Indian thing? :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:30:56 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
At 08:59 PM 5/17/00 -0400, bloo wrote:<BR>
>I made this page, concerning canonical Spinward Marches<BR>
>noblility to help myself, and anyone else:<BR>
><BR>
>http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
><BR>
>Its not much, so here it is:<BR>
><BR>
>Spinward Marches<BR>
>Duke Regina: Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
>     Marquis Regina:  Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember that Norris had some other titles.  I believe one of <BR>
them was Baron of Yori (this is from memory, books not handy).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:36:33 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 08:48 PM 5/17/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>M$T1C wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Perhaps it's because I'm a European, but most of my friends found ID4<BR>
> > at best funny.<BR>
> > Even though we all find it interesting that a German director can do<BR>
> > films that are more US-patriotic than any other.<BR>
><BR>
>Even better was a comment by an American journalist Dave Berry, who<BR>
>explained that the reason that we were able to plant a computer virus in the<BR>
>alien's ship is the same reason that the aliens came to Earth to destroy us<BR>
>in the first place: the aliens, like everyone else, were forced to use<BR>
>Microsoft products.<BR>
But didn't you know that Jeff Goldblum's descendents worked for Lucan in a <BR>
secret little lab that had an accident around 1130 Imperial.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
      nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
"The avalanche has already started.<BR>
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."<BR>
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:04:29 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, wouldn't that be "last of a long string of rather good Emperors<BR>
> because he allowed familial succession which led to the barracks Emperors"?<BR>
> (Which is what I get for playtesting Imperium Romanum II.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
I stand corrected.  So much for my wife's memory of history.  My only<BR>
knowledge of this era is usually bout of history one receives in college<BR>
(19th and 20th century Europe is more my cup of tea) and reading meditations<BR>
- -- The Penguin Classics version (see, there is no way to avoid penguins on<BR>
the TML).<BR>
<BR>
Next time I'll verify my data before posting.<BR>
<BR>
Contritely, Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:16:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
<BR>
At 16:24 -0400 17/5/00, Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> wrote:<BR>
>This was actually produced? I NEVER saw it in the stores.<BR>
>Can anyone give a review of this product, was it any good?<BR>
>Was it a BITS/CORE product, or selfmade IG?<BR>
<BR>
I did review it at the time. It was an IG book. There are two good <BR>
adventures - The Khiidkar Incident (since corrected and reprinted) <BR>
and one by Joe Walsh called  'Reverse Assimilation'. There is another <BR>
louse James M Ward scenario like the Annililik Run.<BR>
<BR>
May dig out review.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:18:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
At 16:24 -0400 17/5/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>The US quit paying attention to World Court decisions back when several<BR>
>tribes of Native Americans won cases against the US for violating<BR>
>treaties with them.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't the US also give up on UN fees, or have they been paid now?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:21:30 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry writes:<BR>
>Same mentality goes into the two units.. Good Special Warfare troops are<BR>
>rarely good soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
For an interesting insight into the Spec War mind, I suggest "Rogue <BR>
Warrior" by Richard Marcinko.<BR>
<BR>
It also a good example what happens to wild & wooly shoot & loot types when <BR>
they lose their Rabbi.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:18:59 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
"Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
>Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> > If they were using Rev 1.0 Shadowrun, then they were not very good<BR>
> > munchkins, or even decent Min/Maxers.<BR>
> > Proper use of permanent spell locks, power focii and fetishes allowed for<BR>
> > some serious firepower.<BR>
>I (who was the GM) mostly disallowed such things, which probably<BR>
>explains why magicians had a bit of a hard time. Still, they could do<BR>
>some pretty amazing thing.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, so you modified it, so it really wasn't the same Shadowrun.<BR>
I was a part time GM for our SR campaign.  I'd weird out the mages by <BR>
having astrally scouting opforce mages attack their spell locks.  The rest <BR>
of the was really miffed about the fireballs popping out of their mage's <BR>
ears.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
For those who haven't played SR, earrings are a popular item to 'permance' <BR>
a 'contact required' spell like combat reflexes to.  The lock has a very <BR>
weak, but noticeable astral presence.  The astrally travelling mage would <BR>
cast a spell (i.e. the fireball) from the astral at the astral presence of <BR>
lock.  Once it overwhelmed the lock (destroying it in the process), the <BR>
remained of the spell's  power would  'ground out' in the material plane <BR>
where the lock was.  Hence the fireball coming out of the Mage's ear.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:35:29 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you<BR>
> >> and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >For crimes, no trial. Criminal trials 'in abstentia' are about as<BR>
> >"Unamerican" a process as you can have.  Arrest warrants,<BR>
> >fugitive status, and extradition proceedings will likely follow<BR>
> >for crimes.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't want to challenge your considerable knowledge of law, Steve, and I<BR>
> may be missing some crucial bit of info, but this has certainly happened in<BR>
> recent history, "'round these here parts" (Pennsylvania) at least. I'm not<BR>
> sure of the date but the noted conspiracy theorist and would-be hippie guru,<BR>
> Ira Einhorn, was convicted "in absentia" for the murder of Holly Maddux. So<BR>
> it seems that it does happen from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
And it was shockingly extraordinary.  The French decision to<BR>
extradite him to the US is still on appeal.  The original decision<BR>
to extradite him was granted only on the provision that he get a<BR>
new trial, and the Philadelphia District Attorney Lynn Abraham<BR>
agrees:<BR>
<BR>
"'We are committed to granting Einhorn a new trial -- if he comes<BR>
back to this country and if he asks for a new trial and does not<BR>
assert any privilege such as double jeopardy,' said Abraham."<BR>
<BR>
http://cnn.com/US/9902/18/justice.einhorn/<BR>
<BR>
So the 'in abstentia' conviction is absolutely meaningless.<BR>
Pennsylvania had to pass a law that such fugitives<BR>
tried in abstentia could be retried upon their return.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:38:25 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 04:18 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >And depending on which court is asking the question, that<BR>
> >may not matter.<BR>
><BR>
> The point I'm making is that it *does* matter what court is ruling on the question,<BR>
<BR>
We agree.  I'm saying that is the most important question.<BR>
<BR>
> because if it's not a US court it isn't likely to have any weight politically or practically in the US, and if it is a US court I find it hard to believe a decision based on unratified treaty would be sustained in the Supreme Court...or accepted by the other two branches for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
Generally speaking, you are right, of course.  But there have been<BR>
surprising examples in the past.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:35:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Flamebait, but I had to get this out of my system.<BR>
<BR>
Luther wrote:<BR>
> Hey, Independence Day was a movie with a great message: even if you're<BR>
> aliens with very advanced technology, don't screw with the U.S., or we'll<BR>
> kick your butts. What's not believable about that?<BR>
<BR>
If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes<BR>
the US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
<BR>
As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
place to get him killed.<BR>
<BR>
How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
<BR>
<cynic-mode><BR>
BTW, great message. Kind of like "We are the biggest kids in the<BR>
schoolyard... nya nya nya"<BR>
</cynic-mode><BR>
<BR>
M$T1C replied:<BR>
> Perhaps it's because I'm a European, but most of my friends found ID4<BR>
> at best funny.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, although it had some nifty special effects. The plot had a lot<BR>
of holes in it, though. Most of the people I know in Sweden were amused<BR>
by the movie as well.<BR>
<BR>
The fun part is... I know not one person in Sweden who wouldn't find<BR>
comments like Luther's comment above equally amusing.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2450<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2451<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: off line for a few days<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Imperial Gladiators<BR>
RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
RE: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: off line for a few days<BR>
RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Gladiators<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: off line for a few days<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:45:32 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'll be out of town and probably away from a computer for<BR>
> several days, so I'd appreciate it if you all would try not<BR>
> to write too much so that I don't have a big backlog of<BR>
> digests when I get back.  Otherwise I won't get any work<BR>
> done on Monday.<BR>
<BR>
Well let see...........<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ok.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:43:09 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 09:00 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> So basically if somebody (or some company) is taken to court for<BR>
> >> breaking some contract or agreement and they don't show nothing can<BR>
> >> happen until they're dragged into court?<BR>
><BR>
> >Contracts are civil law, so default judgment is likely,<BR>
> >assuming the court has jurisdiction.<BR>
><BR>
> But keep in mind, you can get into situation in the US of having<BR>
> dueling courts.<BR>
<BR>
Tell me about it.  I was in the first class of students to<BR>
take Conflict of Laws when it was offered at my<BR>
law school . . . for the first time in 17 years!  Why so<BR>
rarely offered?  Its too damned confusing for the<BR>
professors, to say nothing of the students<BR>
<BR>
> And then there are appeals...<g><BR>
<BR>
Actually, these conflict of law questions are most<BR>
often appeals cases from the get go, the trial court<BR>
kicking it upstairs as fast as it can, because that<BR>
determination will basically decide the whole case.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 04:02:55 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 5/17/00 9:04 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > <<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> > influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > << So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium<BR>
> > was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators that<BR>
> > don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
> ><BR>
> Too bad they couldn't have been a bit more historically accurate, instead of<BR>
> remakeing "Fall of the Roman Empire".<BR>
><BR>
> Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
> 'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
> because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
> married to an ancient history major.<BR>
<BR>
What?!  A string of good emperors?<BR>
<BR>
Although I know Gibbon has his biases, the picture he paints<BR>
of Commodus is very much like the movie, perhaps even better.<BR>
Gibbon reports that Commodus fought 734 gladiatorial fights<BR>
as Secutor (sword, helmet and buckler) against those in the<BR>
role of Retiarius (net and trident only), and was an exceptional<BR>
bowman, having killed many great beast (panthers, tigers, etc)<BR>
in the arena (suitably protected from their attacking him but there<BR>
is a story of him killing a panther with one arrow before it could<BR>
attack the human bait).<BR>
<BR>
What happened after Commodus was killed by the conspiracy<BR>
of his concubine Marcia, his chamberlain Eclectus, and his<BR>
Praetorian Prefect Laetus (actually, Marcia gave him a mickey<BR>
and a professional wrestler came in and strangled him)?<BR>
Pertinax is in charge for 86 days, until the Praetorian Guard<BR>
assassinates him (193 AD).  Then the Praetorian's sold the<BR>
office of emperor to Didius Julianus, who lasted 66 days,<BR>
the distant Roman generals finally getting in gear.  Eventually,<BR>
Septimus Severus is in charge, and he does manage to stay<BR>
there for 18 years and leadership passes to his two sons.<BR>
They play Cain and Abel (Caracalla murders Geta).  A few<BR>
years later, an official named Opilius Macrinus plotted Caracalla's<BR>
death.  Opilius lasts a year, until a military revolt kills him, putting<BR>
cross-dresser Elagabalus in charge.  He is killed for trying to<BR>
punish the Praetorians when they showed favoritism to Alexander<BR>
Severus, who succeeded Elagabalus.  Alexander holds title for<BR>
13 years until he is killed by the 8-foot tall Thracian Maximin.<BR>
Maximin goes about extorting money from every city in the<BR>
empire, while the Senate names some Gordian's to leadership.<BR>
Then Maximin's agents kill Gordians rather quickly . . .<BR>
blah, blah, blah.<BR>
<BR>
You call that "adoptive succession"?  The two sons who followed<BR>
their fathers to Emperor had short terms and were killed by<BR>
those close to them.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 04:18:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Didn't the US also give up on UN fees, or have they been paid now?<BR>
<BR>
Well, every year it has to be approved by Congress.<BR>
Lately, the Republicans try to attach a rider amendment<BR>
outlawing abortion, which the President won't sign.<BR>
Back and forth, back and forth.  So we're always late,<BR>
perhaps very late, but what is the UN gonna do but<BR>
spend on credit in the meantime?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:16:57 -0700<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Game Con (Re: Reminder: San Jose Traveller Meet - 20 May)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:33 AM 5/18/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Keith Johnson wrote:<BR>
> > Nice to see that some fellow Travellers will be there at the<BR>
> > convention.  I'll be running a GURPS Lite: Traveller game on Sunday, and a<BR>
> > MIB at the con will be running another GURPS Traveller game on Saturday.<BR>
><BR>
>So that's why the name sounded familiar when I looked at your Traveller<BR>
>games on the GameCon web site.<BR>
<BR>
In a GT game that I ran during DunDraCon I gave a group of Marines a few <BR>
tactical nuclear weapons and a target that was using a civilian population <BR>
as a shield.  What was I thinking?  Of course the innocent civilians got <BR>
nuked!  You can't help but to launch nukes in a role playing game if <BR>
someone is foolish enough to give them to you!<BR>
<BR>
The Game Con game is set in the same environment (GT:Lite rules, Long Night <BR>
pre-Imperial M:0 era in Corridor), however I won't be giving the players <BR>
nukes this time.  Think "European opportunists heading to the Americas <BR>
looking for gold."  GTL10 guns versus GTL7 is going to be very entertaining. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I'll be there running my infamous "Star Trek: Another Twist of the<BR>
>Knife" series.<BR>
<BR>
Arrghhh!!  I'm probably going to miss the Trav/Alternity game and your Trek <BR>
game is scheduled two hours after my game. :(<BR>
<BR>
Oy veh.  Hopefully, I'll see you near the SJ Games demo table on Saturday.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>One of our other San Jose meet players is running a<BR>
>Traveller/Alternity game; but, we've promised not to get the rope out<BR>
>until the game is over.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Wow!  That says something if the GT players aren't going to be lynched, <BR>
because someone else is playing Trav/Alternity.<BR>
<BR>
Let's hear it for progress! :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:30:42 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 00:04:53 EDT, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
><BR>
>No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
><BR>
><< So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
><BR>
>I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium <BR>
>was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
><BR>
>Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators that <BR>
>don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
One bad thing about the movie: My wife is now in love with Russell<BR>
Crowe. How can I compete?<BR>
<BR>
Me: Hey honey! I rebuilt an HP-UX server at work today!<BR>
<BR>
My wife: Great. DID YOU KNOW RUSSELL CRWE IS IN A BAND?! LET'S BUY THE<BR>
CD!<BR>
<BR>
Me: <slump> Yes dear.<BR>
<BR>
Sigh,<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"If a country is worth living in, it is worth fighting for."   -Manning Coles<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:09:42 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > on 5/17/00 9:04 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > <<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> > > influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > << So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium<BR>
> > > was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators that<BR>
> > > don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > Too bad they couldn't have been a bit more historically accurate, instead of<BR>
> > remakeing "Fall of the Roman Empire".<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
> > 'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
> > because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
> > married to an ancient history major.<BR>
><BR>
> What?!  A string of good emperors?<BR>
><BR>
> Although I know Gibbon has his biases, the picture he paints<BR>
> of Commodus is very much like the movie, perhaps even better.<BR>
> Gibbon reports that Commodus fought 734 gladiatorial fights<BR>
> as Secutor (sword, helmet and buckler) against those in the<BR>
> role of Retiarius (net and trident only), and was an exceptional<BR>
> bowman, having killed many great beast (panthers, tigers, etc)<BR>
> in the arena (suitably protected from their attacking him but there<BR>
> is a story of him killing a panther with one arrow before it could<BR>
> attack the human bait).<BR>
><BR>
> What happened after Commodus was killed by the conspiracy<BR>
> of his concubine Marcia, his chamberlain Eclectus, and his<BR>
> Praetorian Prefect Laetus (actually, Marcia gave him a mickey<BR>
> and a professional wrestler came in and strangled him)?<BR>
> Pertinax is in charge for 86 days, until the Praetorian Guard<BR>
> assassinates him (193 AD).  Then the Praetorian's sold the<BR>
> office of emperor to Didius Julianus, who lasted 66 days,<BR>
> the distant Roman generals finally getting in gear.  Eventually,<BR>
> Septimus Severus is in charge, and he does manage to stay<BR>
> there for 18 years and leadership passes to his two sons.<BR>
> They play Cain and Abel (Caracalla murders Geta).  A few<BR>
> years later, an official named Opilius Macrinus plotted Caracalla's<BR>
> death.  Opilius lasts a year, until a military revolt kills him, putting<BR>
> cross-dresser Elagabalus in charge.  He is killed for trying to<BR>
> punish the Praetorians when they showed favoritism to Alexander<BR>
> Severus, who succeeded Elagabalus.  Alexander holds title for<BR>
> 13 years until he is killed by the 8-foot tall Thracian Maximin.<BR>
> Maximin goes about extorting money from every city in the<BR>
> empire, while the Senate names some Gordian's to leadership.<BR>
> Then Maximin's agents kill Gordians rather quickly . . .<BR>
> blah, blah, blah.<BR>
><BR>
> You call that "adoptive succession"?  The two sons who followed<BR>
> their fathers to Emperor had short terms and were killed by<BR>
> those close to them.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
And we thought the line of sucession after Strephon's assaination was fun to<BR>
watch....<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 05:36:25 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
Rob types:<BR>
>Per the Dumarest books, there are arenas on many worlds, and<BR>
>travellers who end up penniless on one of these worlds will<BR>
>often as not be sold into "gladiator"-like servitude in order<BR>
>to amuse the jaded masses with violent bloodshed.  In Dumarest's<BR>
>case, there seems to be no real Imperial government, so the<BR>
>worlds build arenas (arenae?) as they like.  But in the 3I,<BR>
>where I believe slavery is outlawed (? Is that right ?), the<BR>
>gladiators would have to be managed like a sports team, eh?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>"Meet Big Eneri Ekalaakar and his Stainless Steel Swashbucklers<BR>
>from Strouden!  They're here to kill themselves a few of<BR>
>Raanaguun's Raiders of Regina tonight, and boy will it be nasty!"<BR>
<BR>
A look at Shadowrun's "Urban Brawl" sport would be a good source for this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:09:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
bloo wrote:<BR>
> I made this page, concerning canonical Spinward Marches<BR>
> noblility to help myself, and anyone else:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Its not much, so here it is:<BR>
> <BR>
> Spinward Marches<BR>
> Duke Regina: Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
>     Marquis Regina:  Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Is Norris the Marquis of Regina?  I would guess  yes  but  what's<BR>
your reference?<BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile he is also Baron of Yori, and a Count of somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:04:38 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: The Roc [mailto:roc@kewl.com.au]<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
> > That sounds great--similar to San Jose.  I hear that <BR>
> drive-ins are still<BR>
> > massively popular in India of all places.  I'll have to <BR>
> check that one<BR>
> > out some day.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Kristian<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, though I understand "Bollywood" has a thing for <BR>
> musicals!  And I can't<BR>
> recommend the ones I have seen as even good for a laugh - <BR>
> they are well<BR>
> above MY head!!  Must be an Indian thing? :^)<BR>
> <BR>
> -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
The Standard "Bollywood" Plot:<BR>
<BR>
Identical twin brothers separated at birth grow up on opposite sides of<BR>
the Law. Now one is a Policeman the other a Gangster. Both fall in love<BR>
with the same girl. There is a lot of singing and dancing. Everyone is<BR>
reconciled in the end, and the Gangster goes straight while his gang<BR>
goes to gaol.<BR>
<BR>
Moral of the plot: <BR>
<BR>
Don't get involved in working for a criminal, if his identical twin<BR>
brother is a cop...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 03:06:04 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
"Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > Ha! Ha! Ha!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hey, everybody, Glenn won't be able to get any work done if we<BR>
> > post too much.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ...let's double our output, I *know* we can do it! Glenn is<BR>
> > counting on us.<BR>
> <BR>
> Maybe a good way would be to point out to Peter Newman that a really good<BR>
> way to get lots of discussion going about his landgrab draft would be to<BR>
> mention the connection between the law level on his world and the local gun<BR>
> control laws. Law level C: only senators from California allowed to carry<BR>
> guns?<BR>
<BR>
What a good idea. :)<BR>
<BR>
Law Levels in Pax Rulin (circa 1117) by Planet<BR>
<BR>
10 Imperial Worlds<BR>
Law Levels are: 9, 9, 4, 9, 6, 1, 0, 9, 9, and 0<BR>
Modal Law Level is 9, Mean Law Level is 5.6, and<BR>
Median Law Level is 4.5<BR>
<BR>
6 Non Imperial Worlds - 2 client states, 1 3 member<BR>
polity, and 1 non aligned<BR>
Law Levels are 9, 9, 9, 4, 3, and 0<BR>
Mode is 9, Mean is 4.7 and Median is 4.5<BR>
<BR>
Law Levels in Pax Rulin by Population (as close as<BR>
we can get)<BR>
<BR>
57.098 billion (1 x 10^9) at LL 9<BR>
3 billion at LL 6<BR>
0.005 billion at LL 5<BR>
0.003 billion at LL 4<BR>
less than 1 million (400 or so) at LL 1<BR>
0.060 billion at LL 0<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:10:26 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>On 05/17/00 at 12:05 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>It is also possible that this whole tradition on jump dimming started<BR>
>>from an erroneous belief that it made a difference.<BR>
><BR>
> Or dimming lights was a Vilani religious/cultural tradition transfered<BR>
> over from earlier times.<BR>
><BR>
> Or dimming lights was to reduce the disorienting visual effects of<BR>
> entering jump space with poorly tuned jump coils. The need has gone<BR>
> away, but the tradition remains.<BR>
<BR>
Or someone min-maxing starship design fed the lighting circuit out of<BR>
the jump grip power feed because it had convienient cabling all over<BR>
the ship.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:15:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 21:19, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 5/17/00 9:04 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > <<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> > influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
> > <BR>
> > No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > << So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
> > <BR>
> > I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third<BR>
> > Imperium was a little trite. Also, it didn't occur to me for several<BR>
> > years  :  )<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators<BR>
> > that don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
> > <BR>
> Too bad they couldn't have been a bit more historically accurate, instead<BR>
> of remakeing "Fall of the Roman Empire".<BR>
> <BR>
> Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
> 'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
> because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
> married to an ancient history major.<BR>
<BR>
Consider it an action movie - nobody expects them to even remotely <BR>
resemble reality, so why should this?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:15:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 22:31, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 03:49 PM,  Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>I suspect the sh*t would hit the fan.  The US might not be *in* the UN,<BR>
> >>the UN might not have a building to meet in, if that happened.<BR>
> <BR>
> >You are forgetting about the other UN Headquarters, the one over here, in<BR>
> > Europe. In Geneve, if i am not mistaken.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, I was. <g><BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, I'm of the opinion that the UN is mostly a debating society. The<BR>
> *powers* are the US, the EU, Japan, Russia (less now, but anyone with that<BR>
> many nukes is a power), and eventually China. Hum, sounds like the<BR>
> Security Council doesn't it? All BB needs is one of them backing his play.<BR>
<BR>
The permanent members of the UN security council for a long time were <BR>
the nuclear powers: US, USSR, China, UK and France. That being the case <BR>
I can't see why it's so hard for people to understand why other <BR>
countries wanted nukes (aside from threatening their neighbours).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:28:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
On 17 May 00, at 23:51, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/18/00 at 11:50 AM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> All you need to do is look at the islamic countries in the middle east,<BR>
> >> especially Saudi Arabia.  Prayer disrupts the work day up to 3 times<BR>
> >> per day.  During the religious holidays (Haj & Rahmadan) most people<BR>
> >> celebrate well into the AM and come to work for only a half day.<BR>
> <BR>
> >However this doesn't apply to all religions, and many non-religious<BR>
> >societies could well have other, equally time-consuming, obligations. <BR>
> <BR>
> How about TML society where we are obligated to sit down and read hundreds<BR>
> of posts during the day instead of working.<BR>
> <BR>
> What? <BR>
> <BR>
> You mean we *aren't* obligated to read them?  <BR>
<BR>
Just thinking that latter thought (actually just being _able_ to think <BR>
that last thought) confirms you as a heretic, Eris. Naughty, naughty.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:35:30 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-17 16:24:43 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< There's a quite *simple* one. Use condemned criminals, and volunteers.<BR>
 Hell, that's essentially how the Roman games *started*. >><BR>
<BR>
Sort of. It was originally a funeral rite, as I recall, and became mass <BR>
entertainment later on when politicians like J. Caesar realized their value.<BR>
 <BR>
< And trust me, for the sort of money and fame that could be involved,<BR>
 you *would* get volunteers.><BR>
<BR>
The Romans did -- in the early days, a lot of the fights were rigged and <BR>
since a lot of fighters wore helmets that concealed their faces, it was <BR>
possible to fake a death and bring the same fighter back under a different <BR>
name -- so being a gladiator was not a lot more dangerous than some other <BR>
occupations. The emperor Commodus liked to play at being a gladiator (and <BR>
other stuff -- as Newsweek says, he liked to shoot arrows with <BR>
crescent-shaped heads at ostriches, beheading them -- they would run around <BR>
like decapitated chickens, which was considered a real hoot, so I gather). <BR>
<BR>
Later, as the crowd got wise, they started insisting on actual deaths (which <BR>
used up a lot more gladiators). There were also "hunts" where animals were <BR>
released and hunted by guys called "venatores," which gradually turned into <BR>
"sic the lions on the Christians," and went downhill from there. It got <BR>
pretty depraved after a while -- reminds me of the Fox network . . .<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:34:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
I respectfully differ in your opinion of Marcinko. Remember, he is in prison<BR>
for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
A better read for spec ops soldiers would be SEALS, the guy who wrote that<BR>
book was a member of Marcinko's unit: his portrayal of Marcinko is a major<BR>
contrast to how Marcinko portrays himself in his books.<BR>
<BR>
Having bumped elbows with a few of the real ones, most of them were focused<BR>
and reserved: those I saw could not shoot very well. (I was rangemaster at<BR>
an indoor shooting range, and can tell you for sure SEAL Team 2 [Circa<BR>
1987-1990] was not a candidate for anyone's marksmanship unit.) They were,<BR>
however, very fit and well-equipped.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:21 AM<BR>
Subject: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Doug Berry writes:<BR>
> >Same mentality goes into the two units.. Good Special Warfare troops are<BR>
> >rarely good soldiers.<BR>
><BR>
> For an interesting insight into the Spec War mind, I suggest "Rogue<BR>
> Warrior" by Richard Marcinko.<BR>
><BR>
> It also a good example what happens to wild & wooly shoot & loot types<BR>
when<BR>
> they lose their Rabbi.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ---<BR>
> urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
> "Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ---<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:35:38 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: off line for a few days<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 0:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 08:48 AM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I'll be out of town and probably away from a computer for<BR>
> >several days, so I'd appreciate it if you all would try not<BR>
> >to write too much so that I don't have a big backlog of<BR>
> >digests when I get back.  Otherwise I won't get any work<BR>
> >done on Monday.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ha! Ha! Ha!<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey, everybody, Glenn won't be able to get any work done if we post too<BR>
> much.<BR>
> <BR>
> ...let's double our output, I *know* we can do it! Glenn is counting on<BR>
> us.<BR>
<BR>
And I'm away from my PC over the weekend and can't help :( Hmm, maybe <BR>
that admission was a mistake...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:35:38 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 4:18, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Didn't the US also give up on UN fees, or have they been paid now?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, every year it has to be approved by Congress.<BR>
> Lately, the Republicans try to attach a rider amendment<BR>
> outlawing abortion, which the President won't sign.<BR>
> Back and forth, back and forth.  So we're always late,<BR>
> perhaps very late, but what is the UN gonna do but<BR>
> spend on credit in the meantime?<BR>
<BR>
I've always found it mind-boggling how the US Congress can attach <BR>
things to bills that have absolutely nothing to do with the bill in <BR>
question.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2451<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2452</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2452<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: International Waters [ObTrav]<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Traveller On-Line: caveat server<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
RE:Landgrab<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: RE:Landgrab<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:23:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters [ObTrav]<BR>
<BR>
This is a major problem in current international politics and deserves<BR>
clarifying. In fact, the UN is *not* the same as its member states at<BR>
all - that _was_ the case with the old League of Nations and was<BR>
thought to be a major reason for its failure so, when the UN was<BR>
constituted, it was specifically set up as an *independant* entity. In<BR>
fact, with a very few exceptions (the Security Council) only states<BR>
recognised by the UN are _permitted_ to join and in this sense the<BR>
nations exist only by the permission of the UN, rather than the other<BR>
way around.<BR>
<BR>
As a member of the Security Council, both the US and the UK (along<BR>
with the other "nuclear" states) are *permanent* members of the UN and<BR>
can't be kicked out in the same way others can. This (along with the<BR>
UN Council building being in the US) is what has led to the US to act<BR>
as if it is in charge of the UN rather than the other way around. It<BR>
repeatedly fails to pay its UN dues, ignores UN policy when it wants<BR>
to, ignores the UN World Court if it wants to and has been know to act<BR>
in the name of the UN without seeking UN permission to act first. Only<BR>
last year, a motion was passed in the General Council that referred to<BR>
the US as "the largest criminal state with an unquestioned membership"<BR>
of the UN. (This was in the motion to reform the Security Council and<BR>
is still under discussion).<BR>
<BR>
Traveller has a different state of affairs in that Cleon *personally*<BR>
created the Imperium as an independant entity separate even from Sylea<BR>
and permitted it to use military and other force. We can't treat the<BR>
Imperium as we would the UN and deal with inter-system laws as the<BR>
World Court does. In the Imperium, the military forces could - and<BR>
would - enforce their decisions on all the systems involved (even<BR>
Sylea). They can do that mainly because they do *not* rely on<BR>
contributions from member systems - in fact the Warrant of Restoration<BR>
doesn't even mention them - but because it is primarily a *commercial*<BR>
empire where power comes through and brings money. Unlike the UN,<BR>
where the wealth comes from the members, the Imperium *has* the wealth<BR>
and members join in order to share in it.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: 17 May 2000 21:19<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
><BR>
> IMO, the UN _is_ its member states.  It can only<BR>
> act through them (ok, and their voluntary funding<BR>
> of its organizations).  And its doubtful any state<BR>
> will pursue a UN policy that is contrary to its own.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> Its a question of who is interpreting a law.  Is it a Spanish court,<BR>
> with custody of a US-flagged supertanker than ran aground on<BR>
> the Canary Islands, making some determination about something<BR>
> that occured on board?  Or is it a New York Court of Appeals,<BR>
> trying to decide if what happened on a Turkish ship, which has<BR>
> since left for the high seas, is legal?<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:20:56 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>:<BR>
>I respectfully differ in your opinion of Marcinko. Remember, he is in prison<BR>
>for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
He's not in prison any more.  He did a very short stint in a low security <BR>
prison after three trials.<BR>
He probably did lots of stuff that would have been worth much more time in <BR>
tougher prisons, but there was nothing they could prove.  The Navy had a <BR>
hard enough time nailing on what they did, and considering the size of the <BR>
black budgets he was dealing with, he wouldn't have had to write the book <BR>
to cover his lawyer fees.  (The Navy charged him with skimming budgets and <BR>
selling Navy equipment).   He was in prison because he pissed off a lot of <BR>
Admirals, mostly in his Red Cell days.<BR>
<BR>
>A better read for spec ops soldiers would be SEALS, the guy who wrote that<BR>
>book was a member of Marcinko's unit: his portrayal of Marcinko is a major<BR>
>contrast to how Marcinko portrays himself in his books.<BR>
<BR>
Marcinko's books should have 70% edited for ego.  The 30% that's left is <BR>
still very interesting.<BR>
My point was that he was a loon.  Sane people won't do his  job.  When I <BR>
finished the book my first reaction was, 'Why wasn't he drummed out of the <BR>
Navy a whole lot sooner?'  My second reaction was that the Admirals who had <BR>
him removed (and tossed in jail) did the military a disservice.  He is the <BR>
kind of nut to that kind of job, as long as there was somebody to keep him <BR>
pointed in mostly harmless directions when not in the field.<BR>
<BR>
>Having bumped elbows with a few of the real ones, most of them were focused<BR>
>and reserved:<BR>
<BR>
Yup, the quiet ones are usually the dangerous ones.<BR>
<BR>
>those I saw could not shoot very well. (I was rangemaster at<BR>
>an indoor shooting range, and can tell you for sure SEAL Team 2 [Circa<BR>
>1987-1990] was not a candidate for anyone's marksmanship unit.) They were,<BR>
>however, very fit and well-equipped.<BR>
<BR>
Marcinko brought this up in his book.  Before his first tour in Viet-Nam, <BR>
his team trained at Camp Picket.<BR>
The ability to hit moving targets was a problem they spent a lot of ammo <BR>
on.  I'll have to check the dates, but I think that was after my dad was <BR>
the supply officer there (he had the problem of young officers with the .30 <BR>
caliber Ruger Blackhawks trying to skim M-1 Carbine ammo).<BR>
<BR>
Team Six, when formed, spent huge copious amounts of ammo on target training.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, your opinion of post Marcinko SEALs (re: marksmanship skills) matches <BR>
up his. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Monday special, two valiums with a coffee chaser.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:39:12 -0500<BR>
From: Joseph Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>> Sorry, wouldn't that be "last of a long string of rather good Emperors<BR>
>> because he allowed familial succession which led to the barracks Emperors"?<BR>
>> (Which is what I get for playtesting Imperium Romanum II.)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sam<BR>
> <BR>
> I stand corrected.  So much for my wife's memory of history.  My only<BR>
> knowledge of this era is usually bout of history one receives in college<BR>
> (19th and 20th century Europe is more my cup of tea) and reading meditations<BR>
> -- The Penguin Classics version (see, there is no way to avoid penguins on<BR>
> the TML).<BR>
<BR>
More importantly, Commodus was named Caeser by Marcus Aurelius at the age of<BR>
5! I think Joaquin Phoenix looked very mature for a 5-year-old. See:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.salve.edu/~romanemp/commod.htm<BR>
<BR>
Heck, this whole site is good for fans of Roman history:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.salve.edu/~romanemp/startup.htm<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:39:07 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller On-Line: caveat server<BR>
<BR>
The TOL server will be unstable the rest of this week.  I've<BR>
not wanted to bother with it the last few days, so I just<BR>
left it running more or less continuously.  However, last <BR>
night I started tweaking it again and so the 'database'<BR>
churns and the bugs start coming out.  You've been warned.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:51:00 -0500<BR>
From: Joseph Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
> Consider it an action movie - nobody expects them to even remotely<BR>
> resemble reality, so why should this?<BR>
<BR>
This is true, although it took two seeings of the movie for me to get into<BR>
this mode of thought.<BR>
<BR>
It just strikes me as somewhat strange that filmmakers set up a movie with<BR>
an apparent attempt at historical accuracy (including setting dates, doing a<BR>
decent job with sets and costumes, and so on), but then make the story a<BR>
pure fantasy. They did the same thing (kinda) with Dragonheart (beginning<BR>
the movie by dating it and placing it in a real historical timeperiod).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: How much does the average person in the Imperium know about the<BR>
historical facts of Cleon's rise to power? Have Imperial filmmakers cast<BR>
Cleon as the victorious general whose wife and family are killed by evil<BR>
Sylean nobles jealous of his victories? Does he make a daring escape on an<BR>
attempt on his own life by jumping into a lake just as his summer home<BR>
behind him explodes into flames? Does he meet up with a somewhat cowardly<BR>
yet likeable rogue with a heart of gold who ends up as a sidekick? Does he<BR>
later sneak into the compound of his enemies and kill them and all of their<BR>
bodyguards mano-on-mano with gun, knife, and fist (after a fashionable scene<BR>
where he straps all his battle gear and weapons onto his rippling-muscle<BR>
body)?<BR>
<BR>
It all happened. Sure it did.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:24:50 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE:Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
I have also had to deal with Real Life(TM) issues of late. Also, since I have taken two systems with previously published data (Efate/Regina and Bowman/District 268) I'm digging for details to stay on track with canon.<BR>
<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:07:41 +0200<BR>
From: Steve Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
<BR>
I have Spirelle about 85% complete, but I am on a trip out of country<BR>
(Spacejens, I am in Linkoping), so I cannot really finish it off until I get<BR>
home.  So I would expect the Spirelle writeup to appear in the first week of<BR>
June.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton<BR>
Jetlagged in Sweden<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:50:46 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn schrieb:<BR>
 <BR>
[snip] <BR>
> The permanent members of the UN security council for a long time were<BR>
> the nuclear powers: US, USSR, China, UK and France. That being the case<BR>
> I can't see why it's so hard for people to understand why other<BR>
> countries wanted nukes (aside from threatening their neighbours).<BR>
<BR>
It is not hard for people to understand. It is just hard for people to<BR>
allow.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:11:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: RE:Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
> I have also had to deal with Real Life(TM) issues of late. Also, since I have<BR>
taken two systems with previously published data (Efate/Regina and<BR>
Bowman/District 268) I'm digging for details to stay on track with canon.<BR>
><BR>
One great service someone could provide for the TML landgrab:<BR>
List canonical references on every world in the Spinward Marches,<BR>
such as adventures, JTAS articles, and so on. So if someone<BR>
wanted to do a writeup about the planet Mastev, they would know<BR>
to track down JTAS issue 56, supplement 14 ("academics") and<BR>
other works with info on the planet.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:45:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Tod wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Too bad they couldn't have been a bit more historically accurate, instead<BR>
of<BR>
>remakeing "Fall of the Roman Empire".<BR>
><BR>
>Minor detail like the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the last of the<BR>
>'barracks' emperors and the first of a long string of rather good emperors<BR>
>because he instituted adoptive succesion.  This is what I get for being<BR>
>married to an ancient history major.<BR>
<BR>
I think you have this the wrong way around. Marcus Aurelius came at the end<BR>
of a series of emperors who were chosen by their predecessors. He really did<BR>
leave the Empire to his son Commodus, and as far as I remember Commodus<BR>
really was a terrible emperor. Even though they got this right, Gladiator<BR>
films aren't about historical accuracy. They're about heavily muscled men,<BR>
left with no choice but to fight and die in the hot sun for the pleasure of<BR>
the jaded, bloodthirsty masses.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:49:31 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>More importantly, Commodus was named Caeser by Marcus Aurelius at the age<BR>
of<BR>
5! I think Joaquin Phoenix looked very mature for a 5-year-old. See:<<BR>
<BR>
Named him as Caesar but Marcus Aurelius didn't die until Commodus was 19. It<BR>
was quite common to name a successor well before it became an issue.<BR>
Commodus could hardly have did all his gladiator stuff while a child.<BR>
Meanwhile the movie also glossed over the fact that Commodus ruled for 12<BR>
years. Too bad, they could have fit in a whole lot more hacking in the movie<BR>
in that case. :)<BR>
Roman history gets so confusingly complex with who is Emperor, who was<BR>
Caeser, who killed who and why and a ton of other things.<BR>
Some fun notes:<BR>
Emperor -> Imperator -> essentially "Worthy to lead Romans"  A purely<BR>
military accolade at first, it later became a "must have" for any real<BR>
legitimacy, especially during the Barracks Emperors period. Later, it became<BR>
the default title for whoever held the throne.<BR>
Caeser -> A family name meaning "a head of hair" although Julius was bald.<BR>
For accuracy in Latin recall there is no soft "C" so it should be pronounced<BR>
"Kaeser" almost identical to the German "Kaiser" which is of course a<BR>
borrowed word. Because of the adoptions following the death of C.Julius<BR>
Caesar it came to signify the family of the ruler. Even those not of the<BR>
family adopted the name as a legitimizing factor. Sort of like all 3I<BR>
Emperors calling themselves Zhunastus's if they were inclined. Later under<BR>
Diocletian or Constantine the Great (sorry, memory fails me) it came to be<BR>
the title of the heir similar to the use of Dauphine in France or Prince of<BR>
Wales in England or King of Rome for the HRE.<BR>
Augustus ->essentially "really cool" Originally a title of honor granted to<BR>
Octavian it became used as his common name and was then added to the horde<BR>
of titles accorded to whoever took over the Empire. Later when Caeser was<BR>
redefined it became the official title of the ruling Emperor.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Aside from the one mentioned, what are the High Sylean and 3I<BR>
equivalents of the above?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:55:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>><<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
>> influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
><BR>
>No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
<BR>
I guess that settles it then. I amend my statement to "The Third Imperium is<BR>
strongly influenced by ancient Rome." Happy?<BR>
<BR>
>><< So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
>><BR>
>I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium<BR>
>was a little trite.<BR>
<BR>
Trite? C'mon, what's trite about cutting real world history free from its<BR>
context and mapping it over a truly massive stellar empire? I mean, there<BR>
are cat-men samurai and guys with strange mental powers who wear turbans...<BR>
but you couldn't find the room for a few tired gladiators, fighting for<BR>
freedom under alien suns?<BR>
<BR>
>Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
<BR>
Ah, the truth comes out. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators<BR>
that<BR>
>don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:05:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>However this doesn't apply to all religions, and many non-religious<BR>
>>societies could well have other, equally time-consuming, obligations.<BR>
><BR>
>How about TML society where we are obligated to sit down and read hundreds<BR>
of posts during >the day instead of working.<BR>
><BR>
>What?<BR>
><BR>
>You mean we *aren't* obligated to read them?<BR>
<BR>
Eris, if I'm not mistaken, Rupert did say "non-religious societies". With<BR>
the frequent talk about canon and heresy I'm not sure that the TML falls<BR>
into that category. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:05:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Pete wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>One bad thing about the movie: My wife is now in love with Russell<BR>
>Crowe. How can I compete?<BR>
><BR>
>Me: Hey honey! I rebuilt an HP-UX server at work today!<BR>
><BR>
>My wife: Great. DID YOU KNOW RUSSELL CRWE IS IN A BAND?! LET'S BUY THE<BR>
>CD!<BR>
><BR>
>Me: <slump> Yes dear.<BR>
<BR>
I hate to break it to you like this, so impersonally, but I think that it's<BR>
time for you to enter the arena and win back the love of your wife. It's the<BR>
only way.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:06:57 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to Regurgitate an old thread, but:<BR>
<BR>
>As I remember the Marines used very bad tactical judgement too.  They <BR>
>collected the ammo so no one would set off the reactor then they entered an <BR>
>alien controlled area with no escape/retreat option and no way to fight it <BR>
>out.  Didn't these guys know anything about sending in a 2 man recon before <BR>
>committing the whole unit.<BR>
*snip*<BR>
<BR>
You've got to put it in context with the texts on the subject which came<BR>
later, you'll find out that The Mighty Colonial Marine Corps was a group of<BR>
soldiers that rarely experience battle with a creature like these aliens.<BR>
Thier normal adversary in the case of a "Stand Up Fight" is a creature that<BR>
is the size of an elephant and decked with armour plating, and is generally<BR>
a nuissance because it enjoys crushing things....<BR>
The "Bug Hunt" is looking for relatively non-lethal creatures.....<BR>
After years of fighting a mobile mostly harmless creatures, or slow<BR>
agressive creatures a loss of skills can occur due to thier over egotism.<BR>
The colonial marines do believe they are the most dangerous thing in the<BR>
galaxy because normally they are, they have weapons systems beyond belief...<BR>
Hudson mentions some of the assortment on 1 APC, Phased plasma pulse rifles,<BR>
RPGs, sonic electronic ball breakers, nukes, knives, and sharp sticks.<BR>
They rely on thier gadgets to achieve the aim of their work, not thier tactics.<BR>
<BR>
They Cheyenne class dropship istelf is a weapons platform, made to deliver<BR>
its ordinance, and bug out, it apparently "handles like a cow. If it's<BR>
carrying a load, make that a drunken cow" this is the perfect summation of<BR>
the colonial marine thinking.<BR>
For the soldiers based off the troopers from starship troopers, firepower is<BR>
what wins fights, not tactics.<BR>
<BR>
And on the topic of using synthetic people to scout the reactor, the only<BR>
thing stopping that idea is the cost, at around 1 Million each, people are<BR>
more expendable<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:56:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 08:48 PM 5/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Even better was a comment by an American journalist Dave Berry, who<BR>
>explained that the reason that we were able to plant a computer virus in the<BR>
>alien's ship is the same reason that the aliens came to Earth to destroy us<BR>
>in the first place: the aliens, like everyone else, were forced to use<BR>
>Microsoft products.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Barry  is a humorist, and a damn good one at that.  He's also in a<BR>
band with Stephen King.<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Goldblum used a Mac to wipe out the mothership.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:06:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 09:35 AM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Flamebait, but I had to get this out of my system.<BR>
<BR>
>If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes<BR>
>the US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
>patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
<BR>
Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a camp<BR>
SF movie.<BR>
<BR>
>As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
>place to get him killed.<BR>
<BR>
We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"  This<BR>
thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But it<BR>
was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours, and<BR>
things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
<BR>
>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
<BR>
Because all the characters were American?  Jens, you are really reading to<BR>
much into this movie, which was never intended as a serious film.<BR>
<BR>
><cynic-mode><BR>
>BTW, great message. Kind of like "We are the biggest kids in the<BR>
>schoolyard... nya nya nya"<BR>
></cynic-mode><BR>
<BR>
We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
moment.<BR>
<BR>
>Agreed, although it had some nifty special effects. The plot had a lot<BR>
>of holes in it, though. Most of the people I know in Sweden were amused<BR>
>by the movie as well.<BR>
<BR>
So were we.  Most times I saw ID4 the audience was laughing and cheering<BR>
and having a great time.  At no point did spontaneous performances of the<BR>
Star-Spangled Banner break out, nor was there a massive rush to enlist in<BR>
the military.  It was a big summer movie.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:11:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
At 07:34 AM 5/18/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I respectfully differ in your opinion of Marcinko. Remember, he is in prison<BR>
>for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
He hasn't been in prison for a long time.  He is now a very successful<BR>
author and motivational speaker.<BR>
<BR>
>Having bumped elbows with a few of the real ones, most of them were focused<BR>
>and reserved: those I saw could not shoot very well.<BR>
<BR>
I've met Marcinko when he did a book signing in SF.  He was vary polite,<BR>
soft-spoken, and took a moment to chat with each person in line.  But<BR>
looking at him, I could see where he might be very loud in the right<BR>
circumstances.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:15:50 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  You first, we'll cheer.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I hate to break it to you like this, so impersonally, but I think that<BR>
it's<BR>
> time for you to enter the arena and win back the love of your wife. It's<BR>
the<BR>
> only way.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:20:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
<BR>
Marcinko was the ultimate non-team player in what was supposed to be the<BR>
ultimate team.<BR>
<BR>
To be fair, SEAL teams don't do a whole lot of shooting, Operationally, it's<BR>
just not done. They spend much more time practicing dives, jumps, and other<BR>
types of insertions and extractions. PT was and is the biggest part of their<BR>
training maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 6:20 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>:<BR>
> >I respectfully differ in your opinion of Marcinko. Remember, he is in<BR>
prison<BR>
> >for a reason.<BR>
><BR>
> He's not in prison any more.  He did a very short stint in a low security<BR>
> prison after three trials.<BR>
> He probably did lots of stuff that would have been worth much more time in<BR>
> tougher prisons, but there was nothing they could prove.  The Navy had a<BR>
> hard enough time nailing on what they did, and considering the size of the<BR>
> black budgets he was dealing with, he wouldn't have had to write the book<BR>
> to cover his lawyer fees.  (The Navy charged him with skimming budgets and<BR>
> selling Navy equipment).   He was in prison because he pissed off a lot of<BR>
> Admirals, mostly in his Red Cell days.<BR>
><BR>
> >A better read for spec ops soldiers would be SEALS, the guy who wrote<BR>
that<BR>
> >book was a member of Marcinko's unit: his portrayal of Marcinko is a<BR>
major<BR>
> >contrast to how Marcinko portrays himself in his books.<BR>
><BR>
> Marcinko's books should have 70% edited for ego.  The 30% that's left is<BR>
> still very interesting.<BR>
> My point was that he was a loon.  Sane people won't do his  job.  When I<BR>
> finished the book my first reaction was, 'Why wasn't he drummed out of the<BR>
> Navy a whole lot sooner?'  My second reaction was that the Admirals who<BR>
had<BR>
> him removed (and tossed in jail) did the military a disservice.  He is the<BR>
> kind of nut to that kind of job, as long as there was somebody to keep him<BR>
> pointed in mostly harmless directions when not in the field.<BR>
><BR>
> >Having bumped elbows with a few of the real ones, most of them were<BR>
focused<BR>
> >and reserved:<BR>
><BR>
> Yup, the quiet ones are usually the dangerous ones.<BR>
><BR>
> >those I saw could not shoot very well. (I was rangemaster at<BR>
> >an indoor shooting range, and can tell you for sure SEAL Team 2 [Circa<BR>
> >1987-1990] was not a candidate for anyone's marksmanship unit.) They<BR>
were,<BR>
> >however, very fit and well-equipped.<BR>
><BR>
> Marcinko brought this up in his book.  Before his first tour in Viet-Nam,<BR>
> his team trained at Camp Picket.<BR>
> The ability to hit moving targets was a problem they spent a lot of ammo<BR>
> on.  I'll have to check the dates, but I think that was after my dad was<BR>
> the supply officer there (he had the problem of young officers with the<BR>
.30<BR>
> caliber Ruger Blackhawks trying to skim M-1 Carbine ammo).<BR>
><BR>
> Team Six, when formed, spent huge copious amounts of ammo on target<BR>
training.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, your opinion of post Marcinko SEALs (re: marksmanship skills) matches<BR>
> up his. :-)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ---<BR>
> urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
> Monday special, two valiums with a coffee chaser.<BR>
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- ---<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:45:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> I posted a first draft of a planet to the TML and invited<BR>
> comment. I received no comment. Therefore I did not revise<BR>
> my entry. If I repost it will anyone comment on it?<BR>
<BR>
My long days of toil on Yori won me a gratifying whole 7 words of<BR>
response (all from just 1 person ... thanks Benyamene'ZeAbe').  I<BR>
admit I've been just as bad as everyone else in commenting on the<BR>
Landgrabs.  And so (from the current web site listings) ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ylaven/Lanth<BR>
- ------------<BR>
- - The culture stats needs a text write-up.<BR>
<BR>
- - The legendary figure from History needs more  details:  like  a<BR>
  name and is he reverred as a religious icon or just a person of<BR>
  historical note.<BR>
<BR>
- - Showing the zones and 100d jump limit on the system stats is  a<BR>
  nice idea.<BR>
<BR>
- - Although interdicted, are the locals aware of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
L'oeil d'Dieu/Aramis<BR>
- --------------------<BR>
<BR>
- - Under "Geography"  is  a  line  that  says  L'oeil d'Dieu  only<BR>
  receives 91% of the insulation of Terra.  Shouldn't this by 91%<BR>
  of the *radiation* of Terra?<BR>
<BR>
- - I like the "Notable Creatures".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Wypoc/Lanth<BR>
- -----------<BR>
<BR>
- - Many typos including  "Wypock",  "wypoc"  (no  capital),  "hell<BR>
  hole" (as two words), "prensent", "inneeding", etc.<BR>
<BR>
- - More details about the human population's culture,  facilities,<BR>
  etc are needed.<BR>
<BR>
(A interesting start ... I look forward to more.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Prilissa/Trin's Veil<BR>
- --------------------<BR>
<BR>
What's there looks good and I look forward to the  completion  of<BR>
the remaining sections.  The topology map is excellant,  how  was<BR>
it made?  The climate map and  political  map  are  missing.  The<BR>
system profile diagram is reminanisant of those by DGP.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Moughas/Regina<BR>
- --------------<BR>
<BR>
So  far  so  good.   Something  about  the  starport  and   trade<BR>
information would be  nice.  And  maybe  a  bit  more  about  the<BR>
general air or feel of the place ... things visitors  might  pick<BR>
up on.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Peter, if you repost your entry I'll try to give it a proper look<BR>
this time.  Ditto to anyone else who's posted to the  TML  rather<BR>
than do a web page.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2452<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2453<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
JTAS Chat tonight<BR>
Re: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Aliens...military "coincidences"...<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions [warning: indelicate]<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
Re: Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:43:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: JTAS Chat tonight<BR>
<BR>
There's a fair to middling chance that Andy Lilly will also be at the <BR>
JTAS chat tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:20:10 -0700<BR>
From: Jim Cooper <tloql@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Request for software testers<BR>
<BR>
I too would like to volunteer to test the Excel 5 version. Sorry, can't<BR>
do the comparison though.<BR>
<BR>
Jim Cooper<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
> http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
> Wanted! Volunteer(s) to test the Excel 5 version of 'The Traveller<BR>
> Trader Spreadsheet'. This spreadsheet calculates the expected profit<BR>
> on all systems in jump range using the MegaTraveller trade rules.<BR>
> This version has been saved back as Excel 5 from 97, and we need<BR>
> someone to try it out and see if it works. If you have both Excel 97<BR>
> and Excel 5 to run a comparison it'd be excellent.<BR>
><BR>
> There's no reward, but we'd appreciate it if someone could help so<BR>
> this software can be used by more people.<BR>
><BR>
> email me at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com if you can help.<BR>
><BR>
> Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
> -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
>                   BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
>   http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
> Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
> GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
> BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
> All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:42:24 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
> flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a camp<BR>
> SF movie.<BR>
<BR>
Hehe... I know, but I kind of detest that excuse for a movie. But you've<BR>
all guessed that by now I think  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Lets just say that the movie appeared here during early Autumn, without<BR>
any visible connection to your indepence day (the holiday, not the<BR>
movie).<BR>
<BR>
> We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"  This<BR>
> thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But it<BR>
> was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours, and<BR>
> things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
<BR>
As I said, some nifty special effects but a lousy plot. If you manage to<BR>
find the off-switch for your brain, it's not that bad really.<BR>
<BR>
> Because all the characters were American?  Jens, you are really reading to<BR>
> much into this movie, which was never intended as a serious film.<BR>
<BR>
OK... sorry...<BR>
<BR>
> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
> moment.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
 (without the headache and generally bad temper of yesterday)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:43:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >> In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you<BR>
> > >> and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >For crimes, no trial. Criminal trials 'in abstentia' are about as<BR>
> > >"Unamerican" a process as you can have.  Arrest warrants,<BR>
> > >fugitive status, and extradition proceedings will likely follow<BR>
> > >for crimes.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I don't want to challenge your considerable knowledge of law, Steve, and I<BR>
> > may be missing some crucial bit of info, but this has certainly happened in<BR>
> > recent history, "'round these here parts" (Pennsylvania) at least. I'm not<BR>
> > sure of the date but the noted conspiracy theorist and would-be hippie guru,<BR>
> > Ira Einhorn, was convicted "in absentia" for the murder of Holly Maddux. So<BR>
> > it seems that it does happen from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
Einhorn also fled _during_ the trial, not before. He DID have his chance<BR>
at a say, so while he was absent, it wasn't entirely a 'trial in<BR>
absentia', which is when the defendant is not ever present or not<BR>
allowed to be present during his trial.<BR>
<BR>
It's also ENTIRELY the fault of the judge in the case, who should have<BR>
declared a mistrial the moment it was clear Einorn had fled. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:41:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Jen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Flamebait, but I had to get this out of my system.<BR>
<BR>
Not flamebait, really, it just comes across as a general sort of silliness.<BR>
<BR>
>If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes<BR>
>the US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
>patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
<BR>
The movie was called Independence Day. It was released around the time of a<BR>
major US holiday, also known as Independence Day. It pays homage to (or rips<BR>
off, depending on your vantage point) just about *every* major "aliens<BR>
invade earth" movie ever made. It was never intended to accurately reflect<BR>
the events which would happen in the case of a real alien invasion. The<BR>
"alien invasion" genre of films is almost purely American, an artifact of<BR>
the cold war, specifically an artifact of the space race.<BR>
<BR>
It's not really a big surprise that such a movie would feature Americans as<BR>
heroes.<BR>
<BR>
>As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
>place to get him killed.<BR>
<BR>
Hell yeah. That's where the leaders *should* be. It's right there, contained<BR>
in the word: lead-er. They should be in the lead!<BR>
<BR>
>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, it's because Americans are smarter and more observant. Don't cry<BR>
too much though, we "ugly Americans" did have the common courtesy to call up<BR>
the rest of the world (with morse code, even) and tell them that there were<BR>
gaping holes in the plot which could be exploited. Whoops. I meant "gaping<BR>
holes in the alien ships". Sorry. :)<BR>
<BR>
><cynic-mode><BR>
>BTW, great message. Kind of like "We are the biggest kids in the<BR>
>schoolyard... nya nya nya"<BR>
></cynic-mode><BR>
<BR>
The fact that you read that message into a movie which was intended to be<BR>
nothing but pure escapist entertainment says more about you and your<BR>
attitude toward the US than about the movie itself. The message I read is,<BR>
"we have the most massive and technologically advanced system for producing<BR>
movies in the world, so we can be the heroes in our movies if we want." Get<BR>
your own gazillion dollar entertainment apparatus and then maybe, just<BR>
maybe, Sweden can save the world. Until then, we'll keep the world safe from<BR>
the nasty extra-terrestrials and help the nice ones to escape the evil<BR>
American authorities.<BR>
<BR>
>Agreed, although it had some nifty special effects. The plot had a lot<BR>
>of holes in it, though. Most of the people I know in Sweden were amused<BR>
>by the movie as well.<BR>
<BR>
It would appear to me that you have this really bizarre vision of what life<BR>
in America is like. It may surprise you to know that many Americans were<BR>
amused by the movie as well. It was certainly an amusing movie. I'm curious<BR>
to know how you thought this movie was received in America.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:51:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 18 May 00, at 4:18, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Didn't the US also give up on UN fees, or have they been paid now?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Well, every year it has to be approved by Congress.<BR>
> > Lately, the Republicans try to attach a rider amendment<BR>
> > outlawing abortion, which the President won't sign.<BR>
> > Back and forth, back and forth.  So we're always late,<BR>
> > perhaps very late, but what is the UN gonna do but<BR>
> > spend on credit in the meantime?<BR>
<BR>
There's also Jesse "I hates them commie furriners" Helms who is head of<BR>
the Senate Foreign Bad Relations committee who consistently refuses to<BR>
let appropriations bills related to UN dues out of his commitee to a<BR>
vote.<BR>
 <BR>
> I've always found it mind-boggling how the US Congress can attach<BR>
> things to bills that have absolutely nothing to do with the bill in<BR>
> question.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
One of the greatly abused practices of the democratic process in this<BR>
country, practiced at all levels. Some of the crap that our State lege<BR>
does is just as bad or worse.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:01:18 EDT<BR>
From: Diespamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Aliens...military "coincidences"...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-15 23:14:23 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< - - The only supplies that didn't arrive were the only ones needed... >><BR>
<BR>
Greetings:<BR>
<BR>
It's been a long time since I've seen the movie "A Bridge Too Far" (and a <BR>
**much** longer time since I read the book), but I recall one particularly <BR>
heart-wrenching scene when the embattled British paras recover one of the <BR>
supply canisters that the RAF kept dropping too close to the German <BR>
lines...only to find it filled with maroon berets!<BR>
<BR>
And another scene in the movie, at the end, when Hannibal Lector (Anthony <BR>
Hopkins, well, he hadn't turned cannibal then) has been captured by the <BR>
German forces. The German officer in charge gives him some excellent British <BR>
chocolate with the comment about how they've been recovering food and lots of <BR>
other great supplies for several days...<BR>
<BR>
History is full of interesting stories like this. Like during the American <BR>
Civil War when the Union was unable to transport boats because they were <BR>
built too large for the canals...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Kiesche<BR>
(Traveller Since 1977)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:08:08 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> The Standard "Bollywood" Plot:<BR>
> <BR>
> Identical twin brothers separated at birth grow up on opposite sides of<BR>
> the Law. Now one is a Policeman the other a Gangster. Both fall in love<BR>
> with the same girl. There is a lot of singing and dancing. Everyone is<BR>
> reconciled in the end, and the Gangster goes straight while his gang<BR>
> goes to gaol.<BR>
> <BR>
> Moral of the plot:<BR>
> <BR>
> Don't get involved in working for a criminal, if his identical twin<BR>
> brother is a cop...<BR>
<BR>
Wow, stolen directly from John Woo, except for the musical part, and the<BR>
bits in between where the cop goes and shoots everybody in slow motion,<BR>
with two pistols, including the crime lord who killed his lovanble<BR>
brother the gangster.<BR>
<BR>
And if Jackie Chan's in it theres comedy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:46:10 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> Ylaven/Lanth<BR>
> ------------<BR>
<BR>
Uh-oh,  This is what I get for being second on the list.  Isn't Doug's write-up<BR>
on the web somewhere.  I know he posted at least some of it to the list.<BR>
<BR>
> - The culture stats needs a text write-up.<BR>
<BR>
As does nearly everthing else ;)<BR>
<BR>
> - The legendary figure from History needs more  details:  like  a<BR>
>   name and is he reverred as a religious icon or just a person of<BR>
>   historical note.<BR>
<BR>
Good, this tells me what people find interesting in the background and what I<BR>
need to flesh-out to satisfy you.<BR>
<BR>
> - Showing the zones and 100d jump limit on the system stats is  a<BR>
>   nice idea.<BR>
<BR>
Why thank you.<g><BR>
<BR>
> - Although interdicted, are the locals aware of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
The straight forward answer to that is 'no'.  But it aught to be explained in<BR>
more detail as the why.<BR>
<BR>
Can I add a note myself?<BR>
 - I am convinced I've messed up royally with the figures for at least the<BR>
Masses on the Zones table.  I'll need to go over them all again...:(<BR>
<BR>
I aught to return the favour and write a few comments on at least one other<BR>
site.  Now who should I chose?  Ah yes, Peter.  Let's have a look at Yori.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:46pm up 11 days, 23:48, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:09:14 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions [warning: indelicate]<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 06:08 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote: >So am I<BR>
> >correct in understanding that 34 is a significant >part of the then Mr.<BR>
> >Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify 34 cm >perhaps? If so your TU is<BR>
> >seems somewhat indelicate.<BR>
> <BR>
> >It could be inches if he uses GT.<BR>
> <BR>
> Great googly mooglies! <BR>
<BR>
I know what _you've_ been reading.<BR>
<BR>
> He just went from being a horse to being a sperm whale!<BR>
<BR>
We have this great framed poster on the wall of our living room. Titled <BR>
"Penises of the Animal Kingdom", in 144-point type, it shows a variety <BR>
of, um, equipment, all shown erect at 1/5 scale. The title is actually <BR>
somewhat misleading, as the only penises chosen were mammalian and <BR>
larger than human. <BR>
<BR>
Useful both for evaluating the personalities of new visitors to the <BR>
house and for keeping things in perspective.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/house06.jpg<BR>
http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/einst09.jpg<BR>
<BR>
That's whales and elephants on the left...<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:21:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
samwise1" posted:<BR>
<<<<<<BR>
<snip><BR>
Some fun notes:<BR>
Emperor -> Imperator -> essentially "Worthy to lead Romans"<BR>
<snip><BR>
Caeser -> A family name meaning "a head of hair"<BR>
<snip><BR>
Augustus ->essentially "really cool" <BR>
<snip><BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
So "Caeser Augustus Imperator" is a really cool hairy head<BR>
leading a bunch of guys in togas.<BR>
<BR>
Huh. Sounds like a university frat party.<BR>
<BR>
David Smart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:36:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Is Norris the Marquis of Regina?  I would guess  yes  but  what's<BR>
> your reference?<BR>
<BR>
I can't recall off hand, but I didn't make it up.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'll have to provide citations for everything. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:45:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Einhorn also fled _during_ the trial, not before.<BR>
<BR>
Every source I've seen said he 'jumped bail'  pre-trial.<BR>
Not that it matters.<BR>
<BR>
> He DID have his chance at a say, so while he was absent, it wasn't entirely a<BR>
> 'trial in absentia', which is when the defendant is not ever present or not<BR>
> allowed to be present during his trial.<BR>
<BR>
So, at exactly what point in the trial did he flee?<BR>
During the prosecution?  During the defense?<BR>
Obviously it was before the close of the defense,<BR>
and that means he hasn't been validly convicted of<BR>
anything.<BR>
<BR>
> It's also ENTIRELY the fault of the judge in the case, who should have<BR>
> declared a mistrial the moment it was clear Einorn had fled.<BR>
<BR>
Whats the fault?  There is no _valid_ conviction of Einhorn.<BR>
Even Pennsylvania agrees that they _must_ retry him.  I suppose<BR>
you could say it was the fault of the bail judge, who let him<BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:25:36 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
At 11:37 AM 5/16/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>BTW, defenestration is one of my all-time favourite words. I just love<BR>
>the idea of having a word specifically for the act of throwing someone<BR>
>out of a window.<BR>
<BR>
not to mention being _much_ more sinister scaring than it really is.  I <BR>
don't remember where this came from, but I recall a conversation between a <BR>
female action hero and a male sidekick that went like this:<BR>
<BR>
FAH: I defenestrated him.<BR>
<BR>
MS: (with a pained look) That's terrible!!  How could you do that someone??!!!<BR>
<BR>
FAH: What, throw them out a window?  That's not that bad...<BR>
<BR>
MS:  Oh.  Is that what that word means?  Never mind...<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:32:21 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
At 09:33 PM 5/15/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>No, definately not !! IE is a _browser_ and the applications it runs<BR>
>by tying in with the operating system is exactly what Microsoft is in<BR>
>court for (well, one of them anyway). It is intended and able to run<BR>
>_browser_ apps rather than just _Web_ browser apps (and should do) but<BR>
>it is totally unsuitable for any other type of app, not least because<BR>
>Microsoft may very well be obliged to remove the support for them from<BR>
>the browser. It has some features that other browsers only offer by<BR>
>roundabout routes (like ActiveX support for example) but if you run a<BR>
>_browser_ app, you should use _browser_ support, not proprietary<BR>
>Microsoft features.<BR>
<BR>
You are right that it's meant as a framework for browser apps (as opposed <BR>
to other kinds of apps), but I don't see any reason to expect it to be <BR>
restricted to HTML standards.  I'd prefer if it supported the standards <BR>
better, but it's use of ActiveX allows for creation of (browser) apps that <BR>
exceed anything standard HTML allows.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:39:37 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
At 09:22 AM 5/16/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Ok I got it, when the decision is made to "Send in the Marines"  What<BR>
>kind of force shows up?  A Corps, A Division, A Battalion?  I'm speaking<BR>
>in general terms not all out war.  Picture a planetary conflict that the<BR>
>Imperials have decided has gone too far and they are going to put a stop<BR>
>to it.  Do they show up with overwhelming force or a token force and<BR>
>dare anyone to mess with them?<BR>
<BR>
They show up in overwhelming strength - at least a dozen marines.  :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:50:18 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:51 PM 5/16/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>discover up for religious debate and approval.  Can you see a world where<BR>
>all new scientific theories have to go though an approval process like that<BR>
>done for drugs before it can be published except in stead of doctors the<BR>
>approval board consists of schollar of the local holy rite with little if<BR>
>any scientific knowledge?  Think about that world's customs office...scarry!<BR>
<BR>
David Weber did that in "Heirs of Empire".  In a religious, anti-tech <BR>
society, all new inventions had to be approved by a priest to make sure <BR>
it's an improvement on an existing, approved technology, and not a "new" <BR>
idea, which are forbidden.  ISTR that one example used in the book, is <BR>
whether a plow with a steel blade was an improvement on the "premitted" <BR>
wooden-blade plow, or a new invention.<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:05:13 -0400<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
At 12:52 AM 5/17/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Except a Troll with a Panther Assault Cannon....<BR>
<BR>
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will<BR>
                          defend to the death your right to say it."<BR>
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire<BR>
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"<BR>
                          			     -- Albert Einstein<BR>
for PGP public-key and<BR>
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm<BR>
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:35:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 17 May 00, at 9:06, rgd@infinet.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>   Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
><BR>
> About TTL9, IMO. The main discovery was serendipitous, and could be <BR>
> discovered at ant TL from about 5 onwards, and most of the rest of a <BR>
> powergun is precision machining. The tricky bit is the liguid nitrogen <BR>
> bottles, which are noted as being null-conductive, and thus able to <BR>
> store nitrogen without leakage indefinately at room temperature.<BR>
<BR>
From what I recall reading back in the 1980s we may have a "good<BR>
enough" insulation now. The quote I recall was along the lines of "we<BR>
can ship a tank car of liquid helium across the country with only a 1<BR>
degree rise in temp. <BR>
<BR>
Liquid nitrogen is a lot warmer, so the temp diff isn't *nearly* as<BR>
bad. So, start with it at just above freezing and it ought to be good<BR>
for a month or two. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:41:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Gladiators<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Pete wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> You could use prisoners that have been condemned to death or long<BR>
>> imprisonment. They would be given a choice:<BR>
>><BR>
>> 1. Fight in the arena. Freedom after x number of games.<BR>
>> 2. Serve out your sentence.<BR>
><BR>
> Or you could just allow people to voluntarily enter<BR>
> a gladiatorial arena.  Suicide isn't illegal in the 3I.<BR>
><BR>
> You could have a whole range of duels, not just<BR>
> duels to the death, but<BR>
> - first blood,<BR>
> - last one standing,<BR>
> - team vs. team<BR>
> - tag team,<BR>
> - battle-royal (king of the hill)<BR>
> - sophonts vs. non-sophonts<BR>
> - and finally, the battle to the death.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, death may occur in any of these,<BR>
> but its only necessary in the death match.<BR>
<BR>
In keeping with both the spirit of the original games, and modern<BR>
gameshows, have it be "Fight until one can no longer fight". At the<BR>
point where one of the pair is unable to continue, the audience votes<BR>
(via keypad) whether to spare him (so he can give them another good<BR>
fight when he recovers) or kill him (maybe he did a lousy job of<BR>
fighting this time, or was the "evil masked character").<BR>
<BR>
Real "audience involvement", eh?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:53:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>>It's not the wastage of explosive that counts there. It's that if you<BR>
>>drop the bridge (suitably warped) "in place", you accomplish *multiple*<BR>
>>goals:<BR>
>><BR>
>>1. You prevent the use of the bridge for crossing the river<BR>
>>2. you force them to take it apart and *remove* it before they can<BR>
>>   replace it.<BR>
>>3. if the stream was navigable, you've blocked it.<BR>
>><BR>
> Forgot one<BR>
><BR>
> 4. If you drop it correctly on the up stream side you dam the stream with<BR>
> bridge against the midstream supports and flood the country side or failing<BR>
> that cause the stream to flush the bridge and its mid stream supports down<BR>
> river taking out very hard to replace pilings and/or midsteam<BR>
> supports/piers.<BR>
><BR>
> By the way how you take out a bridge depends on when you or if you expect to<BR>
> come back.  The degree of damage inflicted and on what side of the stream is<BR>
> occasionally calculated by how much time you expect it may take you to<BR>
> rebuild it when you return.<BR>
><BR>
> Little tip I was taught regarding taking out piers.   Always cut them at an<BR>
> angle if you aren't coming back.  This serves two purposes, anyone who has<BR>
> to repair the damage first has to level them off flat before rebuilding and<BR>
> second you can move the structure in the direction of the slope of the cut<BR>
> for maximum effect.<BR>
<BR>
You sound like the demolitions guy I knew about 25 years ago. He had<BR>
plans on how to take out all the river bridges in town (two were<BR>
particularly "elegant") as well as how to remove the obnoxiously tall<BR>
bank tower a California based bank had built by getting the plans<BR>
approved during a period when the normal height restriction on<BR>
buildings wasn't in effect (can you say "bribe"?).<BR>
<BR>
He had one floor blown out sideways to take out the federal courthouse,<BR>
and the rest playing "domino effect" to take out City Hall, the state<BR>
office building, the county courthouse,... :-)<BR>
<BR>
One of the bridges takes too much explanation. But the other is easy to<BR>
explain. It's a suspension bridge. And all he figured it would take is<BR>
cutting the "bolts" that held the towers onto the piers. Then wait for<BR>
the first good wind gust...<BR>
<BR>
> Was also taught that triple nickle 40 is the way to go for bridge abutments.<BR>
<BR>
Huh? "triple nickle 40" ??<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2453<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2454<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Apology re: Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
Landgrab Review - Yori<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re[2]: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re[2]: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
RE: Landgrab<BR>
Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: International Waters<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
Re : Comments on TML Landgrabs<BR>
Re : International Waters<BR>
Re: Re : Comments on TML Landgrabs<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:01:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 06:08 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>At 5:40 -0400 17/5/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote: >So am I<BR>
>>correct in understanding that 34 is a significant >part of the then Mr.<BR>
>>Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify 34 cm >perhaps? If so your TU is<BR>
>>seems somewhat indelicate.<BR>
><BR>
>>It could be inches if he uses GT.<BR>
><BR>
> Great googly mooglies! He just went from being a horse to being a sperm <BR>
> whale!<BR>
<BR>
Not hardly. I've *seen* horses. 34" isn't out of the question for them.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, 34 cm is big, but not outrageous. 34" means that there's no way in<BR>
*hell* he'll ever get more than what a friend calls a "limp-on". Slight<BR>
matter of blood volume and blood pressure.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 13:05:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a <BR>
> "popular"<BR>
>> drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature) for<BR>
>> that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
><BR>
> That sounds great--similar to San Jose.  I hear that drive-ins are still<BR>
> massively popular in India of all places.  I'll have to check that one<BR>
> out some day.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that one could do well by crossing a "drive-in" with a picnic<BR>
ground. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:34:06 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, 34 cm is big, but not outrageous. 34" means that there's no way in<BR>
> *hell* he'll ever get more than what a friend calls a "limp-on". Slight<BR>
> matter of blood volume and blood pressure.<BR>
<BR>
That isn't true.<BR>
<BR>
No further comment.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:37:13 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In message <00516.225045.8y9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>BTW, a couple of the late 40s early 50s war movies have the troops (the<BR>
>crew of a sub in one case) making *highly* critical comments about the<BR>
>action in a movie they are watching.<BR>
<BR>
Never watch "Casualty" (ObTWIAVBP a UK medical drama) with members of<BR>
the medical profession.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:07:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Apology re: Missions of State (was: Re: FLGS Trav in stock)<BR>
<BR>
At 3:33 -0400 18/5/00, I wrote:<BR>
>I did review it at the time. It was an IG book. There are two good<BR>
>adventures - The Khiidkar Incident (since corrected and reprinted)<BR>
>and one by Joe Walsh called  'Reverse Assimilation'. There is another<BR>
>louse James M Ward scenario like the Annililik Run.<BR>
<BR>
That of course should be 'lousy' not 'louse'. I have no objections to <BR>
James Ward personally; rather, I dislike his Traveller scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
Apologies if this has caused a misunderstanding.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:20:57 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Landgrab Review - Yori<BR>
<BR>
Here is the review I promised earlier.<BR>
<BR>
Note: I haven't looked at any of the other Landgrab sites yet, so there is no<BR>
intentional or implied comparison with any other site.<BR>
<BR>
Note #2: I've never really written a review of anything else before, so bear<BR>
with me :)<BR>
<BR>
Overall I was very impressed with what Peter has done with Yori.  There is<BR>
almost no deviation from the BTC text, with only a Gas Giant losing a lot of<BR>
moons.  He's steered well clear of the reference to a possible Ancient's site<BR>
in the BTC text, without contradicting it.  Personally I wouldn't be surprised<BR>
if the Advisor's didn't have something to do with that.  Quite what the<BR>
relationship is I'm not sure, but their pronouncements about ascendant gods<BR>
could be based on more than just their religious texts.<BR>
<BR>
I do have a few questions though.  They are probably nitpicking, but nevermind:<BR>
<BR>
- - Why is there a -2 penalty to the EDU roll for both Human and Zhurphani?  It<BR>
is never explained anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
- - G:Starports states that local law and political authority aren't in force<BR>
within the SPA's port.  You describe Geronimo Field as a being run as a<BR>
consortium of the SPA, the local government and two megacorps.  I took SPA<BR>
ports to /be/ "The Imperiums".  I am assuming that you have G:Starports of<BR>
course to have read this.<g><BR>
<BR>
- - very minor typo: "Big Rock Mountain boosts the Advisors'",  'boasts' perhaps?<BR>
 Hey, it's the only one I noticed.  That's good, I've read much worse.  Usually<BR>
after I've typed it of course.:(<BR>
<BR>
What I would like more of:<BR>
<BR>
- - Tell us more about the Exile Camp orbiting the same Gas Giant as the Research<BR>
Lab that /isn't/ studying any Ancient artifacts, honest. :)<BR>
<BR>
- - Cheeta Industries.  Why did they decide to move the operations out to a<BR>
remote moon in the outer reaches of the system when the religious climate<BR>
changed.  Why didn't they move to another star system, where they could have<BR>
stayed close to a major Starport and thus shipping lanes and workforce.  Or was<BR>
there something out there that they wanted and used the sea-change as an excuse?<BR>
<BR>
High Points:<BR>
<BR>
- - Liked the inclusion of the Event/Encounter tables and Animal stats. <BR>
Especially the animal descriptions.  Especially the Desert Coral.<BR>
<BR>
- - Storm table and Temperature Effects Tables, are great references.  Consider<BR>
them saved.<BR>
<BR>
By-the-way, how do you calculate the values for the Altitude table?  I don't<BR>
ever remember seeing that anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
In summary: just what the Penguin ordered.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
9:20pm up 12 days, 2:22, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:21:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
> need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
<BR>
I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
historically.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:10:33 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: UN Headquarters (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
<BR>
Hello Robert,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Earthdome?<BR>
<BR>
Meep!<BR>
Wrong era.<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:14:30 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hello Steve,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> By that definition, which I'm not quibbling with, I haven't messed with<BR>
> FTs much, Star Trek's Federation is an FT.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, and that's interesting because it's an American series, the<BR>
UFP is ideal, working Socialism, as ist was original planned.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:22:33 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
<BR>
prologue, with snippage<BR>
>>Re: off line for a few days<BR>
Glen Goffin writes<BR>
>snip ..try not to write too much..><BR>
Eris responds<BR>
>>...let's double our output..><BR>
<BR>
And now, ICQ q&a (mainly q)<BR>
<BR>
Lurkers and Newbies of the World UNITE! Having<BR>
taken the above as inspiration we should all seek to ask<BR>
any question we ever thought of, no matter how remote,<BR>
dumb or innane. In this spirit, I now ask the following:<BR>
<BR>
What is ICQ?<BR>
How does it work?<BR>
Where can you upload it?<BR>
Whats the Cost?<BR>
Will it help me avoid a misjump?<BR>
Does Santoncheev use ICQ, or does he use snail mail?<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:22:47 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 11:11:10 Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
>One great service someone could provide for the TML landgrab:<BR>
>List canonical references on every world in the Spinward Marches,<BR>
>such as adventures, JTAS articles, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
I have seen a site floating around some were that had good details<BR>
on Sp March canon stuff, but I cannot recall the address. :-(<BR>
<BR>
In the mean time, I'm interested on any canon material related to<BR>
3020 Somem/Rhylanor, 2733 Edenelt/Trins Veil, and 1524 Hofud/<BR>
Sword Worlders. I dunno if I want to jump into the LG pool, but if<BR>
I do I'm gonna snag one of these systems and I want to make very<BR>
sure that there are no other canon references out there (aside from<BR>
the<BR>
basic system data). I'm tending towards Somem; its a nice out of the<BR>
way spot and if LG turns into a TCS campaign it should be able to,<BR>
paraphrasing one planetary leader, "avoid attracting the Empire and<BR>
the Mining Gild."<BR>
<BR>
Of course it just attracted attention just then, didn't it. Oops.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:39:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 9:45 AM, Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> I posted a first draft of a planet to the TML and invited<BR>
>> comment. I received no comment. Therefore I did not revise<BR>
>> my entry. If I repost it will anyone comment on it?<BR>
> <BR>
> My long days of toil on Yori won me a gratifying whole 7 words of<BR>
> response (all from just 1 person ... thanks Benyamene'ZeAbe').<BR>
<BR>
No problem, I would post more comments on the Landgrab Articles if I got<BR>
online more regularly, but often I choose not to as I have /scores/ of posts<BR>
to read, and other online aggendas. I hope your "toil" was not too arduous,<BR>
Traveller is supposed to be fun. BTW, my whole name is a lot of typing, you<BR>
can shorten it to BZA if you want, or just Ben. My roomie signed up this<BR>
account and got one little typo in my name, ZeAbe' should actually be<BR>
Ze'Abe. No big whoop, but I think I may fix that little error in the future.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:39:48 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 17 May 2000 20:41:13 -0400 (EDT), "Rupert Boleyn"<BR>
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On 17 May 00, at 16:03, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>> > > Didn't the World Court rule against<BR>
>> > > the US concerning some action we took in central america not too<BR>
>> > > many years ago...did *that* stop us, did we even care? Nah!<BR>
<BR>
>> > The US quit paying attention to World Court decisions back when several<BR>
>> > tribes of Native Americans won cases against the US for violating<BR>
>> > treaties with them.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Not exactly.  The US challenged the WC's jurisdiction, and failing<BR>
>> that, chose not to appear.  So, the US doesn't consider the in abstentia<BR>
>> proceedings valid.<BR>
<BR>
>In the US if you end up in court over some dispute, what happens if you <BR>
>and your legal representatives don't show?<BR>
<BR>
I believe that it depends on the nature of the case and the<BR>
specific jurisdiction, but one common outcome in civil cases is a<BR>
default judgement against the no-show party.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:57:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 12:01 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Not hardly. I've *seen* horses. 34" isn't out of the question for them.<BR>
<BR>
There was one horse in a corral on the school bus route when I was in Junior<BR>
High that actually touched the ground with his glans while standing when at<BR>
full extension, and I wonder if there was something wrong with him. It did<BR>
/not/ look either useful or comfortable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:56:24 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>So "Caeser Augustus Imperator" is a really cool hairy head<BR>
leading a bunch of guys in togas.<BR>
<BR>
Huh. Sounds like a university frat party.<<BR>
<BR>
*gurgle*<BR>
<BR>
Or "long haired cool dude who we'd fight to the death for". Yes.<BR>
Though I doubt any Latin teacher would appreciate such a colloquial<BR>
translation. :)<BR>
And yes it does. :-P<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:48:58 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
I think defenestration is an absolutely awesome word. I have converted<BR>
several people to its wonder and glory and have long wanted to establish a<BR>
club for those who also admire this wondrous amazing term.<BR>
Who else wants to join?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:53:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many<BR>
>> imitators that don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
> I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient<BR>
> Rome. We need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast<BR>
> battle scenes.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, there  actually *aren't* that many places/times where "vast<BR>
battle scenes" *could* occur. Post Roman you have to be well into the<BR>
gunpowder era in Europe.<BR>
<BR>
China and Japan have been done. The various Mongol conquests won't go<BR>
over well, and the Crusades are problematic. And the Zulus have been<BR>
done. <BR>
<BR>
What might be interesting if anyone had the skill and the guts o do it<BR>
*right* would be Aztecs. The weapons and outfits are weird, and the<BR>
very *strangeness* of the culture might make it more interesting<BR>
(though it'll give reveiwers lots of chances to say "who can believe<BR>
that people would XXX" and give other folks a chance to say "Guess<BR>
what? they really *did* do XXX. Deal with it...")<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: A planet where "oppressed natives" from Central and South<BR>
America emigrated following a nutcase^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hleader who wanted to<BR>
"re-create" Aztec/Mayan society "without the lies of the<BR>
archeologists. This occurred before the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
They are ok by Imperial Law since they don't have "slaves". After all,<BR>
losing in battle *is* grounds for imprisonment, etc. And sacrifices are<BR>
either volunteeers, or prisoners captured in the wars between the<BR>
city-states. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:06:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/17/00 at 12:05 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>It is also possible that this whole tradition on jump dimming started<BR>
>>from an erroneous belief that it made a difference.<BR>
><BR>
> Or dimming lights was a Vilani religious/cultural tradition transfered over <BR>
> from earlier times.<BR>
><BR>
> Or dimming lights was to reduce the disorienting visual effects of entering <BR>
> jump space with poorly tuned jump coils. The need has gone away, but the <BR>
> tradition remains.<BR>
><BR>
> Or any number of other possiblities...pick one. <g><BR>
<BR>
Assume that entering jump space has an effect on people, some more than<BR>
others (we have "jump sickness, and other references that seem to<BR>
support this).<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, dimmming the lights is just a simple means of warning folks<BR>
"we're about to jump", without loud klaxons or announcements. Sort of<BR>
like dimming the lights in a theater. they *could* just switch them<BR>
off. But dimming them (often in stages) gets across the idea "Hey, get<BR>
ready" without being "obnoxious" about it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:22:59 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 19:42:24 +0200, "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm"<BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
>> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
>> moment.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, sometimes. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"I was going to write myself in, but I was afraid I'd get shot."<BR>
                                       -Lincoln Kennedy, Oakland Raiders tackle, <BR>
                                        on his decision not to vote<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:34:04 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 03:33:30 -0400 (EDT), Jimmy Simpson<BR>
<nimrod@santech.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 08:59 PM 5/17/00 -0400, bloo wrote:<BR>
>>I made this page, concerning canonical Spinward Marches<BR>
>>noblility to help myself, and anyone else:<BR>
<BR>
>>http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/3iherald.html<BR>
<BR>
>>Its not much, so here it is:<BR>
<BR>
>>Spinward Marches<BR>
>>Duke Regina: Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
>>     Marquis Regina:  Norris Aella Aledon<BR>
<BR>
>I seem to remember that Norris had some other titles.  I believe one of <BR>
>them was Baron of Yori (this is from memory, books not handy).<BR>
<BR>
MT Rebellion Sourcebook gives his full name and titles as<BR>
<BR>
Duke Commander Sir Norris, of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of<BR>
Regina, Baron Yori.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, it is necessary to add "Archduke of Deneb" to the list<BR>
of titles; this is obviously a miswording in the Sourcebook.<BR>
<BR>
The omission of "of" in the Barony is not necessarily a typo; it<BR>
is fairly common (especially in English usage) for a Baron to<BR>
take the name of his Barony directly - in other words, the<BR>
Emperor may have settled the Barony of Yori on Norris Aella<BR>
Aledon, but Norris is not the Baron of Yori; Baron Yori holds the<BR>
Barony of Yori.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the Marquis of Regina may not owe any feudal duty to<BR>
the Duke of Regina (or to the County that Count Aledon holds, if<BR>
any), nor are the Marquisate and the Duchy necessarily coincident<BR>
(it would be likely that they are, but there is no necessity that<BR>
they be).<BR>
<BR>
I could also go into a long dissertation of how Norris would be<BR>
addressed in various circumstances (at least IMTU), but that sort<BR>
of thing gets long and boring if you're not a herald or other<BR>
protocol-geek type, so, barring any significant call for it, I'll<BR>
spare the list.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
Yosef ben Lazar, Golden Tygre Pursuivant (Ret.), Seahorse<BR>
Pursuivant<BR>
Yosef Seahorse (stgarr)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:36:33 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 16:22:33 -0500, Dan Roseberry<BR>
<rosebee@troi.csw.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>prologue, with snippage<BR>
>>>Re: off line for a few days<BR>
>Glen Goffin writes<BR>
>>snip ..try not to write too much..><BR>
>Eris responds<BR>
>>>...let's double our output..><BR>
><BR>
>And now, ICQ q&a (mainly q)<BR>
><BR>
>Lurkers and Newbies of the World UNITE! Having<BR>
>taken the above as inspiration we should all seek to ask<BR>
>any question we ever thought of, no matter how remote,<BR>
>dumb or innane. In this spirit, I now ask the following:<BR>
><BR>
>What is ICQ?<BR>
A chat program<BR>
>How does it work?<BR>
Over the internet (Don't ask me - I'm not a programmer)<BR>
>Where can you upload it?<BR>
Do you mean download it? http://www.icq.com<BR>
>Whats the Cost?<BR>
Free (You get what you pay for)<BR>
>Will it help me avoid a misjump?<BR>
Uh...um...good question! Next.<BR>
>Does Santoncheev use ICQ, or does he use snail mail?<BR>
Ok...thanks for dropping by! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"I was going to write myself in, but I was afraid I'd get shot."<BR>
                                       -Lincoln Kennedy, Oakland Raiders tackle, <BR>
                                        on his decision not to vote<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:48:01 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Comments on TML Landgrabs<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> - Under "Geography"  is  a  line  that  says  L'oeil d'Dieu  only<BR>
>   receives 91% of the insulation of Terra.  Shouldn't this by 91%<BR>
>   of the *radiation* of Terra?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Oops!<BR>
The word is meant to be 'insolation' and refers to the total radiant<BR>
energy emitted by the star that hits the planet. "Radiation" could<BR>
include that from cosmic rays and the intrinsic radioactivity of the<BR>
planet itself.<BR>
<BR>
To be absolutely correct, the word should be 'instellation' or<BR>
'inastration' but that strikes me as overly pedantic.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - I like the "Notable Creatures".<BR>
><BR>
Thanks. Not too bad for an afterthought.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Prilissa/Trin's Veil<BR>
> - --------------------<BR>
><BR>
> The topology map is excellant,  how  was<BR>
> it made?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It was done with a freeware program named 'Wilbur' which can create<BR>
fractal height maps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:49:21 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : International Waters<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> I think there is a cattle station in Australia slightly larger than all<BR>
> of Texas...<BR>
><BR>
You're right.<BR>
State                  Land Area (Texas=1)<BR>
Queensland             ~4<BR>
NSW                     ~1<BR>
Victoria                  ~0.5<BR>
South Australia       ~1.5<BR>
NT                        ~2<BR>
WA                      ~6<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Comments on TML Landgrabs<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 3:48 PM, robocon@ozemail.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> To be absolutely correct, the word should be 'instellation' or<BR>
> 'inastration' but that strikes me as overly pedantic.<BR>
<BR>
Not to me, but I am what might be called a logophiliac(sp?), and take nearly<BR>
any opportunity to increase my vocabulary. If it is truely more correct, how<BR>
can it be pedantic? ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:25:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 9:06, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:35 AM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> >Flamebait, but I had to get this out of my system.<BR>
> <BR>
> >If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes the<BR>
> >US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
> >patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
> <BR>
> Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
> flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a camp<BR>
> SF movie.<BR>
> <BR>
> >As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
> >place to get him killed.<BR>
> <BR>
> We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?" <BR>
> This thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But<BR>
> it was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours,<BR>
> and things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see: The movie was too loud (I had ringing ears the next day). It <BR>
wasn't just the plot that was full of holes, etc, etc. By and large New <BR>
Zealanders didn't like the thing much, probably because it was hyped so <BR>
much more than anything else.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2454<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2455<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
Re: Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
Thanks for the FT Stuff<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
RE: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
[OT] WWI movies (long)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Fiji<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:27:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Ref:  Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 10:35, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 17 May 00, at 9:06, rgd@infinet.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>   Anyone know what techlevel the Slammer's powerguns would be? :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > About TTL9, IMO. The main discovery was serendipitous, and could be<BR>
> > discovered at ant TL from about 5 onwards, and most of the rest of a<BR>
> > powergun is precision machining. The tricky bit is the liguid nitrogen<BR>
> > bottles, which are noted as being null-conductive, and thus able to<BR>
> > store nitrogen without leakage indefinately at room temperature.<BR>
> <BR>
> From what I recall reading back in the 1980s we may have a "good<BR>
> enough" insulation now. The quote I recall was along the lines of "we can<BR>
> ship a tank car of liquid helium across the country with only a 1 degree<BR>
> rise in temp. <BR>
> <BR>
> Liquid nitrogen is a lot warmer, so the temp diff isn't *nearly* as<BR>
> bad. So, start with it at just above freezing and it ought to be good for<BR>
> a month or two. <BR>
<BR>
I didn't mean to imply that we couldn't make powerguns now, just that <BR>
we couldn't make ones quite as good as the ones in the stories.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:34:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 8:51, Joseph Dietrich wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: How much does the average person in the Imperium know about the<BR>
> historical facts of Cleon's rise to power?<BR>
<BR>
Probably not a lot given how different Melieu:0 looked from what you'd <BR>
have gathered by reading the CT/MT library data.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:00:34 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >><<  It is commonly claimed that the Third Imperium is strongly<BR>
> >> influenced by ancient Rome. >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >No claim about it -- I was there, and I put the strong influence in.<BR>
><BR>
> I guess that settles it then. I amend my statement to "The Third Imperium is<BR>
> strongly influenced by ancient Rome." Happy?<BR>
><BR>
> >><< So where the hell are the gladiator >><BR>
> >><BR>
> >I thought bringing "panem et circenses" too directly to the Third Imperium<BR>
> >was a little trite.<BR>
><BR>
> Trite? C'mon, what's trite about cutting real world history free from its<BR>
> context and mapping it over a truly massive stellar empire? I mean, there<BR>
> are cat-men samurai and guys with strange mental powers who wear turbans...<BR>
> but you couldn't find the room for a few tired gladiators, fighting for<BR>
> freedom under alien suns?<BR>
><BR>
> >Also, it didn't occur to me for several years  :  )<BR>
><BR>
> Ah, the truth comes out. :)<BR>
><BR>
> >Loren (I also like Gladiator and hope it's sucess spawns many imitators<BR>
> that<BR>
> >don't suck) Wiseman<BR>
><BR>
> I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
> need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
<BR>
When was the last time someone did a big budget movie of one of the Crusades?<BR>
The final battles of the Mongol Hordes? (apart from that one with John Wayne?)<BR>
Perhaps some of the Japanese Feudal Era ?Civil? Wars?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:54:31 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Hopped over to Peter Trevor's Yori pages.<BR>
Overall, the world description is quite good. I like the bits about the<BR>
Undersea and the<BR>
cultural notes.<BR>
Peter, what program did you use to make your world map?<BR>
<BR>
A few nits :-<BR>
<BR>
> Primary is a small gas giant designated "Dectura". Primary diameter<BR>
>   112,200 kilometers.<BR>
><BR>
It's only a little bit smaller than Saturn. (?<>small?)<BR>
<BR>
> Density 2.22 standard. Mass 0.19 standard<BR>
><BR>
'Standard' = earth density and masses?<BR>
A density of ~11g/cc is better than that of metallic iron (?!)<BR>
This doesn't sit well with the geology subsequently outlined, among<BR>
other things.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> This, and the<BR>
>  high level of volcanic activity, has resulted in an atmospheric pressure at base level of 17% above<BR>
>  standard pressure! (Since there are no oceans or proper seas the terms "base level" and "base altitude"<BR>
>  are used in preference to the term "sea level".)<BR>
><BR>
Datum or reference level. The tidal effect of Dectura on Yori may<BR>
account for some of<BR>
the volcanic activity. Is the atmosphere 'bulked up' with carbon dioxide<BR>
(from all the volcanoes)? This will increase atmospheric pressure and<BR>
pump up the greenhouse effect quite dramatically, at the cost of<BR>
changing the atmosphere to a tainted one.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Much of the water was lost into space <snip><BR>
><BR>
The atmosphere and gravity should largely prevent this, despite the very<BR>
high average surface temperature (30.5 Celsius). Perhaps it could be<BR>
lost into the mantle.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In<BR>
>  the open desert during periastron noon day temperatures at the equator reach 60C ... well above the<BR>
>  human limit of habitability. (Without artificial aids 60C is fatal.)<BR>
><BR>
No. The U.S. Air Force exposed naked personnel to sustained dry<BR>
temperatures of 204.4 C (when clothed, they were able to tolerate 260 C)<BR>
in their physiology work for the space program in the 1960s.<BR>
<BR>
Saunas can run up to 140 C, and they're obviously humid and survivable.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Yori's starport consists of a single downport called "Geronemo Field".<BR>
><BR>
'Geronemo' = 'Geronimo', the famous Native American chief, or is it a<BR>
classically derived compound (= 'old nobody'? <g>)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(who should have proofread his own submission much more closely)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:59:02 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
Very nicely said.  Another point can be said of dictatorships is that<BR>
they are historically intolerant of military failure and paranoid enough<BR>
to assume treason on the part of their commanders.  The treason angle is<BR>
especially tough on mercs ('don't lie to President so and so paid you to<BR>
betray me') since they are hired rather than national/party/zealot/etc.,<BR>
personnel.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> All this  talk  about  the  affects  of  Religious  Dictatorships<BR>
> retarding TL has focused on the "Religious" aspect and  forgotten<BR>
> the "Dictatorship" part.  I think many of  our  perceptions  have<BR>
> been coloured by western  history  where  there  have  been  many<BR>
> clashes between organised religion and science.  But TL is  *not*<BR>
> scientific knowledge: the low tech Imperial  backwater  world  is<BR>
> well aware of other planets, societies and races  ...  they  just<BR>
> can't  *locally*  produce  high  tech  goods.   The  problem  for<BR>
> religion and science in  our  past  has  been  that  science  has<BR>
> questioned aspects of organised religion's  world-view  and  thus<BR>
> was preceived as undermining its credability and  authority.  You<BR>
> should think of low tech Imperial worlds  as  being  like  third-<BR>
> world contries today.  I doubt you'd find  many  missionaries  in<BR>
> these countries  preaching  anti-technology  sentiment  (anti-big<BR>
> business maybe, but not anti-technology).  The exception to  this<BR>
> are worlds not in contact with the interstellar  community  (such<BR>
> as pre-First Contact races, and  degenerate  lost  colonies)  ...<BR>
> within the Imperium they are almost certainly Red Zones.<BR>
> <BR>
> The types of governments that are anti-technology are the  ultra-<BR>
> authoritarian ones.  They would see *any* changes as  potentially<BR>
> threatening to their hold over the populous.  The exception would<BR>
> be military technology (which increases their power) and possibly<BR>
> some large-scale industrial technology), but civilian  technology<BR>
> would  be   carefully   regulated   and   proscribed.   Religious<BR>
> Dictatorships are  usually  very  authoritarian  and  thus  would<BR>
> impede non-military technology improvements ...  other  types  of<BR>
> dictatorship would be just the same.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just my Cr0.02 worth.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:07:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Those Dreaded Feudal Technocracies (long)<BR>
<BR>
> > By that definition, which I'm not quibbling with, I haven't messed with<BR>
> > FTs much, Star Trek's Federation is an FT.<BR>
> <BR>
> In fact, and that's interesting because it's an American series, the<BR>
> UFP is ideal, working Socialism, as ist was original planned.<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes. A friend of mine argued that there must have been a socialist <BR>
revolution in the UFP between the OS and the NG, led by the "red shirts" <BR>
on Kirk's old ship. You can read his take on it at <BR>
http://www.pigsandfishes.org/natter/19971104.html.<BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd love to see _Star Trek: The Great Leap Forward_, but<BR>
I'm probably weird that way.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:03:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 18 May 00, at 14:57, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 12:01 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Not hardly. I've *seen* horses. 34" isn't out of the question for them.<BR>
> <BR>
> There was one horse in a corral on the school bus route when I was in<BR>
> Junior High that actually touched the ground with his glans while standing<BR>
> when at full extension, and I wonder if there was something wrong with<BR>
> him. It did /not/ look either useful or comfortable.<BR>
<BR>
Quite normal. I grew up in a rural area, and you saw stallions doing <BR>
that from time to time. We used to call them "five legged horses" as <BR>
kids. BTW when they're bored they'll run their penis out like that and <BR>
then tense and relax it so it swing up and down from the ground to <BR>
being horizontal and then down again. Give them something to do in the <BR>
day I guess.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:14:13 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: Review: Pitch Black<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > The Roc wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Beenleigh, between here (the Gold Coast) and Brisbane still have a<BR>
> > "popular"<BR>
> >> drive-in, costs about $12/head, but you get two movies (double feature) for<BR>
> >> that, where walk-ins charge near the same for only one movie...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > That sounds great--similar to San Jose.  I hear that drive-ins are still<BR>
> > massively popular in India of all places.  I'll have to check that one<BR>
> > out some day.<BR>
><BR>
> I suspect that one could do well by crossing a "drive-in" with a picnic<BR>
> ground.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
In summer the local pool has "dive-in" movies...large projection screen on one<BR>
side of the pool...when the temp hits the high 30's it's good to sit in the<BR>
shallow end and chill out...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:17:04 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
<BR>
> > Density 2.22 standard. Mass 0.19 standard<BR>
> ><BR>
> 'Standard' = earth density and masses?<BR>
> A density of ~11g/cc is better than that of metallic iron (?!)<BR>
> This doesn't sit well with the geology subsequently outlined, among<BR>
> other things.<BR>
<BR>
You're right, and blame the World Builder's Handbook<BR>
for this. It's a great little volume, but it *did* allow for worlds<BR>
twice as dense as Earth. A glaring mistake.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if we ever get into space and find it full of<BR>
sold-lead worlds, then we'll know DGP was right all along.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:23:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Thanks for the FT Stuff<BR>
<BR>
By the way, I wanted to thank everyone for your thought<BR>
provoking remarks about those 'dreaded feudal <BR>
technocracies.' They were very helpful, and I promise <BR>
that if I ever write an article on the subject, I'll try to define <BR>
FT's broadly enough to cover just about everybody's <BR>
conception of them.<BR>
<BR>
I hope to finish my next article, on bureaucratic governments <BR>
(8 & 9) by the end of the week. Thanks again,<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:22:53 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 18 May 00, at 9:06, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 09:35 AM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> > >Flamebait, but I had to get this out of my system.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes the<BR>
> > >US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
> > >patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
> > flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a camp<BR>
> > SF movie.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
> > >place to get him killed.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"<BR>
> > This thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But<BR>
> > it was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours,<BR>
> > and things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
><BR>
> Let's see: The movie was too loud (I had ringing ears the next day). It<BR>
> wasn't just the plot that was full of holes, etc, etc. By and large New<BR>
> Zealanders didn't like the thing much, probably because it was hyped so<BR>
> much more than anything else.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a decadant<BR>
society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest scene, the shot<BR>
of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in Canberra, the<BR>
_real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:29:54 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Review (was Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>L'oeil d'Dieu/Aramis<BR>
>--------------------<BR>
><BR>
>- Under "Geography"  is  a  line  that  says  L'oeil d'Dieu  only<BR>
>  receives 91% of the insulation of Terra.  Shouldn't this by 91%<BR>
>  of the *radiation* of Terra?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think it should be "Insolation" ie energy received from the sun... though<BR>
of course the star at L'oeil d'Dieu isn't called Sol <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:53:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL retardations)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>David Weber did that in "Heirs of Empire".  In a religious, anti-tech<BR>
>society, all new inventions had to be approved by a priest to make sure<BR>
>it's an improvement on an existing, approved technology, and not a "new"<BR>
>idea, which are forbidden.  ISTR that one example used in the book, is<BR>
>whether a plow with a steel blade was an improvement on the "premitted"<BR>
>wooden-blade plow, or a new invention.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
All ploughs have metal "blades" or rather "shares". Sometimes in the past<BR>
these were metal shoes that fitted over a wooden core, but they all used<BR>
metal.<BR>
<BR>
Ploughs work by cutting through the earth, and turning the cut soil to one<BR>
side using a mouldboard. Now the mouldboard's used to be wooden, but are now<BR>
all metal (as is the frame of a modern plough).<BR>
<BR>
Prior to ploughs farmers used Ard's, which were basically a pointy stick<BR>
held by a frame and dragged over the soil, and worked by scratching a furrow<BR>
rather than cutting one. These were usually just hardened wood, though some<BR>
were metal tipped in the transition period between ard to plough<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:42:32 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: RE: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
<BR>
Another set of questions before the thunderstorm hits...<BR>
<BR>
I take it from a number of folks that ICQ is, well, as<BR>
Jeff Peterson put it, one of those programs that<BR>
"(You get what you pay for)" This being the case,<BR>
I'm now wondering<BR>
<BR>
Whether theres something better (MIRC, AIM, etc)?<BR>
Could these other chat programs work with the<BR>
still developing Traveller On-Line setup?<BR>
<BR>
Ok gotta go Dan Roseberry (plop101) HS AR<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:46:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: [OT] WWI movies (long)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 18 May 2000 22:24<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome.<BR>
We<BR>
>> need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle<BR>
scenes.<BR>
><BR>
>I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
>understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
>historically.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are several. I got the following list from http://us.imdb.com/list and<BR>
searching on for War films including the keyword WWI<BR>
<BR>
"Great War, The" (1996) (mini) TV Series<BR>
...aka "Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century, The" (1996) (mini)<BR>
1914 (1915)<BR>
40 Days of Musa Dagh (1982)<BR>
40,000 Horsemen (1941)<BR>
...aka Forty Thousand Horsemen (1941)<BR>
Ace of Aces (1933)<BR>
Aces High (1976)<BR>
African Queen, The (1951)<BR>
Alien Enemy, An (1918)<BR>
All Quiet on the Western Front (1930)<BR>
Andel milosrdenstv (1994)<BR>
...aka Angel of Mercy (1994)<BR>
...aka Anjel milosrdenstva (1994) (Slovakia)<BR>
Barbed Wire (1927)<BR>
Battle of the Somme, The (1916)<BR>
Battle of Vimy Ridge (1999)<BR>
Behind the Door (1919)<BR>
Better 'Ole, The (1926)<BR>
Better 'ole; or, The Romance of Old Bill, The (1918)<BR>
Beware! (1919)<BR>
Big Parade, The (1925)<BR>
Birth of Patriotism, The (1917)<BR>
Blaze o' Glory (1929)<BR>
Britain's Naval Secret (1915)<BR>
Captured! (1933)<BR>
Carry on Sergeant (1928)<BR>
Chunuk Bair (1992)<BR>
Claws of the Hun, The (1918)<BR>
Come On In (1918)<BR>
Comradeship (1919)<BR>
...aka Comrades in Arms (1919)<BR>
Croix de bois, Les (1932)<BR>
Dark Road, The (1917)<BR>
...aka Road to Honour, The (1917) (UK)<BR>
Dawn Patrol, The (1930)<BR>
...aka Flight Commander (1930) (USA: TV title)<BR>
Dawn Patrol, The (1938)<BR>
E la nave va (1983)<BR>
...aka And the Ship Sails On (1983)<BR>
...aka Et vogue le navire (1984) (France)<BR>
Eagle and the Hawk, The (1933)<BR>
Farewell to Arms, A (1932)<BR>
Fighting 69th, The (1940)<BR>
For France (1917)<BR>
For Liberty (1917)<BR>
For the Freedom of the World (1917)<BR>
For Valour (1917)<BR>
Forgotten Men (1933)<BR>
Friends and Foes (1915)<BR>
From Flower Girl to Red Cross Nurse (1915)<BR>
Frontiera, La (1996)<BR>
Gallipoli (1981)<BR>
German Side of the War, The (1915)<BR>
Girl from Downing Street, The (1918)<BR>
Good-Bye, Bill (1918)<BR>
...aka Goodbye Bill (1918)<BR>
...aka Gosh Darn the Kaiser (1918) (USA)<BR>
Gown of Destiny, The (1917)<BR>
Grande illusion, La (1937)<BR>
...aka Grand Illusion (1938) (USA)<BR>
Great Love, The (1918)<BR>
Grey Parasol, The (1918)<BR>
...aka Gray Parasol, The (1918) (USA: review title)<BR>
Guns of August, The (1964)<BR>
Happy Christmas, Miss King (1998) (TV)<BR>
Heart of Humanity, The (1918)<BR>
...aka Hearts of Humanity (1919) (USA: review title)<BR>
Hearts of the World (1918)<BR>
Hell's Angels (1930)<BR>
Hotel Imperial (1927)<BR>
How Lieutenant Rose RN Spiked the Enemy's Guns (1915)<BR>
Hun Within, The (1918)<BR>
I'll Say So (1918)<BR>
Impersonation, The (1916)<BR>
In the Name of the Prince of Peace (1914)<BR>
...aka Prince of Peace (1914) (review title)<BR>
J'accuse! (1919)<BR>
...aka I Accuse (1919)<BR>
John McCrae's War: In Flanders Fields (1998)<BR>
Johnny Got His Gun (1971)<BR>
Journey's End (1930)<BR>
Kaiser's Finish (1918)<BR>
Kaiser's Shadow, The (1918)<BR>
...aka Triple Cross, The (1918) (UK)<BR>
King and Country (1964)<BR>
Kultur (1918)<BR>
Lafayette Escadrille (1958)<BR>
...aka Hell Bent for Glory (1958)<BR>
Lawrence of Arabia (1962)<BR>
Legion of the Condemned, The (1928)<BR>
Lest We Forget (1918)<BR>
Lest We Forget (1935)<BR>
Letter from the Western Front, A (1999)<BR>
Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, The (1943)<BR>
...aka Colonel Blimp (1945) (USA)<BR>
Life's Greatest Problem (1918)<BR>
...aka Safe for Democracy (1918)<BR>
Light of Victory, The (1919)<BR>
Lighthorsemen, The (1987)<BR>
Lilac Time (1928)<BR>
...aka Love Never Dies (1928)<BR>
Lost Patrol, The (1934)<BR>
Love and the Law (1919)<BR>
Man From Wyoming, A (1930)<BR>
Man Who Was Afraid, The (1917)<BR>
Man Who Wouldn't Tell, The (1918)<BR>
Mare Nostrum (1926)<BR>
...aka Our Sea (1926) (USA)<BR>
Me und Gott (1918)<BR>
...aka Me und Gott; or, When America Awoke (1918) (USA: copyright title)<BR>
Men Must Fight (1933)<BR>
Missing (1918)<BR>
Morgenrot (1933)<BR>
...aka Dawn, Red Dawn (1933) (USA)<BR>
Mr. Logan, U.S.A. (1918)<BR>
...aka Jim Logan, U.S.A. (1918) (USA: review title)<BR>
Mrs. Slacker (1918)<BR>
Mutiny on the Western Front (1979)<BR>
My Four Years in Germany (1918)<BR>
Mystery Girl, The (1918)<BR>
New Commandment, The (1925)<BR>
No Man's Land (1918)<BR>
Noah's Ark (1929)<BR>
Old Wive's Tale, The (1921)<BR>
On Dangerous Ground (1917)<BR>
On the Russian Frontier (1915)<BR>
Our Better Selves (1919)<BR>
Over the Top (1918)<BR>
Over There (1917)<BR>
Pack Up Your Troubles (1939)<BR>
...aka We're in the Army Now (1939)<BR>
Paths of Glory (1957)<BR>
Powder (1916)<BR>
Power of Right, The (1919)<BR>
Price of Applause, The (1918)<BR>
Pride of New York, The (1917)<BR>
Private Peat (1918)<BR>
Profiteer, The (1919)<BR>
Q-Ships (1928)<BR>
...aka Blockade (1932) (UK: reissue title)<BR>
Red Baron, The (1971)<BR>
...aka Von Richthofen and Brown (1971)<BR>
Red Clay (1927)<BR>
Regeneration (1997)<BR>
...aka Behind the Lines (1998) (USA: US version)<BR>
Rveille (1924)<BR>
Sergeant York (1941)<BR>
Shopworn Angel, The (1928)<BR>
Somewhere in France (1916)<BR>
Splendid Sinner, The (1918)<BR>
Spy in Black, The (1939)<BR>
...aka U-Boat 29 (1939) (USA)<BR>
Tell England (1931)<BR>
...aka Battle of Gallipoli, The (1931)<BR>
This Mad World (1930)<BR>
Till I Come Back to You (1918)<BR>
Today We Live (1933)<BR>
Trench, The (1999)<BR>
...aka Tranche, La (2000) (France)<BR>
True Heaven (1929)<BR>
Under the Black Eagle (1928)<BR>
Under the German Yoke (1915)<BR>
Unpardonable Sin, The (1919)<BR>
Uomini contro (1970)<BR>
...aka Many Wars Ago (1970) (USA)<BR>
Wanted for Murder (1918)<BR>
War and the Woman (1917)<BR>
War Horse, The (1927)<BR>
Warrior Strain, The (1919)<BR>
Westfront 1918 (1930)<BR>
...aka Comrades of 1918 (1930)<BR>
What Price Glory (1926)<BR>
What Price Glory (1952)<BR>
White Cliffs of Dover, The (1944)<BR>
Wings (1927)<BR>
Woman the Germans Shot, The (1918)<BR>
...aka Cavell Case, The (1918) (copyright title)<BR>
Womanhood, the Glory of the Nation (1917)<BR>
...aka Battle Cry of War (1917/II)<BR>
...aka Womanhood (1917) (copyright title)<BR>
Yanks (1979)<BR>
Ypres (1925)<BR>
...aka Wipers (1925)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:48:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Mmm. Mr. Cranky didn't like the movie either:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/battlefieldearth.html<BR>
<BR>
'"Battlefield Earth" is one of the worst films ever made. It's that simple.<BR>
It's "Plan 9 From Outer Space" made with 60 million dollars. Had Ed Wood<BR>
actually made it, people would expect an apology. ...'<BR>
<BR>
He also mentions what I thought was the worst thing about Gladiator (hint:<BR>
"Now, wasn't that fun?"):<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/gladiator.html<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Uh, uuuhh ... What about those pod races? Yeah, that's the ticket!<BR>
Er, I mean, grav pod races!!! Yeah! Or maybe grav chariots. Now we're<BR>
cookin'! I think I would like to see a FS grav chariot, perhaps with similar<BR>
characteristics to that FS grav bike of a few months ago.<BR>
<BR>
Overall, the Imperium seems to me a little too civilized (at least on the<BR>
high-tech) for it's population to enjoy the old hack 'n slash style<BR>
gladiatorial games, at least when real life is on the line. Rather, I see<BR>
virtual reality gladitorial games, not unlike advanced versions of Unreal<BR>
Tournament or Quake 3, at least on the hi-tech worlds. That and real-world,<BR>
non-lethal sports.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, with high-tech medicine being what it might be, non-lethal could<BR>
mean anything but a headshot is okay ...<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich: Scrapin' for an OT subject<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:03:18 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Fiji<BR>
<BR>
Persuant to recent debate on the Coup in Fiji several years ago...It's<BR>
happened again! Stay tuned folks!<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:15:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
At 03:39 PM 5/18/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>At 09:22 AM 5/16/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Ok I got it, when the decision is made to "Send in the Marines"  What<BR>
>>kind of force shows up?  A Corps, A Division, A Battalion?  I'm speaking<BR>
>>in general terms not all out war.  Picture a planetary conflict that the<BR>
>>Imperials have decided has gone too far and they are going to put a stop<BR>
>>to it.  Do they show up with overwhelming force or a token force and<BR>
>>dare anyone to mess with them?<BR>
><BR>
>They show up in overwhelming strength - at least a dozen marines.  :)<BR>
<BR>
I'm working up the final draft of GF as we speak, but I can tell you that<BR>
it's usually no more than a company.  If an entire Marine Task Force shows<BR>
up, you are in *serious* trouble.  If anybody mentions "Armored Cavalry<BR>
Regiment," learn Zhodani and start running Spinward.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2455<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2456</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2456<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: RE:Landgrab<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Roc: ID (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Roc: Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:20:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 07:42 PM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
>> moment.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in sun.<BR>
<BR>
Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:22:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 01:41 PM 5/18/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Jen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
>>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
><BR>
>Obviously, it's because Americans are smarter and more observant. Don't cry<BR>
>too much though, we "ugly Americans" did have the common courtesy to call up<BR>
>the rest of the world (with morse code, even) and tell them that there were<BR>
>gaping holes in the plot which could be exploited. Whoops. I meant "gaping<BR>
>holes in the alien ships". Sorry. :)<BR>
<BR>
Y'all will find it amusing that some of the ultra-right wing loonies<BR>
complained about the film because it had Jews being heroic.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:25:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:25 AM 5/19/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Let's see: The movie was too loud (I had ringing ears the next day). It <BR>
>wasn't just the plot that was full of holes, etc, etc. By and large New <BR>
>Zealanders didn't like the thing much, probably because it was hyped so <BR>
>much more than anything else.<BR>
<BR>
It was an American film.  The major audience was supposed to be young<BR>
Americans on their school breaks, celebrating the anniversary of the<BR>
signing of our Declaration of Independence.  I'm not suprised that the rest<BR>
of the world missed many of the in-jokes.<BR>
<BR>
I see many foreign films and miss about half of what's going on due to a<BR>
lack of cultural references.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:32:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 AM 5/19/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a decadant<BR>
>society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest scene, the<BR>
>shot of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in <BR>
>Canberra, the _real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the invaders also blew up New York and Los Angeles, so they<BR>
weren't just blasting captials.<BR>
<BR>
It's more proof that this was an American movie; most Americans can be<BR>
expected to at least recognize the Opera House and Harbour Bridge.  It's<BR>
like movies set in San francisco have to have either a cable car, the<BR>
Golden Gate Bridge, or super-dense fog.  All TV shows filmed here shoot<BR>
their exteriors in Alamo Square.  They do this because people can look at<BR>
it and say "San Francisco".<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 22:10:46 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
<BR>
We are the barbarians at our own gates. So no worries.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:34:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RE:Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have also had to deal with Real Life(TM) issues of late. Also, since I <BR>
> have<BR>
> taken two systems with previously published data (Efate/Regina and<BR>
> Bowman/District 268) I'm digging for details to stay on track with canon.<BR>
>><BR>
> One great service someone could provide for the TML landgrab:<BR>
> List canonical references on every world in the Spinward Marches,<BR>
> such as adventures, JTAS articles, and so on. So if someone<BR>
> wanted to do a writeup about the planet Mastev, they would know<BR>
> to track down JTAS issue 56, supplement 14 ("academics") and<BR>
> other works with info on the planet.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, what's needed is a concordance/cross-index. And a good start<BR>
would be folks going thru items they have and making up lists of<BR>
*every* reference to *anything* that is in them, by product and page. <BR>
<BR>
I don't think Marc Miller would have a problem with that sort of info<BR>
being up on web pages.<BR>
<BR>
Take the lists (have at least 2 different people do each product) and<BR>
combine them, and re-index on the reference rather than the<BR>
publication, and you've got the start of a master index.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:56:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW, 34 cm is big, but not outrageous. 34" means that there's no way in<BR>
>> *hell* he'll ever get more than what a friend calls a "limp-on". Slight<BR>
>> matter of blood volume and blood pressure.<BR>
><BR>
> That isn't true.<BR>
<BR>
Assume a cross-sectional area of 2 sq in (or a bit under 1.6" dia.).<BR>
That gives a volume of 0.29 gallons, or 1.2 *quarts*. If that's erect<BR>
volume, then how much does it shrink when non-erect? If it's even 50%,<BR>
that's 1.2 pints of blood that have to be diverted to cause an<BR>
erection. Which will make most people more than a bit woozy. <BR>
<BR>
And if it *doesn't* shrink noticably, where the hell does he *put* it?<BR>
Bending isn't an option...<BR>
<BR>
Getting it to do more than *hang* requires extra blood *pressure.<BR>
Enough to support over 2 lbs via hydrostatic pressure.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:41:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     Correct, do not waste good C-4 unless you have to.<BR>
><BR>
>It's not the wastage of explosive that counts there. It's that if you<BR>
>drop the bridge (suitably warped) "in place", you accomplish *multiple*<BR>
>goals:<BR>
><BR>
>1. You prevent the use of the bridge for crossing the river<BR>
>2. you force them to take it apart and *remove* it before they can<BR>
>   replace it.<BR>
>3. if the stream was navigable, you've blocked it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    All true, but then the one thing I am sorry about my time in the Marines<BR>
was that I never got to blow up a bridge.  Vehicles, trees, people,<BR>
buildings, yes, bridges, no.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:52:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>The squad, less Gorman, seemed to have a good working relationship.  The<BR>
>disgust in Apone's voice when he says "somebody wake up Hicks" shows that<BR>
>the good Corporal is the type who will fall asleep whenever he can.  Good<BR>
>troopie habit, in my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course, a good MARINE, or doggie (that would be you, Doug, as you<BR>
were in the army, no offense meant) will catch 40 winks when he can, as he<BR>
or she does not know when the next time he will get sleep will be.<BR>
    It also seems that they had an officer they had been working with,<BR>
before Gorman, one that they liked & trusted, but he was pulled before the<BR>
mission & replaced with Gorman.  Could it be that the company could not<BR>
trust him to do things the way they wanted him to?  Could it be that he<BR>
would have thought of his Marines first, & the company second?<BR>
<BR>
>Vasquez and the other gunner also seemed to be quite in tune with each<BR>
>other, down to knowing that Vasquez would have extra "gun-thingies" to<BR>
>enable their weapons.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course they were, when you work with someone under the pressure that<BR>
combat is, you get to know what the other people in your unit will do,<BR>
before they do it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:54:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
<BR>
>But didn't you know that Jeff Goldblum's descendents worked for Lucan in a<BR>
>secret little lab that had an accident around 1130 Imperial.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course they did, they also found out that Earth Girls are Easy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:47:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Mercenaries today have ideologies? I guess that depends.  There are plenty<BR>
>of examples of mercenaries today whose 'ideology' is to get paid.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Or as a great political thinker once said:  "Mercenaries make better<BR>
soldiers because they do not have a cause to fight for, only money."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:12:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>If others with less advanced technology can't harm the US, what makes<BR>
>>the US able to hurt someone with much more advanced technology? Pure,<BR>
>>patriotic heroism? The American Dream?<BR>
><BR>
>Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
>flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a camp<BR>
>SF movie.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, that is all that I saw it as.  Of course if you will look closely,<BR>
it was not the Army, not the Air Force, not the Navy, not the Coast Guard<BR>
that saved the US, but the Marines.  And, in that it was totaly truthful.<BR>
Only the Marines can save the US from an alien invasion.<BR>
<BR>
>>As for heroism... let's put our leader on the very front lines... great<BR>
>>place to get him killed.<BR>
><BR>
>We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"  This<BR>
>thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But it<BR>
>was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours, and<BR>
>things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True, and at one time, a leader was required to place his life on the<BR>
line to protect those who followed him.  Plus, the President was a Marine.<BR>
Tells you something about Marines.  Even when we have grown fat & flabby<BR>
from sitting behind a desk, we can still kick some alien ass.<BR>
<BR>
>>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
>>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
><BR>
>Because all the characters were American?  Jens, you are really reading to<BR>
>much into this movie, which was never intended as a serious film.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, it was meant as a fun summer film.  "Come & see US Marines kick<BR>
some alien ass."-type film.  Of course Jens could be upset because the movie<BR>
was not about "Come & see aliens deposite money into swiss banks."-type<BR>
film.<BR>
<BR>
>><cynic-mode><BR>
>>BTW, great message. Kind of like "We are the biggest kids in the<BR>
>>schoolyard... nya nya nya"<BR>
>></cynic-mode><BR>
><BR>
>We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
>moment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, we should start to bully other, smaller countries for their lunch<BR>
money.  *weg*  Seriously, I think that other countries should pay back their<BR>
loans to the US very soon, or we will be sending out our alien ass-kicking<BR>
Marines to kick their asses.<BR>
<BR>
>>Agreed, although it had some nifty special effects. The plot had a lot<BR>
>>of holes in it, though. Most of the people I know in Sweden were amused<BR>
>>by the movie as well.<BR>
><BR>
>So were we.  Most times I saw ID4 the audience was laughing and cheering<BR>
>and having a great time.  At no point did spontaneous performances of the<BR>
>Star-Spangled Banner break out, nor was there a massive rush to enlist in<BR>
>the military.  It was a big summer movie.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, did you notice that at the end, that the Russians worked with the<BR>
US, the Jews & the Arabs working together, the North & South Koreans working<BR>
together?  It had a message, that no matter who you were, the guy next to<BR>
you was just the same as you, human, & as such you should treat him or her<BR>
with respect & love, the same respect & love you should get from them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:20:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>> We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"<BR>
This<BR>
>> thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But it<BR>
>> was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours, and<BR>
>> things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
><BR>
>As I said, some nifty special effects but a lousy plot. If you manage to<BR>
>find the off-switch for your brain, it's not that bad really.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Most SF movies are like that.  Light entertainment.  Not heavy European<BR>
Drama.  Sorry, but this is basicly a Gilbert & Sulivan light opera, not a<BR>
heavy Wagner Opera.<BR>
<BR>
>> Because all the characters were American?  Jens, you are really reading<BR>
to<BR>
>> much into this movie, which was never intended as a serious film.<BR>
><BR>
>OK... sorry...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Let him read into what he wants into this movie.<BR>
<BR>
>> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at<BR>
the<BR>
>> moment.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes,  of course someone who has nothing to brag about always will say<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:24:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
>I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a decadant<BR>
>society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest scene, the<BR>
shot<BR>
>of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in Canberra,<BR>
the<BR>
>_real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Please, the land of Oz is just as decandant as we are, we just have the<BR>
good sense to know it.  At least we do not hound out our politicians because<BR>
they have sex with women.<BR>
    Second, as an American, who has visited Oz, I would much rather live in<BR>
Sydney, than Canberra.  For one thing, in Sydney you can tell the women from<BR>
the men, unlike Canberra, where the women are men.  *j/k*, though I meet a<BR>
nice woman with a full beard & mustache in Canberra that could drink me<BR>
under the table.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:29:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
<BR>
From: Matthew W. Helton <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
<BR>
>Marcinko was the ultimate non-team player in what was supposed to be the<BR>
>ultimate team.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'    I will not say what I think of the Navy, I will not say what I think of<BR>
the Navy, I will not say what I think of the Navy, I will not say what I<BR>
think of the Navy, I will not say what I think of the Navy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:35:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>For an interesting insight into the Spec War mind, I suggest "Rogue<BR>
>Warrior" by Richard Marcinko.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    To be honest with you "Rogue Warrior", while a good book is not as good<BR>
as "Recon".  Sorry, but "Rogue Warrior" does not give you the insight that<BR>
"Recon" does.<BR>
<BR>
>It also a good example what happens to wild & wooly shoot & loot types when<BR>
>they lose their Rabbi.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Read "Recon", we do not lose our Rabbis.  Marines take care of their<BR>
own, even if we do not like that person we will not mess with him, like the<BR>
Navy fucked over Marcinko.<BR>
    To give you an idea, what the Navy did to Marcinko, one of their few<BR>
good men, proved to me that all they are is shit haulers.  Of course what do<BR>
you expect from a service that submits everytime & in everyway?  (Remember<BR>
in the ship's mess, Marines get to jump the line & sailors allow it.  If a<BR>
sailor tries to jump the line on a Marine, well he gets his shit jumped.)<BR>
    Sorry, but to be honest with you, I have never had a high degree of<BR>
respect for the Navy, it seems that they like a push-button war.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:36:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>I respectfully differ in your opinion of Marcinko. Remember, he is in<BR>
prison<BR>
>>for a reason.<BR>
><BR>
>He hasn't been in prison for a long time.  He is now a very successful<BR>
>author and motivational speaker.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You forget free-lance security consultant.<BR>
<BR>
>>Having bumped elbows with a few of the real ones, most of them were<BR>
focused<BR>
>>and reserved: those I saw could not shoot very well.<BR>
><BR>
>I've met Marcinko when he did a book signing in SF.  He was vary polite,<BR>
>soft-spoken, and took a moment to chat with each person in line.  But<BR>
>looking at him, I could see where he might be very loud in the right<BR>
>circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So have I.  He is what you would expect from a professional warrior.  He<BR>
is kind & gentle, but when the shit hits the fan, he does what he has to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 22:49:03 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
>Ah yes. A friend of mine argued that there must have been a socialist<BR>
>revolution in the UFP between the OS and the NG, led by the "red shirts"<BR>
>on Kirk's old ship. You can read his take on it at<BR>
>http://www.pigsandfishes.org/natter/19971104.html.<BR>
<BR>
I've always felt that both ST's Federation and Star Wars' Empire must have<BR>
had universal employment (Yeah, I'll either be a janitor somewhere or go<BR>
into Starfleet...) Hey, given how the Republic in SW was collapsing<BR>
economically, universal employment would explain why so many people were<BR>
willing to tolerate it...<BR>
<BR>
Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
It's just as bad by the third Star Wars film, as shown by 'Generals'<BR>
Calrissian and Solo. At least they have an excuse: they're building a<BR>
provisional government--though they still let a General command a platoon on<BR>
a commando mission.<BR>
<BR>
Rebel 1: Yeah, I'm a General in the Army, a Senator, and the Provisional<BR>
Governor of Altair sector.<BR>
Rebel 2: Wow! What are you doing in the kitchen?<BR>
Rebel 1: Well, I'm just washing dishes now, but wait until the Revolution<BR>
comes...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 22:49:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
    Been reading a bit of Larry Niven lately (Known Space and what not)<BR>
which got the old cerebrum thinking about psionics in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
    In particular the question of "what is the speed of psionics/telepathy<BR>
in Traveller" arises.  IMTU I have telepathy limited by the speed of light<BR>
(since teleportation takes into account potential energy and gravity wells<BR>
it follows..at least in my mind..that other disciplines should also be bound<BR>
to at least pay homage to physics).  How do others handle this issue?<BR>
<BR>
A sidenote..imagine the following scene in the 3I:<BR>
...late at night on a holovideo channel...<BR>
The Psionic Friends Hotline.<BR>
Three elderly zhodani females sitting around a table offering their insights<BR>
on a variety of topics with a disclaimer in fine print that reads:<BR>
'For entertainment purposes only, had they been real psionics they would<BR>
have been supressed'<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:58:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 7:10 PM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
> <BR>
> We are the barbarians at our own gates. So no worries.  :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
I don't know whether to laugh, cry, gasp in horror, applaud or bow my head<BR>
in prayer. Whew! Amen.<BR>
<BR>
On a lighter note, I was browsing around and stumbled onto "The Ten Laws of<BR>
Bad Sci-Fi", I'll just drop a link instead of posting it:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.finearts.yorku.ca/7stories/geek/10laws.htm<BR>
<BR>
And Cthulu Mythos Poetry at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.finearts.yorku.ca/7stories/geek/default.html#cthulu<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:04:05 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: ID (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 9:25 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> By and large New<BR>
> Zealanders didn't like the thing much, probably because it was hyped so<BR>
> much more than anything else.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think this was the problem for at least, my group of mates... the hype<BR>
built it up so much that it failed when the reel began to roll as it didn't<BR>
meet anyone's expectations here (except for the die-hard sci-fi-freak<BR>
copper-mate of mine, put anything remotely sci-fi in a movie and it "is the<BR>
best movie ever!"  Actually, I wish I was like that really, I wouldn't be<BR>
disappointed so much I guess - and he gets bangs of his dollar when you<BR>
really think about it... the Bastard!)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:12:41 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:21 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome.<BR>
We<BR>
> > need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle<BR>
scenes.<BR>
><BR>
> I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
> glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
> understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
> historically.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think you will fond many on that subject have been made, but the majority<BR>
probably before or around the WWII era.  I think between the wars, they were<BR>
pumped out and the quality of remaining stock isn't that good now, so we<BR>
just don't see them aired, which I personally feel, is sad.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:39:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
At 06:41 PM 5/18/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    All true, but then the one thing I am sorry about my time in the Marines<BR>
>was that I never got to blow up a bridge.  Vehicles, trees, people,<BR>
>buildings, yes, bridges, no.<BR>
<BR>
That might have gone a bit too far...  (g,d,dt!)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:49:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>Alas, there  actually *aren't* that many places/times where "vast<BR>
>battle scenes" *could* occur. Post Roman you have to be well into the<BR>
>gunpowder era in Europe.<BR>
<BR>
I think that they could scare a few up. There's always the battle of<BR>
Hastings, which involved quite a number of men and ships. There's also the<BR>
battle of Grunwald, which if I recall correctly involved tens of thousands<BR>
of combatants. Then there's the battle of Kosovo Polje (hopefully I spelled<BR>
that correctly), but that might be a bit too dicey with modern politics.<BR>
Those are the three major medieval battles I can think of off the top of my<BR>
head, and I'm not even all that learned in medieval military history.<BR>
<BR>
You can also turn back the clock a bit into antiquity. A movie with Greek<BR>
battles could be quite nifty. There are quite a few battles and wars which<BR>
could be brought to life. As an extra added bonus, any number of ancient<BR>
poleis could be brought to life, and some pretty cool naval battles could be<BR>
filmed to boot!<BR>
<BR>
>China and Japan have been done. The various Mongol conquests won't go<BR>
>over well, and the Crusades are problematic. And the Zulus have been<BR>
>done.<BR>
<BR>
The crusades are problematic, but that's exactly why a crusades movie would<BR>
likely be fantastic. Plenty of room for drama as well as guys on horses. :)<BR>
<BR>
>What might be interesting if anyone had the skill and the guts o do it<BR>
>*right* would be Aztecs. The weapons and outfits are weird, and the<BR>
>very *strangeness* of the culture might make it more interesting<BR>
>(though it'll give reveiwers lots of chances to say "who can believe<BR>
>that people would XXX" and give other folks a chance to say "Guess<BR>
>what? they really *did* do XXX. Deal with it...")<BR>
<BR>
While I think that the notion is interesting, I suspect that most folks<BR>
would walk out scratching their heads. It would be neat, but I don't know<BR>
how the box office receipts would turn out.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:48:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
>> need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
><BR>
> I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
> glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
> understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
> historically.<BR>
<BR>
There actually *are* a number of WWI films. Quite good ones. But you<BR>
don't see them often because they were shot in black&white.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2456<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2457</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2457<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
demolition<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
A new coup in Fiji !<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2447<BR>
RE: International Waters<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re : Hydraulic Matters (was : Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:58:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Size of Members (was:  Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 12:01 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Not hardly. I've *seen* horses. 34" isn't out of the question for them.<BR>
><BR>
> There was one horse in a corral on the school bus route when I was in Junior<BR>
> High that actually touched the ground with his glans while standing when at<BR>
> full extension, and I wonder if there was something wrong with him. It did<BR>
> /not/ look either useful or comfortable.<BR>
<BR>
Summer camp. Age 8. A bunch of us are standing around the pen that has<BR>
a donkey or mule (something like that) in it. He starts to urinate. And<BR>
all us young kid just stood there *staring* as it emerged from hiding<BR>
and kept getting longer and longer... It didn't *quite* reach the<BR>
ground. <BR>
<BR>
If we'd been older it might have traumatized us for life. As it was we<BR>
just thought it was funny. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And of course, there are those *amazing* JPGs of a Danish lady by the<BR>
name of Bodil that float around the net...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:04:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:52 AM 5/17/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>>Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Except a Troll with a Panther Assault Cannon....<BR>
<BR>
As all Keith Laumer fans know, "the Troll" was a Bolo mk III programmed<BR>
for guard duty.<BR>
<BR>
I think that beats your assualt cannon. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:31:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:41 PM 5/18/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Jen wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
>>>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Obviously, it's because Americans are smarter and more observant. Don't cry<BR>
>>too much though, we "ugly Americans" did have the common courtesy to call up<BR>
>>the rest of the world (with morse code, even) and tell them that there were<BR>
>>gaping holes in the plot which could be exploited. Whoops. I meant "gaping<BR>
>>holes in the alien ships". Sorry. :)<BR>
><BR>
> Y'all will find it amusing that some of the ultra-right wing loonies<BR>
> complained about the film because it had Jews being heroic.<BR>
<BR>
Sheesh! How do they think Israel won those wars with the Arabs? Or<BR>
pulled off the raid on Entebbe?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:07:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In message <00516.225045.8y9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
> Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>>BTW, a couple of the late 40s early 50s war movies have the troops (the<BR>
>>crew of a sub in one case) making *highly* critical comments about the<BR>
>>action in a movie they are watching.<BR>
><BR>
> Never watch "Casualty" (ObTWIAVBP a UK medical drama) with members of<BR>
> the medical profession.<BR>
<BR>
I used to *live* with a couple of nurses. The comments they made about<BR>
*any* hospital scene on TV were amusing.<BR>
<BR>
What was even *more* amusing was watching a tape of the sub-titled<BR>
version of "Das Boot" with the one who spoke German... let's just say<BR>
that some of the subtitles were cleaned up in translation.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:32:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:42 PM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
>>> moment.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
> being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
> states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in sun.<BR>
><BR>
> Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
<BR>
Not until the rest of us get our bag limit... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:33:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a<BR>
> decadant society we can still do great things if we have to"...<BR>
> funniest scene, the shot of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour<BR>
> Bridge... I live in Canberra, the _real_ capital and found it<BR>
> hilarious.<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't just capitals the ships were over. It was large cities too. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:36:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: demolition<BR>
<BR>
I'm watching "Blast Force on the Discovery Channel. They just had a<BR>
lady demolition engineer talking about detcord...<BR>
<BR>
"... comes in all different colrs. Pastels, too..."<BR>
<BR>
Yep, definitely up there with the giggling captains.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:41:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:39 PM 5/18/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>At 09:22 AM 5/16/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>>Ok I got it, when the decision is made to "Send in the Marines"  What<BR>
>>>kind of force shows up?  A Corps, A Division, A Battalion?  I'm speaking<BR>
>>>in general terms not all out war.  Picture a planetary conflict that the<BR>
>>>Imperials have decided has gone too far and they are going to put a stop<BR>
>>>to it.  Do they show up with overwhelming force or a token force and<BR>
>>>dare anyone to mess with them?<BR>
>><BR>
>>They show up in overwhelming strength - at least a dozen marines.  :)<BR>
><BR>
> I'm working up the final draft of GF as we speak, but I can tell you that<BR>
> it's usually no more than a company.  If an entire Marine Task Force shows<BR>
> up, you are in *serious* trouble.  If anybody mentions "Armored Cavalry<BR>
> Regiment," learn Zhodani and start running Spinward.<BR>
<BR>
What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:03:52 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
> > I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome.<BR>
We<BR>
> > need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle<BR>
scenes.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 There are some big impressive battles in history that most westerners never <BR>
get in their histories due to being either poorly documented or being <BR>
considered none of our business...  I stumbled over a 12-year old copy of <BR>
National Geographic the other day and learned of the campaigns by Sulieman <BR>
the Magnificent, the fellow who brought the Ottoman Empire to its peak of <BR>
power in the 1600s. All the wealth and opulence, all the big battles between <BR>
big personalities (he caused the downfall and destruction of the last great <BR>
empire in Egypt; name escapes me), plenty of room for the cast of thousands, <BR>
intrigue galore, implacable foes, etc. Marvelous stuff, but the man was a <BR>
Sunni Moslem, his empire was for the greater glory of Muhammed, and the Turks <BR>
(the last remnant of that empire) are hardly the world's most talked about <BR>
people these days. So Hollywood doesn't care...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 06:35:01 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> ><cynic-mode><BR>
> >BTW, great message. Kind of like "We are the biggest kids in the<BR>
> >schoolyard... nya nya nya"<BR>
> ></cynic-mode><BR>
> <BR>
> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
> moment.<BR>
<BR>
Hah! That's only what the Hivers want you to belive! :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 07:27:13 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 01:41 PM 5/18/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >Jen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>How come no one else but the Americans got the idea of placing the<BR>
> >>explosives *inside* the target? They all saw the hole...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Obviously, it's because Americans are smarter and more observant. Don't cry<BR>
> >too much though, we "ugly Americans" did have the common courtesy to call up<BR>
> >the rest of the world (with morse code, even) and tell them that there were<BR>
> >gaping holes in the plot which could be exploited. Whoops. I meant "gaping<BR>
> >holes in the alien ships". Sorry. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Y'all will find it amusing that some of the ultra-right wing loonies<BR>
> complained about the film because it had Jews being heroic.<BR>
<BR>
But those guys complain about everything, and nobody listens, right? <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 07:36:41 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 07:42 PM 5/18/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> >"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at the<BR>
> >> moment.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
> being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
> states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in sun.<BR>
> <BR>
> Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
<BR>
Doug? Look out of your window... <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
>From a European POV...<BR>
<vbg><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:09:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: A new coup in Fiji !<BR>
<BR>
Talk about deja vu !<BR>
<BR>
There's just been _another_ coup in Fiji !<BR>
<BR>
Led by the manager of a forestry or mining company or something George<BR>
Spate(sp).<BR>
<BR>
They have the ex-cabinet as hostages.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:16:53 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Never watch "Casualty" (ObTWIAVBP a UK medical drama) with members of<BR>
>the medical profession.<BR>
>--<BR>
>Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
Never watch ANY medical show with members of the medical profession! <BR>
My husband's a respiratory therapist, and every time I watch anything <BR>
that shows a patient hooked up to a ventilator it's time to play <BR>
'which vent is that?', which is followed immediately by "he's not <BR>
taped up enough".<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:12:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I see many foreign films and miss about half of what's going on due to a<BR>
>lack of cultural references.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Same here.  Remember, when a film is made in France, there will be a lot<BR>
of cultural references to French Culture, again in England, Scotland,<BR>
Ireland, Sweden, Germany, etc.  When you make a film in a country, you make<BR>
it for the people in that country, not for the people in other countries.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:07:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    All true, but then the one thing I am sorry about my time in the<BR>
Marines<BR>
>>was that I never got to blow up a bridge.  Vehicles, trees, people,<BR>
>>buildings, yes, bridges, no.<BR>
><BR>
>That might have gone a bit too far...  (g,d,dt!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Maybe, Doug, but you know I really miss not being able to blow up one<BR>
bridge.  I mean one stinking bridge, is that too much to ask?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:14:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a decadant<BR>
>>society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest scene, the<BR>
>>shot of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in<BR>
>>Canberra, the _real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, the invaders also blew up New York and Los Angeles, so they<BR>
>weren't just blasting captials.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Major population centers, & capitals.  Remember Dallas-Ft. Worth was<BR>
also hit, but not Phoenix.  Could that be why I live here?  A major city who<BR>
is 100% safe from Alien Attack & Nuclear War.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:10:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
>being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
>states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in<BR>
sun.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
were a world power at one time?  Geez, when did they find the time?<BR>
<BR>
>Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    One thing, Doug, we are barbarians, it takes barbarians to be a world<BR>
power.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:40:16 EDT<BR>
From: TOCoons@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2447<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/17/00 2:25:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  >Missions of State<BR>
>  <BR>
>  This was actually produced? I NEVER saw it in the stores.<BR>
>  Can anyone give a review of this product, was it any good?<BR>
>  Was it a BITS/CORE product, or selfmade IG?<BR>
<BR>
This was one of the later Imperium Games products.  It's in <BR>
approximately the same class as "Anomalies" and "Annililik Run", <BR>
if you're familiar with those.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:56:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: International Waters<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I don't want to challenge your considerable knowledge of law, Steve, and<BR>
I<BR>
>> may be missing some crucial bit of info, but this has certainly happened<BR>
in<BR>
>> recent history, "'round these here parts" (Pennsylvania) at least. I'm<BR>
not<BR>
>> sure of the date but the noted conspiracy theorist and would-be hippie<BR>
guru,<BR>
>> Ira Einhorn, was convicted "in absentia" for the murder of Holly Maddux.<BR>
So<BR>
>> it seems that it does happen from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>So the 'in abstentia' conviction is absolutely meaningless.<BR>
>Pennsylvania had to pass a law that such fugitives<BR>
>tried in abstentia could be retried upon their return.<BR>
<BR>
That would be the crucial bit of info I was missing then. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:11:45 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
I said I wouldn't comment further<BR>
"but they keep dragging me back in."<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Assume a cross-sectional area of 2 sq in (or a bit under 1.6" dia.).<BR>
> That gives a volume of 0.29 gallons, or 1.2 *quarts*.<BR>
<BR>
Thats not all blood.<BR>
<BR>
> If that's erect<BR>
> volume, then how much does it shrink when non-erect? If it's even 50%,<BR>
<BR>
The 'shrinkage' percentage varies greatly among the different<BR>
racial/subspecies/genetic-pool difference/whatever of males.<BR>
As a general matter, northern european type cultures have a<BR>
greater percentage, mediterranean/african cultures much less.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 03:13:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Same here.  Remember, when a film is made in France, there will be a<BR>
lot<BR>
>of cultural references to French Culture, again in England, Scotland,<BR>
>Ireland, Sweden, Germany, etc.  When you make a film in a country, you make<BR>
>it for the people in that country, not for the people in other countries.<BR>
<BR>
Which caused my mind to go in an odd direction:<BR>
<BR>
Recently I discovered a page which contained screenshots and reproductions<BR>
of all of the test cards (we call them test patterns in America) ever run by<BR>
BBC-1 and BBC-2. The one which was apparently used for the longest period of<BR>
time was "Test Card F": The color test pattern with the little girl playing<BR>
noughts & crosses (we call that tic-tac-toe in America) in the center.<BR>
Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the television program<BR>
ReBoot, which as far as I understand is American. How frequently did you<BR>
folks in Britain see "Test Card F" anyway? If you wish to respond and not<BR>
take up bandwidth, a private response is alright. I'm strangely curious<BR>
about this.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:47:17 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> asked:<BR>
<BR>
>Recently I discovered a page which contained screenshots and reproductions<BR>
>of all of the test cards (we call them test patterns in America) ever run by<BR>
>BBC-1 and BBC-2. The one which was apparently used for the longest period of<BR>
>time was "Test Card F": The color test pattern with the little girl playing<BR>
>noughts & crosses (we call that tic-tac-toe in America) in the center.<BR>
>Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the television program<BR>
>ReBoot, which as far as I understand is American. How frequently did you<BR>
>folks in Britain see "Test Card F" anyway? If you wish to respond and not<BR>
>take up bandwidth, a private response is alright. I'm strangely curious<BR>
>about this.<BR>
<BR>
These are only memories, not definative.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of hours per day for 10-20 years, at a guess.<BR>
<BR>
The "Potter's Wheel" was an earlier filler for when the BBC had it's<BR>
transmitters active but wasn't actually broadcasting programmes, but<BR>
that wasn't used much after the transition to colour.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the BBC's long running programme "Pages from Ceefax" replaced<BR>
"Test Card F" in the mid 80's, reducing TCF to a period of an hour<BR>
or so between "Play School" and "Programmes for Schools"<BR>
<BR>
BBC 2 might have continued for longer, though.<BR>
<BR>
Nowadays, we get daytime TV and Austrailian soaps instead.<BR>
<BR>
It's a good thing modern TVs don't take as much effort to set up.<BR>
<BR>
OB Trav<BR>
<BR>
The players arrive on a planet to discover that all the shops have just shut,<BR>
the bars don't open for a couple of hours and the local entertainment networks<BR>
are showing holovid alignment patterns.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:50:12 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:13 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
><BR>
> Recently I discovered a page which contained screenshots and <BR>
> reproductions<BR>
> of all of the test cards (we call them test patterns in <BR>
> America) ever run by<BR>
> BBC-1 and BBC-2. The one which was apparently used for the <BR>
> longest period of<BR>
> time was "Test Card F": The color test pattern with the <BR>
> little girl playing<BR>
> noughts & crosses (we call that tic-tac-toe in America) in the center.<BR>
> Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the <BR>
> television program<BR>
> ReBoot, which as far as I understand is American. How <BR>
> frequently did you<BR>
> folks in Britain see "Test Card F" anyway? If you wish to <BR>
> respond and not<BR>
> take up bandwidth, a private response is alright. I'm <BR>
> strangely curious<BR>
> about this.<BR>
<BR>
Its pretty much a thing of the pre-90's, as now the channels are all 24<BR>
hour there is little opportunity for showing test cards. I remember the<BR>
one in question very clearly, from at least the early seventies until<BR>
the late eighties. Usually on BBC2, as that had shorter transmitting<BR>
hours. Basically, in the 70's during the day (until ~mid-afternoon) BBC2<BR>
was just the test card with musical accompaniment. Both BBC1 & 2 would<BR>
show the card for several minutes to an hour before and after scheduled<BR>
transmission start and end.<BR>
<BR>
The rest of the time, between shutdown and startup of programming in the<BR>
morning would be static. I suppose the transmitters were turned off at<BR>
this time. So I imagine that the sequence went<BR>
<BR>
Static<BR>
Start transmitter with test card<BR>
Broadcast scheduled programs<BR>
Show test card until transmitter switched off<BR>
Static<BR>
<BR>
HTH,<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:27:04 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
><BR>
> >But didn't you know that Jeff Goldblum's descendents worked for Lucan in a<BR>
> >secret little lab that had an accident around 1130 Imperial.<BR>
><BR>
>     Of course they did, they also found out that Earth Girls are Easy.<BR>
<BR>
*splort* Keyboard kill...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:20:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>What might be interesting if anyone had the skill and the guts o do it<BR>
>>*right* would be Aztecs. The weapons and outfits are weird, and the<BR>
>>very *strangeness* of the culture might make it more interesting<BR>
>>(though it'll give reveiwers lots of chances to say "who can believe<BR>
>>that people would XXX" and give other folks a chance to say "Guess<BR>
>>what? they really *did* do XXX. Deal with it...")<BR>
><BR>
> While I think that the notion is interesting, I suspect that most folks<BR>
> would walk out scratching their heads. It would be neat, but I don't know<BR>
> how the box office receipts would turn out.<BR>
<BR>
I think that most of the usual motivations for characters can still be<BR>
used (love, power, etc). It's just that some of the ways you can gain<BR>
"glory" will be strange. The trick would be striking the right balance.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:42:28 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Hydraulic Matters (was : Imperial Nobility Questions)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
> If it's even 50%,<BR>
> that's 1.2 pints of blood that have to be diverted to cause an<BR>
> erection. Which will make most people more than a bit woozy.<BR>
><BR>
1.2 pints = ~750mL.<BR>
Figure adult blood volume at 70-80mL/kg, so it's equivalent to a 14%<BR>
haemorrhage, at<BR>
least acutely.<BR>
I agree that a prompt transfusion of that magnitude could cause some<BR>
distress (a large<BR>
arterial bleeder?). Over 2-3 minutes or so, it isn't a big deal in the<BR>
presence of normal compensatory reflexes. Otherwise we couldn't stand<BR>
from a sitting or lying down without falling back down again, or<BR>
tolerate any acceleration, for example.<BR>
<BR>
The values for 'autotransfusion' during female arousal are on this order<BR>
of magnitude *on average*.<BR>
<BR>
I recommend you all the EMST/ATLS manuals (pub. American College of<BR>
Surgeons) or any military medicine first aid manual for descriptions of<BR>
typical features of<BR>
acute [eventually] decompensated blood loss.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:53:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to<BR>
> > ancient Rome. We need lots of big sweeping historical epics<BR>
> > with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
<BR>
Go watch the 1970's version of "War & Peace"<BR>
All 12 or so hours of it.<BR>
<BR>
> I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
> glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
> understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
> historically.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that it would be very hard to beat "All Quiet On The Western<BR>
Front"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2457<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2458<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re : Save yourselves<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
RE: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Aliens discussion<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: The great leap forward<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Marines (Was: Marines vs. Aliens)<BR>
Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Norris' titles<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: <BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:50:20 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote :-<BR>
<BR>
>  Please, the land of Oz is just as decandant as we are, we just have the<BR>
> good sense to know it.  At least we do not hound out our politicians because<BR>
> they have sex with women.<BR>
><BR>
A brief rebuttal on both your points :-<BR>
- - Kenneth Starr's witch hunt following 'Monicagate', Gary Hart, etc. ad<BR>
nauseam.<BR>
- - Designer clothing for pets originated in the good ol' U.S. of A.,<BR>
ISTR.<BR>
<BR>
I would concede that we have as many bad habits as you Yanks, possibly<BR>
more so (we<BR>
have our own charming foibles plus a desire to imitate our American<BR>
brethren).<BR>
<BR>
> Second, as an American, who has visited Oz, I would much rather live in<BR>
> Sydney, than Canberra.<BR>
><BR>
Any human being (accountants excluded?) would rather live in Sydney.<BR>
Canberra is a<BR>
giant dormitory suburb dotted with gummint offices.<BR>
<BR>
> For one thing, in Sydney you can tell the women from<BR>
>   the men, unlike Canberra, where the women are men<BR>
><BR>
Hmm. Heck of a lot of trannies in Sydney. Our gender reassignment and<BR>
plastic surgeons are among the world's best.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
Sydney, Australia<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:06:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
> Seriously, I think that other countries should pay  back their<BR>
> loans to the US very soon, or we will be sending out our alien ass-kicking<BR>
> Marines to kick their asses.<BR>
<BR>
As soon as the US pays all those back taxes they owe the King of England.<BR>
<BR>
"The United States, a country created out of tax avoidance."<BR>
<BR>
BTW, US Marines are wusses compared to Royal Marines<BR>
<BR>
<grin, that's my stirring for the day><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:15:10 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
> When you make a film in a  country, you make<BR>
> it for the people in that country, not for the people in other countries.<BR>
<BR>
Not entirely true. <BR>
Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:19:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Les Howie <travgrognard@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Nuking something below the Van Allen belts is a VERY<BR>
>BAD IDEA. That sort of thing is how we learned about<BR>
>EMP. Also, you'll kill anybody else in orbit. Lethal<BR>
>range for radaition from a nuke in vacuum is<BR>
>thousands of miles. <BR>
<BR>
How would you approach calculating the lethal range? <BR>
And why particularly bad below the Van Allens?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
Les Howie<BR>
Gearhead Heretic<BR>
imtu 1.0: tc t4 ru- ge++ !3i c++ jt++ au+ ls++ pi+ ta-- he++<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:12:19 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]<BR>
><BR>
> The 'shrinkage' percentage varies greatly among the different<BR>
> racial/subspecies/genetic-pool difference/whatever of males.<BR>
> As a general matter, northern european type cultures have a<BR>
> greater percentage, mediterranean/african cultures much less.<BR>
> <BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
errr... culture is the wrong word. I can adopt the lifestyle and culture<BR>
of the Masai if I want... it won't affect the flaccid length of my<BR>
dangly bits one iota! <g><BR>
<BR>
I believe "People of xxxx ethic origin" is the current phrase of choice.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:50:15 EDT<BR>
From: TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Aliens discussion<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>Vasquez and the other gunner also seemed to be quite in tune with each<BR>
>other, down to knowing that Vasquez would have extra "gun-thingies" to<BR>
>enable their weapons.<BR>
    Of course they were, when you work with someone under the pressure that<BR>
combat is, you get to know what the other people in your unit will do,<BR>
before they do it.<BR>
<end snip><BR>
<BR>
Remember also the dynamics of the group in casual conversation:<BR>
(fairly accurate quotes, but probably not exact)<BR>
Frost says: "I got a bad feeling about this drop."<BR>
Hudson(?) says: "You're always saying that, Frost."<BR>
Frost replies: "Okay, don't say I didn't warn you. When we get back, I'll call your folks..."<BR>
<BR>
Then there was the "Arturian (sp?) Poontang" conversation over the meal.<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
IMO, this was an experienced unit who simply got caught with their pants down.<BR>
<BR>
Roger Barr<BR>
TravelerGM@aol.com<BR>
"You heard the man and you know the drill..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:02:43 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 12:05:37 -0400, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Pete wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>One bad thing about the movie: My wife is now in love with Russell<BR>
>>Crowe. How can I compete?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Me: Hey honey! I rebuilt an HP-UX server at work today!<BR>
>><BR>
>>My wife: Great. DID YOU KNOW RUSSELL CRWE IS IN A BAND?! LET'S BUY THE<BR>
>>CD!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Me: <slump> Yes dear.<BR>
><BR>
>I hate to break it to you like this, so impersonally, but I think that it's<BR>
>time for you to enter the arena and win back the love of your wife. It's the<BR>
>only way.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if I could do it with paintball?<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"I was going to write myself in, but I was afraid I'd get shot."<BR>
                                       -Lincoln Kennedy, Oakland Raiders tackle, <BR>
                                        on his decision not to vote<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:27:44 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a space service<BR>
would in fact be all officers.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
> everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
> higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
> major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:39:07 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? <BR>
<BR>
It seems that they have a radically different command scheme. Notice how a<BR>
brigde officer seems to outramk anyone off the bridge regardless of relative<BR>
formal rank?<BR>
<BR>
>Just about everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign<BR>
>or higher...<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it, all starship personnel are officers. I think this arose<BR>
from the fact that all astronauts were officers, so Roddenberry projected<BR>
this scheme into the future.<BR>
<BR>
>even their away teams are mostly officers. <BR>
<BR>
Please, don't get me started on Starfleet Away Team policies. They make the<BR>
marines in _Aliens_ seem intelligent.<BR>
<BR>
>O'Brien was the only<BR>
>major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
post, not a rank.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,<BR>
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."<BR>
                        Commander Ted Walker<BR>
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 06:36:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>>  Please, the land of Oz is just as decandant as we are, we just have the<BR>
>> good sense to know it.  At least we do not hound out our politicians<BR>
because<BR>
>> they have sex with women.<BR>
>><BR>
>A brief rebuttal on both your points :-<BR>
>- Kenneth Starr's witch hunt following 'Monicagate', Gary Hart, etc. ad<BR>
>nauseam.<BR>
<BR>
    It was not a witch hunt following Monicagate, but it was based upon<BR>
Whitewater & the fact the Hillary made $100,000 in one hour on the stock<BR>
market.  That, plus he lied to the American People.  Americans can take a<BR>
lot of things, but not telling us the truth is not one of them, nor is<BR>
official corruption.  Bill Clinton made alot of money on a failed land deal,<BR>
therefore Kenneth Starr's investigation.  Of course one funny thing, when<BR>
Watergate was happening, no one called the investigation of it a witch-hunt.<BR>
    We can take a major running for senator, who has had a long-term affair,<BR>
as long as he is honest about it.  (Rudy Juliano<sp> has had a long running<BR>
affair & when it came out, & he was totally honest with the people of NY,<BR>
his aproval ratting went up, & the Polls showed him leading Mrs. Clinton.)<BR>
    As for Gary Hart, again he lied.<BR>
<BR>
>- Designer clothing for pets originated in the good ol' U.S. of A.,<BR>
>ISTR.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, it sells well in Austrialia.  Funny thing that, we love to pamper<BR>
our pets.<BR>
<BR>
>I would concede that we have as many bad habits as you Yanks, possibly<BR>
>more so (we<BR>
>have our own charming foibles plus a desire to imitate our American<BR>
>brethren).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I think the term you are looking for is "ape" not imitate.  <j/k><BR>
<BR>
>> Second, as an American, who has visited Oz, I would much rather live in<BR>
>> Sydney, than Canberra.<BR>
>><BR>
>Any human being (accountants excluded?) would rather live in Sydney.<BR>
>Canberra is a<BR>
>giant dormitory suburb dotted with gummint offices.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, sorry, accountants, lawyers, & marketing are not human.<BR>
    Agreed, Sydney is a much more beautiful city than Canberra will be, any<BR>
day.<BR>
<BR>
>> For one thing, in Sydney you can tell the women from<BR>
>>   the men, unlike Canberra, where the women are men<BR>
>><BR>
>Hmm. Heck of a lot of trannies in Sydney. Our gender reassignment and<BR>
>plastic surgeons are among the world's best.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course this explains why "Bruce" is a popular name in Austrialia.<BR>
*weg*  (Sorry, I could not resist, of course my wife is reading this & is<BR>
cracking up at what I just typed, so it can't be all bad.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 06:46:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>> Seriously, I think that other countries should pay  back their<BR>
>> loans to the US very soon, or we will be sending out our alien<BR>
ass-kicking<BR>
>> Marines to kick their asses.<BR>
><BR>
>As soon as the US pays all those back taxes they owe the King of England.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    We did, when we saved your @$$es in WWI & WWII.  Of course you still do<BR>
owe us for Lend-Lease from WWII.<BR>
<BR>
>"The United States, a country created out of tax avoidance."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, you might want to read your history, first.  The US & the UK<BR>
had much deeper problems than just taxes.  Our industry was squashed by<BR>
England, so was our shipping.  In fact, for a long time many of the leaders<BR>
of the Revolution thought of themselves as Englishmen first, & Americans<BR>
second.  Also, if Lord Howe had been given real power by King George the<BR>
Third to end the Revolution, it would have ended peacefully.  Of course this<BR>
information is not well know on your side of the pond as it would show what<BR>
big fools the King was durring the American Revolution.<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, US Marines are wusses compared to Royal Marines<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    BTW, the Royal Marines are wusses compared the the US Marines.<BR>
    Sorry, but I have seen the Royal Marines in combat, & they are as good<BR>
as SEALs, meaning they are not that good in combat.  Sure they are in good<BR>
shape, but their marksmanship is piss poor.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 06:47:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>> When you make a film in a  country, you make<BR>
>> it for the people in that country, not for the people in other countries.<BR>
><BR>
>Not entirely true.<BR>
>Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
><grin><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True, but then again, much of the TV shows seen in New Zealand are made<BR>
for the US Market.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:51:43 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Marines (Was: Marines vs. Aliens)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm working up the final draft of GF as we speak, but I can tell you that<BR>
>it's usually no more than a company.  If an entire Marine Task Force shows<BR>
>up, you are in *serious* trouble.  If anybody mentions "Armored Cavalry<BR>
>Regiment," learn Zhodani and start running Spinward.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if your world is average Imperial tech or below, a marine regiment is<BR>
certainly bad news. But as I pointed out during the playtest, marine regiments<BR>
in the _5th Frontier War_ game are no tougher than any other TL-15 regiment of<BR>
the same size (and they're not armored calvary, BTW). Indeed of the 8 marine<BR>
regiments in the countermix, only 2 are elite (though this is more than the<BR>
average 10% of troops that are said to be elite). The 4518th is stronger than<BR>
4 standard marine regiments put together. Granted, the 4518th is a very<BR>
special unit, but even so...<BR>
<BR>
Let's see, Rhylanor is said to have 25 brigades. Assume half of them are<BR>
cavalry and you'd need about 65 marine regiments to achieve parity...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:03:24 +0200<BR>
From: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TaUkVDFD?= <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
Hello Legate,<BR>
<BR>
you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     BTW, the Royal Marines are wusses compared the the US Marines.<BR>
>     Sorry, but I have seen the Royal Marines in combat, & they are as good<BR>
> as SEALs, meaning they are not that good in combat.  Sure they are in good<BR>
> shape, but their marksmanship is piss poor.<BR>
<BR>
And what about the SAS and SBS?<BR>
<BR>
And BTW, what's the American opinion of the German Bundeswehr's new<BR>
"Kommando Spezialkraefte"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
May the Force be with you,<BR>
M$T1C<BR>
wraith@gmx.li <BR>
ICQ: 63946001 <BR>
- --<BR>
"To infinity and beyond!"<BR>
  -Space Rgr. Buzz Lightyear<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:05:09 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
><BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
> >Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
> >being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
> >states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in<BR>
> sun.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
> were a world power at one time?  Geez, when did they find the time?<BR>
<BR>
Two names. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII. For my money, Charles XII is<BR>
one of the top 10 generals of all time - up their with Giap, Zhukov,<BR>
Alexander, Julius Ceasar, Washington, Napoleon and so on.<BR>
<BR>
The Swedes then decided that they didnt want to play with the big boys,<BR>
although this wasnt formalised until they hired the ex-French Marshall<BR>
Bernadotte as King (Nappy thought this was great. Until the Swedes signed up<BR>
in the next Coalition against France. Bernadotte wasn't stupid. No way *his*<BR>
new kingdom was going up against England, Russia, Prussia and Denmark. Ob<BR>
Trav reference should be obvious ... a Pocket Empire goes headhunting among<BR>
the Imperial Admirals for a leader) and he declared their policy of<BR>
Neutrality, which they then more-or-less permanently kept.<BR>
<BR>
The other ObTrav note is the Swedish East India Company, which was a quite<BR>
profitable niche player in trade with China and India for a while. Whilst<BR>
officially Swedish, it was actually funded by Dutch capitalists who didnt<BR>
like the Dutch East India Company's monopoly.<BR>
<BR>
Our resident Swedes can probably add more detail to each ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:07:55 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Norris' titles<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Note that the Marquis of Regina may not owe any feudal duty to<BR>
>the Duke of Regina (or to the County that Count Aledon holds, if<BR>
>any), nor are the Marquisate and the Duchy necessarily coincident<BR>
>(it would be likely that they are, but there is no necessity that<BR>
>they be).<BR>
 <BR>
I consider it very unlikely that the marquisate of Regina and the duchy of<BR>
Regina would be coincident. I've always assumed that the marquisate was<BR>
Regina System and the duchy was Regina Subsector(+Jewell Subsector (plus a<BR>
few odd planets in Aramis and Lanth, but the last bit is admittedly very<BR>
debatable)).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:21:26 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 6:46, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
> >> Seriously, I think that other countries should pay  back their<BR>
> >> loans to the US very soon, or we will be sending out our alien<BR>
> ass-kicking<BR>
> >> Marines to kick their asses.<BR>
<BR>
> >As soon as the US pays all those back taxes they owe the King of England.<BR>
<BR>
>     We did, when we saved your @$$es in WWI & WWII.  Of course you still do<BR>
> owe us for Lend-Lease from WWII.<BR>
<BR>
Gosh, its a wonder you can walk so well with your foot so high :*><BR>
<BR>
1. The "meaningful' US contribution to the 1st WW was confined to 1915-<BR>
16, and the US entry into the war actually considerably worsened the <BR>
Allies position. The war was won by the RN while the various armies <BR>
managed not to lose it.<BR>
<BR>
2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by <BR>
the time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had <BR>
firmed to the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly <BR>
unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities <BR>
of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
<BR>
4. In both Wars every nation made its sacrifices according to their ability. <BR>
Lend-Lease was paid back in blood over the fields of Britian, in the sands <BR>
of North Africa and on the streets of Stalingrad.<BR>
<BR>
I have no problems with a degree of chest-thumping, but sometimes it <BR>
needs to be put in context.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: not a darn thing (and my apologies for that, I'll drop it now).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 07:05:38 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
<BR>
Most modern city's don't have gates any more, the barbarians<BR>
have been inside the cities for decades now....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:19:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>Sorry, but to be honest with you, I have never had a <BR>
>high degree of respect for the Navy, it seems that they <BR>
>like a push-button war.<BR>
<BR>
You'd rather they boarded enemy warships with<BR>
pistol and cutlass? <G><BR>
<BR>
IMO, Heinlein had the right idea about how to fight a <BR>
war, given the choice.<BR>
<BR>
Marines and Army tend to kill more enemies by "pushing<BR>
a button" (the one on the radio set) than with rifles <BR>
and combat knives anyway.  Nature of modern warfare.<BR>
<BR>
I've heard that 50% of all casualties in WW2 were<BR>
caused by artillery, and that under certain combat<BR>
conditions - especially the generally open terrain<BR>
of the North Africa campaign - artillery accounted<BR>
for more than 70% of casualties.  Add in how many<BR>
were caused by air power, and the rifle-and-knife<BR>
soldier can claim very few kills.  Not that he isn't<BR>
vital, and doing the most dangerous job, but in many<BR>
ways the crux of his job is to find and fix the bad<BR>
guys so the "push button" warriors can kill them.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:24:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
on 5/19/00 7:21 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> As soon as the US pays all those back taxes they owe the King of England.<BR>
<BR>
No taxation without representation!! If we are going to pay our back taxes,<BR>
we want our seats in parliament!<BR>
<BR>
> Gosh, its a wonder you can walk so well with your foot so high :*><BR>
> <BR>
> 1. The "meaningful' US contribution to the 1st WW was confined to 1915-<BR>
> 16, and the US entry into the war actually considerably worsened the<BR>
> Allies position. The war was won by the RN while the various armies<BR>
> managed not to lose it.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Does anyone think that Naval power really had anything to do with Victory in<BR>
WW1? The Germans and Austrians have always been continental powers, while<BR>
England has been much more dependant on trade. The Battle of Jutland, for<BR>
example, was merely an exercise in testosterone. The submarine had more of<BR>
an impact in it's potential to interrupt British trade.<BR>
<BR>
By the time US forces entered the war, the Europeans had worn themselves<BR>
out.  The injection of a large body of fresh troops had a significant effect<BR>
on the war.  This would have been true wherever these troops had been from.<BR>
<BR>
> 2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by<BR>
> the time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had<BR>
> firmed to the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly<BR>
> unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
The war was won, like most wars, by logistics.  It was the vast amounts of<BR>
material flowing forth from fortress America in support of the allies that<BR>
carried the day.  The Germans always gave better than they got.  But their<BR>
advantages were offset by US factories churning out tanks, planes ammo,<BR>
etc., while their own factories were being bombed day and night.<BR>
<BR>
The reality is that very rarely are wars won by the abilities of commanders<BR>
or the bravery of troops.  Rather, it is the country that can put the most<BR>
equipment and troops in the field.<BR>
<BR>
What this has to do with traveller I don't know.  I am reminded of PJ<BR>
O'Rourke commentaries on the European fixation on attacking America.  I<BR>
wonder if Britain experienced the same thing when it was a world power?<BR>
<BR>
Should we decide the issue with a game of Trillion Credit Squadrons? or is<BR>
there nothing left save to wage horrible war?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:46:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
I'm curious as to what ship you were on.<BR>
<BR>
I spent nearly a combined year at sea spread out between the Juneau,<BR>
Frederick,<BR>
Pelelieu, Okinawa and a couple other LST's who's name I can't remember.<BR>
All of these ships are the "Gator Fleet" where the Marines outnumber the<BR>
Navy sometimes two to one on the smaller ships.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall the "mess jumping" scenario you described occurring even<BR>
once.  The Marine NCO's that were assigned to Ships Platoon wouldn't put<BR>
up with that kind of crap from Marines or Sailors.  Additionally, there<BR>
was always a Navy Line and a Marine line on every ship I've been on<BR>
where there were Sailors and Marines together.  The only time Marines<BR>
got "head of the line" privileges was when we were getting ready for an<BR>
operation.<BR>
<BR>
While I'm happy I never joined the Navy, we made quite a few friends<BR>
among the Gunners Mates when we were on the Freddie as their office was<BR>
in the ladderwell above on of the berthing areas.  They had their job to<BR>
do and we Marines had ours.<BR>
<BR>
I was very glad I was a Marine when they were doing all-night GQ drills,<BR>
and six on six off  watches at sea, they were happy they were in the<BR>
Navy when we hit the beach and spent weeks without a shower in lovely<BR>
third world countries.<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:35:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>For an interesting insight into the Spec War mind, I suggest "Rogue<BR>
>Warrior" by Richard Marcinko.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    To be honest with you "Rogue Warrior", while a good book is not as<BR>
good<BR>
as "Recon".  Sorry, but "Rogue Warrior" does not give you the insight<BR>
that<BR>
"Recon" does.<BR>
<BR>
>It also a good example what happens to wild & wooly shoot & loot types<BR>
when<BR>
>they lose their Rabbi.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Read "Recon", we do not lose our Rabbis.  Marines take care of their<BR>
<BR>
own, even if we do not like that person we will not mess with him, like<BR>
the<BR>
Navy fucked over Marcinko.<BR>
    To give you an idea, what the Navy did to Marcinko, one of their few<BR>
<BR>
good men, proved to me that all they are is shit haulers.  Of course<BR>
what do<BR>
you expect from a service that submits everytime & in everyway?<BR>
(Remember<BR>
in the ship's mess, Marines get to jump the line & sailors allow it.  If<BR>
a<BR>
sailor tries to jump the line on a Marine, well he gets his shit<BR>
jumped.)<BR>
    Sorry, but to be honest with you, I have never had a high degree of<BR>
respect for the Navy, it seems that they like a push-button war.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2458<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2459<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
RE: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The great leap forward<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:54:22 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> What this has to do with traveller I don't know.  I am reminded of PJ<BR>
> O'Rourke commentaries on the European fixation on attacking America.  I<BR>
> wonder if Britain experienced the same thing when it was a world power?<BR>
<BR>
Don't know about Britain, but the (thoroughly false) Black Legend <BR>
about Spain started when it was a World Power...<BR>
 <BR>
> Should we decide the issue with a game of Trillion Credit Squadrons? or is<BR>
> there nothing left save to wage horrible war?<BR>
<BR>
Hear! Hear!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Does the 3I has a fixation on attacking the Zhodani? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:22:46 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
...<BR>
>England has been much more dependant on trade. The Battle of Jutland, for<BR>
>example, was merely an exercise in testosterone. <BR>
<BR>
  We can only pretend to believe that because the British won :|<BR>
<BR>
>By the time US forces entered the war, the Europeans had worn themselves<BR>
>out.  The injection of a large body of fresh troops had a significant effect<BR>
>on the war.  This would have been true wherever these troops had been from.<BR>
<BR>
  Significant, but not decisive, or at least such was widely believed <BR>
at the time by people who knew what they were talking about (which<BR>
doesn't bar them from being wrong, of course).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:35:52 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by <BR>
>the time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had <BR>
>firmed to the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly <BR>
>unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
 Oh god, are the dumber Yanks lining themselves up for history lessons again?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:35:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
People, I posted a review of a *really* bad movie because I wanted to warn<BR>
y'all about how awful it was.  Now we have reached the point where a<BR>
discussion of Monicagate is about to break out.<BR>
<BR>
Fine.  I shall never again bother to share a movie review, since it obvious<BR>
that any discussion of *any* aspect of American culture will bring out the<BR>
Yanks in Space crowd.  Jens, I like you, and you make some good points, but<BR>
please read what I write below closely.<BR>
<BR>
I am an American.  I am *proud* of my country, proud enough to have served<BR>
in her armed forces of my own free will.  My father loved America so much<BR>
he left his native England to try his luck here.  He ended up with two kids<BR>
born on the 4th of July.<BR>
<BR>
Right now, at this point in history, the United States is the most powerful<BR>
nation in the world.  If this offends some people's sensibilities, too bad.<BR>
 We didn't ask for the job, we were dragged into both World Wars after<BR>
being attacked.<BR>
<BR>
Hollywood is in the state of California, which is part of the United<BR>
States.  The movie industry makes films that will open big here.  ID4 was<BR>
one of those.  It was a stupid, fun movie.  Anybody who took that piece of<BR>
celluloid seriously needs to chill.<BR>
<BR>
My last words on the subject.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:39:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Does the 3I has a fixation on attacking the Zhodani?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
More likely it's those small client states bitching about the 3I.  I'm sure<BR>
the Solomani go on at length, and the Old Vilani families. Just find any<BR>
group who once held power, any faded empire.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:15:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>>>> As soon as the US pays all those back taxes they owe the King of<BR>
England.<BR>
><BR>
>No taxation without representation!! If we are going to pay our back taxes,<BR>
>we want our seats in parliament!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Two things here.<BR>
    1. England, at this time, isn't ruled by a King, but a Queen, therefore,<BR>
until George the Third is crowned King of England again, I do not feel we<BR>
owe England any taxes.<BR>
    2. Not only our seats in the House of Commons, but the House of Lords.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:18:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
From: M$T1C <wraith@gmx.li><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hello Legate,<BR>
<BR>
>>     BTW, the Royal Marines are wusses compared the the US Marines.<BR>
>>     Sorry, but I have seen the Royal Marines in combat, & they are as<BR>
good<BR>
>> as SEALs, meaning they are not that good in combat.  Sure they are in<BR>
good<BR>
>> shape, but their marksmanship is piss poor.<BR>
><BR>
>And what about the SAS and SBS?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, I would have to rate them equal to Force Recon.<BR>
<BR>
>And BTW, what's the American opinion of the German Bundeswehr's new<BR>
>"Kommando Spezialkraefte"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, right now, I do not have anything good to say about Germans, of<BR>
course this might be due to the fact that a German Telemarketing Company<BR>
called me at 3 am & tried to sell me timeshares near the Black Forest.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:36:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
<BR>
<< Gosh, its a wonder you can walk so well with your foot so high :*> >><BR>
<BR>
    Uuummm, one thing here, I do not want to start a US vs. Europe thread<BR>
here, as it only creates flames.<BR>
<BR>
<< 1. The "meaningful' US contribution to the 1st WW was confined to<BR>
1915-16, and the US entry into the war actually considerably worsened the<BR>
Allies position. The war was won by the RN while the various armies managed<BR>
not to lose it. >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not really, you might want to read your history of WWI, again.  In 1915,<BR>
both the Allied & Central Powers had been bleed dry by Trench Warfare.  With<BR>
the entry of the US into the war, the Allies got an infusion of "new blood"<BR>
as it were, & were able to keep fighting.<BR>
    I will admit that the USEF did need Arty from the French & the Brits,<BR>
but we did pay for it, cash on the barrelhead.<BR>
<BR>
<< 2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by<BR>
the time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had<BR>
firmed to the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly<BR>
unlikely. >><BR>
<BR>
    In mid-1941, England was about 2 weeks from peace talks with Germany.<BR>
You might want to read Churchil's<sp> own thoughts about how close England<BR>
was to making a peace with Germany.<BR>
<BR>
<< 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities<BR>
of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too). >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    If you will break down the word, Lend-Lease into its two parts.  Lend &<BR>
Lease, of course with you being from New Zealand, I will make it simple for<BR>
you.<BR>
    Lend:  To loan.<BR>
    Lease:  To rent.<BR>
    You with me, so far?  Good.<BR>
    In 1939/1940 when FDR signed the Lend-Lease Act, basicly what happened<BR>
was that we would lend England, the Free French, the Russians, the Free<BR>
Polish, etc, etc, etc about 50% of what they needed to fight the Germans, &<BR>
we would lease the other 50% to them.<BR>
    Now, France, Russia, Poland, etc, etc, etc, has paid back the money they<BR>
owe us for the leasing of American materials used to fight the Germans, that<BR>
of course leaves England to repay their part of the debt, which they have in<BR>
part.  Of course until the debt is paid in full, it is not paid.<BR>
    As for Reverse Lend-Lease, well, how can I put this to you?  It never<BR>
happened.<BR>
<BR>
<< 4. In both Wars every nation made its sacrifices according to their<BR>
ability.  Lend-Lease was paid back in blood over the fields of Britian, in<BR>
the sands of North Africa and on the streets of Stalingrad. >><BR>
<BR>
    Actually, we do not take blood, but money.  As for the fields of<BR>
Britian, the sands of North Africa, well American Blood & a lot of it was<BR>
shed in that area.<BR>
    As for Stalingrad, the funny thing was, after the war was over, Stalin<BR>
repaid the debt his nation owed the US in full.<BR>
<BR>
<< I have no problems with a degree of chest-thumping, but sometimes it<BR>
needs to be put in context. >><BR>
<BR>
    Of course it does.  And, I will say this, England has never fully repaid<BR>
the US for its help durring the war, never has, never will, therefore it is<BR>
a Client State of the US & as such is treated that way by the US.  (If you<BR>
will notice when the Queen of England visits the US & calls upon the<BR>
President, she remains standing, while he sits down, until he asks her to<BR>
sit down.  With other world leaders, barring the US's other Client States,<BR>
both leaders sit down at about the same time.  In other words, by this<BR>
subtle clue, England is now a Client State of the US.)<BR>
<BR>
    ObTrav:  What would be the effect of something like Lend-Lease between<BR>
the 3I & a Client State?  How would the 3I get its money back.  Would they<BR>
take over the Client State if they did not repay the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:42:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>Sorry, but to be honest with you, I have never had a<BR>
>>high degree of respect for the Navy, it seems that they<BR>
>>like a push-button war.<BR>
><BR>
>You'd rather they boarded enemy warships with<BR>
>pistol and cutlass? <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, that is the job of the Marine's again.  Sorry, but boarding<BR>
actions are one of the reasons that the Marines were created, so that the<BR>
nancy-boys of the navy would not get covered in blood.<BR>
    Sorry, but the navy's one & only real purpose in life is the support the<BR>
Marine Corps.  Think about it, the navy takes the Marines to the combat<BR>
zone.  The navy supplies the Marine Corps.  The navy does everything that<BR>
the Marine Corps needs it to do, so that Marines are freed up to fight.  The<BR>
navy can roll in with a super carrier & bomb the hell out of a patch of<BR>
ground, but can they hold it, NO.  Who takes & hold ground?  A Marine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:42:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>Sorry, but to be honest with you, I have never had a<BR>
>>high degree of respect for the Navy, it seems that they<BR>
>>like a push-button war.<BR>
><BR>
>You'd rather they boarded enemy warships with<BR>
>pistol and cutlass? <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, that is the job of the Marine's again.  Sorry, but boarding<BR>
actions are one of the reasons that the Marines were created, so that the<BR>
nancy-boys of the navy would not get covered in blood.<BR>
    Sorry, but the navy's one & only real purpose in life is the support the<BR>
Marine Corps.  Think about it, the navy takes the Marines to the combat<BR>
zone.  The navy supplies the Marine Corps.  The navy does everything that<BR>
the Marine Corps needs it to do, so that Marines are freed up to fight.  The<BR>
navy can roll in with a super carrier & bomb the hell out of a patch of<BR>
ground, but can they hold it, NO.  Who takes & hold ground?  A Marine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:51:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Spec War Mind\<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Dixon <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I'm curious as to what ship you were on.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I did two deployments.  The USS America, the USS Abraham Lincoln, both<BR>
carriers.  One year at Gitmo, & one year at Diego.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't recall the "mess jumping" scenario you described occurring even<BR>
>once.  The Marine NCO's that were assigned to Ships Platoon wouldn't put<BR>
>up with that kind of crap from Marines or Sailors.  Additionally, there<BR>
>was always a Navy Line and a Marine line on every ship I've been on<BR>
>where there were Sailors and Marines together.  The only time Marines<BR>
>got "head of the line" privileges was when we were getting ready for an<BR>
>operation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, I have seen it quite a few times, with my enlisted as well as<BR>
with my NCOs.<BR>
<BR>
>While I'm happy I never joined the Navy, we made quite a few friends<BR>
>among the Gunners Mates when we were on the Freddie as their office was<BR>
>in the ladderwell above on of the berthing areas.  They had their job to<BR>
>do and we Marines had ours.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So have I, with the NCOs of the Navy, but not with the Officers, and as<BR>
a Marine Officer, I had to deal with naval officers every day.  And, my<BR>
thoughts on the navy were created by these officers.  Most of them I would<BR>
not trust, not to spit into the wind.<BR>
    To be honest with you, the navy tried to make my Marines DC crew on the<BR>
America, & on the Lincoln, they tried to do the same thing.  Basicly the<BR>
navy wanted my men to do a job that takes a lot of training to do.  And, in<BR>
this respect, I got to know a lot of the NCOs of the navy & found them to be<BR>
very good at their jobs, & in many cases much better at their jobs than<BR>
their officers.<BR>
<BR>
>I was very glad I was a Marine when they were doing all-night GQ drills,<BR>
>and six on six off  watches at sea, they were happy they were in the<BR>
>Navy when we hit the beach and spent weeks without a shower in lovely<BR>
>third world countries.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The funny thing was, that I really did not mind the not showering when I<BR>
was out in the bush, as I didn't have to hear from the navy what my Marines<BR>
had done wrong today.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:53:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Two names. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII. For my money, Charles XII is<BR>
>one of the top 10 generals of all time - up their with Giap, Zhukov,<BR>
>Alexander, Julius Ceasar, Washington, Napoleon and so on.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Both of them also were great inovators in land warfare.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:57:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
>Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a space service<BR>
>would in fact be all officers.<BR>
>>Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
>>everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
>>higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
>>major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
	IIRC, the ST RPG by FASA mentions that the Constitution class<BR>
	cruisers (such as the Enterprise of the original series) is crewed<BR>
	entirely buy officers.  Other vessels have enlisted personel.  This<BR>
	seams rather inefficient, but it does fit with the series.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:59:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> >By the time US forces entered the war, the Europeans had worn themselves<BR>
> >out.  The injection of a large body of fresh troops had a<BR>
> significant effect<BR>
> >on the war.  This would have been true wherever these troops had<BR>
> been from.<BR>
><BR>
>   Significant, but not decisive, or at least such was widely believed<BR>
> at the time by people who knew what they were talking about (which<BR>
> doesn't bar them from being wrong, of course).<BR>
><BR>
>         Steven Hudson<BR>
><BR>
I blame the French, who saddled the US troops with such abortions as the<BR>
Chauchaut Light machinegun.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:47:41 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Just about everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an<BR>
ensign<BR>
>>or higher...<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke     rancke@diku.dk replies:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>As I understand it, all starship personnel are officers. I think this arose<BR>
>from the fact that all astronauts were officers, so Roddenberry projected<BR>
>this scheme into the future.<BR>
<BR>
That seems rather bizarre, but Gene always had an idealistic view of the<BR>
future...perhaps that's why bridge officers, as you noted, outrank everyone<BR>
else of the bridge...although many non-bridge officers probably don't carry<BR>
line rank, so can't give orders, seeing as their research and survey<BR>
personnel (In TNG, both Crusher and Troi ended up converting their courtesy<BR>
rank to line rank.)<BR>
<BR>
>>O'Brien was the only<BR>
>>major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
>post, not a rank.<BR>
<BR>
I think they kept changing their mind about this. Originally, I think he was<BR>
supposed to be a Chief Petty Officer; I think the "Operator's Manual" said<BR>
he was actually an officer; but in later TNG and DS9, he was back to being a<BR>
petty officer. I know Worf's adopted father said that they were both Petty<BR>
Officers, and ISTR O'Brien saying some where in DS9 that he hadn't gone to<BR>
the Academy. They never did resolve the collar issue.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, if we really want to dissect ST, let's talk about using the military<BR>
for all research projects, the fact that the Federation is apparently a<BR>
military oligarchy (we only meet Starfleet personnel, and a lot of Starfleet<BR>
officers seem to ignore Federation directives pretty much whenever they want<BR>
to), and the general willingness to use the "Defensive Weapons" at the drop<BR>
of a hat...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:00:09 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Does anyone think that Naval power really had anything to do with Victory<BR>
in<BR>
>WW1? The Germans and Austrians have always been continental powers, while<BR>
>England has been much more dependant on trade. The Battle of Jutland, for<BR>
>example, was merely an exercise in testosterone. The submarine had more of<BR>
>an impact in it's potential to interrupt British trade.<BR>
<BR>
The Royal Navy blockade of Germany was critically important throughout the<BR>
war. Germany and Austria were literally starving by the end of the war.<BR>
Germany had to import, IIRC, something like 90% of its food before the war;<BR>
once the blockade was in place, civilians could get very little food for<BR>
themselves. Jutland was supposed to be the showdown that would break the<BR>
blockade, but throughout the war the Imperial Navy command and the Kaiser<BR>
were thoroughly intimidated by the British; they also feared losing their<BR>
one remaining strategic asset, and so never fully committed the navy, which<BR>
spent most of the war in port.<BR>
<BR>
>By the time US forces entered the war, the Europeans had worn themselves<BR>
>out.  The injection of a large body of fresh troops had a significant<BR>
effect<BR>
>on the war.  This would have been true wherever these troops had been from.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I think the US contribution was primarily one of increasing<BR>
morale. Pershing refused to allow his troops to mix with the British and<BR>
French, even when the German attacks in 1918 had nearly scored a<BR>
breakthrough (Black Jack did eventually relent in some places.) He was<BR>
probably extending the war, but given the tactics of Haig and Foch, it's<BR>
hard to fault him, whatever his rationale...US troops only really began to<BR>
engage the Germans towards the end of 1918, and then still only in a limited<BR>
part of the front. However, knowing that more Americans were on the way (I<BR>
forget the numbers, but Pershing wanted to have several corps ready by 1919)<BR>
boosted French morale (this was the period of massive mutinies throughout<BR>
the French Army) and demoralized the Germans, who had shot their wad by<BR>
summer of 1918 and were holding out for an armistice that wouldn't result in<BR>
total defeat.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:52:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Sword-Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
<BR>
Roger Wilco (tm) !<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Dan Roseberry" <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
> Whether theres something better (MIRC, AIM, etc)?<BR>
> Could these other chat programs work with the<BR>
> still developing Traveller On-Line setup?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:01:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> >Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a space service<BR>
> >would in fact be all officers.<BR>
> >>Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
> >>everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
> >>higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
> >>major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
> <BR>
> 	IIRC, the ST RPG by FASA mentions that the Constitution class<BR>
> 	cruisers (such as the Enterprise of the original series) is crewed<BR>
> 	entirely buy officers.  Other vessels have enlisted personel.  This<BR>
> 	seams rather inefficient, but it does fit with the series.<BR>
> <BR>
I think it just means that "officer" has a rather different meaning to<BR>
them than it has to most of us.<BR>
<BR>
and you also have to understand, that there is no one on a ship like that<BR>
that doesn't have at least a college education.  There really doesn't seem<BR>
to be any place in the ST universe for kids that drop out of high school<BR>
or college and sign up with the military to get away from wherever they're<BR>
at (something I surely would have done myself if my health had been<BR>
better).<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:03:12 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/19/00 9:00:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>  Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > When you make a film in a  country, you make<BR>
>  > it for the people in that country, not for the people in other countries.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Not entirely true. <BR>
>  Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
>  <grin><BR>
<BR>
That's because sheep don't pay to watch movies, only couch potatoes do <grin><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:59:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>I blame the French, who saddled the US troops with such abortions as the<BR>
>Chauchaut Light machinegun.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food, hairy women,<BR>
etc, etc, etc.  The list goes on & on.<BR>
<BR>
    ObTrav, do you think the Zhodani are a bit like the French in the fact<BR>
that their women are hairy, they don't know how to drink beer, & their<BR>
arrogance?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:03:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
<BR>
>>2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by<BR>
>>the time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had<BR>
>>firmed to the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly<BR>
>>unlikely.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh god, are the dumber Yanks lining themselves up for history lessons<BR>
again?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Acutally, I have just finished a book that talks about WWII, & it was<BR>
written by a Brit, & for the first time he does not claim that England won<BR>
the war with just a little help from America.  He claims that it was<BR>
Anglo-American teamwork that won the war.  I will agree that the Brits had<BR>
more experienced personel, but America had the industrial might to win the<BR>
war.  We could produce more of everything than England could & without<BR>
America, England would have starved.  Of course the fact that we did not<BR>
enforce the Neutrality Acts of 1939 & 1940 could have had something to do<BR>
with it as well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:04:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
> I've heard that 50% of all casualties in WW2 were<BR>
> caused by artillery, and that under certain combat<BR>
> conditions - especially the generally open terrain<BR>
> of the North Africa campaign - artillery accounted<BR>
> for more than 70% of casualties.  Add in how many<BR>
> were caused by air power, and the rifle-and-knife<BR>
> soldier can claim very few kills.  Not that he isn't<BR>
> vital, and doing the most dangerous job, but in many<BR>
> ways the crux of his job is to find and fix the bad<BR>
> guys so the "push button" warriors can kill them.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the number is closer to 90%. But that recollection may be<BR>
caused by brainwashing at Ft. Sill. I have some souvenirs of my previous<BR>
life which explain this. The fragments from artillery are big, heavy, jagged<BR>
pieces of metal, which can tear right through you. It's not like the shell<BR>
fragments you see removed on M*A*S*H. There was one I saw which was about<BR>
the size of a lawnmower blade. Extremely bad news. Bombs are even worse. I<BR>
have only seen 500 lb bombs in firepower demos. I can't imagine what the<BR>
2000 lb versions are like.<BR>
<BR>
In any event, I imagine that the firepower on high TL battlefields will be<BR>
even more impressive. This may be one major way in which, say TL12 warfare<BR>
differs from TL10 or TL8 warfare.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:09:25 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
>     Major population centers, & capitals.  Remember Dallas-Ft. Worth was<BR>
> also hit, but not Phoenix.  Could that be why I live here?  A major city who<BR>
> is 100% safe from Alien Attack & Nuclear War.<BR>
<BR>
Damn straight! Not even evil world-eating BEM's want to be in Phoenix!<BR>
Yuuuck!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:52:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:10 PM 5/18/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
>were a world power at one time?  Geez, when did they find the time?<BR>
<BR>
Through much of the late 16th and well into the 17th Century.  There's a<BR>
reason the Swedish seal has three crowns on it!  It was Sweden that broke<BR>
the power of the Hanseatic League in 1534, and they romped all over Russia<BR>
and Poland for decades.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,115262+12+108596,00.html<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:56:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward<BR>
<BR>
At 03:39 PM 5/19/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
>post, not a rank.<BR>
<BR>
In his first few seasons, he was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, later<BR>
becoming some sort of Warrant officer on DS9.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:59:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:54 PM 5/19/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Does the 3I has a fixation on attacking the Zhodani? <BR>
<BR>
The Domain of Deneb has a fixation on being attacked by the Zhodani.  I<BR>
think the rest of the Imperium would think of it as a regional problem.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2460<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Norris Titles (was Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
Unit conversions<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:16:08 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I believe "People of xxxx ethic origin" is the current phrase of choice.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't know what the proper genetic term is.<BR>
And that is too much a mouth full.  I think you<BR>
took my meaning.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:13:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
> >Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a<BR>
> space service<BR>
> >would in fact be all officers.<BR>
> >>Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
> >>everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
> >>higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
> >>major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
><BR>
> 	IIRC, the ST RPG by FASA mentions that the Constitution class<BR>
> 	cruisers (such as the Enterprise of the original series) is crewed<BR>
> 	entirely buy officers.  Other vessels have enlisted personnel.  This<BR>
> 	seams rather inefficient, but it does fit with the series.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
I suppose this has to do with one's perception of what an officer is.  Did<BR>
Roddenberry serve?<BR>
Personally, this sounds to me like rank inflation, something like the notion<BR>
common in the US that everyone needs a college degree, regardless of their<BR>
occupation. There are plenty of highly technical occupations that don't<BR>
require this.  IMHO, officer rank should be indicative of command.  The is<BR>
nothing shamefull about enlisted rank. The NCO is the backbone of most<BR>
services.  He should be respected as such.  All these extra officers leads<BR>
to something like Balaclava. Too many generals, not enough privates.<BR>
<BR>
So, what is the makeup of the 3I military?  Is it officer rich, or are<BR>
officers stern and remote beings that make a brief appearance, smelling<BR>
faintly of cologne (to badly misquote Heinlein).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:19:30 +0000<BR>
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <carlos.alos-ferrer@univie.ac.at><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
> > I believe "People of xxxx eth[n]ic origin" is the current phrase of choice.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, I don't know what the proper genetic term is.<BR>
> And that is too much a mouth full.  I think you took my meaning.<BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
"The third quarter of the orbital city is currently full of pink... <BR>
er... sophonts of human ethnic origin, terran subspecies. Hence, it <BR>
is unavoidable that things there sti... er... carry smells of <BR>
pink... er... smells of genetic human origin, which... oh, darn. <BR>
GROWL!" <g><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:25:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> I think it just means that "officer" has a rather different meaning to<BR>
> them than it has to most of us.<BR>
><BR>
> and you also have to understand, that there is no one on a ship like that<BR>
> that doesn't have at least a college education.  There really doesn't seem<BR>
> to be any place in the ST universe for kids that drop out of high school<BR>
> or college and sign up with the military to get away from wherever they're<BR>
> at (something I surely would have done myself if my health had been<BR>
> better).<BR>
><BR>
> Kiri<BR>
><BR>
 There are at least a few enlisted (and dropouts).  I seem to real a NG<BR>
episode (Drumhead, I think) that involved the court-martial of half-Romulan<BR>
who had dropped out of the Academy and enlisted in Starfleet.  ST:NG Fans,<BR>
help out.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:45:04 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
At 19:28 -0400 18/5/00, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
>I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
>understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
>historically.<BR>
<BR>
Have a look for 'Regeneration' which is a movie in the First World <BR>
War (IIRC), part of the award winning trilogy of books starting with <BR>
'the Ghost Road' by Pat Barker. The film had a limited release in UK <BR>
cinemas, I don't know about the US.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:54:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 0:10 -0400 19/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>    Please, the land of Oz is just as decandant as we are, we just have the<BR>
>good sense to know it.  At least we do not hound out our politicians because<BR>
>they have sex with women.<BR>
<BR>
Erm..... Three words here : Senate, Bill Clinton<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:57:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
At 0:10 -0400 19/5/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>The crusades are problematic, but that's exactly why a crusades movie would<BR>
>likely be fantastic. Plenty of room for drama as well as guys on horses. :)<BR>
<BR>
It'd be nice to see one from the point of the defenders of Constantinople.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:02:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
At 7:54 -0400 19/5/00,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>Recently I discovered a page which contained screenshots and reproductions<BR>
>of all of the test cards (we call them test patterns in America) ever run by<BR>
>BBC-1 and BBC-2. The one which was apparently used for the longest period of<BR>
>time was "Test Card F": The color test pattern with the little girl playing<BR>
>noughts & crosses (we call that tic-tac-toe in America) in the center.<BR>
>Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the television program<BR>
>ReBoot, which as far as I understand is American. How frequently did you<BR>
>folks in Britain see "Test Card F" anyway? If you wish to respond and not<BR>
>take up bandwidth, a private response is alright. I'm strangely curious<BR>
>about this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It was pretty common. BBC TV used to shut down around midnight until <BR>
the morning, unless it ran Open University courses.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:35:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>     ObTrav, do you think the Zhodani are a bit like the French in the fact<BR>
> that their women are hairy, they don't know how to drink beer, & their<BR>
> arrogance?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
I'm still laughing over this one.  It puts a unique spin on the Zhos.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:36:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>Sorry, but boarding actions are one of the reasons that <BR>
>the Marines were created, so that the nancy-boys of the <BR>
>navy would not get covered in blood.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you keep apologizing? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
My point was, do you have any idea how silly it sounds<BR>
to look down on someone for doing "push-button"<BR>
warfare when no other kind of warfare will work?<BR>
<BR>
Go ahead, sink an enemy cruiser with an assault rifle <BR>
during a shooting war.  Bring ten, we'll wait.<BR>
<BR>
Now try to assault and hold that vital coastal<BR>
objective with said cruiser sitting unmolested off the <BR>
coast.  You can't even *begin* to do your job until<BR>
the Navy wins at doing their's.<BR>
<BR>
>    Sorry, but the navy's one & only real purpose in <BR>
>life is the support the Marine Corps.  <BR>
<BR>
And the Air Force's only real purpose is to provide<BR>
air support for the Army.  And the Army and Marine's <BR>
only real purpose is to provide security forces for the <BR>
Air Force's forward air bases - though if they behave,<BR>
we'll let them go in afterwards and paint the lines<BR>
on the parking lots we've made out of the enemy <BR>
country.<BR>
<BR>
Each service from the Coast Guard to the Merchant<BR>
Marine thinks they have it toughest and do the most<BR>
important job.  It must be the nature of military<BR>
service. <G><BR>
<BR>
>Think about it, the navy takes the Marines to the <BR>
>combat zone.  The navy supplies the Marine Corps.  The <BR>
>navy does everything that the Marine Corps needs it to <BR>
>do, so that Marines are freed up to fight. <BR>
<BR>
You see them as taxi drivers because you've never had <BR>
the pleasure of being in a world war.  I dearly hope<BR>
we never, ever see one again.  <BR>
<BR>
> Who takes & hold ground?  A Marine.<BR>
<BR>
This is kind of amusing, I haven't seen this kind of<BR>
"I can whip a dozen of your best men with both hands<BR>
tied behind my back" jingoism since I read my dad's<BR>
1950's war comics.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Inter-service rivalries should translate<BR>
pretty directly, of course, from modern day to 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:47:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Norris Titles (was Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Duke Commander Sir Norris, of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of<BR>
> Regina, Baron Yori.<BR>
<BR>
Regency SB also specified his knighthood's as<BR>
OEG, OC, ODM and, as already mentioned, that he was the Archduke <BR>
of Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:04:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Unit conversions<BR>
<BR>
It was just pointed out to me that there is a website which does lots of<BR>
unit conversions for you: http://www.megaconverter.com/mega2/<BR>
<BR>
It can do all sorts of fun stuff, like giving you your weight on all of the<BR>
planets, the moons of Jupiter, the sun (really!) and others. Ancient<BR>
volumes, ancient weights, all sorts of fun stuff. It looks like a good<BR>
gearhead resource. There is even a conversion factor spreadsheet there.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:05:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>At 0:10 -0400 19/5/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>>The crusades are problematic, but that's exactly why a crusades movie<BR>
would<BR>
>>likely be fantastic. Plenty of room for drama as well as guys on horses.<BR>
:)<BR>
><BR>
>It'd be nice to see one from the point of the defenders of Constantinople.<BR>
<BR>
It certainly wouldn't hurt. Personally, I think that Byzantium is woefully<BR>
under-represented.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:13:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
>understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
>historically.<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of World War I movies, and a lot of really fantastic ones.<BR>
I've seen people point out a number of them, but I can't recommend "All<BR>
Quiet on the Western Front" enough.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:27:28 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion overcame tremendous adversity to write:<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >I blame the French, who saddled the US troops with such abortions as the<BR>
> >Chauchaut Light machinegun.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>     Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
> Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
<BR>
Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In <BR>
heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:32:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000 GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  There are some big impressive battles in history that most westerners never <BR>
> get in their histories due to being either poorly documented or being <BR>
> considered none of our business...  I stumbled over a 12-year old copy of <BR>
> National Geographic the other day and learned of the campaigns by Sulieman <BR>
> the Magnificent, the fellow who brought the Ottoman Empire to its peak of <BR>
> power in the 1600s. All the wealth and opulence, all the big battles between <BR>
> big personalities (he caused the downfall and destruction of the last great <BR>
> empire in Egypt; name escapes me), plenty of room for the cast of thousands, <BR>
> intrigue galore, implacable foes, etc. Marvelous stuff, but the man was a <BR>
> Sunni Moslem, his empire was for the greater glory of Muhammed, and the Turks <BR>
> (the last remnant of that empire) are hardly the world's most talked about <BR>
> people these days. So Hollywood doesn't care...<BR>
<BR>
They'd care if you had a script like most other "blockbusters" (basic<BR>
plot with lots of action, skin and as most complexity as you can get<BR>
away with and not lose the first two), and have top-name, high Q stars<BR>
("...with George Clooney as Sulieman...").  If it's enough like other<BR>
movies that they [Hollywood financiers] feel the movie will give a<BR>
return on the investment, there's a chance it would get made.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think the setting would matter too much - they could play it<BR>
up for it's "exoticism".  What of the big pictures of yore about<BR>
Cleopatra et al.?  Not the typical American Methodist there. :) I'm<BR>
sure there are other examples.  If it's a different religion/culture,<BR>
downplay it and/or change it enough so it's palatable for the American<BR>
masses. (Not my favorite option, but it make getting financing for<BR>
such a movie easier.)<BR>
<BR>
But in general, yes, there are lots of great stories in history we<BR>
[Americans] (or at least I) sadly don't learn about that would make<BR>
great movies.<BR>
<BR>
What about good sci-fi novels or short stories?  <BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:07:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
> >     Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
> > Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
><BR>
> Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
> heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
><BR>
> -Russell B<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The French are the chefs, the British the policemen and the Germans the<BR>
mechanics.<BR>
<BR>
In hell they're all driving French cars, eating English food and have German<BR>
Police.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:33:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Well, we've learned from our forebears.. Britain, France, *Sweden*...<BR>
>>being a world shattering power, able to shape the destinies of lesser<BR>
>>states doesn't last forever.  Therefore, I'm going to enjoy our time in<BR>
> sun.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
> were a world power at one time?  Geez, when did they find the time?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, they were. It was around the Napoleonic era if I recall correctly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:37:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 19 May 00, at 6:46, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities <BR>
> of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, a lot of folks in the US were (and still are) quite<BR>
upset that all the *privately owned* rifles collected in the US and<BR>
sent to to the UK for Home Guard use, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT<BR>
THEY'D BE RETURNED AFTER THE WAR, were instead collected up and<BR>
*destroyed*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:56:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> OB Trav<BR>
><BR>
> The players arrive on a planet to discover that all the shops have<BR>
> just shut, the bars don't open for a couple of hours and the local<BR>
> entertainment networks are showing holovid alignment patterns.<BR>
<BR>
It occurs to me that there really should be *two* types of "3d" TV<BR>
developed in the future.<BR>
<BR>
Stereovision: Much like a 3d movie or a hologram, the screen is a<BR>
              "window" on scenes with true depth. But no special<BR>
              glasses are required.<BR>
              Some special theatres will have "Surround Stereovision"<BR>
              (SSV?) which will have SV screens surrounding the<BR>
              audience, so no matter *where* you look, you'll see what<BR>
              the viewpoint character sees. (limited VR, without a<BR>
              headset, or Omnimax with 3d glasses, without the glasses)<BR>
<BR>
True 3d: this will likely get called "holovision" or some such.<BR>
         Abbrieviations HV, 3V. With this, you are "outside, looking<BR>
         in" on a "tank" display, which you can walk around. <BR>
<BR>
HV displays will get devoloped for computer graphics *long* before they<BR>
get used for entertainment. After all, you see just what's *in* the<BR>
tank, not any of the background.<BR>
<BR>
Battle and navigation displays will use HV most of the time, though SSV<BR>
displays are useful for some tactical plots (it'd be as if the command<BR>
deck was floating in space, except that you'd see stuff that the naked<BR>
eye couldn't. With really good gear, or a head mounted display, even<BR>
the deck disappears.<BR>
<BR>
Many miltary types strongly disapprove of combat use of SSV because<BR>
they feel that by placing the commander "in" the middle of the display,<BR>
rather than outside looking in, it destroys the "necessary detachment"<BR>
they feel commanders should have.<BR>
<BR>
Others feel that it encourages commanders to consider osses more<BR>
carefully, and discourages the "pieces on a gameboard" mentality of HV<BR>
displays. <BR>
<BR>
Even the anti-SSV folks will grudgingly agree that it can be useful for<BR>
determining what they *enemy* can and can't see if you have enough data<BR>
to generated an SSV display centered on *him*.<BR>
<BR>
The debate rages on, and most ships are equipped for both SSV and HV on<BR>
the bridge and in CIC. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:21:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I said I wouldn't comment further<BR>
> "but they keep dragging me back in."<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Assume a cross-sectional area of 2 sq in (or a bit under 1.6" dia.).<BR>
>> That gives a volume of 0.29 gallons, or 1.2 *quarts*.<BR>
><BR>
> Thats not all blood.<BR>
<BR>
Tru, but even *flaccid* some of it is. And the difference between<BR>
flaccid and erect is *all* blood.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:20:16 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
Doug stands up and says<BR>
<BR>
> People, I posted a review of a *really* bad movie because I wanted to warn<BR>
> y'all about how awful it was.  Now we have reached the point where a<BR>
> discussion of Monicagate is about to break out.<BR>
> <BR>
> Fine.  I shall never again bother to share a movie review, since it obvious<BR>
> that any discussion of *any* aspect of American culture will bring out the<BR>
> Yanks in Space crowd.  Jens, I like you, and you make some good points, but<BR>
> please read what I write below closely.<BR>
> <BR>
> I am an American.  I am *proud* of my country, proud enough to have served<BR>
> in her armed forces of my own free will.  My father loved America so much<BR>
> he left his native England to try his luck here.  He ended up with two kids<BR>
> born on the 4th of July.<BR>
> <BR>
> Right now, at this point in history, the United States is the most powerful<BR>
> nation in the world.  If this offends some people's sensibilities, too bad.<BR>
>  We didn't ask for the job, we were dragged into both World Wars after<BR>
> being attacked.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hollywood is in the state of California, which is part of the United<BR>
> States.  The movie industry makes films that will open big here.  ID4 was<BR>
> one of those.  It was a stupid, fun movie.  Anybody who took that piece of<BR>
> celluloid seriously needs to chill.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I have been keeping my mouth shut, because Doug does a good <BR>
job defending America with a sense of hunor as well.  But Doug is <BR>
right and if he was near by I would High Five him for this.  Both of <BR>
my fathers served in the U.S. military and risked their life so we <BR>
that is Americans could watch our stupid films.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:36:06 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > I think it just means that "officer" has a rather different meaning to<BR>
> > them than it has to most of us.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > and you also have to understand, that there is no one on a ship like that<BR>
> > that doesn't have at least a college education.  There really doesn't seem<BR>
> > to be any place in the ST universe for kids that drop out of high school<BR>
> > or college and sign up with the military to get away from wherever they're<BR>
> > at (something I surely would have done myself if my health had been<BR>
> > better).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Kiri<BR>
> ><BR>
> There are at least a few enlisted (and dropouts).  I seem to real a NG<BR>
>episode (Drumhead, I think) that involved the court-martial of half-Romulan<BR>
>who had dropped out of the Academy and enlisted in Starfleet.  ST:NG Fans,<BR>
>help out.<BR>
<BR>
I may be mistaken here.<BR>
The only time I remember having heard anyone called by rank has been <BR>
the bridge officers or the higher ranking starfleet officers in NG. <BR>
If there are enlisted ranks they have been obscured and all <BR>
non-officer crew are either "crewmen" or civilians.<BR>
The episode you recall was indeed called Drumhead. And it did have to <BR>
do with crew member whos grandfather was Romulan. I don't remember if <BR>
the crewmen was a drop out or not but he wasn't an officer. And I <BR>
only remember him being addressed as simply "crewman"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:25:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a space service<BR>
> would in fact be all officers.<BR>
<BR>
Sort of. There *were* "space marine" types who *did* have enlisted.<BR>
<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? Just about<BR>
>> everybody we meet in ST has been to the Academy and is an ensign or<BR>
>> higher...even their away teams are mostly officers. O'Brien was the only<BR>
>> major enlisted character in the, what, 500+ episodes of all the shows!<BR>
<BR>
Well, in the original series Rodenberry made it *explicit* in the<BR>
writer's guidelines that Starfleet was 100% officers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:16:51 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>And what about the SAS and SBS?<BR>
><BR>
>And BTW, what's the American opinion of the German Bundeswehr's new<BR>
>"Kommando Spezialkraefte"?<BR>
<BR>
And do not forget our GSG 9 special Anti-Terror Police Squad,<BR>
which is generally seen as one of the best in the world.<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:21:33 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
>What this has to do with traveller I don't know.  I am reminded of PJ<BR>
>O'Rourke commentaries on the European fixation on attacking America.  I<BR>
>wonder if Britain experienced the same thing when it was a world power?<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, to me it always seemed like the Americans being slightly paranoid in <BR>
this respect. I have never heard of any "European", German or French plans <BR>
to invade America during the last 100 years, apart from US wargames, <BR>
movies, etc.<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:23:36 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
At 18:18 19.05.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Well, right now, I do not have anything good to say about Germans, of<BR>
>course this might be due to the fact that a German Telemarketing Company<BR>
>called me at 3 am & tried to sell me timeshares near the Black Forest.<BR>
<BR>
Ouch! We have those, too? Seems that they only operate abroad, since i have <BR>
never received any calls of this sort, nor has anyone i know.<BR>
<BR>
Are you sure they were calling from Germany?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:26:31 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >By the time US forces entered the war, the Europeans had worn themselves<BR>
> >out.  The injection of a large body of fresh troops had a significant effect<BR>
> >on the war.  This would have been true wherever these troops had been from.<BR>
Hmm, all the while our history books tell us that it was the American <BR>
Troops who suffered the heaviest losses in WWI, mostly due to the fact that <BR>
they were mostly green units and had no idea on how to fight in trenches. <BR>
Modern warfare was over their heads at that time as well. By WWII they had <BR>
learned quite a bit, but in their first AO (Africa) they took severe <BR>
beatings as well, at least in the first couple of battles.<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2460<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2461<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
Re: The great leap forward<BR>
Re:Great Leap Forward<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
Re: WW1 Films<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Re:Great Leap Forward<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2460<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
RE: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:28:06 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>    Not really, you might want to read your history of WWI, again.  In 1915,<BR>
>both the Allied & Central Powers had been bleed dry by Trench Warfare.  With<BR>
>the entry of the US into the war, the Allies got an infusion of "new blood"<BR>
>as it were, & were able to keep fighting.<BR>
<BR>
Quite right. New BLOOD the americans provided indeed. Drawn by german <BR>
machineguns, of course.<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:06:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>>  I stumbled over a 12-year old copy of <BR>
> > National Geographic the other day and learned of the campaigns by Sulieman <BR>
> > the Magnificent, the fellow who brought the Ottoman Empire to its peak of <BR>
> > power in the 1600s. <BR>
<snip><BR>
>>So Hollywood doesn't care...<BR>
> <BR>
> They'd care if you had a script like most other "blockbusters" (basic<BR>
> plot with lots of action, skin and as most complexity as you can get<BR>
> away with and not lose the first two), and have top-name, high Q stars<BR>
> ("...with George Clooney as Sulieman...").  <BR>
<BR>
The only problem with this plan is that George Clooney would be<BR>
killed if he ever stepped foot in a Greek restraunt...<BR>
<BR>
(I live in a Greek neighborhood in New York. I saw notices on the<BR>
street corners today, they're protesting against Turkey. No, they<BR>
aren't protesting a specific incident, they're protesting against<BR>
*everything* Turks have *ever* done to Greeks. The posters gave<BR>
a list of examples from the sacking of Constantinople to<BR>
the Cypriot civil war, 500 years of things to be pissed off<BR>
about. I've never seen anything like it, makes the Irish and the<BR>
Arabs and the Jews look like pikers... )<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:27:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Nuking something below the Van Allen belts is a VERY<BR>
>>BAD IDEA. That sort of thing is how we learned about<BR>
>>EMP. Also, you'll kill anybody else in orbit. Lethal<BR>
>>range for radaition from a nuke in vacuum is<BR>
>>thousands of miles. <BR>
><BR>
> How would you approach calculating the lethal range? <BR>
<BR>
Easy. We've done it before on the list. You start with the fact that 90%<BR>
(maybe 95% or better!) of the energy release of a nuclear weapon is in<BR>
the "soft x-ray" band. <BR>
<BR>
In an atmosphere, this is absorbed *rapidly* by the air. That's because<BR>
at that wavelength air isn't much more transparent than *rock*. <BR>
<BR>
So in air, the energy gets turned into superheated air and plasma,<BR>
which gives the light pulse, and IR "heat pulse" of the bomb. <BR>
<BR>
In vacuum, the x-rays just keep travelling until they hit something. At<BR>
that point you use the inverse square law to figure intensity. <BR>
<BR>
1 megaton = 4.2e15 Joules.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> And why particularly bad below the Van Allens?<BR>
<BR>
Above the Van Allens, stations will *require* protection against the<BR>
particle radiation from solar flares, which *often* deliver doses that<BR>
can  not merely *kill* you, but incapacitate you in as little as 15<BR>
minutes. <BR>
<BR>
Below the Van Allens, we are shielded from this, so the stations don't<BR>
need shielding. The Apollo missions would have used the service module<BR>
for "shadow shielding" if there'd been a flare during a mission. If the<BR>
astronuats on the lunar surface couldn't return in time, they'd die.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, quoting from a discussion on rec.arts.sf.science, <BR>
Erik Max Francis <max@alcyone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Or work backwards.  A short-term, whole-body LD50 dose of radiation<BR>
> is roughly 4 Sv.  X rays have a quality factor of 1, so that comes to<BR>
> 4 Gy.<BR>
> <BR>
> The average mass of a human male is something like 70 kg, so that<BR>
> means the total LD50 exposure will be roughly 280 J of x rays.  If<BR>
> the human body has an average cross-sectional area of, say, 0.2 m^2<BR>
> (just a rough estimate), then the lethal intensity will be about 1400<BR>
> J/m^2.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, crossectional area of a human body *can* be as much<BR>
as 1 m^2! I get 0.2 m^ as more like the *minimum* cross-sectional area.<BR>
1m ^2 gives a lethal intensity of merely 280 J/m^2.<BR>
<BR>
> For a 100 kt TNT equivalent device (418 TJ, not 4.18 TJ), the LD50<BR>
> exposure distance, presuming that 90% of the energy (380 TJ) is<BR>
> emitted as x rays, and that there is no degradation of the energy on<BR>
> its way to the target, is 150 km.<BR>
<BR>
This is assuming the 0.2 m^2 average cross section. Going with 1 m^2<BR>
means that the lethal range goes up by sqrt(5) or 2.24. Which gives 335<BR>
km.<BR>
<BR>
A 1 megaton device would be lethal at 3 times (actually sqrt(10)) the<BR>
distance, or 474 to 1060 km. <BR>
<BR>
So I recalled the figures incorrectly. That's *still* quite a lethal<BR>
radius.<BR>
<BR>
So, roughly speaking (and rounding for convenience):<BR>
<BR>
        lethal distance<BR>
yield	min	max<BR>
- ------	------	------<BR>
1 kT	15	35<BR>
10 kT	50	100<BR>
100 kT	150	350<BR>
1 MT	500	1000<BR>
10 MT	1500	3500<BR>
100 MT	5000	10,000<BR>
1 GT	15,000	35,000<BR>
10 GT	50,000	100,000<BR>
100 GT	150,000	350,000<BR>
<BR>
So a 100 GT bomb could kill all unprotected personnel in a one light<BR>
second radius! And while that's a *big* bomb, it's like to be easily<BR>
buildable. Remember, the Soviets *tested* a 100 MT bomb back in the<BR>
late 50s. <BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, a blast inside the Van Allen belts or outside, but relatively<BR>
close, will cause all sorts of nasty effects as it pumps more energy<BR>
into them. Expect effects similar to those of a *major* solar flare<BR>
from a small bomb and scaling up from there.  <BR>
<BR>
This is based on "Project Farside" back in the 50s, which detonated a<BR>
(*small*) nuke high in the ionosphere over the Pacific, and as a result<BR>
subjected Hawaii to the first manmade EMP!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:13:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Fred Ramen writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Notice how both of them seem to have inflated officer corps? <BR>
><BR>
> It seems that they have a radically different command scheme. Notice how a<BR>
> brigde officer seems to outramk anyone off the bridge regardless of relative<BR>
> formal rank?<BR>
<BR>
That's "command grade" versus "non-command". It happens in some *recent*<BR>
historical (and even current?) military structures. ST:TNG even had an<BR>
episode where Dr. Crusher took the test to become command grade (and<BR>
earn a red shirt. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I think the modern miltaries that draw this distinction make it between<BR>
"line" and "technical" officers. For example, it doesn't matter if a<BR>
doctor is a colonel, if he's not a *line* officer, he *wiull* take<BR>
orders from a *captain* who *is* a line officer in anything that isn't<BR>
medical. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:15:56 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Great Leap Forward<BR>
<BR>
in the original Technical Manual for Star Fleet (ST), the constitution class<BR>
vessels all indicate that full compliment was 43 command officers and 387<BR>
crew of ensign grade.   Dreadnoughts, Destroyers, Scouts, Transports/Tugs<BR>
all had crews of ensign grade with higher command officers.<BR>
    Now, isn't that special!<BR>
<BR>
"I like you Navy boys.  Everytime there a war, your kind enough to give us a<BR>
lift."  Long live Imperial Marines.  Oh, pardon me,  long live Marine Mercs!<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > How would you approach calculating the lethal range? <BR>
> <BR>
> Easy. We've done it before on the list. You start with the fact that 90%<BR>
> (maybe 95% or better!) of the energy release of a nuclear weapon is in<BR>
> the "soft x-ray" band. <BR>
<BR>
> > Or work backwards.  A short-term, whole-body LD50 dose of radiation<BR>
> > is roughly 4 Sv.  X rays have a quality factor of 1, so that comes to<BR>
> > 4 Gy.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > The average mass of a human male is something like 70 kg, so that<BR>
> > means the total LD50 exposure will be roughly 280 J of x rays.  If<BR>
> > the human body has an average cross-sectional area of, say, 0.2 m^2<BR>
> > (just a rough estimate), then the lethal intensity will be about 1400<BR>
> > J/m^2.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, crossectional area of a human body *can* be as much<BR>
> as 1 m^2! I get 0.2 m^ as more like the *minimum* cross-sectional area.<BR>
> 1m ^2 gives a lethal intensity of merely 280 J/m^2.<BR>
> <BR>
> > For a 100 kt TNT equivalent device (418 TJ, not 4.18 TJ), the LD50<BR>
> > exposure distance, presuming that 90% of the energy (380 TJ) is<BR>
> > emitted as x rays, and that there is no degradation of the energy on<BR>
> > its way to the target, is 150 km.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is assuming the 0.2 m^2 average cross section. Going with 1 m^2<BR>
> means that the lethal range goes up by sqrt(5) or 2.24. Which gives 335<BR>
> km.<BR>
> <BR>
> A 1 megaton device would be lethal at 3 times (actually sqrt(10)) the<BR>
> distance, or 474 to 1060 km. <BR>
> <BR>
> So I recalled the figures incorrectly. That's *still* quite a lethal<BR>
> radius.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, bear in mind that the energy is mostly in the form of soft X-rays, which can be stopped with minimal shielding.  The gamma radiation kill radius (for which real shielding is required) around 1/5 of these numbers.<BR>
> <BR>
> So, roughly speaking (and rounding for convenience):<BR>
> <BR>
>         lethal distance<BR>
> yield     min     max<BR>
> ------     ------     ------<BR>
> 1 kT     15     35<BR>
> 10 kT     50     100<BR>
> 100 kT     150     350<BR>
> 1 MT     500     1000<BR>
> 10 MT     1500     3500<BR>
> 100 MT     5000     10,000<BR>
> 1 GT     15,000     35,000<BR>
> 10 GT     50,000     100,000<BR>
> 100 GT     150,000     350,000<BR>
> <BR>
> So a 100 GT bomb could kill all unprotected personnel in a one light<BR>
> second radius! And while that's a *big* bomb, it's like to be easily<BR>
> buildable. Remember, the Soviets *tested* a 100 MT bomb back in the<BR>
> late 50s. <BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yeah, a blast inside the Van Allen belts or outside, but relatively<BR>
> close, will cause all sorts of nasty effects as it pumps more energy<BR>
> into them. Expect effects similar to those of a *major* solar flare<BR>
> from a small bomb and scaling up from there.  <BR>
> <BR>
> This is based on "Project Farside" back in the 50s, which detonated a<BR>
> (*small*) nuke high in the ionosphere over the Pacific, and as a result<BR>
> subjected Hawaii to the first manmade EMP!<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:24:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WW1 Films<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:12 PM, roc@kewl.com.au issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>> glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
>> understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
>> historically.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> I think you will fond many on that subject have been made, but the majority<BR>
> probably before or around the WWII era.  I think between the wars, they were<BR>
> pumped out and the quality of remaining stock isn't that good now, so we<BR>
> just don't see them aired, which I personally feel, is sad.<BR>
> <BR>
> -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
Yes, this is true, I meant /current/ films. Matthew Bond posted a list (and<BR>
I flagged it) that surprised me, as far as how many had actually been made.<BR>
I must check some of them out, but I would like to see a modern film cover<BR>
the era.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:17:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't help but just jump into the fray.<BR>
<BR>
Independence Day is just one movie that portrays the USA as saviors of the world.<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, we have to look at a much larger trend.  That of the British saving the world!!!<BR>
<BR>
Sir James Bond, British secret agent extroidinaire (sp), has saved the world countless times <BR>
(although not from aliens).  The series is an American production, but it features a British <BR>
super hero.  It is an example of the homage that Americans place on all things British.  Sure, <BR>
of course, an American could single-handedly save the world with one hand tied behind his <BR>
back, but the British do it with style and class.<BR>
<BR>
World War I -- The Great War:  The war was stalemated on the western and Italian fronts.  <BR>
The eastern front ended in a German victory when Russia withdrew due to civil war.  The <BR>
Turkish front had collapsed and Austria-Hungary was disintegrating.  It would not be much <BR>
longer before it was Germany versus the entire world and the withdrawal of Russia was NOT <BR>
enough to avoid eventual defeat.  The entry of the United States meant that Germany would <BR>
not be able to achieve a quick victory in the West--eventual defeat was certain.  When <BR>
Germany's 1918 offensives failed to achieve victory, Germany threw in the towel and sought a <BR>
negotiated peace.  Unrestricted submarine warfare brought in the United States.  Germany <BR>
took a huge gamble on trying to knock Britain out of the war, before American materiel <BR>
superiority could be brought to bear.  I am unclear as to the details of this underwater <BR>
campaign, but I believe Britain (with limited American assistance) was able to control this <BR>
threat to the extent that it could survive.  If Britain had negotiated a separate peace, then even <BR>
with the entry of the USA I think the Allies would have sued for peace (where Germany would <BR>
have retained its war gains).<BR>
<BR>
The Great War is fascinating which could have easily gone either way.  The outcome of this <BR>
war has greatly influenced the twentieth century--providing the background to World War II and <BR>
the Cold War.  It is impossible to understand the context of these two wars without also <BR>
understanding the causes and outcome of The Great War.  The Great War, unlike World War <BR>
II, has no side that is ultimate evil.<BR>
<BR>
World War II:  The Soviet Union basically won this war (not Britain or the USA).  The USSR <BR>
practically single-handedly defeated the Germans on the eastern front.  German casualties <BR>
were far higher on the eastern front then all the other fronts combined.  The British contribution <BR>
was to stay in the war.  The American contribution was to shorten the war and ensure that the <BR>
eventual Warsaw Pact would only be Eastern Europe and not all of continental Europe.  The <BR>
Soviet Union could have defeated the Germans entirely by themselves.  The D Day Invasion <BR>
would have been far more instrumental if it had been launched in 1943 rather then 1944.  I <BR>
recognize that this interpretation of WW2 is different than most people's understanding, but <BR>
this is my interpretation of history.<BR>
<BR>
Sole World Superpower:  Yes we are.  This is not the first time in history that a country has <BR>
so dominated the world.  Earlier great powers include Britain and Spain.  An excellent book is <BR>
"The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy.  The United States will, however, <BR>
not be the sole Great Power forever;  eventually, its reign will end.  It is interesting to <BR>
speculate on what country (or region) will be the successor Great Power.  My guess is that <BR>
some sort of centralized European Union will be the successor Great Power--it already has a <BR>
combined population and economy greater than the USA.  I also believe some sort of future <BR>
world government will be based on the EU model.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:34:59 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Great Leap Forward<BR>
<BR>
I played sheepshead with an exMarine last week whose sole interest during<BR>
his service was to paint "Taxi" on the side of every Navy ship he saw.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Great Leap Forward<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "I like you Navy boys.  Everytime there a war, your kind enough to give us<BR>
a<BR>
> lift."  Long live Imperial Marines.  Oh, pardon me,  long live Marine<BR>
Mercs!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:44:07 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> 1 MT    500     1000<BR>
> 10 MT   1500    3500<BR>
> 100 MT  5000    10,000<BR>
> 1 GT    15,000  35,000<BR>
> 10 GT   50,000  100,000<BR>
> 100 GT  150,000 350,000<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gad I've gotta get these acronyms outta my head...<BR>
<BR>
I saw that list and went "Jeez Gurps is a major munchkin machine...look<BR>
how much more powerful GT version bombs are over MegaT..."<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:41:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/19/00 4:53 AM, frankie@mundens.gen.nz issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>> glossed over by Hollywood. Not ancient history, but I think it is a poorly<BR>
>> understood (by the general populace) time, and yet very important<BR>
>> historically.<BR>
> <BR>
> The problem is that it would be very hard to beat "All Quiet On The Western<BR>
> Front"<BR>
> <BR>
> Frankie<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, but I'd like to see somebody try. But not a remake of AQOTWF, as I<BR>
prefer remakes to fix potentially good movies done poorly.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder writes:<BR>
<BR>
> World War II:  The Soviet Union basically won this war (not Britain or the<BR>
> USA).  The USSR  practically single-handedly defeated the Germans on the<BR>
> eastern front.  German casualties  were far higher on the eastern front then<BR>
> all the other fronts combined.  The British contribution  was to stay in the<BR>
> war.  The American contribution was to shorten the war and ensure that the  eventual Warsaw Pact would only be Eastern Europe and not all of continental Europe.  The <BR>
> Soviet Union could have defeated the Germans entirely by themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that depends.  The Germans were fighting on several fronts, and the Americans were providing significant material assistance to the Russians.  Also, casualties really aren't everything, the air campaign against German industry was certainly important.<BR>
<BR>
> Sole World Superpower:  Yes we are.  This is not the first time in history<BR>
> that a country has  so dominated the world.  Earlier great powers include<BR>
> Britain and Spain.  An excellent book is  "The Rise and Fall of the Great<BR>
> Powers" by Paul Kennedy.  The United States will, however,  not be the sole<BR>
> Great Power forever;  eventually, its reign will end.  It is interesting to  speculate on what country (or region) will be the successor Great Power.  My guess is that <BR>
> some sort of centralized European Union will be the successor Great<BR>
> Power--it already has a  combined population and economy greater than the<BR>
> USA.  I also believe some sort of future  world government will be based on<BR>
> the EU model. <BR>
<BR>
Hm...I doubt that.  At least, not in the near future.  It would depend on the EU developing into a true sovereign government (rather than a coalition of sovereign powers) and that doesn't seem likely in the near future, since it doesn't seem to be what most europeans want.  Of course, a weak central government like that is certainly a possible model for a world government.  Then again, that's sort of what the UN is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:08:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
"Personally, this sounds to me like rank inflation, something like the<BR>
notion<BR>
common in the US that everyone needs a college degree, regardless of their<BR>
occupation. There are plenty of highly technical occupations that don't<BR>
require this.  IMHO, officer rank should be indicative of command.  The is<BR>
nothing shamefull about enlisted rank. The NCO is the backbone of most<BR>
services.  He should be respected as such.  All these extra officers leads<BR>
to something like Balaclava. Too many generals, not enough privates"<BR>
<BR>
I say: "Right on!"<BR>
<BR>
By the way, I know this is off topic, but why does ST have no enlisted<BR>
personnel? Is the computer supposed to take care of all the routine and<BR>
technical tasks aboard the ship? I have never liked this aspect of ST.<BR>
Another theory is that ST is set in some sort of utopian society where<BR>
everybody gets to go to college and be an officer (yikes) and that nobdy<BR>
really has to work unless they are inclined to do so(like the kind of people<BR>
who would apply for the Academy.)<BR>
<BR>
By the way, in my old TU, there was a much much lower ratio of officers to<BR>
enlisted.  We even ran a few games where the PCs were NCOs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:03:31 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2460<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn quoted and expanded thusly:<BR>
> > Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
> > heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
> <BR>
> The French are the chefs, the British the policemen and the Germans the<BR>
> mechanics.<BR>
<BR>
...the lovers are Italian, and the whole thing is organized by the Swiss.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In hell they're all driving French cars, eating English food and have German<BR>
> Police.<BR>
<BR>
...the lovers are Swiss, and the whole thing is organized by the Italians.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:10:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/19/00 10:01 AM, tiamat@tsoft.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> IIRC, the ST RPG by FASA mentions that the Constitution class<BR>
>> cruisers (such as the Enterprise of the original series) is crewed<BR>
>> entirely buy officers.  Other vessels have enlisted personel.  This<BR>
>> seams rather inefficient, but it does fit with the series.<BR>
>> <BR>
> I think it just means that "officer" has a rather different meaning to<BR>
> them than it has to most of us.<BR>
<BR>
The evolution of language...<BR>
<BR>
> and you also have to understand, that there is no one on a ship like that<BR>
> that doesn't have at least a college education.  There really doesn't seem<BR>
> to be any place in the ST universe for kids that drop out of high school<BR>
> or college and sign up with the military to get away from wherever they're<BR>
> at (something I surely would have done myself if my health had been<BR>
> better).<BR>
> <BR>
> Kiri<BR>
<BR>
Seems reasonable for any intersteller society, including the 3I. I would<BR>
think your lowliest grunt with a gun understands at least the basics of<BR>
Einstienian Physics, Quantum Theory, etc. The Imperium is immersed in a<BR>
background of high technology, even the low tech worlds are held together<BR>
with Jump Tech. Vehicle mechanics work on gravitics. Heck, even janitors<BR>
likely have some technical training, what kind of cleaning tools exist at CT<BR>
TL-F?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:15:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 09:47 AM,  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> asked:<BR>
<BR>
>>Recently I discovered a page which contained screenshots and<BR>
>>reproductions of all of the test cards (we call them test patterns<BR>
>>in America) ever run by BBC-1 and BBC-2.  The one which was<BR>
>>apparently used for the longest period of time was "Test Card F":<BR>
>>The color test pattern with the little girl playing noughts &<BR>
>>crosses (we call that tic-tac-toe in America) in the center.<BR>
>>Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the<BR>
>>television program ReBoot, which as far as I understand is<BR>
>>American.  How frequently did you folks in Britain see "Test Card<BR>
>>F" anyway?  If you wish to respond and not take up bandwidth, a<BR>
>>private response is alright.  I'm strangely curious about this.<BR>
<BR>
Reboot is Canadian. That could explain a BBC reference.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:16:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
Volker Griemann wrote:<BR>
>Hmm, all the while our history books tell us that it <BR>
>was the American Troops who suffered the heaviest <BR>
>losses in WWI, mostly due to the fact that <BR>
>they were mostly green units and had no idea on how to <BR>
>fight in trenches. <BR>
<BR>
Ypres, the Marne and the Somme provide little evidence<BR>
that anyone else did either.<BR>
<BR>
Americans suffered about 8% casualties over two years,<BR>
compared to Germany's 66%, Britain's 36% France's 74%,<BR>
and Russia's 76% over five years.*  That's pretty low,<BR>
comparatively speaking, and I've read German accounts<BR>
of the war that were impressed by the marksmanship<BR>
of American troops.  I think we had more soldiers who<BR>
learned to shoot at an early age at the time than most<BR>
European countries did.<BR>
<BR>
Sgt. Alvin C. York comes to mind...<BR>
<BR>
*These figures are from www.worldwar1.com, the<BR>
very interesting "Trenches on the Web" web site.<BR>
Rumania's casualty figures were very interesting.<BR>
They suffered about 71% casualties out of troops<BR>
mobilized.  Of these, more than twice as many<BR>
were killed as were wounded or missing. No other<BR>
military had anywhere near that kind of ratio of<BR>
killed to total casualties, and I don't know why.<BR>
Does anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:29:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm, all the while our history books tell us that it was the American<BR>
> Troops who suffered the heaviest losses in WWI, mostly due to the<BR>
> fact that<BR>
> they were mostly green units and had no idea on how to fight in trenches.<BR>
> Modern warfare was over their heads at that time as well.<BR>
<BR>
Modern Warfare?!  The reason there were so many casualties in WWI was that<BR>
in spite of modern weaponry, 19th century tactics were still being employed<BR>
(no one, not even the Americans, who should have known better, had learned<BR>
the lessons of the American civil war).  The massed bayonet charge was folly<BR>
even without the introduction of the machinegun. The German general von<BR>
Hutier was really the first to grasp the tactics of modern war, along with<BR>
Briton B. H. Liddelhart.<BR>
<BR>
> By WWII<BR>
> they had<BR>
> learned quite a bit, but in their first AO (Africa) they took severe<BR>
> beatings as well, at least in the first couple of battles.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly due to the draw down after WW1.  Very few experienced troops left to<BR>
inculcate the skill of modern war in the new generation.  America seems<BR>
particularly prone to this malady.  Perhaps because there isn't the military<BR>
tradition of many European states.  We just want to get it over with, and<BR>
get on with life.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:33:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, to me it always seemed like the Americans being slightly paranoid in<BR>
> this respect. I have never heard of any "European", German or<BR>
> French plans<BR>
> to invade America during the last 100 years, apart from US wargames,<BR>
> movies, etc.<BR>
> ---<BR>
> Volker A. Greimann<BR>
> greimann@geocities.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I meant attacking in the verbal sense.  No foreign power in it's right mind<BR>
would actually consider invading the US.  Apart from our military power,<BR>
there's all those yahoos with guns.<BR>
<BR>
Plus, who'd want the place? It really only fit for us wacky colonists.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:32:30 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 02:20 PM,  tim@premier.net said:<BR>
<BR>
>I have been keeping my mouth shut, because Doug does a good  job<BR>
>defending America with a sense of hunor as well.  But Doug is  right and<BR>
>if he was near by I would High Five him for this.  <BR>
<BR>
Dittos! (That's an American insider joke)<BR>
<BR>
However, can we just dump the Us vs Them arguments for a while?<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    who bets Doug gets a kick out of being Dittoed. <g><BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:32:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>Well, that depends.  The Germans were fighting on <BR>
>several fronts, and the Americans were providing <BR>
>significant material assistance to the Russians.  Also, <BR>
>casualties really aren't everything, the air campaign <BR>
>against German industry was certainly important.<BR>
<BR>
Logistics.  From what I have read, the USSR's ability<BR>
to supply their army was almost 100% reliant on<BR>
American-built trucks.  And one of the worst problems<BR>
the Germans faced during the war was the American<BR>
Army Air Force's hobby of blowing up trains, railheads,<BR>
convoys, and everything else that moved.  The Germans<BR>
might pull a unit out of combat and move it to <BR>
another front, only to have half the unit shredded<BR>
on the way.  <BR>
<BR>
I will never forget my grandfather's account of WW2.<BR>
He served at an airbase in Alaska, where American<BR>
pilots would land fighter planes and light bombers<BR>
fresh from American factories, and hand them over<BR>
to Russian pilots.  These Russian pilots would then <BR>
take off in these planes to ferry them to the Eastern <BR>
front, often taking them directly into combat.<BR>
<BR>
The pile of aircraft wrecked on take-off grew larger<BR>
every single day.  Many of these Russian pilots, so<BR>
it was said, had never been in a real airplane before<BR>
they boarded the transport that flew them to Alaska.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2461<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2462<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
Zhodani slapping was Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping was Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves (OT)<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
Re: Logistics. (was America vs Europe)<BR>
Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: America vs Europe<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
Re: Logistics. (was America vs Europe)<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: [OT] New gamer<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: The great leap forward.<BR>
RE: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:36:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 09:21 PM,  Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>What this has to do with traveller I don't know.  I am reminded of PJ<BR>
>>O'Rourke commentaries on the European fixation on attacking America.  I<BR>
>>wonder if Britain experienced the same thing when it was a world power?<BR>
<BR>
>Hmm, to me it always seemed like the Americans being slightly paranoid in<BR>
> this respect. I have never heard of any "European", German or French<BR>
>plans  to invade America during the last 100 years, apart from US<BR>
>wargames,  movies, etc.<BR>
<BR>
<sputter> Good one Volker!  You can score a choke, if not outright<BR>
keyboard kill. <g><BR>
<BR>
Hey, on a Traveller subject...is it generally accepted reasoning<BR>
that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I territories, just keep<BR>
them at bay, and so all the "Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to<BR>
halt the Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:45:47 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> The pile of aircraft wrecked on take-off grew larger<BR>
> every single day.  Many of these Russian pilots, so<BR>
> it was said, had never been in a real airplane before<BR>
> they boarded the transport that flew them to Alaska.<BR>
<BR>
One of the reasons, of course, for that was that we were selling them<BR>
P39 Airacobras. <BR>
<BR>
Wonderful aircraft, excellent in their role as ground support and<BR>
antiarmor fighter planes, but with a mid-engine design, and tricycle<BR>
landing gear, considerably different in handling characteristics than<BR>
the taildragger front engined trainers they'd flown before.<BR>
<BR>
That pile on takeoff was nothing compared to the pile on landing...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:44:06 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 05:16 PM,  "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>*These figures are from www.worldwar1.com, the<BR>
>very interesting "Trenches on the Web" web site.<BR>
>Rumania's casualty figures were very interesting.<BR>
>They suffered about 71% casualties out of troops<BR>
>mobilized.  Of these, more than twice as many<BR>
>were killed as were wounded or missing. No other<BR>
>military had anywhere near that kind of ratio of<BR>
>killed to total casualties, and I don't know why.<BR>
>Does anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
I'd guess lack of medical care. The state of the medical arts weren't *great* in the period, but even a little treatment and sanitary conditions goes a long way in keeping a WIA from turning into a KIA.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:52:06 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Zhodani slapping was Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey, on a Traveller subject...is it generally accepted reasoning<BR>
> that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I territories, just keep<BR>
> them at bay, and so all the "Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to<BR>
> halt the Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
<BR>
Well according to all Canon, yes it is. Rebellion Sourcebook, Survival<BR>
Margin (IIRC) and G:AR1 all mention this explicitly. According to AR1,<BR>
there's division within the ruling classes in the Consulate over that<BR>
strategy, but it's still official policy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping was Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Hey, on a Traveller subject...is it generally accepted reasoning<BR>
> > that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I territories, just keep<BR>
> > them at bay, and so all the "Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to<BR>
> > halt the Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well according to all Canon, yes it is. Rebellion Sourcebook, Survival<BR>
> Margin (IIRC) and G:AR1 all mention this explicitly. According to AR1,<BR>
> there's division within the ruling classes in the Consulate over that<BR>
> strategy, but it's still official policy.<BR>
<BR>
Note that various things could cause this policy to suddenly change, since the theoretical reason for the policy has to do with the size of area which can be feasibly governed by the zhodani government style.  A technological advancement which sped up communication (to make it properly Zhodani, go with interstellar telepathy between twins, say) could result in a suddenly expansionistic state.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:02:47 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Legate Legion overcame tremendous adversity to write:<BR>
> > From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> > >I blame the French, who saddled the US troops with such abortions as the<BR>
> > >Chauchaut Light machinegun.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
> > Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
><BR>
> Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
> heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
<BR>
No, German.... Or at worst Italian....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:02:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
> Wonderful aircraft, excellent in their role as ground support and<BR>
> antiarmor fighter planes, but with a mid-engine design, and tricycle<BR>
> landing gear, considerably different in handling characteristics than<BR>
> the taildragger front engined trainers they'd flown before.<BR>
><BR>
> That pile on takeoff was nothing compared to the pile on landing...<BR>
<BR>
During the good old days (the Cold War), in severe weather we would<BR>
routinely launch planes and fly at high speed towards the IGB, causing our<BR>
adversaries to launch aircraft in response. The good thing about *our*<BR>
technology was that it routinely let you land in one piece in the severe<BR>
weather, while our adversaries...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:07:29 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
...<BR>
>    Not really, you might want to read your history of WWI, again.  In 1915,<BR>
>both the Allied & Central Powers had been bleed dry by Trench Warfare.  With<BR>
>the entry of the US into the war, the Allies got an infusion of "new blood"<BR>
>as it were, & were able to keep fighting.<BR>
<BR>
  I'm going to assume that "1915" is a typo. The rest isn't terribly<BR>
accurate either, but let's not be too demanding, eh?<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
> As for Reverse Lend-Lease, well, how can I put this to you? It never happened.<BR>
<BR>
  <giggle> It may have been put to you incorrectly, but the US wasn't able<BR>
to play the high-tech warfare game on strictly its own merits - nor did<BR>
the US pay for the technology given to it. In fact, IIRC, they reneged on<BR>
some fairly important agreements about technology transfers :|<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:17:02 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves (OT)<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
> <BR>
> >>  Please, the land of Oz is just as decandant as we are, we just<BR>
> >>  have the<BR>
> >> good sense to know it.  At least we do not hound out our<BR>
> >> politicians<BR>
> because<BR>
> >> they have sex with women.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >A brief rebuttal on both your points :-<BR>
> >- Kenneth Starr's witch hunt following 'Monicagate', Gary Hart, etc.<BR>
> >ad nauseam.<BR>
> <BR>
>   It was not a witch hunt following Monicagate, but it was based<BR>
>  upon Whitewater & the fact the Hillary made $100,000 in one hour on the<BR>
> stock market.  That, plus he lied to the American People.  Americans<BR>
> can take a lot of things, but not telling us the truth is not one of<BR>
> them, nor is official corruption.  Bill Clinton made alot of money on<BR>
> a failed land deal, therefore Kenneth Starr's investigation.  Of<BR>
> course one funny thing, when Watergate was happening, no one called<BR>
> the investigation of it a witch-hunt.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps that was because evidence of wrong-doing was found in <BR>
the course of the Watergate investigations.  Starr only latched onto <BR>
the whole "Monicagate" nonsense because his 5+ years multi-<BR>
million dollar investigation into Whitewater turned up *no* evidence <BR>
of any crimes being committed by either of the Clintons  It was all <BR>
a lot of talk, and a great deal of wasted time and money.  <BR>
<BR>
As for the American people "Not being able to take certain things"  <BR>
Sure, Clinton lied about having an affair, and by and large the <BR>
American public didn't give a damn.  The press did, a few right-wing <BR>
nut-cases did, but Clinton's popularity was not affected by the <BR>
whole mess.  I think Clinton is a wretched tool of corporate <BR>
interests, but the whole Whitewater investigation was quite <BR>
honestly a farce.  With all the time and money spent on it, if they <BR>
had committed any crimes I'm certain Starr would have uncovered <BR>
them.  He didn't and merely went for cheap personal attacks <BR>
instead.  Saying that investigating Clinton for having an affair is in <BR>
any way related to Whitewater is ridiculous.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John  Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:19:09 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 02:56 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
>> eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Hey, on a Traveller subject...is it generally accepted reasoning<BR>
>> > that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I territories, just keep<BR>
>> > them at bay, and so all the "Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to<BR>
>> > halt the Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Well according to all Canon, yes it is. Rebellion Sourcebook, Survival<BR>
>> Margin (IIRC) and G:AR1 all mention this explicitly. According to AR1,<BR>
>> there's division within the ruling classes in the Consulate over that<BR>
>> strategy, but it's still official policy.<BR>
<BR>
>Note that various things could cause this policy to suddenly change,<BR>
>since the theoretical reason for the policy has to do with the size of<BR>
>area which can be feasibly governed by the zhodani government style.  A<BR>
>technological advancement which sped up communication (to make it<BR>
>properly Zhodani, go with interstellar telepathy between twins, say)<BR>
>could result in a suddenly expansionistic state.<BR>
<BR>
Good point!<BR>
<BR>
So could pressure on the Zhodani from another direction, the core let's say, could make them want to move rimward. That's one reason the germanic tribes moved west in waves. Of course, with a settled culture the reaction to the motivation might be different.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:23:02 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Logistics. (was America vs Europe)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
...<BR>
>Logistics.  From what I have read, the USSR's ability<BR>
>to supply their army was almost 100% reliant on<BR>
>American-built trucks.  And one of the worst problems<BR>
<BR>
  Probably a lot more like 20%, but a crucial portion as far as<BR>
pursuing the Germans out of Russia was concerned - without that<BR>
aid they likely wouldn't (couldn't?) have done so. Of course,<BR>
the Western Allies were desperate to have the Russians do so, as<BR>
otherwise they had real doubts about their ability to conquer<BR>
Germany at all, let alone within acceptable costs.<BR>
<BR>
>the Germans faced during the war was the American<BR>
>Army Air Force's hobby of blowing up trains, railheads,<BR>
>convoys, and everything else that moved.  The Germans<BR>
>might pull a unit out of combat and move it to <BR>
>another front, only to have half the unit shredded<BR>
>on the way.  <BR>
<BR>
  This really only became the case after the war had already been lost;<BR>
only a separate peace with the West would allow the Germans to stop the<BR>
Russians from reaching Berlin by that point.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav - time-lags and transport times make the grand coalitions between<BR>
races so beloved of the SFB crowd pretty unlikely in OTU (AFAIC). So there's<BR>
a lot to be said for simply looking at everything as a large set of bilateral<BR>
relations.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:27:33 CEST<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
>were a world power at one time?<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but 90+% of the "Swedish" porn is <BR>
Californian in origin.<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:31:25 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
...<BR>
>would have been far more instrumental if it had been launched in 1943<BR>
rather then 1944. <BR>
<BR>
  Well, yes, but it might also have failed far more readily than in `44.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: "once Terra is reduced, we'll continue our advance into the Sphere.<BR>
Projected time to completeion is only 4-6 weeks!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:44:16 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Note that various things could cause this policy to suddenly change,<BR>
> >since the theoretical reason for the policy has to do with the size of<BR>
> >area which can be feasibly governed by the zhodani government style.  A<BR>
> >technological advancement which sped up communication (to make it<BR>
> >properly Zhodani, go with interstellar telepathy between twins, say)<BR>
> >could result in a suddenly expansionistic state.<BR>
><BR>
> Good point!<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of an aborted 'illuminated' campaign I was going<BR>
to start for my brother and some friends.  The players were going<BR>
to become enmeshed in a web of conspiracies.  At the initial layer,<BR>
your standard 'shadow government' setting up its own invisible<BR>
and independent operations, including a few worlds that no one<BR>
else knows about.  The next layer, Zhodani spies have infiltrated<BR>
at a high level. Next, the Illuminati guard and/or search for the<BR>
ancient secrets/holy grail/etc..  The deep secret was that certain<BR>
elements in the 3I were harvesting psionics because they had<BR>
good reason to believe that the brain of a psionic, when properly<BR>
separated from the body, infused with an assortment of psi-drugs,<BR>
and plugged into some ancient-inspired technology, FTL<BR>
communications would result.<BR>
<BR>
A climactic scene would have had the heroes coming into a room<BR>
that has shelves from floor to ceiling on every wall with the<BR>
encased heads of psionics _still alive_, plugged into machinery,<BR>
potentially including some NPCs very close to the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
Mwahahahahaha.<BR>
<BR>
(ok, I stole the image from the old comic, Nexus).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:42:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Logistics. (was America vs Europe)<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav - time-lags and transport times make the grand coalitions between<BR>
> races so beloved of the SFB crowd pretty unlikely in OTU (AFAIC). So<BR>
> there's a lot to be said for simply looking at everything as a large set<BR>
> of bilateral relations.<BR>
<BR>
Nah.  There's all sorts of areas where three powers meet, and near Deneb you can easily have four powers.  Beyond that an organized alliance is unlikely, but given the time lag in the OTU it is reasonable to consider a war which lasts for decades, in which case you can have a sort of spontaneous coalition (as in attacks on several fronts).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:29:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 0:10 -0400 19/5/00, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
>>The crusades are problematic, but that's exactly why a crusades movie would<BR>
>>likely be fantastic. Plenty of room for drama as well as guys on horses. :)<BR>
><BR>
> It'd be nice to see one from the point of the defenders of Constantinople.<BR>
<BR>
Defending against Crusaders or defending against the "hordes of Islam"?<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:55:19 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 5/19/00 4:58:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
vahid@prodigy.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, I know this is off topic, but why does ST have no enlisted<BR>
>  personnel? Is the computer supposed to take care of all the routine and<BR>
>  technical tasks aboard the ship? I have never liked this aspect of ST.<BR>
>  Another theory is that ST is set in some sort of utopian society where<BR>
>  everybody gets to go to college and be an officer (yikes) and that nobdy<BR>
>  really has to work unless they are inclined to do so(like the kind of <BR>
people<BR>
>  who would apply for the Academy.)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, ST does have enlisted personnel.  It's just that these are<BR>
almost never given any play on camera.  If you look (especially in the<BR>
Original Series) you see occasional "crewmen" as extras.<BR>
<BR>
It's not Starfleet that's egalitarian, it's the series writers who are<BR>
elitists :-).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:02:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 9:36, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> << Gosh, its a wonder you can walk so well with your foot so high :*> >><BR>
> <BR>
>     Uuummm, one thing here, I do not want to start a US vs. Europe thread<BR>
> here, as it only creates flames.<BR>
<BR>
Most US citizens I have ever met have been honest, pleasant and <BR>
repectful. They love their country, but they know when patriotism turns into <BR>
jingoism. I suggest you may wish to learn the difference.<BR>
<BR>
> << 1. The "meaningful' US contribution to the 1st WW was confined to<BR>
> 1915-16, and the US entry into the war actually considerably worsened the<BR>
> Allies position. The war was won by the RN while the various armies managed<BR>
> not to lose it. >><BR>
<BR>
>     Not really, you might want to read your history of WWI, again.  In 1915,<BR>
> both the Allied & Central Powers had been bleed dry by Trench Warfare.  With<BR>
> the entry of the US into the war, the Allies got an infusion of "new blood" as<BR>
> it were, & were able to keep fighting.<BR>
<BR>
The war on the land was irrelevant. The war was won by the RN "sitting on <BR>
the Germans Chest" until they collapsed. The war could be lost on the <BR>
land, but it was won on the sea. Likewise, the German's failed to win the <BR>
war because their U-boats failed to sit on the British chest well enough.<BR>
<BR>
>     I will admit that the USEF did need Arty from the French & the Brits, but<BR>
> we did pay for it, cash on the barrelhead.<BR>
<BR>
The AEF fought one battle (Meuse/Argonne). They fought it extremely well, <BR>
but it was only one battle. The significant US contribution was the provision <BR>
of machine tools (paid for in cash BTW) to modernise the British and <BR>
French war industries in 1915-16. The entry of the US actually allowed <BR>
German U-boats to operate in US coastal waters and slaughter merchant <BR>
shipping. The dangerous German offensives of early 1918 were contained <BR>
without US troops, by the time the US troops got into serious fighting, the <BR>
Germans had lost the war.<BR>
<BR>
> << 2. The US contribution to the 2nd WW was much more significant, but by the<BR>
> time it became important (circa mid 1941), the British position had firmed to<BR>
> the point where defeat (quite different from victory) was highly unlikely. >><BR>
<BR>
>     In mid-1941, England was about 2 weeks from peace talks with Germany. You<BR>
> might want to read Churchil's<sp> own thoughts about how close England was to<BR>
> making a peace with Germany.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, he was referring to the fact the Britian was down to 2 weeks food <BR>
reserves. In all likelyhood, Britian could have kept going for a considerable <BR>
time after that (evidence Germany in the 1stWW). However, the Churchill's <BR>
analysis was faulty. By this stage the tide in the Atlantic was already <BR>
turning, it just wasn't apparent then.<BR>
<BR>
> << 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities of<BR>
> British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too). >><BR>
<BR>
>     If you will break down the word, Lend-Lease into its two parts.  Lend &<BR>
> Lease, of course with you being from New Zealand, I will make it simple for<BR>
> you.<BR>
>     Lend:  To loan.<BR>
>     Lease:  To rent.<BR>
>     You with me, so far?  Good.<BR>
>     In 1939/1940 when FDR signed the Lend-Lease Act, basicly what happened was<BR>
> that we would lend England, the Free French, the Russians, the Free Polish,<BR>
> etc, etc, etc about 50% of what they needed to fight the Germans, & we would<BR>
> lease the other 50% to them.<BR>
<BR>
Do you actually ever read history books ????!!!! Lend-Lease referred to the <BR>
power given to the US President to Lend or lease US equipment as he saw <BR>
fit. I'll explain it using FDRs words to explain it to the US people "When my <BR>
neighbour's house is burning I do not say "This hose cost me $50", I say <BR>
"Here, use my hose, bring it back when you are finished"". I repeat again, <BR>
there was no charge associated with Lend-Lease (that was the whole point <BR>
to it).<BR>
<BR>
>     Now, France, Russia, Poland, etc, etc, etc, has paid back the money they<BR>
> owe us for the leasing of American materials used to fight the Germans, that<BR>
> of course leaves England to repay their part of the debt, which they have in<BR>
> part.  Of course until the debt is paid in full, it is not paid.<BR>
>     As for Reverse Lend-Lease, well, how can I put this to you?  It never<BR>
> happened.<BR>
<BR>
Good grief, you don't read your history books do you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:35:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: sorta Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> But in general, yes, there are lots of great stories in history we<BR>
> [Americans] (or at least I) sadly don't learn about that would make<BR>
> great movies.<BR>
><BR>
> What about good sci-fi novels or short stories?  <BR>
<BR>
Well, I still think that Dickson's short story "Brothers" would make a<BR>
neat short feature, but it's unlikely to happen. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:14:24 -0400<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] New gamer<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> Following an unexpectedly problematic labour (including the classic 4am<BR>
> dash across the city to the hospital with the mother on all fours on the<BR>
> back seat of the car), our daughter May ?? Norwood [1] was delivered by<BR>
> emergency caesarian section at 10:15am Monday. She weighed in at 6lb<BR>
> 13oz [2]. After a fairly rocky start, the baby is doing well (she has<BR>
> just been released from the Special Care unit); her mother Alison is<BR>
> recovering fast.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
- -snip-<BR>
<BR>
> John<BR>
<BR>
Congrats!<BR>
<BR>
My second child was born at 09:55Z on Monday!  Daniel James Freitas is 8lb 3oz.<BR>
He was a water birth.  In fact he was the fourth water birth at our hospital. <BR>
In case their are any women out there who may have a child at some point, the<BR>
water birth relieves most of the pain during contractions.  My wife swears by<BR>
it.  She wouldn't do it any other way if we were to have another child.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:34:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Chris Seamans [mailto:semo@pil.net]<BR>
<BR>
> Earlier today, I saw a reference to "Test Card F" on the <BR>
> television program<BR>
> ReBoot, which as far as I understand is American. How <BR>
<BR>
I *love* ReBoot, but I am ashamed to say - it's Canadian. (How come all the great TV actors come from Canada - Lorne Green, MJ Fox, Pamela Anderson Lee... never mind.)<BR>
<BR>
www.mainframe.ca<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:39:33 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
>>post, not a rank.<BR>
> <BR>
>In his first few seasons, he was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, later<BR>
>becoming some sort of Warrant officer on DS9.<BR>
<BR>
I remember browsing through an ST:TNG episode guide of my sister's. The sort<BR>
that contains loads of trivia about each episode. In connection with one<BR>
episode, the guide mentions that O'Brian's _title_ was 'Transporter Chief',<BR>
but that he is a lieutenant, not a CPO, and it points out that he does,<BR>
indeed, wear lieutenant's pips on his collar. I haven't checked for myself.<BR>
Maybe the guide is wrong. Maybe they changed it for DS9. But as I said,<BR>
check his collar if you don't believe me.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,<BR>
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."<BR>
                        Commander Ted Walker<BR>
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:53:40 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
Volker Griemann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Hmm, all the while our history books tell us that it<BR>
>>was the American Troops who suffered the heaviest<BR>
>>losses in WWI, mostly due to the fact that<BR>
>>they were mostly green units and had no idea on how to<BR>
>>fight in trenches.<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ypres, the Marne and the Somme provide little evidence<BR>
>that anyone else did either.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Walt, Volker's right (as much as I hate to agree with him, keep<BR>
reading for my comment on his post). The AEF was really "green" with respect<BR>
to fighting in the trenches. This has been commented on at great length and<BR>
is probably the closest thing to an "undisputed fact" in the study of the<BR>
history of the Great War. People did comment on it at the time, as well: the<BR>
Brits and the Germans both. Even the Americans knew that there was something<BR>
wrong. However, I don't see how such a thing could have been avoided. The<BR>
Germans were quite experienced in Trench warfare. The British made some<BR>
major mistakes, but for the most part knew what they were doing. The French<BR>
were burdened by poor equipment which made their largely defensive position<BR>
precarious, but they did admirably, despite their reputation. The Russians,<BR>
of course, had problems at home which required more attention than the Great<BR>
War.<BR>
<BR>
The truth is that the American command didn't know what they were doing, and<BR>
the American troops had little or no prior experience. In addition, American<BR>
doctrine at the time heavily favored the rifle... and contrary to popular<BR>
belief not all Americans are born crack shots (see my note below for Sgt.<BR>
York's take on this). What's perhaps more important is that the U.S. didn't<BR>
favor the use of machine guns (not surprising given the fact that they were<BR>
using tempermental Chauchaut MGs acquired from France), and this hurt the<BR>
American effort severely.<BR>
<BR>
[Incidentally, there's a fairly good "meat & potatoes" version of this which<BR>
you can reach by way of "Trenches on the Web". Go to the "Great War Society"<BR>
from the first page and then go to their "Doughboy" section. Its all about<BR>
the AEF. Lots of good, solid info on various aspects of the involvement of<BR>
the U.S.]<BR>
<BR>
However, the American forces did two things for the Allies: they put fresh<BR>
new troops on the lines, and these new troops were marked by an eagerness<BR>
which I honestly don't think that anybody ever will be able to understand or<BR>
explain. The Americans actually *wanted* to go on the offensive and were<BR>
willing to do it. The effect of this on the morale of the Allies is, in my<BR>
opinion, frequently underestimated.<BR>
<BR>
>Americans suffered about 8% casualties over two years,<BR>
>compared to Germany's 66%, Britain's 36% France's 74%,<BR>
>and Russia's 76% over five years.*  That's pretty low,<BR>
>comparatively speaking, and I've read German accounts<BR>
>of the war that were impressed by the marksmanship<BR>
>of American troops.  I think we had more soldiers who<BR>
>learned to shoot at an early age at the time than most<BR>
>European countries did.<BR>
<BR>
Before I go on, I'd like to say that despite the fact I believe Volker's<BR>
history books to be incorrect, I didn't respond to his post because, quite<BR>
frankly it appeared to be idiotic drivel. If Volker is offended by this<BR>
statement, I really don't care, nor do I apologize. If he wants to play the<BR>
game of "my country killed a higher percentage of your fathers /<BR>
grandfathers / uncles / cousins / brothers than your country did mine",<BR>
that's up to him. It doesn't mean I have to take part, nor will I. Such<BR>
callousness is, quite literally, stomach turning to me. We're talking about<BR>
one of the most tragic wastes of human life in human history.<BR>
<BR>
If the best thing you can come up with as a comment on the Great War<BR>
consists of squabbling over who shed more blood, then that's really petty<BR>
and sad.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said:<BR>
<BR>
While I love the "Trenches on the Web" site, here's a caveat from someone<BR>
who is a student of the Great War: using almanac numbers to compare casualty<BR>
numbers is extremely dangerous. If I recall correctly, "Trenches" gives the<BR>
total number of American forces mobilized, somewhere over 4,000,000.<BR>
However, by the time of the Armistice only about half of these troops made<BR>
it to Europe. Of these, several hundred thousand never even found themselves<BR>
in a position where they could become casualties. I don't know the number<BR>
right off the top of my head, so I can't help out at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
From what I remember, America did have a higher casualty rate than the major<BR>
players in the war, at least in a general sense. Had the war gone on long<BR>
enough for America to get a deeper understanding of trench warfare, or to<BR>
introduce the Thompson SMG and to put the Browning Automatic Rifle into wide<BR>
use, things might have changed. I don't know. Thankfully, it never got to<BR>
that point.<BR>
<BR>
>Sgt. Alvin C. York comes to mind...<BR>
<BR>
Sgt. York was possibly the most extraordinary individual in American<BR>
military history, if not military history in general. His experience was a<BR>
real exception to the rule, and was certainly anything but normal. He does<BR>
come to mind to illustrate my point however: in his memoirs, he's quite<BR>
blunt about the lack of shooting skill his comrades demonstrated.<BR>
<BR>
>*These figures are from www.worldwar1.com, the<BR>
>very interesting "Trenches on the Web" web site.<BR>
>Rumania's casualty figures were very interesting.<BR>
>They suffered about 71% casualties out of troops<BR>
>mobilized.  Of these, more than twice as many<BR>
>were killed as were wounded or missing. No other<BR>
>military had anywhere near that kind of ratio of<BR>
>killed to total casualties, and I don't know why.<BR>
>Does anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
Throughout the war, the Allies tried to woo Romania over, since the country<BR>
was one of the most productive countries in Eastern Europe, and it was<BR>
unaligned. Romania remained neutral and allowed Austrian and German troops<BR>
to pass through into Bulgaria and Turkey. Romania was emboldened by a string<BR>
of Russian victories in 1916. She entered the war on the side of the Allies<BR>
in the late summer. The Romanian forces actually did rather well, since<BR>
Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire were tied up fighting everybody<BR>
else. As a result of Romania's entry into the war, Germany and Austria could<BR>
no longer send supplies and troops to Bulgaria and Turkey. They put a halt<BR>
on all of their other campaigns and focused everything available on removing<BR>
the Romanian threat. Romania found herself in serious trouble, with the<BR>
combined forces of the Central Powers all aligned against her.<BR>
<BR>
There were several attempts by the Allies to help the little country in one<BR>
way or another. While I hesitate to say that these attempts were fruitless<BR>
(I think in the larger scheme of things, all of these efforts did help to<BR>
bring down the Central Powers), Romania was hammered again and again until<BR>
she could no longer fight. She surrendered in May of 1918, after nearly two<BR>
years of brutal fighting.<BR>
<BR>
I think that that's pretty much the story behind Romania's rather odd<BR>
casualty figures. I hope this helps to answer your question.<BR>
<BR>
I guess responses should be directed to semo@pil.net. I have no interest in<BR>
ObTraving this thread, and it's clearly off-topic. Sorry for the use of<BR>
bandwidth, folks.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2462<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 19 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2463<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
RE: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: The great leap forward<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:00:21 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> I *love* ReBoot, but I am ashamed to say - it's Canadian. (How come all the<BR>
great TV actors come from Canada - Lorne Green, MJ Fox, Pamela Anderson Lee...<BR>
never mind.)<BR>
<BR>
What? You list Canadian actors and never mention the Olivier of our time...<BR>
William Shatner! Shame on you! (O.K., maybe not... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:02:08 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
"Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sir James Bond, British secret agent extroidinaire (sp), has saved the<BR>
world countless times<BR>
>(although not from aliens).  The series is an American production, but it<BR>
features a British<BR>
>super hero.  It is an example of the homage that Americans place on all<BR>
things British.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the British comic Eddie Izzard has pointed out<BR>
(correctly, IMHO) that the villains in American movies always have English<BR>
accents, because the US won the Revolutionary War. And the French, who came<BR>
to the aid of the Americans, are always portrayed as swinging Latin lovers<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>World War II:  The Soviet Union basically won this war (not Britain or the<BR>
USA).  The USSR<BR>
>practically single-handedly defeated the Germans on the eastern front.<BR>
<BR>
Other posters have noted the contribution of the American and British<BR>
bombing towards German defeat, and the material assistance provided by the<BR>
US to the Soviets. Having recently done a biography of Goering, I'd like to<BR>
point out that the vaunted German war machine never acheived numerical<BR>
superiority on either the Western or Eastern fronts (in 1940, according to<BR>
"Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," I think the Germans had about 10<BR>
divisions opposing about 160; the Soviet army had something like 300<BR>
divisions in 1941, compared to about 150 in the German army) and that German<BR>
industry was much less effecient at mass production than the US, Britain<BR>
(probably) and the Soviets--far too much piece work was being done, where<BR>
craftsmen would build an entire airplane all at once, rather than assembly<BR>
line work. There was also massive corruption, a result of the Nazi<BR>
commisariat that oversaw all production. German airpower never recovered<BR>
from the battle of Britain, which was a major factor in their failures<BR>
against both the Soviets and the Anglo-American bombings.<BR>
<BR>
So I don't think any side won the war solely by their efforts. You can<BR>
certainly make a case, however, that the Soviets were the clear *winner* of<BR>
the war, as they acquired hegemony in Europe and cemented their status as<BR>
one of the two superpowers. Curiously, they may have been the biggest loser<BR>
as well--lost something like 10% of their entire *civilian* population.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:09:14 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A climactic scene would have had the heroes coming into a room<BR>
> that has shelves from floor to ceiling on every wall with the<BR>
> encased heads of psionics _still alive_, plugged into machinery,<BR>
> potentially including some NPCs very close to the PCs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mwahahahahaha.<BR>
> <BR>
> (ok, I stole the image from the old comic, Nexus).<BR>
<BR>
sure it wasn't 'Futurama'? ;-) <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:34:32 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
> I have been keeping my mouth shut, because Doug does a good<BR>
> job defending America with a sense of hunor as well.<BR>
<BR>
Don't worry, I only "attack" Amercians because they're so easy to wind up,<BR>
and it's fun watching then go spiraling off into the distance.<BR>
<BR>
> But Doug is right and if he was near by I would High Five him for this.<BR>
<BR>
And if you're not careful I'll S Club Seven you !<BR>
<BR>
> Both of  my fathers served in the U.S. military and risked their life so<BR>
we<BR>
> that is Americans could watch our stupid films.<BR>
<BR>
Sort of makes it all worth while, don't it ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:37:19 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can see it's time to unsubscribe from the TML for a few weeks<BR>
again.<BR>
<BR>
When you folks become interested in talking about Traveller again,<BR>
and can treat one another with a minimum of respect, someone let<BR>
me know.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:50:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 20:37, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, I can see it's time to unsubscribe from the TML for a few weeks<BR>
> again.<BR>
<BR>
> When you folks become interested in talking about Traveller again,<BR>
> and can treat one another with a minimum of respect, someone let<BR>
> me know.<BR>
<BR>
My apologies, while I stand by what I said, this was not the place to say it. <BR>
Anyway, I have to get back to scribbling.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:21:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, bear in mind that the energy is mostly in the form of soft <BR>
> X-rays, which can be stopped with minimal shielding.  The gamma radiation <BR>
> kill radius (for which real shielding is required) around 1/5 of these <BR>
> numbers.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks! I'll add that to my notes. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, this sort of stuff *begs* to be cleaned up, merged with info on<BR>
solar flares, vetted by someone in the field(s) involved, and published<BR>
as something along the lines of "Radiation hazards in Traveller".<BR>
<BR>
What I *really* need is a graph of table giving percentages of blast<BR>
energy at various wavelengths. And it'd be nice if we could create a<BR>
table for rolling flare frequency & intensity for various star types. <BR>
<BR>
There are lots of references out there on the "shielding factors" of<BR>
various materials, all we'd need to do is add the new materials in<BR>
Traveller (crystal iron, superdense, etc).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:27:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2445<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> 1 MT    500     1000<BR>
>> 10 MT   1500    3500<BR>
>> 100 MT  5000    10,000<BR>
>> 1 GT    15,000  35,000<BR>
>> 10 GT   50,000  100,000<BR>
>> 100 GT  150,000 350,000<BR>
><BR>
> Gad I've gotta get these acronyms outta my head...<BR>
><BR>
> I saw that list and went "Jeez Gurps is a major munchkin machine...look<BR>
> how much more powerful GT version bombs are over MegaT..."<BR>
><BR>
> ;-)<BR>
<BR>
As penance for that, you are hereby appointed to create the stellar<BR>
flare intensity and frequency versus stellar type tables mentioned in<BR>
another post. :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I think that even with a superdense hull nobody would survive a<BR>
flare like the one in Niven's "Inconstant Moon". <eg><BR>
<BR>
Pull that one on players who were out refeuling at a GG. Maybe they'd<BR>
survive, maybe not. Picture them making a run for the shadow of a moon<BR>
or the GG while trying to stay *out* of any radiation belts, and<BR>
watching the dosage figures from the sensors keep creeping upward.<BR>
<BR>
*If* they survive, they'll have to jump to another system for<BR>
treatment, since the medical facilities in-system will be overloaded.<BR>
And they'll likely be the first ones to summon aid anyway.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:17:22 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> sure it wasn't 'Futurama'? ;-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Absolutely.  It was Nexus, about 15 years ago.<BR>
Telepathic heads-in-jars with little grav units<BR>
so they can buzz around.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:13:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:42 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> > Jens, the movie was released on July 4th weekend, and was nothing but a<BR>
> > flag-waving excuse.  It was never intended to be anything more than a<BR>
camp<BR>
> > SF movie.<BR>
><BR>
> Hehe... I know, but I kind of detest that excuse for a movie. But you've<BR>
> all guessed that by now I think  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Lets just say that the movie appeared here during early Autumn, without<BR>
> any visible connection to your indepence day (the holiday, not the<BR>
> movie).<BR>
><BR>
> > We have a saying: "Was this the only problem you had with the movie?"<BR>
This<BR>
> > thing was so full of holes you had to look hard to see the plot!  But it<BR>
> > was fun, it got you into an air-conditioned theater for a few hours, and<BR>
> > things blew up on a fairly regular schedule.<BR>
><BR>
> As I said, some nifty special effects but a lousy plot. If you manage to<BR>
> find the off-switch for your brain, it's not that bad really.<BR>
><BR>
> > Because all the characters were American?  Jens, you are really reading<BR>
to<BR>
> > much into this movie, which was never intended as a serious film.<BR>
><BR>
> OK... sorry...<BR>
><BR>
> > We are.  Sorry about that, but we are the biggest kids on the block at<BR>
the<BR>
> > moment.<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, but do you need to brag about it?   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I've stayed out of most of these debates since joining the TML, but after 50<BR>
or 60 repeats of it I have the chime FOR ONE TIME ONLY, flames, praise,<BR>
disagreements, and agreement s will all be treated the same.<BR>
<BR>
Jens I've been through a number of decades in this country. I've seen the US<BR>
(As opposed to AMERICA a continent made up of two land masses and a whole<BR>
passel of countries) go from the boom time of the 50's, and the (IMO,<BR>
justifiable) pride of having been a large factor in the defeat of 2 "evil<BR>
empires" to the 60' - early 70's when most younger people hated this country<BR>
and openly showed it. Again to the 90's where the pride returned and my own<BR>
kids proudly volunteered to wear a uniform that a decade or 2 early was one<BR>
of the most hated. Personally I'm pleased that the pride has returned to the<BR>
point where people brag about this country! It sure bets going to a foreign<BR>
country ha is the enemy in a shooting war and hold news conferences to bad<BR>
mouth the country they were born in and returned too.<BR>
<BR>
This is not to say that you or anyone else for that matter can't or<BR>
shouldn't be proud of the county of their birth (and most here on the TML,<BR>
at least, seem to be!). Should you, or anyone else "brag" about the<BR>
achievements of their nation or any other aspect of you culture, I say "Have<BR>
at it!" and will defend your right to do so. I will also listen if you<BR>
reasonably want to discuss the faults in my nation (an it has them, as does<BR>
anything created by the hand of man!). However, please refrain from<BR>
gratuitous insults, despite how provoked you might feel, really, in the long<BR>
run they mean nothing. It will not change my feelings, nor anyone else's,<BR>
and only serve to cause disruption and strife on this news group. In other<BR>
words, and this is good advice to all of us!, ignore an delete this type of<BR>
email, since every response NOT made, shortens the length of the "flame war"<BR>
by one.<BR>
<BR>
I am not sorry about my feelings. I am sorry if this prolongs the flame<BR>
fest... Chalk it up to sleep depravation, a Lear jet flight after 20 minutes<BR>
notice at 8 pm last night, a six hour drive because the air port was fogged<BR>
in any we had to divert, the a marathon session to complete and inspect a<BR>
set of seals that typically take a ever to do, in 24 hrs, followed by<BR>
another Lear jet back, on 1.5 hours of sleep can cause one to give in to a<BR>
weak moment.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for listening to my first and last words on this subject,<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:39:21 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
To all of you folks who responded to this particular question (about test<BR>
card F), I really appreciate it. There's something strangely fascinating<BR>
about a culture with that much consistency.<BR>
<BR>
Also, thanks to Matt Stevens who pointed out that ReBoot is actually<BR>
Canadian. Since test card F apparently also saw use there, that would<BR>
explain it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:43:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Whoops. That last bit should of my last post should read:<BR>
<BR>
"Also, thanks to Danny Moody who pointed out that ReBoot is actually<BR>
Canadian. Since test card F apparently also saw use there, that would<BR>
explain it." Sorry for the mistake, Danny and Matt.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:03:14 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
>Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
>writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
>"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
>set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
Taken literally, this means no one should make any statements about <BR>
anything.  No 'offense' meant, but please.<BR>
<BR>
OT, uninteresting threads are what the F1 (delete, in Eudora) is for. <BR>
There are plenty of ON topic threads that I don't find useful or <BR>
interesting, so ... F1!<BR>
<BR>
Personally, the military discussions I find interesting, and not <BR>
entirely off topic, as one can easilty apply historical and military <BR>
issues like these to the Traveller universe.  You KNOW there's still <BR>
going to be the Navy vs. Marines stuff going on, even when the Navy <BR>
has ships the size of small planets, and the Marines come in a <BR>
variety of species (at least to begin with).  History, and the <BR>
current OT thread brings up other thoughts for potential Traveller <BR>
fodder - there are bound to be instances where certain planets feel <BR>
they were asked/required to give/sacrifice much more than others in <BR>
the wars with the enemies of the Imperium, and perhaps that they <BR>
received too little recognition in return.  This could start bar <BR>
fights, gun fights, vendettas, plots against Imperial nobility... <BR>
Oh, jeeze, I hope our evil GM isn't reading this.  What was I <BR>
thinking!<BR>
<BR>
I like the comparison between the French and the Zhodani.  A line <BR>
from Babylon 5 comes to mind: "Who knew they'd be French?"  What's <BR>
the service like in a restaurant where the waiters are <non-psionic> <BR>
Zhodani?<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:24:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     ObTrav, do you think the Zhodani are a bit like the French in the<BR>
fact<BR>
>> that their women are hairy, they don't know how to drink beer, & their<BR>
>> arrogance?<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>I'm still laughing over this one.  It puts a unique spin on the Zhos.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well from canon we know that the average Zhodani Noble is arrogant, so<BR>
lets expand upon this a bit & add in other things.  Like hairy women (could<BR>
this be why the Zhodani have less births?) & the fact that they do not know<BR>
how to drink beer (come-on, they live in a society that is a police state,<BR>
they go for the hard stuff, not beer.).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:30:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [OT] Military (was: Save yourselves.)<BR>
<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
<BR>
>>     Well, right now, I do not have anything good to say about Germans, of<BR>
>>course this might be due to the fact that a German Telemarketing Company<BR>
>>called me at 3 am & tried to sell me timeshares near the Black Forest.<BR>
><BR>
>Ouch! We have those, too? Seems that they only operate abroad, since i have<BR>
>never received any calls of this sort, nor has anyone i know.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yeppers.  Well, they must.<BR>
<BR>
>Are you sure they were calling from Germany?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    If Bonn, Germany is in Germany, I would say they were calling from<BR>
Germany.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:31:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com <Kagehira@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
>>  Not entirely true.<BR>
>>  Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
>>  <grin><BR>
><BR>
>That's because sheep don't pay to watch movies, only couch potatoes do<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    New Zealand, where men are men, women are bored, & the sheep are scared<BR>
silly.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:41:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>     Major population centers, & capitals.  Remember Dallas-Ft. Worth was<BR>
>> also hit, but not Phoenix.  Could that be why I live here?  A major city<BR>
who<BR>
>> is 100% safe from Alien Attack & Nuclear War.<BR>
><BR>
>Damn straight! Not even evil world-eating BEM's want to be in Phoenix!<BR>
>Yuuuck!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course not, they would rather go to someplace like Tucson, where they<BR>
will be welcomed with open arms.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:56:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>>Sorry, but boarding actions are one of the reasons that<BR>
>>the Marines were created, so that the nancy-boys of the<BR>
>>navy would not get covered in blood.<BR>
><BR>
>Why do you keep apologizing? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Mostly because I feel pity for the members of the navy.<BR>
<BR>
>My point was, do you have any idea how silly it sounds<BR>
>to look down on someone for doing "push-button"<BR>
>warfare when no other kind of warfare will work?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, warfare is not about weapons, or tactics, or anything else<BR>
like that, it is about will.  There are several examples of small nations<BR>
holding off & even beating larger nations because the larger nations did not<BR>
have the will to win.<BR>
<BR>
>Go ahead, sink an enemy cruiser with an assault rifle<BR>
>during a shooting war.  Bring ten, we'll wait.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Can I do it anyway I want?<BR>
<BR>
>Now try to assault and hold that vital coastal<BR>
>objective with said cruiser sitting unmolested off the<BR>
>coast.  You can't even *begin* to do your job until<BR>
>the Navy wins at doing their's.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, & that is part of the support they provide to the Marines.<BR>
<BR>
>>    Sorry, but the navy's one & only real purpose in<BR>
>>life is the support the Marine Corps.<BR>
><BR>
>And the Air Force's only real purpose is to provide<BR>
>air support for the Army.  And the Army and Marine's<BR>
>only real purpose is to provide security forces for the<BR>
>Air Force's forward air bases - though if they behave,<BR>
>we'll let them go in afterwards and paint the lines<BR>
>on the parking lots we've made out of the enemy<BR>
>country.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, if you use the weapon that will make a country a parking lot,<BR>
with one blow, I am not sure I want to paint the lines on it.  *wg*<BR>
    Sorry, but lets take the German example from WWII, when Air Power won<BR>
the war against them.  And, yes, I do agree that British & American Air<BR>
Power did win the war.  Anyway, the Germans were starting to build their<BR>
factories underground, safe from bombing by the Allies, along with quarters<BR>
for the workers.<BR>
    Now, the story of WWII might have been different if the Germans were<BR>
fully prepared for the war that happened, not the war they planed on, & if<BR>
they had 2 or 3 designs for tanks & not around 600.  (Note that the Germans<BR>
had basicly around 10 designs and several variants of each, but they did not<BR>
have a standardized design like the Americans, the British, or the Russians,<BR>
this is one of the reasons they lost.  On the Eastern Front, the German<BR>
tanks were much better than the Russian T-34s, but due to the fact that each<BR>
German Tank had a limited producation run, there were not that many of them,<BR>
compared to the T-34.)<BR>
<BR>
>Each service from the Coast Guard to the Merchant<BR>
>Marine thinks they have it toughest and do the most<BR>
>important job.  It must be the nature of military<BR>
>service. <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course we do.<BR>
<BR>
>>Think about it, the navy takes the Marines to the<BR>
>>combat zone.  The navy supplies the Marine Corps.  The<BR>
>>navy does everything that the Marine Corps needs it to<BR>
>>do, so that Marines are freed up to fight.<BR>
><BR>
>You see them as taxi drivers because you've never had<BR>
>the pleasure of being in a world war.  I dearly hope<BR>
>we never, ever see one again.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed, I have served in one war, & a couple of police<BR>
actions/conflicts, & that was enough for me.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Inter-service rivalries should translate<BR>
>pretty directly, of course, from modern day to 3I.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Pretty much.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:58:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
>>post, not a rank.<BR>
><BR>
>In his first few seasons, he was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, later<BR>
>becoming some sort of Warrant officer on DS9.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, by ST canon, Miles O'Brien was, while he was on the E-D a CPO,<BR>
when he got to DS9, he was a CPO, then a WO, then a CWO.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:56:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>>Sorry, but boarding actions are one of the reasons that<BR>
>>the Marines were created, so that the nancy-boys of the<BR>
>>navy would not get covered in blood.<BR>
><BR>
>Why do you keep apologizing? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Mostly because I feel pity for the members of the navy.<BR>
<BR>
>My point was, do you have any idea how silly it sounds<BR>
>to look down on someone for doing "push-button"<BR>
>warfare when no other kind of warfare will work?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, warfare is not about weapons, or tactics, or anything else<BR>
like that, it is about will.  There are several examples of small nations<BR>
holding off & even beating larger nations because the larger nations did not<BR>
have the will to win.<BR>
<BR>
>Go ahead, sink an enemy cruiser with an assault rifle<BR>
>during a shooting war.  Bring ten, we'll wait.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Can I do it anyway I want?<BR>
<BR>
>Now try to assault and hold that vital coastal<BR>
>objective with said cruiser sitting unmolested off the<BR>
>coast.  You can't even *begin* to do your job until<BR>
>the Navy wins at doing their's.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, & that is part of the support they provide to the Marines.<BR>
<BR>
>>    Sorry, but the navy's one & only real purpose in<BR>
>>life is the support the Marine Corps.<BR>
><BR>
>And the Air Force's only real purpose is to provide<BR>
>air support for the Army.  And the Army and Marine's<BR>
>only real purpose is to provide security forces for the<BR>
>Air Force's forward air bases - though if they behave,<BR>
>we'll let them go in afterwards and paint the lines<BR>
>on the parking lots we've made out of the enemy<BR>
>country.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, if you use the weapon that will make a country a parking lot,<BR>
with one blow, I am not sure I want to paint the lines on it.  *wg*<BR>
    Sorry, but lets take the German example from WWII, when Air Power won<BR>
the war against them.  And, yes, I do agree that British & American Air<BR>
Power did win the war.  Anyway, the Germans were starting to build their<BR>
factories underground, safe from bombing by the Allies, along with quarters<BR>
for the workers.<BR>
    Now, the story of WWII might have been different if the Germans were<BR>
fully prepared for the war that happened, not the war they planed on, & if<BR>
they had 2 or 3 designs for tanks & not around 600.  (Note that the Germans<BR>
had basicly around 10 designs and several variants of each, but they did not<BR>
have a standardized design like the Americans, the British, or the Russians,<BR>
this is one of the reasons they lost.  On the Eastern Front, the German<BR>
tanks were much better than the Russian T-34s, but due to the fact that each<BR>
German Tank had a limited producation run, there were not that many of them,<BR>
compared to the T-34.)<BR>
<BR>
>Each service from the Coast Guard to the Merchant<BR>
>Marine thinks they have it toughest and do the most<BR>
>important job.  It must be the nature of military<BR>
>service. <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course we do.<BR>
<BR>
>>Think about it, the navy takes the Marines to the<BR>
>>combat zone.  The navy supplies the Marine Corps.  The<BR>
>>navy does everything that the Marine Corps needs it to<BR>
>>do, so that Marines are freed up to fight.<BR>
><BR>
>You see them as taxi drivers because you've never had<BR>
>the pleasure of being in a world war.  I dearly hope<BR>
>we never, ever see one again.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed, I have served in one war, & a couple of police<BR>
actions/conflicts, & that was enough for me.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Inter-service rivalries should translate<BR>
>pretty directly, of course, from modern day to 3I.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Pretty much.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:05:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
>> Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
><BR>
>Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
>heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?  Hell,<BR>
no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:25:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
From: red@europa.com <red@europa.com><BR>
<BR>
>I like the comparison between the French and the Zhodani.  A line<BR>
>from Babylon 5 comes to mind: "Who knew they'd be French?"  What's<BR>
>the service like in a restaurant where the waiters are <non-psionic><BR>
>Zhodani?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, IMTU, the service in a non-psionic Zhodani restaurant was bad, & I<BR>
do mean bad.  The waiters would stand around smoking cigs & chatting.  Sorta<BR>
like the last time I tried to eat in a restaurant in France.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2463<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2464<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
Re: Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: Norris' titles<BR>
RE: Zhodani slapping<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: Logistics<BR>
Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2460<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
RE: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re:Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: Marines (Was: Marines vs. Aliens)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:40:02 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> You can also turn back the clock a bit into antiquity. A movie with Greek<BR>
> battles could be quite nifty. There are quite a few battles and wars which<BR>
<BR>
I want to see the Battle of Thermopylae. Is that so much to ask?<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:00:26 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves, & Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
> >writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
> >"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
> >set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
> <BR>
> Taken literally, this means no one should make any statements about<BR>
> anything.  No 'offense' meant, but please.<BR>
> <BR>
> OT, uninteresting threads are what the F1 (delete, in Eudora) is for.<BR>
> There are plenty of ON topic threads that I don't find useful or<BR>
> interesting, so ... F1!<BR>
> <BR>
> Personally, the military discussions I find interesting, and not<BR>
> entirely off topic, as one can easilty apply historical and military<BR>
> issues like these to the Traveller universe.  You KNOW there's still<BR>
> going to be the Navy vs. Marines stuff going on, even when the Navy<BR>
> has ships the size of small planets, and the Marines come in a<BR>
> variety of species (at least to begin with).  History, and the<BR>
> current OT thread brings up other thoughts for potential Traveller<BR>
> fodder - there are bound to be instances where certain planets feel<BR>
> they were asked/required to give/sacrifice much more than others in<BR>
> the wars with the enemies of the Imperium, and perhaps that they<BR>
> received too little recognition in return.  This could start bar<BR>
> fights, gun fights, vendettas, plots against Imperial nobility...<BR>
> Oh, jeeze, I hope our evil GM isn't reading this.  What was I<BR>
> thinking!<BR>
<BR>
Good point.  That's how my wife's pirate captain became a pirate. Her<BR>
character Bette Noire was a commander in the Imperial navy with a string<BR>
of commendations.  One night at a staport bar shared with the army, an<BR>
female Aslan artillery officer got in a fight with 7 naval officers. <BR>
Bette being drunk, decided to even up the odds and waded into her fellow<BR>
officers with a stun baton.  It got her a courtmartial and the Aslan<BR>
became her first recruit.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
> <BR>
> I like the comparison between the French and the Zhodani.  A line<BR>
> from Babylon 5 comes to mind: "Who knew they'd be French?"  What's<BR>
> the service like in a restaurant where the waiters are <non-psionic><BR>
> Zhodani?<BR>
> <BR>
> Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:12:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Regards Multiple Goals<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Was also taught that triple nickle 40 is the way to go for bridge<BR>
abutments.<BR>
><BR>
>Huh? "triple nickle 40" ??<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If memory serves correctly five foot, by five foot, by five foot and 40<BR>
pounds.  That is to say the charges are in holes five feet in from the edge,<BR>
five feet between charges, and five feet deep with 40 pounds cratering<BR>
charges (ammonium nitrate).    If you want to go for cratering on a road you<BR>
vary the charges between straight 40 pound cratering charges and 40 pound<BR>
cratering charges augemented with 10 pounds of TNT.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:58:42 +1000<BR>
From: "AB" <ab@rossmack.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
Very busy at work and likely to be so until end July.  Hope to have first<BR>
world (of the two I want to do) in by end of August 2000.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh> All this real life stuff is taking me away from what's important!<BR>
<BR>
Regards.<BR>
<BR>
- -AB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 23:19:04 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention that in the Thirty Years War in europe Sweden was close<BR>
to defeating the combined power of Spain and The Holy Roman Empire until<BR>
her King Gustavus Adolphus was killed at the Battle of Lutzen in 1632.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:10 PM 5/18/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >    Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
> >were a world power at one time?  Geez, when did they find the time?<BR>
> <BR>
> Through much of the late 16th and well into the 17th Century.  There's a<BR>
> reason the Swedish seal has three crowns on it!  It was Sweden that broke<BR>
> the power of the Hanseatic League in 1534, and they romped all over Russia<BR>
> and Poland for decades.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,115262+12+108596,00.html<BR>
> --<BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:02:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:01 AM 5/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>and you also have to understand, that there is no one on a ship like that<BR>
>that doesn't have at least a college education.  There really doesn't seem<BR>
>to be any place in the ST universe for kids that drop out of high school<BR>
>or college and sign up with the military to get away from wherever they're<BR>
>at (something I surely would have done myself if my health had been<BR>
>better).<BR>
<BR>
Which explains why the only two people onboard the Enterprise who were<BR>
qualified to instal a new sensor package on a torpedo were the ship's<BR>
Scinece and Medical officers.  (ST:VI)<BR>
<BR>
ST has many, many problems, the lack of enlisted men a major one.  I always<BR>
assummed that the folks in the jumpsuits were the enlisted.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:03:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:13 AM 5/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So, what is the makeup of the 3I military?  Is it officer rich, or are<BR>
>officers stern and remote beings that make a brief appearance, smelling<BR>
>faintly of cologne (to badly misquote Heinlein).<BR>
<BR>
GF is coming folks... a little patience, and all shall be revealed.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:27:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
At 07:05 PM 5/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?  Hell,<BR>
>no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
<BR>
Rangers would.  Anyway, we eat ground-up cow meat covered with slices of<BR>
fungus-infested rotted milk.<BR>
<BR>
mmm... cheeseburgers...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:33:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 12:27 AM 5/20/2000 CEST, you wrote:<BR>
>>From "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>>Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
>>were a world power at one time?<BR>
><BR>
>I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but 90+% of the "Swedish" porn is <BR>
>Californian in origin.<BR>
<BR>
We also have almost as many blondes. <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:19:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of David P.<BR>
> Summers<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 17 May 2000 11:05 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 2:55 PM -0600 5/2/00, Jason Postma wrote:<BR>
> >  > 2. Why did the Vilani need to practice jump dimming since<BR>
> the energy for<BR>
> >the<BR>
> >  > jump came from a capacitor bank?<BR>
> >  >Well, that was IMHO a relic from the *very* early days of Vilani jump<BR>
> >drive use; the first six or so vessels didn't use capacitor banks (fewer<BR>
> >parts in a ship, so fewer parts that can fail). And later on, it had<BR>
> >become a ...You guessed it.<BR>
> >A tradition.><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Maybe only the greater portion of the energy for a jump came from a<BR>
> >capacitor - the power plant still acted to provide some portion<BR>
> of the power<BR>
> >for the jump.  A ship could presumably be designed this way - since you<BR>
> >don't need the thrusters or weapons powered when you go to jump,<BR>
> you could<BR>
> >save a lot of space on jump capacitors by having the plant<BR>
> provide the power<BR>
> >that would normally go to such systems to the j-drive.<BR>
><BR>
> It is also possible that the energy for jump comes from whatever<BR>
> you use to power the jump, but that there a regulating and controlling<BR>
> mechanism that are independantly powered.<BR>
><BR>
> It is also possible that this whole tradition on jump dimming started<BR>
> from an erroneous belief that it made a difference.<BR>
><BR>
> ______________________________<BR>
> summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>
> California.)<BR>
><BR>
Or possibley Vilani capacitors leaked energy more than usual and so required<BR>
continual topping off up till the jump was made.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:23:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?<BR>
Hell,<BR>
>>no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
><BR>
>Rangers would.  Anyway, we eat ground-up cow meat covered with slices of<BR>
>fungus-infested rotted milk.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    That would be ground up flesh of a bovine covered with slices of that<BR>
same bovine's fungus-infested rotted lactic<sp> secretions.<BR>
    And, so would Force Recon, but then we do not make it a regular part of<BR>
our diet.<BR>
<BR>
>mmm... cheeseburgers...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thats what I had for supper.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:42:23 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Norris' titles<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000 11:46:58 -0400 (EDT), Hans Rancke-Madsen<BR>
<rancke@diku.dk> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>Note that the Marquis of Regina may not owe any feudal duty to<BR>
>>the Duke of Regina (or to the County that Count Aledon holds, if<BR>
>>any), nor are the Marquisate and the Duchy necessarily coincident<BR>
>>(it would be likely that they are, but there is no necessity that<BR>
>>they be).<BR>
 <BR>
>I consider it very unlikely that the marquisate of Regina and the duchy of<BR>
>Regina would be coincident. I've always assumed that the marquisate was<BR>
>Regina System and the duchy was Regina Subsector(+Jewell Subsector (plus a<BR>
>few odd planets in Aramis and Lanth, but the last bit is admittedly very<BR>
>debatable)).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, wrong word - I don't think I was hitting on all cylinders<BR>
when I wrote that.  Rephrase that to read "... nor is the<BR>
Marquisate necessarily within and/or part of the Duchy (it would<BR>
be likely...".  Your estimation of the extent of the Duchy is not<BR>
significantly different from mine.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:06:47 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> > A climactic scene would have had the heroes coming into a room<BR>
> > that has shelves from floor to ceiling on every wall with the<BR>
> > encased heads of psionics _still alive_, plugged into machinery,<BR>
> > potentially including some NPCs very close to the PCs.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Mwahahahahaha.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > (ok, I stole the image from the old comic, Nexus).<BR>
> <BR>
> sure it wasn't 'Futurama'? ;-) <BR>
<BR>
No, Futurama stole it from Nexus too.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:09:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
> To all of you folks who responded to this particular question (about test<BR>
> card F), I really appreciate it. There's something strangely fascinating<BR>
> about a culture with that much consistency.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, thanks to Matt Stevens who pointed out that ReBoot is actually<BR>
> Canadian. Since test card F apparently also saw use there, that would<BR>
> explain it.<BR>
<BR>
Something very similar, if not exactly the same, was used down here in New<BR>
Zealand too.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:51:49 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, ST does have enlisted personnel.  It's just that these are<BR>
> almost never given any play on camera.  If you look (especially in the<BR>
> Original Series) you see occasional "crewmen" as extras.<BR>
><BR>
> It's not Starfleet that's egalitarian, it's the series writers who are<BR>
> elitists :-).<BR>
<BR>
If I remember correctly the best (only?) non officer episode was "Lower Decks".<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:07:55 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Logistics<BR>
<BR>
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Logistics. (was America vs Europe)<BR>
...<BR>
>have four powers.  Beyond that an organized alliance is unlikely, but given<BR>
the time >lag in the OTU it is reasonable to consider a war which lasts for<BR>
decades, in which >case you can have a sort of spontaneous coalition (as in<BR>
attacks on several fronts).<BR>
<BR>
  Granted - which could explain why we don't seem to see those sorts of<BR>
wars in the history (although the economic damage that they inflict on the<BR>
participants could explain that, too).<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:28:28 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
on 5/19/00 7:05 PM, Legate Legion at legate@futureone.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> <BR>
>>> Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
>>> Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
>> heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?  Hell,<BR>
> no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
 <BR>
Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good. I'd take a snail<BR>
over haggis any day (having tried both).  Ok, the French eat some weird<BR>
things, but on balance I can think of dozens of good things for every weird<BR>
one.  The English? what, fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and<BR>
squeak? toad in the hole? (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
<BR>
I know some of you out there eat this stuff by choice.  No wonder the<BR>
British forged a grand empire.  They were looking for something decent to<BR>
eat.  This also explains Germany's frequent trips to France for take out.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone given any thought to the haute cuisine (or 'delicacies') of the 3I.<BR>
What do wealthy nobles serve when the want to impress their friends? filet<BR>
of Harp's Grunsblatter beast, pat of tree-rat bloof organ, or perhaps a<BR>
nice mold of jellied Arcturan termite tongues.<BR>
<BR>
All you folks with steward-4, you're up.<BR>
<BR>
(apologies to all the Brits out there for insulting you food.  I'm sure you<BR>
make something tastey.  It's just that nothing immediately comes to mind.)<BR>
<BR>
Grins,<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:33:41 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2460<BR>
<BR>
On 05/19/00 at 02:03 PM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Tod Glenn quoted and expanded thusly:<BR>
>> > Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
>> > heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The French are the chefs, the British the policemen and the Germans the<BR>
>> mechanics.<BR>
<BR>
>...the lovers are Italian, and the whole thing is organized by the Swiss.<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In hell they're all driving French cars, eating English food and have German<BR>
>> Police.<BR>
<BR>
>...the lovers are Swiss, and the whole thing is organized by the<BR>
>Italians.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, that describes the US, perfectly!<BR>
<BR>
Which one?   uh, both. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:58:35 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
...<BR>
>    Acutally, I have just finished a book that talks about WWII, & it was<BR>
>written by a Brit, & for the first time he does not claim that England won<BR>
<BR>
  I don't believe that Paul Johnson has written on the subject as such, but<BR>
I do recall skimming another outrageously bad book recently - is this a `99<BR>
or 2000 title you've got?<BR>
<BR>
>the war with just a little help from America.  He claims that it was<BR>
>Anglo-American teamwork that won the war.  I will agree that the Brits had<BR>
<BR>
  I very much doubt that anyone has seriously claimed that US help was trivial,<BR>
although the case could be made that the UK quite possibly could have won with-<BR>
out their active help.<BR>
<BR>
>more experienced personel, but America had the industrial might to win the<BR>
>war.  We could produce more of everything than England could & without<BR>
>America, England would have starved.  Of course the fact that we did not<BR>
<BR>
  I'd want to check specific figures, but broadly speaking the UK didn't<BR>
need US food imports - they could always buy them somewhere else.<BR>
<BR>
>enforce the Neutrality Acts of 1939 & 1940 could have had something to do<BR>
>with it as well.<BR>
<BR>
  As much stupidity as might be attributed to US diplomacy, and isolationist<BR>
sentiment in particular, it's hard to imagine an embargo on goods to the UK<BR>
being enforced, for any number of reasons. <BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: Santanocheev had a staff, and they all had qualifications...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:01:05 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn:<BR>
>Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good. I'd take a snail<BR>
>over haggis any day (having tried both).  Ok, the French eat some weird<BR>
>things, but on balance I can think of dozens of good things for every weird<BR>
>one.  The English? what, fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and<BR>
>squeak? toad in the hole? (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so in spite of my ancestry I can't get behind this haggis <BR>
thing, and I love garlic, but snails?  No thank you, I have serious <BR>
qualms about paying some one money so I can eat slugs in shells.  Eww!<BR>
<BR>
I like fish and chips, and bangers and mash.  I have no idea who <BR>
named these (and the other) dishes, although I think alcohol was <BR>
involved somehow.  (Similar to the conditions that resulted in the <BR>
sport of luge.)<BR>
<BR>
>I know some of you out there eat this stuff by choice.  No wonder the<BR>
>British forged a grand empire.  They were looking for something decent to<BR>
>eat.  This also explains Germany's frequent trips to France for take out.<BR>
<BR>
This might explain all of the conflicts in Europe as a quest for <BR>
decent take away.  Or beer.  So which planets are known for the best <BR>
beer?  Let's invade/free them first!<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone given any thought to the haute cuisine (or 'delicacies') of the 3I.<BR>
>What do wealthy nobles serve when the want to impress their friends? filet<BR>
>of Harp's Grunsblatter beast, pat of tree-rat bloof organ, or perhaps a<BR>
>nice mold of jellied Arcturan termite tongues.<BR>
<BR>
One being's fish is another being's poisson.  Hiver "delicacies"... <BR>
boy, doesn't that sound like the stuff nightmares are made of!  And <BR>
how do you run a restaurant on a starport that caters to everyone?? <BR>
Just think of some of the buffets an unsuspecting tourist could run <BR>
into.<BR>
<BR>
>All you folks with steward-4, you're up.<BR>
><BR>
>(apologies to all the Brits out there for insulting you food.  I'm sure you<BR>
>make something tastey.  It's just that nothing immediately comes to mind.)<BR>
<BR>
Roast beef and Yorkshire pudding.  I know, I know, but if it's done <BR>
right, it's really good!  Honest.  Oh come on, you eat raw fish!<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:08:49 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: RE: WW1 (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
>Before I go on, I'd like to say that despite the fact I believe Volker's<BR>
>history books to be incorrect, I didn't respond to his post because, quite<BR>
>frankly it appeared to be idiotic drivel. If Volker is offended by this<BR>
>statement, I really don't care, nor do I apologize. If he wants to play the<BR>
>game of "my country killed a higher percentage of your fathers /<BR>
>grandfathers / uncles / cousins / brothers than your country did mine",<BR>
>that's up to him. It doesn't mean I have to take part, nor will I. Such<BR>
>callousness is, quite literally, stomach turning to me. We're talking about<BR>
>one of the most tragic wastes of human life in human history.<BR>
Oh, were back to personal attacks now, are we?<BR>
Well, it seems to me that youve totally misread my post. I just stated <BR>
what i learned about this tragic war, i wasnt passing judgement of any <BR>
kind. If you ask me, anyone who starts a war is an absolute idiot. <BR>
Glorifying the "heroisms" of war was not my intention at all. I was just <BR>
disputing the quoted post, the "we saved your asses bit". (I include my ass <BR>
as being saved for I wouldnt have wanted the other side to win, even <BR>
though it was my countrymen who lost. I do not believe to have anything <BR>
more in common with the men who fought on the German side of the war than <BR>
with those who fought on the Allied side, apart from what it says on my <BR>
passport. I do not believe in collective guilt of any kind).<BR>
<BR>
Being born in 1974, the wars are just a history lesson to me, and one that <BR>
is no more important for my life than it is for yours. They do not and <BR>
should not affect my life in any way. In fact, as i dont see myself more <BR>
German than European, it wasnt "my side" that lost the war, even though <BR>
some of my ancestors have fought in it.<BR>
<BR>
>If the best thing you can come up with as a comment on the Great War<BR>
>consists of squabbling over who shed more blood, then that's really petty<BR>
>and sad.<BR>
Indeed it is, and it is not what i wanted to say. If you read that into my <BR>
post, you saw something i didnt want to put in there.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:17:18 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
>Modern Warfare?!  The reason there were so many casualties in WWI was that<BR>
>in spite of modern weaponry, 19th century tactics were still being employed<BR>
>(no one, not even the Americans, who should have known better, had learned<BR>
>the lessons of the American civil war).  The massed bayonet charge was folly<BR>
>even without the introduction of the machinegun. The German general von<BR>
>Hutier was really the first to grasp the tactics of modern war, along with<BR>
>Briton B. H. Liddelhart.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly. Sot in the beginning the Americans were ill equipped for the war <BR>
they were facing. Some of the modern tactics and weaponry, like tanks, etc <BR>
surprised the US-forces in the beginning and caused heavy losses.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:23:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good. I'd take a snail<BR>
>over haggis any day (having tried both).  Ok, the French eat some weird<BR>
>things, but on balance I can think of dozens of good things for every weird<BR>
>one.  The English? what, fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and<BR>
>squeak? toad in the hole? (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, all of that is some good eating.<BR>
    Fish & Chips....you get that when you go to Long John Silvers, it is<BR>
batter-dipped, fried white fish & french fries.<BR>
    Bangers & Mash...Sausage & Mashed Potatoes.<BR>
    Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
    Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:48:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 15:50 -0400 19/5/00, Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> wrote:<BR>
> By WWII they had<BR>
>learned quite a bit, but in their first AO (Africa) they took severe<BR>
>beatings as well, at least in the first couple of battles.<BR>
<BR>
My late grandfather, who served in the Eighth Army in Africa, gave me <BR>
some anecdotal evidence on that. Having seen initial US operations he <BR>
held Rommel's forces in far more respect than his US allies.<BR>
<BR>
This is not meant to be knocking the US list members or those who <BR>
died on either side, just an observation that I had heard similar <BR>
stories to Volker from someone I trust.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:38:51 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?<BR>
<BR>
Aslan Guard perhaps?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:42:20 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I really miss not being able to blow up one<BR>
> bridge.  I mean one stinking bridge, is that too much to ask?<BR>
<BR>
Apparently so....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:47:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines (Was: Marines vs. Aliens)<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
> >If an entire Marine Task Force shows<BR>
> >up, you are in *serious* trouble.  If anybody mentions "Armored Cavalry<BR>
> >Regiment," learn Zhodani and start running Spinward.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, if your world is average Imperial tech or below, a marine regiment is<BR>
> certainly bad news. But as I pointed out during the playtest, marine regiments<BR>
> in the _5th Frontier War_ game are no tougher than any other TL-15 regiment of<BR>
> the same size (and they're not armored calvary, BTW). Indeed of the 8 marine<BR>
> regiments in the countermix, only 2 are elite (though this is more than the<BR>
> average 10% of troops that are said to be elite). <BR>
<BR>
Hans has it occurred to you that a "regiment" of Marines in<BR>
Battledress may have _fewer_ people in it than other regiments.<BR>
This would let the Marines to be tougher, sophont per sophont, yet<BR>
have the same mass combat strength as other TL-15 regiments.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2464<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2465<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Frontier Wars (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: nonempty sets (was Re: OT: ST officers)<BR>
RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
Re:Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The great leap forward OT:<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re:Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
RE: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re:Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Best RPG Vote Update<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:56:26 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> frankie@mundens.gen.nz issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> > it would be very hard to beat "All Quiet On The Western Front"<BR>
<BR>
> Agreed, but I'd like to see somebody try. But not a remake of AQOTWF, as I<BR>
> prefer remakes to fix potentially good movies done poorly.<BR>
<BR>
When I first read your post R/E AQOTWF I read it as ACQOTWF <BR>
or At Close Quarters on the Western Front and I had a sudden <BR>
picture of Doug Berry's combat rules being scaled up considerably....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:11:57 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Frontier Wars (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote<BR>
<BR>
> is it generally accepted reasoning<BR>
> that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I territories, just keep<BR>
> them at bay, and so all the "Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to<BR>
> halt the Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
<BR>
As others have already said canon indicates that this is <BR>
the case.<BR>
<BR>
However canon does not state that the Imperium knows this.<BR>
IMTU Norris was one of the first Imperials to figure out<BR>
why the Zhodani kept attacking. He was able to use this knowledge<BR>
of Zhodani goals to help 'win the war'. By convincing the Zhodani<BR>
that the Imperium _wasn't_ planning to advance eh was able to<BR>
convince them that they had already won. Combining this with good<BR>
administrative strategy (and sacking Santanocheev) enabled<BR>
Norris to get the Zho's to the bargaining table. IMTU<BR>
Norris let the Zhodani at the conference read his mind r/e<BR>
Imperial intentions. After reading his mind Norris's Zhodani <BR>
noble counterpart became convinced that the ZHodani had 'won'<BR>
and he readily agreed to end the war.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU no previous Imperial leader in the Marches had ever<BR>
permitted the Zhodani to read his mind. From the Zhodani point<BR>
of view the only reason previous Imperial leaders had not<BR>
permitted the Zhodani to read their minds was that the 'treacherous'<BR>
Imperials were, in fact, plotting to invade space the Consulate<BR>
considered theirs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:34:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>     Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
>>> Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
>><BR>
>>Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
>>heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?  Hell,<BR>
> no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
<BR>
I assume that you don't eat clams, oysters, scallops, etc? If you *do*,<BR>
then what's the difference? I've tried snails once. They tasted like<BR>
clams. Big deal. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:14:24 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: nonempty sets (was Re: OT: ST officers)<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> "For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
> set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
I am absolutely outraged that you would utter such an outrageous<BR>
and shameful lie. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:18:45 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jump Capacitors and Jump Dimming<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
> >Maybe only the greater portion of the energy for a jump came from a<BR>
capacitor - the power plant still acted to provide some portion of the<BR>
power for the jump.&nbsp; A ship could presumably be designed this way<BR>
- - since you&nbsp; don't need the thrusters or weapons powered when you<BR>
go to jump, you could save a lot of space on jump capacitors by having<BR>
the plant provide the power that would normally go to such systems to the<BR>
j-drive.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
Actually this is how tube type radars develope the high voltage that is required to "fire up" the tube.&nbsp; You use a Pulse-Forming-Network (PFN) that charges until you are ready to fire the tube - effectively (but not quite) doubling your power.&nbsp; The power supply provides half and the PFN provides the other half. <BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:20:57 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Do you actually ever read history books ????!!!! Lend-Lease referred to the <BR>
> power given to the US President to Lend or lease US equipment as he saw <BR>
> fit. I'll explain it using FDRs words to explain it to the US people "When my <BR>
> neighbour's house is burning I do not say "This hose cost me $50", I say <BR>
> "Here, use my hose, bring it back when you are finished"". I repeat again, <BR>
> there was no charge associated with Lend-Lease (that was the whole point <BR>
> to it).<BR>
<BR>
"This FDR person was not much of a businessman. When houses <BR>
are burning down I have my men go up to up to the owners of<BR>
neighboring houses and offer to buy _their_ houses from<BR>
them, at a tenth of market value, before they burn down too.<BR>
Then I have my men put out the fire. This is how I got to be<BR>
the richest man in Rome." - Crassus<BR>
<BR>
Did you ever wonder if Crassus was a Ferengi?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:48:45 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward OT:<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
someone wrote<BR>
> >>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
> >>post, not a rank.<BR>
<BR>
> >In his first few seasons, he was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, later<BR>
> >becoming some sort of Warrant officer on DS9.<BR>
<BR>
>Correct, by ST canon, Miles O'Brien was, while he was on the E-D a CPO,<BR>
> when he got to DS9, he was a CPO, then a WO, then a CWO.<BR>
<BR>
True according to ST canon (such as it is). However as someone <BR>
(Hans?) pointed out there were several episodes (in about Season <BR>
1 and 2) where O'Brien clearly wore a full Lieutenants two gold <BR>
pips. In the pilot 'Encounter at Farpoint' O'Brien clearly had <BR>
an Ensign's single pip.<BR>
<BR>
One pip, red uniform, 'Encounter'<BR>
<BR>
file://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/tv.film/StarTrek-TNG/sttng-digitized/sttng035.gif<BR>
<BR>
Two pips, gold uniform, not sure of episode<BR>
<BR>
file://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/tv.film/StarTrek-TNG/sttng-digitized/sttng130.gif<BR>
<BR>
Both are off of a Chief O'Brien page at:<BR>
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~sgeier/obrien.html<BR>
<BR>
_My_ explanation of this fact is that for two or three years<BR>
Starfleet tables of organization required that the post of<BR>
Transporter Chief on a Galaxy class ship be filled by a<BR>
Lieutenant or better and that bridge crew (In 'Encounter'<BR>
Miles wore red & was bridge crew) be at least an Ensign.<BR>
<BR>
Picard had O'Brien breveted to Ensign to be bridge crew and<BR>
(later) to Lieutenant so he could be Transporter Chief. Other <BR>
starfleet ships Captains weren't so wise and Starfleet lost some <BR>
good Transporter Chiefs who resigned unwilling to be Assistant <BR>
Transporter Chief "Behind some snot nosed punk fresh out of the <BR>
Academy." After a few fatal transporter accidents due to inexperienced<BR>
Transporter Chiefs Starfleet wised up. When Starfleet eliminated <BR>
the rank requirement O'Brien was returned to his permanent rank.<BR>
<BR>
This explanation is not ST canon (and probably never will be as it's <BR>
too simple).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 03:03:55 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
someone wrote<BR>
> >> do you think the Zhodani are a bit like the French in the<BR>
> >> fact that they don't know how to drink beer,<BR>
<BR>
> from canon we know that the average Zhodani Noble is arrogant, so<BR>
> lets expand upon this a bit & add in other things.  Like hairy women (could<BR>
> this be why the Zhodani have less births?) & the fact that they do not know<BR>
> how to drink beer (come-on, they live in a society that is a police state,<BR>
> they go for the hard stuff, not beer.).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if the Zhodani go for alcohol at all.<BR>
<BR>
"Tell me Citizen why do you feel the need to alter your brain<BR>
chemistry with poisons? Wait here while I go get someone to help <BR>
you with this problem."<BR>
<BR>
A month later the Zhodani reappears and now he would never think<BR>
of wanting anything stronger than a nice lemonade...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:10:40 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re:Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 20 May 00, at 2:20, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > I'll explain it using FDRs words to explain it to the US people "When my<BR>
> > neighbour's house is burning I do not say "This hose cost me $50", I say<BR>
> > "Here, use my hose, bring it back when you are finished"". I repeat again,<BR>
> > there was no charge associated with Lend-Lease (that was the whole point to<BR>
> > it).<BR>
<BR>
> "This FDR person was not much of a businessman. When houses <BR>
> are burning down I have my men go up to up to the owners of<BR>
> neighboring houses and offer to buy _their_ houses from<BR>
> them, at a tenth of market value, before they burn down too.<BR>
> Then I have my men put out the fire. This is how I got to be<BR>
> the richest man in Rome." - Crassus<BR>
<BR>
Yep, FDR was no businessman, and for that the world may be eternally <BR>
grateful :*><BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc (who is quite "fond" of FDR).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 07:47:56 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000 18:31:58 -0700, "Legate Legion"<BR>
<legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kagehira@aol.com <Kagehira@aol.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>  Not entirely true.<BR>
>>>  Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
>>>  <grin><BR>
>><BR>
>>That's because sheep don't pay to watch movies, only couch potatoes do<BR>
><grin><BR>
><BR>
>    New Zealand, where men are men, women are bored, & the sheep are scared<BR>
>silly.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like West Virginia. Of course there the sheep also have cute<BR>
names.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"I was going to write myself in, but I was afraid I'd get shot."<BR>
                                       -Lincoln Kennedy, Oakland Raiders tackle, <BR>
                                        on his decision not to vote<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:18:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
On 20 May 00, at 7:47, Pete wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >    New Zealand, where men are men, women are bored, & the sheep are scared<BR>
> >silly.<BR>
<BR>
> Sounds like West Virginia. Of course there the sheep also have cute<BR>
> names.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Actually the way I usually hear it is:<BR>
<BR>
"<insert rural locale of your choice>, where men are men, women are <BR>
scarce and sheep are nervous".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:01:43 -0400<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein was a graduate of the Naval Academy, probably brain washed....<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Eric Henry" <ehenry@newberlin.org><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 9:27 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Heinlein in _Space Cadet_ actually makes the argument that a space service<BR>
> would in fact be all officers.<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: The Great Leap Forward! (Way OT)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:20:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
I agree - HTML standards are for display _formatting_ (presentation,<BR>
not for applications) but browser applications are not _intended_ to<BR>
use HTML standards. They are intended to use _Internet_ standards,<BR>
including XHTML, CSSL, XML and ECMAScript, to name but a few. ActiveX<BR>
uses COM+ *Microsoft* standards (NOT public standards) and one of the<BR>
resolution judgements from the DoJ court case is that Microsoft should<BR>
adopt (or adapt COM+ to use) DOM standards. That would immediately<BR>
mean that the simple use of ActiveX as in IE5 would be no longer<BR>
available. Consequently, it is shortsighted in the extreme for<BR>
software to be written to require a *Microsoft* browser rather than a<BR>
standard browser - and the W3C strongly advise and support the use of<BR>
Netscape 6 Preview Release 1 or later as the most suitable *standard*<BR>
browser for browser applications.<BR>
<BR>
Please note that I didn't start this discussion as a "Microsoft<BR>
bashing" exercise, but because some Traveller software such as (I am<BR>
told and will soon find out, having just dowloaded it) Heaven and<BR>
Earth REQUIRE IE5 to run. I don't want to see any of us go to the<BR>
effort and trouble to write this stuff for us to use in our games only<BR>
to have the rug pulled out from under our collective feet by Microsoft<BR>
changing its rules.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Juliean<BR>
> Galak<BR>
> Sent: 18 May 2000 20:32<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
><BR>
> You are right that it's meant as a framework for browser apps<BR>
> (as opposed to other kinds of apps), but I don't see any reason<BR>
> to expect it to be restricted to HTML standards.  I'd prefer if it<BR>
> supported the standards better, but it's use of ActiveX allows for<BR>
> creation of (browser) apps that exceed anything standard HTML<BR>
> allows.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:07:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
<BR>
Understandable, Leonard, but I assure you there will be just one. How<BR>
do I assure you of this - well because its a pet interest of mine and<BR>
I keep up with the developments (well worth it, I guarantee). There<BR>
are currently two competing technologies that could work and I have<BR>
seen both running in test modes.<BR>
<BR>
1. A cylindrical tank is used with a half-spiral inner transparent<BR>
"screen". This rotates at a hell of a lick and is lit by two<BR>
base-mounted lasers - when the lasers cross on the spiral screen, the<BR>
phosphor dot there lights up very briefly (a matter of nanoseconds).<BR>
Since the spiral rotates so fast, and persistence of vision is a lot<BR>
longer than the rotation time, that gives the impression of a "true"<BR>
3D representation 'inside' the cylindrical viewer.<BR>
<BR>
2. A standard TV screen - the one I saw was actually virtually flat,<BR>
since the experimental gear was mounted outside the screen rather than<BR>
at the back as in a normal TV. This lights up the screen as normal,<BR>
but somehow (I didn't actually understand the explantation - unusal<BR>
honesty for me that <grin>) each eye sees a slightly different image.<BR>
It only works for a 45 degree arc in front of the screen, but they<BR>
said they are working to expand the arc. Unlike the "tank" version, it<BR>
was only in black and white when I saw it as well, although they say a<BR>
colour version should be easy.<BR>
<BR>
Both work, but I am certain that (2) will be the one to become<BR>
popular - not because of the technology but because of the camera<BR>
requirements. Cameras for (1) are complicated and need to _surround_<BR>
the subject - you could actually still see some of the cameras on the<BR>
test image. Those for (2) are just simple, standard cameras and can be<BR>
used from "in front" of the image but need to be separated by a fair<BR>
distance. I got the impression from the explanation that the distance<BR>
they are separated affects the arc you can view the 3D effect from.<BR>
The smart stuff for (2) is in image processing rather than fancy<BR>
engineering for 3D as in (1) - and simple systems nearly always win<BR>
out. Of course, you can't look "behind" the image, but what TV<BR>
producer would _want_ you to be able to do that?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: 19 May 2000 20:57<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > OB Trav<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The players arrive on a planet to discover that all the shops have<BR>
> > just shut, the bars don't open for a couple of hours and the local<BR>
> > entertainment networks are showing holovid alignment patterns.<BR>
><BR>
> It occurs to me that there really should be *two* types of "3d" TV<BR>
> developed in the future.<BR>
>[snip]<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:49:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
At 19:54 -0400 19/5/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > It'd be nice to see one from the point of the defenders of Constantinople.<BR>
><BR>
>Defending against Crusaders or defending against the "hordes of Islam"?<BR>
>:-)<BR>
<BR>
Against the Crusaders.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:58:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 23:27 -0400 19/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>    Well from canon we know that the average Zhodani Noble is arrogant, so<BR>
>lets expand upon this a bit & add in other things.  Like hairy women (could<BR>
>this be why the Zhodani have less births?) & the fact that they do not know<BR>
>how to drink beer (come-on, they live in a society that is a police state,<BR>
>they go for the hard stuff, not beer.).<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression <BR>
that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 12:38:19 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Heaven & Earth v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
At 10:23 PM 5/14/00, you wrote:<BR>
>FYI, I can't get TwistedPixel to install.  I don't have regsvr32 or<BR>
>regvr32 (it's spelled both ways in the directions) apparently.<BR>
><BR>
>Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
         It should be c:\windows\system\regsvr32<BR>
<BR>
         Some poorly behaved programs stomp on the "PATH" statement in the <BR>
AUTOEXEC.BAT, meaning that "c:\windows\system" is no longer on the <BR>
path.  Spell it out and it should work fine.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt	<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 17:52:22 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> Fine.  I shall never again bother to share a movie review, since it obvious<BR>
> that any discussion of *any* aspect of American culture will bring out the<BR>
> Yanks in Space crowd.<BR>
<BR>
This is sad. I posted a review of Pitch Black a few days ago, something<BR>
which for some reason sparked a long discussion on real world US<BR>
Marines. Also seems to happen as soon as the word "Marine" is mentioned,<BR>
no matter in what context.<BR>
<BR>
Note that I didn't mention the 'M' word in my review...<BR>
<BR>
> Jens, I like you, and you make some good points, but please read what I write below<BR>
> closely.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that I made one post in an evening when I was (for<BR>
personal reasons) in a generally sour mood. I made another post<BR>
apologizing for this the morning after. After that; I haven't (to my<BR>
knowledge) posted anything offensive.<BR>
<BR>
I might have been a match igniting the whole flamefest (for that I<BR>
apologize once more), but I haven't been fanning the flames.<BR>
<BR>
> Right now, at this point in history, the United States is the most powerful<BR>
> nation in the world.  If this offends some people's sensibilities, too bad.<BR>
<BR>
I addressed this in my apology.<BR>
<BR>
> My last words on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
And these are mine:<BR>
<BR>
Can we please get back to Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: Since the X-boat network is used for public mail, it is probably<BR>
used for discussion forums. How many invasions, near-c-rock bombings,<BR>
economic sanctions, and other unpleasantness have been the results of<BR>
flame wars?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
PS  I have not become angry during this discussion, and I still like the<BR>
list people. It's just that some (including myself) have a slight<BR>
tendency of getting carried away...  DS<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:12:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 09:48 PM 5/19/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>My late grandfather, who served in the Eighth Army in Africa, gave me <BR>
>some anecdotal evidence on that. Having seen initial US operations he <BR>
>held Rommel's forces in far more respect than his US allies.<BR>
><BR>
>This is not meant to be knocking the US list members or those who <BR>
>died on either side, just an observation that I had heard similar <BR>
>stories to Volker from someone I trust.<BR>
<BR>
Rommel's forces were experienced regulars, the newly arrived Americans were<BR>
National Guardsmen who had never heard a shot fired in anger.  Of course<BR>
our early experiences were bad.. it also didn't help that we were still<BR>
using the M3 Stuart as a MBT.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:15:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
At 01:38 AM 5/20/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?<BR>
><BR>
>Aslan Guard perhaps?<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Marine Commando Company<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:19:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
At 12:34 AM 5/20/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I assume that you don't eat clams, oysters, scallops, etc? If you *do*,<BR>
>then what's the difference? I've tried snails once. They tasted like<BR>
>clams. Big deal. <BR>
<BR>
How about crab?  Just big aquatic spiders, but they taste so good smothered<BR>
in garlic buter, and..<BR>
<BR>
excuse me, I have to make a run to the wharf now.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:53:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:58 AM 5/20/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression <BR>
>that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
<BR>
Indeed, I got the impression that most Zhodani are fairly peaceful, nice<BR>
folks.  Of course, the ones we meet in our games are usually military, so<BR>
they're a little different.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't it one of the Keith brothers who wrote a piece by a Zhodani<BR>
ambassador for JTAS?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:05:57 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Note: Sweden has during various periods of history included Finland, as<BR>
well as other land areas spread around the Baltic Sea. We were a large<BR>
military power a few hundred years back.<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> Two names. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII. For my money, Charles XII is<BR>
> one of the top 10 generals of all time - up their with Giap, Zhukov,<BR>
> Alexander, Julius Ceasar, Washington, Napoleon and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Karl XII. Charles is the English form of the name, but no matter how<BR>
much you'd like to, you don't translate names. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
As an example, the Swedish form of the name George is Georg (pronounced<BR>
GE-org, with both the 'g's sounding like the beginning of the word<BR>
"genetic").<BR>
<BR>
We don't use this name for George Washington :-)<BR>
<BR>
> The Swedes then decided that they didnt want to play with the big boys,<BR>
<BR>
Not exactly true. The above-mentioned Karl XII made a *huge* tactical<BR>
mistake which killed lots of his men. He was then hit by an improvised<BR>
bullet (a button) in the back of his head...<BR>
<BR>
> although this wasnt formalised until they hired the ex-French Marshall<BR>
> Bernadotte as King (Nappy thought this was great.<BR>
<BR>
Political maneuver to avoid having enemies taking advantage of our<BR>
weakened position. Other contacts with other nations were established as<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
As every Avalon Hill fanatic knows, Diplomacy is the key to victory :-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:16:58 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Best RPG Vote Update<BR>
<BR>
As of 16 May 2000, the Best RPG voting booth was reset, to reflect the<BR>
fact that voting is now restricted.  After my three votes (three e-mail<BR>
addresses), Traveller is tied with Earthdawn for fifth place (five<BR>
votes), seven votes behind the first-place-tied Dark Conspiracy and<BR>
Alternity.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.freevote.com/booth/best_rpg<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:13:58 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In message <013401bfc13c$055c5940$1409fad1@legate>, Legate Legion<BR>
<legate@futureone.com> writes<BR>
>    And, that is all that I saw it as.  Of course if you will look closely,<BR>
>it was not the Army, not the Air Force, not the Navy, not the Coast Guard<BR>
>that saved the US, but the Marines.  And, in that it was totaly truthful.<BR>
>Only the Marines can save the US from an alien invasion.<BR>
<BR>
ITYM "a drunkard cropduster" HTH HAND<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:34:44 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
>on 5/19/00 7:05 PM, Legate Legion at legate@futureone.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >>> Well, you know you can blame the French for alot of things, like the<BR>
> >>> Hundred Years War, Napolean, The French & Indian War, bad food<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Whoa. I think you're getting the French mixed up with the Brits there. In<BR>
> >> heaven, the chefs are French.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail?  Hell,<BR>
> > no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
>Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good. I'd take a snail<BR>
>over haggis any day (having tried both).  Ok, the French eat some weird<BR>
>things, but on balance I can think of dozens of good things for every weird<BR>
>one.  The English? what, fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and<BR>
>squeak? toad in the hole? (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
><BR>
>I know some of you out there eat this stuff by choice.  No wonder the<BR>
>British forged a grand empire.  They were looking for something decent to<BR>
>eat.  This also explains Germany's frequent trips to France for take out.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone given any thought to the haute cuisine (or 'delicacies') of the 3I.<BR>
>What do wealthy nobles serve when the want to impress their friends? filet<BR>
>of Harp's Grunsblatter beast, pat of tree-rat bloof organ, or perhaps a<BR>
>nice mold of jellied Arcturan termite tongues.<BR>
><BR>
>All you folks with steward-4, you're up.<BR>
><BR>
>(apologies to all the Brits out there for insulting you food.  I'm sure you<BR>
>make something tastey.  It's just that nothing immediately comes to mind.)<BR>
><BR>
>Grins,<BR>
>Tod<BR>
>--<BR>
>"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
>killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
>--<BR>
>Tod Glenn<BR>
>mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
Although I haven't tried all of these, some of the interesting ones <BR>
are those that can kill you if not prepared exactly right. Then there <BR>
are the delicacies that can seriously injure if not kill you just <BR>
catching them.<BR>
Rattlesnake for instance... Tastes like chicken...Sort of.<BR>
And there's a particular kind of fish that if it's not cleaned just <BR>
right (I forget what it's called) will poison you if you eat it.<BR>
There are probably more of these types of fare in the world.<BR>
<BR>
Try Thragar eye stalks... I hear they are fantastic with a red sauce. <BR>
This is one of those that will eat you if you don't eat it first.<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2465<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2466</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2466<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
[OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Music in the 3I<BR>
Re: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Traveller Universities Update (was: Re: A Question of Products from  BITS)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:51:58 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, just coincidentally, (and for all of you who are wondering) I ran<BR>
across a jpeg of Test Card F yesterday. Its at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sheilsoft.com/wallpap.htm in the Misc section.<BR>
<BR>
Lotsa neat stuff at that site; quite an eclectic collection of desktop<BR>
wallpaper. It's also quite a striking web design. Very nice.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> To all of you folks who responded to this particular question (about test<BR>
> card F), I really appreciate it. There's something strangely fascinating<BR>
> about a culture with that much consistency.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, thanks to Matt Stevens who pointed out that ReBoot is actually<BR>
> Canadian. Since test card F apparently also saw use there, that would<BR>
> explain it.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 10:57:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/19/00 9:33 PM, gridlore@pop.mindspring.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
>>> From "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>>> Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of really good porn,<BR>
>>> were a world power at one time?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I'm sorry if this will disappoint you but 90+% of the "Swedish" porn is<BR>
>> Californian in origin.<BR>
> <BR>
> We also have almost as many blondes.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Mostly chemically induced blondes, but OK.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:06:18 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 19 May 2000, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
> <BR>
> >>     Major population centers, & capitals.  Remember Dallas-Ft. Worth was<BR>
> >> also hit, but not Phoenix.  Could that be why I live here?  A major city<BR>
> who<BR>
> >> is 100% safe from Alien Attack & Nuclear War.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Damn straight! Not even evil world-eating BEM's want to be in Phoenix!<BR>
> >Yuuuck!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>     Of course not, they would rather go to someplace like Tucson, where they<BR>
> will be welcomed with open arms.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Of course! <BR>
<BR>
Set 'em down, feed them some fine Sonoran food from Rosa's, ply them with<BR>
some of Nimbus or Gentle Ben's microbrews...give 'em a week, and<BR>
they'll forget all about this 'destroying the world' stuff.<BR>
<BR>
"Manana, manana" they'll say, "Plenty of time for that manana. Right now<BR>
there's a cold brewskie to hand, a cool breeze from the swamp cooler, and<BR>
a nice sunset thing going on. I think I'll just kick back and mellow out a<BR>
while..."<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:08:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/20/00 1:23 AM, legate@futureone.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
> Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
<BR>
These are new to me, anyone know the etymology of these terms? "Banger" for<BR>
sausage is odd enough, but "Bubble & Squeak"? Where does that get it's name?<BR>
And why would one name a pastry after an amphibian?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:42:19 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone tell me what software is the best for creating jewel-case labels?<BR>
I tried Ultimate Label Pro and it's the worst crap I've ever seen (amidst<BR>
generating several ERRORS it didn't even print correctly).<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:26:12 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
Any graphic design program should be capable<BR>
of doing this.  Its just a matter of formatting the<BR>
paper size.  IIRC, CorelDraw has a CD case<BR>
label size pre-formatted.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
J-Man wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone tell me what software is the best for creating jewel-case labels?<BR>
> I tried Ultimate Label Pro and it's the worst crap I've ever seen (amidst<BR>
> generating several ERRORS it didn't even print correctly).<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
>  J-Man<BR>
>  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
>  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
>  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:29:33 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: An OT question for the Brits (was Re: Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, just coincidentally, (and for all of you who are wondering) I ran<BR>
>across a jpeg of Test Card F yesterday. Its at:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.sheilsoft.com/wallpap.htm in the Misc section.<BR>
><BR>
>Lotsa neat stuff at that site; quite an eclectic collection of desktop<BR>
>wallpaper. It's also quite a striking web design. Very nice.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. I should have included a link for those interested.<BR>
<BR>
This is the site with the BBC test cards and lots of general BBC nostalgia:<BR>
http://www.meldrum.co.uk/mhp/<BR>
<BR>
While the following site has a lot of testcards thrown randomly together<BR>
(some duplicate those on the site above):<BR>
http://www.canit.se/~thbe/testcard.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 16:12:43 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
I've tried 4 other packages and although they work better, they either<BR>
aren't intuitive or are lacking in features..SIGH.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Steve Daniels" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 3:26 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Any graphic design program should be capable<BR>
> of doing this.  Its just a matter of formatting the<BR>
> paper size.  IIRC, CorelDraw has a CD case<BR>
> label size pre-formatted.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> J-Man wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Can anyone tell me what software is the best for creating jewel-case<BR>
labels?<BR>
> > I tried Ultimate Label Pro and it's the worst crap I've ever seen<BR>
(amidst<BR>
> > generating several ERRORS it didn't even print correctly).<BR>
> > ___________________________________________________________<BR>
> >  J-Man<BR>
> >  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
> >  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
> >  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
> >  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
> > ___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:25:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> someone wrote<BR>
>>>> do you think the Zhodani are a bit like the French in the<BR>
>>>> fact that they don't know how to drink beer,<BR>
><BR>
>> from canon we know that the average Zhodani Noble is arrogant, so<BR>
>> lets expand upon this a bit & add in other things.  Like hairy women (could<BR>
>> this be why the Zhodani have less births?) & the fact that they do not know<BR>
>> how to drink beer (come-on, they live in a society that is a police state,<BR>
>> they go for the hard stuff, not beer.).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure if the Zhodani go for alcohol at all.<BR>
><BR>
> "Tell me Citizen why do you feel the need to alter your brain<BR>
> chemistry with poisons? Wait here while I go get someone to help <BR>
> you with this problem."<BR>
><BR>
> A month later the Zhodani reappears and now he would never think<BR>
> of wanting anything stronger than a nice lemonade...<BR>
<BR>
I'm not so sure. As I recall *all* known human cultures have had at<BR>
least limited use of alcohol or other intoxicants/hallucingens. And as<BR>
long as it stays *limited* it's not a problem. <BR>
<BR>
This argues that there's some basic "need" for such altered states, at<BR>
least occasionally. <BR>
<BR>
I expect that the zhodani would treat *additicive* behaviors. But the<BR>
occasional drinker, or pot smoker (or whatever the equivalent might be)<BR>
would be ok, until he let it start interfering with other aspects of<BR>
life.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I can see them being more worried about someone who *never* drank<BR>
or used. That can be just a case of not caring for the stuff. Or rather<BR>
frequently it can be a symptom of a need to "always be in control".<BR>
Which can lead to some nasty problems.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:39:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone given any thought to the haute cuisine (or 'delicacies') of the 3I.<BR>
> What do wealthy nobles serve when the want to impress their friends? filet<BR>
> of Harp's Grunsblatter beast, pat=E9 of tree-rat bloof organ, or perhaps a<BR>
> nice mold of jellied Arcturan termite tongues.<BR>
<BR>
Earth delicaies that ought to give you an idea:<BR>
<BR>
Witchety grubs (think large white, non-fuzzy caterpiller, or overgrown<BR>
		maggots) <BR>
????		some sort of critter in the south seas that "spawns" be<BR>
                releasing what look like giant gummy worms (except<BR>
                shinier and *really* iridescent), but are more the<BR>
		consistency of jellyfish<BR>
honey		stored regurgitated secretions of an insect (check out<BR>
                "A Civil Campaign" by Bujold for a similar product that<BR>
                meets with a lot of resistance from some folks because<BR>
                it is "bug vomit")<BR>
truffles	parasitic fungal growths<BR>
oysters         especially on the half shell. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And heres a popular food *group*, described as if buy an outsider:<BR>
<BR>
sections of intestine stuffed with a paste made of ground up scraps,<BR>
organ meats, fat, etc....<BR>
<BR>
What is it? Sausage, salami, baloney, liverwurst, etc. Also hot dogs,<BR>
weiners, and the like. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:07:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 13:34 -0400 20/5/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 10:58 AM 5/20/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression<BR>
> >that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
><BR>
>Indeed, I got the impression that most Zhodani are fairly peaceful, nice<BR>
>folks.  Of course, the ones we meet in our games are usually military, so<BR>
>they're a little different.<BR>
<BR>
That's the impression I had from the Alien Modules, GT AR1 and the <BR>
various MT articles. Excessive arrogance would IMO be treated, as it <BR>
is not in the interest of the people and opposes their philosophy of <BR>
Tavrziansh.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you were brought up on a diet of Imperial Holo-vids <BR>
about the evil, mind raping Joes then you may well have the opinion <BR>
that they are arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
IMO the Driantia Zhdantia would probably be a nice place to live.<BR>
<BR>
>Wasn't it one of the Keith brothers who wrote a piece by a Zhodani<BR>
>ambassador for JTAS?<BR>
<BR>
Not sure - I can remember a K'Kree one. If you've got a reference I'd <BR>
be interested in seeing the article.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:00:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 13:34 -0400 20/5/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>Rommel's forces were experienced regulars, the newly arrived Americans were<BR>
>National Guardsmen who had never heard a shot fired in anger.  Of course<BR>
>our early experiences were bad.. it also didn't help that we were still<BR>
>using the M3 Stuart as a MBT.<BR>
<BR>
I think the things that annoyed him were (1) complaints about the <BR>
conditions (which he'd been used to for a while, especially poor <BR>
supply issues) and (2) a particular incident involving an emplaced <BR>
group of German 88 mm artillery.<BR>
<BR>
My grandfather's unit had been involved in trying to take a ridge for <BR>
a number of days (he was in the armoured cars supporting the attack), <BR>
and they were told to stand too and let the US units take it. I <BR>
suspect that some of the exchanges between his unit and the US unit <BR>
had not gone well (the kind of stand aside and we'll do the job) and <BR>
then their attack was knocked back, and the fighter aircraft (I think <BR>
he said Mustangs) were chewed up by the 88 mms. He ended up back on <BR>
the attack.<BR>
<BR>
  I think this flavoured his view somewhat, although I think that the <BR>
real issue was a degree of naivety amongst the US troops. If they <BR>
were newly deployed National Guard units, that would explain the <BR>
situation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:33:08 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
"Vincent P. Runci" wrote:<BR>
> By the way, in my old TU, there was a much much lower ratio of officers to<BR>
> enlisted.  We even ran a few games where the PCs were NCOs.<BR>
<BR>
In my current TU out of 12 players two are officers and three are NCOs<BR>
the rest are lower enlisted.  To me, that ratio still seems very high<BR>
even if they are on small ships.<BR>
<BR>
I would say a realistic ratio would be one officer to every 40 enlisted<BR>
and one NCO to every eight lower enlisted - so long as you use that as a<BR>
guideline and not a hard set rule.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:51:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Although I haven't tried all of these, some of the interesting ones<BR>
> are those that can kill you if not prepared exactly right. Then there<BR>
> are the delicacies that can seriously injure if not kill you just<BR>
> catching them.<BR>
<BR>
> Rattlesnake for instance... Tastes like chicken...Sort of.<BR>
> And there's a particular kind of fish that if it's not cleaned just<BR>
> right (I forget what it's called) will poison you if you eat it.<BR>
<BR>
Fugu. There's a small organ that contains a neurotoxin, and if it is<BR>
nicked while removing it, it may contaminate the rest of the fish with<BR>
enough to kill you. But even with it removed, there's a tiny bit of the<BR>
toxin in *all* of the fish. Enough to give a sort of tingling<BR>
sensation, or so I'm told.<BR>
<BR>
> There are probably more of these types of fare in the world.<BR>
<BR>
Stinging nettles. They have to be cooked in several changes of water so<BR>
that the formic acid (and the microscopic silica needles that inject<BR>
it) are gone. Good source of vitamin C, though.<BR>
<BR>
I recall a lecture from a survival school instructor who told us about<BR>
the time he prepared some nettles and got distracted and forgot to<BR>
change the water. He took a mouthful, chewed and swallowed, was<BR>
reaching for a second mouthful when this pins and needles sensation<BR>
started in his mouth, and advanced down his throat and to his stomach.<BR>
*Very* uncomfortable half hour until it went away...<BR>
<BR>
Manioc. It's a staple in a number of countries. You mash up this root,<BR>
place the mash in a cloth bag and rinse several times until the water<BR>
runs clear. Then the mash gets used as a sort of flour or dough to make<BR>
something somehere between tortillas and flatbread. <BR>
<BR>
The liquid is quite poisonous if ingested. Lord only knows *how* they<BR>
learned the stuff was edible. My guess is that they were harvesting the<BR>
stuff to use the *poison* (which may be rotenone or something similar),<BR>
and they didn't dispose of the "spent" mash carefully and a pig or a<BR>
small child found it and ate some. When it didn't even get sick,<BR>
someone got curious.<BR>
<BR>
> Try Thragar eye stalks... I hear they are fantastic with a red sauce.<BR>
> This is one of those that will eat you if you don't eat it first.<BR>
<BR>
How about some sort of critter with a sting. Say a *delicious* critter<BR>
much like a *large* scorpion (say, big enough to be a couple of good<BR>
bites). Call it a "<planet name> rock scorpioid" (scorp-ee-oyd)<BR>
<BR>
They place a tank of them in the center of the table. You reach in with<BR>
tongs and try to grasp the stinger. You lift them up by that and lower<BR>
the body into your mouth and bite to seperate it from the tail, then<BR>
chew away.<BR>
<BR>
At least that's the "wimp" way. And for <sneer> *tourists*, they seal<BR>
the stingers in a ball of quick-setting plastic. But "real men" reach<BR>
into the tank barehanded and grab the tail just below the stinger. <BR>
<BR>
If you get stung, there's as much as 30 seconds to inject the<BR>
anti-venom... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the fun when a drunk PC orders "the specialty of the house" and<BR>
*that* is what shows up!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:15:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Do you actually ever read history books ????!!!! Lend-Lease referred<BR>
>> to the power given to the US President to Lend or lease US equipment<BR>
>> as he saw fit. I'll explain it using FDRs words to explain it to the<BR>
>> US people "When my neighbour's house is burning I do not say "This<BR>
>> hose cost me $50", I say "Here, use my hose, bring it back when you<BR>
>> are finished"". I repeat again, there was no charge associated with<BR>
>> Lend-Lease (that was the whole point to it).<BR>
><BR>
> "This FDR person was not much of a businessman. When houses <BR>
> are burning down I have my men go up to up to the owners of<BR>
> neighboring houses and offer to buy _their_ houses from<BR>
> them, at a tenth of market value, before they burn down too.<BR>
> Then I have my men put out the fire. This is how I got to be<BR>
> the richest man in Rome." - Crassus<BR>
><BR>
> Did you ever wonder if Crassus was a Ferengi?<BR>
<BR>
Well, let me put it these way. Guess *where* the word "crass" comes<BR>
from? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:18:31 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Music in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about falling of the discusions a while back.<BR>
<BR>
I was dealing with a flood in my basement apt.<BR>
[BTW does anybody know where I can find a good copy of the MT set<BR>
cheap :) {It's still readable but water damage was done}]<BR>
<BR>
OK so the discusions where getting a bit OT re punk but somebody<BR>
     (Sorry I did'nt right down who)<BR>
asked why Rock & Roll would be the music of the third imp.<BR>
<BR>
The short answer is that it wouldn't. Some forms of popular music will<BR>
sweep across the Imperium on a regular basis. The forms and instrumentation<BR>
may well be quite different than the forms and instruments used on earth<BR>
today. But rock is a wonderfull image for Vargr music doncha think?<BR>
The way a style of music can be the hottest thing going one week<BR>
and totally passe the next. Lots of lattitude for gaining and loosing<BR>
charisma.<BR>
<BR>
Some other musical forms will include state supported formal music<BR>
such as the epic opera "Twilight of Man" about the decline of the<BR>
Rule of Man into the long night and frequently innacessible works of art<BR>
music such as the works of Yonnii Kaaj. In particular his most famous work<BR>
"Concerto for a ship in jump" in which the audience sits arrayed on the<BR>
Power Plant Deck - Upper Level of an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser<BR>
durring the week in jump. This piece is infrequently performed do to the<BR>
length of the piece and the expense and general inavailability of AHL<BR>
cruisers to the music loving public.<BR>
<BR>
It seems likely that Solomani music will tend to follow the the forms and<BR>
scales<BR>
of Earth from antiquity but there is nothing to require other branches of<BR>
humanity<BR>
or indeed alien species from using radically different forms. Perhaps an<BR>
eleven<BR>
tone scale or a scale of notes with frequencies that increase linearly<BR>
instead of<BR>
logarithmically.<BR>
<BR>
The possibilities are endless.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 14:24:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Holovision, etc (was Re: An OT question for the Brits)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Understandable, Leonard, but I assure you there will be just one. How<BR>
> do I assure you of this - well because its a pet interest of mine and<BR>
> I keep up with the developments (well worth it, I guarantee). There<BR>
> are currently two competing technologies that could work and I have<BR>
> seen both running in test modes.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. A cylindrical tank is used with a half-spiral inner transparent<BR>
> "screen". This rotates at a hell of a lick and is lit by two<BR>
> base-mounted lasers - when the lasers cross on the spiral screen, the<BR>
> phosphor dot there lights up very briefly (a matter of nanoseconds).<BR>
> Since the spiral rotates so fast, and persistence of vision is a lot<BR>
> longer than the rotation time, that gives the impression of a "true"<BR>
> 3D representation 'inside' the cylindrical viewer.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. A standard TV screen - the one I saw was actually virtually flat,<BR>
> since the experimental gear was mounted outside the screen rather than<BR>
> at the back as in a normal TV. This lights up the screen as normal,<BR>
> but somehow (I didn't actually understand the explantation - unusal<BR>
> honesty for me that <grin>) each eye sees a slightly different image.<BR>
> It only works for a 45 degree arc in front of the screen, but they<BR>
> said they are working to expand the arc. Unlike the "tank" version, it<BR>
> was only in black and white when I saw it as well, although they say a<BR>
> colour version should be easy.<BR>
><BR>
> Both work, but I am certain that (2) will be the one to become<BR>
> popular - not because of the technology but because of the camera<BR>
> requirements. Cameras for (1) are complicated and need to _surround_<BR>
> the subject - you could actually still see some of the cameras on the<BR>
> test image. Those for (2) are just simple, standard cameras and can be<BR>
> used from "in front" of the image but need to be separated by a fair<BR>
> distance. I got the impression from the explanation that the distance<BR>
> they are separated affects the arc you can view the 3D effect from.<BR>
> The smart stuff for (2) is in image processing rather than fancy<BR>
> engineering for 3D as in (1) - and simple systems nearly always win<BR>
> out. Of course, you can't look "behind" the image, but what TV<BR>
> producer would _want_ you to be able to do that?<BR>
<BR>
I never said that HV would be *popular*. But it is *far* better than SV<BR>
for some sorts of *data* displays. Like the navigation and tactical<BR>
"plots" I mentioned. For those, you don't *need* cameras because you<BR>
are generating the data from sensor and computer data.<BR>
<BR>
SV will work far better for movie/TV type stuff. HV will be data<BR>
displays and gaming.<BR>
<BR>
Both are useful, just for different tasks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:37:22 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/20/00 at 06:05 PM,  "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Two names. Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII. For my money, Charles XII is<BR>
>> one of the top 10 generals of all time - up their with Giap, Zhukov,<BR>
>> Alexander, Julius Ceasar, Washington, Napoleon and so on.<BR>
<BR>
>Karl XII. Charles is the English form of the name, but no matter how much<BR>
>you'd like to, you don't translate names. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Wanna bet? <g>  Maybe we *shouldn't* translate names, but we do.<BR>
<BR>
>As an example, the Swedish form of the name George is Georg (pronounced<BR>
>GE-org, with both the 'g's sounding like the beginning of the word<BR>
>"genetic").<BR>
<BR>
>We don't use this name for George Washington :-)<BR>
<BR>
Ge-org, hum, that sounds an awfully lot like how we say George over here to me. The final "e" is silent, and the first "e" is barely voiced. Maybe you drag the "e" out more than we do, but both "g's" are soft.  <BR>
<BR>
Heck, the way we say George is just about the way we'd say Jorge...if the "J" was a soft "g" instead of an "h", the "g" was another soft "g", and the "e" was silent. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    that's Ear-ris the way I say it. <g><BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:42:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 20 May 2000 19:19<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/20/00 1:23 AM, legate@futureone.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
>> Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
><BR>
>These are new to me, anyone know the etymology of these terms? "Banger" for<BR>
>sausage is odd enough, but "Bubble & Squeak"? Where does that get it's<BR>
name?<BR>
>And why would one name a pastry after an amphibian?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bubble & Squeak is so called because when being cooked it bubbles and...<BR>
well... 'squeaks'. Honest!<BR>
<BR>
And Toad in the Hole is not actually a pastry as such. It is whole sausages<BR>
baked in a tray of Yorkshire Pudding batter. The batter rises and crisps<BR>
around the sausages (the toads...) leaving them to rest in indentations in<BR>
the batter pudding (the holes...).<BR>
<BR>
And it is, indeed, extremely nice.<BR>
<BR>
If you like what we British call 'sausage'.<BR>
<BR>
Of course the pinnacle of English cuisine is Spotted Dick <weg><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:02:36 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller Universities Update (was: Re: A Question of Products from  BITS)<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, what happened to the University project?<BR>
<BR>
As of right now, I have received five writeups of institutions of higher<BR>
learning:<BR>
<BR>
Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Rhylanor University<BR>
Imperial Technical Institute<BR>
Sylean Federation Vacuum Mining School<BR>
Turiikill School of Fashion and Textiles<BR>
<BR>
I'll repost my writeup of GVU, so that newcomers to the list can see<BR>
what we're talking about.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2466<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2467<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: structure comp Q/A<BR>
Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Word pronounciation with ObTrav! (Was: Sweden as world power)<BR>
Vs: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
a question about Psionics, and then a little OT rant<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
The Landgrab: Regina/Regina<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
RE: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:14:11 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
<BR>
I originally posted the following on 07 January 2000 (a couple of<BR>
revisions are incorporated into this reposted text):<BR>
<BR>
**begin transmission**<BR>
<BR>
Here's a sample write-up of a university for the "101 Schools" project. <BR>
It's based on a project in our current Traveller campaign, set just<BR>
prior to the FFW.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know what y'all think.<BR>
<BR>
School Name: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Location: Garda-Vilis (1118 Vilis/SM)<BR>
Tech Level: 11 (university equipped at 1 TL higher than world average)<BR>
Status: Private university<BR>
Degrees offered: Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctor's degrees<BR>
granted in Arts, Fine Arts, Sciences, and Engineering; professional<BR>
degrees granted in Law (JD), Medicine (MD), Xenomedicine (MDX), and<BR>
Veterinary Medicine (DVM)<BR>
Number of students/faculty: 12,400 students (9300 undergraduate), 1400<BR>
faculty<BR>
Noteworthy programs: Officer Training Corps, History<BR>
    Effects:  OTC graduates gain +1 on first promotion roll; History<BR>
majors receive +1 for admission to graduate school<BR>
Tuition and fees (average):<BR>
    Undergraduate: Cr 10,000/year<BR>
    Graduate: Cr 21,000/year<BR>
Financial aid available: Ability-based scholarships of up to Cr<BR>
4000/year (amount: Cr 1000 x [Edu-7], maximum award Cr 4000); need-based<BR>
aid available of up to Cr 5000/year (amount: Cr 1000 x [7-Soc]); OTC<BR>
participants with simultaneous membership in reserve planetary army<BR>
units are exempt from tuition and fees (note that this incurs a service<BR>
obligation after graduation in active planetary or Imperial armed forces<BR>
of four standard years)<BR>
Admission requirements: Standard (for rules version in use)<BR>
Perseverance: Standard<BR>
Game effects: Standard<BR>
Key NPCs and locations: To Be Determined<BR>
<BR>
Garda-Vilis University was established by a group of private citizens in<BR>
1097, as part of an investment and research program to uplift<BR>
Garda-Vilis' Tech Level to 11 (see Pocket Empires for tech uplift<BR>
rules).<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the term "standard" means that whatever the rules system you're<BR>
using says about college applies, in terms of admissions, perseverance,<BR>
and skill/attribute increases.  IOW, under Books 5&6, college increases<BR>
your Edu attribute, while T4 also awards various skills for time spent<BR>
in<BR>
college.  I don't know about TNE, and GT doesn't seem to address the<BR>
issue directly.  I suppose that History graduates of GVU would have a<BR>
positive Reputation among fellow historians.<BR>
<BR>
Note:  The references to tuition and fees are for characters who choose<BR>
to attend schooling post-generation.  Characters who attended college<BR>
during generation may simply indicate that they attended any given<BR>
school.<BR>
<BR>
Is there anything I need to add (besides key NPCs and locations)?<BR>
<BR>
**end transmission**<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:15:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
On 05/20/00 at 10:34 AM,  Bill <beast@aracnet.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good.  I'd take<BR>
>>a snail over haggis any day (having tried both).<BR>
<BR>
Yuck! I'll take neither if given the option.  <BR>
<BR>
>>Ok, the French eat some weird things, but on balance I can think<BR>
>>of dozens of good things for every weird one.  The English? what,<BR>
>>fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and squeak? toad in the<BR>
>>hole?  (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
<BR>
Can't say I care for much French or English cuisine.  Italian and<BR>
Mexican and American are my preferences.<BR>
<BR>
>>I know some of you out there eat this stuff by choice.  No wonder<BR>
>>the British forged a grand empire.  They were looking for<BR>
>>something decent to eat.  This also explains Germany's frequent<BR>
>>trips to France for take out.<BR>
<BR>
The Germans have some good dishes, deserts, and pastries.<BR>
<BR>
<Homer>  But nothing beats a good old donut.  </Homer><BR>
<BR>
>>Anyone given any thought to the haute cuisine (or 'delicacies') of<BR>
>>the 3I. What do wealthy nobles serve when the want to impress<BR>
>>their friends? filet of Harp's Grunsblatter beast, pat of<BR>
>>tree-rat bloof organ, or perhaps a nice mold of jellied Arcturan<BR>
>>termite tongues.<BR>
<BR>
So far in my games the cuisine has been pretty normal, except for a<BR>
few "shock dishes" that the PC's like to throw at each other.<BR>
<BR>
>>All you folks with steward-4, you're up.<BR>
<BR>
I can never get anyone to play a Steward-4 (or even a Steward-3).<BR>
Something about all the cooking and cleaning turns them off. <g><BR>
<BR>
>>(apologies to all the Brits out there for insulting you food.  I'm<BR>
>>sure you make something tastey.  It's just that nothing<BR>
>>immediately comes to mind.)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, fish and chips (without the vinegar) is pretty good.  Of<BR>
course, I think just about anything fried and involving potatoes is<BR>
good.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
    a man of simple tastes<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:37:17 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: structure comp Q/A<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Does structure comp ever become a more cost effective<BR>
> construction material than wood or stone? For that matter,<BR>
> is there any cost effective construction material usefull for<BR>
> residential home construction?<BR>
> <BR>
> As I understand it wood and stone are .001Mcr per M3.<BR>
> Structure Comp at .040Mcr per M3. You really would'nt<BR>
> want to build a home at an extra .039Mcr per M3, would<BR>
> you? :-I<BR>
> <BR>
Don't forget that a 1 cm thickness of structurecomp (hereafter SC) has<BR>
three times the toughness of 1 cm thickness of heavy wood.  Since<BR>
toughness is not linear (CSC, page 56), a building made of 1 cm thick SC<BR>
is as tough as one made of 27.9 cm thick heavy wood.  Thus, for every<BR>
m^3 of SC, you would need 27.9 m^3 of wood, which reduces wood's cost<BR>
effectiveness significantly.  This ratio is more-or-less accurate for<BR>
other thicknesses/toughnesses.<BR>
<BR>
Also, since SC is both strong and light, it's easier to prefab building<BR>
sections out of SC than it would be to do so out of wood.  This would<BR>
probably make SC buildings actually cheaper than wood.  (Think of<BR>
something as light and transportable as a TL 7 mobile home, yet as<BR>
sturdy [when properly anchored] as a traditional wood house.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 19:43:45 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Electrostatic Armor<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snips discussion of electrostatic armor>><BR>
> <BR>
> What GTL would this be? Does it not exist in GT? It would seem to be an<BR>
> absolutely mandatory device for BD troops and even just normal infantry.<BR>
<BR>
One problem with that:  the health hazard.  From CSC, page 58:<BR>
<BR>
"The field extends a few cm from the vehicle, and the interaction of the<BR>
field with human hemoglobin is sufficient to instantly coagulate any<BR>
body part touching a shielded vehicle (1D lethal injury)...."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:48:42 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<snip><BR>
> Actually, fish and chips (without the vinegar) is pretty good.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris, now I understand that Heresy truly permeated every cell of your body!<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
[shakes head in disbelief...]<BR>
<BR>
Lord knows what you think of mushy peas and tartare sauce... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:04:06 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Word pronounciation with ObTrav! (Was: Sweden as world power)<BR>
<BR>
Eris replied to my post:<BR>
> >Karl XII. Charles is the English form of the name, but no matter how much<BR>
> >you'd like to, you don't translate names. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Wanna bet? <g>  Maybe we *shouldn't* translate names, but we do.<BR>
<BR>
Whatever :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Ge-org, hum, that sounds an awfully lot like how we say George over here to me. The final<BR>
> "e" is silent, and the first "e" is barely voiced. Maybe you drag the "e" out more than we<BR>
> do, but both "g's" are soft.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't phrase myself clearly, but never mind... the English and the<BR>
Swedish versions of the name are pronounced very differently. I just<BR>
can't write phonetics in ASCII, and it wouldn't matter, since you silly<BR>
Americans don't use the same system for phonetics as we Europeans do<BR>
anyway  *g*<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: A culture that translates names to its own language in<BR>
corresponding ways could cause some interesting problems for the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
"Who the h##l is this Lord Klonn person anyway?"<BR>
<BR>
A free near-C cookie to the first person answers the question correctly<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
/Spacejens<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:14:53 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 7:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Not exactly true. The above-mentioned Karl XII made a *huge* tactical<BR>
> mistake which killed lots of his men. He was then hit by an improvised<BR>
> bullet (a button) in the back of his head...<BR>
> <BR>
Was this the famous "magic bullet" of swedish history. (I'm not sure I remember it right...)<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:22:47 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> Let me know what y'all think.<BR>
<BR>
You asked for it...  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I will address only the points where I have anything interesting to say.<BR>
Note that I assume that this school is sort of a template. I do feel<BR>
that some headers are either too narrow or too weakly described.<BR>
<BR>
> Status: Private university<BR>
<BR>
There should be a description of the different types somewhere in the<BR>
book.<BR>
<BR>
> Degrees offered: Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctor's degrees<BR>
<BR>
Since I am Swedish, I don't know the meanings of these titles (the only<BR>
one of those we use is Doctor). True, I could look them up in a<BR>
dictionary of education terms, but I would like to avoid that when<BR>
reading a RPG supplement.<BR>
<BR>
Descriptions of the degrees (approximate study time, number of students<BR>
towards each degree, etc) should be included, either on a per-university<BR>
basis or in a separate section of the book.<BR>
<BR>
> Number of students/faculty: 12,400 students (9300 undergraduate), 1400<BR>
> faculty<BR>
<BR>
What exactly is an undergraduate student BTW? And what is a faculty<BR>
student?<BR>
<BR>
> Tuition and fees (average):<BR>
>     Undergraduate: Cr 10,000/year<BR>
>     Graduate: Cr 21,000/year<BR>
<BR>
Some universities do not have fees. The university is paid from some<BR>
other source (the state or some large corporation). The university<BR>
accepts a number of students each year (the ones with the best grades of<BR>
all applicants).<BR>
<BR>
In case you didn't guess, this is the case in Sweden :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Financial aid available: Ability-based scholarships of up to Cr<BR>
> 4000/year (amount: Cr 1000 x [Edu-7], maximum award Cr 4000); need-based<BR>
<BR>
Financial aid could also be offered by an outside source (the state, a<BR>
corporation, an organization for educating the public, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
> Key NPCs and locations: To Be Determined<BR>
<BR>
In addition to describing the actual leadership of the university,<BR>
describing one or two flavor-NPCs that the PCs might come in contact<BR>
with would be nice.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting people might include that astrophysics weirdo with lots of<BR>
interesting ideas, the leader of the underground psionic students'<BR>
movement, the housekeeper with keys to every room in the buildings...<BR>
<BR>
In a similiar vein, locations might include the cafeteria and the<BR>
construction site in addition to the obvious places.<BR>
<BR>
> Is there anything I need to add (besides key NPCs and locations)?<BR>
<BR>
Notable events: The annual fireworks design competition, the student<BR>
resistance movement during the war fifteen years ago, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Famous ex-students: Inventors, writers, officers, etc. People you are<BR>
likely to see pictures of in the university... or get angry looks if you<BR>
ask about.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 21:19:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Jeffrey D. Greenly" <jgreenly@intelos.net><BR>
Subject: a question about Psionics, and then a little OT rant<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone done any serious work on expanding the Psionics list in CT? Is<BR>
there a canonical reference that I might take a look at? I hate using<BR>
Special as a catchall and thought that I might post a few things, but I<BR>
don't want to duplicate effort.<BR>
<BR>
The rest of this post is mildly OT. Delete it if you don't want to read it.<BR>
<BR>
Jeff<BR>
By the way, if you want to respond, I'd prefer to correspond off-list.<BR>
<BR>
greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu<BR>
<BR>
OR<BR>
<BR>
jgreenly@intelos.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now, just a word in defense of my home state of West Virginia<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
<BR>
> >    New Zealand, where men are men, women are bored, & the sheep are<BR>
scared<BR>
> >silly.<BR>
><BR>
> Sounds like West Virginia. Of course there the sheep also have cute<BR>
> names.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
<BR>
Actually, mostly cattle in West Virginia. Sorry to bust up any fantasies,<BR>
there, folks. True, large portions of West Virginia are unspoiled by<BR>
mega-highways and shopping malls and way too many yuppies, but then, we<BR>
kinda like it that way. Surprisingly enough, we are the home for<BR>
NIOSH/ALOSH, a NASA facility, WVUH, which is one of the premier cancer<BR>
research hospitals in the country, several DOE research facilities, the FBI<BR>
fingerprint labs, and my alma mater, West Virginia University. We'd welcome<BR>
anyone to come and visit, do some white-water rafting, skiing, off-roading,<BR>
hunting and fishing, enjoy a theatre presentation, or perhaps take a long<BR>
walk in some of the last unspoiled old growth forests on the East Coast.<BR>
Just make sure you pack up your garbage and leave when you're done.<BR>
<BR>
And finally, a brief note on inter-service rivalries.<BR>
<BR>
I was once a sailor in the United States Navy. I am proud of that fact. Some<BR>
of the greatest guys I ever met were Marines, and I wouldn't do their jobs<BR>
for all the tea in China. And not one of them would have done mine.  Did we<BR>
kid each other? Sure, but when the chips were down, we all worked together<BR>
for a common goal. That's what combined arms is all about. Marine and Navy<BR>
pilots fly off Navy decks, against targets that have been softened up for<BR>
them by Tomahawk missles fired from Navy ships. Marines ride to battle in<BR>
Navy hulls and have Navy medics. The Marines provide FObs for Navy fire, and<BR>
when the Marines are pinned on a beach by enemy arty, who do you think<BR>
provides counterbattery fire? Marine officers are trained by the Naval<BR>
Academy. The Marine Corps could not do their job without the Navy, and the<BR>
Navy can't do their job without naval infantry which is what a Marine is. To<BR>
say that the Navy is a taxi service is arrogant and shows ignorance. In the<BR>
community of warriors, we all have different roles to play, none more or<BR>
less important than the other. In the Traveller Universe, I'm sure that the<BR>
logistical complexities of operating a force a minimum of a week away from<BR>
support are nightmarish, and require a close relationship between the<BR>
services. I'm sure that there are rivalries, there must be in any<BR>
organization with esprit de corps, but working together saves lives, and<BR>
that's what it's all about, in the end.<BR>
<BR>
End of rants.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:28:14 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> Was this the famous "magic bullet" of swedish history. (I'm not sure I remember it<BR>
> right...)<BR>
<BR>
The below might not be correct, but there is no way we will ever know<BR>
for sure.<BR>
<BR>
He got hit in the back of his head while standing in a trench looking<BR>
towards the enemy. Either it was a "magic bullet," or some of his own<BR>
men shot him.<BR>
<BR>
Since his army has suffered large losses because of him, I know what I<BR>
believe...<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:31:47 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
<BR>
	What is the URL for this?  I can't seem to trip over it on the <BR>
website.  Thanks.<BR>
	<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt	<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:55:31 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: The Landgrab: Regina/Regina<BR>
<BR>
At last, we have completed our web site with the Regina/Regina Landgrab<BR>
information! <BR>
<BR>
It has sections on "The Cannon" (all versions of Traveller), the Astrography<BR>
of the system, Customs, Geography, History (merely a chronological list of<BR>
events IMTU after the end of the CT cannon), Politics, Press (five versions<BR>
of the Regina news), Starport (Regina Up Port), Tourism, and a Who's who on<BR>
Regina. We have the most information posted in the Press, Starport and Who's<BR>
Who sections. <BR>
<BR>
See all this and more at: www.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
- -Cheryl Glenn <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:00:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> This is very close to the story in David Drake's "The Forlorn Hope"<BR>
>> (the same or very similar universe as his Hammer's Slammers stories).<BR>
>><BR>
>> The merc company works for the existing government of a small (Czech-<BR>
>> colonized) planet which is fighting a religious insurgency (civil war<BR>
>> I suppose really).  The government unit they're attached to is about to<BR>
>> be overrun and sells out the merc unit to save their hides as the zealots<BR>
>> really wanted to execute the offworlders* The merc unit escapes the<BR>
>> initial entrapment and has to fight it's way across the continent to<BR>
>> get to a safe government stronghold and offworld.<BR>
>> (That's effectively the blurb on the book, so no spoilers.)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Rob<BR>
>><BR>
>> * In the first chapter, the mercs end up shooting down a starship making<BR>
>> bombing runs with some kind of field artillery piece.<BR>
>> This of course PO'd the zealots to no end.<BR>
><BR>
>They are so PO'ed because starships are ****EXPENSIVE****. And since<BR>
>there was only one weapon on planet that *could* have made the shot, it<BR>
>makes things much simpler than usual.<BR>
><BR>
>Heck, even the US would be rather eager to "deal with" the folks who<BR>
>blew away a several *billion* dollar ship/plane if it was *certain*<BR>
>which (small group) had done it.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
As I recall the problem was that the fanatical government had ordered all<BR>
forces under their command to fight to the last man. Naturally the Merc unit<BR>
was not interested in continuing the fight beyond a reasonable point. Since<BR>
both sides were also executing prisoners this put the mercs in a rather bad<BR>
position.<BR>
<BR>
When it was all over and the unit reached the "safety" of the lines of their<BR>
own side their employers attempted to execute the merc commander because he<BR>
had abandoned his position in the face of overwhelming odds and had<BR>
successfully lead his troops in a tactical retreat rather than letting them<BR>
all die in a futile defense. The other merc companies in the countries<BR>
employ disagreed with the legality of this "to the last man" order and<BR>
exerted pressure on the government to allow the unit to leave the planet.<BR>
<BR>
P.S. As I recall the unit was some kind of anti-armor unit. The spacecraft<BR>
was not a combat ship, but was "rigged" as a surprise asset. They took the<BR>
ship out with a field piece meant for use against tanks.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:10:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
> >The English? what, fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and<BR>
> >squeak? toad in the hole? (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Actually, all of that is some good eating.<BR>
>     Fish & Chips....you get that when you go to Long John Silvers, it is<BR>
> batter-dipped, fried white fish & french fries.<BR>
>     Bangers & Mash...Sausage & Mashed Potatoes.<BR>
>     Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
<BR>
Bubble & Squeak is made with _leeks_, and doesn't have mashed potatoes in<BR>
it.<BR>
Though it may contain bts of potatoe or be served _with_ mashed potatoes.<BR>
<BR>
>     Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
<BR>
The last two usually have sausage meat ( or some form of meat anyway ) in<BR>
them as well.<BR>
The meat is the  "Toad" in "Toad-in-the-hole".<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest that there are better delicacies available from the UK as<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
Steak & kidney Pie, Cornish pasties, Scotch eggs, Welsh rarebit, various<BR>
breads,<BR>
apple turnovers, even pork pies (as long as you avoid the ones sold in<BR>
railway cafeterias).<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:14:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> At 15:50 -0400 19/5/00, Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> wrote:<BR>
> > By WWII they had<BR>
> >learned quite a bit, but in their first AO (Africa) they took severe<BR>
> >beatings as well, at least in the first couple of battles.<BR>
><BR>
> My late grandfather, who served in the Eighth Army in Africa, gave me<BR>
> some anecdotal evidence on that. Having seen initial US operations he<BR>
> held Rommel's forces in far more respect than his US allies.<BR>
><BR>
> This is not meant to be knocking the US list members or those who<BR>
> died on either side, just an observation that I had heard similar<BR>
> stories to Volker from someone I trust.<BR>
<BR>
Don't worry, anyone who has actually studied military history is aware of<BR>
how poorly the US performed in Tunisia.<BR>
<BR>
For anyone who has not, go look up the battle of Kasserine Pass.<BR>
<BR>
To their credit, they learned pretty quickly after that.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 21:39:09 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> > Let me know what y'all think.<BR>
> <BR>
> You asked for it...  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I will address only the points where I have anything interesting to say.<BR>
> Note that I assume that this school is sort of a template. I do feel<BR>
> that some headers are either too narrow or too weakly described.<BR>
<BR>
This is, indeed, a _draft_ template, for which I seek feedback.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Status: Private university<BR>
> <BR>
> There should be a description of the different types somewhere in the<BR>
> book.<BR>
<BR>
There will be, assuming that this makes it into "book" status.  (My<BR>
current plans are to collect a number of schools, put the whole thing<BR>
into PDF format, and have it available as a free download on one or more<BR>
of the major Traveller sites [Freelance Traveller, BITS, and anyone else<BR>
who wants to host it].  Of course, all submissions will be fully<BR>
credited.)<BR>
<BR>
I can think of four basic types of schools: public (owned and operated<BR>
by some government entity), private (non-profit), commercial (privately<BR>
owned, for-profit), and corporate (operated by a corporation<BR>
specifically to train current or future employees).  Are there other<BR>
types that I have left out?<BR>
> <BR>
> > Degrees offered: Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctor's degrees<BR>
> <BR>
> Since I am Swedish, I don't know the meanings of these titles (the only<BR>
> one of those we use is Doctor). True, I could look them up in a<BR>
> dictionary of education terms, but I would like to avoid that when<BR>
> reading a RPG supplement.<BR>
<BR>
Noted.  Associate: 2 years; Bachelor: 4 years; Master: 2 years<BR>
(cumulative with bachelor's); Doctor: 2 years (cumulative with<BR>
master's).  Note that, except for the associate degree, these correspond<BR>
with the college and graduate school terms in T4.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have any ideas for Vilani (or other) equivalents?<BR>
> <BR>
> Descriptions of the degrees (approximate study time, number of students<BR>
> towards each degree, etc) should be included, either on a per-university<BR>
> basis or in a separate section of the book.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Number of students/faculty: 12,400 students (9300 undergraduate), 1400<BR>
> > faculty<BR>
> <BR>
> What exactly is an undergraduate student BTW? And what is a faculty<BR>
> student?<BR>
<BR>
An undergraduate student is one who has not yet received a bachelor's (4<BR>
year) degree, while a graduate student is one who is working on a<BR>
master's degree or doctorate.  Also, that should be "faculty member."<BR>
> <BR>
> > Tuition and fees (average):<BR>
> >     Undergraduate: Cr 10,000/year<BR>
> >     Graduate: Cr 21,000/year<BR>
> <BR>
> Some universities do not have fees. The university is paid from some<BR>
> other source (the state or some large corporation). The university<BR>
> accepts a number of students each year (the ones with the best grades of<BR>
> all applicants).<BR>
> <BR>
> In case you didn't guess, this is the case in Sweden :-)<BR>
<BR>
Quite so.  Different schools can have different fee structures (or, as<BR>
in Sweden, none at all).  This one charges, but is not intended to make<BR>
a profit for its owners.<BR>
<BR>
As a general guideline for those who wish to submit schools, I suggest<BR>
that schools that follow the Swedish model have more difficult die rolls<BR>
for admission and/or perseverance.  This should also apply for schools<BR>
that give some sort of game benefit (such as GVU's OTC promotion bonus<BR>
and History major bonus).  On the other end of the spectrum, there may<BR>
well be schools that are little more than "diploma mills", with easier<BR>
admissions, but game _penalties_, compared to the generic school<BR>
described in CT and T4.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Financial aid available: Ability-based scholarships of up to Cr<BR>
> > 4000/year (amount: Cr 1000 x [Edu-7], maximum award Cr 4000); need-based<BR>
> <BR>
> Financial aid could also be offered by an outside source (the state, a<BR>
> corporation, an organization for educating the public, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
I didn't break down the sources of financial aid, for just such a<BR>
reason.  Unless the aid comes with strings (such as service<BR>
obligations), the player probably doesn't need a detailed breakdown of<BR>
the source of aid.  As a general rule, assume that need-based aid comes<BR>
from either the school or the government, while ability-based aid comes<BR>
from either the school or private sources.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Key NPCs and locations: To Be Determined<BR>
> <BR>
> In addition to describing the actual leadership of the university,<BR>
> describing one or two flavor-NPCs that the PCs might come in contact<BR>
> with would be nice.<BR>
> <BR>
> Interesting people might include that astrophysics weirdo with lots of<BR>
> interesting ideas, the leader of the underground psionic students'<BR>
> movement, the housekeeper with keys to every room in the buildings...<BR>
> <BR>
> In a similiar vein, locations might include the cafeteria and the<BR>
> construction site in addition to the obvious places.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Is there anything I need to add (besides key NPCs and locations)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Notable events: The annual fireworks design competition, the student<BR>
> resistance movement during the war fifteen years ago, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Famous ex-students: Inventors, writers, officers, etc. People you are<BR>
> likely to see pictures of in the university... or get angry looks if you<BR>
> ask about.<BR>
<BR>
All good ideas.  Of course, given the location of this particular<BR>
school, the student body would be rather unlikely to protest Imperial<BR>
involvement in the 5FW....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
When I get some more time, I'll try to flesh out the NPCs and<BR>
locations.  (I haven't worked on this since January.)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the valuable feedback!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2467<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 21 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2468<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
Re: The great leap forward.<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
RE: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
RE: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re : Electrostatic Armour<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
Re: Music in the 3I<BR>
Game Report: Battle Rider<BR>
Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
Re : Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re : Electrostatic armour<BR>
The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Boarding action (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:49:10 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  I better finish up my notes on G-V/Tanoose for<BR>
the TML landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:49:18 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The great leap forward.<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
> >>Not so. O'Brian was a full lieutenant (check his collar). 'Chief' was a<BR>
> >>post, not a rank.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In his first few seasons, he was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, later<BR>
> >becoming some sort of Warrant officer on DS9.<BR>
><BR>
> I remember browsing through an ST:TNG episode guide of my sister's. The sort<BR>
> that contains loads of trivia about each episode. In connection with one<BR>
> episode, the guide mentions that O'Brian's _title_ was 'Transporter Chief',<BR>
> but that he is a lieutenant, not a CPO, and it points out that he does,<BR>
> indeed, wear lieutenant's pips on his collar. I haven't checked for myself.<BR>
> Maybe the guide is wrong. Maybe they changed it for DS9. But as I said,<BR>
> check his collar if you don't believe me.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC O'Brian got a battlefield comission somewhere along the line...never went<BR>
to the Acadamy and may never rise above Lt. but is so good at his job that<BR>
sombody promoted him and it stuck.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:58:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
OT, but seeing as I have recently been lecturing on this, and it's a very<BR>
commmon nmis-undertanding...<BR>
<BR>
> I agree - HTML standards are for display _formatting_ (presentation,<BR>
<BR>
Nope, HTML was originally designed to be a simplified SGML designed for<BR>
_structuring_ docuuments, not laying them out.<BR>
<BR>
Too many people who did not understand that layout should be divorced from<BR>
content & structure got involved in the later evoloution of HTML, adding<BR>
layout commands to the language and thus ruining it.<BR>
<BR>
CSS is the "correct" way to layout HTML documents, though Netscape<BR>
effectively destroyed it's usefulness by refusing to implement it properly.<BR>
<BR>
Microsoft, in fact, have implemented CSS much more accurately than Netscape.<BR>
Unfortunately they also added their own DHTML extensions.<BR>
<BR>
> not for applications) but browser applications are not _intended_ to<BR>
> use HTML standards. They are intended to use _Internet_ standards,<BR>
> including XHTML, CSSL, XML and ECMAScript, to name but a few.<BR>
<BR>
This can't be argued with any authority, as there are _no_ standards on what<BR>
a _browser_ should do.<BR>
<BR>
Also, of the languages you name above, only ECMAScript can actually be<BR>
considered a _standard_ as it is the only one released by an official<BR>
standards body.<BR>
<BR>
As neither Netscape's JavaScript nor Microsoft's JScript implement<BR>
ECMAScript properly, it's also pretty useless, unless you want to buy a<BR>
third-party scripting engine for your browser.<BR>
<BR>
The others are merely "Requests For Comments" or "Recommendations", not<BR>
standards.<BR>
<BR>
> ActiveX uses COM+ *Microsoft* standards (NOT public standards) and one of<BR>
the<BR>
> resolution judgements from the DoJ court case is that Microsoft should<BR>
> adopt (or adapt COM+ to use) DOM standards.<BR>
<BR>
Which, if true, is really quite funny, since Microsoft adopted DOM early,<BR>
their browser has better support for it than any other, and have been<BR>
pushing usage of DOM since it was first released. About the only major<BR>
company who have been doing more on this is IBM.<BR>
<BR>
Also, it would make no sense as the DOM (Document Object Model) is not a<BR>
distributed object standard such as COM, i.e: you can't replace COM with DOM<BR>
<BR>
Assuming, of course that you did mean DOM, and not CORBA or SOM, which<BR>
_are_distributed object models that could be used in place of COM<BR>
<BR>
> That would immediately mean that the simple use of ActiveX as in IE5 would<BR>
be no longer<BR>
> available.<BR>
<BR>
This, of course, will _never_ happen, not even the DOJ would be able to<BR>
stand up to the howls of the protest from the many companies currently<BR>
reliant on such software.<BR>
<BR>
> Consequently, it is shortsighted in the extreme for<BR>
> software to be written to require a *Microsoft* browser rather than a<BR>
> standard browser<BR>
<BR>
No, it is not.<BR>
If you are providing software for use only in a Microsoft environment, it is<BR>
a very good idea to re-use existing code and components.<BR>
<BR>
> - and the W3C strongly advise and support the use of<BR>
> Netscape 6 Preview Release 1 or later as the most suitable *standard*<BR>
> browser for browser applications.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it is the most suitable for testing _web-pages_.<BR>
<BR>
A web-page is _not_ a browser-based application. Most "browser-based<BR>
applications" have nothing to do with the internet or the World-Wide Web,<BR>
other than that they may use it as a communications medium.<BR>
<BR>
I fully agree that writing _web_sites_ that require IE or COM is stupid, and<BR>
limits your market (Anyone with any sense turns off IE's ability to launch<BR>
COM components while browsing anyway)<BR>
<BR>
But web-sites and browser-based  _applications_  are completely different<BR>
things.<BR>
<BR>
> Please note that I didn't start this discussion as a "Microsoft<BR>
> bashing" exercise, but because some Traveller software such as (I am<BR>
> told and will soon find out, having just dowloaded it) Heaven and<BR>
> Earth REQUIRE IE5 to run. I don't want to see any of us go to the<BR>
> effort and trouble to write this stuff for us to use in our games only<BR>
> to have the rug pulled out from under our collective feet by Microsoft<BR>
> changing its rules.<BR>
<BR>
Highly unlikely to happen. In fact the biggest complaint about MIcrosoft is<BR>
that they have _not_ changed the rules, they almost always design for<BR>
backward compatability, which is why we've had to put up with stupid<BR>
DOS-based environments for so long.<BR>
<BR>
That being said, I personally don't understand why anyone would ever write<BR>
software in Visual Basic when Java or Delphi are available. VB makes doing<BR>
anything useful so ridiculously hard,<BR>
even just reading from a binary file efficiently requires you to write a<BR>
separate DLL in C++ or a similar language.<BR>
<BR>
The object model is horrible and it's only recently (V6.0) become even<BR>
remotely object-oriented, and it still doesn't support inheritance and<BR>
polymorphism properly.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:10:41 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone tell me what software is the best for creating <BR>
> jewel-case labels?<BR>
> I tried Ultimate Label Pro and it's the worst crap I've ever seen (amidst<BR>
> generating several ERRORS it didn't even print correctly).<BR>
<BR>
I find the one in ADaptec's EasyCD Pro pretty good. <BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:09:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
> > Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
> > Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
><BR>
> These are new to me, anyone know the etymology of these terms?<BR>
> "Banger" for sausage is odd enough,<BR>
<BR>
Not really.<BR>
<BR>
There are two reason why a sausage is called a "banger".<BR>
The real one is that sausages tend to explode when you forget to prick the<BR>
skin.<BR>
<BR>
The other is that a sausage looks exactly like a, er, thingy, and what do<BR>
you do with a thingy ?  You bang 'er good an' proper like.<BR>
<BR>
>but "Bubble & Squeak"? Where does that get it's name?<BR>
<BR>
From the noises it makes as you boil it.<BR>
<BR>
> And why would one name a pastry after an amphibian?<BR>
<BR>
The pastry (and it's not a "pastry" like a Danish, usually you make one in a<BR>
roasting dish and cut it up to serve) in question contains small pieces of<BR>
sausage meat or similar. The way the pastry is cooked often causes there to<BR>
be "holes" in it, which often "end" at one of the pieces of meat, thus<BR>
reminding children of meaty creatures hiding in their dens.<BR>
<BR>
If you just make the pastry without the meat it's known as a "Yorkshire<BR>
Pudding". These sometimes are made small and served as "pastries".<BR>
Toad-in-the-hole is not.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:16:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
>>"Vincent P. Runci" wrote:<BR>
>> By the way, in my old TU, there was a much much lower ratio of officers<BR>
to<BR>
>> enlisted.  We even ran a few games where the PCs were NCOs.<BR>
<BR>
>In my current TU out of 12 players two are officers and three are NCOs<BR>
>the rest are lower enlisted.  To me, that ratio still seems very high<BR>
>even if they are on small ships.<BR>
<BR>
>I would say a realistic ratio would be one officer to every 40 enlisted<BR>
>and one NCO to every eight lower enlisted - so long as you use that as a<BR>
>guideline and not a hard set rule.<BR>
<BR>
Greetings again everyone!  Been off the list for way too long, but changed<BR>
jobs, moved, went to war, got a new computer, lost all my old email and<BR>
links etc, but I am back now.<BR>
I am stepping into the string in the middle so hope I don't overstep.<BR>
<BR>
I think the officer/enlisted make-up would really depend on what type of<BR>
force you are talking about.  An example from my own experience being a<BR>
flight officer for the US Air Force it that the majority of crew members on<BR>
Air Force jets are officers with enlisted making up the periferral jobs not<BR>
directely associated with flying the aircraft or navigating etc.  My<BR>
aircraft is the KC-135 and has traditionally been a 4 person aircraft with 3<BR>
being officers.  We are about to do away with the navigator position<BR>
altogether and I know that many of the transport aircraft use an enlisted<BR>
person as the flight engineer.  This leads to a whole other area of<BR>
discussion that I can't remeber if its ever been covered(probably so since<BR>
every other topic imaginable has been coverered 8^>) but it seems most epic<BR>
Sci-Fi uses Nautical terms for rank and crew position and title, and not Air<BR>
Force.  Not suprising really since the US Air Force doesn't have a good<BR>
track record with traditions, change being the only constant, but I do know<BR>
that at least in the United States the AIr Force is taking the lead, not the<BR>
navy, with Space Command et al, although its all rocket science at this<BR>
point.  8^>   Surely the RAF has some great traditions at least.  Not sure<BR>
what this has any real bearing on projecting into the future what things<BR>
will be called etc, but I am still partial to Air Force terminology,<BR>
naturally.<BR>
Glad to be back on the list!<BR>
<BR>
Warmest Regards!<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:09:09 +1000<BR>
From: "robocon" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Electrostatic Armour<BR>
<BR>
John Groth (Black Ice) wrote :-<BR>
> One problem with that:  the health hazard.  From CSC, page 58:<BR>
><BR>
> "The field extends a few cm from the vehicle, and the interaction of the<BR>
> field with human hemoglobin is sufficient to instantly coagulate any<BR>
> body part touching a shielded vehicle (1D lethal injury)...."<BR>
<BR>
Heh. Induced currents would kill unshielded personnel at levels far less<BR>
intense than this<BR>
from either a) ventricular fibrillation (loop currents in the heart!) or b)<BR>
uncontrolled<BR>
generalised seizures (loop currents in the central nervous system).<BR>
<BR>
So it needs a bigger danger space ; I like the concept, but Greg P. always<BR>
tends to the dramatic rather than the accurate in his explanations. Writes<BR>
very well, though.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:43:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
> Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Original post by BlackIce<BR>
<BR>
> > Number of students/faculty: 12,400 students (9300 undergraduate), 1400<BR>
> > faculty<BR>
><BR>
> What exactly is an undergraduate student BTW? And what is a faculty<BR>
> student?<BR>
<BR>
I'd prefer something like "9300 lower degree - 60% middle class local, 30%<BR>
low class local, 10% off-worlders"<BR>
<BR>
> > Key NPCs and locations: To Be Determined<BR>
><BR>
> In addition to describing the actual leadership of the university,<BR>
> describing one or two flavor-NPCs that the PCs might come in contact<BR>
> with would be nice.<BR>
><BR>
> Interesting people might include that astrophysics weirdo with lots of<BR>
> interesting ideas, the leader of the underground psionic students'<BR>
> movement, the housekeeper with keys to every room in the buildings...<BR>
><BR>
> In a similiar vein, locations might include the cafeteria and the<BR>
> construction site in addition to the obvious places.<BR>
><BR>
> > Is there anything I need to add (besides key NPCs and locations)?<BR>
><BR>
> Notable events: The annual fireworks design competition, the student<BR>
> resistance movement during the war fifteen years ago, etc.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ummm, this is Garda-Vilis aka Tanoose.<BR>
<BR>
The war is *now*, ugly and ongoing.<BR>
<BR>
Think Kashmir, Vietnam, Aceh, Columbia ... you are going to have Free<BR>
Tanoose cells, Garda-Vilis Militia cells, secret police informants, and IISS<BR>
agents from Internal Mapping Branch just keeping an eye on things.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:00:42 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm.  I better finish up my notes on G-V/Tanoose for<BR>
> the TML landgrab.<BR>
> <BR>
Feel free to use GVU if you so desire.  Note that I avoided naming the<BR>
private parties who founded GVU, to make the school more YTU-friendly.<BR>
<BR>
If you _don't_ use GVU, I won't be offended.  Much.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:03:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Music in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/20/00 3:18 PM, daveshayne@email.msn.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> But rock is a wonderfull image for Vargr music doncha think?<BR>
<BR>
KoRn, Twist. It is /so/ Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:11:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Game Report: Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
The May meeting of the Bay Area Traveller gaming group was held today.<BR>
Although the attendance was somewhat less than usual, we managed to play a<BR>
game of Battle Rider, and I showed the versions of Mayday (completed) and<BR>
Fifth Frontier War (partially completed) for use with Aide de Camp. Somewhat<BR>
atypically for these meetings, absolutely no crises intervened, and the<BR>
ringing of cell phones and beeping of pagers was totally unheard. The<BR>
mechanics of BR are somewhat different from High Guard. Spinal weapons are<BR>
much less useful, while missiles are much more so.<BR>
<BR>
The opposing squadrons approached each other slowly, launching waves of<BR>
missiles and engaging the enemy ships at long range with spinal meson beams<BR>
and particle accelerators. Since all of the combatants were heavily armed<BR>
and armored battle riders, the spinal weapon was mostly ineffective, with<BR>
only one ship suffering any damage despite the multiple hits, losing only<BR>
partial life support and its artificial gravity due to a successful PA<BR>
weapon hit. Once the missiles closed, the defensive lasers and sandcasters<BR>
proved to be no match for numerous missiles, with each side losing a ship to<BR>
a "ship explodes" result.<BR>
<BR>
As the missiles were doing their damage, both sides obtained accurate sensor<BR>
readings on the opposition and realized that the inevitable result of the<BR>
engagement was a draw due to the even match of the squadrons. Realizing that<BR>
further combat would likely result in the complete destruction of both<BR>
squadrons, both sides broke of contact.<BR>
<BR>
We plan to play Battle Rider again next month, on June 17th, and then move<BR>
on to Striker, possibly in association with a Traveller game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 00:29:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I just had to drop a line to exclaim how excited I am about how much things<BR>
have improved on the Traveller front while I have been away.  I have just<BR>
spent the last probably 12 hours scouring the internet and reading about all<BR>
the great things that are happening with the game now.  Has anyone used the<BR>
GRIP http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/griptrav.html system for traveller<BR>
or have plans to its supposed to go public very soon?  Just got my new<BR>
subscription to the JTAS and updated my list subscriptions.  Any word on T5?<BR>
What is the word on the massive online RPG version of Traveller?<BR>
http://www.playnet.com/press.htm#05112<BR>
BITS is cookin and JTAS too, as well as some of the older mags are coming<BR>
back.  Its all very exciting!  Sorry if this is redundant but I have been<BR>
out of the loop for over a year.<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
talon@skyenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:32:00 +1000<BR>
From: "robocon" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> Fugu. There's a small organ that contains a neurotoxin, and if it is<BR>
> nicked while removing it, it may contaminate the rest of the fish with<BR>
> enough to kill you. But even with it removed, there's a tiny bit of the<BR>
> toxin in *all* of the fish. Enough to give a sort of tingling<BR>
> sensation, or so I'm told.<BR>
<BR>
Tetrodotoxin is concentrated in the liver, kidneys and gonads of the puffer<BR>
(toad) fish.<BR>
If the remainder of the flesh is properly prepared, the eater will get<BR>
enough of a<BR>
dose to develop paraesthesiae ('pins and needles') around the mouth and in<BR>
the fingertips.<BR>
Fun stuff.<BR>
<BR>
and (on cassava/manioc) :-<BR>
> My guess is that they were harvesting the<BR>
> stuff to use the *poison* (which may be rotenone or something similar),<BR>
<BR>
Nothing so obscure (rotenone is a pesticide which works by inhibiting the<BR>
synthesis of reducing equivalents - IIRC NAD-> NADH+). Manioc contains good<BR>
old HCN (the nitrile groups are parts of<BR>
proteins in the vegetable).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 15:32:02 +1000<BR>
From: "robocon" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Electrostatic armour<BR>
<BR>
Oops!<BR>
I should have also mentioned that the armour as described in CSC wouldn't<BR>
work all that well<BR>
in standard atmospheres.<BR>
Oxygen is paramagnetic and will be attracted into a magnetic field, nitrogen<BR>
is diamagnetic and<BR>
will be repelled.<BR>
The resultant 'breeze' may make stealthy operations impossible.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm... power the vehicle with The Abomination Known As Fusion Plus and have<BR>
a huge steam<BR>
plume plus the turbulence effect. Great. I can see some incompetent<BR>
procurement committee<BR>
saddling some poor bloody infantry with something like this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 02:40:51 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>    Actually, warfare is not about weapons, or tactics, or anything else<BR>
>like that, it is about will.<BR>
<BR>
The Japanese were willing to make a habit out of smashing manned <BR>
airplanes into our ships during WW2.  Their capital and many of their<BR>
other major cities were nearly wiped clean by massive firebombing raids.  <BR>
They were led to the surrender table by a combination of a personal<BR>
appeal from their emperor and the only wartime uses of atomic weaponry<BR>
in history. <BR>
<BR>
Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese <BR>
were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
<BR>
>  There are several examples of small nations holding off & even beating <BR>
>larger nations because the larger nations did not have the will to win.<BR>
<BR>
There are many more examples of small nations getting cowed, overrun,<BR>
and absorbed by larger nations, unless the strong-willed smaller nation<BR>
had an advantage to save itself with.  Granted, it needed the will to<BR>
discover and pursue such an advantage, but without some such advantage<BR>
all the willpower in the world is useless.<BR>
<BR>
"It is said that God is always on the side of the heaviest battalions."<BR>
               - Voltaire<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 03:00:31 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Boarding action (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>>Go ahead, sink an enemy cruiser with an assault rifle<BR>
>>during a shooting war.  Bring ten, we'll wait.<BR>
><BR>
>    Can I do it anyway I want?<BR>
<BR>
Sure.  You get up to ten men, and your choice of a transport helicopter<BR>
or a zodiac (raft with outboard motor), either within their own operational<BR>
range (go out and return) of the cruiser, and both unarmed.  Your men can <BR>
have any equipment they can carry short of nuclear explosives, but no <BR>
support is available beyond picking up your unit afterwards - a place to land<BR>
your helicopter or perhaps a sub to pick up your boat.  In either case,<BR>
the presence of the cruiser in an undamaged condition would make<BR>
picking up your people a problem.<BR>
<BR>
The cruiser is patrolling beyond the horizon of the nearest coastline,<BR>
which is itself hostile and well-patrolled.   As this is a shooting war, <BR>
expect the cruiser to be always at some elevated alert status, though<BR>
not 100% of the time at full alert.  It will, of course, have it's own <BR>
complement of marines on board, of appropriate size and capabilities for<BR>
a ship of this class.  Do not expect the cruiser to anchor  or resupply<BR>
during the time allowed for the operation.<BR>
<BR>
What's your plan?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Striker Commando ticket, anyone?  Say, a Megacorp wants to<BR>
pull a USS Maine on a balkanized planet, but the ship they want to<BR>
whack won't be conveniently in port, and has to be taken out with<BR>
local tech commandoes...<BR>
<BR>
>>Now try to assault and hold that vital coastal<BR>
>>objective with said cruiser sitting unmolested off the<BR>
>>coast.  You can't even *begin* to do your job until<BR>
>>the Navy wins at doing their's.<BR>
><BR>
>    Correct, & that is part of the support they provide to the Marines.<BR>
<BR>
"Anyone who can't do something as well as I do it is a wimp.  Anything<BR>
I can't do is stupid." - atrib. to an anonymous high school jock. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:43:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>I agree - HTML standards are for display _formatting_ (presentation,<BR>
>not for applications) but browser applications are not _intended_ to<BR>
>use HTML standards. They are intended to use _Internet_ standards,<BR>
>including XHTML, CSSL, XML and ECMAScript, to name but a few. ActiveX<BR>
>uses COM+ *Microsoft* standards (NOT public standards) and one of the<BR>
>resolution judgements from the DoJ court case is that Microsoft should<BR>
>adopt (or adapt COM+ to use) DOM standards. That would immediately<BR>
>mean that the simple use of ActiveX as in IE5 would be no longer<BR>
>available. Consequently, it is shortsighted in the extreme for<BR>
>software to be written to require a *Microsoft* browser rather than a<BR>
>standard browser - and the W3C strongly advise and support the use of<BR>
>Netscape 6 Preview Release 1 or later as the most suitable *standard*<BR>
>browser for browser applications.<BR>
<BR>
I've bite my tongue on this topic for long enough, this mail was the last<BR>
straw. In light of all this Microsoft bashing I would point out, whether<BR>
Microsoft's motives a right or wrong, that if it hadn't been for that<BR>
company the PC home market would not exist. We'd all be using Macs or,<BR>
heaven forbid, Atari STs and Amigas and the PC market would still be limited<BR>
to offices only. Until another company comes up with a COMMERCIALLY viable<BR>
OS, and no matter what the American Justice Department says, the PC market<BR>
needs Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
>Please note that I didn't start this discussion as a "Microsoft<BR>
>bashing" exercise, but because some Traveller software such as (I am<BR>
>told and will soon find out, having just dowloaded it) Heaven and<BR>
>Earth REQUIRE IE5 to run. I don't want to see any of us go to the<BR>
>effort and trouble to write this stuff for us to use in our games only<BR>
>to have the rug pulled out from under our collective feet by Microsoft<BR>
>changing its rules.<BR>
<BR>
It may not have started as a Microsoft bashing exercise, but that is exactly<BR>
what it became.<BR>
<BR>
However, I take great exception at you tone regarding the fact that my<BR>
program requires IE5. I would point out that the program does not require<BR>
IE5, but requires the SHWDCVW.DLL which forms part of that package. Users<BR>
with IE4 or IE5 will already have a copy of this DLL on their machine, but<BR>
those who favour another browser simply need to install and register the<BR>
DLL.<BR>
<BR>
Note that H&E is written for a Microsoft OS using a Microsoft programming<BR>
language. To provide the functionality that I required the only option<BR>
available to me was to use Microsoft's Internet component. If you can point<BR>
me in the direction of a VB component that  provides COM+ internet<BR>
capabilities then please do so.<BR>
<BR>
As far as putting the effort into the program, I will be the judge of that.<BR>
If you don't like my program, than as far as I'm concerned you have two<BR>
options:-<BR>
<BR>
1) Shut up and put up.<BR>
2) Don't use it.<BR>
<BR>
Its mails like these that make me wonder why I use part of my valuable free<BR>
time writing this program? Perhaps I should just abandon the project?<BR>
<BR>
However, that isn't going to happen as your opinion is in the minority.<BR>
<BR>
Topic closed.<BR>
<BR>
[If the Browser Standard debate is going to continue, I'd prefer all<BR>
reference to my program being removed from the subject line.]<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:31:23 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hmm.  I better finish up my notes on G-V/Tanoose for<BR>
> > the TML landgrab.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Feel free to use GVU if you so desire.  Note that I avoided naming the<BR>
> private parties who founded GVU, to make the school more YTU-friendly.<BR>
><BR>
> If you _don't_ use GVU, I won't be offended.  Much.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
No, I'll use it.  I'm thinking that its probably heavily sponsored<BR>
by the Pro-Vilis movement, to subtlely promote Vilisian culture,<BR>
over those bothersome Tanoosians.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:41:59 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
> > Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (repost)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Notable events: The annual fireworks design competition, the student<BR>
> > resistance movement during the war fifteen years ago, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Ummm, this is Garda-Vilis aka Tanoose.<BR>
<BR>
BtC describes big flare-ups in 1105 and 1103 with both the Sword<BR>
Worlders and the Zhodani Consulate getting involved.<BR>
<BR>
> The war is *now*, ugly and ongoing.<BR>
><BR>
> Think Kashmir, Vietnam, Aceh, Columbia ... you are going to have Free<BR>
> Tanoose cells, Garda-Vilis Militia cells, secret police informants, and IISS<BR>
> agents from Internal Mapping Branch just keeping an eye on things.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, ok.  I get the message.  GV/Tanoose moves to front burner.<BR>
I got bogged down trying to design the starports with my handy new<BR>
GT:Starports. There is a LOT of cargo going through and to GV/T.<BR>
I'm staying close to BtC, with the Imperium directly running the<BR>
largest city, with the main downport and scout base, that has half<BR>
the worlds population (450 mil in one city).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:44:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Talon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone used the<BR>
> GRIP http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/griptrav.html system for traveller<BR>
> or have plans to its supposed to go public very soon?<BR>
<BR>
At $60 bucks or whatever it was for the gamemaster part, color<BR>
me not interested.<BR>
<BR>
> What is the word on the massive online RPG version of Traveller?<BR>
> http://www.playnet.com/press.htm#05112<BR>
<BR>
It was officially announced a week ago.  Game development<BR>
is a slow process.  Best of all possible worlds: one year.<BR>
Smarter bet: 18 months, depending.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2468<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 21 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2469<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: structure comp Q/A<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
OSes was Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
OT: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
Re: Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Tank you very much (was RE: America vs Europe?)<BR>
re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 04:58:12 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Until another company comes up with a COMMERCIALLY viable<BR>
> OS, and no matter what the American Justice Department says, the PC market<BR>
> needs Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone seriously think otherwise?  The problem is despite the<BR>
relative utility of Windows and other programs, they have engaged<BR>
in a pattern of unfair trade practices that have directly put innovative<BR>
but small companies out of business permanently.  They're already<BR>
winning and they cheat.  And for that, they're being punished, not<BR>
put of business.  'Nuf said<BR>
<BR>
> It may not have started as a Microsoft bashing exercise, but that is exactly<BR>
> what it became.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing wrong with bashing microsoft.  Its the next great american<BR>
past time.<BR>
<BR>
> As far as putting the effort into the program, I will be the judge of that.<BR>
> If you don't like my program, than as far as I'm concerned you have two<BR>
> options:-<BR>
><BR>
> 1) Shut up and put up.<BR>
> 2) Don't use it.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart, you shouldn't take things so personally. All the successful<BR>
programmers I know have very thick skins.  And they need them<BR>
because many people don't phrase their constructive criticism in<BR>
the most polite terms.  But the feedback of the great unwashed<BR>
is absolutely invaluable for improving software.<BR>
<BR>
Telling people to shut up or don't use your product will keep<BR>
them away.  And you'll have no audience and no valuable<BR>
feedback.  And that would make your efforts to date a waste.<BR>
You owe it to yourself.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:57:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have a blank world template (preferably in Freehand or <BR>
Illustrator format)? Ditto for subsector and sector maps?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:39:00 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Although I haven't tried all of these, some of the interesting ones<BR>
> > are those that can kill you if not prepared exactly right. Then there<BR>
> > are the delicacies that can seriously injure if not kill you just<BR>
> > catching them.<BR>
><BR>
> > Rattlesnake for instance... Tastes like chicken...Sort of.<BR>
> > And there's a particular kind of fish that if it's not cleaned just<BR>
> > right (I forget what it's called) will poison you if you eat it.<BR>
><BR>
> Fugu. There's a small organ that contains a neurotoxin, and if it is<BR>
> nicked while removing it, it may contaminate the rest of the fish with<BR>
> enough to kill you. But even with it removed, there's a tiny bit of the<BR>
> toxin in *all* of the fish. Enough to give a sort of tingling<BR>
> sensation, or so I'm told.<BR>
><BR>
> > There are probably more of these types of fare in the world.<BR>
><BR>
> Stinging nettles. They have to be cooked in several changes of water so<BR>
> that the formic acid (and the microscopic silica needles that inject<BR>
> it) are gone. Good source of vitamin C, though.<BR>
><BR>
> I recall a lecture from a survival school instructor who told us about<BR>
> the time he prepared some nettles and got distracted and forgot to<BR>
> change the water. He took a mouthful, chewed and swallowed, was<BR>
> reaching for a second mouthful when this pins and needles sensation<BR>
> started in his mouth, and advanced down his throat and to his stomach.<BR>
> *Very* uncomfortable half hour until it went away...<BR>
><BR>
> Manioc. It's a staple in a number of countries. You mash up this root,<BR>
> place the mash in a cloth bag and rinse several times until the water<BR>
> runs clear. Then the mash gets used as a sort of flour or dough to make<BR>
> something somehere between tortillas and flatbread.<BR>
><BR>
> The liquid is quite poisonous if ingested. Lord only knows *how* they<BR>
> learned the stuff was edible. My guess is that they were harvesting the<BR>
> stuff to use the *poison* (which may be rotenone or something similar),<BR>
> and they didn't dispose of the "spent" mash carefully and a pig or a<BR>
> small child found it and ate some. When it didn't even get sick,<BR>
> someone got curious.<BR>
><BR>
> > Try Thragar eye stalks... I hear they are fantastic with a red sauce.<BR>
> > This is one of those that will eat you if you don't eat it first.<BR>
><BR>
> How about some sort of critter with a sting. Say a *delicious* critter<BR>
> much like a *large* scorpion (say, big enough to be a couple of good<BR>
> bites). Call it a "<planet name> rock scorpioid" (scorp-ee-oyd)<BR>
><BR>
> They place a tank of them in the center of the table. You reach in with<BR>
> tongs and try to grasp the stinger. You lift them up by that and lower<BR>
> the body into your mouth and bite to seperate it from the tail, then<BR>
> chew away.<BR>
><BR>
> At least that's the "wimp" way. And for <sneer> *tourists*, they seal<BR>
> the stingers in a ball of quick-setting plastic. But "real men" reach<BR>
> into the tank barehanded and grab the tail just below the stinger.<BR>
><BR>
> If you get stung, there's as much as 30 seconds to inject the<BR>
> anti-venom... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Imagine the fun when a drunk PC orders "the specialty of the house" and<BR>
> *that* is what shows up!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
crottled greeps...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:36:05 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> I can think of four basic types of schools: public (owned and operated<BR>
> by some government entity), private (non-profit), commercial (privately<BR>
> owned, for-profit), and corporate (operated by a corporation<BR>
> specifically to train current or future employees).  Are there other<BR>
> types that I have left out?<BR>
<BR>
State-owned schools: Ground forces military schools would probably be<BR>
owned by the state they're in.<BR>
<BR>
Imperial owned schools: Kind of like the corporate schools, but owned by<BR>
the Imperium (or Navy, or Scout Service, ...)<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone have any ideas for Vilani (or other) equivalents?<BR>
<BR>
As an example of a system different from the American model, I will<BR>
*briefly* describe the Swedish model.<BR>
<BR>
In Sweden, we have the following choices after basic schooling (9 years)<BR>
and gymnasium (3 years). Theoretically, only basic schooling is required<BR>
by law, but in order to get any job other than *really* simple ones<BR>
(delivering newspapers, selling gasoline, etc), you need to go on<BR>
studying (gymnasium or more).<BR>
<BR>
You choose the type of gymnasium you want to go to. Two types (Social<BR>
science and Technical/Scientific science) are intended as preparation<BR>
for higher studies, while the other types are preparation for some field<BR>
of working expertise (Electrician, Construction Worker, ...)<BR>
<BR>
Gymnasiums, and all other forms of education after that, have admission<BR>
based on the grades from previous levels. Some specialized schools might<BR>
either count the grades differently (double the importance of some<BR>
grades) or complement the grades with interviews and/or skill tests<BR>
(which increase your effective grade by some specified ammount).<BR>
<BR>
In order to keep studying after gymnasium, you either have to graduate<BR>
from one of the study-preparing gymnasiums, or gain an equal education<BR>
from some other source (evening courses etc). Everything described below<BR>
assume that any of these hold true.<BR>
<BR>
An easy way out is to become a "gymnasium engineer." This is a special<BR>
one-year program offered to most Technical/Scientific gymnasium<BR>
students. It adds the minimum knowledge for actually working in the<BR>
chosen field.<BR>
<BR>
For Social Science students, we have two degrees who seem to mirror<BR>
Associate and Bachelor. I am not sure of the progression after that (I<BR>
am a technical type). The same system applies to all students who are<BR>
not going to be engineers.<BR>
<BR>
Engineers follow a different model. There are two degrees available.<BR>
Engineer is a 3-year program, while "civil engineer" (really a lot wider<BR>
term in Swedish, includes every kind of engineer, including for example<BR>
computer science) is a 4.5-year program. Civil engineers learn a lot<BR>
more theoretical background, and are intended as innovators,<BR>
supervisors, etc.<BR>
<BR>
After a civil engineer exam, it is possible to become a Doctor. This is<BR>
(I think in most cases) a 4-year program, so it comes close to your<BR>
Doctor title. Our Doctor studies are paid (by the university) full-time<BR>
jobs.<BR>
<BR>
Note: In all cases, study might take longer time than expected (due to<BR>
less-than-optimal results). Above gymnasium level, this is the case for<BR>
most students. Taking additional time is not a problem, although you<BR>
stop receiving money from the state after 6 years (or after one year<BR>
with too poor results).<BR>
<BR>
> An undergraduate student is one who has not yet received a bachelor's (4<BR>
> year) degree, while a graduate student is one who is working on a<BR>
> master's degree or doctorate.  Also, that should be "faculty member."<BR>
<BR>
OK. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Does the term faculty member include master and doctorate students?<BR>
<BR>
> Quite so.  Different schools can have different fee structures (or, as<BR>
> in Sweden, none at all).  This one charges, but is not intended to make<BR>
> a profit for its owners.<BR>
<BR>
Could be interesting to note this next to the fee.<BR>
<BR>
> As a general guideline for those who wish to submit schools, I suggest<BR>
> that schools that follow the Swedish model have more difficult die rolls<BR>
> for admission and/or perseverance.<BR>
<BR>
But probably no Soc-related penalty. I have always assumed this penalty<BR>
symbolizes an inability to pay the annual fee easily.<BR>
<BR>
> On the other end of the spectrum, there may<BR>
> well be schools that are little more than "diploma mills", with easier<BR>
> admissions, but game _penalties_, compared to the generic school<BR>
> described in CT and T4.<BR>
<BR>
In these substandard schools, you might get a grade, but one less skill<BR>
compared to other schools. Or something like that.<BR>
<BR>
> All good ideas.  Of course, given the location of this particular<BR>
> school, the student body would be rather unlikely to protest Imperial<BR>
> involvement in the 5FW....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The ideas were intended as examples. I did not in any way consider the<BR>
time and location.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:17:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
At 20:01 -0400 20/5/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Of course the pinnacle of English cuisine is Spotted Dick <weg><BR>
<BR>
Nah, Bread and Butter pudding...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:22:08 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: structure comp Q/A<BR>
<BR>
At 22:38 -0400 20/5/00, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
>Don't forget that a 1 cm thickness of structurecomp (hereafter SC) has<BR>
>three times the toughness of 1 cm thickness of heavy wood.  Since<BR>
>toughness is not linear (CSC, page 56), a building made of 1 cm thick SC<BR>
>is as tough as one made of 27.9 cm thick heavy wood.  Thus, for every<BR>
>m^3 of SC, you would need 27.9 m^3 of wood, which reduces wood's cost<BR>
>effectiveness significantly.  This ratio is more-or-less accurate for<BR>
>other thicknesses/toughnesses.<BR>
<BR>
Consulting ACQ Table 9:<BR>
<BR>
AV/cm<BR>
<BR>
Soft Steel		2.4<BR>
Comp Laminate	8.6<BR>
Crystaliron	11<BR>
Superdense	20<BR>
Adv Comp		13<BR>
EB SD		47<BR>
<BR>
ACQ has lots of uses beyond straight combat ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:27:57 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 22:38 -0400 20/5/00, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
>There will be, assuming that this makes it into "book" status.  (My<BR>
>current plans are to collect a number of schools, put the whole thing<BR>
>into PDF format, and have it available as a free download on one or more<BR>
>of the major Traveller sites [Freelance Traveller, BITS, and anyone else<BR>
>who wants to host it].  Of course, all submissions will be fully<BR>
>credited.)<BR>
<BR>
Why not have a chat to Rob Prior - he still has quite a lot of <BR>
material on this and would like to take it forward.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:25:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
<BR>
At 22:38 -0400 20/5/00, Michel Vaillancourt <BR>
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:<BR>
>	What is the URL for this?  I can't seem to trip over it on the<BR>
>website.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Try Brubecks, then click on the java client option<BR>
<BR>
http://jtas.sjgames.com/chat/<BR>
<BR>
If I remember correctly.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:47:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: OSes was Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
At 4:39 -0400 21/5/00, "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:<BR>
>I've bite my tongue on this topic for long enough, this mail was the last<BR>
>straw. In light of all this Microsoft bashing I would point out, whether<BR>
>Microsoft's motives a right or wrong, that if it hadn't been for that<BR>
>company the PC home market would not exist.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Apple II<BR>
TRS-80<BR>
<BR>
Are both more viable claims of starting home PC markets.<BR>
<BR>
If it wasn't for IBM developing a PC the market wouldn't exist. IBM <BR>
dropped the ball big style with DOS and OS/2 vs Windows and let <BR>
Microsoft clean up. Microsoft did not create the market, merely <BR>
assimilated it and then utilised its position of market dominance in <BR>
the OS to clean up on Apps.<BR>
<BR>
>We'd all be using Macs or,<BR>
>heaven forbid, Atari STs and Amigas and the PC market would still be limited<BR>
>to offices only.<BR>
<BR>
I could resemble that comment, being a Mac owner.<BR>
<BR>
But I'll merely observe that the Amiga and ST were far superior than <BR>
the PC of the same era. They did not penetrate business markets <BR>
*because* IBM lead the way into them with the IBM PC and as they say, <BR>
no one got sacked for buying IBM. They failed to secure their design <BR>
against reverse engineering and to secure against the OS being sold <BR>
separately by MS, and this allowed the development of more machines <BR>
and lower priced equipment and ultimately IBMs crash in the market. <BR>
Meanwhile, Apple was dropping the ball big style from the Apple II <BR>
days by increasing product prices and making a move for the high end. <BR>
The result was no dominant manufacturer, rather a dominant OS.<BR>
<BR>
>Until another company comes up with a COMMERCIALLY viable<BR>
>OS, and no matter what the American Justice Department says, the PC market<BR>
>needs Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
There are other commercially viable OSes, else companies would not be <BR>
making money selling them. The US DoJ action was about abuses of <BR>
monopoly power by Microsoft (ie you can dominate a market legally, <BR>
but you are not allowed to use that market power to intimidate <BR>
smaller companies or stifle competition by forcing agreements which <BR>
kill the opposition. All of which MS has been found guilty of.<BR>
<BR>
>Topic closed.<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid your post is unlikely to do that - it'll most likely <BR>
rumble on for a while.<BR>
<BR>
>[If the Browser Standard debate is going to continue, I'd prefer all<BR>
>reference to my program being removed from the subject line.]<BR>
<BR>
People may well do that though.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps mentioning where the DLL could be obtained from and installed <BR>
would have been the best approach earlier and squashing the H&E only <BR>
uses IE5 position early on. But hindsight is quite useful :-/<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, even though I (by choice) use a different platform, I have <BR>
seen H&E and think it is a superb program, IE5 or no IE5.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:50:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: OT: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
<BR>
As requested, I have removed "Heaven & Earth" from the title. May I<BR>
point out, Stuart, that I was replying to comments about your<BR>
software's use of browsers and have _never_ criticised it at all. In<BR>
fact, I have only just downloaded it to check it out.<BR>
<BR>
Answering comments from recent replies:<BR>
<BR>
[Stuart Ferris - the most important replies]<BR>
<BR>
> In light of all this Microsoft bashing ... the PC market would<BR>
> still be limited to offices only. Until another company comes<BR>
> up with a COMMERCIALLY viable OS, ...  the PC market<BR>
> needs Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
Pointless reply really, and only my opinion, but I remember the PC<BR>
market through all its history and Microsoft did not make it happen at<BR>
all, they just benefitted most. The point is, they used their position<BR>
to damage the commercial viability of the alternatives that _do_ exist<BR>
(such as BEOS, MacOs and Linux). That is the only Microsoft 'bashing'<BR>
I agree with.<BR>
<BR>
> Its mails like these that make me wonder why I use part<BR>
> of my valuable free time writing this program? Perhaps<BR>
> I should just abandon the project?<BR>
<BR>
The whole _point_ of my original reply was that we use our time<BR>
_freely_ to write stuff for our game. I have no objection to MS<BR>
specific software at all - most of my own is, for one thing. The<BR>
original criticism (not mine) was that software should not be written<BR>
for specific _versions_ of browsers and is what I replied to, with the<BR>
objective of providing information on the levels of standards support<BR>
_in_browsers_, not in our software.<BR>
<BR>
I have downloaded H&E now and the only problem I have is that I can't<BR>
download Twisted Pixel yet, so I have not even seen it run which is<BR>
why I have _never_ commented on your software. The whole reason I<BR>
joined the discussion is that the software I am building _is_ a<BR>
browser application (i.e. will run in a browser rather than a<BR>
particular OS) and the original criticism is _very_ relevant to what I<BR>
am writing, if not to H&E.<BR>
<BR>
[Frank G.Pitt]<BR>
<BR>
> Nope, HTML was originally designed to be a simplified SGML<BR>
> designed for _structuring_ docuuments, not laying them out.<BR>
<BR>
Not true, Frank, and you should know better. HTML is a _subset_ of<BR>
SGML and is designed for _presentation_ in the same way that XML is a<BR>
subset of SGML and designed for data _structure_ and _content_<BR>
handling. SGML is more capable than either, but does _not_ mean that<BR>
either were intended to achieve the same objectives as SGML.<BR>
<BR>
> > use HTML standards. They are intended to use _Internet_ standards,<BR>
> > including XHTML, CSSL, XML and ECMAScript, to name but a few.<BR>
><BR>
> This can't be argued with any authority, as there are _no_<BR>
> standards on what a _browser_ should do. Also, of the<BR>
> languages you name above, only ECMAScript can<BR>
> actually be considered a _standard_ as it is the only one<BR>
> released by an official standards body.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Frank, but you are wrong again. XHTML has been accepted as<BR>
standard by W3C for the last several weeks, CSSSL1 and CSSSL2 are<BR>
accepted as _draft_ standards (from SGML) for improved CSS, XML has a<BR>
raft of accepted standards including XML itself, XLM DTD (not Schema<BR>
yet) XSLT (but not XSL) and others. ECMAScript as you say is a widely<BR>
known standard but _is_ implemented on Netscape 6 Preview Release.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, it would make no sense as the DOM (Document Object<BR>
> Model) is not a distributed object standard such as COM,<BR>
> i.e: you can't replace COM with DOM<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I agree with much of this. DOM does not support any object<BR>
persistance at all, and I think the DoJ have got this and CORBA<BR>
confused; some of the transcripts even mention DOM and ORB in the same<BR>
sentence! IMHO, the only hope for this part of the DoJ judgement is if<BR>
Sun's DOM to ORB / RMI plans come off (although I understand that<BR>
IBM's are further along and Xerces seems to pretty much have got<BR>
there).<BR>
<BR>
[Steve Daniels]<BR>
<BR>
> Nothing wrong with bashing microsoft.  Its the next great american<BR>
> past time.<BR>
<BR>
I do _not_ bash Microsoft. They have done great things for our<BR>
industry, but have made some serious errors of business judgement that<BR>
need to be corrected. And I am Britsh, thatnks, not American.<BR>
<BR>
> Stuart, you shouldn't take things so personally. All the successful<BR>
> programmers I know have very thick skins.  And they need them<BR>
> because many people don't phrase their constructive criticism in<BR>
> the most polite terms.<BR>
<BR>
Very true, unfortunately, but as I say, I have _never_ criticised his<BR>
programme. I have not even _used_ it yet!<BR>
<BR>
> Telling people to shut up or don't use your product will keep<BR>
> them away.  And you'll have no audience and no valuable<BR>
> feedback.  And that would make your efforts to date a waste.<BR>
> You owe it to yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Couldn't agree more. Just wait for the critics when I finish mine!!<BR>
<grin>.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 06:41:46 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Exciting Times for Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Talon wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>  Has anyone used the<BR>
> GRIP http://www.rpgrealms.com/Traveller/griptrav.html system for traveller<BR>
> or have plans to its supposed to go public very soon?<BR>
<BR>
Myself and a few of my players downloaded the trial version of it last<BR>
fall.  Even if all of the bugs were worked out, it doesn't seem worth<BR>
what you would pay for it.<BR>
<BR>
I emailed some questions and reported a few bugs to their customer<BR>
support too.  I received no response.  So if you have any trouble with<BR>
this game you might be on your own, they aren't very customer<BR>
orientated.<BR>
<BR>
Besides that, there is plenty of free software out there to play<BR>
online.  Check out these:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webrpg.com/gamesystem/index.phtml<BR>
<BR>
http://www.mirc.com/<BR>
<BR>
http://www.shadowsource.org/keys/progs/rpgtable.htm<BR>
<BR>
http://www.2d10.com/<BR>
<BR>
And that is just a few of the ones out there.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:22:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
> As I recall the problem was that the fanatical government had ordered all<BR>
> forces under their command to fight to the last man. Naturally the Merc unit<BR>
> was not interested in continuing the fight beyond a reasonable point. Since<BR>
> both sides were also executing prisoners this put the mercs in a rather bad<BR>
> position.<BR>
> <BR>
> When it was all over and the unit reached the "safety" of the lines of their<BR>
> own side their employers attempted to execute the merc commander because he<BR>
<BR>
[spoilers]<BR>
But the merc commander at that point was a native, Lt. in charge of the native's<BR>
supply unit.  He along with two privates (Hodicky was one, can't recall the other's)<BR>
abandoned their unit when the Republicans(?) came in to finish the whole base off.<BR>
I believe they were the only survivors of the native unit and fell in with the<BR>
mercs - and since the merc commander had been killed by the native unit leaders<BR>
after figuring out they meant to sell the merc unit out, the rest of the mercs<BR>
put the Lt. in charge even though he was native as he had the highest surviving<BR>
rank.  I wondered about that, but didn't let it bother me too much.  <BR>
So anyway, when they got back to the "safety" of the government base, he admitted<BR>
being a native and not a merc (partly to save the mercs he'd befriended I think)<BR>
and was going to be executed for desertion because he was a native.  The merc <BR>
unit was preparing to leave when they came back for him.<BR>
<BR>
> had abandoned his position in the face of overwhelming odds and had<BR>
> successfully lead his troops in a tactical retreat rather than letting them<BR>
> all die in a futile defense. The other merc companies in the countries<BR>
> employ disagreed with the legality of this "to the last man" order and<BR>
> exerted pressure on the government to allow the unit to leave the planet.<BR>
<BR>
Don't recall that.  The mercs tried to get the Lt. freed legally and then <BR>
used force.  I may have missed bits about other merc companies trying to free<BR>
him.<BR>
<BR>
> P.S. As I recall the unit was some kind of anti-armor unit. The spacecraft<BR>
> was not a combat ship, but was "rigged" as a surprise asset. They took the<BR>
> ship out with a field piece meant for use against tanks.<BR>
<BR>
I know the ship they were escaping back to government lines in was a third-party<BR>
transport that had been damaged in the starship attack such that it could only<BR>
hover and follow the powergrid lines, but they stacked up ingots of copper in<BR>
the hatches for firing positions.  (The ship was transporting copper from the <BR>
gov't mine and the Republicans felt it was a fair target as it was aiding the<BR>
enemy.)<BR>
I thought the ship that they nailed in the first chapter was performing expected<BR>
tactics as one of the mercs recognized what it was doing (which was interested <BR>
too: jumping out of 'hyperspace' or whatever it was a few klicks above the surface<BR>
over the target, dropping ordnance and jumping back into 'hyperspace' to give<BR>
the shortest possible target - which made it all the more unlikely that the<BR>
merc anti-tank gun could've hurt it).<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:22:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
> As I recall the problem was that the fanatical government had ordered all<BR>
> forces under their command to fight to the last man. Naturally the Merc unit<BR>
> was not interested in continuing the fight beyond a reasonable point. Since<BR>
> both sides were also executing prisoners this put the mercs in a rather bad<BR>
> position.<BR>
> <BR>
> When it was all over and the unit reached the "safety" of the lines of their<BR>
> own side their employers attempted to execute the merc commander because he<BR>
<BR>
[spoilers]<BR>
But the merc commander at that point was a native, Lt. in charge of the native's<BR>
supply unit.  He along with two privates (Hodicky was one, can't recall the other's)<BR>
abandoned their unit when the Republicans(?) came in to finish the whole base off.<BR>
I believe they were the only survivors of the native unit and fell in with the<BR>
mercs - and since the merc commander had been killed by the native unit leaders<BR>
after figuring out they meant to sell the merc unit out, the rest of the mercs<BR>
put the Lt. in charge even though he was native as he had the highest surviving<BR>
rank.  I wondered about that, but didn't let it bother me too much.  <BR>
So anyway, when they got back to the "safety" of the government base, he admitted<BR>
being a native and not a merc (partly to save the mercs he'd befriended I think)<BR>
and was going to be executed for desertion because he was a native.  The merc <BR>
unit was preparing to leave when they came back for him.<BR>
<BR>
> had abandoned his position in the face of overwhelming odds and had<BR>
> successfully lead his troops in a tactical retreat rather than letting them<BR>
> all die in a futile defense. The other merc companies in the countries<BR>
> employ disagreed with the legality of this "to the last man" order and<BR>
> exerted pressure on the government to allow the unit to leave the planet.<BR>
<BR>
Don't recall that.  The mercs tried to get the Lt. freed legally and then <BR>
used force.  I may have missed bits about other merc companies trying to free<BR>
him.<BR>
<BR>
> P.S. As I recall the unit was some kind of anti-armor unit. The spacecraft<BR>
> was not a combat ship, but was "rigged" as a surprise asset. They took the<BR>
> ship out with a field piece meant for use against tanks.<BR>
<BR>
I know the ship they were escaping back to government lines in was a third-party<BR>
transport that had been damaged in the starship attack such that it could only<BR>
hover and follow the powergrid lines, but they stacked up ingots of copper in<BR>
the hatches for firing positions.  (The ship was transporting copper from the <BR>
gov't mine and the Republicans felt it was a fair target as it was aiding the<BR>
enemy.)<BR>
I thought the ship that they nailed in the first chapter was performing expected<BR>
tactics as one of the mercs recognized what it was doing (which was interested <BR>
too: jumping out of 'hyperspace' or whatever it was a few klicks above the surface<BR>
over the target, dropping ordnance and jumping back into 'hyperspace' to give<BR>
the shortest possible target - which made it all the more unlikely that the<BR>
merc anti-tank gun could've hurt it).<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:20:39 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Tank you very much (was RE: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
Volker wrote:<BR>
>Exactly. Sot in the beginning the Americans were ill equipped for the war <BR>
>they were facing. Some of the modern tactics and weaponry, like tanks, etc <BR>
>surprised the US-forces in the beginning and caused heavy losses.<BR>
<BR>
I'll agree with "ill equipped", that's for sure.  But I thought the German army<BR>
never had more than a few dozen tanks available at any one time during the <BR>
entire war...were any used against the American units?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:41:09 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
<BR>
At 09:25 AM 5/21/00, you wrote:<BR>
>At 22:38 -0400 20/5/00, Michel Vaillancourt <BR>
><misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:<BR>
>>         What is the URL for this?  I can't seem to trip over it on the<BR>
>>website.  Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
>Try Brubecks, then click on the java client option<BR>
><BR>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/chat/<BR>
><BR>
>If I remember correctly.<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
         Thanks to you and everyone else who responded.  Of course, no one <BR>
was home when I dropped in ;(<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt	<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:35:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
At 02:43 PM 5/21/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Think Kashmir, Vietnam, Aceh, Columbia ... you are going to have Free<BR>
>Tanoose cells, Garda-Vilis Militia cells, secret police informants, and IISS<BR>
>agents from Internal Mapping Branch just keeping an eye on things.<BR>
<BR>
The Free Tanoose Student League, which is not associated with the actual<BR>
TFL, but is instead typical of the "outraged younf liberal" groups found on<BR>
many college campuses.  The FTSL engages in civil disobedience, blocking<BR>
recruiting stations, raising funds to defend accused TFL members.  Mostly<BR>
middle class kids getting a kick out of being "radical."<BR>
<BR>
Scenario:  The characters are from the Unified Army of Vilis' Inspector<BR>
General office.  A demonstration by the FTSL went bad, and Imperial troops<BR>
fired into the crowd.  The troops claim that they took fire, and were<BR>
defending themselves, but video shot at the scene shows differently.  The<BR>
locals want the soldiers hung, and there is immense pressure from the<BR>
characters' superiors to find a scapegoat.  Somebody is hiding the truth..<BR>
can the characters' find the truth without touching off a massive student<BR>
riot? <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2469<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 21 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2470<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Music in the 3I<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
Heaven and Earth-- on a slowwwww machine.<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Giggling officers<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:36:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Music in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
At 10:03 PM 5/20/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/20/00 3:18 PM, daveshayne@email.msn.com issued<BR>
>forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> But rock is a wonderfull image for Vargr music doncha think?<BR>
><BR>
>KoRn, Twist. It is /so/ Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
The Grateful Dead are very Zhodani.  <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:46:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 02:40 AM 5/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese <BR>
>were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
<BR>
No, we won there too.  We had the will to follow through with our attacks,<BR>
and force the surrender on our terms or no surrender, but conquest.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:57:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re: SJG JTAS Chat Area<BR>
<BR>
At 12:41 PM 5/21/2000 -0300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>         Thanks to you and everyone else who responded.  Of course, no one <BR>
>was home when I dropped in ;(<BR>
<BR>
If somebody brings a decent laptop to the BayCon Traveller party, we'll log<BR>
in from there.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:17:14 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven and Earth-- on a slowwwww machine.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I have finaly managed to download and run the program in question and<BR>
I must say that love it.  I think the addition of the progress bar and the<BR>
report bar may be the greatest inprovement, I can finaly see that it is<BR>
working and not just locked up.  I love all the ptions and cannot wait to<BR>
see the other options enabled.<BR>
<BR>
I have had the program running for about 3 days straight now and have had no<BR>
crashes or lock ups in the nearly 200 systems it is up to, however it is<BR>
very slow on my poor machine and does gobble up disk space at an alarming<BR>
rate if you are generating maps as well. (I only have a 1.2 gig hard drive.)<BR>
<BR>
New features I would like to see:<BR>
<BR>
1)    I would like to be able to hit one command and print out all the<BR>
system details, not just the details on the planet/moon I am looking at now.<BR>
That would be so cool.<BR>
<BR>
2)    The whole Assigne different densities and government reagions thing I<BR>
am always asking about.<BR>
<BR>
On another note, does anyone out there have any sector generation programs<BR>
written in qbasic that puts out the standard sector file?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:25:15 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
>Tim Dougherty<BR>
...<BR>
>Of course eBay is a wonderful way to sell your books. Pictures are a must<BR>
if you<BR>
>want a good price. It reassures the buyer of both the sellers possesion of the<BR>
>product and the quality of the product. Single book sales will net you more<BR>
money<BR>
>overall.<BR>
<BR>
  So, if you've got a set of a rare OOP game and two supplements/<BR>
expansions for it then you're better off to sell them as the three<BR>
separate items?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:25:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/21/00 1:57 AM, a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anybody have a blank world template (preferably in Freehand or<BR>
> Illustrator format)? Ditto for subsector and sector maps?<BR>
><BR>
I have some, what scale, file type, etc. are you looking for? Do you need to<BR>
print it, or will it be screen-viewed? Do you want DGP or GT standard planet<BR>
maps? I am still baffled by the GT projection even with Leonards help, but I<BR>
have other templates, and some non-standard ones.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:42:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
>   So, if you've got a set of a rare OOP game and two supplements/<BR>
> expansions for it then you're better off to sell them as the three<BR>
> separate items?<BR>
> <BR>
I'd also be interested in this question. I've sold two bundles of Traveller<BR>
items on eBay (and I'm currently selling a third). Here's what I got<BR>
for them:<BR>
<BR>
First bundle: 3 FASA adventures, Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars,<BR>
Ordeal on Eshaar and Rescue on Galatea, all in excellent condition.<BR>
I got $41 in the end.<BR>
<BR>
Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
<BR>
Do you think I would have gotten more money if I sold them individually?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:42:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>My late grandfather, who served in the Eighth Army in Africa, gave me<BR>
>some anecdotal evidence on that. Having seen initial US operations he<BR>
>held Rommel's forces in far more respect than his US allies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed, Dom, a majority of the US Forces sent to North Africa were, at<BR>
the time, piss-poor doggies, but you have to remember that they were<BR>
National Guard & well, had never been in a shooting war, before.  But, after<BR>
a while they shaped up into fine shape.<BR>
    Of course, you have to admit that Monty, & I do like Monty, he was a<BR>
good soldier & general, though not as good a Patton or Bradley, was a bit<BR>
slow on that attack.  But, that can be explained away, as he was quite aware<BR>
that he did not have the manpower reserves that the US had, so he had to<BR>
make every attack perfect, so as many of the enemy died, while keeping as<BR>
many of his own men alive.<BR>
    As for Rommel, he was most likely the only general, on either side that<BR>
was respected as much as he was.  Hell, even Patton liked "that<BR>
son-of-a-bitch",<BR>
<BR>
>This is not meant to be knocking the US list members or those who<BR>
>died on either side, just an observation that I had heard similar<BR>
>stories to Volker from someone I trust.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    NP.  Its true.  Our forces at the start were not battle hardened.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:43:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Rommel's forces were experienced regulars, the newly arrived Americans were<BR>
>National Guardsmen who had never heard a shot fired in anger.  Of course<BR>
>our early experiences were bad.. it also didn't help that we were still<BR>
>using the M3 Stuart as a MBT.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Don't be knocking the M3 Stuart, it was a good tank in its day, of<BR>
course its day was in 1939, not 1942.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:45:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
<BR>
>Exactly. Sot in the beginning the Americans were ill equipped for the war<BR>
>they were facing. Some of the modern tactics and weaponry, like tanks, etc<BR>
>surprised the US-forces in the beginning and caused heavy losses.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    New tactics & weapons always surprise your enemy, thats why they are<BR>
new.  Old tactics & weapons never surprise your enemy, as they already know<BR>
them.<BR>
    Sorta like Paratroops.  Now, they do not surprise anyone, but when they<BR>
were first used they scared the shit out of a lot of people.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:52:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>> My late grandfather, who served in the Eighth Army in Africa, gave me<BR>
>> some anecdotal evidence on that. Having seen initial US operations he<BR>
>> held Rommel's forces in far more respect than his US allies.<BR>
>><BR>
>> This is not meant to be knocking the US list members or those who<BR>
>> died on either side, just an observation that I had heard similar<BR>
>> stories to Volker from someone I trust.<BR>
><BR>
>Don't worry, anyone who has actually studied military history is aware of<BR>
>how poorly the US performed in Tunisia.<BR>
><BR>
>For anyone who has not, go look up the battle of Kasserine Pass.<BR>
><BR>
>To their credit, they learned pretty quickly after that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    This might be due to the fact that the dumb ones were now all dead.<BR>
Actually, in combat, the stupid die off first.<BR>
    For example, when I was in DS, my unit was part of the amphib landings &<BR>
we were pinned down by Iraqi fire, so I called in Naval Arty (as this is one<BR>
of the three duties the navy is good for), & the SEALs walked into the<BR>
barrage & died.  Darwin in action, the stupid died first.<BR>
    Remember, boys & girls, when you have 16" shells comming in, do not walk<BR>
into it, it will be a bad thing[tm].<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:56:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
<BR>
>These are new to me, anyone know the etymology of these terms? "Banger" for<BR>
>sausage is odd enough, but "Bubble & Squeak"? Where does that get it's<BR>
name?<BR>
>And why would one name a pastry after an amphibian?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Banger:  A sausage kinda looks like the male member, & what to most men<BR>
use their member for?  To "bang her".  Bang her to banger is not a streech.<BR>
    Bubble & Squeak.  Well have you ever boiled potatoes or cabbage?<BR>
    That one I cannot answer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:01:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>>>Who knows, with enough garlic even you might taste good.  I'd take<BR>
>>>a snail over haggis any day (having tried both).<BR>
><BR>
>Yuck! I'll take neither if given the option.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Hey, a lot of people like Haggis.  I do.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Ok, the French eat some weird things, but on balance I can think<BR>
>>>of dozens of good things for every weird one.  The English? what,<BR>
>>>fish and chips? bangers and mash? bubble and squeak? toad in the<BR>
>>>hole?  (who names these things anyway?)<BR>
><BR>
>Can't say I care for much French or English cuisine.  Italian and<BR>
>Mexican and American are my preferences.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Italian & American I do like, I also like English, & French Peasant, but<BR>
not French.  As for Mexican, only if its done right.<BR>
<BR>
>The Germans have some good dishes, deserts, and pastries.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Agreed, one reason to take over Germany in my book.<BR>
<BR>
><Homer>  But nothing beats a good old donut.  </Homer><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    <Homer> Donuts.........</Homer><BR>
<BR>
>Actually, fish and chips (without the vinegar) is pretty good.  Of<BR>
>course, I think just about anything fried and involving potatoes is<BR>
>good.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, I do enjoy it everyso often.  My wife hates it when I come home<BR>
with Long John Silvers, or Pete's Fish & Chips, as she knows I will use a<BR>
whole bottle of Malt Vinegar or Gar on them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:02:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>Lord knows what you think of mushy peas and tartare sauce... <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Matt, do not get me started on finding raw cabbage on my hamburger at a<BR>
Burger King, when I was in England.  Though the Cole Slaw I had on a<BR>
hamburger at a Whimpies in South Africa was pretty good.<BR>
    As for tartare sause, its good on fish.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:05:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>I would suggest that there are better delicacies available from the UK as<BR>
>well.<BR>
><BR>
>Steak & kidney Pie, Cornish pasties, Scotch eggs, Welsh rarebit, various<BR>
>breads,<BR>
>apple turnovers, even pork pies (as long as you avoid the ones sold in<BR>
>railway cafeterias).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Frank, I hope you know that I went to AJ's after reading this for the<BR>
first time, bought 12 steak & kidney pies, 12 cornish pasties, & my wife is<BR>
pissed at me, when I ate the first steak & kidney pie & cornish pastie, as I<BR>
slurped down the kidney in the s&k pie.  I hope you are damn snappy happy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:06:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Of course the pinnacle of English cuisine is Spotted Dick <weg><BR>
><BR>
>Nah, Bread and Butter pudding...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, a good Cornish Pastie or Steak & Kidney Pie & a Good Beer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:07:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Giggling officers<BR>
<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>> I really miss not being able to blow up one<BR>
>> bridge.  I mean one stinking bridge, is that too much to ask?<BR>
><BR>
>Apparently so....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I know.  Hell, I would do it for free, even.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:10:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
<BR>
>>    New Zealand, where men are men, women are bored, & the sheep are<BR>
scared<BR>
>>silly.<BR>
><BR>
>Sounds like West Virginia. Of course there the sheep also have cute<BR>
>names.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yeah, well, everyone knows that in West Virginia, there are only queers<BR>
& sheep, so which one are you?  A queer or a sheep?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:12:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>OBTrav: Since the X-boat network is used for public mail, it is probably<BR>
>used for discussion forums. How many invasions, near-c-rock bombings,<BR>
>economic sanctions, and other unpleasantness have been the results of<BR>
>flame wars?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Everyone of them.<BR>
<BR>
>PS  I have not become angry during this discussion, and I still like the<BR>
>list people. It's just that some (including myself) have a slight<BR>
>tendency of getting carried away...  DS<BR>
<BR>
    NP.  Now where did I put my Near-C-Rock crewed by Aslan Pirate Females<BR>
in Comfortable Shoes?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:18:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
<BR>
>>    Acutally, I have just finished a book that talks about WWII, & it was<BR>
>>written by a Brit, & for the first time he does not claim that England won<BR>
><BR>
>  I don't believe that Paul Johnson has written on the subject as such, but<BR>
>I do recall skimming another outrageously bad book recently - is this a `99<BR>
>or 2000 title you've got?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Late '99, early 2000.  And, no Paul Johnson did not write it, he has his<BR>
hands full being Mayor of Phoenix.  *wg* (Yes, I know who you are talking<BR>
about, but I was reading a Paul Johnson book on the History of America about<BR>
a month ago & I got the comment, "Where does Paul Johnson get the time?  He<BR>
is mayor of phoenix, a college basketball coach, & now a writer."  I wll not<BR>
say who said this, but she does sleep with me.)<BR>
<BR>
>  I very much doubt that anyone has seriously claimed that US help was<BR>
trivial,<BR>
>although the case could be made that the UK quite possibly could have won<BR>
with-<BR>
>out their active help.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    How?  Lets face it, the UK could have held off the Germans until<BR>
Doomsday, but they could never have fought a protracted war, without active<BR>
help from somewhare.<BR>
<BR>
>  I'd want to check specific figures, but broadly speaking the UK didn't<BR>
>need US food imports - they could always buy them somewhere else.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Where?  The US was & is the worlds breadbasket.<BR>
<BR>
>  As much stupidity as might be attributed to US diplomacy, and<BR>
isolationist<BR>
>sentiment in particular, it's hard to imagine an embargo on goods to the UK<BR>
>being enforced, for any number of reasons.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, we had & have a good diplomatic corps.  And, well we love the<BR>
Brits, as they are kin & kith of us, there are just sometimes whe just don't<BR>
like them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:19:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>    And, that is all that I saw it as.  Of course if you will look<BR>
closely,<BR>
>>it was not the Army, not the Air Force, not the Navy, not the Coast Guard<BR>
>>that saved the US, but the Marines.  And, in that it was totaly truthful.<BR>
>>Only the Marines can save the US from an alien invasion.<BR>
><BR>
>ITYM "a drunkard cropduster" HTH HAND<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    He was a Marine.  It does not matter if he was a drunkard cropduster, he<BR>
was a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:24:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
<BR>
>>     Of course not, they would rather go to someplace like Tucson, where<BR>
they<BR>
>> will be welcomed with open arms.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course!<BR>
><BR>
>Set 'em down, feed them some fine Sonoran food from Rosa's, ply them with<BR>
>some of Nimbus or Gentle Ben's microbrews...give 'em a week, and<BR>
>they'll forget all about this 'destroying the world' stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    What do you want to poison them?  I have eaten at Rosa's about 10 times,<BR>
& 5 times out of 10 I have had to have my stomach pumped.<BR>
    As for Nimbus or Gentle Ben's Microbrews, never give an alien with a<BR>
death ray that stuff.  Are you insane, well of course you are, you live in<BR>
Tucson, but that is not the point, you do not want to piss off a BEM like<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
>"Manana, manana" they'll say, "Plenty of time for that manana. Right now<BR>
>there's a cold brewskie to hand, a cool breeze from the swamp cooler, and<BR>
>a nice sunset thing going on. I think I'll just kick back and mellow out a<BR>
>while..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    More like, after eating at Rosa's & drinking Nimbus & Gentle Ben's<BR>
Microbrews:<BR>
    "Human, you have tried to poison us with your food & drink.  Now you<BR>
die.  I was just going to nuke Tucson, but now I will destory your planet."<BR>
<BR>
    Of course do I think that the first insane aslum<sp> should have been<BR>
built in Tucson, hell no, we put all of our crazies on the train & shipped<BR>
them to Tucson.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:28:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>    Actually, warfare is not about weapons, or tactics, or anything else<BR>
>>like that, it is about will.<BR>
><BR>
>The Japanese were willing to make a habit out of smashing manned<BR>
>airplanes into our ships during WW2.  Their capital and many of their<BR>
>other major cities were nearly wiped clean by massive firebombing raids.<BR>
>They were led to the surrender table by a combination of a personal<BR>
>appeal from their emperor and the only wartime uses of atomic weaponry<BR>
>in history.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Do you forget about the Japanese Peace Movement?<BR>
<BR>
>Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese<BR>
>were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
only sneak attack on American Soil.<BR>
<BR>
>There are many more examples of small nations getting cowed, overrun,<BR>
>and absorbed by larger nations, unless the strong-willed smaller nation<BR>
>had an advantage to save itself with.  Granted, it needed the will to<BR>
>discover and pursue such an advantage, but without some such advantage<BR>
>all the willpower in the world is useless.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Look at your South American History.<BR>
<BR>
>"It is said that God is always on the side of the heaviest battalions."<BR>
>               - Voltaire<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Gee, could we really be speaking French?  No, I don't think so.  England<BR>
won the war against Napoelon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:30:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression <BR>
>that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Look at the pics of Zhodani Nobility, they look arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression<BR>
>>that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
><BR>
>Indeed, I got the impression that most Zhodani are fairly peaceful, nice<BR>
>folks.  Of course, the ones we meet in our games are usually military, so<BR>
>they're a little different.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You can be peaceful, nice folks & still be arrogant.  Just look at the<BR>
English.<BR>
    Now I like the English, they are peaceful, nice folks, who are still a<BR>
bit arrogant.  Of course I am a Scotsman, but that should not really make a<BR>
difference, should it?  I mean the English have occupied my homeland for<BR>
over 600 years, & only recently have given us the right to self-rule.<BR>
    I mean am I upset that Scotland is part of the UK & we have to kiss the<BR>
@$$ of a dried up queen & her inbreed children?  Am I upset that the Scotish<BR>
Royal Family was put to the axe by the Brits?  Hell yes, I am, on both<BR>
counts.  I am a Scotsman, born free by god, I will not bend a knee to<BR>
anyone.  By the grace of god I am a Highlander, & I will never surrender my<BR>
rights to pick a fight with anyone I want.<BR>
    And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?  Because<BR>
god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:51:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 7:42 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >   So, if you've got a set of a rare OOP game and two supplements/<BR>
> > expansions for it then you're better off to sell them as the three<BR>
> > separate items?<BR>
> ><BR>
> I'd also be interested in this question. I've sold two bundles of<BR>
Traveller<BR>
> items on eBay (and I'm currently selling a third). Here's what I got<BR>
> for them:<BR>
><BR>
> First bundle: 3 FASA adventures, Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars,<BR>
> Ordeal on Eshaar and Rescue on Galatea, all in excellent condition.<BR>
> I got $41 in the end.<BR>
><BR>
> Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
> Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
> I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you think I would have gotten more money if I sold them individually?<BR>
><BR>
> Matt<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I think you might have got another ~$50+ or so selling them<BR>
individually. The first lot probably went for a fair price for the 3 items,<BR>
but with the second you will get a couple of collectors bidding on the<BR>
'rare' items (ie in this lot Bk6, Supp10 & Adv13). They aren't really after<BR>
the others, as they probably already have them and will probably sell them<BR>
on as separate lots and recoup the cost of the two or so items they *did*<BR>
want.<BR>
<BR>
If you sell them individually you can probably average $10-15 per LBB. Yes,<BR>
some will go for only $5 or so, but others can get as high as $30+ each. You<BR>
could possibly have got the $61for lot 2 with just selling the 3 items I<BR>
highlighted as separate items, as they seem to average $20+ each on eBay.<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:40:43 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: OT: Stinging nettles<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 12:51 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Stinging nettles. <BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know if this is the plant known in finnis as "nokkonen"?<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:38:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
At 12:10 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Yeah, well, everyone knows that in West Virginia, there are only queers<BR>
>& sheep, so which one are you?  A queer or a sheep?<BR>
<BR>
Why don't you try and make a seat cover out of me and find out the hard way?<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:39:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 12:19 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    He was a Marine.  It does not matter if he was a drunkard cropduster, he<BR>
>was a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine.<BR>
<BR>
Lee Harvey Oswald, United States Marine<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2470<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2471</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 21 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2471<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Vs: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
re: Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
Re: WWI<BR>
Re: ID4<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:46:13<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:30 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
><BR>
>>I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression <BR>
>>that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
><BR>
>    Look at the pics of Zhodani Nobility, they look arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
*boggle*  That's an interesting way to interpet things..<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:53:10 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 4:28 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The below might not be correct, but there is no way we will ever know<BR>
> for sure.<BR>
> <BR>
> He got hit in the back of his head while standing in a trench looking<BR>
> towards the enemy. Either it was a "magic bullet," or some of his own<BR>
> men shot him.<BR>
> <BR>
> Since his army has suffered large losses because of him, I know what I<BR>
> believe...<BR>
> <BR>
> /Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
I remember reading somewhere that some of his contemporaries thought that he could not be killed by normal means, which was supposed to explain the button as a bullet thing...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:43:18 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 21 May 2000, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     What do you want to poison them?  I have eaten at Rosa's about 10 times,<BR>
> & 5 times out of 10 I have had to have my stomach pumped.<BR>
<BR>
Why on earth did you keep going back?  Going back after the first two times<BR>
would have been reasonable, but after the third?  What were you saying about<BR>
Darwin earlier? <g><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
9:43pm up 15 days, 2:45, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.08<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:09:31 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anybody have a blank world template (preferably in Freehand or<BR>
> Illustrator format)? Ditto for subsector and sector maps?<BR>
<BR>
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/<BR>
<BR>
Raw Formats:<BR>
.CDR<BR>
.PCT<BR>
.PDF<BR>
.AI<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
640 x 840 and 800X1200 for<BR>
.BMP<BR>
.CPT<BR>
.GIF<BR>
.MAC<BR>
.PCX<BR>
.PNG<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:14:47 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Stevens wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
> Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
> I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
<BR>
You got robbed.  I would easily have paid US$100 or more for all that.<BR>
But I don't have the time to loiter on Ebays time limited auctions.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I probably would have gone to $150.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:06:08 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
At 11:47 -0400 21/5/00, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <BR>
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
>Does anybody have a blank world template (preferably in Freehand or<BR>
>Illustrator format)? Ditto for subsector and sector maps?<BR>
<BR>
I have AI 7- versions of the subsector and sector.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know if you want them<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:15:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 16:46 -0400 21/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
> >I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression<BR>
> >that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
>    Look at the pics of Zhodani Nobility, they look arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
I never had that impression, and the text in the books suggests <BR>
otherwise; the whole point is that they have a duty to each other, <BR>
something that arrogance would contradict/conflict with.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:30:31 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 17 May 2000 12:58:46 +0100, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems that  we've<BR>
> only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are  the  other  entries<BR>
> still in progress or have people lost interest?<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
Things have been a little hectic lately.  I have been reviewing various<BR>
inspirational "stuff" to keep me in the mood though :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Computers run on faith, not electrons.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:30:35 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ICQ q&a (was re:of line..)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 18 May 2000 19:42:32 -0500, Dan Roseberry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Another set of questions before the thunderstorm hits...<BR>
> <BR>
> I take it from a number of folks that ICQ is, well, as<BR>
> Jeff Peterson put it, one of those programs that<BR>
> "(You get what you pay for)" This being the case,<BR>
> I'm now wondering<BR>
> <BR>
> Whether theres something better (MIRC, AIM, etc)?<BR>
> Could these other chat programs work with the<BR>
> still developing Traveller On-Line setup?<BR>
<BR>
While there may be better messaging software out there, *nothing* is as<BR>
wide spread as ICQ.  IOW, if you want to reach as many people as possible,<BR>
ICQ is the way to go.<BR>
<BR>
PS: ICQ recently released version 2000a a few weeks ago there have been<BR>
quite a few complaints.  Try and find yourself a copy of 99b instead.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Computers run on faith, not electrons.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:57:31 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
> > Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
> > Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
> > I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
> <BR>
> You got robbed.  I would easily have paid US$100 or more for all that.<BR>
> But I don't have the time to loiter on Ebays time limited auctions.<BR>
> <BR>
> Heck, I probably would have gone to $150.<BR>
<BR>
OK, _your_ name is going in my book for the next time I sell <BR>
something...:-)<BR>
<BR>
I do have another bundle up for sale, 9 books, although the only stuff of<BR>
value I have is book 6 (scouts), book 8 (robots) and yet another<BR>
copy of Uragyd'n of the Seven Pillars. (I doubt that books 0-5 are<BR>
worth much.) You can find it at<BR>
 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=335807768<BR>
Currently going for $18.50 with less than four days to go. If you feel any<BR>
desire to spend that $150, feel free to spend it on me. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:57:06 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
That's the one I went back to.  It won't let me paste pictures on the CD<BR>
jacket though..just the bloody icon of the picture.  (post as Icon is NOT<BR>
checked).  So far it has been the best program out of 5 I have tried.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 11:10 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] : CD Labeler Prg<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Can anyone tell me what software is the best for creating<BR>
> > jewel-case labels?<BR>
> > I tried Ultimate Label Pro and it's the worst crap I've ever seen<BR>
(amidst<BR>
> > generating several ERRORS it didn't even print correctly).<BR>
><BR>
> I find the one in ADaptec's EasyCD Pro pretty good.<BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:07:40 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: WWI<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-18 19:29:45 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
 <BR>
 > I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
 > need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
 <BR>
 I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
 glossed over by Hollywood. >><BR>
<BR>
I can think of four right off the top of my head, buthere are doubtless more:<BR>
<BR>
_All Quiet on the Western Front_, _Sergeant York_, _The Rainbow Division_, <BR>
_Gallipoli_, and that movie with Kirk Douglas as a French regimental <BR>
commander that is accused of mutiny.<BR>
<BR>
Not as many as WWII, by any means.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:07:42 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: ID4<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-18 21:33:56 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we are a decadant<BR>
 society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest scene, the <BR>
shot<BR>
 of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in Canberra, the<BR>
 _real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I assume the director did that because there is no landmark in Canberra that <BR>
the US audience would recognize . . .<BR>
<BR>
When I saw the film, I noticed that and figured the saucer had destroyed <BR>
Canberra already and moved on to Sydney before the RAAF shot it down <BR>
(Washington DC was toast by the time the saucers were downed, remember).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 20 May 00, at 2:21, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities<BR>
> of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention free access to British technology - Penicillin and <BR>
microwave radar in particular.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
On 20 May 00, at 14:33, Clay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Vincent P. Runci" wrote:<BR>
> > By the way, in my old TU, there was a much much lower ratio of officers<BR>
> > to enlisted.  We even ran a few games where the PCs were NCOs.<BR>
> <BR>
> In my current TU out of 12 players two are officers and three are NCOs the<BR>
> rest are lower enlisted.  To me, that ratio still seems very high even if<BR>
> they are on small ships.<BR>
> <BR>
> I would say a realistic ratio would be one officer to every 40 enlisted<BR>
> and one NCO to every eight lower enlisted - so long as you use that as a<BR>
> guideline and not a hard set rule.<BR>
<BR>
Most real world militaries run at 8 - 20% officers. Below about 10% <BR>
there aren't enough, and above about 15% there are so many that nothing <BR>
gets done. Peacetime militaries tend to get more and more officers, and <BR>
in wartime they get thinned out.<BR>
<BR>
In a hypothetical military there's no reason the ratio can't be very <BR>
different, if the officers do jobs that are currently done by NCOs, or <BR>
vice versa. This could cause problems with too many/too few officers <BR>
(like the Soviets had), but this is avoidable if the extra officers <BR>
aren't given command prviledges to go with their rank (at which point <BR>
you've effectively given warrant officers commissions without changing <BR>
anything else).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 9:59, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:54 PM 5/19/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >ObTrav: Does the 3I has a fixation on attacking the Zhodani? <BR>
> <BR>
> The Domain of Deneb has a fixation on being attacked by the Zhodani.  I<BR>
> think the rest of the Imperium would think of it as a regional problem. --<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure that that opinion changed for a while there. Lack of interest <BR>
in that "regional problem" helped cause the Civil War.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 21:27, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:05 PM 5/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >    They eat snails for god's sake.  Come-on, would you eat a snail? <BR>
> >    Hell,<BR>
> >no.  No one, but a Frenchmen would.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rangers would.  Anyway, we eat ground-up cow meat covered with slices of<BR>
> fungus-infested rotted milk.<BR>
<BR>
Your cheeseburgers have blue-vein in them? I'm impressed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 11:19, Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've heard that 50% of all casualties in WW2 were<BR>
> caused by artillery, and that under certain combat<BR>
> conditions - especially the generally open terrain<BR>
> of the North Africa campaign - artillery accounted<BR>
> for more than 70% of casualties.  Add in how many<BR>
> were caused by air power, and the rifle-and-knife<BR>
> soldier can claim very few kills.  Not that he isn't<BR>
> vital, and doing the most dangerous job, but in many<BR>
> ways the crux of his job is to find and fix the bad<BR>
> guys so the "push button" warriors can kill them.<BR>
<BR>
The post WWII "high-tech" wars, like Veitnam had even higher kill <BR>
percentages for artillery, but overall this trend has been reversed <BR>
recently with as much as 90% being killed by small-arms these days. The <BR>
lack of heavy equipment in most current conflicts is, of course, the <BR>
biggest reason for this.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 19 May 00, at 11:37, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 19 May 00, at 6:46, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities<BR>
> > of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, a lot of folks in the US were (and still are) quite<BR>
> upset that all the *privately owned* rifles collected in the US and sent<BR>
> to to the UK for Home Guard use, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY'D BE<BR>
> RETURNED AFTER THE WAR, were instead collected up and *destroyed*. <BR>
<BR>
Same thing happened here (except there wasn't any choice about the <BR>
collection), and they took the .22s as well.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:02:08 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 05/21/00 at 01:39 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:19 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>    He was a Marine.  It does not matter if he was a drunkard cropduster, he<BR>
>>was a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine.<BR>
<BR>
>Lee Harvey Oswald, United States Marine<BR>
<BR>
And obviously a Rifeman-6 with several double 6 rolls one day in Dallas.<BR>
<BR>
You know most marines are nice enough fellows by themselves, but put a bunch of them together and...<g>...reminds me of a starport bar. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:11:40 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
On 05/21/00 at 12:02 PM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>Lord knows what you think of mushy peas and tartare sauce... <g><BR>
<BR>
Yuck!<BR>
<BR>
I don't much like English peas anyway (field peas are *much* better), but mushy...double yuck!  Tartare sauce isn't even good on fish, why in heaven's name would you put it on a vegetable?<BR>
<BR>
>    Matt, do not get me started on finding raw cabbage on my hamburger at<BR>
>a Burger King, when I was in England.  Though the Cole Slaw I had on a<BR>
>hamburger at a Whimpies in South Africa was pretty good.<BR>
<BR>
<shrug> Raw cabbage on hamburger would be fine, along with slices of raw tomato and onion...Vidalia, of course. I don't like cooked cabbage, but I know a lot of people put it on hot dogs...krauts, right? Personally, I'd rather have my cole slaw on the side.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:44:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
Check this one out...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/WorldTemplateBZA1.GIF<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:25:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <BR>
> I mean the English have occupied my homeland for over 600 years, & only<BR>
> recently have given us the right to self-rule.<BR>
<BR>
No they haven't.  Scotland was invaded by (and invaded!) England several<BR>
times, with extensive periods in which the two states were entirely<BR>
independent of each other.<BR>
<BR>
In addition, Scotland was pretty much self-governing up until 1707 or so,<BR>
complete with its own, nominally separate, army.  It was _actually_<BR>
independent up until Cromwell stomped them.<BR>
<BR>
> Am I upset that the Scotish Royal Family was put to the axe by the Brits?<BR>
 <BR>
Are you talking about Mary Queen of Scots?  Her son James VI was made<BR>
Elizabeth of England's heir.  Or do you mean Charles I?  _Two_ of his sons<BR>
followed him on the throne.  Even when William of Orange grabbed the<BR>
thrones of England and Scotland, he did it jointly with his wife:  Mary<BR>
Stuart.  Queen Anne was a Stuart.  The Hannoverian monarchs got their claim<BR>
to the throne through a Stuart lineage.  <BR>
<BR>
> By the grace of god I am a Highlander, & I will never surrender my rights<BR>
> to pick a fight with anyone I want.<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever wondered _why_ Scotland disappeared as an independent state? <BR>
Here is a clue:  the Scottish state was never able to crush the<BR>
Highlanders.  To bring civilisation to Scotland required English<BR>
assistance.  <BR>
<BR>
The Highlanders, particularly the Jacobite/Catholic clans, destroyed<BR>
Scotland.  May they rot in hell.<BR>
<BR>
BTW:  My grandfather was a Catholic from Glasgow.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:25:14 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <BR>
> From: Steven Hudson <BR>
> >  I very much doubt that anyone has seriously claimed that US help was<BR>
> >  trivial, although the case could be made that the UK quite possibly<BR>
> > could have won with-out their active help.<BR>
> <BR>
>     How?  Lets face it, the UK could have held off the Germans until<BR>
> Doomsday, but they could never have fought a protracted war, without<BR>
> active help from somewhare.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that the Soviet Union was doing most of the fighting from '41<BR>
onwards.  <BR>
<BR>
In addition, a very large amount of the "British" war effort was carried by<BR>
the Empire, particularly India.  Places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand<BR>
and South Africa were busily tooling up for military production, too.<BR>
<BR>
> >  I'd want to check specific figures, but broadly speaking the UK didn't<BR>
> >need US food imports - they could always buy them somewhere else.<BR>
> <BR>
>     Where?  The US was & is the worlds breadbasket.<BR>
<BR>
Oh please, spare us this kind of nonsense.  <BR>
<BR>
Let's go through the list again:  Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South<BR>
Africa, India,...<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:24:46 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <BR>
> The Free Tanoose Student League, which is not associated with the actual<BR>
> TFL, but is instead typical of the "outraged younf liberal" groups found<BR>
> on many college campuses.  The FTSL engages in civil disobedience,<BR>
> blocking recruiting stations, raising funds to defend accused TFL<BR>
> members.  Mostly middle class kids getting a kick out of being "radical."<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there weren't at least some TFL cells<BR>
inside this outfit.  If not, there would probably be some similar other<BR>
organisation which is TFL-led.<BR>
<BR>
I'm just judging this from what I know of places like the Philippines and<BR>
so on, where the guerrilla groups almost invariably maintain non-military<BR>
organisations too.<BR>
<BR>
The other thing to remember is that opposition groups tend to split.  It's<BR>
quite likely that there are four or five different groups of<BR>
pro-independence Tanoosian students, plus as many groups of pro-Vilisan<BR>
students.  <BR>
<BR>
Just to make life interesting, of course, the pro-TFL groups are likely to<BR>
be at least semi-underground.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:00:45 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
...<BR>
>Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
>Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
>I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
><BR>
>Do you think I would have gotten more money if I sold them individually?<BR>
<BR>
  B:6 $12, A:13 (water-damaged) $8. Hmm, bundling seems contra-indicated.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:30:39 -0500<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In the Pacific, we had marines and we had nukes. Spoken as an US Army Sgt.,<BR>
I'm not sure which was really more important in the end.<BR>
<BR>
The will to win did exist in the Imperial Army; others had an even larger<BR>
will however. Just look to Iwo Jima (ignore the statue; while true, it's<BR>
only part of the story.) to see this in action. Pure will won that battle.<BR>
<BR>
You can bombard an island (obTrav: Planet) into utter nothingness. But<BR>
determined defenders will still be there for determined attackers to find<BR>
the hard way. <BR>
<BR>
Even better Obtrav: Solomani Rim/Sol/Terra/Phoenix Down Port 2nd Quarter of<BR>
1102...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 5/21/00 3:46 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:46:03<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
> <BR>
> At 02:40 AM 5/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese<BR>
>> were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
> <BR>
> No, we won there too.  We had the will to follow through with our attacks,<BR>
> and force the surrender on our terms or no surrender, but conquest.<BR>
> <BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2471<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2472</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2472<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: The Landgrab: Regina/Regina<BR>
RE: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
RE: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Roc: WW1 Films<BR>
[Fwd: How do they do this? (from kaycee kati duncan to Sara & Benny )]<BR>
Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
Megatraveller strike<BR>
Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
Re: WWI<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:33:20 -0500<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
Shrug. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd have bid up to $20 each for<BR>
those. That would have been $60.<BR>
<BR>
YMMV; obviously.<BR>
<BR>
on 5/21/00 3:46 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 14:42:28 -0400<BR>
> From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
> <BR>
>> So, if you've got a set of a rare OOP game and two supplements/<BR>
>> expansions for it then you're better off to sell them as the three<BR>
>> separate items?<BR>
>> <BR>
> I'd also be interested in this question. I've sold two bundles of Traveller<BR>
> items on eBay (and I'm currently selling a third). Here's what I got<BR>
> for them:<BR>
> <BR>
> First bundle: 3 FASA adventures, Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars,<BR>
> Ordeal on Eshaar and Rescue on Galatea, all in excellent condition.<BR>
> I got $41 in the end.<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:32:52 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <red@europa.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 4:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Never watch ANY medical show with members of the medical profession!<BR>
> My husband's a respiratory therapist, and every time I watch anything<BR>
> that shows a patient hooked up to a ventilator it's time to play<BR>
> 'which vent is that?', which is followed immediately by "he's not<BR>
> taped up enough".<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Or military enthusiasts!  "That's a Soviet T-34 model they built that Tiger<BR>
body over!!" or in earlier war movies, they used Pattons and the like<BR>
out-right as Tigers or "Panzers."<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:33:19 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
only sneak attack on American Soil.<<BR>
<BR>
Pearl Harbor was not American soil. Hawaii was a territory at the time, not<BR>
a state.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:45:21 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 10:15 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > When you make a film in a  country, you make<BR>
> > it for the people in that country, not for the people in other<BR>
countries.<BR>
><BR>
> Not entirely true.<BR>
> Most of the films made in New Zealand are made for the US.<BR>
> <grin><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Funny, same for us here in Oz too...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:54:06 -0500<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Feh, you Scotts keep whining about the few years the Brits have held you<BR>
down. That (*^&%$ Edward got us Welsh bent over the fence for 800 or so<BR>
'bout now. And we just got self rule too...<BR>
<BR>
(The last Prince of Wales died in 1282, for example...  :)<BR>
<BR>
(And Plbzzzt to anyone who takes _any_ of this centuries old s*%^ seriously)<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 5/21/00 3:46 PM, Traveller-digest at<BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:37:51 -0700<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> <BR>
>>> I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression<BR>
>>> that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Indeed, I got the impression that most Zhodani are fairly peaceful, nice<BR>
>> folks.  Of course, the ones we meet in our games are usually military, so<BR>
>> they're a little different.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> You can be peaceful, nice folks & still be arrogant.  Just look at the<BR>
> English.<BR>
> Now I like the English, they are peaceful, nice folks, who are still a<BR>
> bit arrogant.  Of course I am a Scotsman, but that should not really make a<BR>
> difference, should it?  I mean the English have occupied my homeland for<BR>
> over 600 years, & only recently have given us the right to self-rule.<BR>
> I mean am I upset that Scotland is part of the UK & we have to kiss the<BR>
> @$$ of a dried up queen & her inbreed children?  Am I upset that the Scotish<BR>
> Royal Family was put to the axe by the Brits?  Hell yes, I am, on both<BR>
> counts.  I am a Scotsman, born free by god, I will not bend a knee to<BR>
> anyone.  By the grace of god I am a Highlander, & I will never surrender my<BR>
> rights to pick a fight with anyone I want.<BR>
> And, do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire?  Because<BR>
> god doesn't trust the English in the Dark.<BR>
> <BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 18:57:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Landgrab: Regina/Regina<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At last, we have completed our web site with the Regina/Regina Landgrab<BR>
> information! <BR>
><BR>
> It has sections on "The Cannon" (all versions of Traveller),<BR>
<BR>
Unless you are referring to an artillery piece, rather than the<BR>
accepted collection of relevant rules, the word you want is "canon"<BR>
(also check related term "canonical")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:21:36 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
<BR>
> > Nope, HTML was originally designed to be a simplified SGML<BR>
> > designed for _structuring_ docuuments, not laying them out.<BR>
><BR>
> Not true, Frank, and you should know better.<BR>
<BR>
It is true, and I do know better than most people.<BR>
<BR>
I'm currently involved on the fringes of the UN/CEFACT ebXML working group<BR>
and the SOAP specification, as well as delivering training and presentations<BR>
on this subject to everybody from CEOs to web-developers with many years<BR>
experience. I am more knowledgeable on this subject than anyone I have<BR>
personally met, other than a few presenters at internatinal conferences.<BR>
<BR>
> HTML is a _subset_ of SGML  and is designed for _presentation_<BR>
<BR>
True, but I was not arguing about what it _is_ designed for, I was arguing<BR>
about what it _was_ designed for.  It was designed, just as SGML & XML, for<BR>
handling data (specifically, textual data) structure & content.<BR>
<BR>
HTML originally specified only structure ( </FONT><FONT  SIZE=6 PTSIZE=20><BR>
<BR>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>,<BR>
, etc ) and content.<BR>
<BR>
Presentation (i.e: the actual fonts chosen for these tags ) was supposed to<BR>
be at the discretion of the user or the display tool, be it a browser,<BR>
character-terminal or a laser printer.<BR>
<BR>
The only bit of presentation-related mark-up was the inclusion of the<BR>
<LISTING> tag to specifically imply that the text itself contained<BR>
formatting that should be presented to the user as provided in a<BR>
non-proportional font.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a reference to the original specification :<BR>
http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/MarkUp.htm<BR>
l<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> in the same way that XML is a subset of SGML and designed<BR>
> for data _structure_  and _content_ handling.<BR>
<BR>
True<BR>
<BR>
> SGML is more capable than either, but does _not_ mean that<BR>
> either were intended to achieve the same objectives as SGML.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that just because they are subsets of SGML does not neccessarily<BR>
mean they were intended for the same purpose.<BR>
<BR>
However, if you actually read the intentions the two major authors of these<BR>
langauges had for the languages (Berners-Lee for HTML, and Bozak for XML)<BR>
you'll see that the intentions were to provide similar functionality to SGML<BR>
but simplified so that the tools and viewers would not have to be so<BR>
complicated.<BR>
<BR>
From the original document :<BR>
" Logical Markup<BR>
 It is required that HTML be a common language between all platforms. This<BR>
implies no device-specific markup, or anything which requires control over<BR>
fonts or colors, for example. This is in keeping with the SGML ideal. "<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Also, of the languages you name above, only ECMAScript can<BR>
> > actually be considered a _standard_ as it is the only one<BR>
> > released by an official standards body.<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, Frank, but you are wrong again. XHTML has been accepted as<BR>
> standard by W3C for the last several weeks, CSSSL1 and CSSSL2 are<BR>
> accepted as _draft_ standards (from SGML) for improved CSS, XML has a<BR>
> raft of accepted standards including XML itself, XLM DTD (not Schema<BR>
> yet) XSLT (but not XSL) and others. ECMAScript as you say is a widely<BR>
> known standard but _is_ implemented on Netscape 6 Preview Release.<BR>
<BR>
You don't need to apologize, and I'm not wrong <grin>.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing issued by W3C is a _standard_, because the W3C, like the IETF, is<BR>
not an official standards body, and are thus not _able_ to issue standards.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that W3C Recommendations carry effectively the same importance as<BR>
standards when it comes to the web, all I was saying is they are not<BR>
_actually_ standards. Go and look at the wording of the documents on their<BR>
web-site if you don't belive me.<BR>
<BR>
For example, XSLT is titled  :  "XSL Transformations (XSLT) Version 1.0 W3C<BR>
Recommendation 16 November 1999"<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the XHTML 1.0 Recommendation was accepted by the W3C on 26th January,<BR>
so it's been available for more than the "last several weeks" <grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:28:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: eBay (Selling Traveller Materials?)<BR>
<BR>
> I'd also be interested in this question. I've sold two bundles of<BR>
> Traveller items on eBay (and I'm currently selling a third). Here's what I<BR>
got<BR>
> for them:<BR>
><BR>
> First bundle: 3 FASA adventures, Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars,<BR>
> Ordeal on Eshaar and Rescue on Galatea, all in excellent condition.<BR>
> I got $41 in the end.<BR>
<BR>
That was pretty good. almost $13 each. Though I jhave seen them go a bit<BR>
higher than that individually.<BR>
<BR>
> Second bundle: 12 LBBs, including books 1-6, Supplements 3 & 10,<BR>
> Double Adventure 5, Adventure 13, and best of the JTAS volumes 1 & 2.<BR>
> I got $61 for the whole deal.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you think I would have gotten more money if I sold them individually?<BR>
<BR>
IMO $61 for 12 LBBs is cheap if they were in excellent condition, it's only<BR>
about $5 each.<BR>
<BR>
Some of them (such as Merchant Prince) would definitely have sold for more.<BR>
Others might not have made $5, depending on demand at the time. It's a<BR>
toss-up between<BR>
getting rid of all of them at lower effective prices, or making more for<BR>
individual items, but maybe not selling all of them.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:38:10 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert, because I don't wargame Traveller I'm not especially interested in big warships.  The only ships that really interest me are PC-sized ships and B2 does that...so does QSDS, of course, but that's FFS in sheep's clothing. <g><BR>
<BR>
C'mon, Eris, admit it.  While you may prefer that _most_ ships<BR>
encountered in YTU are PC-sized ships, you're just _itching_ for a<BR>
reason for your PCs to encounter some monstrously huge warship, such as<BR>
a _Tigress_ or a _Montana_, just to know that your players will have to<BR>
report to the Skivvie Exchange Station.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:47:31 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: WW1 Films<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 6:24 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: WW1 Films<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think you will fond many on that subject have been made, but the<BR>
majority<BR>
> > probably before or around the WWII era.  I think between the wars, they<BR>
were<BR>
> > pumped out and the quality of remaining stock isn't that good now, so we<BR>
> > just don't see them aired, which I personally feel, is sad.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > -- The Roc<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, this is true, I meant /current/ films. Matthew Bond posted a list<BR>
(and<BR>
> I flagged it) that surprised me, as far as how many had actually been<BR>
made.<BR>
> I must check some of them out, but I would like to see a modern film cover<BR>
> the era.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, I'd have to agree with you there.  The Blue Max, All's Quiet, and a<BR>
handful of other "modern" WWI films don't make up any kind of decent<BR>
percentage.  I'd also like to see some earlier movies restored if not remade<BR>
(I understand some would be pretty lame if "remade"), but I can only watch<BR>
Sargent York so many time a year, and it was restored.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 07:51:06 -0700<BR>
From: "B. Mallory" <bmallory@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: [Fwd: How do they do this? (from kaycee kati duncan to Sara & Benny )]<BR>
<BR>
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(PDT)<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:48:31 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <200005170448.AAA26466@127.0.0.1><BR>
To: Sara & Benny  <bmallory@earthlink.net><BR>
From: kaycee kati duncan <Plumpro1@cs.com><BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:56:39 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Robert Snyder <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 6:17 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I couldn't help but just jump into the fray.<BR>
<BR>
Me either :^)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Independence Day is just one movie that portrays the USA as saviors of the<BR>
world.<BR>
><BR>
> Frankly, we have to look at a much larger trend.  That of the British<BR>
saving the world!!!<BR>
><BR>
> Sir James Bond, British secret agent extroidinaire (sp), has saved the<BR>
world countless times<BR>
> (although not from aliens).  The series is an American production, but it<BR>
features a British<BR>
> super hero.  It is an example of the homage that Americans place on all<BR>
things British.  Sure,<BR>
> of course, an American could single-handedly save the world with one hand<BR>
tied behind his<BR>
> back, but the British do it with style and class.<BR>
<BR>
There's just something about JB though... Hollywood tried to usurp Her<BR>
Majesty's best with Matt Helm (which I admit to loving and watch on cable<BR>
when I can)... and they tried with Flint also (damn it, another cable<BR>
drawcard when it's on), but they just never cut the grade...<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I'm not into the other shit on this topic, so I shan't comment on it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:00:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Megatraveller strike<BR>
<BR>
Just had to come on and crow. Went to my FLGS and was trolling through the<BR>
used stuff, hoping to find some TNE stuff. The owner asked me what I was<BR>
looking for and I told him any Traveller not T4. I picked up the MT boxed<BR>
set, Rats & Cats, The Vilani & Vargr book. A good haul, all for about $38.<BR>
Did I get a good deal?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:21:42 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Munchkins in systems<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
> >Nothing beats a troll with a machine gun, though  ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
> <BR>
> An elf with a bazooka?<BR>
<BR>
Or a hobbit with low blood sugar....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:25:45 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 20 May 2000, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/20/00 1:23 AM, legate@futureone.com issued forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Bubble & Squeak...Mashed Potatoes & Cabbage.<BR>
> > Toad in the Hole...a very nice pastry.<BR>
> <BR>
> These are new to me, anyone know the etymology of these terms? "Banger" for<BR>
> sausage is odd enough, but "Bubble & Squeak"? Where does that get it's name?<BR>
> And why would one name a pastry after an amphibian?<BR>
<BR>
OOh OOh I know that one (Watching 'Two Fat Ladies' is good for something<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
'Bubble and squeak' is named for the sights and sounds it makes as it's<BR>
cooked, since it's essentially mashed potatoes and cabbage fried in a<BR>
pan, the bubble and squeak is from hot air and water vapor escaping from<BR>
the frying surface.<BR>
<BR>
You also have to use lard, according to the TFL's.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:36:55 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Request for help with maps<BR>
<BR>
I can get you a subsector map in Illustrator. <BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 21 May 2000, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anybody have a blank world template (preferably in Freehand or <BR>
> Illustrator format)? Ditto for subsector and sector maps?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:27:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This leads to a whole other area of<BR>
> discussion that I can't remeber if its ever been covered(probably so since<BR>
> every other topic imaginable has been coverered 8^>) but it seems most epic<BR>
> Sci-Fi uses Nautical terms for rank and crew position and title, and not Air<BR>
> Force.  Not suprising really since the US Air Force doesn't have a good<BR>
> track record with traditions, change being the only constant, but I do know<BR>
> that at least in the United States the AIr Force is taking the lead, not the<BR>
> navy, with Space Command et al, although its all rocket science at this<BR>
> point.  8^>   Surely the RAF has some great traditions at least.  Not sure<BR>
> what this has any real bearing on projecting into the future what things<BR>
> will be called etc, but I am still partial to Air Force terminology,<BR>
> naturally.<BR>
<BR>
The usual, and quite reasonable, logic for going with Navy versus Air<BR>
Force terminology is that the Air Force doesn't do missions that last<BR>
for weeks to years, often out of touch with higher commonand for much<BR>
of the mission.<BR>
<BR>
The Navy has done that sort of thing for *centuries*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 19:48:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Mark Preston wrote:-<BR>
><BR>
>>I agree - HTML standards are for display _formatting_ (presentation,<BR>
>>not for applications) but browser applications are not _intended_ to<BR>
>>use HTML standards. They are intended to use _Internet_ standards,<BR>
>>including XHTML, CSSL, XML and ECMAScript, to name but a few. ActiveX<BR>
>>uses COM+ *Microsoft* standards (NOT public standards) and one of the<BR>
>>resolution judgements from the DoJ court case is that Microsoft should<BR>
>>adopt (or adapt COM+ to use) DOM standards. That would immediately<BR>
>>mean that the simple use of ActiveX as in IE5 would be no longer<BR>
>>available. Consequently, it is shortsighted in the extreme for<BR>
>>software to be written to require a *Microsoft* browser rather than a<BR>
>>standard browser - and the W3C strongly advise and support the use of<BR>
>>Netscape 6 Preview Release 1 or later as the most suitable *standard*<BR>
>>browser for browser applications.<BR>
><BR>
> I've bite my tongue on this topic for long enough, this mail was the last<BR>
> straw. In light of all this Microsoft bashing I would point out, whether<BR>
> Microsoft's motives a right or wrong, that if it hadn't been for that<BR>
> company the PC home market would not exist. We'd all be using Macs or,<BR>
> heaven forbid, Atari STs and Amigas and the PC market would still be limited<BR>
> to offices only. Until another company comes up with a COMMERCIALLY viable<BR>
> OS, and no matter what the American Justice Department says, the PC market<BR>
> needs Microsoft.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, CP/M was doing just fine until Digital Research screwed up<BR>
and pissed off IBM causing IBM to ask Microsoft if they could come up<BR>
with a CP/M "clone". If DR had supplied the OS rather than MS, I expect<BR>
we'd have an OS with fewer bugs, and that was a lot more "open" (going<BR>
by DR's behavior up to that time, and afterwards).<BR>
<BR>
We'd also have multi-platform support.<BR>
<BR>
> However, I take great exception at you tone regarding the fact that my<BR>
> program requires IE5. I would point out that the program does not require<BR>
> IE5, but requires the SHWDCVW.DLL which forms part of that package. Users<BR>
> with IE4 or IE5 will already have a copy of this DLL on their machine, but<BR>
> those who favour another browser simply need to install and register the<BR>
> DLL.<BR>
><BR>
> Note that H&E is written for a Microsoft OS using a Microsoft programming<BR>
> language. To provide the functionality that I required the only option<BR>
> available to me was to use Microsoft's Internet component. If you can point<BR>
> me in the direction of a VB component that  provides COM+ internet<BR>
> capabilities then please do so.<BR>
<BR>
Why does it need *any* internet capabilities?<BR>
<BR>
All it should need is the ability to display text and graphics, and<BR>
accept user input. Standard GUI stuff that should *not* be linking to<BR>
any "internet" capability.<BR>
<BR>
It'd be rather nice if it was possible to run the program under OS/2,<BR>
if only in a "Win-OS/2" session. But use of that DLL makes that<BR>
impossible. And before you object that you don't support other OSes,<BR>
please note that OS/2 supports Win-32 standard up until version 1.25.<BR>
After that MS changed the standard in a way that made it incompatible<BR>
with low level OS/2 functions (and there's no way they *couldn't* have<BR>
known this)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:54:39 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WWI<BR>
<BR>
The WWI movie with Kirk Douglas was Paths of Glory. There's also the<BR>
excellent Lighthorsemen.  Hell's Angels, Blue Max, and Wings are pretty<BR>
for aerial sequences, but all that great as films.  The only good aerial<BR>
WW1 film I like is Errol Flynn's Dawn Patrol.  Very dark and gritty.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr.<BR>
<BR>
WW1 tends to be bemusing for me.  One of my greatuncles (I was named for<BR>
him) fought in the AEF and died of mustard gas.  On my maternal side, my<BR>
great-grandfather was an official of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 00-05-18 19:29:45 EDT, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> <<<BR>
>  Via electronic medium on 5/18/00 8:55 AM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
> <BR>
>  > I agree, although I don't think that they should stick to ancient Rome. We<BR>
>  > need lots of big sweeping historical epics with really vast battle scenes.<BR>
> <BR>
>  I would like to see a movie on the First World War, a period seemingly<BR>
>  glossed over by Hollywood. >><BR>
> <BR>
> I can think of four right off the top of my head, buthere are doubtless more:<BR>
> <BR>
> _All Quiet on the Western Front_, _Sergeant York_, _The Rainbow Division_,<BR>
> _Gallipoli_, and that movie with Kirk Douglas as a French regimental<BR>
> commander that is accused of mutiny.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not as many as WWII, by any means.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:59:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 20 May 00, at 2:21, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities<BR>
>> of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
><BR>
> Not to mention free access to British technology - Penicillin and <BR>
> microwave radar in particular.<BR>
<BR>
Radar went both ways. The US finally had to send over a couple of<BR>
people when the Brit radar experts were going *nuts* trying to<BR>
duplicate the magnetron tubes the US had invented. <BR>
<BR>
They built units from plans. They didn't work. They got sent working<BR>
units, which they tested and found to work. They disassembled them the<BR>
working units and compared the parts to the ones they'd built. Every<BR>
part was identical. They resassembled the sample units, which now<BR>
failed to work. <BR>
<BR>
When the experts arrived from the US, they proceeded to assemble a unit<BR>
from British made parts, which worked when tested. You see, none of the<BR>
US folks had thought to mention that they tightened the bolts holding<BR>
the unit together with an 18" extension on the wrench! Ther British had<BR>
merely tightened the bolts enough to ensure a good seal for when they<BR>
pumped the unit to vacuum. <BR>
<BR>
Seems the "over-torquing" distorted the components just enough to make<BR>
the tube function....<BR>
<BR>
OBtrav: trying to duplicate captured alien technology, even *with*<BR>
captured manuals is going to run into these sort of details that the<BR>
engineers assumed "everybody knows". And the PCs are going to go nuts.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2472<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2473<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
Somem 3pc area (Long)<BR>
Somem 3pc area pt2(Long)<BR>
Re: Re : Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Megatraveller strike<BR>
Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Weapons Website<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Save yourselves<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: WWI<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Browser Standards<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:42:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: ST officers<BR>
<BR>
>The usual, and quite reasonable, logic for going with Navy versus Air<BR>
>Force terminology is that the Air Force doesn't do missions that last<BR>
>for weeks to years, often out of touch with higher commonand for much<BR>
>of the mission.<BR>
><BR>
>The Navy has done that sort of thing for *centuries*.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Oh contraire, we just have the good sense to not LIVE on the aircraft, we<BR>
stay in hotels with room service and cable TV.  8^)<BR>
But your point is well taken.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:59:22 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: Somem 3pc area (Long)<BR>
<BR>
Some random number crunching:<BR>
<BR>
Very basic survey of systems within 3 parsecs of Somem (3020)<BR>
Spinward Marches. Info from Sp March Campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Systems counted:14 (all in Sp March. 0119 to 0122 in Deneb<BR>
are empty) System density consistent with a scattered pattern<BR>
14systems/37hexes=38%<BR>
<BR>
Population, guestimate:  643,424,157<BR>
By comparison, this is roughly 1/2 the amount of sophots in<BR>
present day China (PRC)<BR>
Breakdown:<BR>
Vanejen  543,000,000  88% of area<BR>
Cipatewe  60,000,000  10% of area<BR>
Heroni        8,000,000    1% of area<BR>
Gitosy        6,000,000    .9% of area<BR>
All others      424,157    .1% of area<BR>
Closest Hi pop worlds are Mora (3124) and Natoko (2120)<BR>
both 4 parsecs away.<BR>
<BR>
Government breakdowns:<BR>
4 corporate types (1 of which is interdicted)      31%<BR>
3 anarchy            (1 interdicted, 1 landgrabed)  23%<BR>
2 Captive/Colony                                             15%<BR>
All others (with 1 landgrabed)                           31%<BR>
Top 3 governments by population<BR>
Vanejen   Ftech<BR>
Cipatawe Impersonal Bureaucracy<BR>
Heroni     Corporate<BR>
CP Rhylanor (2716) 6 pcs, Cx Mora (3124) 4 pcs away.<BR>
<BR>
Law levels average 3.29  Highest at Cipatwe (A)<BR>
Tech levels average 6.07 Highest at Somem and Tacaxeb (B)<BR>
Starport average (C)  Highest at Cipatwe and Gitosy (B)<BR>
Nearest Type A Starports are at Mora and Fosey (2621)<BR>
both 4 pcs away.<BR>
Trade Classifications breakdown (top 5)<BR>
Ni  71% of systems (10)<BR>
Lo  43% of systems (6)<BR>
De  21% of systems (3)<BR>
Ag  14% of systems (2)<BR>
Po  14% of systems (2)<BR>
All others 7% of systems (1 each in 5 separate types)<BR>
<BR>
Please correct me if I've made any errors here.<BR>
I thought this might be interesting to any landgrabers<BR>
or interested observers. I am still in the later category :-I<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:59:36 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: Somem 3pc area pt2(Long)<BR>
<BR>
Specific references of systems in 3pc radius of Somem<BR>
(3020)<BR>
<BR>
Gerome  Rice Paper<BR>
Gitosy    Reference Book, Beltstrike pg9<BR>
Vanejen Adv2 (all) and Adv3 (in small parts)<BR>
Rorise    Sup9 Fighting Ships pg44<BR>
457-973 Sp March campaign, pg 20<BR>
<BR>
Also of interest, Sup11 Library Data N-Z pg39<BR>
Shows major branch in area from Nadrin to 457-973<BR>
(c. 300) and a longer branch extending through the<BR>
rest of the area (c. 500) Interestingly, there were no<BR>
branches extending into the area during (c. 400)<BR>
<BR>
I do not have the following on hand but I assume<BR>
they might also have information in this area.<BR>
Alien Realms<BR>
GT: Behind the Claw<BR>
<BR>
I have not as yet found any specific referances regarding<BR>
Somem (I'm real interested in it). Any assistanst on this<BR>
matter would be greatly appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
I think I can scrounge up 1 or 2 Cr for it anyway ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:21:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> Fugu. There's a small organ that contains a neurotoxin, and if it is<BR>
>> nicked while removing it, it may contaminate the rest of the fish with<BR>
>> enough to kill you. But even with it removed, there's a tiny bit of the<BR>
>> toxin in *all* of the fish. Enough to give a sort of tingling<BR>
>> sensation, or so I'm told.<BR>
><BR>
> Tetrodotoxin is concentrated in the liver, kidneys and gonads of the<BR>
> puffer (toad) fish.  If the remainder of the flesh is properly<BR>
> prepared, the eater will get enough of a dose to develop<BR>
> paraesthesiae ('pins and needles') around the mouth and in the<BR>
> fingertips.  Fun stuff.<BR>
<BR>
I'll pass, thanks. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> and (on cassava/manioc) :-<BR>
>> My guess is that they were harvesting the<BR>
>> stuff to use the *poison* (which may be rotenone or something similar),<BR>
><BR>
> Nothing so obscure (rotenone is a pesticide which works by inhibiting<BR>
> the synthesis of reducing equivalents - IIRC NAD-> NADH+).<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, natives extract it or something similar from a plant and<BR>
scatter it across the surface of lakes/streams, where it stuns or kills<BR>
fish, which float to the surface and are gathered up. Sort of like<BR>
fishing with dynamite, but quieter.<BR>
<BR>
> Manioc contains good old HCN (the nitrile groups are parts of<BR>
> proteins in the vegetable).<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Combining that with the bit about cyanide not affecting organisms<BR>
with hemerythin(sp) based blood, one should be careful with native<BR>
foods on planets where the natives have that sort of blood. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:33:21 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
Nachos, Spatlase, and The Empire Strikes Back.<BR>
It doesn't get any better than this.<BR>
<BR>
I love Europe; keep shipping that wine over ;-)<BR>
Make Drunk, Not Waaarrllf!<BR>
<BR>
ps Thanks for TMLs helping me on ICQ and<BR>
Structure comp q&a stuff. I really appreciate it.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Rosberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:16:49 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Megatraveller strike<BR>
<BR>
"Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> asks:<BR>
<BR>
>Just had to come on and crow. Went to my FLGS and was trolling through the<BR>
>used stuff, hoping to find some TNE stuff. The owner asked me what I was<BR>
>looking for and I told him any Traveller not T4. I picked up the MT boxed<BR>
>set, Rats & Cats, The Vilani & Vargr book. A good haul, all for about $38.<BR>
>Did I get a good deal?<BR>
 <BR>
 The two MT Alien Modules are a fine deal all by themselves, since they were <BR>
nearly that much as a pair when in print...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:21:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/21/00 at 09:38 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rupert, because I don't wargame Traveller I'm not especially interested in big warships.  The only ships that really interest me are PC-sized ships and B2 does that...so does QSDS, of course, but that's FFS in sheep's clothing. <g><BR>
<BR>
>C'mon, Eris, admit it.  While you may prefer that _most_ ships<BR>
>encountered in YTU are PC-sized ships, you're just _itching_ for a reason<BR>
>for your PCs to encounter some monstrously huge warship, such as a<BR>
>_Tigress_ or a _Montana_, just to know that your players will have to<BR>
>report to the Skivvie Exchange Station.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I don't have to resort to big ships for that. I can do that with a pipe bomb and a laser pistol. <g>  <BR>
<BR>
Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if it's big enough then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:36:37 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
For all you visitors to TravellerCentral <www.travellercentral.com>, I have<BR>
moved the weapons section to it's own website.  you can now visit the<BR>
Mercenary's Guide to Weapons at http://weapons.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
I've only posted about 20% of what I have so far, so stay tuned.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:52:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
on 5/21/00 5:17 AM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 20:01 -0400 20/5/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>> Of course the pinnacle of English cuisine is Spotted Dick <weg><BR>
> <BR>
> Nah, Bread and Butter pudding...<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
So what the hell is spotted dog, or better yet, drowned baby?<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:46:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>>    Matt, do not get me started on finding raw cabbage on my hamburger at<BR>
>>a Burger King, when I was in England.  Though the Cole Slaw I had on a<BR>
>>hamburger at a Whimpies in South Africa was pretty good.<BR>
><BR>
><shrug> Raw cabbage on hamburger would be fine, along with slices of raw<BR>
tomato and onion...Vidalia, of course. I don't like cooked cabbage, but I<BR>
know a lot of people put it on hot dogs...krauts, right? Personally, I'd<BR>
rather have my cole slaw on the side.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You damn Heritic, & I do not mean Traveller-wise.  You do not put RAW<BR>
CABBAGE on a hamburger, it is disgusting.<BR>
    But, you are correct, kraut is a needed ingredient on a hot dog.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:50:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Yeah, well, everyone knows that in West Virginia, there are only<BR>
queers<BR>
>>& sheep, so which one are you?  A queer or a sheep?<BR>
><BR>
>Why don't you try and make a seat cover out of me and find out the hard<BR>
way?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Uh, Doug, we already did that, last year?  Remember, you were not a<BR>
sheep.  Ye gods man have your forgoten already?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:54:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    He was a Marine.  It does not matter if he was a drunkard cropduster,<BR>
he<BR>
>>was a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine.<BR>
><BR>
>Lee Harvey Oswald, United States Marine<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, he hit is target, with a bolt action rifle, quite a few times,<BR>
didn't he?  Of course he was shooting at a navy man, so I mean  that doesn't<BR>
really count, all he had to do was aim for the ego to hit.  <j/k><BR>
    Sorry, bad joke, but one I could not resist.<BR>
    Has anyone read, "The True Story of the Kenedy's", yet?  Gives some good<BR>
insights into what a Kenedy is.  Also, I enjoyed the part about how JFK got<BR>
elected, & did not want to be President, but once in office resolved to be<BR>
the best president he could be & not be controled by outside interests.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:55:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
<BR>
>>     What do you want to poison them?  I have eaten at Rosa's about 10<BR>
times,<BR>
>> & 5 times out of 10 I have had to have my stomach pumped.<BR>
><BR>
>Why on earth did you keep going back?  Going back after the first two times<BR>
>would have been reasonable, but after the third?  What were you saying<BR>
about<BR>
>Darwin earlier? <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Darwin did not have a boss who likes Rosa's.  Everytime my boss & I are<BR>
down in Tucson, he wants to eat at Rosa's & me being the good sariman I am<BR>
go with him.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:56:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>You know most marines are nice enough fellows by themselves, but put a<BR>
bunch of them together and...<g>...reminds me of a starport bar. <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I resent that.  You make us sound like Army Rangers.  One of us can be a<BR>
starport bar.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:07:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
<BR>
>In addition, a very large amount of the "British" war effort was carried by<BR>
>the Empire, particularly India.  Places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand<BR>
>and South Africa were busily tooling up for military production, too.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh please, spare us this kind of nonsense.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    South Africa had a kinda major problem, a lot of the people down there<BR>
were Nazi's durring the war & did everything they could to hurt the British<BR>
War Effort.<BR>
<BR>
>Let's go through the list again:  Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South<BR>
>Africa, India,...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand would have<BR>
had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans to help<BR>
England.  South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans &<BR>
Italians.  And, India had its own problems, internally & externally.<BR>
    My mother's side of the family is South African & I know a lot of what<BR>
was going on in South Africa at the time.  My Grandfather was not allowed to<BR>
join up with the Military at all, as he was one of the few mining engineers,<BR>
the Boer had a major fear of the Blacks, the Blacks didn't like the English,<BR>
the English were to few to help their home, but they did put a lot of Boer<BR>
into detention camps.  It was a bad situation in South Africa durring that<BR>
time.  My Grandfather would tell me stories about mining for gold to help<BR>
pay for the war effort & about how his crews would work 16 to 20 hour shifts<BR>
because they were asked to do so.  About how there was not food in the<BR>
Markets, about how the only reason they were well-fed compared to the rest<BR>
of the country was because of the freeholding, etc, etc, etc.  South Africa<BR>
was a country divided.  Blacks against Whites.  Tribe against Tribe.  Boer<BR>
against Black.  Indian against Black.  Boer against Indian.  With the<BR>
English caught in the middle.<BR>
    The Boer's thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced<BR>
bread, & many joined the South African Nazi Party & did everything they<BR>
could to hurt the English War Effort.  The only help the English had were<BR>
from the Indians & some of the Tribes, but they bearly held onto South<BR>
Africa.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:14:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
From: samwise1 <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>only sneak attack on American Soil.<<BR>
><BR>
>Pearl Harbor was not American soil. Hawaii was a territory at the time, not<BR>
>a state.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see here, YOU ARE SO TOTALY WRONG.  Pearl Harbor was an American<BR>
Military Base, therefore American Soil.  A Territory is American Soil, it<BR>
does not matter if it is a state or not, it is still part of America.  The<BR>
Hawaiians are & were American Citizens.<BR>
    Also, I hope there are to Peurto<sp> Ricans on the list to explain that<BR>
whil Peurto Rico is a Territory, they are still Americans & it is still<BR>
American Territory.  And, as such as much a part of the US as Arizona is.<BR>
    Also, while Gitmo in Cuba is on the island of Cuba, it is still American<BR>
Soil, as it is an American Military Base.  As such, if Castro ordered an<BR>
attack upon it, it would be an overt act of war.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:15:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WWI<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
>I can think of four right off the top of my head, buthere are doubtless<BR>
more:<BR>
><BR>
>_All Quiet on the Western Front_, _Sergeant York_, _The Rainbow Division_,<BR>
>_Gallipoli_, and that movie with Kirk Douglas as a French regimental<BR>
>commander that is accused of mutiny.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, of course, the "Lost Regiment".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:19:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Look at the pics of Zhodani Nobility, they look arrogant.<BR>
><BR>
>*boggle*  That's an interesting way to interpet things..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I know, but I have an interesting way of looking at things.<BR>
    Basicly, Doug, arrogance is not a bad thing, always.  For example, you<BR>
drive for Super Shuttle, right?  If I flew into where you are & got a ride<BR>
from you to my hotel, you would know how to get there, correct?  As such,<BR>
you would have the right to be arrogant.  The same way with the Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:20:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>I never had that impression, and the text in the books suggests<BR>
>otherwise; the whole point is that they have a duty to each other,<BR>
>something that arrogance would contradict/conflict with.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Geez, are we getting PC on this ML?  Being arrogant is not a bad thing<BR>
people, it is a good thing.  Arrogance is only pride in one's own self.  The<BR>
Zhodani do take pride in themselves, correct?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:30:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
<BR>
>No they haven't.  Scotland was invaded by (and invaded!) England several<BR>
>times, with extensive periods in which the two states were entirely<BR>
>independent of each other.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    We never invaded England, raided, yes, invaded no.  If we had invaded<BR>
England, then history would have been different.<BR>
<BR>
>In addition, Scotland was pretty much self-governing up until 1707 or so,<BR>
>complete with its own, nominally separate, army.  It was _actually_<BR>
>independent up until Cromwell stomped them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    English Propganda.<BR>
<BR>
>Are you talking about Mary Queen of Scots?  Her son James VI was made<BR>
>Elizabeth of England's heir.  Or do you mean Charles I?  _Two_ of his sons<BR>
>followed him on the throne.  Even when William of Orange grabbed the<BR>
>thrones of England and Scotland, he did it jointly with his wife:  Mary<BR>
>Stuart.  Queen Anne was a Stuart.  The Hannoverian monarchs got their claim<BR>
>to the throne through a Stuart lineage.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Aye, but they were not Scotish, they were English.<BR>
<BR>
>> By the grace of god I am a Highlander, & I will never surrender my rights<BR>
>> to pick a fight with anyone I want.<BR>
><BR>
>Have you ever wondered _why_ Scotland disappeared as an independent state?<BR>
>Here is a clue:  the Scottish state was never able to crush the<BR>
>Highlanders.  To bring civilisation to Scotland required English<BR>
>assistance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, do you want to know something, I am still a Highlander & I will be<BR>
one until the day I die, as my sons will be Highlanders.<BR>
    Of course to bring civilisation to Scotland, your people raped &<BR>
murdered my people.  If your civilisation is built upon a foundation of rape<BR>
& murder, how civilized are you?<BR>
<BR>
>The Highlanders, particularly the Jacobite/Catholic clans, destroyed<BR>
>Scotland.  May they rot in hell.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You sir, & I do use that term loosely, as loosely as I can, meaning a<BR>
man, have personally insulted my clan, my family, & myself, I would ask you<BR>
as a man of honor to withdraw this statement, before you start a flamewar<BR>
with me.<BR>
<BR>
>BTW:  My grandfather was a Catholic from Glasgow.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he will<BR>
be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander relatives<BR>
are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't the nice place,<BR>
but the very bad place.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:38:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Feh, you Scotts keep whining about the few years the Brits have held you<BR>
>down. That (*^&%$ Edward got us Welsh bent over the fence for 800 or so<BR>
>'bout now. And we just got self rule too...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    First thing, that is Scots, not Scotts.  Second thing, IIRC the Brits<BR>
have held down Scotland, Wales, & Ireland, the Ises of Mann for hundreds of<BR>
years, & the moment someone says word one, some has to take offense.  I find<BR>
it offensive that it took this long.  Of course, & no offense to our Irish<BR>
Brothers, if we used the Bomb & Bullet instead of the Ballet, we might have<BR>
been free a long time ago, but we decided to do things the legal & peaceful<BR>
way.  Of course that don't mean we didn't pick a few fights along the way.<BR>
Unlike the Welsh, of course you do know where the term welshing on a debt<BR>
came from?<BR>
<BR>
>(The last Prince of Wales died in 1282, for example...  :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, Wales got a new one, just not the one they wanted.<BR>
<BR>
>(And Plbzzzt to anyone who takes _any_ of this centuries old s*%^<BR>
seriously)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Tell that to the Welsh who are burning down the country homes of the<BR>
English.  Not the Irish or Scotish who have summer homes in Wales, but just<BR>
the English.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:11:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
on 5/21/00 1:39 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:19 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> He was a Marine.  It does not matter if he was a drunkard cropduster, he<BR>
>> was a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine.<BR>
> <BR>
> Lee Harvey Oswald, United States Marine<BR>
<BR>
The sniper in the texas tower Charles Whitman, US Marine.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:17:44 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Browser Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/21/00 7:21 PM, frankie@mundens.gen.nz issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Nope, HTML was originally designed to be a simplified SGML<BR>
> designed for _structuring_ docuuments, not laying them out.<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
>> Not true, Frank, and you should know better.<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
> It is true, and I do know better than most people.<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
>> Sorry, Frank, but you are wrong again. XHTML has been accepted as<BR>
>> standard by W3C for the last several weeks...<BR>
>>> ..... <BR>
<BR>
> Nothing issued by W3C is a _standard_, because the W3C, like the IETF, is<BR>
> not an official standards body, and are thus not _able_ to issue standards.<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
>> HTML is a _subset_ of SGML and is designed for _presentation_...<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
> ...I was not arguing about what it _is_ designed for, I was arguing<BR>
> about what it _was_ designed for.<BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, the XHTML 1.0 Recommendation was accepted by the W3C on 26th January,<BR>
> so it's been available for more than the "last several weeks" <grin><BR>
>>> .....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ooooh, oooh snitty! I wonder if anyone can stop polishing their credentials<BR>
and straining at gnats in this little game of one-upmanship, long enough to<BR>
appreciate the futility of arguing semantics.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
["How would you like your Standards, m'Lud? De jour or de facto, this<BR>
morning?"]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:32:21 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
>>Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese <BR>
>>were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
><BR>
>No, we won there too.  We had the will to follow through with our attacks,<BR>
>and force the surrender on our terms or no surrender, but conquest.<BR>
<BR>
Compare American POW counts in the Phillipines with Japanese POW<BR>
counts at Tarawa and Iwo Jima.  Yes, it was a cultural thing, but the<BR>
Japanese weren't known for giving up.<BR>
<BR>
How many American servicemen were willing to undertake deliberately<BR>
suicidal missions?  I don't mean men caught in tight spots doing their<BR>
jobs till the end (like Torpedo 8 at Midway), I mean go out with the<BR>
*certainty* that they wouldn't be coming back?<BR>
<BR>
We "won" the battle of wills because we smashed the Japanese to<BR>
pieces, then hit them with an awesome weapon of inconcievable power...<BR>
and then hit them with it again.  They blinked right before they would <BR>
have fallen down anyway.<BR>
<BR>
If the USA had seen Los Angeles and New York City atomized in early<BR>
1945, how much will to fight would the American leaders have been<BR>
able to gather?<BR>
<BR>
I'm an American, I love my country.  I'm very glad the Manhattan project<BR>
gave us the big stick first, because I have no illusions about who would<BR>
have won WW2 had Germany or Japan built and used it first.  That isn't<BR>
a matter of wills.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:51:18 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>New tactics & weapons always surprise your enemy, thats why they are<BR>
>new.  Old tactics & weapons never surprise your enemy, as they already <BR>
>know them.<BR>
<BR>
Well, technically they suprise them because they are new, they aren't<BR>
new because they are surprises.  And you still have situations where<BR>
a very old tactic can surprise individual soldiers.  Yes, your army knows<BR>
about Snipers, but that particular sergeant of yours was surprised by that<BR>
particular sniper behind that particular bush.<BR>
<BR>
(And since your *army* isn't surprised by the tactic of using snipers, the <BR>
survivors of that attack should have a means of dealing with that particular <BR>
sniper.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Sorta like Paratroops.  Now, they do not surprise anyone, but when they<BR>
>were first used they scared the shit out of a lot of people.<BR>
<BR>
If your paratroops aren't surprising anyone, they should stay home.<BR>
Surprising people is their job, remember? <G><BR>
<BR>
(OK, maybe not tactically, but at least operationally or strategically...)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2473<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2474<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
RE: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller Alien Races 4 <BR>
Re: Universities (was Garda-Vilis University (longish))<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
RE: Browser Standards<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Megatraveller strike<BR>
BORING! (Could we have some Trav content here?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:59:52 +0200<BR>
From: Steve Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
No no no... The helmet only makes their head LOOK swollen...<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
><BR>
>>I'd be interested to know where, in canon, you got the impression<BR>
>>that the Zhodani nobility are arrogant?<BR>
><BR>
>    Look at the pics of Zhodani Nobility, they look arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:10:55 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>    Do you forget about the Japanese Peace Movement?<BR>
<BR>
Nope.  Did you forget about the American Peace Movement?<BR>
<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>>Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese<BR>
>>were winners in was will.  They lost.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>only sneak attack on American Soil.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that's why American policy in WW2 made Hitler the #1 priority.<BR>
<BR>
Will to win seems like a label of hindsight to me.<BR>
Americans had more will to win, therefore they won.  The winning proves<BR>
they had more will to win.  Never mind that America had more modern<BR>
and more massive industry, more manpower, more technology,<BR>
more resources...yep, it was all will to win.  Here's the proof - America<BR>
won.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, that sounds kind of circular, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
<<regarding the Voltaire quote>><BR>
>Gee, could we really be speaking French?  No, I don't think so. <BR>
>England won the war against Napoelon.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and it was all through English grit and determination.  Sitting<BR>
behind a giant moat with the world's largest navy while Napoleon<BR>
bled his own armies to death elsewhere had nothing to do with it. <G><BR>
<BR>
Oh, and as for South American history - I'm very light on the subject.<BR>
Could you illuminate me with situations where tiny, powerless countries<BR>
defeated large, powerful ones through "will to win" alone?  You're sure<BR>
the little country didn't have advantages (like terrain, or outside aid,<BR>
or other niggly details like that) to make the difference with?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 04:24:32 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>Geez, are we getting PC on this ML?  Being arrogant is not a bad thing<BR>
>people, it is a good thing.  Arrogance is only pride in one's own self.  The<BR>
>Zhodani do take pride in themselves, correct?<BR>
<BR>
"Arrogance" *is* a bad thing, by the definition of the word.<BR>
<BR>
Arrogance: a feeling or impression of superiority manifested in an<BR>
overbearing manner or presumptious (that is, unjustified) claims.<BR>
<BR>
Arrogant: exaggerating or or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth<BR>
or importance in an overbearing manner.<BR>
<BR>
(Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary for both)<BR>
<BR>
Pride in one's own self and accomplishments is one thing.  Arrogance<BR>
is pride taken to excess, usually with a nice dose of self-delusion.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:30:03 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
> Noted.  Associate: 2 years; Bachelor: 4 years; Master: 2 years<BR>
> (cumulative with bachelor's); Doctor: 2 years (cumulative with<BR>
> master's).  Note that, except for the associate degree, these correspond<BR>
> with the college and graduate school terms in T4.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anyone have any ideas for Vilani (or other) equivalents?<BR>
<BR>
How about the English equivalents<BR>
<BR>
Bachelor 3 years<BR>
Masters 1 year<BR>
Doctorate 3 years (usually allowed another extra year to write up<BR>
(therefore 4 years), and is not necessary to have a masters degree to do)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:04 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Eat, drink and be merry<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><shrug> Raw cabbage on hamburger would be fine, along with slices of<BR>
> raw tomato and onion...Vidalia, of course. I don't like cooked cabbage,<BR>
> but I know a lot of people put it on hot dogs...krauts, right?<BR>
> Personally, I'd rather have my cole slaw on the side.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd rather have it in one of those little tubs so I can<BR>
give it away without touching the stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:54:24 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
...<BR>
>>  I very much doubt that anyone has seriously claimed that US help was<BR>
trivial, <BR>
>>although the case could be made that the UK quite possibly could have won<BR>
with-<BR>
>>out their active help.<BR>
><BR>
>    How?  Lets face it, the UK could have held off the Germans until<BR>
>Doomsday, but they could never have fought a protracted war, without active<BR>
>help from somewhare.<BR>
<BR>
  So? They had plenty of help coming to them, and they could always buy more.<BR>
No country would have been able to fight WW2 as well as they did without<BR>
external aid - the Japs were forced to try towards the end, and that was just<BR>
pathetic, unsurprisingly.<BR>
<BR>
>>  I'd want to check specific figures, but broadly speaking the UK didn't<BR>
>>need US food imports - they could always buy them somewhere else.<BR>
><BR>
>    Where?  The US was & is the worlds breadbasket.<BR>
<BR>
  Have you tried reading any books without the pop-up art?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:02:51 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
>Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand would have<BR>
>had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans to help<BR>
>England.  South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans &<BR>
>Italians.  And, India had its own problems, internally & externally.<BR>
<BR>
I think the plans mostly involved sailing through seas that were largely<BR>
devoid of enemy warships, not marching overland towards Europe.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:17:21 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Tell that to the Welsh who are burning down the country homes of the<BR>
>English.  Not the Irish or Scotish who have summer homes in Wales, but just<BR>
>the English.<BR>
<BR>
	"Come home to a real fire, buy a house in Wales."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<quoted from the "Not the Nine O'Clock News" programme, which parodied<BR>
 the National Coal Board's then advertising slogan.><BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:05:01 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Legate Legion [mailto:legate@futureone.com]<BR>
 <BR>
>     Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a <BR>
> papist, well, he will<BR>
> be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my <BR>
> Highlander relatives<BR>
> are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't <BR>
> the nice place,<BR>
> but the very bad place.<BR>
<BR>
The Gorbals? <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:37:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/21/00 11:14 PM, legate@futureone.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Lets see here, YOU ARE SO TOTALY WRONG.<BR>
<BR>
If you must be so rude, do you need to "yell" as well? It is /totally/<BR>
annoying. It is a question of semantics, and if you are going to be all that<BR>
picky, double-check your spelling.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I'm drawing a blank, this thread has wandered too far for me. That<BR>
last map I posted a link to though... Odd idea I had to see made manifest.<BR>
The equator runs through a central row of hxes unlike either DGP or GT<BR>
standards, and the scale extends to "F" at the poles. That gives 1002 spaces<BR>
at C/50 scale, so each is about a tenth of a percent of surface area<BR>
(100=hydro-rating 1). Any thoughts?<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/WorldTemplateBZA1.GIF<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:58:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 2:37 AM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The equator runs through a central row of hxes unlike either DGP or GT<BR>
> standards, and the scale extends to "F" at the poles. That gives 1002 spaces<BR>
> at C/50 scale, so each is about a tenth of a percent of surface area<BR>
> (100=hydro-rating 1). Any thoughts?<BR>
> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/WorldTemplateBZA1.GIF<BR>
<BR>
Hexes I mean. Phooey. Perhaps I shoud explain /why/ I was doing this, as it<BR>
is likely only obvious to CT nuts like me. I started at zero for the same<BR>
reason Cleon chose it for the start of his calendar. And it ends with the<BR>
hexadecimal "F" like most scales in CT. Hypercleats gave me the idea, and I<BR>
was pleased to find that it has the above convenient attributes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:25:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Sir James Bond, British secret agent extroidinaire (sp), has saved<BR>
>> the world countless times (although not from aliens).  The series is<BR>
>> an American production, but it features a British super hero.  It is<BR>
>> an example of the homage that Americans place on all things British.<BR>
>> Sure, of course, an American could single-handedly save the world<BR>
>> with one hand tied behind his back, but the British do it with style<BR>
>> and class.<BR>
><BR>
> There's just something about JB though... Hollywood tried to usurp Her<BR>
> Majesty's best with Matt Helm (which I admit to loving and watch on cable<BR>
> when I can)... and they tried with Flint also (damn it, another cable<BR>
> drawcard when it's on), but they just never cut the grade...<BR>
<BR>
Flint was intended as a *spoof* of the Bond films, and possibly the<BR>
UNCLE TV shows. The producers of the Matt Helm stuff could never seem<BR>
to make up their minds if they wanted it to be a spoof or to play it<BR>
straight. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:17:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 2:58 AM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Hexes I mean. Phooey. Perhaps I shoud<BR>
<BR>
Should spell better than that, that's what I should do. I have added the<BR>
equator, and some other things.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/IcoBZA.GIF<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:38:16 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller Alien Races 4 <BR>
<BR>
(Forwarded message from SJG's Illuminator for 5/22/00)<BR>
<BR>
SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller Alien Races 4<BR>
<BR>
    The fourth volume in the GURPS Traveller Alien Races series will address<BR>
   the biology, home worlds, culture, and society of 17 minor races. These<BR>
   writeups will follow the format set out for minor races in Alien Races<BR>
   1-3. As we did for GURPS Villians and the Who's Who series, we are inviting<BR>
   fans to take part in creating this book.<BR>
<BR>
   Each submission will address one race at a length of roughly 4,000 to<BR>
   7,000 words. It will give concise accounts of their historical involvement<BR>
   with the Imperium, and will include racial templates. The author should<BR>
   be familiar not only with GURPS Traveller, but also the original Classic<BR>
   Traveller source material and the basics of nonhuman species construction<BR>
   presented in GURPS Compendium I.<BR>
 <BR>
   Six of the races in Alien Races 4 will be original creations by David<BR>
   Pulver or GURPS Traveller writeups of his canon races by Phil Masters.<BR>
   The remaining races, open for inquiry, include:<BR>
<BR>
   Ael Yael: a flying race from Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society No.<BR>
   15.<BR>
 <BR>
   Ahetaowa: sentient psionic plants from Challenge No. 56.<BR>
   <BR>
   Bwaps: also known as Newts, found in JTAS No. 11.<BR>
   <BR>
   Girug'kagh: subjects of the K'kree found in JTAS No. 21.<BR>
   <BR>
   Hana Saka: lizard men from Challenge No. 52.<BR>
   <BR>
   Hlanssai: bipeds found in Vargr space from JTAS No. 22.<BR>
   <BR>
   J'aadje: from the Double Adventure Night of Conquest/Divine Intervention.<BR>
   <BR>
   Shalli: amphibians from Traveller: the New Era that were only accepted<BR>
   as intelligent after the Rebellion. This will involve deciding their<BR>
   role in the GT timeline.<BR>
   <BR>
   Shriekers: aliens with high-pitched voices from "Safari Ship."<BR>
   <BR>
   Stalkers: long-necked, squat, xenophobic aliens of the Hinterworlds Sector<BR>
   from Challenge No. 39.<BR>
   <BR>
   Virushi: aliens the size of a small rhino, from JTAS No. 12.<BR>
   <BR>
   Contributors will be paid a flat rate for their work. Those interested<BR>
   should inquire with Loren Wiseman, as all races will be assigned rather<BR>
   than be subject to a general "best of" submissions process. Content will<BR>
   be due July 20, 2000.<BR>
  <BR>
   -- Loren Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
Related Links:<BR>
<BR>
  1. mailto:lkw@io.com<BR>
  2. http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@pyramid.sjgames.com with the<BR>
message "unsubscribe illuminator".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:55:07 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Universities (was Garda-Vilis University (longish))<BR>
<BR>
"Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> > I can think of four basic types of schools: public (owned and operated<BR>
> > by some government entity), private (non-profit), commercial (privately<BR>
> > owned, for-profit), and corporate (operated by a corporation<BR>
> > specifically to train current or future employees).  Are there other<BR>
> > types that I have left out?<BR>
<BR>
> State-owned schools: Ground forces military schools would probably be<BR>
> owned by the state they're in.<BR>
> Imperial owned schools: Kind of like the corporate schools, but owned by<BR>
> the Imperium (or Navy, or Scout Service, ...)<BR>
<BR>
Both 'state-owned' and 'Imperial owned' are subclasses of public.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that it is possible (albeit unlikely) for a<BR>
'school' to not be owned or run by anyone, or if they are<BR>
run by anyone such control is quite minimal.<BR>
<BR>
For Example:<BR>
<BR>
If a 'school' is a means of imparting skills then isn't<BR>
the TML a 'school' that helps its members learn (in GURPS<BR>
terms the Hobby Skill of Gaming (M/E) with a required specialization<BR>
of Traveller (GURPS Comp I p 146)? While the primary purpose of<BR>
the list is to discuss Traveller such discussion does help us<BR>
learn the skill. While the list does have an owner and a <BR>
moderator their day to day influence is minimal.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that 'schools' such as the TML could help<BR>
people learn any skill. By subscribing to enough 'general'<BR>
lists it seems to me that you could (in Traveller terms) raise<BR>
your Education stat.<BR>
<BR>
Even if you think that the TML has not helped you learn the<BR>
Gaming:Traveller skill it may have helped others learn the<BR>
skill. It seems to me that this makes it, arguably, a 'school'.<BR>
<BR>
It is true that subscribing to a list may make it harder to get<BR>
a 'degree' but in many cases the posession of a skill may be more<BR>
important than how it was learned. If credentialism became important<BR>
you might have to past a test (devised by TML Great Old Ones) to<BR>
get your 'Associates Degree' in Traveller. To get your 'Bachelors<BR>
Degree' you have to pass a test and submit a portfolio. To get<BR>
a 'Masters Degree' you'd have to write a 70,000+ word Traveller<BR>
book and see it published, after 'defending' it before an (IRC)<BR>
pannel. Etc....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 02:59:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Scenario:  The characters are from the Unified Army of Vilis' Inspector<BR>
> General office.  A demonstration by the FTSL went bad, and Imperial troops<BR>
> fired into the crowd.  The troops claim that they took fire, and were<BR>
> defending themselves, but video shot at the scene shows differently.  The<BR>
> locals want the soldiers hung, and there is immense pressure from the<BR>
> characters' superiors to find a scapegoat.  Somebody is hiding the truth..<BR>
> can the characters' find the truth without touching off a massive student<BR>
> riot? <BR>
<BR>
Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it<BR>
should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid<BR>
an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more<BR>
expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given<BR>
that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:11:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Browser Standards<BR>
<BR>
> Ooooh, oooh snitty! I wonder if anyone can stop polishing their<BR>
> credentials and straining at gnats in this little game of<BR>
> one-upmanship, long enough to appreciate the futility of arguing<BR>
semantics.<BR>
<BR>
We're talking languages and standards.<BR>
Arguing about semantics is what language standards committees _do_.<BR>
<BR>
> ["How would you like your Standards, m'Lud? De jour or de facto, this<BR>
> morning?"]<BR>
<BR>
Braised in a white wine sauce, thank you.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:19:55 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote (in separate posts)<BR>
<BR>
> everyone knows that in West Virginia, there are only queers<BR>
> & sheep, so which one are you?  A queer or a sheep?<BR>
<BR>
> Are you insane, well of course you are, you live in<BR>
> Tucson, hell no, we put all of our crazies on the train <BR>
> & shipped them to Tucson.<BR>
<BR>
> I will never surrender my rights to pick a fight with <BR>
> anyone I want.<BR>
<BR>
> And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he will<BR>
> be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander relatives<BR>
> are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't the nice place,<BR>
> but the very bad place.<BR>
<BR>
What a wonderful display of tolerance....<BR>
<BR>
Philosophy 101 according to Legate Legion:<BR>
<BR>
All Catholics are going to hell.<BR>
I have a right to pick a fight with anyone any time.<BR>
Everyone in [insert area] is crazy.<BR>
Everyone in [insert second area] is either a 'sheep'<BR>
or a 'queer', both of which are typically considered<BR>
pejorative.<BR>
<BR>
I see no reason to respond to any future posts by Legate<BR>
Legion. I urge the rest of you to take the same position<BR>
in hopes of a less hostile TML. If this sort of behavior<BR>
and language on his part persists I would urge someone to<BR>
speak to the list admin (Rob Miracle?) about it.<BR>
<BR>
Given that I get the list in digest mode I can't<BR>
kill file him.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:27:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>     You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
> Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand<BR>
> would have had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans<BR>
to help<BR>
> England.<BR>
<BR>
The combined Commonwealth Navies basically ruled the Indian, Mediterranean<BR>
and Atlantic. Other than harrasment by German U-boats, it was pretty simple<BR>
for New Zealand & Australia to ship troops and basic food-stuffs to England,<BR>
which they did throughout the war.<BR>
<BR>
New Zealand, by a quirk of time zones, actually declared war on Germany<BR>
before England did.<BR>
<BR>
> South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans & Italians.<BR>
<BR>
There were South African units fighting in the Desert war and in Italy, as<BR>
well as being involved in dealing to German East Africa and other German<BR>
territories in Africa.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:24:26 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
"samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> puts out on the ether:<BR>
> >Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>only sneak attack on American Soil.<<BR>
>Pearl Harbor was not American soil. Hawaii was a territory at the time, not<BR>
>a state.<BR>
<BR>
Picky, picky.  I'd still be plenty pissed if somebody set off a vest pocket <BR>
nuke in Puerto Rico.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled<BR>
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential<BR>
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the<BR>
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are <BR>
remitted<BR>
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:35:32 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 2:58 AM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hexes I mean. Phooey. Perhaps I shoud<BR>
><BR>
>Should spell better than that, that's what I should do. I have added the<BR>
>equator, and some other things.<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/IcoBZA.GIF<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought:<BR>
<BR>
It seems to suffer the traditional half hex problem, in that all the half<BR>
hexes around the edge are actually part of the planet's surface but have<BR>
a surprising tendancy to be devoid of interesting geography.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps if you skewed the hexes or "glued" alternate hexes together?<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, I'm not sure that this helps, so much as makes the problem different.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:46:26 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
"Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: I'm drawing a blank, this thread has wandered too far for me. That<BR>
>last map I posted a link to though... Odd idea I had to see made manifest.<BR>
>The equator runs through a central row of hxes unlike either DGP or GT<BR>
>standards, and the scale extends to "F" at the poles. That gives 1002 spaces<BR>
>at C/50 scale, so each is about a tenth of a percent of surface area<BR>
>(100=hydro-rating 1). Any thoughts?<BR>
>http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/WorldTemplateBZA1.GIF<BR>
<BR>
btw,<BR>
<BR>
I get 1000 spaces.<BR>
<BR>
each face has 1+2+...+8 = 36 full hexes on a face * 20 faces = 720<BR>
<BR>
each edge has 9 half hexes * 3 edges * 20 faces / 2 (half haexes) = 270<BR>
<BR>
each vertex has 1 * 5/6 hex * 12 vertices = 10<BR>
<BR>
total 1000<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:47:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 22 May 00, at 23:27, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >     You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
> > Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand<BR>
> > would have had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans<BR>
> to help<BR>
> > England.<BR>
<BR>
> The combined Commonwealth Navies basically ruled the Indian, Mediterranean and<BR>
> Atlantic. Other than harrasment by German U-boats, it was pretty simple for<BR>
> New Zealand & Australia to ship troops and basic food-stuffs to England, which<BR>
> they did throughout the war.<BR>
<BR>
I'd disagree with the Med, the Italian Navy and Axis airpower did effectively <BR>
contest Commonwealth naval power there until mid 1943. But that only <BR>
forced the Commonwealth to use the longer Cape route.<BR>
<BR>
> New Zealand, by a quirk of time zones, actually declared war on Germany<BR>
> before England did.<BR>
<BR>
Up until comparitively recently, New Zealand has been the most militarily <BR>
aggressive state in the Pacific (Aside: New Zealand was the only <BR>
Commonwealth nation to offer active military assistance to the British <BR>
during the Falklands). Basically, if there was a decent scrap in the offing, <BR>
we were in.<BR>
<BR>
> > South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans & Italians.<BR>
<BR>
> There were South African units fighting in the Desert war and in Italy, as<BR>
> well as being involved in dealing to German East Africa and other German<BR>
> territories in Africa.<BR>
<BR>
Let us also not forget Field Marshal Smuts, leader of the Boers during the <BR>
Boer war and one of the highest ranking Commonwealth political and <BR>
military commanders during both the 1st and 2nd World Wars. The <BR>
Nationalists were not really a major power in South Africa until the 1950s<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:00:19 +0100<BR>
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Megatraveller strike<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Just had to come on and crow. Went to my FLGS and was trolling through the<BR>
> used stuff, hoping to find some TNE stuff. The owner asked me what I was<BR>
> looking for and I told him any Traveller not T4. I picked up the MT boxed<BR>
> set, Rats & Cats, The Vilani & Vargr book. A good haul, all for about $38.<BR>
> Did I get a good deal?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,<BR>
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,<BR>
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:<BR>
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death<BR>
                                      Rode the six hundred.<BR>
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR>
<BR>
   #include<stddisclaimer.h><BR>
<BR>
   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license<BR>
<BR>
   University of Brighton - Sunday Times' University of the Year<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:40:38 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: BORING! (Could we have some Trav content here?)<BR>
<BR>
The last few digests have been incredibly dull and off-topic folks.  We've<BR>
got discussions going about HTML, various aspects of the "US vs. the<BR>
world" thing, and lotsa other pointless nonsense.  Could y'all take it to<BR>
personal email?  I'm on this list for Traveller stuff and I'm not getting<BR>
much.  I think there may have been about 10 on-topic messages in the last<BR>
three digests (along with semi-OT stuff which is "mostly harmless").<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2474<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2475<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
[OT] Scottish Flames Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Legate Legion's personal one man tirade..<BR>
Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
RE: Megatraveller strike<BR>
B.S. was Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
RE: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)<BR>
Re: [Fwd: How do they do this? (from kaycee kati duncan to Sara & Benny )]<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:57:38 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Noted.  Associate: 2 years; Bachelor: 4 years; Master: 2 years<BR>
>(cumulative with bachelor's); Doctor: 2 years (cumulative with<BR>
>master's).  Note that, except for the associate degree, these correspond<BR>
>with the college and graduate school terms in T4.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	It is not uncommon for a Masters degree to take 3 years in the<BR>
	sciences, though 2 years is the recommended time.  A Ph.D. (Doctor)<BR>
	in biology in 2 years would be unheard of.  I would put 3 years as<BR>
	an absolute minimum, and 7 years is not unknown in some areas.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:04:41 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it<BR>
> should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid<BR>
> an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more<BR>
> expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given<BR>
> that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal.<BR>
<BR>
<university headmaster mode><BR>
<BR>
We cannot afford that solution, since there are far too many potential<BR>
suspects. Do you realize that we have over ten thousand students here?<BR>
<BR>
Basically what we want you to do is to find a cheaper way. We don't want<BR>
you to use threats, violence, or similiar methods, since that would<BR>
certainly bring us out of business.<BR>
<BR>
</university headmaster mode><BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:07:58 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> It is not uncommon for a Masters degree to take 3 years in the<BR>
> sciences, though 2 years is the recommended time.  A Ph.D. (Doctor)<BR>
> in biology in 2 years would be unheard of.  I would put 3 years as<BR>
> an absolute minimum, and 7 years is not unknown in some areas.<BR>
<BR>
We (in Sweden) have no theoretical maximum time for any of the higher<BR>
education grades. My uncle graduated last spring. He started his 4-year<BR>
program (political science, about equal to a Bachelor's degree) in<BR>
1970-1971.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Maybe a failed preservation roll could mean one or more extra<BR>
years in schools that allow this?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:08:44 +0200<BR>
From: Steve Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
Subject: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> What a wonderful display of tolerance....<BR>
><BR>
> Philosophy 101 according to Legate Legion:<BR>
><BR>
> All Catholics are going to hell.<BR>
> I have a right to pick a fight with anyone any time.<BR>
> Everyone in [insert area] is crazy.<BR>
> Everyone in [insert second area] is either a 'sheep'<BR>
> or a 'queer', both of which are typically considered<BR>
> pejorative.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I don't know about all of that, and I certainly do not agree with everything Legate says, but in<BR>
this case Legate is suffering from Phoenix syndrome, where large quantities of brain cells are sucked<BR>
away to be used in the many public highway improvements constantly ongoing in the Phoenix area...<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the Phoenix/Tucson feud is a long and time-honored tradition.  As a Tucsonan, it behooves me<BR>
to also extoll the virtues of Zachary's Pizza, Rincon Market and (my favorite) Bookman's Used and<BR>
Slightly Overpriced Books.  I am also required to point out that most of Maricopa Country is covered<BR>
in concrete, and the chances of getting from one side of the Phoenix metro area in less than a day are<BR>
pretty much nil, thanks to all of the road construction paid for by Tucson tax dollars.<BR>
<BR>
And the Sheep or Queers remark comes from a movie (Officer and a Gentleman, I think) and years of<BR>
general regional abuse.  Since most of my family is from West By God Virginia, I have to make sure<BR>
everyone understands that we DO NOT chase after the sheep if they are relatives.  That's Arkansas...<BR>
<BR>
I don't know that all Catholics are going to Hell, but I suspect a number of them think most will go<BR>
to Purgatory for a while...<BR>
<BR>
Finally, as to picking a fight... it takes two to do that.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:04:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <BR>
> >Let's go through the list again:  Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South<BR>
> >Africa, India,...<BR>
>     You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
> Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand would<BR>
have<BR>
> had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans to help<BR>
> England.  South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans &<BR>
> Italians.  And, India had its own problems, internally & externally.<BR>
<BR>
We are talking about the same war, aren't we?<BR>
<BR>
Japan is an interesting question, since they were the ones who dragged the<BR>
US into the war.  Bringing them into the discussion without the US is a<BR>
little dicey.  <BR>
<BR>
In any case, it doesn't really matter, because Australia and New Zealand<BR>
_did_ send troops to support Britain.  They _mainly_ served in the<BR>
Mediterranean theatres, but some were posted in Britain.  (And lots of them<BR>
served in Europe in WWI too, although the relevance of this may be<BR>
dubious.)<BR>
<BR>
And yes, cargoes from Australia, etc, were being sent to Britain all<BR>
through the war.  This includes the bit before the US (and Japan) was<BR>
involved, which happens to have been the period when Britain was closest to<BR>
defeat.<BR>
<BR>
And most of the "British" army was drawn from the Indian Army, on nearly<BR>
every front but Western Europe.  Think:  whole divisions of Gurkhas. <BR>
(Admittedly, raw Gurkhas, but still...)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and I completely and intentionally ignored the French colonial empire<BR>
(particularly in Africa), a lot of which was in Free French hands before<BR>
the US came into the war.  And then there are neutrals like Argentina, who<BR>
where happily selling stuff to anyone with the cash.<BR>
<BR>
>     The Boer's thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced<BR>
> bread, & many joined the South African Nazi Party & did everything they<BR>
> could to hurt the English War Effort.  The only help the English had were<BR>
> from the Indians & some of the Tribes, but they bearly held onto South<BR>
> Africa.<BR>
<BR>
And they still managed to draw thousands of troops from there.<BR>
<BR>
When Tobruk fell in '42, the garrison contained bucketloads of South<BR>
African troops.  I think (but I would have to check), that they had earlier<BR>
served in Abyssinia, too.  Some part of my head insists that they might<BR>
have been at El Alamein too, but I don't have a reference handy to check<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:36:28 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: [OT] Scottish Flames Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Hi everyone:<BR>
<BR>
This post is horribly OT.  Basically you should just delete it.  However,<BR>
if you are into history, or silly flame wars, read on...<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <BR>
>     We never invaded England, raided, yes, invaded no.  If we had invaded<BR>
> England, then history would have been different.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently history was different.  What do you consider a raid?  Are major<BR>
campaigns, with large armies, involving pitched battles and sieges, and (at<BR>
least sometimes) with the goal of installing a new English government,<BR>
raids?  <BR>
<BR>
> >In addition, Scotland was pretty much self-governing up until 1707 or<BR>
so,<BR>
> >complete with its own, nominally separate, army.  It was _actually_<BR>
> >independent up until Cromwell stomped them.<BR>
><BR>
>     English Propganda.<BR>
<BR>
What is?  The fact that Scotland under the Covenanters was actually an<BR>
independent state?  Or that there was a separate Scottish army before 1707<BR>
(or so)?  Granted, it was useless, and repeatedly proved that it was<BR>
incapable of maintaining order against Jacobite rebels, but it was still a<BR>
distinct state apparatus. <BR>
<BR>
> >Are you talking about Mary Queen of Scots?  Her son James VI was made<BR>
> >Elizabeth of England's heir.  Or do you mean Charles I?  _Two_ of his<BR>
sons<BR>
> >followed him on the throne.  Even when William of Orange grabbed the<BR>
> >thrones of England and Scotland, he did it jointly with his wife:  Mary<BR>
> >Stuart.  Queen Anne was a Stuart.  The Hannoverian monarchs got their<BR>
claim<BR>
> >to the throne through a Stuart lineage.<BR>
> <BR>
>     Aye, but they were not Scotish, they were English.<BR>
 <BR>
Actually, they were just like any other European royal dynasty.  They were<BR>
Scots, they were English, they were French, they were Spanish, they were<BR>
Germans, they were whatever.  But the Stuart line derived from the<BR>
Hereditary Stewards of the Kingdom of Scotland.  Mary "Queen of Scots" was,<BR>
indeed, the Queen of Scotland.  James the Sixth, was, indeed, King of<BR>
Scotland well before he _also_ became King James the First of England.<BR>
<BR>
>     Of course to bring civilisation to Scotland, your people raped &<BR>
> murdered my people.  <BR>
<BR>
See what I wrote below as to who "my people" are.<BR>
<BR>
> >The Highlanders, particularly the Jacobite/Catholic clans, destroyed<BR>
> >Scotland.  May they rot in hell.<BR>
> <BR>
>     You sir, & I do use that term loosely, as loosely as I can, meaning a<BR>
> man, have personally insulted my clan, my family, & myself, I would ask<BR>
you<BR>
> as a man of honor to withdraw this statement, before you start a flamewar<BR>
> with me.<BR>
<BR>
It is a true statement.  The Jacobites murdered Scotland.  They were<BR>
traitors to Scotland.<BR>
<BR>
> >BTW:  My grandfather was a Catholic from Glasgow.<BR>
> <BR>
>     Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he<BR>
> will be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander<BR>
> relatives are.  <BR>
<BR>
You have completely missed the point.  "Catholic" plus "Scottish" equals<BR>
"Jacobite Highlanders".  (Or Irish, but that's another question.)  The<BR>
Protestant majority of Scots (including Highlanders) _hated_ the Jacobites.<BR>
<BR>
(Note:  I haven't mentioned the Highlands Clearances.  This is a whole<BR>
different kettle of fish from the _military_ suppression of feudal anarchy<BR>
and conservative revolt in the Highlands.  I also haven't mentioned that I<BR>
have gone on record in other forums, where this discussion is ON TOPIC, in<BR>
support of Scottish nationalism.)<BR>
<BR>
Unless your reply is particularly fun, I might stop posting on this OT<BR>
thread here.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:15:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Legate Legion's personal one man tirade..<BR>
<BR>
Sir,<BR>
<BR>
why don't you just crawl back under your stone you self opinionated<BR>
boisterous prat.<BR>
<BR>
I for one am fed up of your constant tirade, arguing in bulk on every<BR>
which subject you care to, with no forethought and consideration of<BR>
what you are saying, just a brash outburst of emotion, which<BR>
to coin a phrase is "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".***<BR>
<BR>
Why don't you just take a step back, construcively edit your responses,<BR>
and then post them. Like I have with this. It took three attempts, and I<BR>
deleted each one before leaving me with this considered request.<BR>
<BR>
I realise you were out of the way for some time, and probably, you feel<BR>
as though you have a lot to say, and I don't deny you right to do so.<BR>
I just wish you would tone it down, consider posting less frequently, and<BR>
not rise to the bait as much. Also, it might be nice to talk Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
I personally have the excuse to be quite annoyed, having had the mother<BR>
of all weekends, but I chose not to vent my anger on you guys.<BR>
<BR>
50% of the posts in a digest coming from one man, seems someone has<BR>
far too much time on their hands, and should get out more..... (open the<BR>
window there's this big wide world out there....)<BR>
<BR>
You also seem to be promoting the negative aspects of the military, by your<BR>
boisterous, boastful nature. While this might stand you in good stead amongst<BR>
your peers, ask yourself is it really the way to conduct oneself in a circle<BR>
of people who do not share your background?<BR>
<BR>
Yours<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Owain 'Glendawr' Rhys Jones<BR>
Ex Royal Signals (British Army)<BR>
Roman Catholic (with a one way ticket to hell, so it seems)<BR>
<BR>
***(you suss it out!)<BR>
<BR>
(And incidentally, if you wish to get pedantic : it's the Isle of Man.....<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:57:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris had written:<BR>
<BR>
>> However, I take great exception at you tone regarding the fact that my<BR>
>> program requires IE5. I would point out that the program does not require<BR>
>> IE5, but requires the SHWDCVW.DLL which forms part of that package. Users<BR>
>> with IE4 or IE5 will already have a copy of this DLL on their machine, but<BR>
>> those who favour another browser simply need to install and register the<BR>
>> DLL.<BR>
><BR>
>> Note that H&E is written for a Microsoft OS using a Microsoft programming<BR>
>> language. To provide the functionality that I required the only option<BR>
>> available to me was to use Microsoft's Internet component. If you can point<BR>
>> me in the direction of a VB component that  provides COM+ internet<BR>
>> capabilities then please do so.<BR>
<BR>
To which Leonard responded:<BR>
<BR>
>Why does it need *any* internet capabilities?<BR>
<BR>
>All it should need is the ability to display text and graphics, and<BR>
>accept user input. Standard GUI stuff that should *not* be linking to<BR>
>any "internet" capability.<BR>
<BR>
>It'd be rather nice if it was possible to run the program under OS/2,<BR>
>if only in a "Win-OS/2" session. But use of that DLL makes that<BR>
>impossible. And before you object that you don't support other OSes,<BR>
>please note that OS/2 supports Win-32 standard up until version 1.25.<BR>
>After that MS changed the standard in a way that made it incompatible<BR>
>with low level OS/2 functions (and there's no way they *couldn't* have<BR>
>known this)<BR>
<BR>
H&E needs the internet capabilities in the generation of the HTML outputs,<BR>
and because, of course, (and this is the main reason): Because we couldn't<BR>
get what we wanted to get any other way. Stuart, and may others, myself<BR>
included, have worked long and hard on this project. Stuart and I have both<BR>
been involved for well over a year. I didn't see you popping up with your ideas<BR>
in that stage, did I? As with quite a few others, you simply chose to wait until<BR>
the product was released and then have a snipe because it doesn't suit your<BR>
needs. Sorry. I'll tell you what: We'll spend the time learning some obscure<BR>
programming language, and some new (but old) methods, just so we can<BR>
create a port for your ZX81 or whatever it is you're using. Is that it? Sorry<BR>
no can do.<BR>
<BR>
The fact is, and I've said it before: It is freeware. Written by Stuart, out of his<BR>
own limited ability (now not so limited, thankfully) in a language that he knew<BR>
and was comfortable with learning, to his own specifications, and incorporating<BR>
the requests of those of us on the mailing lists. It is a  fine product, which runs<BR>
nicely on the machines it is designed for. Nobody promised it was going to run<BR>
on OS2 / Mac OS / Linux / Perl GCI or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
It is the same sort of thing that happened with my trading spreadsheet: I was<BR>
quite happy with what I'd done, and what I wanted to share with others, and<BR>
so I published it for others to use. I got most people genuinely impressed, and<BR>
constructive, but then come along a minority saying: "It's written for Excel, why<BR>
can't you write it in DuffOffice 86 for the zircon cube processor, or some such<BR>
obscure machine/application : Microsoft is crap..".<BR>
<BR>
MS products are my means for making a living. I knew nothing about PC's until<BR>
92, when I first learned DOS. I mostly skipped Windows until 95, and only got<BR>
involved in using windows applications in 1996. I made my first spreadsheet<BR>
from scratch with the help files in 1996-97. I'm now developing in VB and Access/<BR>
SQL server and MS Office / Back Office applications, and doing quite well, thank<BR>
you very much. I have no desire to learn how to program your computer for you.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart has been broadcasting messages about WBD / H&E for well over a year<BR>
now, and if you'd shown a bit of interest, and followed it up at the time, you could<BR>
have given us the benefit of your experience, and we could have worked in some of<BR>
your requirements. It is not the done thing to slate it afterwards!<BR>
<BR>
Why can't some people realise that if they are not happy with what somebody has<BR>
produced, that they get down and do it for themselves to suit their own requirements,<BR>
rather than getting involved in irrelevant conversations. Put up, or shut up...<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels (Bloo) wrote:<BR>
>Telling people to shut up or don't use your product will keep<BR>
>them away.  And you'll have no audience and no valuable<BR>
>feedback.  And that would make your efforts to date a waste.<BR>
>You owe it to yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart, I think you have a right to take things like this personally, obviously in disagreement<BR>
with Steve (Bloo), since you've worked bloody hard on this. But don't you give up,there are<BR>
over one hundred people on the WBD Mailing list that are using the product, and many more<BR>
besides who haven't joined the list, if the hit count can be trusted... That's a significantly large<BR>
market, if you ask me. Not exactly No audience. We have plently of valuable feedback. Your<BR>
efforts to date have not been a waste..<BR>
<BR>
Rather the rah rah boo boys give up complaining... (Steve, I'm not counting you among the<BR>
rah rah boo boys!)<BR>
<BR>
Yours<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:22:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it <BR>
should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid <BR>
an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more <BR>
expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given <BR>
that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal. ><BR>
<BR>
Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a <BR>
suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
and resource limits...if it takes a trained interrogator<BR>
and two hours to interrogate someone with truth drug, then<BR>
you have to pick eight or fewer targets per interrogator<BR>
per day, find them, interrogate them, analyze what you <BR>
learned, etc...<BR>
<BR>
Now have there be seperate student movements, each one with<BR>
different goals.  "Truth" to one suspect may be mostly <BR>
hearsay and rhetoric.  Add in a cell structure...you catch<BR>
ten violence-prone student activists, and find out that<BR>
even under truth drug they tell you nothing useful - because<BR>
the person pulling their strings is just an anonymous voice<BR>
on a vidphone, that will never call them again now that<BR>
they're caught.<BR>
<BR>
If indiscriminate use of truth drugs is common in a society,<BR>
underground movements will organize with the expectation that<BR>
anyone caught will spill every bean they have.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:33:08 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Megatraveller strike<BR>
<BR>
If you're LUCKY you can pick up Rats & Cats or V&V ALONE for <$40 on<BR>
eBay....<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Terry<BR>
> Carlino<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 8:01 PM<BR>
> To: Traveller Mailing list<BR>
> Subject: Megatraveller strike<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Just had to come on and crow. Went to my FLGS and was trolling through the<BR>
> used stuff, hoping to find some TNE stuff. The owner asked me what I was<BR>
> looking for and I told him any Traveller not T4. I picked up the MT boxed<BR>
> set, Rats & Cats, The Vilani & Vargr book. A good haul, all for about $38.<BR>
> Did I get a good deal?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Terry C<BR>
> All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
> Not all who travel are lost<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:03:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: B.S. was Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
To the list I apologize in advance for the following OT Rant:<BR>
<BR>
"Captain, my B.S. detector has gone of the scale!!"<BR>
<BR>
I hate to break it to you Legate, but there were only 5 Amphibious<BR>
operations during the Gulf War and none of them were opposed by enemy<BR>
fire that "pinned down" any Marine ground assault forces.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking for all of my fellow Marine veterans who served in the Gulf<BR>
(including those like myself who participated in the completely<BR>
unopposed landing in Saudi Arabia and subsequent road march into<BR>
Kuwait), I think you're blowing a whole lot of smoke.<BR>
<BR>
You can easily prove me wrong by letting us know what unit you were in,<BR>
when and where this opposed amphibious assault took place, what Navy<BR>
vessel(s) launched the assault, and what Navy ship provided your fire<BR>
support.<BR>
<BR>
I realize here is a (very small) possibility that I'm wrong about your<BR>
claim and if so I sincerely apologize.  However I won't sit idly by when<BR>
those kinds of "I was there man" war stories are made without any<BR>
backup.<BR>
<BR>
The truth is out there!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:52:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This might be due to the fact that the dumb ones were now all dead.<BR>
Actually, in combat, the stupid die off first.<BR>
<BR>
For example, when I was in DS, my unit was part of the amphib landings &<BR>
<BR>
we were pinned down by Iraqi fire, so I called in Naval Arty (as this is<BR>
one<BR>
of the three duties the navy is good for), & the SEALs walked into the<BR>
barrage & died.  Darwin in action, the stupid died first.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, boys & girls, when you have 16" shells comming in, do not walk<BR>
<BR>
into it, it will be a bad thing[tm].<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:13:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
I don't think he's serious.   Whether or not he is, I don't think he should<BR>
be taken seriously.  People who say things like that want attention and we<BR>
are giving him a lot of it.<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:15:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: VonRammen [mailto:von_rammen@email.msn.com]<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, the British comic Eddie Izzard has pointed out<BR>
> (correctly, IMHO) that the villains in American movies always <BR>
> have English<BR>
> accents, because the US won the Revolutionary War. And the <BR>
> French, who came<BR>
> to the aid of the Americans, are always portrayed as swinging <BR>
> Latin lovers<BR>
> :)<BR>
<BR>
Haven't watched 'Jack of All Trades' yet, have we?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:15:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion:<BR>
<BR>
You pointed out recently how quickly stupidity gets one<BR>
killed on a battlefield.  As an example, you told us how,<BR>
during a Desert Storm amphibious assault, a bunch of Navy <BR>
SEALs were so dumb that they walked right into a hail<BR>
of 16-inch battleship shells you'd called in.  Very<BR>
convenient to have a tale on hand of how fatally dumb Navy<BR>
people are, considering how you detest the members of this <BR>
service.<BR>
<BR>
The story sounded a bit fishy to me.  It's common knowledge<BR>
that during Desert Storm, the main purpose of the Marine<BR>
amphibious force turned out to be deception.  Still, to<BR>
give it the benefit of the doubt, I checked.<BR>
<BR>
The US military has very extensive records of the Desert<BR>
Storm operation.  Among these records are details of all<BR>
amphibious assaults of the war, and details of Battleship<BR>
operations during the same period.  The dates and locations,<BR>
unfortunately for your story, don't match up. <BR>
<BR>
They're not even close.<BR>
<BR>
The only two amphibious assaults of the war  happened on<BR>
24 January (Qurah Island) and 29 January (Umm al Maradim<BR>
Island).  Both operations were completed within one day<BR>
of landing, as the islands were small and vulnerable.<BR>
<BR>
The first battleship gun fire missions of the war didn't <BR>
happen until 2 February, against targets near the Saudi<BR>
border.<BR>
<BR>
I thought it pretty arrogant of you to boast about getting<BR>
fellow soldiers killed with a friendly fire mission.  Now<BR>
I see that you were...let's be charitable and call you an<BR>
"unreliable source".<BR>
<BR>
Hint: When making stuff up, it doesn't pay to do so about<BR>
recent, well documented events.  <BR>
<BR>
For those with more interest in the details, take a look at<BR>
http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm/ds5.htm from the<BR>
Dept. of the Navy's Naval Historical Center.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:18:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: How do they do this? (from kaycee kati duncan to Sara & Benny )]<BR>
<BR>
At 07:51 AM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Click on the link below...<BR>
><BR>
>http://<snip><BR>
<BR>
Folks, this page is loaded with Javascript popups that crashed my system<BR>
rather quickly.  It is not worth the time unless you want to have you<BR>
desktop overrun by ads.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:25:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
At 02:59 AM 5/22/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it<BR>
>should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid<BR>
>an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more<BR>
>expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given<BR>
>that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with truth drugs is that they will only tell you what the<BR>
person believes the truth to be.  So if the troops hinestly believed that<BR>
they were beinf fired at, all the truth drugs will do is confirm that they<BR>
were being fired at.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:31:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines v. Aliens was pitch black<BR>
<BR>
At 11:32 AM 5/22/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Or military enthusiasts!  "That's a Soviet T-34 model they built that Tiger<BR>
>body over!!" or in earlier war movies, they used Pattons and the like<BR>
>out-right as Tigers or "Panzers."<BR>
<BR>
That I can handle, it's when they screw up the stuff they could have gotten<BR>
right that I go off.<BR>
<BR>
Last night's "Outer Limits" for example.. there was one character who was<BR>
suppossed to be a US Army Captain.  She was wearing 1st Lieutenant bars on<BR>
*both* collar points, and they were parallel with the ground, instead of<BR>
the correct angle.  Little things like that set me off.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:45:33 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
> > The equator runs through a central row of hxes unlike either DGP or GT<BR>
> > standards, and the scale extends to "F" at the poles. That gives 1002 spaces<BR>
> > at C/50 scale, so each is about a tenth of a percent of surface area<BR>
> > (100=hydro-rating 1). Any thoughts?<BR>
> > http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/WorldTemplateBZA1.GIF<BR>
<BR>
> Hexes I mean. Phooey. Perhaps I shoud explain /why/ I was doing this, as it<BR>
> is likely only obvious to CT nuts like me. I started at zero for the same<BR>
> reason Cleon chose it for the start of his calendar. And it ends with the<BR>
> hexadecimal "F" like most scales in CT. Hypercleats gave me the idea, and I<BR>
> was pleased to find that it has the above convenient attributes.<BR>
<BR>
It s a nice map and I like it _but_ several canonical Traveller<BR>
World generation systems (WBH & WT) generate planetary weather<BR>
and temperature ratings using a standard system. [For a planet<BR>
of size Y row X will have a temperature modifier of -6.0 degrees].<BR>
Because of this your map, with a nonstandard number of vertical<BR>
rows is less useful to those of using such a system for planetary<BR>
generation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:38:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 09:33 PM 5/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>only sneak attack on American Soil.<<BR>
><BR>
>Pearl Harbor was not American soil. Hawaii was a territory at the time, not<BR>
>a state.<BR>
<BR>
It was a United States Navy Base, and as such, federal property.  Also,<BR>
territories are part of the United States, and subject to all federal laws.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2475<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2476</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2476<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)<BR>
Re: Weapons Website<BR>
Landgrab Review: Ylaven/Lanth<BR>
Re: Truth drug<BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
RE: Truth drug<BR>
RE: Weapons Website<BR>
RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:47:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 11:19 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Basicly, Doug, arrogance is not a bad thing, always.  For example, you<BR>
>drive for Super Shuttle, right?  If I flew into where you are & got a ride<BR>
>from you to my hotel, you would know how to get there, correct?  As such,<BR>
>you would have the right to be arrogant.  The same way with the Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
Why would I be arrogant?  that's not the same thing as pride, you know.<BR>
What would you expect me to do when we got to the Shery Fish, have me turn<BR>
around and say "See foolish mortal?  I have delivered you to your hotel,<BR>
without me you'd never find it bwahahaha!!!"  Bollocks, there are twelve<BR>
shuttle services, a few hundred taxis, every hotel in the city has an add<BR>
in the yellow pages, and the car rental places at SFO will print out<BR>
directions for you.  I'm good at my job, but I'm not a living god of urban<BR>
navigation.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:54:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:37 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>    You can be peaceful, nice folks & still be arrogant.  Just look at the<BR>
>English.<BR>
<BR>
You've never meet an Englishman in your life, have you.  Due to my father's<BR>
influence, I have spent hours apologizing to ambulance attendants, ER room<BR>
physicians, and surgeons for inconveniencing them.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:56:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Jeffrey D. Greenly" <jgreenly@intelos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 7:19 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Given that I get the list in digest mode I can't<BR>
> kill file him.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
I don't get it in digest, and I did kill-file him...<BR>
<BR>
Jeff<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:59:32 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
[Re: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella's hex map]<BR>
<BR>
> Just a thought:<BR>
> It seems to suffer the traditional half hex problem, in that all the half<BR>
> hexes around the edge are actually part of the planet's surface but have<BR>
> a surprising tendancy to be devoid of interesting geography.<BR>
> Perhaps if you skewed the hexes or "glued" alternate hexes together?<BR>
> Hmmm, I'm not sure that this helps, so much as makes the problem different.<BR>
<BR>
The planetary maps included with the game Space Opera<BR>
[UFP Department of Interstellar Survey Form 217/DIS.8JE]<BR>
avoid the partial hexes problem.<BR>
<BR>
It has 452 hexes in rows of<BR>
<BR>
1	1	1	1	1 (separated)<BR>
2	2	2	2	2<BR>
3	3	3	3	3<BR>
4	4	4	4	4<BR>
5	5	5	5	5<BR>
6	6	6	6	6<BR>
		35 (together)<BR>
		34<BR>
		35<BR>
		34<BR>
		35<BR>
		34<BR>
		35<BR>
6	6	6	6	6 (separated)<BR>
5	5	5	5	5<BR>
4	4	4	4	4<BR>
3	3	3	3	3<BR>
2	2	2	2	2<BR>
1	1	1	1	1<BR>
<BR>
Unlike Traveller hex maps this map is oriented with its<BR>
hexes arranged 'point up' perhaps a similar arrangement<BR>
might make an effective Traveller Map.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:07:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Jeffrey D. Greenly" <jgreenly@intelos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)<BR>
<BR>
Hey Walter,<BR>
<BR>
If by chance you're ever in Morgantown, WV, please let me buy you dinner...<BR>
Anyone who can serve that much crow to someone deserves a nice, manhole<BR>
cover sized cut of prime rib...<BR>
<BR>
Jeff<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 11:15 AM<BR>
Subject: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Legate Legion:<BR>
><BR>
> You pointed out recently how quickly stupidity gets one<BR>
> killed on a battlefield.  As an example, you told us how,<BR>
> during a Desert Storm amphibious assault, a bunch of Navy<BR>
> SEALs were so dumb that they walked right into a hail<BR>
> of 16-inch battleship shells you'd called in.  Very<BR>
> convenient to have a tale on hand of how fatally dumb Navy<BR>
> people are, considering how you detest the members of this<BR>
> service.<BR>
><BR>
> The story sounded a bit fishy to me.  It's common knowledge<BR>
> that during Desert Storm, the main purpose of the Marine<BR>
> amphibious force turned out to be deception.  Still, to<BR>
> give it the benefit of the doubt, I checked.<BR>
><BR>
> The US military has very extensive records of the Desert<BR>
> Storm operation.  Among these records are details of all<BR>
> amphibious assaults of the war, and details of Battleship<BR>
> operations during the same period.  The dates and locations,<BR>
> unfortunately for your story, don't match up.<BR>
><BR>
> They're not even close.<BR>
><BR>
> The only two amphibious assaults of the war  happened on<BR>
> 24 January (Qurah Island) and 29 January (Umm al Maradim<BR>
> Island).  Both operations were completed within one day<BR>
> of landing, as the islands were small and vulnerable.<BR>
><BR>
> The first battleship gun fire missions of the war didn't<BR>
> happen until 2 February, against targets near the Saudi<BR>
> border.<BR>
><BR>
> I thought it pretty arrogant of you to boast about getting<BR>
> fellow soldiers killed with a friendly fire mission.  Now<BR>
> I see that you were...let's be charitable and call you an<BR>
> "unreliable source".<BR>
><BR>
> Hint: When making stuff up, it doesn't pay to do so about<BR>
> recent, well documented events.<BR>
><BR>
> For those with more interest in the details, take a look at<BR>
> http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm/ds5.htm from the<BR>
> Dept. of the Navy's Naval Historical Center.<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:19:01 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
><BR>
>For all you visitors to TravellerCentral <www.travellercentral.com>, I have<BR>
>moved the weapons section to it's own website.  you can now visit the<BR>
>Mercenary's Guide to Weapons at http://weapons.travellercentral.com.<BR>
><BR>
>I've only posted about 20% of what I have so far, so stay tuned.<BR>
<BR>
And for those of you interested in a ReaLife(tm) weapons sales website,<BR>
check out Ballistica Maximus at:<BR>
<BR>
 http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/<BR>
<BR>
Their available stock includes handguns, assault rifles, explosives, rocket<BR>
launchers (man-portable & vehicle-mounted), mortars and heavier artillery<BR>
pieces, combat aircraft, and armored vehicles (including T-55s), plus ammo<BR>
of different capabilities. Combat vehicles come fully armed and<BR>
combat-ready.<BR>
They even have some patrol boats for sale though weaponry is optional (but a<BR>
lovely selection is available).<BR>
<BR>
A really useful site if you're a third-world nation with some cash to blow.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  An interesting precursor to Interstellarms, LIC. Could be useful as<BR>
a template.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:36:16 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Landgrab Review: Ylaven/Lanth<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
> > - The legendary figure from History needs more  details:  like  a<BR>
> >   name and is he reverred as a religious icon or just a person of<BR>
> >   historical note.<BR>
> <BR>
> Good, this tells me what people find interesting in the <BR>
> background and what I need to flesh-out to satisfy you.<BR>
<BR>
A historical figure may have a  statue  in  a  city  square,  may<BR>
feature on printed money and postage stamps, etc ...  along  side<BR>
other historical figures.<BR>
<BR>
A reverred semi-religious figure may  have  the  same  with  more<BR>
prominance and even become part of a local  phrase.  If  the  PCs<BR>
are sneaking around covertly their lack of knowledge  of  such  a<BR>
figure could trip them up in casual conversation ... and a  local<BR>
might exclaim "By the beard of Hari Seldon, you ain't from around<BR>
these parts are you!"<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:39:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
...<BR>
>Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
>expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a <BR>
>suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
>theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
>you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
>and resource limits..<BR>
<BR>
  Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence<BR>
will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation<BR>
mind-raping Zho policies'?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:42:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
> The fact is, and I've said it before: It is freeware. Written by<BR>
> Stuart, out of his<BR>
> own limited ability (now not so limited, thankfully) in a<BR>
> language that he knew<BR>
> and was comfortable with learning, to his own specifications, and<BR>
> incorporating<BR>
> the requests of those of us on the mailing lists. It is a  fine<BR>
> product, which runs<BR>
> nicely on the machines it is designed for. Nobody promised it was<BR>
> going to run<BR>
> on OS2 / Mac OS / Linux / Perl GCI or whatever.<BR>
> Why can't some people realise that if they are not happy with<BR>
> what somebody has<BR>
> produced, that they get down and do it for themselves to suit<BR>
> their own requirements,<BR>
> rather than getting involved in irrelevant conversations. Put up,<BR>
> or shut up...<BR>
<BR>
We should all be thankful to Stuart for writing this. It may not be perfect<BR>
(it IS version 1.0) and it cost nothing.  Those complainers out there would<BR>
like to suggest some better alternative?<BR>
<BR>
Now if I can just get Stuart to answer my emails about souce code so I can<BR>
start working on that Mac port.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:48:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
> >Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
> >expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a<BR>
> >suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
> >theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
> >you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
> >and resource limits..<BR>
><BR>
>   Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence<BR>
> will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation<BR>
> mind-raping Zho policies'?<BR>
><BR>
>         Steven Hudson<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Not to mention side effects of this drug, and guaranteed there will be some.<BR>
How will the public react when a few of those interrogated with the drug die<BR>
from reactions, or are turned into vegetables or whatever. Especially if it<BR>
turns out one of the victims was some innocent kid?<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, whenever I create a new drug, I always created potential side-effects.<BR>
A perusal of the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) can be enlightening.  Or,<BR>
if you pay attention to those new drug ads ("may cause certain sexual<BR>
side-effect" -- that can't be good).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:00:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And for those of you interested in a ReaLife(tm) weapons sales website,<BR>
> check out Ballistica Maximus at:<BR>
><BR>
>  http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/<BR>
><BR>
> Their available stock includes handguns, assault rifles,<BR>
> explosives, rocket<BR>
> launchers (man-portable & vehicle-mounted), mortars and heavier artillery<BR>
> pieces, combat aircraft, and armored vehicles (including T-55s), plus ammo<BR>
> of different capabilities. Combat vehicles come fully armed and<BR>
> combat-ready.<BR>
> They even have some patrol boats for sale though weaponry is<BR>
> optional (but a<BR>
> lovely selection is available).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
One can only wonder about an arms broker with a free website.  Damn, I hate<BR>
those ad frames!<BR>
<BR>
> A really useful site if you're a third-world nation with some<BR>
> cash to blow.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:  An interesting precursor to Interstellarms, LIC. Could<BR>
> be useful as<BR>
> a template.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I suspect MM was using InterArms as his template.  InterArms is more than<BR>
just a US gun importer.  They began as a clearing house for all forms of<BR>
military equipment.  Sam Cummings didn't get all that money importing<BR>
Wathers.  Of course, it always helps to have CIA connections.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Does IntellArms have connections with the Imperial Intelligence<BR>
Services?<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:05:20 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
...<BR>
>    You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
>Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand would have<BR>
>had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans to help<BR>
>England.  South Africa would have had to fight through the Germans &<BR>
>Italians.  And, India had its own problems, internally & externally.<BR>
...<BR>
>    The Boer's thought that Hitler was the greatest thing since sliced<BR>
>bread, & many joined the South African Nazi Party & did everything they<BR>
>could to hurt the English War Effort.  The only help the English had were<BR>
>from the Indians & some of the Tribes, but they bearly held onto South<BR>
>Africa.<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, the obvious failing here with attempting Platonic thought-experiments<BR>
would be ... the lack of thought?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:06:51 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>Lets see here, YOU ARE SO TOTALY WRONG.  Pearl Harbor was an American<BR>
Military Base, therefore American Soil.  A Territory is American Soil, it<BR>
does not matter if it is a state or not, it is still part of America.<<BR>
<BR>
Unless established by treaty a military base is not a default<BR>
extraterritorial area like an embassy. Hawaii was not a state. It was an<BR>
attack on a  territorial possession, not American soil. Otherwise it<BR>
wouldn't be the only sneak attack on American soil ever, as the Japanese<BR>
also attacked the Philippines and other Pacific territories.<BR>
<BR>
>The Hawaiians are & were American Citizens.<<BR>
<BR>
They are now, I don't recall when or if they were granted citizenship before<BR>
becoming a state.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, I hope there are to Peurto<sp> Ricans on the list to explain that<BR>
whil Peurto Rico is a Territory, they are still Americans & it is still<BR>
American Territory.<<BR>
<BR>
Puerto Ricans were granted citizenship by a specific act of Congress<BR>
separate from and considerably after the date the island was taken as a<BR>
territory from Spain.<BR>
And of course it is American territory. Whether it is American "soil" is<BR>
another question.<BR>
<BR>
>And, as such as much a part of the US as Arizona is.<<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't. Ask any Puerto Rican who supports independence.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, while Gitmo in Cuba is on the island of Cuba, it is still American<BR>
Soil, as it is an American Military Base.<<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't, it is an American military base, not part of the United States.<BR>
<BR>
>As such, if Castro ordered an attack upon it, it would be an overt act of<BR>
war.<<BR>
<BR>
Of course it would. An attack on a country does not have to be directed at<BR>
its home soil to be overt. Why would you think otherwise?<BR>
<BR>
>Picky, picky.  I'd still be plenty pissed if somebody set off a vest pocket<BR>
nuke in Puerto Rico.<<BR>
<BR>
So would I. But little details lead to big revisions if not dealt with in a<BR>
timely fashion.<BR>
<BR>
>It was a United States Navy Base, and as such, federal property.  Also,<BR>
territories are part of the United States, and subject to all federal laws.<<BR>
<BR>
Federal property does not make it American soil. Nor does being a territory<BR>
make some country or place native soil by default. The 14th Amendment grants<BR>
citizenship only to those born specifically in the United States with no<BR>
mention of territories anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
No history I have ever read refers to Pearl Harbor as American soil. And<BR>
while I am certainly patriotic and definitely imperialistic, trying to make<BR>
Pearl Harbor into American soil does little but to destroy credibility. On<BR>
December 7, 1941 it wasn't. That doesn't mean American citizens didn't die<BR>
there, it doesn't mean it wasn't an act of war, it simply means it wasn't an<BR>
attack on American soil. The only time American soil was invaded during WWII<BR>
was in Alaska. Some few casualties were also cause on American soil by<BR>
balloon bombs. And that is all.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:22:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
Minor Correction to your post...not picking a fight:<BR>
<BR>
Steve Wrote: -Since most of my family is from West By God Virginia, I have<BR>
to make sure<BR>
everyone understands that we DO NOT chase after the sheep if they are<BR>
relatives.  That's Arkansas...-<BR>
<BR>
That's SOUTHERN Arkansas, right around Hot Springs...any wonder why the poor<BR>
boy blunder we have in the White House is a little bipolar, and goes after<BR>
anything that moves? (After all, look at who he married and call her pretty,<BR>
and there is no way you DRINK Monica pretty.)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Steve Charlton" <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:08 AM<BR>
Subject: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > What a wonderful display of tolerance....<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Philosophy 101 according to Legate Legion:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > All Catholics are going to hell.<BR>
> > I have a right to pick a fight with anyone any time.<BR>
> > Everyone in [insert area] is crazy.<BR>
> > Everyone in [insert second area] is either a 'sheep'<BR>
> > or a 'queer', both of which are typically considered<BR>
> > pejorative.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I don't know about all of that, and I certainly do not agree with<BR>
everything Legate says, but in<BR>
> this case Legate is suffering from Phoenix syndrome, where large<BR>
quantities of brain cells are sucked<BR>
> away to be used in the many public highway improvements constantly ongoing<BR>
in the Phoenix area...<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, the Phoenix/Tucson feud is a long and time-honored tradition.<BR>
As a Tucsonan, it behooves me<BR>
> to also extoll the virtues of Zachary's Pizza, Rincon Market and (my<BR>
favorite) Bookman's Used and<BR>
> Slightly Overpriced Books.  I am also required to point out that most of<BR>
Maricopa Country is covered<BR>
> in concrete, and the chances of getting from one side of the Phoenix metro<BR>
area in less than a day are<BR>
> pretty much nil, thanks to all of the road construction paid for by Tucson<BR>
tax dollars.<BR>
><BR>
> And the Sheep or Queers remark comes from a movie (Officer and a<BR>
Gentleman, I think) and years of<BR>
> general regional abuse.  Since most of my family is from West By God<BR>
Virginia, I have to make sure<BR>
> everyone understands that we DO NOT chase after the sheep if they are<BR>
relatives.  That's Arkansas...<BR>
><BR>
> I don't know that all Catholics are going to Hell, but I suspect a number<BR>
of them think most will go<BR>
> to Purgatory for a while...<BR>
><BR>
> Finally, as to picking a fight... it takes two to do that.<BR>
><BR>
> Steve Charlton<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:23:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>New tactics & weapons always surprise your enemy, thats why they are<BR>
>>new.  Old tactics & weapons never surprise your enemy, as they already<BR>
>>know them.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, technically they suprise them because they are new, they aren't<BR>
>new because they are surprises.  And you still have situations where<BR>
>a very old tactic can surprise individual soldiers.  Yes, your army knows<BR>
>about Snipers, but that particular sergeant of yours was surprised by that<BR>
>particular sniper behind that particular bush.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, but this is Tactical Surprise & it only lasts for a little bit,<BR>
not for an entire battle.  I.e. lets say I was able to arm just the<BR>
Rebelforces in the American Revolution with PGMP-12s, what would have been<BR>
the outcome?  Well, England would have never been a world power & both, at<BR>
least, North & South America would be part of the US.  This is IMHO, of<BR>
course.<BR>
<BR>
>(And since your *army* isn't surprised by the tactic of using snipers, the<BR>
>survivors of that attack should have a means of dealing with that<BR>
particular<BR>
>sniper.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, but until you have a counter-measure, you do not have the means<BR>
to deal with it.  Like Snipers, you fire in their general direction, as well<BR>
as call in a Fire Support Mission.<BR>
<BR>
>>Sorta like Paratroops.  Now, they do not surprise anyone, but when they<BR>
>>were first used they scared the shit out of a lot of people.<BR>
><BR>
>If your paratroops aren't surprising anyone, they should stay home.<BR>
>Surprising people is their job, remember? <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course, but then we know what paratroops are, & how to deal with<BR>
them.  And, also, if we do not know where they are going then that would be<BR>
a problem, but due to the fact that the entire US is covered in Radar means<BR>
that that would be kinda hard.<BR>
<BR>
>(OK, maybe not tactically, but at least operationally or strategically...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct.  You may not have tactical, or local surprise, but you should<BR>
have a couple of days of strategic surprise.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:50:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think he's serious.   Whether or not he is, I don't think he should<BR>
>be taken seriously.  People who say things like that want attention and we<BR>
>are giving him a lot of it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:03:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>> >Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>>only sneak attack on American Soil.<<BR>
>>Pearl Harbor was not American soil. Hawaii was a territory at the time,<BR>
not<BR>
>>a state.<BR>
><BR>
>Picky, picky.  I'd still be plenty pissed if somebody set off a vest pocket<BR>
>nuke in Puerto Rico.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So would I, not only because it was an attack upon American Soil, but<BR>
they used a nuclear weapon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:08:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Compare American POW counts in the Phillipines with Japanese POW<BR>
>counts at Tarawa and Iwo Jima.  Yes, it was a cultural thing, but the<BR>
>Japanese weren't known for giving up.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You have to also remember, like you said the, cultural thing.  In our<BR>
culture, it is honorable for a commander, when he has no other option to<BR>
surrender<BR>
<BR>
>How many American servicemen were willing to undertake deliberately<BR>
>suicidal missions?  I don't mean men caught in tight spots doing their<BR>
>jobs till the end (like Torpedo 8 at Midway), I mean go out with the<BR>
>*certainty* that they wouldn't be coming back?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not many, but then it is not in our culture to spend lives like they<BR>
would water.<BR>
<BR>
>We "won" the battle of wills because we smashed the Japanese to<BR>
>pieces, then hit them with an awesome weapon of inconcievable power...<BR>
>and then hit them with it again.  They blinked right before they would<BR>
>have fallen down anyway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, but the Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands would have cost<BR>
us more people that we were willing to lose.<BR>
<BR>
>If the USA had seen Los Angeles and New York City atomized in early<BR>
>1945, how much will to fight would the American leaders have been<BR>
>able to gather?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not many.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm an American, I love my country.  I'm very glad the Manhattan project<BR>
>gave us the big stick first, because I have no illusions about who would<BR>
>have won WW2 had Germany or Japan built and used it first.  That isn't<BR>
>a matter of wills.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Against a weapon that can destroy a whole city, what does will matter?<BR>
Will only matters when one is able to fight back & how can one fight against<BR>
a weapon that will totaly destroy a city?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:15:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
From: Steve Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com><BR>
<BR>
>Well, I don't know about all of that, and I certainly do not agree with<BR>
everything Legate says, but in<BR>
>this case Legate is suffering from Phoenix syndrome, where large quantities<BR>
of brain cells are sucked<BR>
>away to be used in the many public highway improvements constantly ongoing<BR>
in the Phoenix area...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, we do need more highways.  So that I can get from Glendale to<BR>
Tempe in less than 2 hours.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, the Phoenix/Tucson feud is a long and time-honored tradition.  As<BR>
a Tucsonan, it behooves me<BR>
>to also extoll the virtues of Zachary's Pizza, Rincon Market and (my<BR>
favorite) Bookman's Used and<BR>
>Slightly Overpriced Books.  I am also required to point out that most of<BR>
Maricopa Country is covered<BR>
>in concrete, and the chances of getting from one side of the Phoenix metro<BR>
area in less than a day are<BR>
>pretty much nil, thanks to all of the road construction paid for by Tucson<BR>
tax dollars.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Now, here I have to agree with you on two points.  Zachary's Pizza is a<BR>
kick-ass place to get a good pie, though one not as good as one that one is<BR>
able to get in Chicago.<BR>
    Bookman's is a good place to find, well books, of course it is as good<BR>
as Mr. Books up here in Phoenix.<BR>
    As for Tucson tax dollars, well, what do you expect us to use them for.<BR>
To be honest 95% of road improvements in the Phoenix Metro Area are paid for<BR>
by increases in sales tax.  And, Maricopa County is not totaly covered in<BR>
concrete, we do have a few parks.<BR>
<BR>
>And the Sheep or Queers remark comes from a movie (Officer and a Gentleman,<BR>
I think) and years of<BR>
>general regional abuse.  Since most of my family is from West By God<BR>
Virginia, I have to make sure<BR>
>everyone understands that we DO NOT chase after the sheep if they are<BR>
relatives.  That's Arkansas...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You forget the remark can also be made about Arizona.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know that all Catholics are going to Hell, but I suspect a number<BR>
of them think most will go<BR>
>to Purgatory for a while...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    If they are lucky.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
>Finally, as to picking a fight... it takes two to do that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2476<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2477</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2477<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
OT: Computers<BR>
World Canon [long]<BR>
GTL10 400-ton Gerlekebalu-class Small Lighter<BR>
RE: Landgrab Review - Yori<BR>
Slow learners<BR>
RE: Commonwealth Navies<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:24:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>    Basicly, Doug, arrogance is not a bad thing, always.  For example, you<BR>
>>drive for Super Shuttle, right?  If I flew into where you are & got a ride<BR>
>>from you to my hotel, you would know how to get there, correct?  As such,<BR>
>>you would have the right to be arrogant.  The same way with the Zhodani.<BR>
><BR>
>Why would I be arrogant?  that's not the same thing as pride, you know.<BR>
>What would you expect me to do when we got to the Shery Fish, have me turn<BR>
>around and say "See foolish mortal?  I have delivered you to your hotel,<BR>
>without me you'd never find it bwahahaha!!!"  Bollocks, there are twelve<BR>
>shuttle services, a few hundred taxis, every hotel in the city has an add<BR>
>in the yellow pages, and the car rental places at SFO will print out<BR>
>directions for you.  I'm good at my job, but I'm not a living god of urban<BR>
>navigation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    LOL.  Actually, Doug, if that is how you feel, that is how you feel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:25:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    You can be peaceful, nice folks & still be arrogant.  Just look at the<BR>
>>English.<BR>
><BR>
>You've never meet an Englishman in your life, have you.  Due to my father's<BR>
>influence, I have spent hours apologizing to ambulance attendants, ER room<BR>
>physicians, and surgeons for inconveniencing them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, is England full of Englishmen?<BR>
    And, that is being a nice person.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:26:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>     Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a <BR>
>> papist, well, he will<BR>
>> be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my <BR>
>> Highlander relatives<BR>
>> are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't <BR>
>> the nice place,<BR>
>> but the very bad place.<BR>
><BR>
>The Gorbals? <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Worse.  Casa Grande.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:22:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>    Do you forget about the Japanese Peace Movement?<BR>
><BR>
>Nope.  Did you forget about the American Peace Movement?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Which basicly folded after Pearl Harbor, & the few that were still<BR>
around, after the war, the ones that were still around threw in the towel<BR>
after what was found out.<BR>
<BR>
>>Not really, we had more will to win than they did.  We were avenging the<BR>
>>only sneak attack on American Soil.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, that's why American policy in WW2 made Hitler the #1 priority.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, who was the bigger threat?  The Japanese, or the Germans.<BR>
<BR>
>Will to win seems like a label of hindsight to me.<BR>
>Americans had more will to win, therefore they won.  The winning proves<BR>
>they had more will to win.  Never mind that America had more modern<BR>
>and more massive industry, more manpower, more technology,<BR>
>more resources...yep, it was all will to win.  Here's the proof - America<BR>
>won.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The Germans has the lead in modern & massive industry as well as<BR>
technology.  We had the lead in manpower & resources.  Hell, the Germans<BR>
were not even into Wartime Production levels until 43-44.<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm, that sounds kind of circular, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yeppers, but true.<BR>
<BR>
><<regarding the Voltaire quote>><BR>
>>Gee, could we really be speaking French?  No, I don't think so.<BR>
>>England won the war against Napoelon.<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, and it was all through English grit and determination.  Sitting<BR>
>behind a giant moat with the world's largest navy while Napoleon<BR>
>bled his own armies to death elsewhere had nothing to do with it. <G><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Again will.  Napoleon bled his armies upon multiple fronts.  He had the<BR>
will to win, but he spread it too thinly.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and as for South American history - I'm very light on the subject.<BR>
>Could you illuminate me with situations where tiny, powerless countries<BR>
>defeated large, powerful ones through "will to win" alone?  You're sure<BR>
>the little country didn't have advantages (like terrain, or outside aid,<BR>
>or other niggly details like that) to make the difference with?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Around the time of the American Civil War, down in South America, IIRC<BR>
Brazil, Peru, & Chile fought a war against a small land-locked nation<BR>
(sorry, I can see it, I just cannot name it).  Anyway, they did not have the<BR>
advantage of outside aid, as they were land locked, or terrain, as it was<BR>
rainforest & all nations that fought had rainforest, but that could have<BR>
helped the defenders.  Their advantage was lines of communications.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:41:55 PDT<BR>
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Computers<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> spake thusly:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I've bite my tongue on this topic for long enough, this mail was the last<BR>
>straw. In light of all this Microsoft bashing I would point out, whether<BR>
>Microsoft's motives a right or wrong, that if it hadn't been for that<BR>
>company the PC home market would not exist. We'd all be using Macs<BR>
<BR>
As the Lord God intended...<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:03:47 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: World Canon [long]<BR>
<BR>
Here's a start to the list of canon references to worlds. I've put in<BR>
all the ones I could find in JTAS 7-24 and Best of JTAS 1&2 (all the<BR>
issues I have). In most cases I have listed entries even if they are<BR>
trivial. There are two cases where I have skipped references to avoid<BR>
swamping the more useful stuff:<BR>
<BR>
1. Fifth Frontier War Events: These affected many worlds. I have omitted<BR>
all TNS entries from JTAS 9-20, except for ones with significant other<BR>
information (e.g., the number of SDBs stationed in the Regina system).<BR>
<BR>
2. History of the Sword Worlds: Many worlds were listed in the JTAS 18<BR>
13-17 Contact article with dates of joining/leaving/being conquered by<BR>
the Sword Worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully the format's obvious. Enjoy!<BR>
<BR>
Antares:<BR>
=======<BR>
2406 Githiaski<BR>
        JTAS 16 12-14, 27 (Contact)<BR>
<BR>
Dark Nebula:<BR>
===========<BR>
1919 Kuzu/Kusyu<BR>
        JTAS 20 10-13<BR>
        JTAS 20 24-25 (Bestiary)<BR>
        JTAS 20 37-38<BR>
???? Stataorlai<BR>
        JTAS 20 28-30 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Waeoisya<BR>
        JTAS 20 28-30 (Amber Zone)<BR>
<BR>
Empty Quarter:<BR>
=============<BR>
0426 Marhaban<BR>
        JTAS 11 12-15 (Contact)<BR>
<BR>
Foreven:<BR>
=======<BR>
1915 Gatina<BR>
        JTAS 18 9-10 (Amber Zone)<BR>
3020 Gwydion<BR>
        JTAS 16 9-11 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2518 Lorelei<BR>
        JTAS 21 38-40 (Amber Zone)<BR>
3116 Malefolge<BR>
        JTAS 14 36-39 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2211 Purfyr<BR>
        JTAS 16 40-42, 45 (Amber Zone)<BR>
3015 Pynchan<BR>
        JTAS 7 36-37 or BJTAS 2 28-29 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2214 Ranther<BR>
        BJTAS 2 43-44 (Amber Zone)<BR>
32?? Raschev<BR>
        JTAS 17 40-43<BR>
2017 Sturray<BR>
        JTAS 22 37-38 (Amber Zone)<BR>
<BR>
Gushemege:<BR>
=========<BR>
0437 Jaeyelya<BR>
        JTAS 15 13-15, 47 (Contact)<BR>
<BR>
Reavers Deep:<BR>
============<BR>
2724 Virshash<BR>
        JTAS 12 10-11, 14-15 (Contact)<BR>
<BR>
Spinward Marches:<BR>
================<BR>
0912 899-176<BR>
        JTAS 13 37-41 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1824 Adabicci<BR>
        JTAS 20 26-27, 45 (Casual Encounter)<BR>
3005 Aramanx<BR>
        JTAS 24 9-11 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1217 Arkadia<BR>
        JTAS 22 13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0931 Asteltine<BR>
        JTAS 19 11<BR>
0414 Attica<BR>
        JTAS 10 27<BR>
1515 Calit<BR>
        JTAS 22 13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1939 Craw<BR>
        JTAS 10 16-22<BR>
        JTAS 11 37-42<BR>
0627 Darrian<BR>
        JTAS 14 16-18 (Contact)<BR>
0830 Debarre<BR>
        JTAS 19 11<BR>
1413 Denotam<BR>
        JTAS 22 13-15, 48 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2201 Dentus<BR>
        JTAS 21 5 (TNS)<BR>
1811 Dinom<BR>
        JTAS 8 10-12 or BJTAS 2 40-42 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1705 Efate<BR>
        JTAS 8 5 (TNS)<BR>
        JTAS 8 6-7 or BJTAS 2 24-25 (Amber Zone)<BR>
        JTAS 23 12-14, 27 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0425 Engrange<BR>
        JTAS 14 17 (Contact)<BR>
2417 Equus<BR>
        JTAS 14 5 (TNS)<BR>
1417 Ficant<BR>
        JTAS 22 13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2607 Focaline<BR>
        JTAS 10 40-41<BR>
1818 Forboldn<BR>
        BJTAS 1 9 (Bestiary)<BR>
3025 Fornice<BR>
        JTAS 11 33-34 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1223 Gram<BR>
        JTAS 12 38 (Casual Encounter)<BR>
        JTAS 18 13-17 (Contact)<BR>
1429 Gunn<BR>
        BJTAS 2 8 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2402 Heya<BR>
        JTAS 23 4 (TNS)<BR>
0426 Ilium<BR>
        JTAS 14 16 (Contact)<BR>
0624 Jacent<BR>
        JTAS 14 17 (Contact)<BR>
3001 Jesedipere<BR>
        JTAS 18 44 (Bestiary)<BR>
1123 Joyeuse<BR>
        BJTAS 2 8-9 (Amber Zone)<BR>
        JTAS 18 13-17 (Contact)<BR>
0534 Karin<BR>
        JTAS 19 33-34, 17 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2202 Kinorb<BR>
        JTAS 8 5 (TNS)<BR>
1719 Lanth<BR>
        JTAS 9 54-55 (Amber Zone)<BR>
        JTAS 18 13-17 (Contact)<BR>
1803 Menorb<BR>
        JTAS 9 13<BR>
        JTAS 23 15-19 (Contact)<BR>
0527 Mire<BR>
        JTAS 14 16-17 (Contact)<BR>
1315 Mirriam<BR>
        JTAS 22 13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0608 Ninjar<BR>
        JTAS 17 4 (TNS)<BR>
3035 Prilissa<BR>
        JTAS 9 37 (Bestiary)<BR>
0808 Quar<BR>
        JTAS 17 4 (TNS)<BR>
1910 Regina<BR>
        JTAS 9 6 (TNS)<BR>
        JTAS 9 30 (TNS)<BR>
        JTAS 9 54-55 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0416 Retinae<BR>
        JTAS 13 5 (TNS)<BR>
1822 Rhabwar<BR>
        BJTAS 1 10-11 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2716 Rhylanor<BR>
        JTAS 9 6-7 (TNS)<BR>
0427 Roget<BR>
        JTAS 14 17 (Contact)<BR>
2007 Roup<BR>
        BJTAS 2 22-23 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1809 Ruie<BR>
        BJTAS 1 4-5 (Amber Zone)<BR>
        JTAS 7 5 (TNS)<BR>
1216 Stellatio<BR>
        JTAS 22 13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1434 Tarkine<BR>
        JTAS 12 12-13 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0717 Thanber<BR>
        JTAS 19 11<BR>
0202 Thengo<BR>
        BJTAS 1 17, 26 (Bestiary)<BR>
1511 Tionale<BR>
        JTAS 9 28-29 (Amber Zone)<BR>
1311 Tremous Dex<BR>
        JTAS 19 11<BR>
1339 Trexalon<BR>
        JTAS 19 11<BR>
2110 Yori<BR>
        JTAS 13 5 (TNS)<BR>
0421 Zamine<BR>
        JTAS 14 16-18 (Contact)<BR>
2908 Zila<BR>
        JTAS 18 40<BR>
2934 Zyra<BR>
        JTAS 11 6-7 (Amber Zone)<BR>
<BR>
Solomani Rim:<BR>
============<BR>
2921 Arcturus<BR>
        JTAS 18 37-39 (Amber Zone)<BR>
0809 Azun<BR>
        JTAS 15 20-21, 35 (Amber Zone)<BR>
        JTAS 15 36-43<BR>
2920 Banasdan<BR>
        JTAS 18 37-39 (Amber Zone)<BR>
3109 Champa<BR>
        JTAS 7 7-12<BR>
0717 Furioso<BR>
        JTAS 17 6-7 (Bestiary)<BR>
2506 Gadden<BR>
        JTAS 24 40-42 (Amber Zone)<BR>
2406 Inidu<BR>
        JTAS 16 22<BR>
1711 Kasaan<BR>
        JTAS 15 44-45 (Bestiary)<BR>
2807 Phireene<BR>
        JTAS 19 47-48 (Casual Encounter)<BR>
2509 Scaramouche<BR>
        JTAS 7 5 (TNS)<BR>
1827 Terra<BR>
        JTAS 22 25-30<BR>
<BR>
Unknown Sectors:<BR>
===============<BR>
???? Argos<BR>
        JTAS 21 47-48 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Cocta<BR>
        BJTAS 1 18-19 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Cyris<BR>
        JTAS 10 13-15 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Grizel<BR>
        JTAS 19 13-17 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Kagh'kir/Saviztah<BR>
        JTAS 21 33-36 (Contact)<BR>
???? Krajraha<BR>
        JTAS 12 33-35 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Lantoli<BR>
        JTAS 11 10-11 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Lodaer<BR>
        JTAS 13 24-26 (Casual Encounter)<BR>
???? Melantris<BR>
        JTAS 2444-47 (Contact)<BR>
???? Nagaschk<BR>
        JTAS 13 13-14 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Onicrom<BR>
        JTAS 11 9-10 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Sainte Foy<BR>
        JTAS 15 7-10 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Sharmun<BR>
        BJTAS 1 6-7, 15 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Smaeta, Tahauri, Drenghai, Moloaku<BR>
        JTAS 14 40-42 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Suevanis<BR>
        JTAS 19 36 (Bestiary)<BR>
???? Sverdan<BR>
        JTAS 14 44-47 (Striker variant)<BR>
???? Taldor<BR>
        BJTAS 2 45-46 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Vendetierre<BR>
        JTAS 20 6-9 (Amber Zone)<BR>
???? Vrirhlanz<BR>
        JTAS 22 40-43 (Contact)<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:36:25 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: GTL10 400-ton Gerlekebalu-class Small Lighter<BR>
<BR>
Prilissa Highport has been building 400dT lighters (affectionately known<BR>
as "microlighters") for the Hammermium Corporation since 493. The design<BR>
has changed little over the years; HC wanted a vessel for the regular<BR>
run of agricultural produce from Prilissa to Trin, but volumes were not<BR>
enough to warrant use of the 800dT lighters commonly used by larger<BR>
corporations. It was anticipated that the design would eventually be<BR>
replaced by larger ships but the expected expansion of Prilissa's<BR>
population and agricultural production never happened. <BR>
<BR>
The microlighter is now in use on many of HC's other routes, but demand<BR>
for new ships is currently low. The Prilissans have been struggling to<BR>
keep their shipyard busy with orders from other, less regular customers;<BR>
results have been mixed.<BR>
<BR>
Crew: Captain/Pilot, Navigator/Pilot, Sensors/Comm Operator/Cargomaster,<BR>
Engineer, Mechanic.<BR>
<BR>
Hull: 400-ton VGSL, Medium Frame, Cheap Materials , Durasteel (Standard)<BR>
Armored Hull (DR 100), Standard Compartmentalization.<BR>
<BR>
Control Areas: Basic Bridge.<BR>
<BR>
Engineering: Engineering, 52 Maneuver Drive, Utility, 18.9 Man-Hours/day<BR>
Maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
Stores: 262.5 Spacedock/Cargo.<BR>
<BR>
Totals: EMass 426.9 stons, LMass 1,739.4 stons, Cost MCr15.45, HP<BR>
37,500, Size Mod 9, HT 12, CP 91.<BR>
<BR>
Performance: Acc 1.20 / 4.87 Gs, Airspeed 2,498 mph, Skimming Airspeed<BR>
7,066 mph, Aerostatic Lift 2,080 stons.<BR>
<BR>
Sample Times (Earth Std, Full Load): Orbit 0.19 Hrs, Escape Velocity<BR>
0.27 Hrs, 100D 5.84 Hrs, Earth-Mars 100.25 Hrs.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
P.S. This is effectively part of my Prilissa Landgrab write-up and will<BR>
appear on a separate page when I get around to it (probably when I've<BR>
finished writing up the highport). I'm not a gearhead; hopefully this<BR>
design makes sense! It was built with Tom Bont's GT Ships app, so the<BR>
numbers should be correct. I "cheated" to get the Spacedock/Cargo entry;<BR>
it's actually one spacedock module and 262.5 hold. Close enough for<BR>
government work...<BR>
<BR>
P.P.S. I'm only dealing with email erratically due to the baby. Please<BR>
be patient if you want a reply.<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:01:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Landgrab Review - Yori<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
> There is almost no deviation from the BTC text, with only a Gas<BR>
> Giant losing a lot of moons.<BR>
<BR>
More by luck than by design.  Some of my notes on Yori date  back<BR>
to 1982 and 95% of them pre-date GT (and BtC).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> He's steered well clear of the reference to a possible<BR>
> Ancient's site in the BTC text, without contradicting it.<BR>
<BR>
According to the Regency Sourcebook (TNE) in 1117 no Ancient site<BR>
is listed in the UPP, but by 1202 there is.  Evidently  the  site<BR>
was discovered sometime between those two dates.  My write-up  is<BR>
circa 1105, thus no mention is made.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the Advisor's didn't have<BR>
> something to do with that.  Quite what the relationship is I'm<BR>
> not sure, but their pronouncements about ascendant gods could<BR>
> be based on more than just their religious texts.<BR>
<BR>
Plot seed!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I do have a few questions though.  They are probably<BR>
> nitpicking, but nevermind:<BR>
> <BR>
> - Why is there a -2 penalty to the EDU roll for both Human <BR>
> and Zhurphani?  It is never explained anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
The Yorian education system is much more vocational  than  common<BR>
on other worlds.  Thus  there  is  an  additional  pre-enlistment<BR>
skill at the expense of some general education.  I'll have to add<BR>
something to the page.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - G:Starports states that local law and political authority <BR>
> aren't in force within the SPA's port.  You describe Geronimo<BR>
> Field as a being run as a consortium of the SPA, the local<BR>
> government and two megacorps.  I took SPA ports to /be/ "The<BR>
> Imperiums".  I am assuming that you have G:Starports of course<BR>
> to have read this.<g><BR>
<BR>
Have it, read it, liked it.  As stated above  95%  of  the  notes<BR>
pre-date GT.  Besides, this isn't a contradiction: Geronemo Field<BR>
is still (I)SPA 'owned' but part of  the  routine  operation  has<BR>
been 'privatised' (or contracted  out).  The  local  government's<BR>
involvement within the XT line is purely commercial (not legal or<BR>
political).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - Tell us more about the Exile Camp orbiting the same Gas Giant<BR>
> as the Research Lab that /isn't/ studying any Ancient artifacts,<BR>
> honest. :)<BR>
<BR>
The Zurphani are descended from  the  Zerp  (cf.  Theta  Borealis<BR>
Sector by Group One).  This fact isn't on the site  yet  but  was<BR>
posted to the TML.  The  Zerp  are  highly  aggressive  (a  cross<BR>
between Star Trek's Klingons and 2300ADs  Kafers).  The  Zurphani<BR>
were pacifists who went into self-exile.  Into each generation of<BR>
Zurphani are born some Zerp  ...  who  by  Zurphani  (and  human)<BR>
standards are complete raving psychopaths.  These are exiled from<BR>
Yori.   IMTU  to  save  time  I  just  used  the  "KVIsOR  Rocks"<BR>
supplement from Living Steel (with some minor  changes)  for  the<BR>
camp.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - Cheeta Industries.  Why did they decide to move the<BR>
> operations out to a remote moon in the outer reaches of the<BR>
> system when the religious climate changed.  Why didn't they<BR>
> move to another star system, where they could have stayed close<BR>
> to a major Starport and thus shipping lanes and workforce.  Or<BR>
> was there something out there that they wanted and used the<BR>
> sea-change as an excuse?<BR>
<BR>
Plot seed!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - Liked the inclusion of the Event/Encounter tables and Animal<BR>
> stats.  Especially the animal descriptions.  Especially the<BR>
> Desert Coral.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.  I wasn't sure how people would react  to  Desert  Coral.<BR>
(Characters would react by saying "Yuck!")<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> By-the-way, how do you calculate the values for the Altitude <BR>
> table?  I don't ever remember seeing that anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
The pressure at  altitude  formula  came  from  the  2300AD  Tech<BR>
mailing list:<BR>
<BR>
| Scale height (H) is equal to<BR>
|<BR>
| H = (k*T) / (m*g)<BR>
|<BR>
| where <BR>
| k is Boltzmann's constant (1.38E-23 joule/degree)<BR>
| T is the temperature of the gas (Kelvin)<BR>
| m is the mean molecular mass of the gas <BR>
| g is the surface gravity<BR>
|<BR>
| Everything must be SI units, of course.<BR>
|<BR>
| Okay, lets calculate the scale height for Earth. We'll do this<BR>
| as simple as possible. We'll assume the mean temperature of the<BR>
| atmosphere is 280K. We'll assume the atmosphere is 78% N2 and<BR>
| 22% O2, of the most common isotopes. Surface gravity is about<BR>
| 9.8. The mass for N2 in atomic mass units (u) is about 28.01<BR>
| (you can get a better number from any set of chemical data).<BR>
| For O2 it is about 31.99. One atomic mass unit is 1.66E-27 kg,<BR>
| (the SI unit). Thus, N2 has a mass of 4.65E-26, O2 of 5.31E-26.<BR>
| Considering 22% O2, the mean molecular mass of the atmosphere<BR>
| is 4.79E-26 kg.<BR>
|<BR>
| Thus we get (1.38E-23 * 280) / (4.79E-26 * 9.8) = 8200 meters.<BR>
| (Which seems to be about right, the scale height of Earth's<BR>
| atmosphere is usually said to be 8 kilometers) We see from the<BR>
| equation that scale height will increase with temperature<BR>
| (higher kinetic energy of gasses) and decrease with molecular<BR>
| mass (atmospheres made of heavy gasses are less extensive).<BR>
|<BR>
| To calculate the pressure at a given altitude, we use<BR>
|<BR>
| P = P0 * e^(-h/H)<BR>
|<BR>
| where P is the pressure<BR>
| P0 is the surface pressure<BR>
| h is the altitude<BR>
| H is the scale height<BR>
| and e is the base of the natural logarithm (2.718).<BR>
<BR>
I  simply  plugged  this  into  a  spreadsheet  and  altered  the<BR>
necessary values for Yori.<BR>
<BR>
For temperature at altitude there was  a  rule  in  The  Mountain<BR>
Environment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In summary: just what the Penguin ordered.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:03:00 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Slow learners<BR>
<BR>
  A sampling of some recent traffic:<BR>
<BR>
>I see no reason to respond to any future posts by Legate<BR>
>Legion. I urge the rest of you to take the same position<BR>
>in hopes of a less hostile TML. If this sort of behavior<BR>
>and language on his part persists I would urge someone to<BR>
>speak to the list admin (Rob Miracle?) about it.<BR>
...<BR>
>50% of the posts in a digest coming from one man, seems someone has<BR>
>far too much time on their hands, and should get out more..... (open the<BR>
>window there's this big wide world out there....)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  Does anyone dare ask the individual in question to repeat his carefully<BR>
thought out views on GURPS and its players/writers/buyers, and why they're<BR>
all weenie munchkin thieves who deserve to be killed?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:03:08 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Commonwealth Navies<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
...<BR>
>The combined Commonwealth Navies basically ruled the Indian, Mediterranean<BR>
>and Atlantic. Other than harrasment by German U-boats, it was pretty simple<BR>
>for New Zealand & Australia to ship troops and basic food-stuffs to England,<BR>
>which they did throughout the war.<BR>
<BR>
  And the RCN escorted lots of ships that the U-boats attacked! Hmm, somehow<BR>
that doesn't quite sound right...<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:05:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 4:35 AM, postmark.design@btinternet.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> It seems to suffer the traditional half hex problem, in that all the half<BR>
> hexes around the edge are actually part of the planet's surface but have<BR>
> a surprising tendancy to be devoid of interesting geography.<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't thought of that. I don't usually have that problem myself, but I<BR>
can see how it might influence one choose the "whole" hexes when placing<BR>
topographical features.<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps if you skewed the hexes or "glued" alternate hexes together?<BR>
<BR>
Skewed? How do you mean? I have seen maps where all the hexes are left whole<BR>
and are put on one side of each triangular face. I may make a variation on<BR>
this map doing that.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm, I'm not sure that this helps, so much as makes the problem different.<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't in the area I was looking for comments on, but a good point<BR>
nonetheless.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:48:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 3:58 -0400 22/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>    We never invaded England, raided, yes, invaded no.  If we had invaded<BR>
>England, then history would have been different.<BR>
<BR>
Invaded not conquered. Caesar invaded Britain. Claudius (IIRC) <BR>
actually conquered it.<BR>
<BR>
William Wallace. Invasion. Failed.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:45:16 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 3:58 -0400 22/5/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
> >I never had that impression, and the text in the books suggests<BR>
> >otherwise; the whole point is that they have a duty to each other,<BR>
> >something that arrogance would contradict/conflict with.<BR>
>    Geez, are we getting PC on this ML?  Being arrogant is not a bad thing<BR>
>people, it is a good thing.  Arrogance is only pride in one's own self.  The<BR>
>Zhodani do take pride in themselves, correct?<BR>
<BR>
Arrogance: 'The taking of too much upon oneself as one's right; undue <BR>
assumption of dignity, authority or knowledge; aggressive conceit, <BR>
presumption or haughtiness.'<BR>
<BR>
Oxford Shorter English Dictionary Third Edition.<BR>
<BR>
So no, I am not being PC with you. I don't doubt that the Zhodani <BR>
have pride in themselves, but I'm pretty certain excessive arrogance <BR>
would be treated by the Tavrchedl'. It breaks with the descriptions <BR>
of the ideals of Zhodani culture and Tavrziansh given in the text in <BR>
the various publications on them.<BR>
<BR>
So, IMO, arrogance, especially excessive levels is an unwanted thing.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2477<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2478<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
RE: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: WWI<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Client States (was: The Will to Win)<BR>
Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Comet Defence Systems<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Linkoeping (Sweden) TML meeting<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
re: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)  <BR>
RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:28:27 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
At 21:29 -0400 21/5/00, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
>On 20 May 00, at 2:21, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> > 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable quantities<BR>
> > of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
><BR>
>Not to mention free access to British technology - Penicillin and<BR>
>microwave radar in particular.<BR>
<BR>
And a fair bit of help with the Manhatten Project (I just saw in New <BR>
Scientist that the labs have all burned down?).<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention the input from Bletchley Park.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:15:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 4:46 AM, postmark.design@btinternet.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> btw,<BR>
> <BR>
> I get 1000 spaces.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's even better!<BR>
<BR>
> each face has 1+2+...+8 = 36 full hexes on a face * 20 faces = 720<BR>
> <BR>
> each edge has 9 half hexes * 3 edges * 20 faces / 2 (half haexes) = 270<BR>
> <BR>
> each vertex has 1 * 5/6 hex * 12 vertices = 10<BR>
<BR>
This is where our results diverge, I was not adjusting for the smaller area<BR>
covered by vertice spaces. You're right, this is the way to do it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:19:54 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to being on vacation for the last week, I've missed the main heat of<BR>
the pissing match between the US and everyone else, score and highlights at<BR>
11. While I don't want to get into individual nit-picking and all that,<BR>
there are a couple points I'd like to make. Any time debates like this come<BR>
up on the internet, specific points reign but the big picture is ignored and<BR>
the whole thing starts to sound like a debate over who has the biggest dick<BR>
(military historically speaking). As far as I'm concerned, if you have to<BR>
whip it out to prove whose is biggest, it ain't you.<BR>
You'd think that, similar to the cooperation shown by the Allies of WWII and<BR>
even WWI, that we'd also agree that the final outcome was the result of<BR>
cooperation between all parties and that no one's contribution was<BR>
insignificant. <BR>
Sure, the WWI American forces entered at the end of the war in time to shore<BR>
up Allied morale and lines, but American credit funded British and French<BR>
efforts (and that was, as I see it, brought the US into the fray, not merely<BR>
unrestricted Uboat operations... the fear of a lost investment). Maybe it<BR>
was the British blockade that sapped German energies enough to not want to<BR>
continue with the inclusion of more fresh Allied troops (but then maybe the<BR>
inhumanity of that blockade should have triggered US intervention on<BR>
Germany's side given the number of sympathetic German immigrants in the US).<BR>
But it's clear no single factor decided it all. They are all pieces of the<BR>
big puzzle leading up to Central Power defeat.<BR>
Same with WWII. If American/British bombers won the war, why did German<BR>
production go up every year? How could it? Or is it a piece of the puzzle?<BR>
Were American trucks and radios the only things that allowed the USSR to<BR>
break the Wehrmacht? If so, how does that explain the defenses of Moscow or<BR>
Stalingrad, both major turning points in Germany's Russian campaign that<BR>
were supported by Russian rail and not trucks? Turning to the Pacific. Did<BR>
the Marines single-handedly defeat the Japanese? Did the Navy? No. Both had<BR>
their necessary parts to play. And by the time the Marines were involved on<BR>
the offensive, the Japanese were given over to the defensive in the Pacific,<BR>
the Australians having stopped the Japanese advance down the Kokoda Trail<BR>
(is this the only example of the non-Chinese Allies actually defeating an<BR>
advancing Japanese infantry force?).<BR>
My point. All of these victories that the US and allies had a hand in were<BR>
collaborative efforts through and through. In particular places and times,<BR>
one countries intervention might have tipped the local scales but it takes a<BR>
lot of little scale tippings from everyone involved to determine the big<BR>
picture. And it's about time all the dick-swingers on this list (and several<BR>
other lists, the TML isn't alone in this... check out the ASL mailing list<BR>
once in a while) got that through their heads. <BR>
And now back to your regularly scheduled flame-war... whoops, I mean<BR>
historical debate.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn<BR>
bdunn@epicsystems.com<BR>
<BR>
"Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman<BR>
she meets, then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again."<BR>
- --alternative TV listing for "The Wizard of Oz"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:26:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
><BR>
>>I don't think he's serious.   Whether or not he is, I don't think he<BR>
should be taken seriously.  People who say things like that want attention<BR>
and we are giving him a lot of it.<BR>
>><BR>
>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
><BR>
I don't like being told that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm a<BR>
Shintoist, or because I'm bisexual, or because I probably wouldn't convert<BR>
to Christianity even if I did think the Bible was true, which I don't--<BR>
(nothing against anyone who does, mind you, my reasons are personal and<BR>
shouldn't be discussed on list.)<BR>
<BR>
But I have a rule.<BR>
<BR>
I only take people who say I am going to burn in hell, or their religion's<BR>
version of same, seriously if they can actually make it happen.  It's not<BR>
worth starting a flame war over.  Such statements shouldn't be dignified by<BR>
a response.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:41:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
> Peter, what program did you use to make your world map?<BR>
<BR>
I found a blank template on the net  and  coloured  it  in  using<BR>
Paint Shop Pro (based on a  1983  original  drawn  with  felt-tip<BR>
pen).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Primary is a small gas giant designated "Dectura". Primary<BR>
> > diameter 112,200 kilometers.<BR>
><BR>
> It's only a little bit smaller than Saturn. (?<>small?)<BR>
<BR>
CT Book 6 defines 'small' gas giants as having a radius  of  from<BR>
20,000 km to just under 60,000 km.  A 'large'  gas  giant  has  a<BR>
radius from 60,000 km to  120,000 km.  A  112,200 km  diameter  =<BR>
56,100 km radius ... thus it is classified as 'small'  (but  only<BR>
just).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Density 2.22 standard. Mass 0.19 standard<BR>
><BR>
> 'Standard' = earth density and masses?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  The stats box at the top of the first page uses the  format<BR>
of  the  "Pilot's  Guide"  supplement  by  Gamelords  (the  Keith<BR>
brothers.  I took their usage of 'standard'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> A density of ~11g/cc is better than that of metallic iron (?!)<BR>
> This doesn't sit well with the geology subsequently outlined,<BR>
> among other things.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps I shot myself in the foot here.  My  original  notes  had<BR>
that the planetary core (and mantle) had been compressed  by  the<BR>
acts of the Ancients.  The crust had then 'caved in' globally but<BR>
left voids into which the sea poured (forming  the  Undersea).  I<BR>
can live with an average density of 2.22 standard, but  maybe  in<BR>
trying to sound more plausable I introduced conflicts like ...<BR>
<BR>
> >  Much of the water was lost into space <snip><BR>
><BR>
> The atmosphere and gravity should largely prevent this, despite<BR>
> the very high average surface temperature (30.5 Celsius).<BR>
> Perhaps it could be lost into the mantle.<BR>
<BR>
Accepting the high density and removing the "water lost in space"<BR>
reference, what else doesn't fit?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > This, and the high level of volcanic activity, has resulted<BR>
> > in an atmospheric pressure at base level of 17% above<BR>
> > standard pressure! (Since there are no oceans or proper seas<BR>
> > the terms "base level" and "base altitude" are used in<BR>
> > preference to the term "sea level".)<BR>
><BR>
> Datum or reference level. The tidal effect of Dectura on Yori<BR>
> may account for some of the volcanic activity.<BR>
<BR>
I wanted a way of boosting atmospheric  pressure  'cos  otherwise<BR>
the partial pressure of oxygen was  too  low.  Even  so  I  still<BR>
doubled the oxygen from where it should have been for the  amount<BR>
of  surface  water.   The  compression  of  the  core  caused   a<BR>
reheating, exacerbated by Dectura's tidal forces.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Is the atmosphere 'bulked up' with carbon dioxide (from all the<BR>
> volcanoes)?<BR>
<BR>
No.  I fudged over this a bit ... you weren't supposed to notice!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > In the open desert during periastron noon day temperatures at <BR>
> > the equator reach 60C ... well above the human limit of<BR>
> > habitability. (Without artificial aids 60C is fatal.)<BR>
><BR>
> No. The U.S. Air Force exposed naked personnel to sustained<BR>
> dry temperatures of 204.4 C (when clothed, they were able to<BR>
> tolerate 260 C) in their physiology work for the space program<BR>
> in the 1960s.<BR>
> <BR>
> Saunas can run up to 140 C, and they're obviously humid and <BR>
> survivable.<BR>
<BR>
I got that from the DGP table  ...  reproduced  in  part  on  the<BR>
environmental  page.   Is   this   table   wrong   or   just   my<BR>
interpretation?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Yori's starport consists of a single downport called<BR>
> > "Geronemo Field".<BR>
><BR>
> 'Geronemo' = 'Geronimo', the famous Native American chief, or<BR>
> is it a classically derived compound (= 'old nobody'? <g>)<BR>
<BR>
It was supposed to be from the expression said when  jumping  out<BR>
of aeroplanes (etc) ... which  in  turn  comes  from  the  Native<BR>
American chief.  From now to 1105 they get one letter wrong.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:47:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney writes:<BR>
<BR>
> And a fair bit of help with the Manhatten Project (I just saw in New <BR>
> Scientist that the labs have all burned down?).<BR>
<BR>
Hm.  There was probably some information-sharing involved, but it was primarily an american project.  The major aid we got was stealing a wide variety of scientists who fled europe due to the war (which was quite useful, but by that argument the manhattan project was receiving aid from Germany).<BR>
<BR>
If you're referring to Los Alamos, it was uncomfortably near a large wildfire, but was not seriously damaged.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:54:41 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> And a fair bit of help with the Manhatten Project (I just saw in New<BR>
> Scientist that the labs have all burned down?).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Actually NS got it wrong. The fires came close to a couple of the labs,<BR>
and some non-research outbuildings burned, but the labs were spared.<BR>
Unfortunately almost all the buildings that burned were people's homes.<BR>
:-(<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:00:31 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WWI<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> that movie with Kirk Douglas as a French regimental<BR>
> commander that is accused of mutiny.<BR>
<BR>
PATHS OF GLORY<BR>
Directed By Stanley Kubrick, 1957<BR>
Great film.  Especially the cinematography.<BR>
Kirk plays Colonel Dax<BR>
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0050825<BR>
<BR>
Great line from the movie:<BR>
http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0050825<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
General Broulard: Colonel Dax! You will apologize at once or I shall<BR>
have you placed under arrest!<BR>
<BR>
Colonel Dax: I apologize... for not being entirely honest with you.<BR>
I apologize for not revealing my true feelings. I apologize, sir, for not<BR>
telling you sooner that you're a degenerate, sadistic old man. And you<BR>
can go to hell before I apologize to you now or ever again!<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Loren.<BR>
Broulard and Dax just made my Landgrab writeup for Garda-Vilis.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:59:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
At 09:50 AM 5/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
<BR>
A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."  Which is it?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:07:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:06 PM 5/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Unless established by treaty a military base is not a default<BR>
>extraterritorial area like an embassy. Hawaii was not a state. It was an<BR>
>attack on a  territorial possession, not American soil. Otherwise it<BR>
>wouldn't be the only sneak attack on American soil ever, as the Japanese<BR>
>also attacked the Philippines and other Pacific territories.<BR>
<BR>
The Philipines weren't a territory.  Hawaii was, and all of it's residents<BR>
were citizens.  The place had been a territory since 1899.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>And, as such as much a part of the US as Arizona is.<<BR>
><BR>
>No it isn't. Ask any Puerto Rican who supports independence.<BR>
<BR>
There are Texans who claim that they aren't part of the US.  Try asking the<BR>
people of Puerto Rico who voted to remain a territory.<BR>
<BR>
>No history I have ever read refers to Pearl Harbor as American soil. And<BR>
>while I am certainly patriotic and definitely imperialistic, trying to make<BR>
>Pearl Harbor into American soil does little but to destroy credibility. On<BR>
>December 7, 1941 it wasn't. That doesn't mean American citizens didn't die<BR>
>there, it doesn't mean it wasn't an act of war, it simply means it wasn't an<BR>
>attack on American soil. The only time American soil was invaded during WWII<BR>
>was in Alaska. Some few casualties were also cause on American soil by<BR>
>balloon bombs. And that is all.<BR>
<BR>
Alaska was also a territory at that time, so how was it that the Aleutians<BR>
were American soil while Hawaii wasn't?<BR>
<BR>
By the time of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii had been part of the US for over 40<BR>
years.  The islands were subject to the laws of the United States, and it's<BR>
inhabitants enjoyed all the privlidges thereof.  I used to live on Oahu,<BR>
trust me on this.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:09:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 8:59 AM, pnewman@gci.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Unlike Traveller hex maps this map is oriented with its<BR>
> hexes arranged 'point up' perhaps a similar arrangement<BR>
> might make an effective Traveller Map.<BR>
<BR>
Except for the astrogation maps, that is the way Traveller orients their<BR>
hexes. I used to always map the other way, but the climate system in GT: IF<BR>
sold me on the Traveller style. Even though I still can't figure out the<BR>
map. You can see the particular brain-fart I am having at:<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/hex1024.gif<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:34:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Client States (was: The Will to Win)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status <BR>
> over joining the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
If the client state's government has factions, they may  not  all<BR>
want union with the Imperium.  Consider the UK's current position<BR>
with regard to the EU:  There are trade advantages in joining the<BR>
EU (which the UK did) but a majority of the  population  want  to<BR>
remain independant and thus the treaty has  opt  out  clauses  on<BR>
various issues plus the UK didn't join the  single  currency  (or<BR>
not yet anyway).  In general the finance  and  business  factions<BR>
want union ... the media factions don't.  And thus the government<BR>
sits on the fence.<BR>
<BR>
PCs visiting a client state where  democratic  processes  are  at<BR>
work in some way and/or public opinion is important  may  witness<BR>
much heated  debate  over  the  pros  and  cons  of  joining  the<BR>
Imperium.  Political platforms will be polarised  and  the  press<BR>
will frequently print  completely  fabricated  stories  to  scare<BR>
people away from whichever position the press themselves oppose.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:27:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
    Something I have been thinking about for Traveller is an old idea.<BR>
Trading Coastals or Trading Cartels, or basicly you own a merchant ship &<BR>
you are part of a large co-op of other small ship owners.  This basicly<BR>
started when my F2F started a new campaign (using CT for BG, MT for the main<BR>
rules, & TNE for other rules), & I had 4 people playing Merchants & they all<BR>
got Free Traders, 2 Scouts both with Scoutships, & 1 Noble with a Yacht.  As<BR>
well as a Naval Captain who has a Patrol Cruiser.  How can you run a game<BR>
where you have 8 Ships in it?  Trade Cartel, was the thought that came back.<BR>
    Now how would this work?  Going from history, a ship owner would give up<BR>
half of his profits & at the end of the year get a share in the profits of<BR>
the Trading Coastals.  Now this may not sound like that good of a deal, in<BR>
that if a lot of ships fail to turn a profit, you will lose money because<BR>
other ship owners who are not good merchants will be able to take a share of<BR>
the profits from someone who is a better merchant.  But, it is.<BR>
<BR>
Advantages:<BR>
    1) Increased buying power.  If you look at the rules for buying in bulk,<BR>
the more you are able to buy, the more you save.  Makes sense, but when you<BR>
are a Merchant, the only way you can really make a good profit is<BR>
speculative trading.  So if you have 100 people pooling resources you should<BR>
beable to get a good deal.  In game terms I would give each roll on the cost<BR>
of buying speculative cargos a bonus depending upon the Broker your Trade<BR>
Cartel has on that world.<BR>
    Also, you would have a better chance to get more passengers to your<BR>
target world.  As well as being able to cut down on operation costs, i.e.<BR>
fuel costs 5,000 Cr/ton normally, you might be able to get it for 4,500<BR>
Cr/ton with a Cartel.<BR>
    2) Increased selling power.  If you can buy widgets for 100 Cr. less<BR>
than your rivals, you could sell them for 50 Cr. less than their price & get<BR>
a healthy profit.<BR>
    How this would work is that you would have a Broker in place at the<BR>
destination world & instead of paying him 5% commision per level of Broker<BR>
skill he has, you could have it set at 3% per level.  Basicly, I know I<BR>
would rather have a steady income over a long period of time, than making my<BR>
money in spurts.<BR>
    3) Increased protection.  While a single ship cannot afford to hire a<BR>
large company of mercs, a Trade Cartel could.  So if a planet illegally<BR>
messes with a Trade Cartel & it is big enough it could hire enough Mercs to<BR>
make that planet think twice about messing with it again.<BR>
    Also, the Trade Cartel could buy ship weaponary for its members at a<BR>
lower price.  I.e a Triple Beam Laser Turret costs 3,000,000 Cr., but a<BR>
Cartel member might be able to get it for 2,500,000 Cr.<BR>
    4) Warehousing.  On your major stops, you would have warehouses in<BR>
place, already, so you would not have to pay to store goods.  Therefore if<BR>
planet A, where you have a warehouse has a major surplus of wigits, you<BR>
could buy them all up & not have to worry about storing them.<BR>
    5) Insurance.  Even if you have had a bad year, you will still make some<BR>
money.<BR>
<BR>
Disadvantages.<BR>
    1) Rivals.  Megacorps might go after you, as you will provide an<BR>
alternative to them.<BR>
    2) Debts.  What if everyone losses money in one year?<BR>
<BR>
    Hopefully someone else can think of other Advantages & Disadvantages to<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:37:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Comet Defence Systems<BR>
<BR>
FWIW New Scientist has an interesting article on defence against Oort <BR>
Cloud sourced comet strikes.<BR>
<BR>
It may well be on their website...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:31:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am<BR>
going<BR>
>>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
><BR>
>A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."  Which is it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Father's side is Highland Scot, mother's side is Jewish.  I am both,<BR>
Doug.  My father meet my mother while he was in Isreal & she was visiting<BR>
the Holy Land.  I am a mutt, but I pay homage to both my father's & my<BR>
mother's side.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:38:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>I don't like being told that I'm going to burn in hell because I'm a<BR>
>Shintoist, or because I'm bisexual, or because I probably wouldn't convert<BR>
>to Christianity even if I did think the Bible was true, which I don't--<BR>
>(nothing against anyone who does, mind you, my reasons are personal and<BR>
>shouldn't be discussed on list.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Correct, & I don't like being told I am going to burn in hell because I<BR>
am a Highlander (blame my father for that), because I am Jewish (blame my<BR>
mother for that), because I am who I am (blame me for that), or because of<BR>
who I am.<BR>
    I don't like being told my wife is going to burn in hell because she is<BR>
bisexual, or because she who she is.  Of course I have been in fights over<BR>
my wife, & I will keep on getting into fights to protect her.<BR>
<BR>
>But I have a rule.<BR>
><BR>
>I only take people who say I am going to burn in hell, or their religion's<BR>
>version of same, seriously if they can actually make it happen.  It's not<BR>
>worth starting a flame war over.  Such statements shouldn't be dignified by<BR>
>a response.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True, but this person hit me at a bad time, I just found out that my<BR>
wife has a major brain tumor.  You know how I joke about her being an<BR>
airhead & forgetting stuff, she wasn't, it was the brain tumor.  And, the<BR>
sad part was that she started these jokes when she would forget where she<BR>
put her keys, her purse, her credit cards, etc, ect, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:11:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for this service, John. This will be a great resource<BR>
for anyone working on a TML landgrab (which I hope to do<BR>
once I find the time...)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:32:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping Standards<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 8:45 AM, pnewman@gci.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> It s a nice map and I like it _but_ several canonical Traveller<BR>
> World generation systems (WBH & WT) generate planetary weather<BR>
> and temperature ratings using a standard system. [For a planet<BR>
> of size Y row X will have a temperature modifier of -6.0 degrees].<BR>
> Because of this your map, with a nonstandard number of vertical<BR>
> rows is less useful to those of using such a system for planetary<BR>
> generation.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I am pretty much giving up on the GT map, as I have yet to figure it<BR>
out. I was unaware of a climate system for the DGP standard map I would like<BR>
to see such a system if anybody has one on hand.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:38:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/22/00 9:42 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Now if I can just get Stuart to answer my emails about souce code so I can<BR>
> start working on that Mac port.<BR>
<BR>
Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
would be screaming!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:08:37 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Linkoeping (Sweden) TML meeting<BR>
<BR>
A small TML meeting took place today here in Linkoeping. All two of us<BR>
present (me and Steve Charlton) enjoyed the meeting. We spent a few<BR>
hours eating fast food and talking about Traveller, the TML, differences<BR>
between American and Swedish culture... I think you recognize the topics<BR>
from somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
It's nice meeting people from the list in person. Kind of sad it is hard<BR>
to do a complete meeting...<BR>
<BR>
... or maybe not. I bet we would be quite a sight. Lots of odd people<BR>
arguing and shouting about things that no one else really cares about. <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:57:49 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
Moin Legate Legion,<BR>
<BR>
>     Something I have been thinking about for Traveller is an old idea.<BR>
> Trading Coastals or Trading Cartels, or basicly you own a merchant ship &<BR>
> you are part of a large co-op of other small ship owners.<BR>
<BR>
  my favourite 'Trade Cartel' is the Gushemege Merchantile Guild founded<BR>
  in -327 Imperial. It gone into underground becoming some sort of Mafia<BR>
  after the Gushemege Pacification Campain 600-800 Imperial. During the<BR>
  Rebellion the Guild became part of Strephons covert survey adding value<BR>
  informations to his intelligence branch. After the awaken the Guild<BR>
  aranged with sophont ships and equipment. In 1206 the Guild is able to<BR>
  smugle cheap TL13 anagathics to the Regency, while building starports<BR>
  on the Rim to follow the 'power of disaperance' movement, that was<BR>
  distributed as religous meme in the Rurevayn to prepare evacuation<BR>
  from the Empress Wave.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:50:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: There's no such thing as friendly fire (OT, long)  <BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon wrote:<BR>
>This paper lists a total of 5 amphibious assaults (in the sense that <BR>
>they were attacks on land targets launched from seagoing ships though <BR>
>not all involved ground troops). <BR>
<BR>
I got a chance to read your source, and I think we were both correct<BR>
to a point.  I was only counting amphibious operations that led to<BR>
ground troops coming in contact with the enemy, your source lists these<BR>
and other ops as well - air raids by aicraft and helicopter gunships,<BR>
planned ops that were aborted shortly before jump-off, feints by<BR>
ships, that kind of thing.  According to your source, only one action<BR>
led to people landing from the sea onto hostile territory - the Umm<BR>
Al Maradim Island raid.  The Naval History page also lists a raid<BR>
on another island that doesn't appear to be on your source's list.<BR>
<BR>
Seaborne forces were very busy, but none of them seemed to get into <BR>
quite the sticky situation conjured up by Mr. Legion.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:31:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
<BR>
I really think the issue has been swamped here - the original comment<BR>
I replied to was "...a browser application like [H&E] should not<BR>
require IE5..." I commented (*before* I had downloaded it) on Netscape<BR>
6 being useful for *browser* *applications* that might be written by<BR>
us for Traveller (and not necessarily H&E - since the one I am working<BR>
on _*is*_ a browser application).<BR>
<BR>
As it turns out, the original comment was actually wrong - H&E does<BR>
not (on my system anyway) require IE5 at all, just a recent DLL and<BR>
Twisted Pixel. It is not a browser application at all, it just needs<BR>
browser-associated Microsoft libraries to handle the HTML and<BR>
graphics, which is fine, since it is only written to run on Windows. I<BR>
don't think it is fair to criticise Stuart for choosing to write a<BR>
Microsoft package, or for any failings of Windows.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: 22 May 2000 04:48<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 [OT: Browser standards]<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
> All it should need is the ability to display text and graphics, and<BR>
> accept user input. Standard GUI stuff that should *not* be<BR>
> linking to any "internet" capability.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2478<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2479</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 22 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2479<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
Re: Alaska<BR>
Re: Alaska<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0<BR>
Re: Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
children using daddies comp.<BR>
Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
ObTrav: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:15:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
<BR>
Frank, this has got way beyond the software standards issue, and while<BR>
you and I might be happy talking Backus-Naur notations and competing<BR>
standards, I doubt it will be of interest to the group so we should<BR>
take it to email.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Frank G.<BR>
> Pitt<BR>
> Sent: 22 May 2000 03:22<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Browser standards for Traveller Software<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > > Nope, HTML was originally designed to be a simplified SGML<BR>
> > > designed for _structuring_ docuuments, not laying them out.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Not true, Frank, and you should know better.<BR>
><BR>
> It is true, and I do know better than most people.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:37:58 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/22/00 at 08:54 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:37 PM 5/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    You can be peaceful, nice folks & still be arrogant.  Just look at the<BR>
>>English.<BR>
<BR>
>You've never meet an Englishman in your life, have you.  Due to my<BR>
>father's influence, I have spent hours apologizing to ambulance<BR>
>attendants, ER room physicians, and surgeons for inconveniencing them.<BR>
<BR>
Guys can you think of *any* nationality that doesn't have some arrogant members?  And what one culture considers arrogance another might not.<BR>
<BR>
I'm *sure* some folks out there consider Americans arrogant. We aren't you know? We're kind, polite, and easy going to a fault...except for New Yorkers, of course. ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:48:43 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On 05/22/00 at 06:45 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So, IMO, arrogance, especially excessive levels is an unwanted thing.<BR>
<BR>
And is in the eye of the beholder, so natch, the Imperials might very well consider the Zhodani pride in their culture and its accomplishments arrogance. <BR>
<BR>
Don't you think the Zho *know* their culture is superior to the brutish lout Imperials and the choatic Vargr? Do you think they have any doubts that their way is the right way?  <BR>
<BR>
Now, that *will* be seen as arrogance by outsiders.<BR>
<BR>
And you can re: arrogant Americans, Englishmen, Frenchmen and even Canadians on this one too. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:03:21 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
On 05/22/00 at 11:59 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 09:50 AM 5/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
>>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
<BR>
>A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."  Which is it? -- <BR>
<BR>
Ah, now we know where the lost tribes of Israel went!!!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:10:07 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/22/00 at 07:45 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>It s a nice map and I like it _but_ several canonical Traveller World<BR>
>generation systems (WBH & WT) generate planetary weather and temperature<BR>
>ratings using a standard system. [For a planet of size Y row X will have<BR>
>a temperature modifier of -6.0 degrees]. Because of this your map, with a<BR>
>nonstandard number of vertical rows is less useful to those of using such<BR>
>a system for planetary generation.<BR>
<BR>
I have *never* been able to figure out these temperature charts!<BR>
<BR>
Here's an example from Heaven & Earth...<BR>
<BR>
>NAME: I Epsilon<BR>
>UWP: E764620-5<BR>
>PBG: 203<BR>
>TRADE CODES: Non-industrial, Poor<BR>
>STELLAR DETAILS: Primary Star: F8 V<BR>
<BR>
>I Epsilon(Unknown: Unknown/Unknown)<BR>
>E764620-5    X    Ni Po           203    F8 V  <BR>
>G: 0.0    Day: 13.713 hrs    Year: 692.337 days<BR>
>Atmo: 1.0    Natural Weather<BR>
>Temp: 41.724  (60 to 0)  (Season 69 to -42)<BR>
>Agriculture, Crystals; Agroproducts, Non-Metals; Durables; Recordings<BR>
>Progressive/Indifferent; Competitive/Neutral; Discordant/Friendly Legal<BR>
>0-06722, Tech 52-66566-4466-64-6<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I notice an error up there with the Gravity being 0.0 for this<BR>
world, but that shouldn't affect the temp calculations.<BR>
<BR>
The Base Temp is in C, right?  That's ~42 C, range of 60 to 0, with<BR>
a seasonal varience of 69 to -42 (or is that 129 to -42?)<BR>
<BR>
>TEMPERATURE WORKSHEET<BR>
>---------------------<BR>
>                      LATITUDE       BASE       <BR>
>HEX    BASE           TEMPERATURE    TEMPERATURE<BR>
>ROW    TEMPERATURE    EFFECTS        FOR HEX ROW<BR>
>1      42             18             60<BR>
>2      42             12             54<BR>
>3      42             6              48<BR>
>4      42             0              42<BR>
>5      42             -6             36<BR>
>6      42             -12            30<BR>
>7      42             -18            24<BR>
>8      42             -24            18<BR>
>9      42             -30            12<BR>
>10     42             -36            6<BR>
>11     42             -42            0<BR>
<BR>
Row 1 is at the equator, so the base temp for the equator is 60 C,<BR>
or 140 F..kind of hot..., and the base only falls to freezing at the<BR>
pole, right?<BR>
<BR>
                           AXIAL TILT                   HIGHEST  <BR>
>HEX  SUMMER  AXIAL TILT TEMP PLUS  DAYTIME  ORBIT ECC  TEMP FOR <BR>
>ROW  PLUS    FACTOR     IN SUMMER  PLUS     PLUS       HEX ROW  <BR>
>1    21      0.25       5          97       0.0        162 <BR>
>2    21      0.5        11         97       0.0        161 <BR>
>3    21      0.75       16         97       0.0        161 <BR>
>4    21      1          21         97       0.0        160 <BR>
>5    21      1          21         97       0.0        154 <BR>
>6    21      1          21         97       0.0        148 <BR>
>7    21      1          21         97       0.0        142 <BR>
>8    21      1          21         97       0.0        136 <BR>
>9    21      1          21         97       0.0        130 <BR>
>10   21      1          21         97       0.0        124 <BR>
>11   21      1          21         97       0.0        118<BR>
<BR>
But, now we get to the part that throws me.  Row 1 starts with 42,<BR>
then we add 21 for summer, another 5 because of ???, and still<BR>
another 97 because of a 14 hour day?  IAC, our warm world just<BR>
became boiling barren desert where all water boils off.  And what<BR>
are the average and low tempertures for a summer day, night?<BR>
<BR>
>                        AXIAL TILT                         LOWEST<BR>
>HEX  WINTER  AXIAL TILT  TEMP MINUS  NIGHTTIME  ORBIT ECC  TEMP FOR <BR>
>ROW  MINUS   FACTOR      IN WINTER   MINUS      MINUS      HEX ROW  <BR>
>1    -35     0.25        -9          -47        0.0        21 <BR>
>2    -35     0.5         -18         -47        0.0        24 <BR>
>3    -35     0.75        -26         -47        0.0        27 <BR>
>4    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        30 <BR>
>5    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        24 <BR>
>6    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        18 <BR>
>7    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        12 <BR>
>8    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        6 <BR>
>9    -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        0 <BR>
>10   -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        -6 <BR>
>11   -35     1           -35         -47        0.0        -12<BR>
<BR>
And in winter it's still pretty hot. <BR>
<BR>
Gees! I just don't like this. Is it clear as mud to anybody else?<BR>
<BR>
What *I'd* like isn't maximum and minimum tempertures, it's average<BR>
ones with ranges around the average.<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't something like *this* be more useful?<BR>
<BR>
           SUMMER TEMPERTURES **<BR>
 HEX     DAY TEMPS       NIGHT TEMPS      <BR>
 ROW    LOW AVG HIGH    LOW  AVG HIGH<BR>
   1     40  60  80      30   50  70<BR>
   2     37  57  77      27   47  67  <BR>
   3     34  54  74      24   44  64<BR>
   4     31  51  71      21   41  61<BR>
   5     28  48  68      18   38  58<BR>
   6     25  45  65      15   35  55<BR>
   7     22  42  62      12   32  52<BR>
   8     19  39  59       9   29  49<BR>
   9     16  36  56       6   26  46<BR>
  10     13  33  53       3   23  43<BR>
  11     10  30  50       0   20  40<BR>
<BR>
** totally made up numbers<BR>
<BR>
But wouldn't something like that be more *useful* if the Ref wants<BR>
to give a temperture to the players as they step off their ship on I<BR>
Epsilon?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:51:32 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Alaska<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-05-22 13:39:27 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<<  The only time American soil was invaded during WWII<BR>
 was in Alaska.  >><BR>
<BR>
Alaska was not a state in 1941.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:57:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alaska<BR>
<BR>
I think everything was a state of confusion in 1941<BR>
<BR>
>>> <GDWGAMES@aol.com> 05/22/00 03:51PM >>><BR>
In a message dated 00-05-22 13:39:27 EDT, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<<  The only time American soil was invaded during WWII<BR>
 was in Alaska.  >><BR>
<BR>
Alaska was not a state in 1941.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:11:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
>    Father's side is Highland Scot, mother's side is Jewish.  I am both,<BR>
>Doug.  My father meet my mother while he was in Isreal & she was visiting<BR>
>the Holy Land.  I am a mutt, but I pay homage to both my father's & my<BR>
>mother's side.<BR>
<BR>
So that you can post "I'm being oppressed!" flamebait in both Scots /and/ <BR>
Hebrew?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:15:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0<BR>
<BR>
 From what I've seen and heard of the program (screenshots, etc), I'm VERY <BR>
impressed.  Right now the only thing stopping me from running it is a <BR>
personal quirk:  I'm awaiting the promised next version with Twisted Pixel <BR>
included, so that I don't have to go to their website and give them my <BR>
personal data.<BR>
<BR>
Call me weird, but I prefer to be in as few software companies' <BR>
databases/spam-lists as possible.<BR>
<BR>
Bravo, Mr. Ferris.  Your unsung efforts are much appreciated by this lurker.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:30:16 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
Makes me feel better by writing<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I have *never* been able to figure out these temperature charts!<BR>
<BR>
Snip<BR>
> <BR>
> Wouldn't something like *this* be more useful?<BR>
> <BR>
>            SUMMER TEMPERTURES **<BR>
>  HEX     DAY TEMPS       NIGHT TEMPS      <BR>
>  ROW    LOW AVG HIGH    LOW  AVG HIGH<BR>
>    1     40  60  80      30   50  70<BR>
>    2     37  57  77      27   47  67  <BR>
>    3     34  54  74      24   44  64<BR>
>    4     31  51  71      21   41  61<BR>
>    5     28  48  68      18   38  58<BR>
>    6     25  45  65      15   35  55<BR>
>    7     22  42  62      12   32  52<BR>
>    8     19  39  59       9   29  49<BR>
>    9     16  36  56       6   26  46<BR>
>   10     13  33  53       3   23  43<BR>
>   11     10  30  50       0   20  40<BR>
> <BR>
> ** totally made up numbers<BR>
> <BR>
> But wouldn't something like that be more *useful* if the Ref wants<BR>
> to give a temperture to the players as they step off their ship on I<BR>
> Epsilon?<BR>
> <BR>
Yes it would, and H&E type programs should also check the temps before <BR>
generating maps, but thats another complaint, lets get this fixed if <BR>
we can.<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
> -- <BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:32:44 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, per 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' there was quite a bit of<BR>
data and personnel from britain involved with the Manhattan Project.<BR>
Klaus Fuchs, aside his communist involvement, was actually a British<BR>
subject and did make valuable, seminal contributions to the project.  He<BR>
was the one who came up with the design of the exposive 'lenses' and<BR>
other important parts of the 'fat man' implosion bomb.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> SD Mooney writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > And a fair bit of help with the Manhatten Project (I just saw in New<BR>
> > Scientist that the labs have all burned down?).<BR>
> <BR>
> Hm.  There was probably some information-sharing involved, but it was primarily an american project.  The major aid we got was stealing a wide variety of scientists who fled europe due to the war (which was quite useful, but by that argument the manhattan project was receiving aid from Germany).<BR>
> <BR>
> If you're referring to Los Alamos, it was uncomfortably near a large wildfire, but was not seriously damaged.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:56:42 GMT<BR>
From: "Erick ..." <siniypiva@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
>  Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he >will<BR>
>be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander <BR>
> >relatives<BR>
>are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't the nice <BR>
> >place,<BR>
>but the very bad place.<BR>
<BR>
   Umm, didn't this child already leave the list once Doug?<BR>
<BR>
- - Erick<BR>
<BR>
In the begining the universe was created.<BR>
This has made a lot of people angry,<BR>
And been widely regarded as a bad decision.<BR>
                        -Douglas Adams<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:08:41 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I am also required to point out that most of Maricopa Country is <BR>
> covered in concrete, and the chances of getting from one side of <BR>
> the Phoenix metro area in less than a day are pretty much nil, <BR>
<BR>
Who on Earth would want to do that?<BR>
<BR>
> thanks to all of the road construction paid for by Tucson tax <BR>
> dollars.<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  Thank you very much, your money is well spent.<BR>
But you guys got the Flandreau Planetarium and Kitt Peak.<BR>
We only got Grady Gammage and Taliesin West.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:17:21 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: ObTrav: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, this should be on-topic.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Steve Charlton sort-of wrote:<BR>
 ><BR>
 > I am also required to point out that most of Core and Vland is<BR>
 > steeped in painfully-over-bureaucratized worlds, and the chances <BR>
 > of getting from one side of the Central Imperium in less than a <BR>
 > year are pretty much nil,<BR>
<BR>
 Who on Earth would want to do that?<BR>
 <BR>
 > thanks to all of the infrastructure paid for by the tax<BR>
 > dollars of the Spinward Marches.<BR>
 <BR>
 Well, that's the way it works.  The colonies pay for the homeland,<BR>
 so to speak.<BR>
 <BR>
 Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
On 22 May 00, at 12:07, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
> the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
Having just got my grubby mitts on a copy of Tarsus (thanks Frankie), I <BR>
can give an answer to this: Because of Megacorporate investment that <BR>
will go away if they join. This could be because the client state is a <BR>
tax haven (though this would apply more to smaller investors) or <BR>
because the corporation is up to something that the Imperium wouldn't <BR>
like.<BR>
<BR>
Other reasons that spring to mind: They practise slavery, they want <BR>
more control over import/exports than member worlds are allowed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On 21 May 00, at 23:30, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     And, do you want to know something, I am still a Highlander & I will<BR>
>     be<BR>
> one until the day I die, as my sons will be Highlanders.<BR>
>     Of course to bring civilisation to Scotland, your people raped &<BR>
> murdered my people.  If your civilisation is built upon a foundation of<BR>
> rape & murder, how civilized are you?<BR>
<BR>
By that measure no culture/civilisation/nation/society in the modern <BR>
world would rate very highly. In fact very few from the time <BR>
agriculture was invented would rate well.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 21 May 00, at 20:59, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 20 May 00, at 2:21, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> 3. Lend-Lease carried no charge (and the US used considerable<BR>
> >> quantities of British equipment in Reverse Lend-Lease too).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Not to mention free access to British technology - Penicillin and <BR>
> > microwave radar in particular.<BR>
> <BR>
> Radar went both ways. The US finally had to send over a couple of<BR>
> people when the Brit radar experts were going *nuts* trying to<BR>
> duplicate the magnetron tubes the US had invented. <BR>
<BR>
Umm. The first working magnetrons were British, not US. However the US <BR>
produced a whole lot more of 'em. However the US did invent waveguides, <BR>
in WWII, and before they had a microwave emitter powerful enough to <BR>
make a working microwave radar (which needed the British magnetron).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
On 21 May 00, at 23:07, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     You can go through it all you want, but you are forgetting that only<BR>
> Canada was close enough to help England.  Australia & New Zealand would<BR>
> have had to fight through the Japanese, the Italians, & the Germans to<BR>
> help England.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps you'd like to explain this to all those New Zealanders and <BR>
Australians who died in Crete and North Africa and Italy and Western <BR>
Europe fighting for England. While they went through a fair number of <BR>
Germans and Italians while helping England they didn't go through the <BR>
Japanese, which were a seperate issue.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On 21 May 00, at 23:20, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Geez, are we getting PC on this ML?  Being arrogant is not a bad thing<BR>
> people, it is a good thing.  Arrogance is only pride in one's own self. <BR>
> The Zhodani do take pride in themselves, correct?<BR>
<BR>
My Pocket OED says that to be arrogant is to be "Overbearing; <BR>
presumptuous" and arrogance is to claim unduly a (thing or quality) to <BR>
oneself, whereas being proud (having pride in oneself) is having self-<BR>
respect and avoidance of unworthy actions.<BR>
<BR>
Under _Proud_ it implies that excessive pride is arrogance, but normal <BR>
pride in oneself is not. They are different in degree, if not in kind.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:39:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 21 May 00, at 17:30, Ewan Quibell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > Noted.  Associate: 2 years; Bachelor: 4 years; Master: 2 years<BR>
> > (cumulative with bachelor's); Doctor: 2 years (cumulative with<BR>
> > master's).  Note that, except for the associate degree, these correspond<BR>
> > with the college and graduate school terms in T4.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Does anyone have any ideas for Vilani (or other) equivalents?<BR>
> <BR>
> How about the English equivalents<BR>
> <BR>
> Bachelor 3 years<BR>
> Masters 1 year<BR>
> Doctorate 3 years (usually allowed another extra year to write up<BR>
> (therefore 4 years), and is not necessary to have a masters degree to do)<BR>
<BR>
New Zealand:<BR>
<BR>
Bachelor 3 years (starting at about 18 years old)<BR>
Honours  +1 year<BR>
Masters  +2 years (from Bachelor, not Honours. You can do Honours and <BR>
thrn one extra year for Masters)<BR>
PhD      +4 years, roughly (normally on top of Masters)<BR>
<BR>
Some Bachelor degrees take longer - Technology (4 years), Vet (5 years) <BR>
and Engineering (5 years, IIRC) being the main ones.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:42:35 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>Alaska was also a territory at that time, so how was it that the Aleutians<BR>
were American soil while Hawaii wasn't?<<BR>
and,<BR>
>Alaska was not a state in 1941.<<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Whoops, brain fart.<BR>
Scratch that part.<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
>The Philipines weren't a territory.  Hawaii was, and all of it's residents<BR>
were citizens.  The place had been a territory since 1899.<<BR>
<BR>
OK.<BR>
What were the Phillipines?<BR>
Back to the old books again...<BR>
<BR>
>There are Texans who claim that they aren't part of the US.  Try asking the<BR>
people of Puerto Rico who voted to remain a territory.<<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.<BR>
<BR>
>By the time of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii had been part of the US for over 40<BR>
years.  The islands were subject to the laws of the United States, and it's<BR>
inhabitants enjoyed all the privlidges thereof.  I used to live on Oahu,<BR>
trust me on this.<<BR>
<BR>
I do.<BR>
It still didn't qualify as U.S. soil.<BR>
And again, it doesn't mean I don't think it was an act of war or that we<BR>
shouldn't have gone off and put the stomp on the people who did it.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
the Imperium?<<BR>
<BR>
Several worlds petitioned for separation from the Imperium after the Second<BR>
and Third Frontier Wars. I think having the Zhodani right next door makes<BR>
them want enough protection to keep from being attacked during peace and<BR>
enough distance to keep from being attacked during war.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 03:01:19 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
Moin Karen and Michael Hughes,<BR>
<BR>
> For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
> has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
> each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
> yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants to<BR>
> the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
<BR>
  think big - buy a large country !<BR>
<BR>
  e.g the DDR (east german) was effectivly buyed by the BRD (west german).<BR>
<BR>
  The price was realy cheap : DM 100 + 1 Banana per person, for this price<BR>
  they sold their house, their work, their social system, ... Of course this<BR>
  low price was only possible because of prior propaganda war together with<BR>
  abuse of the terms of trade. I can think that US can do a similar coup de<BR>
  etat with Kuba, once Fidel dies. But I still hope for Kuba, that they wont<BR>
  give up their socialism, just to join the US nightmare of freedom or poverty.<BR>
<BR>
  A Montenegro was bought in Febuary. Germany sended 4 Transall aircrafts<BR>
  full of deutschmark, to buy that state. This money was used to pay officials<BR>
  wages. Now the national currency for Montenegro is DM and not Dinar.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2479<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2480<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
Re: University<BR>
Re: Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Landgrap from NR<BR>
RE: Truth drug<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
Re: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
22 years and counting...<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Computer personalities<BR>
T4: Missions of State<BR>
Robot construction request<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
Re: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
RE: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
Re: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:43:09 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 AM 5/22/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it<BR>
>should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid<BR>
>an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more<BR>
>expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given<BR>
>that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal. ><BR>
><BR>
>Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
>expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a<BR>
>suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
>theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
>you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
>and resource limits...if it takes a trained interrogator<BR>
>and two hours to interrogate someone with truth drug, then<BR>
>you have to pick eight or fewer targets per interrogator<BR>
>per day, find them, interrogate them, analyze what you<BR>
>learned, etc...<BR>
<BR>
I think everyone is missing the point. The soldiers firing into the crowd <BR>
are your suspects. If, under Truth Drug, they say they were fired on first, <BR>
then you go looking for other suspects.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:21:54 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: World Canon [long]<BR>
<BR>
At 05:03 PM 5/22/00 +0100, John G. Wood wrote:<BR>
>Foreven:<BR>
>=======<BR>
>1915 Gatina<BR>
>         JTAS 18 9-10 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>3020 Gwydion<BR>
>         JTAS 16 9-11 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>2518 Lorelei<BR>
>         JTAS 21 38-40 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>3116 Malefolge<BR>
>         JTAS 14 36-39 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>2211 Purfyr<BR>
>         JTAS 16 40-42, 45 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>3015 Pynchan<BR>
>         JTAS 7 36-37 or BJTAS 2 28-29 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>2214 Ranther<BR>
>         BJTAS 2 43-44 (Amber Zone)<BR>
>32?? Raschev<BR>
>         JTAS 17 40-43<BR>
>2017 Sturray<BR>
>         JTAS 22 37-38 (Amber Zone)<BR>
I like what you have done, but how did you come up with these being located <BR>
in Foreven sector.  Official Canon lists only 5 worlds for Foreven (Raschev <BR>
being one of them).  According to Imperial Lines #1 (and only), Foreven was <BR>
set aside as a GM's playground, with only hex locations, political borders <BR>
and the 5 worlds being drawn on the map.  The 5 worlds are:<BR>
<BR>
Alenzar    3229 C000414-9             513 Cs G0V      DA5 Horde<BR>
Raschev    3230 C8697C4-6             123 Cs M9V      DA5 Chamax Plague<BR>
Avalar     1636 A75599C-C  J Cp       904 Ac M0V      Capital of the Avalar <BR>
Consulate (Zhodani ally)<BR>
Zdovesil   1212 A65588A-9  Z Cp       103 Zh M9V M1D  Zhodani provincial <BR>
capital<BR>
Hollis     2523 A370642-C  A De Ni    303 Cs M3V      Important Imperial <BR>
client state<BR>
<BR>
All of the locations listed above do correspond to the hexes marked on the <BR>
map, but in the listed Amber Zones, I find no reference to Foreven (except <BR>
for Raschev).<BR>
<BR>
Again, I do like what you have done, I would just like to know if there was <BR>
some other Canon that overrode Imperial Lines.<BR>
<BR>
(btw, Imperial Lines came out when GDW started doing Challenge magazine, as <BR>
a strictly MT 'zine.  It was 8 pages, and AFAIK only lasted the one <BR>
issue.  I believe that GDW was publishing a similar 'zine for all their <BR>
house games; Twilight 2000, Space:1889 and MT (I think 2300AD had died by <BR>
this time).)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson                           nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.<BR>
Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair,<BR>
And all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually <BR>
deserve them?<BR>
So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the <BR>
universe.<BR>
                                      -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:34:02 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re: University<BR>
<BR>
How about the English equivalents<BR>
> <BR>
> Bachelor 3 years<BR>
> Masters 1 year<BR>
> Doctorate 3 years (usually allowed another extra year to write up<BR>
> (therefore 4 years), and is not necessary to have a masters degree to do)<BR>
<BR>
New Zealand:<BR>
<BR>
Bachelor 3 years (starting at about 18 years old)<BR>
Honours  +1 year<BR>
Masters  +2 years (from Bachelor, not Honours. You can do Honours and <BR>
thrn one extra year for Masters)<BR>
PhD      +4 years, roughly (normally on top of Masters)<BR>
<BR>
Some Bachelor degrees take longer - Technology (4 years), Vet (5 years) <BR>
and Engineering (5 years, IIRC) being the main ones.<BR>
<BR>
Theses figures are true unless you are focusing in on a specialized Masters<BR>
degree program.  IE:<BR>
Medicine, Law, and/or Theology-Divinty take much longer than the 1 year<BR>
listed for a Masters in Business or Education.  With the aforementioned<BR>
areas of specialized study, minimum time is 3-4 years for the Masters<BR>
degree.  The Doctorate will be another 3-5 depending on field of expertise.<BR>
I know, I have 19 + years in educational pursuits.  Ouch!<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:44:47 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Tempertures (was Mapping Standards)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/22/00 at 06:30 PM,  tim@premier.net said:<BR>
<BR>
>Makes me feel better by writing<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Tim. It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one who has trouble with those charts.<BR>
<BR>
And, I'm not banging H&E, it's great.  I just have trouble with the charts and think something easier for slow people like me would be even greater.<BR>
<BR>
>> I have *never* been able to figure out these temperature charts!<BR>
<BR>
>Snip<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Wouldn't something like *this* be more useful?<BR>
>> <BR>
>>            SUMMER TEMPERTURES **<BR>
>>  HEX     DAY TEMPS       NIGHT TEMPS      <BR>
>>  ROW    LOW AVG HIGH    LOW  AVG HIGH<BR>
>>    1     40  60  80      30   50  70<BR>
>>    2     37  57  77      27   47  67  <BR>
<snip><BR>
>>   10     13  33  53       3   23  43<BR>
>>   11     10  30  50       0   20  40<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ** totally made up numbers<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But wouldn't something like that be more *useful* if the Ref wants<BR>
>> to give a temperture to the players as they step off their ship on I<BR>
>> Epsilon?<BR>
<BR>
>Yes it would, and H&E type programs should also check the temps before <BR>
>generating maps, but thats another complaint, lets get this fixed if  we<BR>
>can.<BR>
<BR>
I know there were some problems with tempertures during beta, but I thought they were solved. I've been lurking over there for several months, couldn't do much testing until lately, though, because I could get the program to load...it was another dll I was missing. ;-\<BR>
<BR>
As for the tempertures, I'm still perplexed.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:50:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> Once they give up, they won't come back until this <BR>
><BR>
>Interesting. So a mercenary surrendering is some sort of<BR>
>legal contract. Maybe martial law applies to the soldier, <BR>
>but commercial law to themercenary?<BR>
<BR>
Well, both apply to the mercenary.  The mercenary is a<BR>
soldier for hire.  That implies that some sort of<BR>
commercial law governs the relationship between mercenary<BR>
and employer and that the mercenary, while on the job, is<BR>
subject to military law.  It makes for an interesting<BR>
tension, which we've seen throughout history:<BR>
<BR>
"Colonel, your regiment is to attack the enemy's supply<BR>
lines."<BR>
<BR>
"General, with all due respect, your government hasn't paid<BR>
my regiment this month, and pursuant to our contract we are<BR>
entitled to decline this operation."<BR>
<BR>
"Well, Colonel, if you are refusing my direct order I shall<BR>
have to place you under arrest for insubordination."<BR>
<BR>
"Very good, sir, but my regiment will still not fight until<BR>
it has been paid."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:07:06 PDT<BR>
From: "jim clem" <travmind@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
- ----Original Message Follows----<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:50:33 -0700<BR>
<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 >I don't think he's serious.   Whether or not he is, I don't think he <BR>
should<BR>
 >be taken seriously.  People who say things like that want attention and we<BR>
 >are giving him a lot of it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
=====================================<BR>
<BR>
Aye Lad.  I must say, as an Adventist, we Seventh Day types will probably be <BR>
outnumbered in Heaven.  It should be quite interesting.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Having been off and on the list for quite a while, is there<BR>
anything in canon, or in anyone's campaigns, about long running <BR>
religious/ethnic conflicts.  Always fodder for giving PCs a headache.<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:50:09 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Landgrap from NR<BR>
<BR>
NR asked me to post the URL to his world he wants to do for the <BR>
landgrap.  So here it is, its pretty good, covers alot of info, and is <BR>
done by the software we all love H&E.  Enjoy<BR>
<BR>
Tirem is its name<BR>
<BR>
 http://home.att.net/~nrunner/trav/tirem/<BR>
<BR>
You can email him at<BR>
<BR>
 merc4u2@usa.net<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:26:35 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Truth drug<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence<BR>
>> will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation<BR>
>> mind-raping Zho policies'?<BR>
...<BR>
>Not to mention side effects of this drug, and guaranteed there will be some.<BR>
>How will the public react when a few of those interrogated with the drug die<BR>
>from reactions, or are turned into vegetables or whatever. Especially if it<BR>
>turns out one of the victims was some innocent kid?<BR>
<BR>
  And every kid is an "innocent kid" to their friends and family...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:26:48 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
...<BR>
>    So would I, not only because it was an attack upon American Soil, but<BR>
>they used a nuclear weapon.<BR>
<BR>
  Am I delusional*, or did a _US_ _Marine_ just condemn the use of nuclear<BR>
weapons as an inherently evil act?<BR>
<BR>
  *OK, it's not either/or, but who on the TML would notice?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:37:31 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> claims:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm good at my job, but I'm not a living god of urban<BR>
>navigation.<BR>
<BR>
 Sure you are. You're just not THE living god of urban navigation. It's not a <BR>
position, it's a Department...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:09:26 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 22 May 00, at 12:07, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
> > the Imperium?<BR>
> <BR>
> Having just got my grubby mitts on a copy of Tarsus (thanks Frankie), I<BR>
> can give an answer to this: Because of Megacorporate investment that<BR>
> will go away if they join. This could be because the client state is a<BR>
> tax haven (though this would apply more to smaller investors) or<BR>
> because the corporation is up to something that the Imperium wouldn't<BR>
> like.<BR>
> <BR>
> Other reasons that spring to mind: They practise slavery, they want<BR>
> more control over import/exports than member worlds are allowed.<BR>
<BR>
Another reason that occurs to me is that the client state is a<BR>
multi-system polity, and wishes to remain so.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:33:35 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > On 22 May 00, at 12:07, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
> > > the Imperium?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Having just got my grubby mitts on a copy of Tarsus (thanks Frankie), I<BR>
> > can give an answer to this: Because of Megacorporate investment that<BR>
> > will go away if they join. This could be because the client state is a<BR>
> > tax haven (though this would apply more to smaller investors) or<BR>
> > because the corporation is up to something that the Imperium wouldn't<BR>
> > like.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Other reasons that spring to mind: They practise slavery, they want<BR>
> > more control over import/exports than member worlds are allowed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason that occurs to me is that the client state is a<BR>
> multi-system polity, and wishes to remain so.<BR>
> <BR>
I am working on one for the landgrap.  They are in the middle of a <BR>
bitter dispute between their home system and the Imperuim.  They <BR>
have not figured out which way to go.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:25:45 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: 22 years and counting...<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
Reading my OTU timeline chart, I suddenly realizedthat there are only 22<BR>
years left until the unification of Man! (Solomani, that is...)<BR>
<BR>
Man- that is hard to believe, considering recent traffic on this list... <BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:42:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
>>I'm good at my job, but I'm not a living god of urban<BR>
>>navigation.<BR>
><BR>
> Sure you are. You're just not THE living god of urban navigation. It's not<BR>
a<BR>
>position, it's a Department...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    *weg*  So does this mean I can continue to pray to Doug Berry for a safe<BR>
ride across Phoenix, or not?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:47:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
<BR>
>>    So would I, not only because it was an attack upon American Soil, but<BR>
>>they used a nuclear weapon.<BR>
><BR>
>  Am I delusional*, or did a _US_ _Marine_ just condemn the use of nuclear<BR>
>weapons as an inherently evil act?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, I did.  While I may not agree with nuclear weapons use by private<BR>
individuals, I do not think the use of nuclear weapons is an inherently evil<BR>
act.  I think if you have to use them, to defend your country, you have to<BR>
use them.  But, the use of nuclear weapons by a terrorist (which IIRC is<BR>
what this thread is about), is an inherently evil act, much like the use of<BR>
a car bomb by terrorists is an inherently evil act.<BR>
    Btw, one can be a Marine & not like the use or expansion of nuclear<BR>
weapons.  The two are not exclusive.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:24:24 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
Imagine if you will...the "smart house", available now. Near future is<BR>
voice activation/response aka the ST:TNG era ship's computers...at<BR>
higher TL's these would (probably?) have A.I. subroutines, the capacity<BR>
to learn the residents/owners likes/dislikes. Allowing for TL advance<BR>
these would be standard in house construction...the personalities would<BR>
tend to reflect the families. After several generations the house would<BR>
be part of the family..the same would probably be the same for ship<BR>
computers...Until the advent of Virus I suppose...<BR>
<BR>
The point of this post is...what would the house computer of a group<BR>
house...student accomodation...turn out like? In the house I'm in we<BR>
have had a dozen residents in the last 18 months...there are 6 people<BR>
living here now...<BR>
<BR>
Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:28:33 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: T4: Missions of State<BR>
<BR>
How much would these be worth? My local games store has three<BR>
copies...if anyone can't find it and wants it mail me..<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 05:53:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Robot construction request<BR>
<BR>
Any of your TMLers want to design me a Book 8 robot? I am lazy and my head<BR>
hurts when I do construction.<BR>
<BR>
I want to make a Bender from futurama. Human sized, tentacle arms, must be<BR>
strong, emotion sim a must. Oh year - has an alcohol fueled generator.<BR>
<BR>
Looking forward to it.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah baby yeah!<BR>
<BR>
M<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 06:00:41 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Karen and Michael Hughes,<BR>
><BR>
> > For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
> > has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
> > each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
> > yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants<BR>
to<BR>
> > the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
><BR>
>   think big - buy a large country !<BR>
><BR>
>   e.g the DDR (east german) was effectivly buyed by the BRD (west german).<BR>
><BR>
>   The price was realy cheap : DM 100 + 1 Banana per person, for this price<BR>
>   they sold their house, their work, their social system, ... Of course<BR>
this<BR>
>   low price was only possible because of prior propaganda war together<BR>
with<BR>
>   abuse of the terms of trade. I can think that US can do a similar coup<BR>
de<BR>
>   etat with Kuba, once Fidel dies. But I still hope for Kuba, that they<BR>
wont<BR>
>   give up their socialism, just to join the US nightmare of freedom or<BR>
poverty.<BR>
><BR>
>   A Montenegro was bought in Febuary. Germany sended 4 Transall aircrafts<BR>
>   full of deutschmark, to buy that state. This money was used to pay<BR>
officials<BR>
>   wages. Now the national currency for Montenegro is DM and not Dinar.<BR>
><BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
Jeez when you put it like that it looks like you can!<BR>
<BR>
What about merging countries. I think we'll see Australia and NZ a upsized<BR>
combo within 20 years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:07:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Imagine if you will...the "smart house", available now. Near future is<BR>
>voice activation/response aka the ST:TNG era ship's computers...at<BR>
>higher TL's these would (probably?) have A.I. subroutines, the capacity<BR>
>to learn the residents/owners likes/dislikes. Allowing for TL advance<BR>
>these would be standard in house construction...the personalities would<BR>
>tend to reflect the families. After several generations the house would<BR>
>be part of the family..the same would probably be the same for ship<BR>
>computers...Until the advent of Virus I suppose...<BR>
><BR>
>The point of this post is...what would the house computer of a group<BR>
>house...student accomodation...turn out like? In the house I'm in we<BR>
>have had a dozen residents in the last 18 months...there are 6 people<BR>
>living here now...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You mean like a Dorm?  I think it would be like a majority of its people<BR>
living there.<BR>
<BR>
>Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I think they are self-cleaning.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:17:35 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Moin Karen and Michael Hughes,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > For example, a small Pacific island nation, witha democratic government,<BR>
> > > has a population of about 18,000 and a pre capita GDP of $8,000.  Offer<BR>
> > > each person $20,000 to move away, bring in some supporters, and elect<BR>
> > > yourself dictator-for-life (after electing yourself and your assistants<BR>
> to<BR>
> > > the legislative bodies and amending the local constitution).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   think big - buy a large country !<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   e.g the DDR (east german) was effectivly buyed by the BRD (west german).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The price was realy cheap : DM 100 + 1 Banana per person, for this price<BR>
> >   they sold their house, their work, their social system, ... Of course<BR>
> this<BR>
> >   low price was only possible because of prior propaganda war together<BR>
> with<BR>
> >   abuse of the terms of trade. I can think that US can do a similar coup<BR>
> de<BR>
> >   etat with Kuba, once Fidel dies. But I still hope for Kuba, that they<BR>
> wont<BR>
> >   give up their socialism, just to join the US nightmare of freedom or<BR>
> poverty.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   A Montenegro was bought in Febuary. Germany sended 4 Transall aircrafts<BR>
> >   full of deutschmark, to buy that state. This money was used to pay<BR>
> officials<BR>
> >   wages. Now the national currency for Montenegro is DM and not Dinar.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Bye Michael<BR>
><BR>
> Jeez when you put it like that it looks like you can!<BR>
><BR>
> What about merging countries. I think we'll see Australia and NZ a upsized<BR>
> combo within 20 years.<BR>
<BR>
Never Happen.Otherwise it would have happened already.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:39:39 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> From: Robert Houghton<BR>
> > Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
><BR>
> I think they are self-cleaning.<BR>
<BR>
When I read this it immediately conjured up images of  the  self-<BR>
cleaning toilets in Lexx.  Yuck!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:43:04 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson wrote:<BR>
> I think everyone is missing the point. The soldiers firing into the crowd<BR>
> are your suspects. If, under Truth Drug, they say they were fired on first,<BR>
> then you go looking for other suspects.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that if you give the drug to a soldier who honestly<BR>
believes that they were firing in self defense, he will tell you this<BR>
was the case.<BR>
<BR>
In such a tense situation, if someone, somewhere, fires a gun, both<BR>
sides would probably interpret it as an attack upon themselves. Who<BR>
actually fired the first shot would be hard to find out.<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:08:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
On 23 May 00, at 6:00, Karen and Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What about merging countries. I think we'll see Australia and NZ a upsized<BR>
> combo within 20 years.<BR>
<BR>
Over our dead bodies!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:11:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
<BR>
On 23 May 00, at 0:09, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Another reason that occurs to me is that the client state is a<BR>
> multi-system polity, and wishes to remain so.<BR>
<BR>
This raises another poitn: It's canoniacal that one planet can be owned <BR>
by another within the 3I, so at what point does ownership of other <BR>
systems make the owner/owned group a multi-system polity, and thus not <BR>
allowable within the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2480<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2481<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
RE: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: Buying countries<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
State Terrorism [was: The Will to Win]<BR>
RE: ID4<BR>
RE: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: Legate Legion<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2480<BR>
Religious Conflicts In Traveller (Was RE: Legate Legion)<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:16:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
On 22 May 00, at 22:47, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Yes, I did.  While I may not agree with nuclear weapons use by private<BR>
> individuals, I do not think the use of nuclear weapons is an inherently<BR>
> evil act.  I think if you have to use them, to defend your country, you<BR>
> have to use them.  But, the use of nuclear weapons by a terrorist (which<BR>
> IIRC is what this thread is about), is an inherently evil act, much like<BR>
> the use of a car bomb by terrorists is an inherently evil act.<BR>
<BR>
Now all you need is an infalible method of telling a terroist from a <BR>
special forces soldier, from a freedom fighter, from a...<BR>
<BR>
It's all very well to condem the use a nukes (or any other weapon) by <BR>
terrorists and allow it to nations, but the line is more than a little <BR>
blurry. If a Palestinian blew away Israel's parliment with a nuke is he <BR>
a terrorist or a patriotic soldier doing what has to be done to save <BR>
his people from an enemy? Now what if it was an Israeli nuking Damascus <BR>
during a Syrian invasion?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:32:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
> Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> > From: Robert Houghton<BR>
> > > Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think they are self-cleaning.<BR>
> <BR>
> When I read this it immediately conjured up images of  the  self-<BR>
> cleaning toilets in Lexx.  Yuck!<BR>
<BR>
Sluurp, chomp, chomp. Buuurrpp!!<BR>
<BR>
"need more food..."<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:53:03 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Buying countries<BR>
<BR>
Moin Steven Hudson,<BR>
<BR>
>   Welcome back to the TML (I haven't seen a post from you in so long<BR>
> that I assume that you've been off-list?)<BR>
<BR>
  yes I was unsubscribed for nearly 3 years. My current plan for Traveller<BR>
  is to overhaul http://traveller.copyleft.de/, that currently only contain<BR>
  old stuff. Planed are a BR/BL simulation as a play by web and of course<BR>
  extending the 3rd Survey.<BR>
<BR>
> still in Hamburg, IIRC?<BR>
<BR>
  quite near - I'm living at germans class C starport, a town called<BR>
  Bremen that is known for Beck's Beer, DASA (oxygen torches, SpaceLab,<BR>
  Ariane, ...), Milka (chocolate) and many more things.<BR>
<BR>
  BTW: is the TNE/RCES list still active, and if yes, whats the current<BR>
  address for subscribing.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 04:33:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
>     Yes, I did.  While I may not agree with nuclear weapons use by private<BR>
> individuals, I do not think the use of nuclear weapons is an inherently<BR>
> evil act.  I think if you have to use them, to defend your country, you<BR>
> have to use them.  But, the use of nuclear weapons by a terrorist (which<BR>
> IIRC is what this thread is about), is an inherently evil act, much like<BR>
> the use of a car bomb by terrorists is an inherently evil act.<BR>
<BR>
<< Now all you need is an infalible method of telling a terroist from a<BR>
special forces soldier, from a freedom fighter, from a... >><BR>
<BR>
    Correct, and I have to agree with you.<BR>
<BR>
<< It's all very well to condem the use a nukes (or any other weapon) by<BR>
terrorists and allow it to nations, but the line is more than a little<BR>
blurry. If a Palestinian blew away Israel's parliment with a nuke is he a<BR>
terrorist or a patriotic soldier doing what has to be done to save his<BR>
people from an enemy? Now what if it was an Israeli nuking Damascus during a<BR>
Syrian invasion? >><BR>
<BR>
    I would have to say, that a lone Palestinian would be a terrorist, but<BR>
if it was a mission, then he is a patriotic soldier, as for an Israeli doing<BR>
it, again depends.<BR>
    To be honest with you, the facts are not cut & dried, like you give them<BR>
to me, right now.  I would have to say, that the use of nuclear weapons is a<BR>
bad thing, & should not be done at all, but there are execptions to this<BR>
rule.  For example, if the 1I attacked, I would have to say, nuke them.<BR>
Otherwise, leave them where they belong, unused, like Chemical & Biological<BR>
Weapons, safe & protected, but not used.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:30:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote :-<BR>
> My  original  notes  had<BR>
> that the planetary core (and mantle) had been compressed  by  the<BR>
> acts of the Ancients.  The crust had then 'caved in' globally but<BR>
> left voids into which the sea poured (forming  the  Undersea).<BR>
Yes, I remember those. You posted them to the TML sometime early last<BR>
year, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
> I can live with an average density of 2.22 standard, but  maybe  in<BR>
> trying to sound more plausable I introduced conflicts like ...<BR>
It's just that it's a really large average density. If there is a<BR>
silicate and water layer (density 1-5g/cc) overlying the core, the<BR>
core must have a density of ~17-18g/cc. Superdense? Platinum group<BR>
metals? Actinides?<BR>
<BR>
The geology of Yori would be quite interesting - non-existent with a<BR>
superdense core, ?magnetic field effects with platinum group metals,<BR>
energetic++ with a high-actinide core (a giant fission reactor!).<BR>
<BR>
> (Without artificial aids 60C is fatal.)<BR>
> I got that from the DGP table  ...  reproduced  in  part  on  the<BR>
> environmental  page.   Is   this   table   wrong   or   just   my<BR>
> interpretation?<BR>
The table is right in that most proteins will start to denature* at<BR>
this temperature. Living things will adapt - burrowing, dormancy,<BR>
sweating, other behavioural modifications, so they won't spend enough<BR>
time in the heat to get permanently damaged.<BR>
<BR>
So colonists may have a hard time in such an environment because there<BR>
isn't much in the way of local life to sustain them.<BR>
<BR>
The statement that 60 degrees C is 'fatal without artificial aids'<BR>
doesn't really wash, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
* denaturation refers to an irreversible change in the conformation of a<BR>
protein e.g. the difference between raw and cooked egg white.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:51:52 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: State Terrorism [was: The Will to Win]<BR>
<BR>
Moin Legate Legion,<BR>
<BR>
> << Now all you need is an infalible method of telling a terroist from a<BR>
> special forces soldier, from a freedom fighter, from a... >><BR>
> <BR>
>     Correct, and I have to agree with you.<BR>
<BR>
  I think its impossible to distinct between terrorist and special forces<BR>
  in general and difficult in individual cases. Its known that mostly any<BR>
  state has its department practicing 'state terrorism'.<BR>
<BR>
  To talk about Germany : Germany had a so called Red Army Fraction (RAF).<BR>
  They moved to eastern germany in 1986, start a living as normal people<BR>
  and stoped their 'war'. This was arranged between BND and STASI<BR>
  (intelligence brances of west and east germany). Interesting, terrorism<BR>
  from RAF continued. Well known victims are Alfred Herrhausen (Deutsche<BR>
  Bank) and Rohwedder (Treuhand). Each of those 3rd generation RAF actions,<BR>
  shared a new kind of professionality, impossible for hobby terrorist like<BR>
  me and you. Its quite clear that intelligence is using RAF as a trademark<BR>
  for their own actions. Even before 1986, RAF terrorism was supported by<BR>
  states. So its well known that Italian Propaganda-Due (P2) financed the<BR>
  Mogadischu skyjackers with arms, money, and specialists advice.<BR>
<BR>
  The US has similar things, read "Pirates and Emperors" by Noam Chomsky.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav, read "Gushemege CSB Activities" - HIWG Doc No. SW04 by Andy Slack.<BR>
<BR>
#------------------------------------------------------------------------------#<BR>
 Gushemege CSB Activities                                            Andy Slack<BR>
<BR>
HIWG Doc No. SW04<BR>
Date: <BR>
<BR>
ABSTRACT<BR>
      An overview of the activities of Strephon's Agency in the fields of<BR>
      disinformation, memetic engineering, terrorism, and commando operations.<BR>
<BR>
OVERVIEW<BR>
      The Covert Survey Bureau (CSB) is the logical choice for Strephon's<BR>
secret agency. There are also a number of interesting anomalies in Gushemege<BR>
sector. This document discusses what the Gushemege CSB is up to, under these<BR>
main headings: Disinformation, Memetics, Terrorism, and Commando Operations.<BR>
<BR>
STRATEGIC GOALS<BR>
      Strephon's Worlds are outnumbered absolutely in terms of the fighting<BR>
ships and men available to the other factions. In any given battle, however,<BR>
what matters is not how troops the enemy has, but how many he can bring to<BR>
bear. The CSB aims to reduce the odds against Strephon's forces in three main<BR>
ways:<BR>
    - by tying down as many opposing troops and ships as possible, rendering<BR>
      them unavailable for combat.<BR>
    - by rallying the undecided populations behind Strephon, thus increasing<BR>
      his forces.<BR>
    - by attacking the enemy's command structure and communications routes so<BR>
      that he cannot direct his forces to the right place at the right time.<BR>
<BR>
      The CSB's top administrators are wise enough to realize that this<BR>
strategy only delays the inevitable fall of Strephon's Worlds. The rebellion<BR>
is bound to settle down to a war of attrition, and in that kind of conflict<BR>
the faction with the most troops will eventually win. Strephon and the CSB<BR>
hope that the major factions will cripple each other before the attritional<BR>
phase sets in, or that they can rally enough high-population worlds to become<BR>
the largest faction.<BR>
<BR>
      In the meantime, an interesting scenario might be made out of a senior<BR>
CSB agent employing the PCs to carry out missions for him - not for Strephon's<BR>
cause, but to build up a nest egg he can retire on when Strephon's Worlds<BR>
collapse.<BR>
<BR>
DISINFORMATION<BR>
 	Or, the time-honored art of telling lies about your opponents. Because of the slow speed at which news travels and the general chaos of the Rebellion, it isdifficult for most people to find out what is really going on. They will<BR>
therefore tend to believe nothing at all or whoever shouts the loudest.<BR>
      Affeldt suggested lowering enemy morale by tampering with the troops'<BR>
mail. Strephon's agency takes this a step further by tampering with the<BR>
faction's mail -- introducing false information into their rival's xboat<BR>
networks. This is done in a variety of ways:<BR>
      First, by introducing Gushemege xboats into the networks of rival<BR>
factions, carrying fake news. For example, reporting a battle or a planet lost<BR>
when it was won, or faked footage of the rival faction's leader being<BR>
assassinated. This is a dangerous mission for the pilot, but allows maximum<BR>
consistency between the messages aboard, making the news more credible.<BR>
      Second, agents in rival faction's territory invent false messages and<BR>
introduce them into the local xboat network. This can mislead the readers.<BR>
More importantly, it lowers the credibility of the other messages delivered.<BR>
If one report says the battle was won and another says it was lost, which do<BR>
you believe? This slows the enemy's response to information as he must verify<BR>
its truthfulness before acting, possibly by sending another ship to check what<BR>
really happened.<BR>
      Third, destroying data banks, xboats, and couriers wherever possible.<BR>
This slows the enemy response, because he doesn't know what is going on. He<BR>
must either send more ships to find out, or have fighting ships escort<BR>
couriers. (The latter will slow down couriers, because warships generally have<BR>
lower jump numbers.)<BR>
      In all cases, due to the excellent quality of Gushemege simulations,<BR>
based on Lancian technology, the false data introduced by the CSB are not<BR>
obvious forgeries.<BR>
      In a more adventurous vein, carefully doctored news might persuade a<BR>
low-technology, high-population world that it was cut-off, surrounded,<BR>
abandoned, and soon to be smashed by Strephon's fleets. Silver balloons<BR>
masquerading as orbiting battleships would help. A forceful landing by a<BR>
gunboat or two carrying a CSB agent dressed as a Colonel or Fleet Admiral with<BR>
a request that the world surrender could gain the world's surrender, if the<BR>
agents were good enough actors.<BR>
<BR>
MEMETICS<BR>
      Pre-jump-drive experiments on Terra showed that certain ideas are<BR>
infectious, spreading among persons like viruses and taking over victims'<BR>
belief systems. These ideas are known as memes, and the techniques of studying<BR>
and creating them are collectively called memetics. Where the vectors<BR>
(transmission agent) for a physical disease include vermin, insects, and<BR>
carriers of the disease, the vectors for a meme include media broadcasts and<BR>
whispered conversations.<BR>
      In memetic theory, social movements are side effects of the spread of<BR>
specific memes. It follows that a group capable of creating and spreading a<BR>
suitable meme can produce social movements to order.<BR>
      Much CSB research has been targeted on projects to create new religions,<BR>
philosophies, and codes of behavior which will dispose those accepting the<BR>
artificial ideals to support the CSB's aim. These projects usually conduct<BR>
their experiments on interdicted worlds with low tech levels, to minimize the<BR>
disturbing affects of outside interference. The group of four type-X starports<BR>
close together in subsector L house the major projects, close together for<BR>
ease of comparison.<BR>
      Creating a suitable meme requires, first, that CSB agents thoroughly<BR>
study which memes are already active in the target culture. The successful<BR>
pseudo-religion will make extensive use of existing memes to help it take root<BR>
in the target population.<BR>
      Second, the meme must be codified in a written (or other recorded) form.<BR>
As self-replicating information patterns, memes are subject to mutation and<BR>
evolution like physical genes, and standardizing the meme helps to limit<BR>
mutation as the number of people infected grows. The CSB agent in place<BR>
normally prepares and distributes the standard "Bible" for the new meme.<BR>
      Third, the CSB encourages those infected with the meme to isolate<BR>
themselves from the rest of the population, to minimize contamination from<BR>
competing memes, and to protect the believers. The local government and/or<BR>
religion will undoubtedly attempt suppression.<BR>
      The most successful memes - from the CSB's standpoint - are those<BR>
overriding a sophont's natural desire for genetic and personal survival. This<BR>
sort of meme can induce untrained civilians to drive grav sleds full of<BR>
explosives into Lucan's or Dulinor's local headquarters, or attack troops in<BR>
battledress with sticks and stones. The sort of fanaticism needed can only be<BR>
generated by pseudo-religious memes, hence the CSB's interest in creating<BR>
artificial religions, and even then must be continually fanned by agents<BR>
onworld.<BR>
      A possible scenario is that the PCs are forced to deal with a local<BR>
religious cult inflamed to acts of terrorism by a CSB agent. Perhaps one of<BR>
the party's favorite NPCs is kidnapped and brainwashed by the cult.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
TERRORISM<BR>
      Even in the former heartland of the Imperium there are dissidents -<BR>
corsairs, terrorists, criminal elements, and so on - who would take up arms<BR>
against the government. The CSB's policy is to contact those groups in their<BR>
rivals' territories, and give them arms, money, and specialists advice. The<BR>
CSB is not concerned with what these groups stand for; all that matters is<BR>
that they oppose their government and are prepared to take action. Of course,<BR>
should such action be against the CSB's interests, their supplies of guns and<BR>
cash dry up.<BR>
      This policy will give Strephon major problems if he won, because he will<BR>
then have well-equipped, trained terrorist groups entrenched in his territory.<BR>
Desperate and vastly outnumbered, however, he is prepared to take that risk<BR>
and hope the CSB will have an answer for that problem when it arises.<BR>
Strephon's main concern so far has been for the innocent victims of terrorism.<BR>
The CSB argues that innocent victims are essential, as killing the spouses and<BR>
children of rival factions' troops is not only easier than killing the troops,<BR>
it has a greater effect on their morale.<BR>
      The CSB recognizes that it would weaken Strephon's bid for the throne to<BR>
be associated with this activity. They are careful to lay blame either on the<BR>
terrorists themselves or on another faction. Atrocities committed in Lucan's<BR>
domain will be blamed on Dulinor, and vice versa.<BR>
      False Flag Recruiting: The CSB studies intended recipient organizations,<BR>
and then poses as members of that faction. The Solomani Party is the main<BR>
recipient of CSB support within the volume of space controlled by the Ziru<BR>
Sirka. Like most other recipients, it is ignorant of the true source of<BR>
funding. It might reject the money and advice if it knew where they came from.<BR>
      Within Lucan's Imperium, the Scarlet Claw Society is a group of Aslan<BR>
terrorists which the CSB funds. The agents pose as members of Dulinor's<BR>
agency, and so the terrorists believe themselves to be fighting for Dulinor<BR>
instead of helping Strephon.<BR>
      Affeldt suggested arming PCs and turning them loose to create mayhem in<BR>
rivals' territory. This is as good a campaign setup as any sponsored by CSB.<BR>
      Disease: Another common ploy is for CSB agents posing as customs<BR>
inspectors to board independent merchantmen just before they leave Strephon's<BR>
Worlds for enemy territory. While aboard they surreptitiously infect the ship<BR>
with contagious disease germs. The intent is to spread the disease into<BR>
starports within a rival faction's turf.<BR>
      The plagues used will be crippling, but not actually lethal. A dead<BR>
enemy who only needs to be buried has less effect on opponents' morale and<BR>
resources than a horribly diseased one who must be cared for constantly.<BR>
      A possible scenario is to infect the PC's ship with a virulent plague in<BR>
this way, perhaps while dropping off a passenger who is really a CSB agent.<BR>
The PCs will become ill while being hunted as saboteurs or plague carriers.<BR>
<BR>
COMMANDO OPERATIONS<BR>
      The CSB maintains a number of highly-respected commando teams, which are<BR>
trained and equipped at a level rivalling the special forces units of the<BR>
other major services. Like the rest of the CSB's operatives, these have a<BR>
reputation for the bizarre, earned mainly from their use of trained animals,<BR>
gadgetry, and deception.<BR>
      Trained pouncers have been fitted with time-fused explosive packs and<BR>
encouraged to build nests inside enemy starships. This has had mixed success,<BR>
with some targets destroyed and other attempts destroying neutral or merchant<BR>
tonnage instead. The CSB argues that even failures help their cause, as they<BR>
lower enemy morale, discourage neutral merchants from visiting enemy ports,<BR>
and tie down forces on security duties.<BR>
      Small flying animals that nest in the eaves of buildings have been<BR>
captured and fitted with incendiary devices in attempts to burn down enemy<BR>
cities. These missions have uniformly failed so far, but all add to the fears<BR>
and worries of those opposing Strephon.<BR>
      During the early days of the Rebellion, attempts were made to peddle<BR>
drugs to troops fighting for other factions. These were discontinued when<BR>
Strephon's troops proved equally vulnerable -- in many cases they received the<BR>
drugs intended for Lucan's forces.<BR>
      CSB commando units often travel incognito aboard free traders owned and<BR>
operated by the CSB. A possible scenario is for the CSB to hold the lien on<BR>
the PC's ship through a number of dummy companies. A CSB commando team in<BR>
disguise charters the ship, and the PCs are blamed for the atrocities the<BR>
commit at one port of call.<BR>
      Once on-planet, CSB teams are supported by sleeper agents scattered<BR>
throughout the sector years ago to support anti-terrorist and anti-piracy<BR>
operations. The typical sleeper believes he works for someone else (whoever<BR>
his recruited thought he was likely to work for), and is exempt from draft by<BR>
virtue of ill health, age, or professional status.<BR>
      The sleeper's task is to provide a safe house where the team can rest,<BR>
avoid searches, and prepare for missions. Stocks of food and medicine, and<BR>
perhaps a vehicle, are also needed. These hideouts take many forms -- a<BR>
starport restaurant franchise, a cargo container ostensibly storing furniture<BR>
for someone off-planet on business (and stacked amid many genuine ones), and<BR>
unproductive mine on a nearly-abandoned asteroid, a lighthouse or emergency<BR>
shelter, and so on.<BR>
      The missions undertaken by a commando unit are often blamed on<BR>
terrorists, and are broadly similar to terrorist operations. What<BR>
distinguishes them is their precise timing and targeting, as opposed to the<BR>
apparently random and pointless violence of the terrorist. These units are<BR>
specially tasked with eliminating key opponents by killing, kidnapping, or<BR>
discrediting them. To gain the proper perspective for how the gadget-oriented<BR>
CSB tackles this sort of task, watch reruns of the "Mission: Impossible" show.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2:14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:46:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: ID4<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 21 May 2000 3:08 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: ID4<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 00-05-18 21:33:56 EDT, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << I had no problems with ID4...American Escapism..."Though we<BR>
> are a decadant<BR>
>  society we can still do great things if we have to"...funniest<BR>
> scene, the<BR>
> shot<BR>
>  of a ship crashed behind the Sydney Harbour Bridge...I live in<BR>
> Canberra, the<BR>
>  _real_ capital and found it hilarious.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> I assume the director did that because there is no landmark in<BR>
> Canberra that<BR>
> the US audience would recognize . . .<BR>
><BR>
> When I saw the film, I noticed that and figured the saucer had destroyed<BR>
> Canberra already and moved on to Sydney before the RAAF shot it down<BR>
> (Washington DC was toast by the time the saucers were downed, remember).<BR>
><BR>
Actually its more likely the aliens could not find Canberra, after all most<BR>
of our politicians don't seem to know where it is!<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:24:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Yori, a TML Landgrab (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
> > I can live with an average density of 2.22 standard, but  maybe  in<BR>
> > trying to sound more plausable I introduced conflicts like ...<BR>
> It's just that it's a really large average density. If there is a<BR>
> silicate and water layer (density 1-5g/cc) overlying the core, the<BR>
> core must have a density of ~17-18g/cc. Superdense? Platinum group<BR>
> metals? Actinides?<BR>
> <BR>
> The geology of Yori would be quite interesting - non-existent with a<BR>
> superdense core, ?magnetic field effects with platinum group metals,<BR>
> energetic++ with a high-actinide core (a giant fission reactor!).<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking that the core could have gone *part* of the way to<BR>
forming neutronium as a result  of  Ancient  activity.  Prior  to<BR>
this Yori would have had a more  conventional  geology  ...  what<BR>
there is now are the 'ruins' of a planet.  Or is this  completely<BR>
out-to-lunch?<BR>
<BR>
Rats!   I  think  I'm  going  to  have  to  recalculate  all  the<BR>
environmental stuff.  Changing the density will mean changing the<BR>
gravity, which means changing the air pressure ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > (Without artificial aids 60C is fatal.)<BR>
> > I got that from the DGP table  ...  reproduced  in  part  on  the<BR>
> > environmental  page.   Is   this   table   wrong   or   just   my<BR>
> > interpretation?<BR>
> The table is right in that most proteins will start to denature* at<BR>
> this temperature. Living things will adapt - burrowing, dormancy,<BR>
> sweating, other behavioural modifications, so they won't spend enough<BR>
> time in the heat to get permanently damaged.<BR>
> <BR>
> So colonists may have a hard time in such an environment because there<BR>
> isn't much in the way of local life to sustain them.<BR>
> <BR>
> The statement that 60 degrees C is 'fatal without artificial aids'<BR>
> doesn't really wash, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'll cut this line in the next update.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 05:28:41 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
<BR>
> At 10:22 AM 5/22/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> ><Can't you just use Truth drug (CT) it's only TTL 9 and so it<BR>
> >should be available. It is Cr 5,000 a dose but if it can avoid<BR>
> >an expensive trial, a more expensive riot, or an even more<BR>
> >expensive imposition of Martial Law its well worth it. Given<BR>
> >that Garda-Villis is LL 8 I suspect that Truth Drug is legal. ><BR>
<BR>
> >Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
> >expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a<BR>
> >suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
> >theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
> >you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
> >and resource limits...if it takes a trained interrogator<BR>
> >and two hours to interrogate someone with truth drug, then<BR>
> >you have to pick eight or fewer targets per interrogator<BR>
> >per day, find them, interrogate them, analyze what you<BR>
> >learned, etc...<BR>
> <BR>
> I think everyone is missing the point. The soldiers firing into the crowd<BR>
> are your suspects. If, under Truth Drug, they say they were fired on first,<BR>
> then you go looking for other suspects.<BR>
<BR>
That is exactly the way of using it I was suggesting. I don't<BR>
think that at LL 8 soldiers would usually have the right to refuse <BR>
to take drugs (especially drugs for which Traveller canon does<BR>
not establish any risk whatsoever of failure or side effects).<BR>
I would suspect that at LL 8 private citizens might or might<BR>
not have a right to refuse to take truth drug but if they did <BR>
refuse to take Truth Drug (which canonically always works & never <BR>
has any side effects) that this refusal could and would be entered<BR>
into evidence as proof of their guilt. (Moreover at LL 8 it seems<BR>
more likely that people would be 'Presumed Guilty' rather than<BR>
'Presumed Innocent' or 'No Presumption'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:43:57 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
<BR>
>>...marine regiments in the _5th Frontier War_ game are no tougher than any<BR>
>>other TL-15 regiment of the same size (and they're not armored calvary,<BR>
>>BTW). Indeed of the 8 marine regiments in the countermix, only 2 are elite.<BR>
> <BR>
>Hans has it occurred to you that a "regiment" of Marines in<BR>
>Battledress may have _fewer_ people in it than other regiments.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that is possible, although the transport rules in _FFW_ certainly<BR>
does not suggest anything like that. However, regardless of size, the marine<BR>
regiments _are not armored_. I would have thought that troops in Battle Dress<BR>
would count as armored, wouldn't you?<BR>
<BR>
>This would let the Marines to be tougher, sophont per sophont, yet<BR>
>have the same mass combat strength as other TL-15 regiments.<BR>
 <BR>
Even if the effect is achieved with less, a marine regiment is no tougher<BR>
than any other TL 15 regiment and less so than some. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:41:39 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair<BR>
> <BR>
> >    Father's side is Highland Scot, mother's side is Jewish. <BR>
>  I am both,<BR>
> >Doug.  My father meet my mother while he was in Isreal & she <BR>
> was visiting<BR>
> >the Holy Land.  I am a mutt, but I pay homage to both my <BR>
> father's & my<BR>
> >mother's side.<BR>
> <BR>
> So that you can post "I'm being oppressed!" flamebait in both <BR>
> Scots /and/ Hebrew?<BR>
<BR>
Whoa. I just got a mental picture of an elderly orthodox rabbi<BR>
in a black kilt and playing bagpipes.<BR>
<BR>
I need more coffee...<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:10:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn posted:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 21 May 00, at 23:20, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Geez, are we getting PC on this ML?  Being arrogant is <BR>
> not a bad thing people, it is a good thing.  Arrogance<BR>
> is only pride in one's own self. <BR>
<BR>
Arrogance has always been, is now, and will always be,<BR>
bad. Pride in "one's self" is worthless because no one<BR>
chose they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
> > The Zhodani do take pride in themselves, correct?<BR>
<BR>
No, actually they don't. They believe their chosen<BR>
behavior patterns as a whole society are better than those<BR>
of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
As usual, this belief is inaccurate.<BR>
<BR>
> My Pocket OED says that to be arrogant is to be <BR>
> "Overbearing; presumptuous" and arrogance is to claim<BR>
> unduly a (thing or quality) to oneself, whereas being<BR>
> proud (having pride in oneself) is having self-<BR>
> respect and avoidance of unworthy actions.<BR>
> <BR>
> Under _Proud_ it implies that excessive pride is arrogance, <BR>
> but normal pride in oneself is not. They are different in<BR>
> degree, if not in kind.<BR>
<BR>
Correct.<BR>
<BR>
Pride is indicative of a person's knowledge of their own<BR>
accomplishments.<BR>
<BR>
Arrogance is indicative of a person's lack of self-worth.<BR>
Arrogant people either steal someone else's accomplishments<BR>
in order to feel important because they feel they haven't<BR>
accomplished anything of worth on their own or they blow<BR>
their own accomplishments out of proportion with reality<BR>
for the same reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Example:<BR>
Stuart Ferris and Jesse DeGraff are proud of their<BR>
contributions to the Traveller community worldwide.<BR>
Neither are arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:43:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2480<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson posted:<BR>
> <BR>
> (btw, Imperial Lines came out when GDW started doing <BR>
> Challenge magazine, as <BR>
> a strictly MT 'zine.  It was 8 pages, and AFAIK only lasted the one <BR>
> issue.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, there was also in issue #2 and an issue<BR>
combining #3 & 4.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:48:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Religious Conflicts In Traveller (Was RE: Legate Legion)<BR>
<BR>
jim clem posted:<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav:  Having been off and on the list for quite a while, is there<BR>
> anything in canon, or in anyone's campaigns, about long running <BR>
> religious/ethnic conflicts.  Always fodder for giving PCs a headache.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. In "The Traveller Adventure", the PCs accidently run afoul<BR>
of the locals' religious beliefs on Porozlo, I believe, with one<BR>
ending up imprisoned while the others figure a way to free the<BR>
prisoner.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:55:59 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
>On 23 May 00, at 0:09, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Another reason that occurs to me is that the client state is a<BR>
>>multi-system polity, and wishes to remain so.<BR>
> <BR>
>This raises another poitn: It's canonical that one planet can be owned <BR>
>by another within the 3I, so at what point does ownership of other <BR>
>systems make the owner/owned group a multi-system polity, and thus not <BR>
>allowable within the Imperium?<BR>
 <BR>
What makes you say that multi-system polities are not allowed within the<BR>
Imperium? I know a lot of people claim that to be so, but I know of no<BR>
canonical reference that says so. OTOH it is, as you said, canonical that<BR>
one Imperial planet can own another. It is also canonical that the<BR>
Imperium has created several multi-world polities of their own (the Antarean,<BR>
Solomani and Vegan autonomous regions).<BR>
<BR>
I also have a VERY vague notion that the writeup of the Duchy of Oasis in<BR>
one of the latter issues of _Challenge_ claimed that before the Rebellion<BR>
it had been a multi-world polity of some kind, but it's in one of the<BR>
issues I don't have, and I may very well be misremembering.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:15:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:56 PM 5/22/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he will<BR>
>> be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander <BR>
>> relatives are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't the <BR>
>> nice place, but the very bad place.<BR>
><BR>
>   Umm, didn't this child already leave the list once Doug?<BR>
<BR>
I think so, but I'm having fun putting together his family tree, since he's<BR>
also claimed at one point to be South African, and now he sounds like a<BR>
fire and thunder Presbyterian conservative.  Hell is not a Jewish concept,<BR>
and I've never heard "papist" used except by extremist protestant groups.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2481<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2482<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller (Was RE: Legate Legion)<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Legion Rides Again<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
RE: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
RE: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
Bad Adventure Ideas (was: Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller)<BR>
Re: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Bad Adventure Ideas <BR>
Re:3D Gallery<BR>
OK, we just had a bright idea for the con party...<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Milieu 0 was Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
You scare me was  Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:16:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
At 10:42 PM 5/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    *weg*  So does this mean I can continue to pray to Doug Berry for a safe<BR>
>ride across Phoenix, or not?<BR>
<BR>
Only if you are in a SuperShuttle...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:21:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
At 07:43 PM 5/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I think everyone is missing the point. The soldiers firing into the crowd <BR>
>are your suspects. If, under Truth Drug, they say they were fired on first, <BR>
>then you go looking for other suspects.<BR>
<BR>
But if they honestly believed that they had been fired on, then that will<BR>
be the "truth" for them.<BR>
<BR>
A great quote from a history channel show about the RFK killing last night:<BR>
"I hate eye-witnesses in a murder case.  Give a case with no witnesses and<BR>
just physical evidence."<BR>
<BR>
So Pvt. Snuffy is given the drug and asked "were you fired on?"  Snuffy's<BR>
brain has trnaslated several events into supporting his concept that he was<BR>
under fire, answers "yes," with all honesty.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:25:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
At 03:43 PM 5/23/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I suppose that is possible, although the transport rules in _FFW_ certainly<BR>
>does not suggest anything like that. However, regardless of size, the marine<BR>
>regiments _are not armored_. I would have thought that troops in Battle<BR>
>Dress would count as armored, wouldn't you?<BR>
<BR>
Hans, armored in this context means having a high percentage of main battle<BR>
tanks as an organic part of the unit.<BR>
<BR>
>Even if the effect is achieved with less, a marine regiment is no tougher<BR>
>than any other TL 15 regiment and less so than some. <BR>
<BR>
They are also able to reach the surface with active SDBs in the system.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:34:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 08:42 PM 5/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What were the Phillipines?<BR>
<BR>
A protectorate.  Semi-independant, with His Imperial Majesty, Douglas I,<BR>
Marshal Imperator, at the helm.  Hail Caeser! Hail MacArthur!<BR>
<BR>
It was not US soil.<BR>
<BR>
>It still didn't qualify as U.S. soil.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry, but you are wrong.  Don't mean to be rude about this, but the<BR>
Territory of Hawaii was as much US soil as Arizona and New Mexico were<BR>
before they became states.  The land belonged to the US government, and was<BR>
under our laws and protection.<BR>
<BR>
If you have another definition of what constitutes US soil I'd be<BR>
interested in hearing it.<BR>
<BR>
>And again, it doesn't mean I don't think it was an act of war or that we<BR>
>shouldn't have gone off and put the stomp on the people who did it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, they did kill several thousand people and sink our Pacific Fleet... I<BR>
think that's excuse enough.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 07:53:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 09:10 AM 5/23/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Stuart Ferris and Jesse DeGraff are proud of their<BR>
>contributions to the Traveller community worldwide.<BR>
>Neither are arrogant.<BR>
<BR>
You've never spent nine hours in a car with Jesse. <g,d,r><BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:01:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller (Was RE: Legate Legion)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:48 AM 5/23/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yes. In "The Traveller Adventure", the PCs accidently run afoul<BR>
>of the locals' religious beliefs on Porozlo<BR>
<BR>
That was Psyadi/Aramis<BR>
<BR>
>I believe, with one ending up imprisoned while the others figure <BR>
>a way to free the prisoner.<BR>
<BR>
Shoot shoot shoot...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:03:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    *weg*  So does this mean I can continue to pray to Doug Berry for a<BR>
safe<BR>
>>ride across Phoenix, or not?<BR>
><BR>
>Only if you are in a SuperShuttle...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Damn.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:17:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
At 09:03 AM 5/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Only if you are in a SuperShuttle...<BR>
><BR>
>    Damn.<BR>
<BR>
I just realized... Phoenix... Hey, you want an autographed copy of GF?  Go<BR>
to SuperShuttle's centralized reservation center and teach each and every<BR>
person there that the there are both numbered *streets* and *avenues* in<BR>
San Francisco, and the difference between 300 19th Street and 300 19th<BR>
Avenue is a distance of seven miles.<BR>
<BR>
That and teach them to Junipero Serra is not spelled Hoonipearo Sarah, it's<BR>
just pronounced that way.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: There are several worlds with the same name in the SM, Tenalphi<BR>
comes to mind, and close matches like Dinom and Dinomn.  Even Efate and<BR>
Enope can be confused.  So what happenes when the orders are routed to the<BR>
wrong place, or the cargo goes astry?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:48:37 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Legion Rides Again<BR>
<BR>
Mr Legion is being inflammatory again. True, I find him less offensive than<BR>
when he was proudly proclaiming to be a terrorist in his sig line, but he<BR>
just seems to be one of those characters that can't stop themselves causing<BR>
trouble.<BR>
<BR>
When Clif did that, a stern ignoring got rid of him.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the same treatment will nudge legion towards either growing up of<BR>
trolling on some other list.<BR>
<BR>
We all have axes to grind and ancestors who suffered. Take it someplace else<BR>
and let's talk Traveller, huh?<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:20:41 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>A protectorate.  Semi-independant, with His Imperial Majesty, Douglas I,<BR>
Marshal Imperator, at the helm.  Hail Caeser! Hail MacArthur!<BR>
<BR>
It was not US soil.<<BR>
<BR>
Ah, a Mac Arthur fan. Cool. :-P<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sorry, but you are wrong.  Don't mean to be rude about this, but the<BR>
Territory of Hawaii was as much US soil as Arizona and New Mexico were<BR>
before they became states.  The land belonged to the US government, and was<BR>
under our laws and protection.<<BR>
<BR>
So were the Philippines. Now where is the difference?<BR>
<BR>
>If you have another definition of what constitutes US soil I'd be<BR>
interested in hearing it.<<BR>
<BR>
U.S. soil is a State or the D.C. Anything else is a possession and of lesser<BR>
status. A Territory can be given away at any time without the consent of the<BR>
inhabitants. A State can not.<BR>
And I will repeat, no history I have ever read has ever called the Pearl<BR>
Harbor attack one on U.S. soil. So you show me a reference that does and<BR>
I'll consider changing my mind.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, they did kill several thousand people and sink our Pacific Fleet... I<BR>
think that's excuse enough.<<BR>
<BR>
Pretty much.<BR>
Oh, and as another fun bit of history, the first order given to surviving<BR>
subs of the U.S. Pacific fleet was to carry out unrestricted warfare against<BR>
the Japanese. Including sinking merchant ships without warning. Interesting<BR>
how something can be so wrong in one war but so acceptable in the next.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:42:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/23/00 10:17 AM, gridlore@pop.mindspring.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: There are several worlds with the same name in the SM, Tenalphi<BR>
> comes to mind, and close matches like Dinom and Dinomn.  Even Efate and<BR>
> Enope can be confused.  So what happenes when the orders are routed to the<BR>
> wrong place, or the cargo goes astry?<BR>
<BR>
There are also two Mirriams, both in the Spinward Marches.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:47:52 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
<BR>
Check out the following article on the "Ionocraft".  Looks interesting, is <BR>
it truth or another water engine?<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:56:17 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
<BR>
Might help if you sent the link ;)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kurt<BR>
> Feltenberger<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:48 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Check out the following article on the "Ionocraft".  Looks <BR>
> interesting, is <BR>
> it truth or another water engine?<BR>
> <BR>
> Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
> <BR>
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
>     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
>       ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:10:34 -0500<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
Steve Charlton wrote (Mon, 22 May 2000 15:08:44 +0200):<BR>
>And the Sheep or Queers remark comes from a movie (Officer and a<BR>
>Gentleman, I think) and years ofgeneral regional abuse.  Since most<BR>
of my >family is from West By God Virginia, I have to make sure<BR>
everyone >understands that we DO NOT chase after the sheep if they are<BR>
relatives.  >That's Arkansas...<BR>
Sorry, no sheep here.<BR>
<BR>
"Legate Legion" wrote (Mon, 22 May 2000 10:15:16 -0700):<BR>
>>You forget the remark can also be made about Arizona.<BR>
Sorry, didn't see sheep when I lived at Luke AFB. My friends<BR>
in Tucson haven't seen any either.<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" wrote (Mon, 22 May 2000 12:22:19 -0700)<BR>
>>That's SOUTHERN Arkansas, right around Hot Springs...<BR>
Sorry, still no sheep here.<BR>
<BR>
<snip/paraphrase> any why the blunder in the White House.....<BR>
On this, I largely concur. While I could care less about<BR>
what he does with his off time,  I do take great exception with<BR>
his policies. I will be happy when Jan 20, 2001 arrives.<BR>
<BR>
>>...not picking a fight<BR>
Ok. I take you at your word.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveler:  I'm not doing the land grab for Spirrele, but I<BR>
suspect that the sophots there probably don't see any sheep<BR>
either. Course they could have a really fun time trading<BR>
regional epithets with the Sword Worlds in the neighborhood.<BR>
And then there is the whole Regina vs Mora bit. I can see<BR>
something like "Reginanens chase after Grotes if their family."<BR>
One could come up with something equal obnoxious about<BR>
Morans. Finally, there's always Santonochev to pick on....<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Hot Springs, Arkansas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:14:15 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL 9 in 1964??<BR>
<BR>
At 10:56 AM 05/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Might help if you sent the link ;)<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
<BR>
Duh!  I was taking a call when I sent the post.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.markwilson.com/ioncraft/<BR>
<BR>
Hope this has more success!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:19:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Bad Adventure Ideas (was: Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> >I believe, with one ending up imprisoned while the others figure<BR>
> >a way to free the prisoner.<BR>
><BR>
> Shoot shoot shoot...<BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
Never a smart idea for an adventure. I mentioned a similarly styled<BR>
adventure for 'The Babylon Project' once at the group I play with that I had<BR>
found online and none of us could think of any reason for risking the lives<BR>
of the rest of the party just for the rescue of one PC. This led to us<BR>
recalling an off the cuff comment one player made when a PC was dragged away<BR>
kicking and screaming to be hanged in Twilight2000: 'Oh well, I never liked<BR>
him anyway'.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:12:34 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 23 May 2000, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> Imagine if you will...the "smart house", available now. Near future is<BR>
> voice activation/response aka the ST:TNG era ship's computers...at<BR>
> higher TL's these would (probably?) have A.I. subroutines, the capacity<BR>
> to learn the residents/owners likes/dislikes. Allowing for TL advance<BR>
> these would be standard in house construction...the personalities would<BR>
> tend to reflect the families. After several generations the house would<BR>
> be part of the family..the same would probably be the same for ship<BR>
> computers...Until the advent of Virus I suppose...<BR>
> <BR>
> The point of this post is...what would the house computer of a group<BR>
> house...student accomodation...turn out like? In the house I'm in we<BR>
> have had a dozen residents in the last 18 months...there are 6 people<BR>
> living here now...<BR>
<BR>
At sufficient levels of sophistication it might be able to display multiple<BR>
personalities.  Each one customised to the individual and their current<BR>
disposition.  Then you have the problem, especially in a student doss, where the<BR>
house computer could be perceived as being, literally, two-faced.<BR>
<BR>
Another question:  How many people would allow these house computers to have<BR>
'eyes' that could watch the entire house.  I can't think of much utility for it<BR>
to have this ability, but on High Law level worlds it could be standard.  The<BR>
house computer reporting any 'unsanctioned' behaviour to the authorities.<BR>
<BR>
> Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
<BR>
The Enlisted crewmen, you never see them either.<g><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
7:12pm up 17 days, 14 min, 2 users, load average: 2.17, 1.60, 0.90<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:30:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:20 PM 5/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ah, a Mac Arthur fan. Cool. :-P<BR>
<BR>
Not at all.. he was a megalomaniac that had been all but run out of the<BR>
United States.  Read "American Caesar"<BR>
><BR>
>>I'm sorry, but you are wrong.  Don't mean to be rude about this, but the<BR>
>Territory of Hawaii was as much US soil as Arizona and New Mexico were<BR>
>before they became states.  The land belonged to the US government, and was<BR>
>under our laws and protection.<<BR>
><BR>
>So were the Philippines. Now where is the difference?<BR>
<BR>
The Philippines had their own government.  They were not subject to United<BR>
States laws.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.ualberta.ca/~vmitchel/fw5.html<BR>
<BR>
>>If you have another definition of what constitutes US soil I'd be<BR>
>interested in hearing it.<<BR>
><BR>
>U.S. soil is a State or the D.C. Anything else is a possession and of lesser<BR>
>status. A Territory can be given away at any time without the consent of the<BR>
>inhabitants. A State can not.<BR>
<BR>
Neither can a constituted territory.  A possession, like the Virgin<BR>
Islands, can set it's own laws and standards.  I'm not sure, but I don't<BR>
think the people in possessions and protectorates pay taxes.<BR>
<BR>
>And I will repeat, no history I have ever read has ever called the Pearl<BR>
>Harbor attack one on U.S. soil. So you show me a reference that does and<BR>
>I'll consider changing my mind.<BR>
<BR>
The United States Congress sure seemed to think so..<BR>
<BR>
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/japwar.html<BR>
<BR>
An attack solely on the Navy would be an attack on the government only, by<BR>
including "the people" of the territory of Hawaii, it was clear that Japan<BR>
had attacked the US.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and as another fun bit of history, the first order given to surviving<BR>
>subs of the U.S. Pacific fleet was to carry out unrestricted warfare against<BR>
>the Japanese. Including sinking merchant ships without warning. Interesting<BR>
>how something can be so wrong in one war but so acceptable in the next.<BR>
<BR>
We were at war.  What people objected to in WWI was the practise of the<BR>
Imperial German Navy to sink neutral ships, like the Lusitania.<BR>
<BR>
Sinking merchant shipping is what won the war for us.  We strangled their<BR>
ability to resupply, and by the end of the war, malnutrition was becoming a<BR>
problem in the home islands.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:36:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bad Adventure Ideas <BR>
<BR>
Dave Pullen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Never a smart idea for an adventure. I mentioned a similarly styled<BR>
> adventure for 'The Babylon Project' once at the group I play with that I<BR>
had<BR>
> found online and none of us could think of any reason for risking the<BR>
lives<BR>
> of the rest of the party just for the rescue of one PC.<BR>
<BR>
What if you make the captured PC essential for the attainment of the group's<BR>
objective? Maybe the captured PC is the only one with the necessary psionic<BR>
abilities to activate that ancient artifact.<BR>
<BR>
Or external factors mandate it? If you are running a group which is composed<BR>
of active duty military personnel, then they can simply be ordered to<BR>
attempt the rescue.<BR>
<BR>
Or some sort of legal issue makes it very appealing. Maybe the owner of the<BR>
group's starship is the one who is emprisoned, and the legal difficulties<BR>
around further use of the ship makes the rescue look like a good thing.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe what the captured PC knows is too dangerous or too embarassing to the<BR>
wrong person.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:42:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re:3D Gallery<BR>
<BR>
I found a cool gallery online:<BR>
http://www.x3d.net/gallery/gallery1.html<BR>
The fourth pic down is my fave so far. I just found it and am poking around.<BR>
Nice looking site, check it out.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:45:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: OK, we just had a bright idea for the con party...<BR>
<BR>
.. and I need y'all's help.  We're going to do a Traveller Trivia Contest,<BR>
with an autographed copy of either ACQ or Ground Forces as the prize.<BR>
<BR>
What I need are questions.. CT mostly, but setting will do.  Format this way:<BR>
<BR>
1. On the Traveller box, what two systems have failed on the Beowulf?<BR>
<BR>
a: Jump Drive and Computer<BR>
b: Main Drive and Turret #1<BR>
c: Both Turrets<BR>
d: Power Plant and Fire Control<BR>
<BR>
2. What is the name of Emperor Strephon's wife?<BR>
<BR>
a: Margeret<BR>
b: Iolanthe<BR>
c: Candi<BR>
d: Igsiirdi<BR>
<BR>
3. What was the first book released for Traveller after the boxed set?<BR>
<BR>
a: Book 4, Mercenary<BR>
b: Adventure 1, The Kinunir<BR>
c: Supplement 1, 1001 Characters<BR>
d: Book 0, An Introduction to Traveller<BR>
<BR>
4. In Adventure 1, what name was used for the Zhodani?<BR>
<BR>
a: Barbarians<BR>
b: Suel<BR>
c: Los Angeles Dodgers<BR>
d: Those Jerks.<BR>
<BR>
(The answers, of course, are b,b,b,a)<BR>
<BR>
If I can get about forty of these, it should be fun.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:46:41 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>Not at all.. he was a megalomaniac that had been all but run out of the<BR>
United States.  Read "American Caesar"<<BR>
<BR>
I was joking.<BR>
<BR>
>An attack solely on the Navy would be an attack on the government only, by<BR>
including "the people" of the territory of Hawaii, it was clear that Japan<BR>
had attacked the US.<<BR>
<BR>
The armed forces being "of the people", no it isn't. If they had, the phrase<BR>
"upon the lands of the united States" would have been included in some<BR>
fashion.<BR>
Obviously, only the abstract "government" and "people" had been attacked,<BR>
not the country itself.<BR>
<BR>
>We were at war.  What people objected to in WWI was the practise of the<BR>
Imperial German Navy to sink neutral ships, like the Lusitania.<<BR>
<BR>
The Lusitania was a reserve cruiser in regular British navy service at the<BR>
time. It was also carrying war munitions. It was not neutral shipping by any<BR>
definition.<BR>
<BR>
>Sinking merchant shipping is what won the war for us.  We strangled their<BR>
ability to resupply, and by the end of the war, malnutrition was becoming a<BR>
problem in the home islands.<<BR>
<BR>
Right, a war crime. Too bad the government had to resort to such and give<BR>
sanction those commanders who went even further. It taints the people who<BR>
served and relied on their leaders to actually do so and not violate<BR>
international treaties they had agreed to. Further, it makes complaints<BR>
about such violations by others of less validity, an even greater disservice<BR>
to those who suffered because of it.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:40:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Milieu 0 was Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
At 21:02 -0400 22/5/00, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
> >     Of course to bring civilisation to Scotland, your people raped &<BR>
> > murdered my people.  If your civilisation is built upon a foundation of<BR>
> > rape & murder, how civilized are you?<BR>
>By that measure no culture/civilisation/nation/society in the modern<BR>
>world would rate very highly. In fact very few from the time<BR>
>agriculture was invented would rate well.<BR>
<BR>
I can remember several distinct objections here on the subject of <BR>
Milieu 0 when it came out that it was too dark and nasty and that the <BR>
Imperium wasn't very nice... and should be more heroic. I think that <BR>
this is what the book was getting at...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:50:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: You scare me was  Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
At 10:59 -0400 23/5/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>I think so, but I'm having fun putting together his family tree, since he's<BR>
>also claimed at one point to be South African, and now he sounds like a<BR>
>fire and thunder Presbyterian conservative.  Hell is not a Jewish concept,<BR>
>and I've never heard "papist" used except by extremist protestant groups.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, are you Zhodani, because you're reading my mind.?! I was trying <BR>
this myself last night...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:48:35 -0400<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
>  > Now if I can just get Stuart to answer my emails about souce code so I can<BR>
>  > start working on that Mac port.<BR>
><BR>
>Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
>thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
>would be screaming!<BR>
<BR>
Indeed!  How long do you think the Mac port is going to take (ballpark figure)?<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
  +GMG+<BR>
- -- <BR>
                Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
           Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
   ++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2482<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2483<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
> Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Legion Rides Again<BR>
Convergence of the old backgrounds Hero Wars/Traveller<BR>
Re: OK, we just had a bright idea for the con party...<BR>
Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2478<BR>
Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)))<BR>
Client States<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)))<BR>
Re: Bad Adventure Ideas<BR>
Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:05:02 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
<de-lurking><BR>
<BR>
Yeah.  Course we call them the KKK.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: children using daddies comp.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:56 PM 5/22/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>  Btw, I do not care.  And, as your grandfather is a papist, well, he<BR>
will<BR>
> >> be going to the same place you hope myself & all of my Highlander<BR>
> >> relatives are.  It is the same place you will be going to, & it isn't<BR>
the<BR>
> >> nice place, but the very bad place.<BR>
> ><BR>
> and I've never heard "papist" used except by extremist protestant groups.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:09:33 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
> On 22 May 00, at 22:47, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>     Yes, I did.  While I may not agree with nuclear weapons use by<BR>
>     private<BR>
> individuals, I do not think the use of nuclear weapons is an<BR>
> inherently evil act.  I think if you have to use them, to defend<BR>
> your country, you have to use them.  But, the use of nuclear weapons<BR>
> by a terrorist (which IIRC is what this thread is about), is an<BR>
> inherently evil act, much like the use of a car bomb by terrorists<BR>
> is an inherently evil act.<BR>
 <BR>
Some weapons are just *evil* to use given how devastating they <BR>
are, and how their use destroys the entire local ecosystem and <BR>
harms the biosphere in a significant manner.  <BR>
<BR>
In thinking about weapons of mass destruction in Traveller, I'm <BR>
remembering Bruce Sterling's excellent novel Schismatrix, where a <BR>
society of humans who lived in space colonies had an incredibly <BR>
deep-rooted prejudice against weapons which punched holes in or <BR>
could otherwise destroy entire colonies.  <BR>
<BR>
In addition to frowning upon orbital bombardments with nukes, I <BR>
imagine that in the Imperium, any bombardment of sealed cities on <BR>
vacuum worlds might well be outside the Imperial Rules of War.  <BR>
Given the number of sophonts who live on worlds with vacuum or <BR>
poisonous atmospheres I cold see a heavy pressure to put such <BR>
rules in place.<BR>
<BR>
     <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:13:35 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Legion Rides Again<BR>
<BR>
MJ Dougherty wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Mr Legion is being inflammatory again. True, I find him less offensive than when he was proudly proclaiming to be a terrorist in his sig line, but he just seems to be one of those characters that can't stop themselves causing trouble.<BR>
<BR>
When Clif did that, a stern ignoring got rid of him.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the same treatment will nudge legion towards either growing up of trolling on some other list.<BR>
<BR>
We all have axes to grind and ancestors who suffered. Take it someplace else and let's talk Traveller, huh?<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
I fully agree!  I expected discussions about traveller here and am getting tired of having to delete that email string.  I greatly enjoy the actual traveller discussions, but I hate having to weed through to find them.   <BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:34:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Convergence of the old backgrounds Hero Wars/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
I also have quite a strong Glorantha habit as well as Traveller, and <BR>
so I've been enjoying the newly release Hero Wars. I've just started <BR>
the Narrator (GM's) Book and have been struck upon the conceptual <BR>
similarity to Traveller in the notes on adventure forms and the skill <BR>
test descriptions.<BR>
<BR>
The adventure forms are described in terms of scenes and episodes, <BR>
but under it all it feels like the nugget format (as used by DGP, GDW <BR>
and BITS) with key descriptions and outcomes. The skill test <BR>
descriptions are structured as a paragraph which is described not a <BR>
million miles different to a task system descriptor from <BR>
MT/TNE/T4/BITS system.<BR>
<BR>
It just struck me as quite interesting, as I can't recall that many <BR>
systems that do this. The Hero Wars system is a lot more free form, <BR>
but the feel is very Traveller (at least to someone who has been <BR>
writing/playing for a bit now).<BR>
<BR>
The mechanics of course, are totally different, based on a D20 (but <BR>
unlike TNE) and using some clever tricks to give the impact of <BR>
mastery of skills (converting failure to success etc). It suits <BR>
heroic play well, and captures the RQ/Glorantha feel without the <BR>
rules overheads of the old BRP based system.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:36:31 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OK, we just had a bright idea for the con party...<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> .. and I need y'all's help.  We're going to do a Traveller Trivia Contest,<BR>
> with an autographed copy of either ACQ or Ground Forces as the prize.<BR>
> <BR>
> What I need are questions.. CT mostly, but setting will do.  Format this way:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. On the Traveller box, what two systems have failed on the Beowulf?<BR>
> <BR>
> a: Jump Drive and Computer<BR>
> b: Main Drive and Turret #1<BR>
> c: Both Turrets<BR>
> d: Power Plant and Fire Control<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> If I can get about forty of these, it should be fun.<BR>
<BR>
I'd offer to help, but then I'd have to recuse myself from the contest.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:53:08 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know where I can find, or can they<BR>
send me, the Atlas of The Imperium data for the<BR>
sectors formerly done with Judge's Guild products?<BR>
The ex-communicated sectors.  I've misplaced<BR>
that list that someone posted a few months ago.<BR>
I don't know which sectors these are except for<BR>
Ley and Glimmerdrift.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:52:45 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
At 15:01 -0400 23/5/00, o Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> wrote:<BR>
> >Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
> >thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
> >would be screaming!<BR>
><BR>
>Indeed!  How long do you think the Mac port is going to take <BR>
>(ballpark figure)?<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. If we could persuade whoever coded it to put in hooks for the <BR>
G4's Velocity Engine as well...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:48:23 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doug Berry: Great Old One on Wheels<BR>
<BR>
At 15:01 -0400 23/5/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>ObTrav: There are several worlds with the same name in the SM, Tenalphi<BR>
>comes to mind, and close matches like Dinom and Dinomn.  Even Efate and<BR>
>Enope can be confused.  So what happenes when the orders are routed to the<BR>
>wrong place, or the cargo goes astry?<BR>
<BR>
I did a misdirected passenger using the Dinom/Dinomn trick. The <BR>
players didn't read it correctly as written down and jumped to the <BR>
wrong system, the passenger was pissed off and ended up with a second <BR>
jump free, plus compensation when he mentioned legal action. (they <BR>
didn't want Imperial problems). They did consider spacing him for a <BR>
bit.<BR>
<BR>
I toy with the idea of doing up Old Dinomn High for JTAS (a spun <BR>
Cherryh like orbital)...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:28:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 02:46 PM 5/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Obviously, only the abstract "government" and "people" had been attacked,<BR>
>not the country itself.<BR>
<BR>
Try telling the Pearl Harbor civilian survivors that, or the folk strafed<BR>
at Kole-Kole pass.<BR>
<BR>
A territory of the United States is part of the United States.  Citizens in<BR>
these territories follow the same laws, have the vote, pay taxes, and enjoy<BR>
all the benefits of being part of the United States.<BR>
<BR>
When the Aluetian Islands of Kiska and Attu were invaded, it marked the<BR>
only time American soil was occupied by the enemy.  Alaska, in 1942, was a<BR>
Territory just like Hawaii.  They both were American soil.  <BR>
<BR>
Trust me on this, it's red-letter law. <BR>
><BR>
>>We were at war.  What people objected to in WWI was the practise of the<BR>
>Imperial German Navy to sink neutral ships, like the Lusitania.<<BR>
><BR>
>The Lusitania was a reserve cruiser in regular British navy service at the<BR>
>time. It was also carrying war munitions. It was not neutral shipping by any<BR>
>definition.<BR>
<BR>
It was a passenger ship carrying civilians, with her lights on, travelling<BR>
from a neutral port.<BR>
<BR>
>>Sinking merchant shipping is what won the war for us.  We strangled their<BR>
>ability to resupply, and by the end of the war, malnutrition was becoming a<BR>
>problem in the home islands.<<BR>
><BR>
>Right, a war crime. Too bad the government had to resort to such and give<BR>
>sanction those commanders who went even further. It taints the people who<BR>
>served and relied on their leaders to actually do so and not violate<BR>
>international treaties they had agreed to. Further, it makes complaints<BR>
>about such violations by others of less validity, an even greater disservice<BR>
>to those who suffered because of it.<BR>
<BR>
No, it was warfare.  We didn't want in the fight, but were dragged in.  So<BR>
we are not going to pussy-foot around and play by some polite set of rules<BR>
that went out a century earlier.<BR>
<BR>
We needed to destroy the Japanese ability to make war.  We did that.  They<BR>
refused to surrender.  We eliminated their air and naval forces.  They<BR>
refused to surrender.  We firebombed Toykyo, killing 90,000, and they<BR>
refused to surrender.  We finally had to demonstrate *twice* that we<BR>
possessed the ability to exterminate Japan as a people and a culture before<BR>
the Tojo clique was overruled by the Emperor.<BR>
<BR>
If you ever make it to Hawaii, might I suggest a trip out to the USS<BR>
Arizona memorial?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
I resent your implication that Americans are insensitive<BR>
to the culture of the unwashed, ignorant heathens that<BR>
populate the rest of the world. -Shawn Wilson, in a.f.m<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:48:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Eric & Diane Freitas" <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
What toilets?  I've never seen any toilets...  Kind of like most deckplans<BR>
not<BR>
having toilets...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 3:22 AM<BR>
Subject: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Imagine if you will...the "smart house", available now. Near future is<BR>
>voice activation/response aka the ST:TNG era ship's computers...at<BR>
>higher TL's these would (probably?) have A.I. subroutines, the capacity<BR>
>to learn the residents/owners likes/dislikes. Allowing for TL advance<BR>
>these would be standard in house construction...the personalities would<BR>
>tend to reflect the families. After several generations the house would<BR>
>be part of the family..the same would probably be the same for ship<BR>
>computers...Until the advent of Virus I suppose...<BR>
><BR>
>The point of this post is...what would the house computer of a group<BR>
>house...student accomodation...turn out like? In the house I'm in we<BR>
>have had a dozen residents in the last 18 months...there are 6 people<BR>
>living here now...<BR>
><BR>
>Also...who cleans the toilets on the Enterprise?<BR>
><BR>
>Other Rob<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:55:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2478<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 May 2000 18:02:43 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:59:23<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Legate Legion<BR>
><BR>
>At 09:50 AM 5/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going<BR>
>>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander.<BR>
<BR>
>A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."  Which is it?<BR>
<BR>
No, Kiri was never a militant Jewish terrorist - Legate was.<BR>
Kiri is merely (as if the word "merely" could ever apply to her)<BR>
someone who is Not What You Expected - even if you Don't Quite<BR>
Know What You Expected.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:55:14 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)))<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 May 2000 18:02:43 -0400 (EDT), "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
>the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
A Client State is not subject to Imperial taxes.<BR>
<BR>
A Client State can take actions with respect to "foreign affairs"<BR>
that may not be exactly what the Imperium wants, but which is in<BR>
its own best interests.<BR>
<BR>
A Client State may have laws that have great importance to them,<BR>
but which would have to be abrogated/repealed if they joined the<BR>
Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Secondary question: Why might the Imperium prefer that a Client<BR>
State remain so, instead of being incorporated into the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
A Client State can be used as a proxy in situations where direct<BR>
Imperial involvement would be ill-advised or outright<BR>
provocative.<BR>
<BR>
A Client State does not impose the same sort of obligations on<BR>
the Imperium that a Member State does - if a proxy operation goes<BR>
badly wrong, the Imperium can disclaim all knowledge of it, and<BR>
abandon the Client State to the consequences. A Member State must<BR>
be protected.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:02:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Client States<BR>
<BR>
In response to the question "why don't client states<BR>
join the Imperium:"<BR>
<BR>
I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of the<BR>
Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives - so<BR>
don't flame me if this is canonically incorrect, but:<BR>
<BR>
Could it be that some client states don't want to<BR>
comply with the various conditions that Imperial<BR>
membership entails, like:<BR>
<BR>
- - Impy taxes (or maybe just _more_ Impy taxes).<BR>
- - You're expected to generally agree with Imperial<BR>
policy if you're a client state, but if you're a<BR>
member world you have to agree with all the specifics.<BR>
- - The ban on slavery - I imagine some client states<BR>
are havens for the slave trade.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you're a client state then it's easier<BR>
to swap allegiances if you don't like the way Impy<BR>
policy is going than if you're an Imperial member<BR>
world.<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:04:50 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 15:01 -0400 23/5/00, o Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> wrote:<BR>
> > >Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
> > >thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
> > >would be screaming!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Indeed!  How long do you think the Mac port is going to take<BR>
> >(ballpark figure)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm. If we could persuade whoever coded it to put in hooks for the<BR>
> G4's Velocity Engine as well...<BR>
<BR>
Well, _I'm NOT volunteering for the port_, but according to their Web<BR>
pages and reputation, RealBASIC (http://www.realbasic.com) is supposed<BR>
to make it reasonably easy to port VBasic apps. Now, the problem will<BR>
arise in all those 'X' thing extra MS libraries...those don't translate<BR>
well at all, nor is calling them from the MS IE for Mac libs trivial.<BR>
<BR>
However, they have been working hard on doing this...a program written<BR>
in realBasic will compile for Win32 as well as Mac.<BR>
<BR>
However, (coming into this from way off in left field) if theonly reason<BR>
those things are there is to get HTML output, well, it's not really<BR>
needed...HTML is, after, all, Plain Old Text, and as such you can pretty<BR>
well program anything you want in html using 'print' commands....<BR>
<BR>
As for Altivec...that support _should_ be relatively transparent, I<BR>
would think, but we won't really know that until the only OS that<BR>
routinely uses it (OSX) is out this summer.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:07:41 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT)))<BR>
<BR>
One other reason why a world may want to remain outside<BR>
the Imperium: protection of the local language. A world<BR>
might feel that Ganglic would gradually become the majority<BR>
language if the world joinedthe Imperium. Arguments like<BR>
these are common on Earth today (they're often used in<BR>
Puerto Rico against statehood, for example).<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 4:55 PM<BR>
Subject: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of<BR>
OT)))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 18:02:43 -0400 (EDT), "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
> <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >ObTrav:  Why would a client state prefer to keep that status over joining<BR>
> >the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
> A Client State is not subject to Imperial taxes.<BR>
><BR>
> A Client State can take actions with respect to "foreign affairs"<BR>
> that may not be exactly what the Imperium wants, but which is in<BR>
> its own best interests.<BR>
><BR>
> A Client State may have laws that have great importance to them,<BR>
> but which would have to be abrogated/repealed if they joined the<BR>
> Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Secondary question: Why might the Imperium prefer that a Client<BR>
> State remain so, instead of being incorporated into the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
> A Client State can be used as a proxy in situations where direct<BR>
> Imperial involvement would be ill-advised or outright<BR>
> provocative.<BR>
><BR>
> A Client State does not impose the same sort of obligations on<BR>
> the Imperium that a Member State does - if a proxy operation goes<BR>
> badly wrong, the Imperium can disclaim all knowledge of it, and<BR>
> abandon the Client State to the consequences. A Member State must<BR>
> be protected.<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:00:08 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Bad Adventure Ideas<BR>
<BR>
Dave Pullen writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I mentioned a similarly styled adventure for 'The Babylon Project' once at<BR>
>the group I play with that I had found online and none of us could think of<BR>
>any reason for risking the lives of the rest of the party just for the<BR>
>rescue of one PC. This led to us recalling an off the cuff comment one<BR>
>player made when a PC was dragged away kicking and screaming to be hanged<BR>
>in Twilight2000: 'Oh well, I never liked him anyway'.<BR>
<BR>
In one session of my old fantasy campaign a PC conducted himself in a fight<BR>
in such a manner that not only did he kill an innocent bystander, the other<BR>
PCs all witnessed against him at the subsequent trial. He got a stiff prison<BR>
sentence and the player had to get himself a new character (though I did<BR>
later run a one-off with a 'Dirty Dozen' type mission where the PC was one<BR>
of the felons enlisted).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"What's your saving throw against spells which normally allow no<BR>
 saving throw?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:06:36 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><div>Fellow TMLers:</div><BR>
<BR>
<div>I never ceases to amaze me, but whenever I have been too busy toread</div><div>the TML, someone has raised their &quot;e-mail fists&quot; inanger.&nbsp; Lets discuss</div><div>Traveller and not let personal reasons get your dander up.</div><BR>
<div>Since May 5th, there were almost 90 messages, of which one-thirdwere</div><div>rants and flame wars.&nbsp; I'm tired...........</div><BR>
<div>For Kiri:</div><BR>
<div>Good to see you're still there.</div><BR>
<div>Could you explain the meaning of &quot;bakamono&quot;&nbsp;and&nbsp; &quot;chikushou&quot;&nbsp; for me</div><div>and the Japanese characters of these words?&nbsp; Thanks inadvance.</div><BR>
<div>Eric</div><BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>holmberg@thuntek.net<BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>6pm to MidnightMountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st,ls+, pi+, ta+, <BR>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>as+,va+, dr+, </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>sa, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da,sy, hu <BR>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>(sa= other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:12:42 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans, armored in this context means having a high percentage of main battle<BR>
>tanks as an organic part of the unit.<BR>
<BR>
I see. Yes, that makes sense, since the rules calls the symbol that marks<BR>
the units that gets doubled in combat for the tank symbol. OK, two questions:<BR>
<BR>
1) What is the difference between Armored Infantry and Armored Cavalry and<BR>
   Grav Tanks? All three unit types gets the doubling in combat factor. I<BR>
   thought 'cavalry' was the modern-day name for tank units, but if<BR>
   armored infantry has a high percentage of main battle tanks and if there<BR>
   is a difference between armored cavalry and grav tanks, then that is<BR>
   obviously not the case.<BR>
<BR>
2) Since marine regiments are not significantly better than other TL 15<BR>
   troops (I checked the descriptions of the 4518th in JTAS9 and marine<BR>
   regiments in JTAS12 and they have roughly the same number of people),<BR>
   does that mean that Battle Dresses are pretty useless or that all other<BR>
   TL 15 troops use them too?<BR>
 <BR>
>>Even if the effect is achieved with less, a marine regiment is no tougher<BR>
>>than any other TL 15 regiment and less so than some. <BR>
> <BR>
>They are also able to reach the surface with active SDBs in the system.<BR>
<BR>
Eh? Wouldn't that depend on the Navy force that carried them? Or do you<BR>
mean that they are equipped to get from orbit to ground in the face of<BR>
hostile SDBs? In any case, I don't quite understand what that has to do<BR>
with their relative combat strength.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:16:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
Eric T. Holmes writes:<BR>
> <div>Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<gibberish snipped>.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of things to rant about, please don't use HTML on the list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:22:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> Subject: Re: Client States (was: Re: The Will to Win....)<BR>
> <BR>
> On 23 May 00, at 0:09, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Another reason that occurs to me is that the client state is a<BR>
> > multi-system polity, and wishes to remain so.<BR>
> <BR>
> This raises another poitn: It's canoniacal that one planet can be owned <BR>
> by another within the 3I, so at what point does ownership of other <BR>
> systems make the owner/owned group a multi-system polity, and thus not <BR>
> allowable within the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
When Sufficiently Important People think it's become an issue.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, this is a government of men, not laws ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:25:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 23 May 2000, Eric T. Holmes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For Kiri:<BR>
> <BR>
> Good to see you're still there.<BR>
> <BR>
Hiroshi and I broke up on the same day that I lost my last job.  My head<BR>
was NOT in a good place for a while and no one would have appreciated<BR>
hearing anything that I had to say.  I mass deleted everything that didn't<BR>
look like personal email from close friends.  Even if it was from a<BR>
friend, if it was list mail I wasn't reading it, or barely scanning it.<BR>
At my new job I have much less time to geek about Traveller, gossip, etc.<BR>
But I'm happier.<BR>
<BR>
> Could you explain the meaning of "bakamono"  and  "chikushou"  for me<BR>
> and the Japanese characters of these words?  Thanks in advance.<BR>
> <BR>
I can only send you the characters if your computer has the software<BR>
necessary to receive them.  They're not ASCII characters.  All my email<BR>
from my home computer is in Shift-JIS, but your computer can still read it<BR>
because I don't have to use characters that it can't recognize to send you<BR>
English email.  If I send you the characters they will look like<BR>
gibberish.<BR>
<BR>
Bakamono means "big idiot" which is not to be confused with "bakemono"<BR>
which means "big/nasty evil spirit".  Chikushou means "monster".<BR>
<BR>
They are all fightin' words.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2483<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2484</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/23/00 4:38:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2484<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions<BR>
re:  Do you remember: The TML Landgrab<BR>
Re: Trade Cartels<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
please report to SolSec (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: please report to SolSec (was Re: International Waters)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
Re: off line for a few days<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2478<BR>
Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:34:15 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> This raises another poitn: It's canoniacal that one planet can be owned<BR>
> by another within the 3I,<BR>
<BR>
Yes. Government type:  Captive Government.<BR>
<BR>
> so at what point does ownership of other<BR>
> systems make the owner/owned group a multi-system polity, and thus not<BR>
> allowable within the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
IMTU:<BR>
<BR>
Either when a number of systems join together on a more-or-less equal<BR>
basis or when a single system controls too many other systems.<BR>
<BR>
What exactly counts as too many would depend on the leading noble(s) of<BR>
the sector or subsector in questions. Generally, anything that is<BR>
powerful enough to potentially be threatening to them is illegal.   ;-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:34:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
At 18:26 -0400 23/5/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>As for Altivec...that support _should_ be relatively transparent, I<BR>
>would think, but we won't really know that until the only OS that<BR>
>routinely uses it (OSX) is out this summer.<BR>
<BR>
Jan 2001 now following Developer's conference IIRC<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:36:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
At 18:26 -0400 23/5/00, "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov> wrote:<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><div>Fellow TMLers:</div><BR>
><BR>
><div>I never ceases to amaze me, but whenever I have been too busy to>read</div>I couldn't  read this properly because you're posting HTML. Any chance of a resend?  Dom  - ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------ "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/   ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:41:48 -0700 (PDT)From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>I had written:>> One reason for the popularity of the Pickles Thirty->>Fourth  You replied: >So am I correct in understanding that 34 is a significant >part of the then Mr. Blaine's stage name. Does 34 signify >34 cm perhaps? If so your TU is seems somewhat indelicate.  While I will agree that my Traveller universe may be at times indelicate, I would also point out that my choice of a stage name for Count Tukera is an allusion to an earlier discussion on the TML about stage names for pornovid stars, and not a part of any such indelicacy.  Our earlier discussion posited that the personal name is one's childhood pet and the family name is the street where one lived.  I had commented in an earlier post that I didn't think that "Pickles Thirty-Fourth," which would be my stage name under that approach, would be very successful.  - --Glenn  __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>Subject: re:  Do you remember: The TML Landgrab>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>>>Looking at the TML Landgrab page at Downport it seems >that we've only got 12% of the entries in so  far.  Are   >the  other  entries still in progress or have people lost  >interest?  No, I'm still working on Mongo/Jewell, as well as a Traveller campaign, but I don't have any particular deadline.  The landgrab's stated function was to get people to talk about Traveller, and it did that in an admirable way.  Now I look at it like mining claims.  I've staked this here claim, podner, and I'll start taking gold out of it when I'm good and ready.    - --Glenn  __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/  ------------------------------  Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:54:57 +1000 From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au>Subject: Re: Trade CartelsSomeone, possibly Legate, posted about Trade Cartels.  Could someone please forward it to me by email - I wanted to reply to it, but I deleted it during the recent boring OT discussions.  Ian Whitchurch  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:03:43 -0500From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com>Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))  And the Germans had also taken out ads in the papers warning Americans not to get on the Lusitania because it would be sunk. The Germans offered plenty of warning that the Lusitania, which they knew was loaded with munitions against the current rules of warfare (thanks to guys like Churchill) and gunned, was going to be sunk as a belligerent vessel. The Brits made it a belligerent and hid behind civilians, including Americans, in an attempt to 1) sneak in munitions hoping the Germans wouldn't dare to attack civilians, and 2) if sunk, generate an outrage that would bring the US into the war. Unfortunately for the Brits, the sinking of the Lusitania wasn't enough and they would wait another 2 years for the Americans to show up. The Germans were at war with the British and laboring under a crippling blockade (that blocked ships from neutral ports) that also targeted, or even primarily targeted, civilians. Why should the US get the benefit of the doubt about unrestricted sub warfare because we were at war and the Germans not? Because civilians were dumb enough to get on the Lusitania despite plenty of warnings? War generates lots of 'justifications' for things that aren't necessarily just. It always has, and probably always will. But any standard we use should be applied equally. Back to the initial topic, I don't believe the winner of a conflict  is determined by will alone. Hitler used to think that will would save the day. He was wrong. Will is just the enabler. The combatant needs sufficient will to apply the resources available (production, logistics, manpower, destructive potential) that will ultimately determine the outcome. Lack of will prevents the application of these resources and can lead to defeat, sure, but all the will in the world won't save a power facing an overwhelming difference in practical resources and just enough will to use it. In Traveller terms, the 3rd Imperium seems to have more productive capacity than the Zhodani, larger manpower resources, worse logistics (behind the claw is a big obstacle). But neither seem to have enough will to apply what they have in the fullest, hence lots of stalemated Frontier Wars rather than ultimate resolutions. Not that stalemate is necessarily a bad thing when outbreaks in violence are relatively rare.    >>We were at war.  What people objected to in WWI was the practise of the >Imperial German Navy to sink neutral ships, like the Lusitania.<>>The Lusitania was a reserve cruiser in regular British navy service at the >time. It was also carrying war munitions. It was not neutral shipping by any >definition.  It was a passenger ship carrying civilians, with her lights on, travelling from a neutral port.  ------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:04:34 -0700 (PDT)From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>Subject: please report to SolSec (was Re: International Waters)>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com>>The only thing missing is any note of those purges  >affecting SolSec which is rather odd as the Soviets did so  >regularly.  It's not at all odd that there is no note of purges in SolSec or in the Solomani Confederation, because there are in fact _no_ purges there -- nor are there any gulags.  Even the Imperial propaganda machine does not try to fabricate the existence of such things in the great Solomani state.    Citizen, please report to SolSec for a loyalty test and potential assignment to rehabilitative education.  - --Biao Molotov,  Regional Assistant, Information Retrieval Dep't  __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:04:31 -0400From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com>Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))  >Try telling the Pearl Harbor civilian survivors that, or the folk strafedat Kole-Kole pass.<Are you slow or deliberately ignoring what I wrote? I said the people hadbeen attacked just not the country itself.>It was a passenger ship carrying civilians, with her lights on, travellingfrom a neutral port.<It was a naval vessel carrying war material and a bunch of idiots into a warzone.>No, it was warfare.  We didn't want in the fight, but were dragged in.  So we are not going to pussy-foot around and play by some polite set of rulesthat went out a century earlier.<So then there was nothing wrong with the Germans sinking the Lusitania whichwas less than a century ago? Or are you referring to the Geneva Conventionrules on POWs that the Japanese violated to such outrage and executionduring war crimes trials? Which rules were OK to ignore?>We needed to destroy the Japanese ability to make war.  We did that.  They refused to surrender.  We eliminated their air and naval forces.  They refused to surrender.  We firebombed Toykyo, killing 90,000, and they refused to surrender.  We finally had to demonstrate *twice* that we possessed the ability to exterminate Japan as a people and a culture before the Tojo clique was overruled by the Emperor.<They tried to surrender and were refused because American extremistsdemanded vengeance and an unconditional surrender.>If you ever make it to Hawaii, might I suggest a trip out to the USSArizona memorial?<No.Might I suggest a visit to my home and the medals my father received as areclassified 4-F draftee landing at Omaha Beach and during the campaignsafter?There is a difference between patriotism and ignoring crimes. German andJapanese civilians weren't allowed to get off (although Japan is still doinga good job of denying it all) and I see no reason to excuse my country.Indeed, I hold it to a significantly higher standard than those we foughtduring WWII. Of course, you may not care how many things the U.S. did duringWWII were just like the Imperial Japanese, Germans or Nazis.  I do.Sam------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:09:05 -0400From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com>Subject: Re: please report to SolSec (was Re: International Waters)  >Citizen, please report to SolSec for a loyalty test and potential assignment to rehabilitative education.- --Biao Molotov,Regional Assistant, Information Retrieval Dep't<Help, help!  I'm being oppressed!Besides, the Computer is my friend, I don't have to go anywhere with a bunchof Infrareds.Wait...wrong game.:-PSam------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:12:29 -0400From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com>Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))  >In Traveler terms, the 3rd Imperium seems to have more productive capacity than the Zhodani, larger manpower resources, worse logistics (behind the claw is a big obstacle). But neither seem to have enough will to apply what they have in the fullest, hence lots of stalemated Frontier Wars rather than ultimate resolutions. Not that stalemate is necessarily a bad thing when outbreaks in violence are relatively rare.<Can the Imperium afford that much will with the Semolina waiting in thewings for them? The Rim War was put off for years because of a Frontier War.If the Imperium started jumping into the Consulate (extending those alreadyoverextended supply lines even more) how could they get before the Solomanicould invade with impunity?Then there are the other possibilities, Hive Manipulation or Zhodani Piscineundermining the desire and will to continue fighting.Sam------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT)From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: Mercenaries>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>>on 5/16/00 12:56 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com >wrote: >> In the Traveller universe, unlike the present time, >> mercenaries don't have any ideology.  They just fight for  You replied: >Mercenaries today have ideologies? I guess that depends.   >There are plenty of examples of mercenaries today whose  >'ideology' is to get paid.  There are likewise plenty of mercenaries whose ideology is to oppose indigenous or popular movements.  This stance, at least its rhetoric, is not based on the fact that these movements can't afford them (which is generally true).  A few years ago, these guys were fervent anti-communists; check out issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine from the 1980s, for example.    - --Glenn  __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:25:14 -0400From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>Subject: Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)  Let us not forget the Travis MaGee series. They were actually pretty good and I loved the "Busted Flush" and his Rolls pickup conversion.  Thom  - ----- Original Message -----From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 2:25 AMSubject: Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)   > In mail you write: > > >> Sir James Bond, British secret agent extroidinaire (sp), has saved > >> the world countless times (although not from aliens). > > Flint was intended as a *spoof* of the Bond films, and possibly the > UNCLE TV shows. The producers of the Matt Helm stuff could never seem > to make up their minds if they wanted it to be a spoof or to play it > straight. > > -- > Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)  ------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:33:14 -0700 (PDT)From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: off line for a few days  >From: eris@pcola.gulf.net  >On 05/17/00 at 08:48 AM,  Glenn Goffin><gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:>>I'll be out of town and probably away from a computer for>>several days, so I'd appreciate it if you all would try >>not to write too much so that I don't have a big backlog  >>of digests when I get back.  Otherwise I won't get any  >>work done on Monday. >Ha! Ha! Ha!Hey, everybody, Glenn won't be able to get any >work done if we post too much....let's double our output,  >I *know* we can do it! Glenn is counting on us.  Yeah, thanks guys, I'm still only on last Thursday's posts.  Forget it.  I'll just finish this digest and then go to hapkido.  - --Glenn  __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2478On Tue, 23 May 2000, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:  > On Mon, 22 May 2000 18:02:43 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >  > >Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:59:23> >From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>> >Subject: Re: Legate Legion> >> >At 09:50 AM 5/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:> >>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>> > >>    Acutally, I'm not serious, but I do not like to be told that I am going > >>to burn in hell because I am a Highlander. >  > >A few months ago you were a "militant Jewish terrorist."  Which is it? >  > No, Kiri was never a militant Jewish terrorist - Legate was.  I'm not a Highlander either.  I'm biologically half Irish and half or a quarter (the rumors weren't specific and the adoption papers just said that my father was "unknown") Japanese or Korean-Japanese.  I look like a Meditteranean and/or Hispanic person with really white skin (my mama was VERY Irish.)  I was raised by white people in West Virginia who were really unsuited to each other and this enabled me to pretty much raise myself while they were distracted fighting.  The result is... me.  ^_^  > Kiri is merely (as if the word "merely" could ever apply to her) > someone who is Not What You Expected - even if you Don't Quite > Know What You Expected. >  Thank you!  May I put this on my web page with the correct attribution?  Kiri  =)  ****************************************************************************** Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God tiamat@tsoft.com  "If time passes, everything turns into beauty If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away Everything starts wearing fresh colors Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN  ------------------------------  Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:14:36 PST From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Subject: Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)  In mail you write:  > Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if it's big enough  > then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead.   GM: "You notice an opening on the other ship big enough to easily      accept your ship..." PC: "A Docking bay!" Gm: "No, the business end of a PAW..."- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:10:40 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: The Will to WinIn mail you write:> Douglas Berry wrote:>>>Weapons, tactics, logistics...in the end, the only category the Japanese  >>>were winners in was will.  They lost. >> >>No, we won there too.  We had the will to follow through with our attacks, >>and force the surrender on our terms or no surrender, but conquest. > > Compare American POW counts in the Phillipines with Japanese POW > counts at Tarawa and Iwo Jima.  Yes, it was a cultural thing, but the > Japanese weren't known for giving up.  Not so minor detail. The American troops on the Bataan peninsula were *ordered* to surrender. And many of the stated that if they'd had any idea that the Japanese were going to ignore the Geneva convention (never mind the *actual* treatment they got, which they couldn't have imagined) they'd have kept right on fighting.  - --  Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:17:47 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: Re H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!In mail you write:> To which Leonard responded:>>>Why does it need *any* internet capabilities? > >>All it should need is the ability to display text and graphics, and >>accept user input. Standard GUI stuff that should *not* be linking to >>any "internet" capability. > >>It'd be rather nice if it was possible to run the program under OS/2, >>if only in a "Win-OS/2" session. But use of that DLL makes that >>impossible. And before you object that you don't support other OSes, >>please note that OS/2 supports Win-32 standard up until version 1.25. >>After that MS changed the standard in a way that made it incompatible >>with low level OS/2 functions (and there's no way they *couldn't* have >>known this) > > H&E needs the internet capabilities in the generation of the HTML outputs,  Actually, "generate HTML" <> "Internet capabilities". Which is a petpeeve of mine.> and because, of course, (and this is the main reason): Because we couldn't > get what we wanted to get any other way.  "... with the tools we had".   Not a criticism, just an observation of a fact that folks tend to gloss over.   > Stuart, and may others, myself included, have worked long and hard on > this project. Stuart and I have both been involved for well over a > year. I didn't see you popping up with your ideas in that stage, did > I?  Probably because the messages I recall about it made it sound like you didn't want/need input. At least not any that I'd be able to give.   > As with quite a few others, you simply chose to wait until the > product was released and then have a snipe because it doesn't suit > your needs. Sorry. I'll tell you what: We'll spend the time learning > some obscure programming language, and some new (but old) methods, > just so we can create a port for your ZX81 or whatever it is you're > using.  Is that it? Sorry no can do.  I'm using:  An Intel P90        Novell Netware Server An AMD K6-2 200     OS/2 Warp 4 An Intel 486DX2-66  Win95 An Intel P133       (being prepped to takeover the Win 95 jobs) An Intel 486DX-33   DR-DOS 7.03 (Fidonet mailer, terminal programs) An Intel 386DX-16   DR-DOS 7.03 (Fidonet mailer, uucp link for mail/news) A Motorola 68030-?? Mac OS 7.5 (for stuff that's only available for Macs)  I do have older stuff, an I *don't* expect new stuff to work on them.   > The fact is, and I've said it before: It is freeware. Written by > Stuart, out of his own limited ability (now not so limited, > thankfully) in a language that he knew and was comfortable with > learning,  What language? VB of some sort? While I'm *not* familar with VB *specifically*, I have worked with a *lot* of dialects of BASIC. And if you folks are willing, I'd be glad to look over the source and see if there are any tricks that can be used to speed it up.  Since I date back to the days of scarce RAM and slow processors, I know a lot of "ugly" tricks for speeding up code.   And for that matter, it might not take all *that* much change to port the code to other systems. The hard part will likely be replacing functions from some of the DLLs.  Note that the offer to look for ways to speed up the code is *independent* of the desire to have it ported or try to port it myself. It's spurred by the folks commenting on how "slow" the program is. Even if it *is* doing a lot od "stuff" some of it *may* be possible to speedup.   > to his own specifications, and incorporating the requests of > those of us on the mailing lists. It is a  fine product, which runs > nicely on the machines it is designed for. Nobody promised it was > going to run on OS2 / Mac OS / Linux / Perl GCI or whatever.  On the other hand, it may be easier than you think to port part or all of it to OS/2 or the Mac.  > It is the same sort of thing that happened with my trading > spreadsheet: I was quite happy with what I'd done, and what I wanted > to share with others, and so I published it for others to use. I got > most people genuinely impressed, and constructive, but then come > along a minority saying: "It's written for Excel, why can't you write > it in DuffOffice 86 for the zircon cube processor, or some such > obscure machine/application : Microsoft is crap..".  Well, Excel can save spreadsheets in several other formats, like Lotus, and SYLK, which (unlike DIF) mostly preserve the equations and formatting. SYLK is even human readable if you know a bit about it. That would put the ball in *their* court. "Here's something you oght to be able to import, and then modify for *your* system."  > MS products are my means for making a living. I knew nothing about > PC's until 92, when I first learned DOS. I mostly skipped Windows > until 95, and only got involved in using windows applications in > 1996.  I made my first spreadsheet from scratch with the help files > in 1996-97. I'm now developing in VB and Access/ SQL server and MS > Office / Back Office applications, and doing quite well, thank you > very much.  I have no desire to learn how to program your computer > for you.  I got started with FORTRAN on an IBM 370 back in 1972. Followed by learning assembler on an ancient Honeywell "mainframe", and BASIC on an HP 3000 timesharing system. As well as RPG-II (about which the less said, the better)  One of the guys I was sharing a house with got a TRS-80 Model I in 1979. I learned that dialect of BASIC, and debugged his programs and those of the other guys in the house.   I got my own computer (A TRS-80 Model III) in late 1980. I learned assembler for it, as well as its dialect of BASIC (very similar to the Model I version). I later got a Pascal for it, but never wrote much in it because I got a *portable* computer about then (84-85), and got busy working with it.   I got involved with IBM PCs at work, and eventually was administering a LAN, maintaining some applications in dBase and Lotus, as well as a system of programs in BASIC and Pascal that collected QA data and produced QA documents that had to accompany product shipments. And I was helping folks dealing with a massive database of QA info out on the LAN. Plus being one of the 3 people supporting *all* the microcomputers in the company (400 or so).   > Stuart has been broadcasting messages about WBD / H&E for well over a > year now, and if you'd shown a bit of interest, and followed it up at > the time, you could have given us the benefit of your experience, and > we could have worked in some of your requirements. It is not the done > thing to slate it afterwards!  So far I haven't given *any* requirements, just a few preferences. Much Windows stuff *will* run under OS/2 (originally *all* of it would, but MS "fixed" that.)   > Why can't some people realise that if they are not happy with what > somebody has produced, that they get down and do it for themselves to > suit their own requirements, rather than getting involved in > irrelevant conversations. Put up, or shut up...  Since we have no idea what exactly is and isn't used in creating the app, we've got no idea how easy or hard porting it might be. Nor how hard any changes might be.  There's a difference between *asking* for changes and commenting on "shortcomings" of the program, which is what at least *I* have done,  and *demanding* changes, which I most definitely *have not* done.  > Steve Daniels (Bloo) wrote: >>Telling people to shut up or don't use your product will keep >>them away.  And you'll have no audience and no valuable >>feedback.  And that would make your efforts to date a waste. >>You owe it to yourself. > > Stuart, I think you have a right to take things like this personally, > obviously in disagreement with Steve (Bloo), since you've worked > bloody hard on this.  It doesn't matter whether he has a "right" to take it personally. Telling people that if they don't have something positive to saty they shouldn't say anything is *stupid*. It means that folks aren't going to report bugs, or ask for enhancements.   It's one thing to say "I'm tired of supporting this program". It's another to just dump it out there with no support.   > That's a significantly large market, if you ask me. Not exactly No > audience. We have plently of valuable feedback. Your efforts to date > have not been a waste..  Excuse me, but you *cannot* have *real* feedback with a "If you don't like it, shut up" rule.  - --  Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:56:39 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: Truth drugIn mail you write:>>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu>>>Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University> ...>>Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights >>expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a  >>suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some >>theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if >>you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time >>and resource limits.. > >   Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence > will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation > mind-raping Zho policies'?  Huh? It's not "mind raping". It prevents you from lying in answer to a question. It can't dig up stuff the questioner doesn't think to ask, the way a telepath can. And I'd play it as the subject not *volunteering* info. So if you don't ask the right questions you may not not get very far.  - -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2484***********************************To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:unsubscribe traveller-digestin the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail iscoming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append thataddress to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe"local-traveller":subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.netA non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; tosubscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"in the commands above with "traveller".Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2485<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
Re: Truth drug<BR>
RE: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
New Member<BR>
THUDDD 12 Update<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Bad Adventure Ideas (was: Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller)<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2484<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Will to Win<BR>
Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:39:15 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Re: James Bond! (was: America vs Europe)<BR>
<BR>
One of our cats is named for a cat in a Travis McGee novel...<BR>
<BR>
I _love_ that series; he is also a good model for an NPC... a retiered<BR>
scout lazing about on a scout-courier docked somewhere near a beach...<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Let us not forget the Travis MaGee series. They were actually pretty good<BR>
> and I loved the "Busted Flush" and his Rolls pickup conversion.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thom<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:05:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tucson vs Phoenix<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>And the Sheep or Queers remark comes from a movie (Officer and a Gentleman,<BR>
>>I think)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've got a sound clip that has a sargeant using the line "Texas!<BR>
Only steers and queers come from Texas!" and it's from "Full Metal<BR>
Jacket".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Truth Drug may be a useful tool, depending on the rights<BR>
>>> expected by the citizens.  If you can only use it on a<BR>
>>> suspect, then you need to make some progress and get some<BR>
>>> theories before you know who to use it on first.  Even if<BR>
>>> you can use it on anyone you please, you'll still have time<BR>
>>> and resource limits..<BR>
>><BR>
>>   Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence<BR>
>> will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation<BR>
>> mind-raping Zho policies'?<BR>
><BR>
> Not to mention side effects of this drug, and guaranteed there will be some.<BR>
> How will the public react when a few of those interrogated with the drug die<BR>
> from reactions, or are turned into vegetables or whatever. Especially if it<BR>
> turns out one of the victims was some innocent kid?<BR>
><BR>
> IMTU, whenever I create a new drug, I always created potential side-effects.<BR>
> A perusal of the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) can be enlightening.  Or,<BR>
> if you pay attention to those new drug ads ("may cause certain sexual<BR>
> side-effect" -- that can't be good).<BR>
<BR>
"may cause certain sexual side-effects" usually translates as "you<BR>
won't get interested as often". Having used such a drug, this is merely<BR>
annoying unless you are *really* focused on sex. <BR>
<BR>
Still, this could be interesting in a game. Assuming you've got one of<BR>
those PCs who acts like Casanova re-incarnated, having the medics treat<BR>
him with something with that sort of side effect could be rather<BR>
interesting as a role-playing challenge.<BR>
<BR>
"Not tonight girls, there's a good movie on the SV..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:38:35 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
:P   >> aiming secret BHI Penguin Cannon <<<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 12:54 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 09:10 AM 5/23/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Stuart Ferris and Jesse DeGraff are proud of their<BR>
> >contributions to the Traveller community worldwide.<BR>
> >Neither are arrogant.<BR>
> <BR>
> You've never spent nine hours in a car with Jesse. <g,d,r><BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:21:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: New Member<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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<BR>
Hi I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself.<BR>
<BR>
My name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer, =<BR>
film student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer.<BR>
<BR>
Look forward to my first messages.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV>Hi I'm just testing this works and I =<BR>
thought I'd=20<BR>
introduce myself.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>My name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional =<BR>
author,=20<BR>
lapsed script writer, film student and inveterate Traveller scenario=20<BR>
designer.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Look forward to my first =<BR>
messages.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Ben =<BR>
Aaronovitch</DIV><BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:53:01 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12 Update<BR>
<BR>
So far, I have received two THUDDD 12 entries.  Since I'm hitting the<BR>
road tomorrow for San Jose and BayCon, I'm going to extend the deadline<BR>
to 31 May 2000 for THUDDD 12 entries.  If you absolutely cannot make<BR>
that deadline, at least touch base with me by then, so that we can work<BR>
something out.<BR>
<BR>
For those of you who want to see the THUDDD 12 specifications:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/thuddd12proposal.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:56:06 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
- --------------E85884AC5C1FAE3E85C0FCFB<BR>
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<BR>
The name sounds familar...Transit?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself. My<BR>
> name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer,<BR>
> film student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer. Look forward<BR>
> to my first messages. Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
- --------------E85884AC5C1FAE3E85C0FCFB<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
The name sounds familar...Transit?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Hi<BR>
I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>My<BR>
name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer, film<BR>
student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Look<BR>
forward to my first messages.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Ben<BR>
Aaronovitch</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></blockquote><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------E85884AC5C1FAE3E85C0FCFB--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:53:54 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
On 05/23/00 at 01:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if it's big enough <BR>
>> then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead. <BR>
<BR>
>GM: "You notice an opening on the other ship big enough to easily<BR>
>     accept your ship..."<BR>
>PC: "A Docking bay!"<BR>
>Gm: "No, the business end of a PAW..."<BR>
<BR>
Exactly!  <BR>
<BR>
"Hey, Captain!  What do you think would happen if we flew right *down* that barrel?"<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:01:10 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> Hi I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself.<BR>
> <BR>
> My name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer,<BR>
> film student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer.<BR>
> <BR>
> Look forward to my first messages.<BR>
<BR>
I get to be the first to greet a newcomer !<BR>
<BR>
WELCOME !<BR>
<BR>
Hope you enjoy the stay. Right now there is a minor flamewar going on<BR>
(or, as it seems, dying out), but this is not the usual case.<BR>
<BR>
Normally, we are a lot more weird ;-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:41:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bad Adventure Ideas (was: Re: Religious Conflicts In Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 11:19 AM, Dave Pullen at david.pullen3@virgin.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Never a smart idea for an adventure. I mentioned a similarly styled<BR>
> adventure for 'The Babylon Project' once at the group I play with that I had<BR>
> found online and none of us could think of any reason for risking the lives<BR>
> of the rest of the party just for the rescue of one PC. This led to us<BR>
> recalling an off the cuff comment one player made when a PC was dragged away<BR>
> kicking and screaming to be hanged in Twilight2000: 'Oh well, I never liked<BR>
> him anyway'.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Or as we say on Regina: "Hey, it's none of my business."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:48:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 11:48 AM, Glenn Grant at neo@total.net wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Mac Port? Did you /really/ say Mac port? I would love this, I have even<BR>
>> thought about running Windoze on VPC or something, but an actual Mac version<BR>
>> would be screaming!<BR>
> <BR>
> Indeed!  How long do you think the Mac port is going to take (ballpark<BR>
> figure)?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't care to say until I look at the source.  It will depend on how<BR>
much needs to be rewritten.  I understand that the source is VB, and we'll<BR>
probably want to move to c++ and get the source in some variety of source<BR>
control.  Plus development will have to be as time allows, since this will<BR>
be another freeware effort.<BR>
<BR>
I'll let everyone know when I hear back from Stuart in a few weeks.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:55:38 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 12:09 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Some weapons are just *evil* to use given how devastating they<BR>
> are, and how their use destroys the entire local ecosystem and<BR>
> harms the biosphere in a significant manner.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Basic tenet of warfare:<BR>
<BR>
The only rule is win.  All weapons are judged according to cost/benefit.<BR>
consider mass bombing during WWII (Dresden comes to mind).  Any less<BR>
horrific than a pewee nuke?<BR>
<BR>
Sometime horrific and overwhelming force is actually preferred. Nuke two<BR>
cities in Japan, or invade with troops?  No historical hind site, please.<BR>
<BR>
And what's worse.  Nuclear weapons or biological ones? Any one for nerve<BR>
gas.  Just the thing for those pesky 'sealed' communities.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:29:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
> There are likewise plenty of mercenaries whose ideology is<BR>
> to oppose indigenous or popular movements.  This stance, at<BR>
> least its rhetoric, is not based on the fact that these<BR>
> movements can't afford them (which is generally true).  A<BR>
> few years ago, these guys were fervent anti-communists;<BR>
> check out issues of Soldier of Fortune magazine from the<BR>
> 1980s, for example.  <BR>
<BR>
This reminds of an old FGU RPG I picked up recently,<BR>
called "Merc." It was horribly written but had a few neat<BR>
ideas. (Hit locations, for example, were determined by<BR>
placing a plastic sheet over a silhouette. You compared<BR>
your die roll to the values on the sheet to find out where<BR>
you hit. It was neat.)<BR>
<BR>
What floored me, though, was the sample scenario. You<BR>
were were a mercenary in the 70s, fighting for the Rhodesian<BR>
government against the indigenous revolutionaries. Yeah, there<BR>
were a few throwaway lines about how you were protecting<BR>
Rhodesia against a Communist takeover.<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm no fan of Communism *or* the Mugabe regime <BR>
in today's Zimbabwe. But defending "White Supremacy" in<BR>
Rhodesia? Sorry, isn't part of my fantasy life. I found it all<BR>
a bit of a turn-off...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:01:46 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 5/23/00 12:09 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Some weapons are just *evil* to use given how devastating they<BR>
> > are, and how their use destroys the entire local ecosystem and<BR>
> > harms the biosphere in a significant manner.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Basic tenet of warfare:<BR>
><BR>
> The only rule is win.  All weapons are judged according to cost/benefit.<BR>
> consider mass bombing during WWII (Dresden comes to mind).  Any less<BR>
> horrific than a pewee nuke?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Can you say...serious damage to the gene pool? good, I knew you could. Yes,<BR>
fire bombing is approximately as damaging as a large "peewee" nuke but does<BR>
not have effects (apart from hate for the agressor) that linger for<BR>
generations...the effects of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki nukes are still being felt<BR>
today 50-some yars later and will probably still be felt 50 years from now.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Sometime horrific and overwhelming force is actually preferred. Nuke two<BR>
> cities in Japan, or invade with troops?  No historical hind site, please.<BR>
><BR>
> And what's worse.  Nuclear weapons or biological ones? Any one for nerve<BR>
> gas.  Just the thing for those pesky 'sealed' communities.<BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
See the arguements re:orbital colonies...sealed communities would probably<BR>
have serious amounts of detection gear against this sort of foolong with the<BR>
air supply...and would be subdivided/firewalled...a standard "atmospheric<BR>
breach" drill would probably save the majority of the population...actually<BR>
the best defence would be to sound the breach alarm and dump the air<BR>
supply...no air/no vector for bio/chem weapons...probably the same detectors<BR>
in the water supply as well. These things would probably work on<BR>
lo-tech/hi-pop planets (what would a dose of anthrax in Calcuttas water supply<BR>
do?) but if a community is completely dependant on technology there would be<BR>
safeguards and backups.<BR>
<BR>
You could try to gas the whole population at once but it probably would take<BR>
as many troops as a conventional invasion. KSR's Mars series presents an<BR>
interesting alternative to gasing the community...fix the atmosphere plant to<BR>
overboost oxygen production and leave a delayed action pyro charge or two.<BR>
IMHO I think this would only work once as the colonists were not expecting a<BR>
serious shooting war.<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:44:10 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2484<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:12:29 -0400<BR>
>From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Then there are the other possibilities, Hive Manipulation or Zhodani<BR>
Piscine<BR>
>undermining the desire and will to continue fighting.<BR>
><BR>
>Sam<BR>
<BR>
What's up with Zhodani fish that they have the ability to sap the<BR>
   "desire and will to continue fighting"? {g,d,r}<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"Now the workers have struck for fame<BR>
    cuz Lennon's on sale again." - David Bowie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:58:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:43 PM 5/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I think everyone is missing the point. The soldiers firing into the crowd <BR>
>>are your suspects. If, under Truth Drug, they say they were fired on first, <BR>
>>then you go looking for other suspects.<BR>
><BR>
> But if they honestly believed that they had been fired on, then that will<BR>
> be the "truth" for them.<BR>
<BR>
So? The fact that they *honestly beleived* that they were being fired<BR>
upon makes it self-defense *regardless* of whether or not they were<BR>
actually under fire. <BR>
<BR>
That's the way the law works. *Intent* and the *perceived*<BR>
circumstances are part of the *definition* of many crimes. *What* you<BR>
did *is* important. But *why* you did it matters too.<BR>
<BR>
> A great quote from a history channel show about the RFK killing last night:<BR>
> "I hate eye-witnesses in a murder case.  Give a case with no witnesses and<BR>
> just physical evidence."<BR>
><BR>
> So Pvt. Snuffy is given the drug and asked "were you fired on?"  Snuffy's<BR>
> brain has trnaslated several events into supporting his concept that he was<BR>
> under fire, answers "yes," with all honesty.<BR>
<BR>
Fine. He's still responsible for shooting, but he *cannot* be charged<BR>
with murder. Manslaughter, maybe. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, this sort of thing *will* vary somewhat between legal<BR>
systems, but a legal system that *doesn't* allow for what a person<BR>
*thinks* is going on isn't viable. Because you *can't* expect a person<BR>
to "really know" what is going on all the time. At best, you can go<BR>
after them because they "should have known" something. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:04:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Garda-Vilis University<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that if you give the drug to a soldier who honestly<BR>
> believes that they were firing in self defense, he will tell you this<BR>
> was the case.<BR>
><BR>
> In such a tense situation, if someone, somewhere, fires a gun, both<BR>
> sides would probably interpret it as an attack upon themselves. Who<BR>
> actually fired the first shot would be hard to find out.<BR>
<BR>
True, but that doesn't change the fact that under most legal systems,<BR>
they *are* firing in self defense if they honestly believe they are.<BR>
*Intent* and *perceived threat* are the very *definition* of that sort<BR>
of thing.<BR>
<BR>
So the fact that finding out who fired the first shot is going to be<BR>
difficult *doesn't* change the fact that every person who believes the<BR>
other side shot first is innocent. <BR>
<BR>
And it may even be the case that the person who fired first did so in<BR>
response to something he thought he heard or saw. <BR>
<BR>
Life is *not* simple. It is perfectly possible for *no one* to be at<BR>
fault, regardless of how much *both* sides want to find a scapegoat. <BR>
<BR>
Currently this is a very unpopular idea. But given Truth Drug, this<BR>
sort of thing will *have* to be accepted. The alternative is punishing<BR>
people for actions that they *cannot* have known were improper at the<BR>
time. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:50:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone know where I can find, or can they<BR>
> send me, the Atlas of The Imperium data for the<BR>
> sectors formerly done with Judge's Guild products?<BR>
> The ex-communicated sectors.  I've misplaced<BR>
> that list that someone posted a few months ago.<BR>
> I don't know which sectors these are except for<BR>
> Ley and Glimmerdrift.<BR>
<BR>
The other two were Gateway and Marantha-Alkahest.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:07:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/23/00 at 01:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if it's big<BR>
>>> enough then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead.<BR>
><BR>
>>GM: "You notice an opening on the other ship big enough to easily<BR>
>>     accept your ship..."<BR>
>>PC: "A Docking bay!"<BR>
>>Gm: "No, the business end of a PAW..."<BR>
><BR>
> Exactly!  <BR>
><BR>
> "Hey, Captain!  What do you think would happen if we flew right *down* that <BR>
> barrel?"<BR>
<BR>
"We'd die when they fired. They might have to do some repairs..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:50:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I think *all* of you are right on the issue,<BR>
on one level or another.<BR>
<BR>
Unless you can completely annihilate an enemy,<BR>
the fighting doesn't stop until one side runs away<BR>
or gives up. So you can almost always say that<BR>
the losing side lost "the will" to fight, and a side<BR>
which never loses "the will" will not lose the war<BR>
unless it is completely wiped out.<BR>
<BR>
Yet there are no people in history (or at least very<BR>
few of them) who have had an unlimited ability to<BR>
withstand punishment. Eventually, if you pound<BR>
someone enough, they're almost certain to give up.<BR>
That means that side with more, bigger &<BR>
better guns has a distinct advantage - enough<BR>
of an advantage that they can often win, even if <BR>
they have less "will" to fight.<BR>
<BR>
I don't expect to resolve this debate,<BR>
but what the hey, I thought I'd try.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:50:26 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
<BR>
At 03:53 PM 5/23/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Does anyone know where I can find, or can they<BR>
>send me, the Atlas of The Imperium data for the<BR>
>sectors formerly done with Judge's Guild products?<BR>
>The ex-communicated sectors.  I've misplaced<BR>
>that list that someone posted a few months ago.<BR>
>I don't know which sectors these are except for<BR>
>Ley and Glimmerdrift.<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
As far as 'Atlas of the Imperium' data, that is it.  The other 2 sectors of <BR>
the Gateway sector were replaced by Gateway (replaces Marantha-Alkahest <BR>
sector) and Crucis Margin.  The only source of data I know of for the other <BR>
2 sectors are the DGP dot maps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:13:59 -0500<BR>
From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@starjammer.com><BR>
Subject: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
<BR>
Kerry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:39:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
At 04:48 PM 5/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>What toilets?  I've never seen any toilets...  Kind of like most deckplans<BR>
>not having toilets...<BR>
<BR>
I think you need a re-Fresher course on reading Traveller deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
running now, bye!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2485<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2486<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: Truth drug<BR>
Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: Client States <BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
RE: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
RE: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
Re: G??kph formula<BR>
Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
Re: G<BR>
Re: G??kph formula<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Lusitania (was RE: Will to win)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:56:07 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
>From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Client States<BR>
...<BR>
>I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of the<BR>
>Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives -<BR>
<BR>
  Then your timing is at least most fortunate - you got that material<BR>
for a small fraction of what the separate LBB's would cost used!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:56:58 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Truth drug<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Truth drug<BR>
...<BR>
>>   Forgetting genuine hostiles, how many loyal Imperials of influence<BR>
>> will start foaming at the mouth at the mere thought of `imitation<BR>
>> mind-raping Zho policies'?<BR>
><BR>
>Huh? It's not "mind raping". It prevents you from lying in answer to a<BR>
>question. It can't dig up stuff the questioner doesn't think to ask,<BR>
<BR>
  `imitation mind-raping' - the same ends by different means - Imperial<BR>
society may very well be that cynical and corrupt (at least much of the<BR>
government & Fleet), but they either don't know it or won't admit it.<BR>
<BR>
>the way a telepath can. And I'd play it as the subject not<BR>
>*volunteering* info. So if you don't ask the right questions you may<BR>
>not not get very far.<BR>
<BR>
  And the Imperial security organs and mega-corp enforcers won't usually<BR>
have the experts to ask the right questions? If Imperial society wouldn't<BR>
consider that wrong/immoral (and make it illegal) then how well can they<BR>
pretend that they aren't really worse than the Zho's or SolSec - they at<BR>
least do so in the service of their respective Causes, whereas the Imps<BR>
do it solely to perpetuate the outcome of the current system?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:08:57 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Kerry Harrison wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
> thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
<BR>
There is no solid answer, since velocity under constant thrust depends<BR>
on how long the accelerating object maintains thrust.  After all, given<BR>
enough time, an object accelerating at 1-G can approach the speed of<BR>
light.<BR>
<BR>
Looking at my BFB copy of LBB2, page 26, I see that 1000 seconds of 1-G<BR>
acceleration equals a change in velocity of 10,000 km per 1000-second<BR>
combat turn.<BR>
<BR>
Alternately, IIRC, velocity achieved at 1-G acceleration can be<BR>
expressed by the following formula (using feet rather than metric<BR>
units):<BR>
<BR>
V = 32 * t^2 (where t equals time in seconds)<BR>
<BR>
Further note that the travel times listed on page 10 of LBB2 assume<BR>
turnaround and deceleration at the midpoint of the trip.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:08:35 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Client States <BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>Subject: Client States (was Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind<BR>
(kind of OT)<BR>
...<BR>
>Secondary question: Why might the Imperium prefer that a Client<BR>
>State remain so, instead of being incorporated into the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>A Client State can be used as a proxy in situations where direct<BR>
>Imperial involvement would be ill-advised or outright provocative.<BR>
><BR>
>A Client State does not impose the same sort of obligations on<BR>
>the Imperium that a Member State does - if a proxy operation goes<BR>
>badly wrong, the Imperium can disclaim all knowledge of it, and<BR>
>abandon the Client State to the consequences. A Member State must<BR>
>be protected.<BR>
<BR>
  Someone here is a little too devious for everyone else's good :)<BR>
<BR>
  Of course, most client states will have people who understand the<BR>
above, but that doesn't mean that factions and individuals can't be<BR>
co-opted, or that leaders won't know the rules. And mistakes happen...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:47:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
At 12:12 AM 5/24/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Hans, armored in this context means having a high percentage of main battle<BR>
>>tanks as an organic part of the unit.<BR>
><BR>
>I see. Yes, that makes sense, since the rules calls the symbol that marks<BR>
>the units that gets doubled in combat for the tank symbol. OK, two questions:<BR>
><BR>
>1) What is the difference between Armored Infantry and Armored Cavalry and<BR>
>   Grav Tanks? All three unit types gets the doubling in combat factor. I<BR>
>   thought 'cavalry' was the modern-day name for tank units, but if<BR>
>   armored infantry has a high percentage of main battle tanks and if there<BR>
>   is a difference between armored cavalry and grav tanks, then that is<BR>
>   obviously not the case.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller sources never make it clear.  Normally, Armored Cavalry are<BR>
extremely tank heavy units, often lacking any infantry assets whatsoever.<BR>
Armored Infantry is the old term for US Mechanized Infantry.<BR>
<BR>
For Ground Forces, a Cavalry Division is one with four Grav tank brigades,<BR>
an Armored Infantry Division has two lift infantry, and two grav tank<BR>
brigades.<BR>
<BR>
Grav tanks just refers to the fake that these are CG equipped.<BR>
<BR>
>2) Since marine regiments are not significantly better than other TL 15<BR>
>   troops (I checked the descriptions of the 4518th in JTAS9 and marine<BR>
>   regiments in JTAS12 and they have roughly the same number of people),<BR>
>   does that mean that Battle Dresses are pretty useless or that all other<BR>
>   TL 15 troops use them too?<BR>
<BR>
Canonically, TL 15 infantry can be issued battle dress and fusion weapons,<BR>
and the Imperial Army Rapid Interface troops do get that level of protection.<BR>
<BR>
>>They are also able to reach the surface with active SDBs in the system.<BR>
><BR>
>Eh? Wouldn't that depend on the Navy force that carried them? Or do you<BR>
>mean that they are equipped to get from orbit to ground in the face of<BR>
>hostile SDBs? In any case, I don't quite understand what that has to do<BR>
>with their relative combat strength.<BR>
<BR>
In FFW, Marines can move to the world box even with active SDBs in the<BR>
system. They are drop troops, which makes them very valuable.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:50:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
At 11:36 PM 5/23/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I couldn't  read this properly because you're posting HTML. Any <BR>
>chance of a resend?<BR>
<BR>
I didn't see it at all, since it was just saved as an attachment.  No HTML<BR>
folks, this is a text medium.  ASCII was good enough for my ancestors, it's<BR>
good enough for me.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:59:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 07:04 PM 5/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>They tried to surrender and were refused because American extremists<BR>
>demanded vengeance and an unconditional surrender.<BR>
<BR>
They used American prisoners of war for *BAYONET PRACTICE*  They were damn<BR>
lucky that CNN wasn't around when we started getting our prisoners back, or<BR>
you might still be unable to set foot on the glowing remnats of Japan.<BR>
<BR>
Ever read the conditions?  No war crimes trials, no restitutions, they get<BR>
to keep what ever they were holding at the end of the war...  No.  The<BR>
Japanese Empire started the war with sneak attacks on American and British<BR>
forces, and spent four years behaving like monsters.  They were given two<BR>
choices: surrender on our terms, or the war continues.<BR>
<BR>
>>If you ever make it to Hawaii, might I suggest a trip out to the USS<BR>
>Arizona memorial?<<BR>
><BR>
>No.<BR>
<BR>
About what I figured. This conversation is over.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:15:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
Welcome and<BR>
May God have mercy on you<BR>
for none here will.<BR>
<BR>
(Glad you've joined)<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton=20<BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV>Welcome and</DIV><BR>
<DIV>May God have mercy on you</DIV><BR>
<DIV>for none here will.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>(Glad you've joined)</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
<A=20href=3D"mailto:pconn@i1.net">pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how =to=20dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips =of=20Rome</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BFC515.34E3E980--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:20:56 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Matt Wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Frankly, I think *all* of you are right on the issue,<BR>
> on one level or another.<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless you can completely annihilate an enemy,<BR>
> the fighting doesn't stop until one side runs away<BR>
> or gives up. So you can almost always say that<BR>
> the losing side lost "the will" to fight, and a side<BR>
> which never loses "the will" will not lose the war<BR>
> unless it is completely wiped out.<BR>
<BR>
The way I was taught in international relations classes is that there <BR>
exist a point were negotiations  are possible.  One side has to have <BR>
decide that any more aggression will not gain them anything.  At <BR>
the sometime the other side must fear losing more.<BR>
<BR>
The key is the first side must fear losing more then it gains.  This <BR>
is what happened in WWI with Russia.  Though Germany was <BR>
stomping all over Russia, it realized it could not take the whole <BR>
thing, and need the resources in the west.  Also in the west the <BR>
allies agreed to peace because they couldn't bleed any more, and <BR>
total victory was not worth the fight.<BR>
<BR>
While in WWII the allies wanted total victory.  It seems to me they <BR>
had just about enough of German aggression. Then the holocaust <BR>
and other real war crimes/ not civilian deaths came to light, so they <BR>
where angry. With Japan it was anger, and economic reasons.  <BR>
Anger after Pearl Harbour and the realization after 1943 that we <BR>
were going to win drove most of the war.  Economically before the <BR>
war Japan was growing and we needed to stop them thats why <BR>
FFD did everything he did.  All of this kept the allies fighting even <BR>
after victory could have occurred without total victory.<BR>
<BR>
Now about war crimes.  <BR>
<BR>
There is a difference between war crimes and civilian death.  <BR>
Regardless of what goes on in a war civilians die, it may even <BR>
better if they do die (I am not sick) it makes the cost of war <BR>
greater, thus ends thewar quicker.  If more US citizens had died we <BR>
might have ended the WWII earlier. Also this applies to <BR>
conventional war not guerilla or terrorist warfare<BR>
<BR>
War crimes are intentional attacks on a civilian population to kill it <BR>
period.  Or a violation of the Geneva Laws on conduct, by the way <BR>
this is the only true war crime that I know of.<BR>
<BR>
So the holocaust and Batan (sp) Death March are war crimes <BR>
<BR>
Bombing a bridge while a civilian drives across it is not. Nor  fire <BR>
bombings or nukes.<BR>
<BR>
Civilians /soldiers die in war not Cultures/Civilizations.<BR>
<BR>
OT<BR>
<BR>
This maches the idea about the Frontier Wars.   Neither side sees <BR>
total victory as worth the cost of total war, so they fight small <BR>
boarder clashes.  It seems the true winners/losers will always be <BR>
the small independent states like the Sword Worlds.  They have to <BR>
side with one side of the other. To them it means the winning or <BR>
losing of a few worlds, this can make or break them, unlike the two <BR>
giants that can lose/gain subsectors.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:16:46 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Kerry Harrison schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
> thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
<BR>
One G is 9.81 (roghly 10) meters per second per second. That is,<BR>
accellerationg at one G means increasing your speed by roughly ten<BR>
meters per second in one second.<BR>
<BR>
HTH,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:11:51 -0700<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 23 May 2000 19:04:31 -0400, samwise1 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >No, it was warfare.  We didn't want in the fight, but were dragged in.  So<BR>
> we are not going to pussy-foot around and play by some polite set of rules<BR>
> that went out a century earlier.<<BR>
> <BR>
> So then there was nothing wrong with the Germans sinking the Lusitania which<BR>
> was less than a century ago? Or are you referring to the Geneva Convention<BR>
> rules on POWs that the Japanese violated to such outrage and execution<BR>
> during war crimes trials? Which rules were OK to ignore?<BR>
<BR>
Uh, yeah.  I'd like an answer to this one.  Doug, I know you are very<BR>
patriotic, but in this debate, that patriotism is starting to reek of a<BR>
certain bias.<BR>
<BR>
History is written by the victors.  The events of the past are reinforced<BR>
by the victor's POV.  What are defined as war crimes are often defined by<BR>
the victor.  The victor never suffers retribution for any war crimes they--<BR>
in God's eyes-- are guilty of.  The Axis were inhuman monsters.  Hollywood<BR>
said so.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
(((((This tagline in Stereo where available)))))<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:11:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
> I didn't see it at all, since it was just saved as an attachment.  No HTML<BR>
> folks, this is a text medium.  ASCII was good enough for my<BR>
> ancestors, it's<BR>
> good enough for me.<BR>
<BR>
You know that you have been involved with standards bodies way too long when<BR>
your first thought is something like, "Hey, ASNI Standard X3.4 wasn't even<BR>
written until 1968. You must have young ancestors." These days, the X9 group<BR>
is where all of the fun is, of course.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:19:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/23/00 at 01:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if<BR>
> it's big enough<BR>
> >> then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead.<BR>
><BR>
> >GM: "You notice an opening on the other ship big enough to easily<BR>
> >     accept your ship..."<BR>
> >PC: "A Docking bay!"<BR>
> >Gm: "No, the business end of a PAW..."<BR>
><BR>
> Exactly!<BR>
><BR>
> "Hey, Captain!  What do you think would happen if we flew right<BR>
> *down* that barrel?"<BR>
<BR>
This was standard tactics for our Solomani fighter squadron Mad Mike's<BR>
Maruaders, during the formation of the Rule of Man.<BR>
<BR>
"Fly straight into the spinal meson mount guys, it's the least-defended<BR>
surface area of the ship, and they won't refocus the meson to take us out,<BR>
it'll be too busy targetting the capital ships !"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:29:58 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: G??kph formula<BR>
<BR>
On 05/23/00 at 11:13 PM,  Kerry Harrison <kerry@starjammer.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
>thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
<BR>
Velocity = Acceleration x Time<BR>
<BR>
In a vacuum, the top end velocity will approach the speed of light even at a very low acceleration (fractions of a G) given enough time.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:22:50 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Excommunicated Sectors<BR>
<BR>
I think I may have found them.  Buried on my<BR>
system I found something called The Consolidated<BR>
Traveller Region Name List ver.3.1 (by Steve<BR>
Bonneville, 1996)<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea where I got this, but with it is data<BR>
on all the sectors every published.  Notably, it<BR>
does NOT use the JG data for Ley and Glimmerdrift.<BR>
A lot of system names are absent for these sectors.<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone verify for me this is the data from Atlas of<BR>
the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
Ley Sector, first three systems:<BR>
(no name)   0101 A545403-C  N Ni              A  404 Im K8 D<BR>
(no name)   0102 D235515-4    Ni                 312 Im K1 V<BR>
Lousanne   0107 C564977-5    Hi                 700 Im F1 V M9 D<BR>
<BR>
Glimmerdrift, first three systems:<BR>
(no name)   0105 C596444-7    Ni                 923 Na K4 V M4 D<BR>
(no name)   0206 E335215-5    Ni                 720 Cs K2 V<BR>
Aluudi        0703 A334965-G    Hi                 114 Na K0 V<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone know where I can find, or can they<BR>
> send me, the Atlas of The Imperium data for the<BR>
> sectors formerly done with Judge's Guild products?<BR>
> The ex-communicated sectors.  I've misplaced<BR>
> that list that someone posted a few months ago.<BR>
> I don't know which sectors these are except for<BR>
> Ley and Glimmerdrift.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:47:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: G<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 9:13 PM, Kerry Harrison at kerry@starjammer.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
> thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
> <BR>
> Kerry<BR>
> <BR>
Please not that G is acceleration, usually meaning 9.8 m/s^2.  You could<BR>
calculate velocity only as a function of time.  Assuming constant<BR>
acceleration:<BR>
<BR>
Basic Physics<BR>
<BR>
Velocity = initial velocity + 1/2 acceleration * time^2<BR>
<BR>
make sure you use correct units (i.e meters, seconds)<BR>
<BR>
Thrust is a measure of force, measured in lbs or newtons (Kg M/s^2) usually.<BR>
<BR>
Force= mass*acceleration<BR>
<BR>
or<BR>
<BR>
Force/Mass= Acceleration<BR>
<BR>
Hope that helps<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:55:27 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: G??kph formula<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 11:29 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/23/00 at 11:13 PM,  Kerry Harrison <kerry@starjammer.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
>> thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
> <BR>
> Velocity = Acceleration x Time<BR>
> <BR>
> In a vacuum, the top end velocity will approach the speed of light even at a<BR>
> very low acceleration (fractions of a G) given enough time.<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Remenbering, of course, that mass increases with velocity<BR>
<BR>
The approach to C is an asymtotic curve.  As an object approaches C, its<BR>
mass approaches infinity, thus requiring a near infinite force to accelerate<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
oops, no C.<BR>
Don't you just hate relativity.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:09:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
on 5/23/00 8:01 PM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can you say...serious damage to the gene pool? good, I knew you could.<BR>
<BR>
Just to play devil's advocate-- hey, they're not my genes.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> See the arguements re:orbital colonies...sealed communities would probably<BR>
> have serious amounts of detection gear against this sort of foolong with the<BR>
> air supply...and would be subdivided/firewalled...a standard "atmospheric<BR>
> breach" drill would probably save the majority of the population...actually<BR>
> the best defence would be to sound the breach alarm and dump the air<BR>
> supply...no air/no vector for bio/chem weapons...probably the same detectors<BR>
> in the water supply as well. These things would probably work on<BR>
> lo-tech/hi-pop planets (what would a dose of anthrax in Calcuttas water supply<BR>
> do?) but if a community is completely dependant on technology there would be<BR>
> safeguards and backups.<BR>
<BR>
A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly if it<BR>
is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very lethal, with a<BR>
contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By the time you know it's<BR>
there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize the facility you want, too.  No<BR>
survivors equals no vector.<BR>
<BR>
Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it tends to<BR>
kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere (good thing!).<BR>
Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:26:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Lusitania (was RE: Will to win)<BR>
<BR>
C'mon people, if you're going to talk about the Lusitania, at least get the<BR>
"ducks lined up".<BR>
<BR>
<Doug Berry and samwise have gone back and forth about the nature of the<BR>
Lusitania><BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, the truth is not nearly as clear-cut as either of you have<BR>
attempted to make the sinking of the Lusitania out to be. Simply put, there<BR>
were no international rules of naval warfare which both sides observed, and<BR>
rules are only rules if they are actually observed. In January, a few months<BR>
before the Lusitania was sunk, she abused the neutral status of the U.S. by<BR>
flying the U.S. flag despite the fact that she was a British vessel. This<BR>
made the news and was a significant factor in Germany's "illegal" decision<BR>
to label the waters around Britain a "war zone" where they could sink any<BR>
ship with impunity, an announcement which would be made a month later. There<BR>
were many other factors: the "illegal" declaration by the British that the<BR>
entire North Sea was a "war zone", and the subsequent mining of that sea, as<BR>
well as the British use of Q-Ships disguised as neutral merchantmen and so<BR>
on.<BR>
<BR>
The real issue was that U-Boats were quite vulnerable to ramming by merchant<BR>
ships. The shots fired from the smaller caliber guns which were common<BR>
armament on merchant ships were also deadly to the U-Boats. Germany's naval<BR>
policy, basically "shoot first, ask questions later", stemmed from the fact<BR>
that the U-Boats were the only weapon they could use against merchant ships.<BR>
In short, the existing laws concerning naval warfare were outmoded and as a<BR>
result, they were ignored and abused at various times.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And the Germans had also taken out ads in the papers warning Americans not<BR>
>to get on the Lusitania because it would be sunk. The Germans offered<BR>
plenty<BR>
>of warning that the Lusitania, which they knew was loaded with munitions<BR>
>against the current rules of warfare (thanks to guys like Churchill) and<BR>
>gunned, was going to be sunk as a belligerent vessel.<BR>
<BR>
This is largely misunderstood. There were ads taken out on the day that the<BR>
Lusitania set off across the Atlantic. They were in a newspaper which<BR>
appeared just a few short hours before the Lusitania left port, and there's<BR>
still a good deal of dispute about who put them there. I guess it's a moot<BR>
point anyway, as long before the passengers bought their tickets it was big<BR>
news that the Germans had taken the "leashes" off of their U-Boats.<BR>
<BR>
However, there's another factor to consider. In the time between February<BR>
and May a very small percentage of ships sent across the Atlantic were sunk.<BR>
The U-Boat fleet at that point was rather small, and the Germans had never<BR>
actually downed a passenger liner before. A somewhat fair comparison to this<BR>
scenario would be the heyday of Islamic terrorism in the 1970s and 1980s.<BR>
I'm sure that a number of people on this list flew on airplanes in the 1970s<BR>
and 1980s despite the ever-present possibility of hijacking or the explosion<BR>
of a terrorist bomb and the frequent warnings of terrorism by extremists.<BR>
<BR>
As far as the munitions on board go, the "rules of warfare" didn't really<BR>
apply, as there effectively were none. Munitions were contraband, and could<BR>
be seized or could provide justification for blowing the ship up. The years<BR>
1914 and 1915 were marked by a good deal of correspondence between the<BR>
various nations concerning what naval warfare should look like and what the<BR>
rights of merchant vessels were. The only laws which really applied to the<BR>
cargo the Lusitania *could* carry were American laws, and the American laws<BR>
on munitions were geared towards the safety of the passengers. The munitions<BR>
carried on the Lusitania (rifle cartridges and unfilled shrapnel shells)<BR>
were declared by the U.S. government to be non-explosive in bulk, and hence<BR>
were cleared for loading onto the Cunard ship.<BR>
<BR>
There's always the recurring theory of a "secret cargo" of high explosive<BR>
materials put on board the Lusitania, supported by the fact that there were<BR>
two explosions (which sank the large ship in an unprecedented 20 minutes),<BR>
but the U-Boat's log book showed only one torpedo fired. Dr. Robert<BR>
Ballard's dives in the early 1990s found evidence consistent with a coal<BR>
dust explosion. Due to the fact that Dr. Ballard is an acknowledged expert<BR>
on the subject of sunken ships and their causes, and made a series of dives,<BR>
current scholarship leans towards this explanation.<BR>
<BR>
As to the Lusitania being armed, as far as I remember, she didn't even have<BR>
the defensive armament common (and legal) on merchantmen of the day. I may<BR>
be wrong on that though. In addition, Ballard's dives found no evidence of<BR>
the large hidden guns which Colin Simpson (and those people quoting him or<BR>
using him as a source) claimed were there.<BR>
<BR>
>The Brits made it a belligerent and hid behind civilians, including<BR>
Americans,<BR>
>in an attempt to 1) sneak in munitions hoping the Germans wouldn't dare to<BR>
attack<BR>
>civilians, and<BR>
<BR>
Nobody was really sneaking around. It was common practice to ship munitions<BR>
which were "non-explosive in bulk" on passenger ships. Such things would<BR>
surely have also been shipped on German passenger liners. The only snag was<BR>
that the German passenger liners docked in American ports had ceased<BR>
operations upon realizing that leaving neutral territory meant that they<BR>
would certainly be captured by British warships. Similarly, if Germany had<BR>
an effective surface navy in May of 1915, they most likely wouldn't have<BR>
need to torpedo merchantmen.<BR>
<BR>
>2) if sunk, generate an outrage that would bring the US into the war.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. As of the time the Lusitania headed across the Atlantic, the<BR>
British thought that they had everything well in hand. The British were<BR>
winning on the ocean as their blockade was incredibly effective (much more<BR>
effective than Germany's). As far as the land war went, the Russians were<BR>
still in the game, and the French were doing pretty well too. The<BR>
meatgrinder wasn't yet turning in earnest on the Western front.<BR>
<BR>
>Unfortunately for the Brits, the sinking of the Lusitania wasn't enough and<BR>
>they would wait another 2 years for the Americans to show up.<BR>
<BR>
It's a moot point. America wasn't ready for war in terms of manpower and<BR>
materials anyway, and wouldn't be until at least 1916 when the economy would<BR>
really begin to take off. America had just been through a depression (no,<BR>
I'm not confusing things with World War II here, there was a depression in<BR>
the U.S. around 1914, and it was a significant one). Interestingly enough,<BR>
American relations with the Allies actually took a turn for the worse over<BR>
the next year.<BR>
<BR>
While the sinking of the Lusitania didn't bring American troops, foaming at<BR>
the mouth, to the shores of Europe, it virtually guaranteed that America<BR>
would not ally with the Central Powers. It was also excellent ammunition for<BR>
the various groups in the U.S. who wanted a U.S. alliance with Britain.<BR>
<BR>
Even so, I don't buy into the conspiracy theories about Britain trying to<BR>
lure the U.S. into the war using the Lusitania as a sacrifice. They would<BR>
have to know that the Captain of the Lusitania would run into fog and be<BR>
forced to slow down. Then, they would have to know that the Lusitania would<BR>
just happen to expose herself to a German U-Boat which just happened to be<BR>
heading back to resupply, which just happened to be commanded by a man who<BR>
was infamous for not being too picky about his targets. They would have also<BR>
needed to know, in advance, that the Lusitania would ignore warnings of<BR>
submarine activity in the area. They would also have needed to know that the<BR>
single torpedo which the German U-Boat would launch would touch off a<BR>
massive explosion which would cause the ship to sink abnormally quickly,<BR>
ensuring a high cost in human lives.<BR>
<BR>
There are way too many loose ends there for my tastes.<BR>
<BR>
>The Germans were at war with the British and laboring under a crippling<BR>
>blockade (that blocked ships from neutral ports) that also targeted, or<BR>
even<BR>
>primarily targeted, civilians.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. That was certainly the case. The Allies and the Central Powers were<BR>
fighting a new kind of war, a *total* war, with new weapons and new tactics.<BR>
The old rules and laws, which attempted to limit civilian casualties, were<BR>
no longer in existence. Just a little over 20 years later, the situation for<BR>
civilians would get even worse.<BR>
<BR>
The one lesson that the Great War taught the world was that really big wars<BR>
really suck for everybody, all around, and that our weapons had advanced to<BR>
the point where the nice polite "gentleman's wars" of 19th century Europe<BR>
were forever gone.<BR>
<BR>
>Why should the US get the benefit of the<BR>
>doubt about unrestricted sub warfare because we were at war and the Germans<BR>
>not? Because civilians were dumb enough to get on the Lusitania despite<BR>
>plenty of warnings?<BR>
<BR>
The U.S. and Britain get the benefit of the doubt by default. The weapons<BR>
Germany was able to employ in the Atlantic were such that their only truly<BR>
effective use resulted in more obvious fatalities and damages to merchant<BR>
shipping and civilians.<BR>
<BR>
>War generates lots of 'justifications' for things that aren't necessarily<BR>
>just. It always has, and probably always will. But any standard we use<BR>
>should be applied equally.<BR>
<BR>
<shrug> The Great War generated a lot of dead bodies. Trying to impose or<BR>
imagine some sense of "justice" over 80 years after the fact seems bizarre,<BR>
to say the least. Where would such finger pointing, equitable or not, get us<BR>
exactly? I suppose we could feel a smug sense of moral superiority over the<BR>
dead.<BR>
<BR>
[In this post I've made reference to two men, Colin Simpson and Dr. Robert<BR>
Ballard. Simpson, a British reporter, wrote a sensationalized account of the<BR>
Lusitania sinking in 1972, in the midst of a particularly dark period when<BR>
lurid popular histories, full of conspiracy theories, were extremely common.<BR>
He advanced a series of theories which seemed plausible at the time. A few<BR>
of his more popular theories hinge on unnamed sources, evidence which has<BR>
never been viewed by others and what would appear to be outright<BR>
fabrications. Dr. Robert Ballard discovered the Titanic and the Yorktown,<BR>
and has also explored quite a number of sunken ships.]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2486<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2487<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Mercenaries<BR>
Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
OT: Flame warriors (FUN!)<BR>
Re: Computer personalities<BR>
Re: G??kph formula<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: History<BR>
RE: Client States<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
RE: New Member<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:49:17 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> At 07:04 PM 5/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >They tried to surrender and were refused because American extremists<BR>
> >demanded vengeance and an unconditional surrender.<BR>
> <BR>
> They used American prisoners of war for *BAYONET PRACTICE*  They were<BR>
> damn lucky that CNN wasn't around when we started getting our<BR>
> prisoners back, or you might still be unable to set foot on the<BR>
> glowing remnats of Japan.<BR>
<BR>
Very true, and what they did to the Chinese in Manchuria was even <BR>
worse.<BR>
 <BR>
> Ever read the conditions?  No war crimes trials, no restitutions, they<BR>
> get to keep what ever they were holding at the end of the war...  No. <BR>
> The Japanese Empire started the war with sneak attacks on American and<BR>
> British forces, and spent four years behaving like monsters.  They<BR>
> were given two choices: surrender on our terms, or the war continues.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned <BR>
us.  The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing <BR>
this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was <BR>
purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to <BR>
war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to <BR>
believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.  <BR>
<BR>
In any case, in spite of what else they did, the Japanese did not <BR>
attempt to perform a sneak attack.  Also, horrific as it may be, <BR>
they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their <BR>
own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to <BR>
be treated the same way.   <BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 02:01:53 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly<BR>
> if it is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very<BR>
> lethal, with a contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By<BR>
> the time you know it's there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize<BR>
> the facility you want, too.  No survivors equals no vector.<BR>
> <BR>
> Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it<BR>
> tends to kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere<BR>
> (good thing!). Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
<BR>
Then you'll be as or more evil to win???  That's exactly the sort of <BR>
ends-justify-the-means thinking that leads to all manner of horrors.<BR>
<BR>
I'm reminded of a short story I read *many* years ago, where the <BR>
Soviets nuked the US and most of our half of the world and the <BR>
response by the (very) few dying survivors (who had been attacked <BR>
too suddenly to launch a counter attack) was they they would die <BR>
with their missiles unlaunched since if they did that at least a <BR>
portion of humanity would survive.  A counterattack would have <BR>
toasted the Soviets and their portion of the world as badly as their <BR>
attack toasted the other half and likely made humanity extinct.  <BR>
<BR>
Such a decision fits my definition of true heroism and honorable <BR>
action, sinking to the level of your opponents is best outgrown in <BR>
grade school.  Btw, anyone here remember the name or author of <BR>
this story?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John SNead snead sneadj@mindspring.com   <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:00:10 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>     Something I have been thinking about for Traveller is an old idea.<BR>
> Trading Coastals or Trading Cartels, or basicly you own a merchant ship &<BR>
> you are part of a large co-op of other small ship owners.  This basicly<BR>
> started when my F2F started a new campaign (using CT for BG, MT for the<BR>
main<BR>
> rules, & TNE for other rules), & I had 4 people playing Merchants & they<BR>
all<BR>
> got Free Traders, 2 Scouts both with Scoutships, & 1 Noble with a Yacht.<BR>
As<BR>
> well as a Naval Captain who has a Patrol Cruiser.  How can you run a game<BR>
> where you have 8 Ships in it?  Trade Cartel, was the thought that came<BR>
back.<BR>
<BR>
Everything you say makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, I'd take it further - each of the 'Merchants Co-op' kicks in Cr 5<BR>
000 a month, and the Co-op uses that money to lease warehouse space and an<BR>
office and put a broker on retainer on each world.<BR>
<BR>
They also pool their profits, and as they can buy up their mortgages, so<BR>
that they are paying themselves rather than a bank.<BR>
<BR>
The question is therefore 'why doesnt it always happen this way ?'.<BR>
<BR>
The first answer is that the Free Trader model we all know and love just<BR>
isnt viable for most market niches. Long distance trade by Free Traders is<BR>
viable in my opinion (there is unlikely to be another load of Tarsus Wine<BR>
going to Mora to compete with yours), but short-haul work is going to be<BR>
dominated by corporate concerns (why should we ship with you, rather than<BR>
with someone who has an office on the planet, and will still be there next<BR>
year ?). If you are a colony or asteroid bases' sole trading ship, then sure<BR>
(you need to get a balance of cargos over a year, so you cant just go to and<BR>
from the same small set of worlds).<BR>
<BR>
The second answer is that Free Traders do usually club together in such a<BR>
way. It may not be formal, but one thing the GURPS mechanics encourage is a<BR>
web of Contacts and Allies.<BR>
<BR>
The third answer is that what you are describing is very Canon - Merchant<BR>
Prince mentions the Fledgeling Line UTP as being five Free Trader ships that<BR>
agreed to work together.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say it's a good way of linking PCs into something a bit beyond a single<BR>
ship campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Good thinking and a good post :)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:21:55 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 5/23/00 8:01 PM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Can you say...serious damage to the gene pool? good, I knew you could.<BR>
><BR>
> Just to play devil's advocate-- hey, they're not my genes.<BR>
> >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > See the arguements re:orbital colonies...sealed communities would probably<BR>
> > have serious amounts of detection gear against this sort of foolong with the<BR>
> > air supply...and would be subdivided/firewalled...a standard "atmospheric<BR>
> > breach" drill would probably save the majority of the population...actually<BR>
> > the best defence would be to sound the breach alarm and dump the air<BR>
> > supply...no air/no vector for bio/chem weapons...probably the same detectors<BR>
> > in the water supply as well. These things would probably work on<BR>
> > lo-tech/hi-pop planets (what would a dose of anthrax in Calcuttas water supply<BR>
> > do?) but if a community is completely dependant on technology there would be<BR>
> > safeguards and backups.<BR>
><BR>
> A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly if it<BR>
> is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very lethal, with a<BR>
> contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By the time you know it's<BR>
> there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize the facility you want, too.  No<BR>
> survivors equals no vector.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is what the current population of Trinity think happened to cause the plague<BR>
year...2/3 to 3/4 of the planetary population died in a two week period...millions<BR>
more soon after...almost as bad as 'Virus'. Trinity was  (and still is) a collection<BR>
of domed cities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it tends to<BR>
> kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere (good thing!).<BR>
> Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ebola. Airbourne varient (thought of it waaaayy before Mr. Clancy)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:01:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mercenaries<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> What floored me, though, was the sample scenario. You<BR>
> were were a mercenary in the 70s, fighting for the Rhodesian<BR>
> government against the indigenous revolutionaries. Yeah, there<BR>
> were a few throwaway lines about how you were protecting<BR>
> Rhodesia against a Communist takeover.<BR>
><BR>
> Now I'm no fan of Communism *or* the Mugabe regime <BR>
> in today's Zimbabwe. But defending "White Supremacy" in<BR>
> Rhodesia? Sorry, isn't part of my fantasy life. I found it all<BR>
> a bit of a turn-off...<BR>
<BR>
I remember some stuff from back then. Mostly because my mom was very<BR>
interested in some folks involved with support for Rhodesia. And even<BR>
allowing for bias, I suspect the situation wasn't *nearly* that<BR>
one-sided. Nor were the wites "supreme" in the same sort of way that<BR>
South Africa was.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 02:05:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Is there a formula to calculate what just how fast (in kph) each G of<BR>
> thrust is in a vacuum/deep space?  If so could someone please tell me?<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't work that way. <BR>
<BR>
Gs are a measurement of *acceleration*. That's is, the *rate* at which<BR>
your velocity is *changing*. <BR>
<BR>
V = A * T<BR>
V = velocity<BR>
A = acceleration<BR>
T = time<BR>
<BR>
All of the above have to be in the *same* units. For instance, time in<BR>
seconds (s), velocity in meters per second (m/s), and acceleration in<BR>
meters per second per second (m/s^2). 1 m/s = 3.6 km/hr<BR>
<BR>
1 g is about 9.8 m/s. In Traveller this frequently gets rounded off to<BR>
10 m/s. <BR>
<BR>
So here are the velocities of a ship bossting at 1g at various times.<BR>
All velocities are relative to the starting point.<BR>
<BR>
        velocity     velocity<BR>
time	(A=9.8)      (A=10)<BR>
- ----	-----------  --------<BR>
1 s	  9.8 m/s     10 m/s<BR>
10 s     98 m/s      100 m/s<BR>
1 min	588 m/s      600 m/s<BR>
100 s   980 m/s        1 km/s<BR>
1 ks      9.8 km/s    10 km/s <BR>
1 hr     35.28 km/s   36 km/s<BR>
10 ks    98 km/s     100 km/s      <BR>
1 day   846.72 km/s  864 km/s<BR>
100 ks  980 km/s     1e3 km/s<BR>
<BR>
ks = kilosecond (1000 seconds)<BR>
Xe3 = X times 10 to the third power <BR>
<BR>
Distances are figured using:<BR>
<BR>
D = .5 * A * T^2<BR>
D = distance<BR>
<BR>
        distance     distance<BR>
time	(A=9.8)      (A=10)<BR>
- ----	-----------  --------<BR>
1 s	  4.90 m     5.00 m<BR>
10 s      4.90e2 m   5.00e2 m<BR>
1 min	  1.76e4 m   1.80e4 m<BR>
100 s     4.90e4 m   5.00e4 m<BR>
1 ks      4.90e6 m   5.00e6 m<BR>
1 hr      6.35e7 m   6.48e7 m<BR>
10 ks     4.90e8 m   5.00e8 m<BR>
1 day     3.66e10 m  3.73e10 m<BR>
100 ks    4.90e10 m  5.00e10 m<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 02:59:39 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> 2) Since marine regiments are not significantly better than other TL 15<BR>
>    troops (I checked the descriptions of the 4518th in JTAS9 and marine<BR>
>    regiments in JTAS12 and they have roughly the same number of people),<BR>
>    does that mean that Battle Dresses are pretty useless or that all other<BR>
>    TL 15 troops use them too?<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively it could mean that both the 4518th and all<BR>
Marine Regiments (or at least all 5FW Marine Regiments) are<BR>
at a similar high level of quality and are equally well equipped.<BR>
Other TL F Regiments might be inferior.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:11:51 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: OT: Flame warriors (FUN!)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:20:09 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer personalities<BR>
<BR>
Penguinboy wrote:<BR>
> I think you need a re-Fresher course on reading Traveller deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
What he is actually trying to say is that Fresher = Toilet/Washroom<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:25:23 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: G??kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Remenbering, of course, that mass increases with velocity<BR>
> <BR>
> The approach to C is an asymtotic curve.  As an object approaches C, its<BR>
> mass approaches infinity, thus requiring a near infinite force to accelerate<BR>
> it.<BR>
<BR>
The standard rule-of-thumb in physics is to begin taking this into<BR>
account when speeds are around 10% of the speed of light. Therefore, it<BR>
is generally not important in Traveller (unless you are designing<BR>
sub-light colony ships).<BR>
<BR>
> oops, no C.<BR>
> Don't you just hate relativity.<BR>
<BR>
No.   :-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:28:36 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> I didn't see it at all, since it was just saved as an attachment.  No HTML<BR>
> folks, this is a text medium.  ASCII was good enough for my ancestors, it's<BR>
> good enough for me.<BR>
<BR>
Your ancestors had ASCII?<BR>
<BR>
*My* ancestors had to carve runes into large slabs of stone and leave<BR>
them standing around the countryside.<BR>
<BR>
Laptop? You wouldn't have dared to dream of such a thing...<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:24:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Sheesh, you folks are no help at all!  First of all, several of you made<BR>
the mistake of giving this guy the distance formula D=.5A*T^2.  What he<BR>
asked for was velocity, which is simply V=AT.  That is, velocity in<BR>
meters/second equals acceleration (in meters/second per second) times time<BR>
(in seconds). <BR>
<BR>
The short answer to the original question is:<BR>
 velocity in kph equals Gs times time (in seconds) times 3.6  OR<BR>
 Vk = Ag * T * 36<BR>
<BR>
For example, accelerating at 1g for 100 seconds, we get<BR>
<BR>
Vk = 1 * 100 * 36 = 3600 kph<BR>
<BR>
Verifying with the traditional formula:<BR>
V = 10 * 100 = 1000 m/s = 3600 kph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Example 2: accelerating at 2g for 1000 seconds, we get<BR>
<BR>
Vk = 2 * 1000 * 36 = 72000 kph<BR>
<BR>
Again, verifying:<BR>
V = AT = 20 * 1000 = 20000 m/s = 72000 kph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
(now watch this, now that I've been all snooty about it, someone's going<BR>
to show how wrong I am :-) <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 08:49:48 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: History<BR>
<BR>
<< History is written by the victors. >><BR>
<BR>
Like Flavius Josephus.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry -- couldn't help it.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:36:35 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Client States<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff writes:<BR>
>I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of the<BR>
>Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives - so<BR>
>don't flame me if this is canonically incorrect, but:<BR>
<BR>
	Welcome!  Don't worry too much about the canon thing.<BR>
	Canon is a good place to start, but there are lots of<BR>
	us who have moved a long way from it.<BR>
<BR>
>Could it be that some client states don't want to<BR>
>comply with the various conditions that Imperial<BR>
>membership entails, like:<BR>
>- - Impy taxes (or maybe just _more_ Impy taxes).<BR>
<BR>
	I would expect some kind of revenue finding its way<BR>
	to the Imperium from a client state, but perhaps it<BR>
	is less (or at least less visible).<BR>
<BR>
>- - You're expected to generally agree with Imperial<BR>
>policy if you're a client state, but if you're a<BR>
>member world you have to agree with all the specifics.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure that this would be an issue in general,<BR>
	though it might be for some philisophically distinct<BR>
	client states.<BR>
<BR>
>- - The ban on slavery - I imagine some client states<BR>
>are havens for the slave trade.<BR>
<BR>
	This could be interesting.  I smell an adventure or<BR>
	two...<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, if you're a client state then it's easier<BR>
>to swap allegiances if you don't like the way Impy<BR>
>policy is going than if you're an Imperial member<BR>
>world.<BR>
<BR>
	The Imperial Navy doesn't like that sort of talk  ;)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 06:46:35<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
At 01:28 PM 5/24/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Your ancestors had ASCII?<BR>
><BR>
>*My* ancestors had to carve runes into large slabs of stone and leave<BR>
>them standing around the countryside.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why we kicked butt at Stamford Bridge in 1066.  All the Vikings<BR>
had hernias from distributing the Op order and annexes.  William the<BR>
Bastard, alas, had made the change to the Land Force 1000 organization, and<BR>
had instituted "bloody big rock-less" command structure.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
I resent your implication that Americans are insensitive<BR>
to the culture of the unwashed, ignorant heathens that<BR>
populate the rest of the world. -Shawn Wilson, in a.f.m<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 06:50:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:49 AM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned <BR>
>us.  The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing <BR>
>this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was <BR>
>purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to <BR>
>war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to <BR>
>believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.  <BR>
<BR>
What actually happened was that the declaration of war wasn't decrypted<BR>
fast enough by the Japanese Embassy in Washington.  With this delay, the US<BR>
wasn't presented with the formal document until after Pearl had been<BR>
destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
It was a sneak attack.  Nobody expected it, nobody was ready for it, and it<BR>
accomplished all of the mission objectives save one: the aircraft carriers<BR>
were not in the harbor.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:53:32 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: New Member<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch writes:<BR>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC51E.69E6FE20<BR>
>Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
>	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
>Hi I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself.<BR>
>My name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer, =<BR>
film student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer.<BR>
>Look forward to my first messages.<BR>
<MIME stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Welcome to the list!  If I may offer some advice: MIME makes a<BR>
	mess in the digest version of the TML, using plain text is much<BR>
	better.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:00:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned <BR>
> us.<BR>
<BR>
They *failed to notify us they were at war with us* until a couple<BR>
hours after the attack. <BR>
<BR>
> The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing <BR>
> this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was <BR>
> purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to <BR>
> war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to <BR>
> believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.  <BR>
<BR>
They tried to get cute. If everything had gone according to plan,<BR>
their ambassador would have delivered the declaration of war 30-60<BR>
minutes *before* the planes started attacking. Nowhere *near* enough<BR>
time for any warning to be sent, especially since we would have had to<BR>
warn *all* bases in the Pacific, not just Pearl Harbor.<BR>
<BR>
Where they erred was that they sent all but the final part of the<BR>
message (wich contained the actual declaration) the day before, and<BR>
they also sent a message instructing the Washington Embassy to destroy<BR>
all but one code machine, and all their secret paper. And to let no one<BR>
with less than ??? clearance handle any parts of the big multipart<BR>
message.<BR>
<BR>
What went wrong was that since they didn't tell the embassy it would be<BR>
an urgent message, nobody started decoding the multipart message until<BR>
Sunday morning (Washington time), after the final part arrived along<BR>
with a note saying that the whole thing had to be delivered to the<BR>
Secretary of State by 1pm. *None* of the people with the required<BR>
clearances could type worth a damn, so they weren't able to deliver the<BR>
message until well *after* the attack.<BR>
<BR>
Since we had cracked the cipher used, we had all but the last part of<BR>
the message long before the Japanese embassy did. It strongly implied<BR>
war, but that wasn't confirmed until the last part was received, hours<BR>
later. <BR>
<BR>
> In any case, in spite of what else they did, the Japanese did not <BR>
> attempt to perform a sneak attack.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but their plan while *technically* legal under international law<BR>
was clearly against the *intent* of such law. Namely, it did *not* give<BR>
the other side sufficient warning before starting hostilities. <BR>
<BR>
All of which is only marginally relevant because their attempt to<BR>
minimize the warning time backfired and they did in *fact* attack well<BR>
*before* the declaration was delivered. <BR>
<BR>
Any of a number of books give detailed timelines.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Somebody attempting to get cute by decaring war on another<BR>
system, and having their fleet jump in shortly after the declaration is<BR>
delivered (say 12 hours to allow for a very long jump by the ship<BR>
delivering the ultimatum, and a very short jump by the task force) gets<BR>
in trouble because the courier ship misjumped...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:19:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly<BR>
>> if it is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very<BR>
>> lethal, with a contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By<BR>
>> the time you know it's there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize<BR>
>> the facility you want, too.  No survivors equals no vector.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it<BR>
>> tends to kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere<BR>
>> (good thing!). Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
><BR>
> Then you'll be as or more evil to win???  That's exactly the sort of <BR>
> ends-justify-the-means thinking that leads to all manner of horrors.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm reminded of a short story I read *many* years ago, where the <BR>
> Soviets nuked the US and most of our half of the world and the <BR>
> response by the (very) few dying survivors (who had been attacked <BR>
> too suddenly to launch a counter attack) was they they would die <BR>
> with their missiles unlaunched since if they did that at least a <BR>
> portion of humanity would survive.  A counterattack would have <BR>
> toasted the Soviets and their portion of the world as badly as their <BR>
> attack toasted the other half and likely made humanity extinct.  <BR>
><BR>
> Such a decision fits my definition of true heroism and honorable <BR>
> action, sinking to the level of your opponents is best outgrown in <BR>
> grade school.  Btw, anyone here remember the name or author of <BR>
> this story?<BR>
<BR>
There's a very similar story by Clarke in "The Wind From the Sun"<BR>
collection of short stories. I won't tell you *how* it is different,<BR>
that'd spoil it. Just read it, it's only a couple of pages. I can't<BR>
recall the title, but all the stories in that book are worth reading.<BR>
<BR>
If you don't want to read all of them, then just check the first few<BR>
paragraphs of each story as you go thru the book, it should be pretty<BR>
obvious when you hit the right one.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 04:27:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Big Warships (was: Re: 1EP=250MW...seems too high)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On 05/23/00 at 01:14 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
>><BR>
>> >> Not that I have anything against large ship. Of course, if<BR>
>> it's big enough<BR>
>> >> then you don't need stats, just it shoots you're dead.<BR>
>><BR>
>> >GM: "You notice an opening on the other ship big enough to easily<BR>
>> >     accept your ship..."<BR>
>> >PC: "A Docking bay!"<BR>
>> >Gm: "No, the business end of a PAW..."<BR>
>><BR>
>> Exactly!<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Hey, Captain!  What do you think would happen if we flew right<BR>
>> *down* that barrel?"<BR>
><BR>
> This was standard tactics for our Solomani fighter squadron Mad Mike's<BR>
> Maruaders, during the formation of the Rule of Man.<BR>
><BR>
> "Fly straight into the spinal meson mount guys, it's the least-defended<BR>
> surface area of the ship, and they won't refocus the meson to take us out,<BR>
> it'll be too busy targetting the capital ships !"<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem with that. <BR>
<BR>
Meson guns don't *need* openings in the hull!<BR>
<BR>
PAWs and lasers *do*. And they don't need to be re-targeted...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2487<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2488</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2488<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Legion Rides Again<BR>
Fw: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Colony Charters<BR>
Welcome back, Kiri...<BR>
TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
RE: G=?kph formula<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons (WARNING:  Degenerating THread!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 06:38:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Legion Rides Again<BR>
<BR>
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>We all have axes to grind and ancestors who suffered. Take it someplace<BR>
else<BR>
>and let's talk Traveller, huh?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, I have tried to talk Traveller, you might want to look at my<BR>
Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels Thread.  Of course if you do not want to talk<BR>
about Traveller, fine by me.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 06:51:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Fw: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
    Some asked for this to be forwared to the list,  Thus I have done.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 1:35 PM<BR>
Subject: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>    Something I have been thinking about for Traveller is an old idea.<BR>
>Trading Coastals or Trading Cartels, or basicly you own a merchant ship &<BR>
>you are part of a large co-op of other small ship owners.  This basicly<BR>
>started when my F2F started a new campaign (using CT for BG, MT for the<BR>
main<BR>
>rules, & TNE for other rules), & I had 4 people playing Merchants & they<BR>
all<BR>
>got Free Traders, 2 Scouts both with Scoutships, & 1 Noble with a Yacht.<BR>
As<BR>
>well as a Naval Captain who has a Patrol Cruiser.  How can you run a game<BR>
>where you have 8 Ships in it?  Trade Cartel, was the thought that came<BR>
back.<BR>
>    Now how would this work?  Going from history, a ship owner would give<BR>
up<BR>
>half of his profits & at the end of the year get a share in the profits of<BR>
>the Trading Coastals.  Now this may not sound like that good of a deal, in<BR>
>that if a lot of ships fail to turn a profit, you will lose money because<BR>
>other ship owners who are not good merchants will be able to take a share<BR>
of<BR>
>the profits from someone who is a better merchant.  But, it is.<BR>
><BR>
>Advantages:<BR>
>    1) Increased buying power.  If you look at the rules for buying in<BR>
bulk,<BR>
>the more you are able to buy, the more you save.  Makes sense, but when you<BR>
>are a Merchant, the only way you can really make a good profit is<BR>
>speculative trading.  So if you have 100 people pooling resources you<BR>
should<BR>
>beable to get a good deal.  In game terms I would give each roll on the<BR>
cost<BR>
>of buying speculative cargos a bonus depending upon the Broker your Trade<BR>
>Cartel has on that world.<BR>
>    Also, you would have a better chance to get more passengers to your<BR>
>target world.  As well as being able to cut down on operation costs, i.e.<BR>
>fuel costs 5,000 Cr/ton normally, you might be able to get it for 4,500<BR>
>Cr/ton with a Cartel.<BR>
>    2) Increased selling power.  If you can buy widgets for 100 Cr. less<BR>
>than your rivals, you could sell them for 50 Cr. less than their price &<BR>
get<BR>
>a healthy profit.<BR>
>    How this would work is that you would have a Broker in place at the<BR>
>destination world & instead of paying him 5% commision per level of Broker<BR>
>skill he has, you could have it set at 3% per level.  Basicly, I know I<BR>
>would rather have a steady income over a long period of time, than making<BR>
my<BR>
>money in spurts.<BR>
>    3) Increased protection.  While a single ship cannot afford to hire a<BR>
>large company of mercs, a Trade Cartel could.  So if a planet illegally<BR>
>messes with a Trade Cartel & it is big enough it could hire enough Mercs to<BR>
>make that planet think twice about messing with it again.<BR>
>    Also, the Trade Cartel could buy ship weaponary for its members at a<BR>
>lower price.  I.e a Triple Beam Laser Turret costs 3,000,000 Cr., but a<BR>
>Cartel member might be able to get it for 2,500,000 Cr.<BR>
>    4) Warehousing.  On your major stops, you would have warehouses in<BR>
>place, already, so you would not have to pay to store goods.  Therefore if<BR>
>planet A, where you have a warehouse has a major surplus of wigits, you<BR>
>could buy them all up & not have to worry about storing them.<BR>
>    5) Insurance.  Even if you have had a bad year, you will still make<BR>
some<BR>
>money.<BR>
><BR>
>Disadvantages.<BR>
>    1) Rivals.  Megacorps might go after you, as you will provide an<BR>
>alternative to them.<BR>
>    2) Debts.  What if everyone losses money in one year?<BR>
><BR>
>    Hopefully someone else can think of other Advantages & Disadvantages to<BR>
>this.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:04:51 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch writes:<BR>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
>         Welcome to the list!  If I may offer some advice: MIME makes a<BR>
>         mess in the digest version of the TML, using plain text is much<BR>
>         better.<BR>
<BR>
Damn those mimes anyway!  They think they're so sophisticated, with<BR>
their white face paint and black leotards....<BR>
<BR>
Is hating mimes a meme? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:03:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Colony Charters<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone on the list made up a colony charter for their games, and if so I<BR>
would like a look at it as my players are part way through setting up a<BR>
colony.<BR>
What things would be in such a charter, ideas anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:17:42 -0500<BR>
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Welcome back, Kiri...<BR>
<BR>
Welcome back, Kiri,<BR>
<BR>
I've only recently noticed your return to the list (forgive me if you've<BR>
been back a while, work is hectic,) and I'm glad to see you back at the<BR>
keyboard, so to speak. I hope all is going well, and I'm looking forward to<BR>
the return of your unique commentary to this list. :)<BR>
<BR>
Take care and enjoy,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:20:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
OK everybody, apologies for any gross errors or rudeness in my posts.  I<BR>
really shouldn't be up at 2am reading TML.  Will advanced technology bring a<BR>
cure for this sleep disease? There just aren't enough hours in the day.<BR>
<BR>
Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become cost<BR>
effective as areplacement.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 07:43:49 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>It was a sneak attack.  Nobody expected it, nobody was ready for it, and it<BR>
>accomplished all of the mission objectives save one: the aircraft carriers<BR>
>were not in the harbor.<BR>
<BR>
  It's hard to see how strategic surprise was achieved (if, indeed,<BR>
it was, which is a matter of definitions), given that the US embargo<BR>
on oil to Japan was a de facto ultimatum, or at least appears so in<BR>
hind-sight. An interesting question becomes whether or not that was<BR>
realized at the time (i.e., was the USN really stupid? Or did people<BR>
assume that the Japanese would acquiesce as they obviously weren't<BR>
strong enough to fight a long war? Both sides being stupid isn't an<BR>
impossibility...)<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav: no doubt some Solomani thought that the Imperium wouldn't<BR>
go to war over the re-absorption of the Sphere ... oops?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:57:43 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our military<BR>
allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being a<BR>
carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:50 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:49 AM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned<BR>
> >us.  The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing<BR>
> >this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was<BR>
> >purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to<BR>
> >war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to<BR>
> >believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.<BR>
><BR>
> What actually happened was that the declaration of war wasn't decrypted<BR>
> fast enough by the Japanese Embassy in Washington.  With this delay, the<BR>
US<BR>
> wasn't presented with the formal document until after Pearl had been<BR>
> destroyed.<BR>
><BR>
> It was a sneak attack.  Nobody expected it, nobody was ready for it, and<BR>
it<BR>
> accomplished all of the mission objectives save one: the aircraft carriers<BR>
> were not in the harbor.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:52:06 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
American Civil War scholar James McPherson, in "Drawn by the Sword," has<BR>
interesting things to say about the "will to win" vs material superiority<BR>
arguments. His essay is about the Civil War, but I think it can apply to any<BR>
war.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, McPherson is discussing the reasons why the Union won the Civil<BR>
War. Many people, including Union and Confederate veterans, have felt that<BR>
the Union's industrial and manpower advantages over the Confederacy were the<BR>
primary reasons the Union won. The South had the will to win, but lacked the<BR>
means. In the 80s, a group of mostly Southern historians argue that the<BR>
South actually *lacked* the will to win, contrasting the Confederacy's<BR>
losses to those of Paraguay, which between 1865-71 lost 56% of its<BR>
population in losing a war to a coalition of South American nations.<BR>
(Clearly the Paraguayans had the will to win!)<BR>
<BR>
McPherson's basic argument is that all of these explanations fail because<BR>
they may be reversed; that is, if the war had been won by the other side,<BR>
the perceived strengths would be perceived as weaknesses. For example, if<BR>
Lincoln had not been reelected in 1864 (a real possibility), the South would<BR>
likely have won the war and Lincoln, instead of being viewed as one of the<BR>
greatest presidents in US history, would be seen as too weak to win the war.<BR>
Even with its material superiority, the North nearly lost the war several<BR>
times.<BR>
<BR>
His other argument is that neither material nor will to win is sufficient as<BR>
an explanation of why won side wins a war; both are highly interdependent.<BR>
The Confederacy did indeed suffer a loss of will in 1864-5, but this was<BR>
because Union successes were making it clear that defeat was becoming<BR>
inevitable. Similarly, Southern successes caused the Union to several times<BR>
nearly give up the war. In the context of other wars, Allied bombing raids<BR>
on Germany clearly helped to break their will to win, just as French<BR>
defeatism may have contributed heavily to the ease of the German invasion of<BR>
1940.<BR>
<BR>
In the context of Traveller, I'm not sure the will to win is as important<BR>
for the Frontier Wars, as the Zhodani clearly envision them as limited wars<BR>
to prevent Imperial expansion into the Consulate. It might become important<BR>
if one side or the other scored decisive victories early in a war (which has<BR>
never happened); if the Zhos hit the Imperials, would they be tempted to<BR>
conquer parts of the Marches, or at least set up independent buffer states?<BR>
And if the Impies smashed the Zhos early, would they invade the Consulate<BR>
proper? How hard would the Zhos fight?<BR>
<BR>
As a related ObTrav, all this discussion about the reasons each side won a<BR>
war might make an interesting adventure. The PCs are hired by an eccentric<BR>
professor (perhaps inspired by "Crisis of '99") to prove that *his*<BR>
interpretation of why one of the Frontier wars was won is correct.<BR>
Difficulties develop as representatives of both (or more) powers arrive to<BR>
enforce the official reasons...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
PS If you think these WWI / WWII flamewars are bad, head over to<BR>
alt.war.civil.usa, where they're still fighting the war (sigh...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:10:33 +0000 (GMT)<BR>
From: Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:28 PM 5/24/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Your ancestors had ASCII?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >*My* ancestors had to carve runes into large slabs of stone and leave<BR>
> >them standing around the countryside.<BR>
> <BR>
> Which is why we kicked butt at Stamford Bridge in 1066.  All the Vikings<BR>
> had hernias from distributing the Op order and annexes.  William the<BR>
> Bastard, alas, had made the change to the Land Force 1000 organization, and<BR>
> had instituted "bloody big rock-less" command structure.<BR>
> -- <BR>
<BR>
	Ok, keyboard & co-worker kill...  My asistant is sitting here<BR>
wanting to know where to mail the letterbomb in retribution for a<BR>
hot-choclate shower...  I'm still snickering...<BR>
<BR>
	--Michel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:20:19 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>They used American prisoners of war for *BAYONET PRACTICE*  They were damn<BR>
lucky that CNN wasn't around when we started getting our prisoners back, or<BR>
you might still be unable to set foot on the glowing remnats of Japan.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes I know. And the U.S. engaged in the deliberate bombing of civilians by<BR>
air. Something they had previously stated was wrong and subsequently agreed<BR>
was wrong - except for them.<BR>
<BR>
>Ever read the conditions?  No war crimes trials, no restitutions, they get<BR>
to keep what ever they were holding at the end of the war...  No.  The<BR>
Japanese Empire started the war with sneak attacks on American and British<BR>
forces, and spent four years behaving like monsters.  They were given two<BR>
choices: surrender on our terms, or the war continues.<<BR>
<BR>
As opposed to unconditional surrender including destruction of their<BR>
religion and entire social order. It is called negotiation though obviously<BR>
such a concept is beyond you. Are you still upset that the Soviet Union<BR>
wasn't occupied when the Cold War ended?<BR>
<BR>
>About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:35:38 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>>Basic tenet of warfare:<BR>
<BR>
The only rule is win.  All weapons are judged according to cost/benefit.<BR>
consider mass bombing during WWII (Dresden comes to mind).  Any less<BR>
horrific than a pewee nuke?<<BR>
<BR>
If you lose your humanity while winning the war, did you really win<BR>
anything?<BR>
Oh, and no it isn't.<BR>
<BR>
>While in WWII the allies wanted total victory.  It seems to me they<BR>
had just about enough of German aggression. Then the holocaust<BR>
and other real war crimes/ not civilian deaths came to light, so they<BR>
where angry. With Japan it was anger, and economic reasons.<BR>
Anger after Pearl Harbour and the realization after 1943 that we<BR>
were going to win drove most of the war.  Economically before the<BR>
war Japan was growing and we needed to stop them thats why<BR>
FFD did everything he did.  All of this kept the allies fighting even<BR>
after victory could have occurred without total victory.<<BR>
<BR>
The Holocaust and other related acts were never an issue in Europe until<BR>
after the war was over. In the Pacific, Japanese atrocities against the<BR>
Chinese were a major issue in the economic sanctions passed against Japan<BR>
that made war with them inevitable while the fighting in Europe was going<BR>
on. (As opposed to 5-20 years after they had finished conquering China that<BR>
is. War with Japan because of their desired economic expansion and<BR>
militarism had been inevitable since the 30's.)<BR>
<BR>
>War crimes are intentional attacks on a civilian population to kill it<BR>
period.  Or a violation of the Geneva Laws on conduct, by the way<BR>
this is the only true war crime that I know of.<<BR>
<BR>
Which means various carpet bombings of cities in Germany and Japan. They<BR>
were terror bombings intended to kill civilians more than cause economic<BR>
damage. The leaders knew this and didn't care. Further, there is significant<BR>
evidence that the resources expended on those bombing campaigns could have<BR>
ended the war much sooner had they been spent on tactical weapons. The<BR>
simple evidence that is was direct occupation and use of nuclear weapons<BR>
that finally caused surrender is rather obvious.<BR>
<BR>
>History is written by the victors.  The events of the past are reinforced<BR>
by the victor's POV.  What are defined as war crimes are often defined by<BR>
the victor.  The victor never suffers retribution for any war crimes they--<BR>
in God's eyes-- are guilty of.  The Axis were inhuman monsters.  Hollywood<BR>
said so.<<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't mean the Allies were angels though.<BR>
The ObTrav being, the Consulate vs. the Imperium, is either really that<BR>
decent?<BR>
<BR>
>Then you'll be as or more evil to win???  That's exactly the sort of<BR>
ends-justify-the-means thinking that leads to all manner of horrors.<<BR>
<BR>
Indeed.<BR>
I'd recommend quite a few of the short stories in the "There Will Be War"<BR>
anthology series edited by Jerry Pournelle for a quick course on military<BR>
ethics.<BR>
<BR>
>They *failed to notify us they were at war with us* until a couple<BR>
hours after the attack. <<BR>
<BR>
Although the other side is that only a blithering idiot wouldn't have<BR>
realized the inevitability of war by that time and had the forces better<BR>
prepared. Another failure of the leadership to provide for the soldiers.<BR>
Indeed, the CV not being in port at the time is often used as "proof" that<BR>
they did know and protected the one really important ship while leaving the<BR>
others as bait.<BR>
<BR>
>This maches the idea about the Frontier Wars.   Neither side sees<BR>
total victory as worth the cost of total war, so they fight small<BR>
boarder clashes.  It seems the true winners/losers will always be<BR>
the small independent states like the Sword Worlds.  They have to<BR>
side with one side of the other. To them it means the winning or<BR>
losing of a few worlds, this can make or break them, unlike the two<BR>
giants that can lose/gain subsectors.<<BR>
<BR>
Like Entrope which has more people than the rest of either the Sword Worlds<BR>
or the Darrian Confederation by itself.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:59:20 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: G=?kph formula<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The short answer to the original question is:<BR>
>velocity in kph equals Gs times time (in seconds) times 3.6  OR<BR>
>Vk = Ag * T * 36<BR>
>For example, accelerating at 1g for 100 seconds, we get<BR>
>Vk = 1 * 100 * 36 = 3600 kph<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Very elegant.  I would venture to add the old CT form:<BR>
<BR>
	Vf = Vi + (2 * A * T)<BR>
where<BR>
	Vf = final velocity, in inches/turn (1" = 1,000 miles = 1,600 km)<BR>
	Vi = initial velocity, in inches/turn<BR>
	A = acceleration in Gs (maneuver drive number)<BR>
	T = time, in turns (1 turn = 10 minutes)<BR>
<BR>
>(now watch this, now that I've been all snooty about it, someone's going<BR>
>to show how wrong I am :-) <BR>
<BR>
	No, McGilligans are never wrong.  At least, that's what my fiance tells<BR>
	me.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:31:40 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
<De-Lurk><BR>
<BR>
I usually just read, but this part needs to be cleared-up.<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned <BR>
>> us.<BR>
><BR>
>They *failed to notify us they were at war with us* until a couple<BR>
>hours after the attack. <BR>
<BR>
The Japanese Government did not get around to DRAFTING a DECLARATION OF WAR<BR>
until several hours AFTER Pearl Harbor.<BR>
<BR>
It did not even get to the notification part.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing <BR>
>> this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was <BR>
>> purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to <BR>
>> war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to <BR>
>> believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.  <BR>
><BR>
>They tried to get cute. If everything had gone according to plan,<BR>
>their ambassador would have delivered the declaration of war 30-60<BR>
>minutes *before* the planes started attacking. Nowhere *near* enough<BR>
>time for any warning to be sent, especially since we would have had to<BR>
>warn *all* bases in the Pacific, not just Pearl Harbor.<BR>
<BR>
The famous multi-part message that the Japanese were suppose to deliver to<BR>
Cordell Hull just before Pearl Harbor was NOT, rpt NOT a declaration of war.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, it did not even break-off _diplomatic relations_!<BR>
<BR>
It simply stated that the Japanese thought the negotiations were not going<BR>
to reach an agreement.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Where they erred was that they sent all but the final part of the<BR>
>message (wich contained the actual declaration) the day before, and<BR>
>they also sent a message instructing the Washington Embassy to destroy<BR>
>all but one code machine, and all their secret paper. And to let no one<BR>
>with less than ??? clearance handle any parts of the big multipart<BR>
>message.<BR>
><BR>
>What went wrong was that since they didn't tell the embassy it would be<BR>
>an urgent message, nobody started decoding the multipart message until<BR>
>Sunday morning (Washington time), after the final part arrived along<BR>
>with a note saying that the whole thing had to be delivered to the<BR>
>Secretary of State by 1pm. *None* of the people with the required<BR>
>clearances could type worth a damn, so they weren't able to deliver the<BR>
>message until well *after* the attack.<BR>
><BR>
>Since we had cracked the cipher used, we had all but the last part of<BR>
>the message long before the Japanese embassy did. It strongly implied<BR>
>war, but that wasn't confirmed until the last part was received, hours<BR>
>later. <BR>
<BR>
It was sounded more like a long whine about America's evil intentions<BR>
against Japan, and Japan's good intentions overall..<BR>
<BR>
So the Japanese DID intend, and carry-out, a sneak attack.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:34:27 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...<BR>
<BR>
Proof please?<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind, until Pearl Harbor, the USN was essentially wedded to Plan<BR>
Orange, a scheme which definitely was not in favour of a carrier war.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our military<BR>
>allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
>happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
>minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
>without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being a<BR>
>carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
>___________________________________________________________<BR>
> J-Man<BR>
> ICQ# 2843475<BR>
> New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
> Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
> Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
>___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:27:21 +0200<BR>
From: Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
Subject: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
works.<BR>
As long as i know, it is a big mesonaccelerator, which blasts a<BR>
stream of near c mesons to the target. In the books it is stated,<BR>
that mesons do not interact with normal matter (electrons and<BR>
baryons) but if they decay, the decayproducts would. AFAIK that is<BR>
right, but it is said, that a mesoncannon focuses the stream, so,<BR>
that nearly all mesons decay in the target, how is this arranged,<BR>
for unstable particles exists a half time, the time, when half of<BR>
the particles is decayed, so from the beginning to target and<BR>
beyond there is a stream of the decayproducts. Only a real small<BR>
percentage of the mesons decays within the target, as long as I<BR>
know. So you would need really much more energy,  to inflict damage<BR>
on the physical target, radiation of the crew is an other thema,<BR>
and yes a meson gun would need an open end, end direct fire meson<BR>
artellery would be useless.<BR>
<BR>
Is there a explanation for this.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
I'm just a happy chicken from a backwood asteroid.<BR>
gaack...<BR>
ICQ UIN 55009348<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:45:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> works.<BR>
<BR>
A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a meson gun.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:56:08 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> > works.<BR>
> <BR>
> A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named > after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate > normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a > meson gun.<BR>
<BR>
I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
Mesons. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:01:09 +0000 (GMT)<BR>
From: Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons (WARNING:  Degenerating THread!)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> > > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> > > works.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named > after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate > normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a > meson gun.<BR>
> <BR>
> I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
> Mesons. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
	Nonsense.  You can't fire them if they are working for free.	<BR>
<BR>
	--Michel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2488<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2489<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons (WARNING:  Degenerating THread!)<BR>
Off The List....<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (Rules of War)<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
RE: Rant and Flame Wars<BR>
Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
Re: Colony Charters<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:58:11 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn schrieb:<BR>
[snip] <BR>
> <BR>
> Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become cost<BR>
> effective as a replacement.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say so, and not only because of the direct cost of a milbot vs. the<BR>
cost of a battle dress(many dog-sized warbots would be much cheaper),<BR>
but also the indirect cost of loosing soldiers and having to tell that<BR>
to the media. "The Imperial Forces report no casualties except a few<BR>
attack robots. The area is secured." (and who in the media will care for<BR>
the exact numbers in such a case?)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
Condfederation, on the other hand... </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
BTW: Has anyone done a modular Robot design system (similar to the GT<BR>
ship design system) for GURPS: Robots? That book is a bit too detailed<BR>
for my personal taste...<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:10:35 -0500<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons (WARNING:  Degenerating THread!)<BR>
<BR>
> > > Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> > > > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> > > > works.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently<BR>
named > after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate<BR>
> normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a ><BR>
meson gun.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
> > Mesons. ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Nonsense.  You can't fire them if they are working for free.<BR>
><BR>
> --Michel<BR>
<BR>
Boss:  I'm afraid we have to fire you.<BR>
<BR>
Kramer:  Well, i don't really work here.<BR>
<BR>
Boss:  I know, that's what makes this so hard.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:11:57 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Off The List....<BR>
<BR>
Logging off the list for a week or so, to attend BayCon....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:08:11 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> > > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> > > works.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named > after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate > normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a > meson gun.<BR>
> <BR>
> I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
> Mesons. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
You see, Karsten, the TML is rough terrain. :-)<BR>
<BR>
But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
of course.<BR>
<BR>
Uebrigens: EInns! Zweiii! Dreiii!<BR>
;-) SCNR<BR>
<BR>
Question to the TML:<BR>
Is it true that most of you don't like Traveller Technobabble? Why don't<BR>
you?<BR>
<BR>
CU, <BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:25:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
<BR>
> But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
> has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
> hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
> right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
> of course.<BR>
<BR>
This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay in X seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a period, with a decay curve such that half will have decayed after X seconds.<BR>
<BR>
> Question to the TML:<BR>
> Is it true that most of you don't like Traveller Technobabble? Why don't<BR>
> you?<BR>
<BR>
Technobabble is fine.  I don't like obviously false technobabble, which is what the meson gun explanation is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:28:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Everything you say makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank.<BR>
<BR>
>In fact, I'd take it further - each of the 'Merchants Co-op' kicks in Cr 5<BR>
>000 a month, and the Co-op uses that money to lease warehouse space and an<BR>
>office and put a broker on retainer on each world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sounds good, but I should have put in there, that when you put in half<BR>
your profits, that the money is used first for expenses, such as leasing<BR>
warehouse space (or buying a warehouse, which IMHO, is a better idea than<BR>
leasing), leasing or buying offices (of course you could put your offices<BR>
into the warehouse), & putting a broker on retainer (again your broker could<BR>
run your offices & warehouse on a planet).<BR>
<BR>
>They also pool their profits, and as they can buy up their mortgages, so<BR>
>that they are paying themselves rather than a bank.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Now that would take major money, as IIRC, a Type A Free Trader costs<BR>
around 35 Megacredits, but after a while, they could do that.<BR>
<BR>
>The question is therefore 'why doesnt it always happen this way ?'.<BR>
<BR>
    Always.<BR>
<BR>
>The first answer is that the Free Trader model we all know and love just<BR>
>isnt viable for most market niches. Long distance trade by Free Traders is<BR>
>viable in my opinion (there is unlikely to be another load of Tarsus Wine<BR>
>going to Mora to compete with yours), but short-haul work is going to be<BR>
>dominated by corporate concerns (why should we ship with you, rather than<BR>
>with someone who has an office on the planet, and will still be there next<BR>
>year ?). If you are a colony or asteroid bases' sole trading ship, then<BR>
sure<BR>
>(you need to get a balance of cargos over a year, so you cant just go to<BR>
and<BR>
>from the same small set of worlds).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Maybe, maybe not.  I see Megacorps as only going between Class A (TL<BR>
11+)& some Class B (TL 11+) Starports, not between anything else.  And, that<BR>
would be their market niche.  And, if you put up an office & have been<BR>
around for a long time, I think that most people would deal with you.<BR>
    Also, most Megacorps are going to be shipping stuff between offices,<BR>
plants, mines, etc.  Any spare cargo space will be used for shipping local<BR>
shipments.<BR>
    For example, Planet A (Starport C, TL 8, Industrial) would not have a<BR>
market for its goods, as it cannot build its own starships, but in order to<BR>
get off planet credit, it needs to ship its products of world, & it cannot<BR>
compete with TL 9 products.  So what do they do?  Well, if a Trade Coastal<BR>
was smart it would come in, put in some offices & ship this planets products<BR>
to other worlds that are around TL 8.  I am sure a TL 5 world would pay<BR>
extra for TL 8 products.  And, if that TL 5 world is an Ag world, than you<BR>
have a second good customer.  You ship industrial products from a TL 8 world<BR>
to the TL 5 world, & agricultural products to the TL 8 world.  Now, the<BR>
profits may not be huge, but if you work it right you can market it right,<BR>
vacations on the TL 5 Ag world to the TL 8 Ind World, & taking students from<BR>
the TL 5 Ag world to learn on TL 8 Ind world.<BR>
    As time goes on, the TL 5 Ag world will soon hit TL 6, then TL 7, then<BR>
TL 8.  Once both worlds are at the same TL, they then could pool resources<BR>
to get to TL 9.  And, if a Trade Coastal is there, they could get the lion's<BR>
share of the shipping off both worlds.  Also, once both worlds are at TL 9,<BR>
then you could buy starships from them.<BR>
    Also, you could increase the TL 8 Ind world to higher TLs by bringing in<BR>
examples of higher TL products.<BR>
    There are manythings that you could do with just this minor situation.<BR>
<BR>
>The second answer is that Free Traders do usually club together in such a<BR>
>way. It may not be formal, but one thing the GURPS mechanics encourage is a<BR>
>web of Contacts and Allies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Very informal.  But, workable for a start.<BR>
<BR>
>The third answer is that what you are describing is very Canon - Merchant<BR>
>Prince mentions the Fledgeling Line UTP as being five Free Trader ships<BR>
that<BR>
>agreed to work together.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Cool.<BR>
<BR>
>I'd say it's a good way of linking PCs into something a bit beyond a single<BR>
>ship campaign.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I was thinking like that.  The Patrol Cruiser escorts important<BR>
shipments by single free traders, or large shipments when all 4 are<BR>
together.  The Scouts search out new markets & carry mail.  The players are<BR>
planning to buy a subsidized merchant using a world that they have regular<BR>
trade with to help them.<BR>
<BR>
>Good thinking and a good post :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:02:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: samwise1 <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>Yes I know. And the U.S. engaged in the deliberate bombing of civilians by<BR>
>air. Something they had previously stated was wrong and subsequently agreed<BR>
>was wrong - except for them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, no.  They said it was wrong & kept saying it was wrong, but it<BR>
was the only way to win.  And, sometimes you have to break the rules to beat<BR>
something so evil.<BR>
<BR>
>As opposed to unconditional surrender including destruction of their<BR>
>religion and entire social order. It is called negotiation though obviously<BR>
>such a concept is beyond you. Are you still upset that the Soviet Union<BR>
>wasn't occupied when the Cold War ended?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Gee, I think this is turning into a flame.<BR>
<BR>
>>About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
>Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You need help, sam.  Not even I am this bad.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:29:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  my favourite 'Trade Cartel' is the Gushemege Merchantile Guild founded<BR>
>  in -327 Imperial. It gone into underground becoming some sort of Mafia<BR>
>  after the Gushemege Pacification Campain 600-800 Imperial. During the<BR>
>  Rebellion the Guild became part of Strephons covert survey adding value<BR>
>  informations to his intelligence branch. After the awaken the Guild<BR>
>  aranged with sophont ships and equipment. In 1206 the Guild is able to<BR>
>  smugle cheap TL13 anagathics to the Regency, while building starports<BR>
>  on the Rim to follow the 'power of disaperance' movement, that was<BR>
>  distributed as religous meme in the Rurevayn to prepare evacuation<BR>
>  from the Empress Wave.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Another way to run a Trade Cartel.  And, it does make sense & can add to<BR>
your game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:36:35 -0400<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>Subject: RE: Client States<BR>
<BR>
>Arthur Boff writes:<BR>
>>I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of<BR>
the<BR>
>>Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives - so<BR>
>>don't flame me if this is canonically incorrect,<BR>
but:<BR>
<BR>
> Welcome!  Don't worry too much about the canon<BR>
thing.<BR>
> Canon is a good place to start, but there are lots<BR>
of<BR>
> us who have moved a long way from it.<BR>
<BR>
Here's something to be optimistic about: My parents<BR>
weren't even married when Traveller first came out, I<BR>
was born 5 years after it came out, and after my exams<BR>
are over I hope to start a Traveller campaign with a<BR>
bunch of similarly-aged friends of mine, to play<BR>
face-to-face when we can and by e-mail when we're at<BR>
University.<BR>
<BR>
Who said there's no future for Traveller ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>>- - You're expected to generally agree with Imperial<BR>
>>policy if you're a client state, but if you're a<BR>
>>member world you have to agree with all the<BR>
specifics.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure that this would be an issue in general,<BR>
>though it might be for some philisophically distinct<BR>
>client states.<BR>
<BR>
What I was saying here was:<BR>
<BR>
If you're a client state, you probably agree with the<BR>
basic tenets of the Imperium but don't have to support<BR>
all their actions - you can "opt out" of backing up<BR>
Imperial military actions and stuff if you want to. If<BR>
you're a member world you _have_ to toe the Imperial<BR>
line.<BR>
<BR>
>>- - The ban on slavery - I imagine some client<BR>
states<BR>
>>are havens for the slave trade.<BR>
<BR>
>This could be interesting.  I smell an adventure or<BR>
>two...<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the number of elitist Imperial officials<BR>
who maintain homes in Client States staffed with<BR>
slaves for when they're off duty must be...<BR>
noticeable.<BR>
<BR>
>>Of course, if you're a client state then it's easier<BR>
>>to swap allegiances if you don't like the way Impy<BR>
>>policy is going than if you're an Imperial member<BR>
>>world.<BR>
<BR>
>The Imperial Navy doesn't like that sort of talk  ;)<BR>
<BR>
But the Client States must _really hate_ that sort of<BR>
talk. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
If the Navy's going to attack Client States for trying<BR>
to break away from Imperial influence then the rules<BR>
of the political game change a little. Client<BR>
Statehood becomes a one-way street - if you stop<BR>
there, fine, if you keep going you're in the Imperium,<BR>
and if you try and go backwards you meet the Navy<BR>
coming the other way.<BR>
<BR>
This means that Client States would have to be<BR>
*absolutely sure* about choosing which side they're<BR>
going to be on. This won't really reduce the number of<BR>
client states - anyone stuck between two empires, one<BR>
of which is expansionist and is afraid of the other,<BR>
is going to have to choose sides or not last long. But<BR>
it will mean that the political debate about Client<BR>
Statehood within the Client States will be *very*<BR>
heated.<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
PS: Not being a US Citizen, I don't know this - if a<BR>
State of the Union wanted to quit, could it legally?<BR>
Isn't that what the American Civil War was about?<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:41:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
>It doesn't matter whether he has a "right" to take it personally.<BR>
>Telling people that if they don't have something positive to saty they<BR>
>shouldn't say anything is *stupid*. It means that folks aren't going to<BR>
>report bugs, or ask for enhancements.<BR>
<BR>
>It's one thing to say "I'm tired of supporting this program". It's<BR>
>another to just dump it out there with no support.<BR>
<BR>
The program hasn't been dumped out without support. As Derrick has pointed<BR>
out the WBD Mailing List is available for anyone to discuss any aspect of<BR>
the program whether it be suggestions, bug reports or seeking support.<BR>
<BR>
>Excuse me, but you *cannot* have *real* feedback with a "If you don't<BR>
>like it, shut up" rule.<BR>
<BR>
I have never shied away from feedback, just the opposite. The 'shut<BR>
up'comment was addressed to those people who don't seem willing to give the<BR>
program the chance. I think all of the members of the WBD Mailing List will<BR>
agree that I have listened to what they have to say, and tried to help or<BR>
implement their suggestions whenever I am able. I'll happily take criticism<BR>
on the content of the program and its output.<BR>
<BR>
However, what I am not willing to take criticism on is the fact that the<BR>
program has been developed for a specific platform using a specific OS and<BR>
utilising the capabilites of that OS to my full advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:52:54 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (Rules of War)<BR>
<BR>
Now this is kind of getting interesting, though not so easily Traveller<BR>
related (though I'm going to try to tie that in). I won't get into whether<BR>
Pearl was a sneak attack/sacrificial lamb or not. The evidence is<BR>
inconclusive at a strategic level (though the Japanese clearly got tactical<BR>
surprise, my uncle could have attested to that having been directly involved<BR>
with a hanger AA-battery).<BR>
But about the Japanese and the rules of war, they were definitely running by<BR>
their own rules and probably didn't have a full understanding of Western<BR>
obsession with the Geneva Convention. They had never really evolved the same<BR>
institutions in their own insulated wars where surrender led to dishonor and<BR>
the death of your whole family (though collective responsibility). Ah,<BR>
cultural diversity.<BR>
Even the rules of war broke down in the 'civilized' fighting on the Western<BR>
Front between Germany and the US/UK. War is bloody business and the heat of<BR>
passion enables even American troops to fire at German medics tending to<BR>
battlefield casualties. It's dehumanizing business at best.<BR>
The real question to ask is what's the point of rules of war? Maybe they<BR>
should be done away with. Maybe war should be forced to degenerate into the<BR>
horror it truly can be. That certainly raises the psychological cost of war.<BR>
War is easy when everyone follows the rules, all you have to do is be<BR>
willing to sacrifice a lot of youngish men and national treasure. It becomes<BR>
a lot harder to swallow when you know war will spill over into normal life.<BR>
Maybe war should reach the people responsible for making the war decisions<BR>
in the first place (the old men in the government) or the people who enable<BR>
them. Maybe war should be exposed to everyone for the grinder it truly is, a<BR>
lesson particularly appropriate for the powers that start the war. The<BR>
Germans certainly learned the true horror of war when the Soviets brought it<BR>
to their doorsteps. Fighting in their homes, they learned what they didn't<BR>
in WWI. Sherman taught that lesson to the Confederacy during his march and<BR>
pillage.<BR>
On to the Imperial Rules of War (thought I'd never get to Traveller did<BR>
ya?). While probably intended to keep war down to a less brutal level (no<BR>
weapons of mass destruction and all) it's also a very convenient way to not<BR>
have to get off Imperial butts to protect people, Imperial citizens, from<BR>
the horrors of war. Call it official callousness, perhaps, the freedom to<BR>
not have to 'get involved' even on humanitarian grounds allowing brutality<BR>
to continue. It and other Imperial rules about local intervention are rather<BR>
like the Prime Directive in Star Trek, which has lofty philosophical ideals<BR>
involving the freedom of the culture to develop on its own without external<BR>
interference, yet also justifies not intervening to provide real and<BR>
tangible means to improve the quality of life like adequate health care,<BR>
food production technology, and disaster relief. Imperial rules of war and<BR>
local government non-interference allow the 3I to withhold the benefits of<BR>
the Imperium.<BR>
I suspect Dulinor might have been opposed to the Imperial rules of war as<BR>
well as wanting to spread the wealth and benefits of the Imperium among<BR>
member worlds. But the sources are sketchy on that subject.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:49:17 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
 <BR>
> They used American prisoners of war for *BAYONET PRACTICE*  They were<BR>
> damn lucky that CNN wasn't around when we started getting our<BR>
> prisoners back, or you might still be unable to set foot on the<BR>
> glowing remnats of Japan.<BR>
<BR>
Very true, and what they did to the Chinese in Manchuria was even <BR>
worse.<BR>
<snip><BR>
In any case, in spite of what else they did, the Japanese did not <BR>
attempt to perform a sneak attack.  Also, horrific as it may be, <BR>
they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their <BR>
own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to <BR>
be treated the same way.   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:54:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
A meson is (IIRC) a quark-antiquark pair. Since the energies cancel each<BR>
other out completely they can be plucked out of nothing without violating<BR>
any nasty physics laws. This means that nearly all of the massive numbers of<BR>
megawatts that traveller says these things use is for accelerating the meson<BR>
shot towards the target (probably using quantum tunneling 'cause of the<BR>
non-interacting with armour doohickey)<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling" <kgorling@physik.tu-berlin.de><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> works.<BR>
> As long as i know, it is a big mesonaccelerator, which blasts a<BR>
> stream of near c mesons to the target. In the books it is stated,<BR>
> that mesons do not interact with normal matter (electrons and<BR>
> baryons) but if they decay, the decayproducts would. AFAIK that is<BR>
> right, but it is said, that a mesoncannon focuses the stream, so,<BR>
> that nearly all mesons decay in the target, how is this arranged,<BR>
> for unstable particles exists a half time, the time, when half of<BR>
> the particles is decayed, so from the beginning to target and<BR>
> beyond there is a stream of the decayproducts. Only a real small<BR>
> percentage of the mesons decays within the target, as long as I<BR>
> know. So you would need really much more energy,  to inflict damage<BR>
> on the physical target, radiation of the crew is an other thema,<BR>
> and yes a meson gun would need an open end, end direct fire meson<BR>
> artellery would be useless.<BR>
><BR>
> Is there a explanation for this.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> I'm just a happy chicken from a backwood asteroid.<BR>
> gaack...<BR>
> ICQ UIN 55009348<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:04:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>Which means various carpet bombings of cities in Germany and Japan. They<BR>
>were terror bombings intended to kill civilians more than cause economic<BR>
>damage. The leaders knew this and didn't care. Further, there is<BR>
significant<BR>
>evidence that the resources expended on those bombing campaigns could have<BR>
>ended the war much sooner had they been spent on tactical weapons. The<BR>
>simple evidence that is was direct occupation and use of nuclear weapons<BR>
>that finally caused surrender is rather obvious.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I can't believe I am posting to this subject but just to put in my 2 cents.<BR>
Aside from the moral aspects, the bombing of the German cities probably<BR>
ended the war more favorably and faster for the allies and here is why.<BR>
Hitler expounded that no German city would be attacked and after the major<BR>
bombing raids he was absolutely outraged and embarrassed and completely lost<BR>
it.  The bombings themselves grew out of the /accidental/ bombing of London<BR>
by an idiot Luftwaffe aircrew, (they dropped their ordinance in the wrong<BR>
place, can't remember the exact details and not sure what happened to them<BR>
after the event). Hitler diverted his assets away from airfields and other<BR>
strategic targets after the German cities were targeted and focused on<BR>
bombing London with a purpose.  This actually allowed the RAF to regroup and<BR>
allies to shore up support and the rest is history as they say.  I am not<BR>
sure if this is what the RAF intended to be the result but it certainly had<BR>
a devastating affect. There is speculation that had Hitler not diverted his<BR>
bombings that the Germans would have knocked out the RAF in fairly short<BR>
order as they were on their last legs and invasion was not far behind.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
BTW My new web site is up, at least the main page it up, some of the<BR>
secondary pages are still under construction.<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:09:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Dave Pullen writes:<BR>
> A meson is (IIRC) a quark-antiquark pair. Since the energies cancel each<BR>
> other out completely they can be plucked out of nothing without violating<BR>
> any nasty physics laws. This means that nearly all of the massive numbers<BR>
> of megawatts that traveller says these things use is for accelerating the<BR>
> meson shot towards the target (probably using quantum tunneling 'cause of<BR>
> the non-interacting with armour doohickey)<BR>
<BR>
Ooh, wrong.  Creating mesons doesn't violate conservation of baryon number, and creating uncharged mesons doesn't violate conservation of charge, but mesons have non-zero mass and still require energy to create.  Oh, and you can't use quantum tunneling to accelerate an object, nor is it relevant to armor penetration in this case.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:08:21 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: RE: Rant and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
I apologize about the HTML goof up.  I forgot to reset my<BR>
Eudora settings after I sent a HTML doc to another work station<BR>
here at LANL.<BR>
<BR>
As far a resending, I'm just as guilty on this one for ranting,,,,,so let's<BR>
just drop it.  I just wanted to make sure we all get back to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your patience.<BR>
<BR>
The bald, overweight guy with glasses.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:16:00 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
<BR>
Doug and "Space Jens":<BR>
<BR>
Splort...snicker...aw nuts, literally, cashews sprayed on my keyboard.<BR>
<BR>
How am I gonna explain this to the Computer Security folks here?<BR>
<BR>
Anyways, I know this guy still writing in runes, though not on rocks, as<BR>
if he were writing a letter.  Says he learned this while he was a boy<BR>
in Stockholm.....I call him Dad.<BR>
<BR>
PS:  I thought they were _Danes_ at Stamford not Swedes.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:23:00 +0000 (GMT)<BR>
From: Michel R Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Colony Charters<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone on the list made up a colony charter for their games, and if so I<BR>
> would like a look at it as my players are part way through setting up a<BR>
> colony.<BR>
> What things would be in such a charter, ideas anyone?<BR>
> <BR>
> Antony<BR>
> <BR>
	When I get home I will glance at the stuff I have been amassing on<BR>
this topic for my TNEC game.  I believe I have a few documents that other<BR>
TML members have put together concerning this, as well.<BR>
<BR>
	--Michel<BR>
	(the TNEC Guy)<BR>
	http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:44:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely<BR>
wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay in X<BR>
seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a period, with a<BR>
decay curve such that half will have decayed after X seconds.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that this is really a problem. I seem to recall that the<BR>
statistical properties of particle decay are well-known (Poisson?). What you<BR>
are probably doing with a meson gun is focusing the beam to get the maximum<BR>
energy absorbed by the target, although the statistical nature of things<BR>
will also give us mesons decaying short and long of the target also. You<BR>
certainly will not get energy released in a point source, but all we need is<BR>
enough energy deposited in a small enough area to cause damage to the<BR>
target.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:42:05 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
J-Man wrote:<BR>
> Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our military<BR>
> allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
> happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
> minimal. <BR>
<BR>
How many battleships did we lose at Pearl? I can't believe that anyone with <BR>
any clue about military strategy would throw away battleships for the sake <BR>
of a small political advantage.<BR>
<BR>
> Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
> without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being a<BR>
> carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
<BR>
I think you're reversing cause and effect: we would have used battleships <BR>
more, and more effectively, in the Pacific if we'd had more of 'em.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:02:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely<BR>
> wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay in X<BR>
> seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a period, with<BR>
> a decay curve such that half will have decayed after X seconds.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't think that this is really a problem. I seem to recall that the<BR>
> statistical properties of particle decay are well-known (Poisson?).<BR>
<BR>
They are well known, but not very useful.  The highest number of particle decays will occur right in front of the barrel, and the number will decrease in an exponential manner as distances increases.  If you're shooting at a 300 meter target at 30,000 kilometers, there is no possible half-life which will result in more than 1/270,000 of the particles actually decaying within your target.<BR>
<BR>
In order to behave like a traveller meson cannon, you need something that decays in a manner which does not resemble a half-life.  If you're willing to have minimum blast energies in the multiple teraton range, a quantum black hole decaying by hawking radiation could put about 6% of the energy within the target area.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2489<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2490<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Update<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
History is Bunk<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Officers<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Colonial Charters<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Officers<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:55:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Dave Pullen" <david.pullen3@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Update<BR>
<BR>
Since this fellow sez that he is going away I'll ask this on the list<BR>
instead:<BR>
<BR>
Is this open to anyone?<BR>
<BR>
What design systems are allowed?<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have any eratta pages for FF&S2 (the T4 version)<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Neb en New, Imey er Baketu Neferwet,<BR>
Bak en Bin, Netjer en Bau.<BR>
david.pullen3@virgin.net<BR>
neterenbaiu.horemheb@ancientsites.com<BR>
Ankh, Udja, Seneb!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Black ICE" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> So far, I have received two THUDDD 12 entries.  Since I'm hitting the<BR>
> road tomorrow for San Jose and BayCon, I'm going to extend the deadline<BR>
> to 31 May 2000 for THUDDD 12 entries.  If you absolutely cannot make<BR>
> that deadline, at least touch base with me by then, so that we can work<BR>
> something out.<BR>
><BR>
> For those of you who want to see the THUDDD 12 specifications:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/thuddd12proposal.html<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:06:38 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>OK everybody, apologies for any gross errors or rudeness in my posts.  I<BR>
>really shouldn't be up at 2am reading TML.<BR>
<BR>
You haven't been rude.  I'd notice.  Everyone would have noticed.  My <BR>
physics knowledge is not up to figuring out if you've made any <BR>
errors, so you're safe from me there!<BR>
<BR>
>Will advanced technology bring a cure for this sleep disease? There <BR>
>just aren't enough hours in the day.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe you could have one of those 'operations' like the men in the <BR>
X-Files episode who hadn't slept for 28 years.  Other than that, it <BR>
would have to involve something that would overcome the psychological <BR>
effects of sleep deprivation, not just the physical ones.  Otherwise, <BR>
you're not tired, but you're also quite mad.  Definite storyline <BR>
potential there.<BR>
<BR>
>Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become cost<BR>
>effective as a replacement?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe, maybe not.  Robots may be more cost effective for some types <BR>
of operations, but even with the cost of training the men in the <BR>
battle dress you still have certain advantages that even the most <BR>
advanced robots don't have as far as the brain behind the brawn is <BR>
concerned.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:10:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
Maybe you could have one of those 'operations' like the men in the <BR>
X-Files episode who hadn't slept for 28 years.  Other than that, it <BR>
would have to involve something that would overcome the psychological <BR>
effects of sleep deprivation, not just the physical ones.  Otherwise, <BR>
you're not tired, but you're also quite mad.  Definite storyline <BR>
potential there.<BR>
>>>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
Tired and quite mad?  Who could EVER tell the difference on this list.  I actually used this in a storyline with a quite mad ex-commando.<BR>
<BR>
They don't always look as insane as they really are you know?<BR>
<BR>
Have fun.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:05:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
There has been a lot of discussion regarding historical topics (WW1, WW2, Lusitania, etc) <BR>
and so I would like to add my 0.02 credits worth.  I hope I haven't insulted everybody.<BR>
<BR>
(1)  School:  In the USA the history that we are taught in secondary school is not "objective" <BR>
history, but is designed to create patriotic citizens.  They leave out important things (like the <BR>
incarceration of Japanese citizens during WW2, and so forth).  They downplay the <BR>
contributions of other countries (USSR in WW2).  History is respun.<BR>
(2)  I think the above also occurs in other countries.<BR>
(3)  Recent Events:  While the newspapers and other media do a fair job of covering the news, <BR>
it is important to recognize that they have their biases.  It is also important that the national <BR>
security laws that govern the availability and release of information has a very important affect <BR>
on the ability of our news organizations to report "objective" news.  From my years within the <BR>
military-industrial complex I can definitely say that the news organizations have reported <BR>
certain elements as truth when in fact they were completely false.  Certain of these "false <BR>
truths" are now accepted today as common wisdom (both within the general public and the <BR>
military).<BR>
(4)  Military:  They call it indoctrination.  They are not interested in "objective" history.  They <BR>
want to create reliable, dependable, patriotic soldiers (sailors, marines, airmen).  History is <BR>
respun to support this objective.<BR>
(5)  University:  This is the one place where there is a serious attempt to research and teach <BR>
"objective" history--One of the reasons why universities are called liberal and radical.  Even <BR>
here, though, they have their biases.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It is extremely difficult to obtain "objective" history.  Many people, organizations, and <BR>
governments have a vested interest in seeing that it is their version that becomes the <BR>
commonly accepted version of history.  See JFK assassination.<BR>
<BR>
Question your sources.  Things are not always as they seem.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:15:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/23/00 6:01 PM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> WELCOME !<BR>
<BR>
Ditto!<BR>
<BR>
> Hope you enjoy the stay. Right now there is a minor flamewar going on<BR>
> (or, as it seems, dying out), but this is not the usual case.<BR>
<BR>
"It's dead, Jim. (at least I hope.)<BR>
<BR>
> Normally, we are a lot more weird ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Double Ditto!<BR>
<BR>
Inveterate Traveller scenario designer? Cool deal, maybe you should join the<BR>
TML Landgrab.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:29:50 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
<BR>
Eric T. Holmes wrote:<BR>
> Anyways, I know this guy still writing in runes, though not on rocks, as<BR>
> if he were writing a letter.  Says he learned this while he was a boy<BR>
> in Stockholm.....I call him Dad.<BR>
<BR>
We actually learned runes in 4th or 5th grade, but mostly for fun. I<BR>
have forgotten most of it by now, but it would be easy to relearn.<BR>
<BR>
> PS:  I thought they were _Danes_ at Stamford not Swedes.<BR>
<BR>
Well... look at my signature to find out where I am  :-)<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:36:02 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There has been a lot of discussion regarding historical topics (WW1, WW2, Lusitania, etc)<BR>
> and so I would like to add my 0.02 credits worth.  I hope I haven't insulted everybody.<BR>
><BR>
> (1)  School:  In the USA the history that we are taught in secondary school is not "objective"<BR>
> history, but is designed to create patriotic citizens.  They leave out important things (like the<BR>
> incarceration of Japanese citizens during WW2, and so forth).  They downplay the<BR>
> contributions of other countries (USSR in WW2).  History is respun.<BR>
<BR>
Where did you go to school?  (Countin' my lucky stars it wasn't mine).<BR>
<BR>
> (5)  University:  This is the one place where there is a serious attempt to research and teach<BR>
> "objective" history--One of the reasons why universities are called liberal and radical.  Even<BR>
> here, though, they have their biases.<BR>
><BR>
> It is extremely difficult to obtain "objective" history.  Many people, organizations, and<BR>
> governments have a vested interest in seeing that it is their version that becomes the<BR>
> commonly accepted version of history.  See JFK assassination.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there is a different point of view, i.e., "'History' is NOT objective."<BR>
The most popular entry level course, "The Experience of War", starts with<BR>
Thucydides who wrote that "History is written by the winners" to paraphrase<BR>
(even though he was actually on the losing side, IIRC, his patron was on<BR>
the winning one).<BR>
<BR>
Some of the profs in the History department at my college (Macalester College,<BR>
St. Paul, MN) used to make fun of the Anthropology department.  Why?<BR>
"Because the Anthro department thinks they can be unbiased and objective,<BR>
where the History department knows that it cannot." Next door to each other<BR>
we had a card-carrying Marxist and a card-carrying conservative Republican.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:39:31 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> How many battleships did we lose at Pearl? I can't believe that anyone with<BR>
> any clue about military strategy would throw away battleships for the sake<BR>
> of a small political advantage.<BR>
<BR>
I believe, ultimately, that we only _lost_ one, the Arizona. Most of the<BR>
other ships and all the capital ships sunk at Pearl were raised,<BR>
repaired and went back to war.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:41:47 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Officers<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Most real world militaries run at 8 - 20% officers. Below about 10%<BR>
> there aren't enough, and above about 15% there are so many that nothing<BR>
> gets done. Peacetime militaries tend to get more and more officers, and<BR>
> in wartime they get thinned out.<BR>
<BR>
How many of those officers are actually in command/leadership positions<BR>
though?  I'm sure there are plenty filling administrative positions that<BR>
don't really *need* an officer filling the role.<BR>
<BR>
When I have the ratio of 40 to 1 I was only considering company grade<BR>
officers in command/leader positions.  The ones that the PCs would have<BR>
the most interaction with while on an adventure (unless you run the type<BR>
of game where General Solo leads a small team of...).  <BR>
<BR>
A better ratio should be based on how many commissioned officers there<BR>
are on a naval vessel for comparison (assuming one is running a space<BR>
going campaign, like most do).  I have no experience and very little<BR>
knowledge of the navy, but I'm sure someone on the list could give these<BR>
figures :)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In a hypothetical military there's no reason the ratio can't be very<BR>
> different, if the officers do jobs that are currently done by NCOs, or<BR>
> vice versa. This could cause problems with too many/too few officers<BR>
> (like the Soviets had), but this is avoidable if the extra officers<BR>
> aren't given command prviledges to go with their rank (at which point<BR>
> you've effectively given warrant officers commissions without changing<BR>
> anything else).<BR>
<BR>
Now that you mention it, I think the Imperium should have far more<BR>
officers than they need.  Probably far too many, since rank is affected<BR>
by social status.  There is bound to be a large number of officers<BR>
commissioned and promoted based on social connection/status alone rather<BR>
than ability or competency.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:40:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 1:49 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, Pearl Harbor was not a sneak attack.  They clearly warned<BR>
> us.  The two versions I've heard are that either the letter announcing<BR>
> this was inadvertently ignored by the President or that it was<BR>
> purposefully ignored as a tool to get the American behind going to<BR>
> war.  I'd prefer the 2nd not to be true, but I'd certainly be willing to<BR>
> believe it was.  In any war, ugly stuff happens on every side.<BR>
<BR>
This is how I understand it as well, and I had many debates with my Grandad<BR>
over this issue. He was a veteran of the war, and held the view that "the<BR>
Japs pulled a low-down dirty trick." Even as a sneak attack, I argued that<BR>
we had our pants down, and in a time of war at that, nevermind our lack of<BR>
involvement. But I also heard that the japanese strike force was caught on<BR>
radar and the report was ignored. Anyway you cut it, I doubt it was<BR>
purposefully ignored to get the Americans behind the war, as losses were<BR>
likely to be extreme. It turned out to be devastating.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:41:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I don't think that this is really a problem. I seem to recall that the<BR>
> > statistical properties of particle decay are well-known (Poisson?).<BR>
><BR>
> They are well known, but not very useful.  The highest number of particle<BR>
decays will occur right in front of the barrel, and the number will decrease<BR>
in an exponential manner as distances increases.  If you're shooting at a<BR>
300 meter target at 30,000 kilometers, there is no possible half-life which<BR>
will result in more than 1/270,000 of the particles actually decaying within<BR>
your target.<BR>
<BR>
My understanding is that the mesons created by the Traveller meson guns are<BR>
somehow created (perhaps accelerated after creation? probably infeasible) so<BR>
that the particles are at relativistic speeds (essentially rescaling time<BR>
for the meson), so that the decay which would otherwise happen right in<BR>
front of the barrel happens inside the target.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the particles moving at high speeds will also exaggerate<BR>
any spread at the target due to the statistical nature of the decay, perhaps<BR>
too much to make the weapon useful.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:43:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Colonial Charters<BR>
<BR>
I checked out a few of the following that may give you some ideas:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/massbay.html<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but from my reading<BR>
(I still have a headache from the olde english) it seems the charter<BR>
gave broad powers to the Governor, his deputy, and their 18 assistants.<BR>
They could make any laws they needed to run the colony with British Law<BR>
as precedent.<BR>
<BR>
"soe as such Lawes and Ordinances be not contrarie or repugnant to the<BR>
Lawes and Statuts of this our Realme of England."<BR>
<BR>
I haven't found the East India Company Charter yet but that would<BR>
probably be another good source for ideas.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone on the list made up a colony charter for their games, and<BR>
if so I<BR>
> would like a look at it as my players are part way through setting up<BR>
a<BR>
> colony.<BR>
> What things would be in such a charter, ideas anyone?<BR>
><BR>
> Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:50:59 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> inquired:<BR>
<BR>
<<PS: Not being a US Citizen, I don't know this - if a<BR>
State of the Union wanted to quit, could it legally?<BR>
Isn't that what the American Civil War was about?>><BR>
<BR>
Although this should probably be answered off-list (it's bad enough I<BR>
started that whole O'Brien the Enlisted Trekker thread :) it occured to me<BR>
that there is an ObTrav, so here goes:<BR>
<BR>
Secession of a state from the federal Union has never been proven de jure.<BR>
Southern theory at the time held that since the Constitution was ratified by<BR>
states, not by the people living in them, that they should therefore be able<BR>
to pull out. It was also argued that the 10th amendment (IIRC) reserves all<BR>
rights to the states not specifically allocated to the Federal government.<BR>
The Constitution has nothing specifically prohibiting secession. which is<BR>
mute on the whole proposition. IMHO, both arguments are flawed, but the<BR>
issue has never been ruled upon by the Supreme Court, which has jurisdiction<BR>
over Constitutional law (After the Civil War, the Supreme Court issued a<BR>
ruling that said secession was in fact illegal, but IIRC the test case was<BR>
limited and the decision was considered political.)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the real cause of the conflict was the two different economic<BR>
systems, slave-based and "free" labor; without that, there would have not<BR>
been anything close to the kind of dispute. This is not to imply Northerners<BR>
were raving abolitionists any more than Southerners were despotic slavers;<BR>
just that the nature of their societies were critically opposed based on<BR>
their labor systems. This is the first ObTrav, already noted: a client state<BR>
might have slavery. The Imperium might bring pressure to end the institution<BR>
(if for no other reason than the workers one parsec away who can't compete<BR>
with slave labor) even if the CS doesn't want to join the Imperium; the<BR>
Imperium might even take over and bring the CS in by force, though that<BR>
would probably be unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
As for client state status being one-way, I'm pretty sure that's how the<BR>
Romans practiced it, and there's no reason to suppose the Imperium does<BR>
differently. It may be possible to change the agreement, but it will surely<BR>
exist at the pleasure of the Imperium, or at least as long as it's less<BR>
expensive to keep the CS than let it go...<BR>
<BR>
The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from trying.<BR>
The parallel case in the Solomani Confederation (see recent TNS posts) seems<BR>
to be on better legalistic grounds, given the nature of the Confederation.<BR>
On the other hand, the Solomani are probably going to be much more<BR>
aggressive in their response than the Imperium would be...<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:54:49 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>In particular the question of "what is the speed of psionics/telepathy<BR>
>in Traveller" arises. IMTU I have telepathy limited by the speed of <BR>
> light (since teleportation takes into account potential energy and <BR>
> gravity wells it follows..at least in my mind..that other disciplines<BR>
> should also be bound to at least pay homage to physics).  How do <BR>
> others handle this issue?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
It's never really come up.  Concentration to perform psionics just takes<BR>
a second.  As far as the actual time for the psionic effects to go from<BR>
point A to point B, it happens instantaneously to anyone perceiving it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:43:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 07:43 AM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  It's hard to see how strategic surprise was achieved (if, indeed,<BR>
>it was, which is a matter of definitions), given that the US embargo<BR>
>on oil to Japan was a de facto ultimatum, or at least appears so in<BR>
>hind-sight. An interesting question becomes whether or not that was<BR>
>realized at the time (i.e., was the USN really stupid? Or did people<BR>
>assume that the Japanese would acquiesce as they obviously weren't<BR>
>strong enough to fight a long war? Both sides being stupid isn't an<BR>
>impossibility...)<BR>
<BR>
They acvhieved strategic suprise because nobody on the American side<BR>
believed that the Japanese would dare strike directly at American soil, or<BR>
so far across the Pacific.  The mentality at Pearl Harbor was one of "this<BR>
is a rear area, safe from attack."  Oops.<BR>
<BR>
Despite the common knowledge that war was coming, a mixture of laziness and<BR>
improper planning gave the IJN the opening they needed.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:55:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 12:41 PM,  "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>My understanding is that the mesons created by the Traveller meson guns<BR>
>are somehow created (perhaps accelerated after creation? probably<BR>
>infeasible) so that the particles are at relativistic speeds (essentially<BR>
>rescaling time for the meson), so that the decay which would otherwise<BR>
>happen right in front of the barrel happens inside the target.<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, the particles moving at high speeds will also<BR>
>exaggerate any spread at the target due to the statistical nature of the<BR>
>decay, perhaps too much to make the weapon useful.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, you're both right.<BR>
<BR>
The best answer *really* is that the cannon was invented by Bob<BR>
Meson and is named for him.  Now, just *what* is deposited in the<BR>
target that isn't affected by armor, we don't know, but...<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, Bob Meson was experimenting with jump technology trying to<BR>
discover a way to bypass the "week in Jspace" and almost got it.  He<BR>
figured out a way to "jump" a charge of high-energy particles almost<BR>
instantaneously over a short distance.  It works great as a weapon.<BR>
<BR>
If you try to jump anything else, though, (like a ship) you either<BR>
slag the equipment, turn what you're "jumping" into high-energy<BR>
particles, or (usually) both. <BR>
<BR>
Experiments continue...<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:59:49 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Officers<BR>
<BR>
At 12:41 PM 05/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Now that you mention it, I think the Imperium should have far more<BR>
>officers than they need.  Probably far too many, since rank is affected<BR>
>by social status.  There is bound to be a large number of officers<BR>
>commissioned and promoted based on social connection/status alone rather<BR>
>than ability or competency.<BR>
<BR>
Not only that, but look at the craft the Navy operates.  On a single <BR>
Tigress, the pilots of the fighter wing account for 300 officers (or 600 if <BR>
the fighters are crewed by two people).  Then, add up all the 'small' ships <BR>
and SDBs of the sub 2000 ton range.  How many SDBs are there in a defended <BR>
system?  Each one will likely have 2-4 officers, even if they are O4 and below.<BR>
<BR>
Just a few cents worth of thought...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:59:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 12:39 PM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> How many battleships did we lose at Pearl? I can't believe that anyone with<BR>
>> any clue about military strategy would throw away battleships for the sake<BR>
>> of a small political advantage.<BR>
><BR>
>I believe, ultimately, that we only _lost_ one, the Arizona. Most of the<BR>
>other ships and all the capital ships sunk at Pearl were raised,<BR>
>repaired and went back to war.<BR>
<BR>
Only the Utah was back in action before 1944, and the West Virgina and two<BR>
others were total losses.  The *entire* battleship fleet was taken out of<BR>
action for two years.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:26:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our military<BR>
> allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
> happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
> minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
> without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being a<BR>
> carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but this is *not* backed up by the facts.<BR>
<BR>
Pearl harbor was but one of several places an attack was "expected".<BR>
But they did *not* know where or when an attack would occur. In fact,<BR>
they'd placed Pearl, and other bases across the Pacific on alert the<BR>
week before, because they thought an attack would happen *then*.<BR>
(They'd read some indicators properly, just jumped the gun a bit).<BR>
<BR>
Also, the US Navy *didn't* think the Carriers were as important as the<BR>
battleships until *after* Midway. <BR>
<BR>
Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge the situation by what we<BR>
know now, instead of by what they knew then.<BR>
<BR>
There *is* some inconclusive evidence that Franklin and others may have<BR>
ignored some indications. And there's no doubt that Franklin and others<BR>
*wanted* a war with Japan because that would help get us into the war<BR>
against Germany.<BR>
<BR>
But in spite of all the conspiracy theories, there's no evidence that<BR>
the attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance by anyone in the US.<BR>
And many, *many* people have spent *years* digging very hard in an<BR>
attempt to *find* such evidence.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:45:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rants and Flame Wars<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Your ancestors had ASCII?<BR>
><BR>
> *My* ancestors had to carve runes into large slabs of stone and leave<BR>
> them standing around the countryside.<BR>
><BR>
> Laptop? You wouldn't have dared to dream of such a thing...<BR>
<BR>
Nonsense! My SCA persona is Norse and has a laptop... an abacus! He<BR>
picked it up on a trading voyage down the Volga to Byzantium. It amazes<BR>
all the folks back home. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And your (and my) ancestors probably carved runes into wooden tablets<BR>
too, but those don't survive as well.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:56:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Black ICE schrieb:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
>> > > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
>> > > works.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named <BR>
>> after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate > <BR>
> normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a > <BR>
> meson gun.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
>> Mesons. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> You see, Karsten, the TML is rough terrain. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
> has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
> hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
> right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
> of course.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, decay times follow an exponential curve. They don't all decay at<BR>
the same time. They have a "half-life". That's the time it takes for<BR>
50% of the particles to decay. <BR>
<BR>
In half that time 1/4 of the particles will have decayed. In twice that<BR>
time 3/4s will have decayed.<BR>
<BR>
That means any *real* particles would be spread out over a *huge* area<BR>
as they decayed.<BR>
<BR>
The "mesons" fired by meson guns all decay at the same time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:04:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 10:36 AM,  Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>PS: Not being a US Citizen, I don't know this - if a<BR>
>State of the Union wanted to quit, could it legally?<BR>
>Isn't that what the American Civil War was about?<BR>
<BR>
The War of Southern Sessession, you mean? <eg><BR>
<BR>
Yes, and by force of arms (at least) that was settled.  A state of<BR>
the United States may not quit...although I don't think that was<BR>
actually codified.<BR>
<BR>
In the Imperium, I *believe* there were incidents of systems<BR>
leaving, but I may be wrong.  In general, I wouldn't expect to to<BR>
happen often.<BR>
<BR>
I picture Client States as running the gamut from totally dependent<BR>
on their Overlord, but not allowed to join for some reason, to fully<BR>
independent, but allied with the larger state.  Client states make<BR>
good buffers between empires.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2490<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2491<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
Re: Why meson guns don't work<BR>
LandGrab -- Mora/Mora<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Weapons Website<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:13:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU, Bob Meson was experimenting with jump technology trying to<BR>
> discover a way to bypass the "week in Jspace" and almost got it.  He<BR>
> figured out a way to "jump" a charge of high-energy particles almost<BR>
> instantaneously over a short distance.  It works great as a weapon.<BR>
<BR>
What about using this connection with jump technology to make a new weapon,<BR>
a "jump mine." You have big nuclear weapons with jump drives attached which<BR>
jump into jump space on a course which takes them nowhere, or at most a very<BR>
short distance. If a big ship happens by, so that the jump mine suddenly<BR>
becomes within the "100 diameters" gravity range of the big ship, it falls<BR>
out of jump space and detonates. You probably need a lure of some sort to<BR>
get the big ship to approach the target area, however, since space is too<BR>
big to fill with these devices. But since the jump mine is at least 100 dT<BR>
in size, its a BIG weapon. It's also virtually undetectable.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure that players can think of lots of devious ways to use this idea.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:16:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>>>>><BR>
But in spite of all the conspiracy theories, there's no evidence that<BR>
the attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance by anyone in the US.<BR>
And many, *many* people have spent *years* digging very hard in an<BR>
attempt to *find* such evidence.<BR>
<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
Hmmm....perhaps it was Yamamoto who was on the Grassy Knoll?<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place?  And how would one go about executing it?<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:26:09 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It was also argued that the 10th amendment (IIRC) reserves all<BR>
> rights to the states not specifically allocated to the Federal government.<BR>
<BR>
Just FYI: It says "powers not delegated to the United States by the<BR>
Constitution",<BR>
nothing about "specifically allocated".<BR>
<BR>
> The Constitution has nothing specifically prohibiting secession.<BR>
<BR>
Would you expect it to?  Even if it delineated the rules for leaving<BR>
the Union, wouldn't it be irrelevant since you can quit anyway?<BR>
<BR>
> (After the Civil War, the Supreme Court issued a<BR>
> ruling that said secession was in fact illegal, but IIRC the test case was<BR>
> limited and the decision was considered political.)<BR>
<BR>
Hehe.  That can be said for every decision ever made.  Doesn't make<BR>
it true.  Doesn't make it false.<BR>
<BR>
> This is the first ObTrav, already noted: a client state<BR>
> might have slavery. The Imperium might bring pressure to end the institution<BR>
> (if for no other reason than the workers one parsec away who can't compete<BR>
> with slave labor) even if the CS doesn't want to join the Imperium; the<BR>
> Imperium might even take over and bring the CS in by force, though that<BR>
> would probably be unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
of slavery.<BR>
<BR>
> The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
> silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from trying.<BR>
<BR>
It isn't really silent.  The Warrant gives the Imperium the sole power<BR>
to change the relationship with a member world.  So member worlds<BR>
have no legal authority to change the relationship.  "The Revolution<BR>
Will Not Be Televised."<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:26:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
<BR>
>One bad thing about the movie: My wife is now in love with<BR>
<BR>
>RussellCrowe. How can I compete?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I'm not worried.  My girlfriend has already seen me<BR>
throw a 220-pound black belt over my shoulder.  I admit<BR>
that I don't have Crowe's pec's however.  I guess I'll have<BR>
to work out a little harder for a few months.  (We'll<BR>
probably see it this weekend.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:32:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
"Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  In the USA the history that we are taught in secondary school is not "objective" history, but is designed to create patriotic citizens. <BR>
<BR>
This is referred to as 'commemorative history' in the history<BR>
biz.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:33:52 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 22 May 2000 21:02:13 -0400 (EDT), eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm *sure* some folks out there consider Americans arrogant. We<BR>
>aren't you know? We're kind, polite, and easy going to a<BR>
>fault...except for New Yorkers, of course. ;-p<BR>
<BR>
No, Eris, you've got it wrong - We New Yorkers (Us N'Yawkas) are<BR>
kind, polite, and easygoing to a fault: The problem is that the<BR>
rest of the country is generous, obsequious, and laid back to<BR>
_two_ faults! :)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:06:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: H&E v1.0.0 and whinging!<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>It doesn't matter whether he has a "right" to take it personally.<BR>
>>Telling people that if they don't have something positive to saty they<BR>
>>shouldn't say anything is *stupid*. It means that folks aren't going to<BR>
>>report bugs, or ask for enhancements.<BR>
><BR>
>>It's one thing to say "I'm tired of supporting this program". It's<BR>
>>another to just dump it out there with no support.<BR>
><BR>
> The program hasn't been dumped out without support. As Derrick has pointed<BR>
> out the WBD Mailing List is available for anyone to discuss any aspect of<BR>
> the program whether it be suggestions, bug reports or seeking support.<BR>
><BR>
>>Excuse me, but you *cannot* have *real* feedback with a "If you don't<BR>
>>like it, shut up" rule.<BR>
><BR>
> I have never shied away from feedback, just the opposite. The 'shut<BR>
> up'comment was addressed to those people who don't seem willing to give the<BR>
> program the chance. I think all of the members of the WBD Mailing List will<BR>
> agree that I have listened to what they have to say, and tried to help or<BR>
> implement their suggestions whenever I am able. I'll happily take criticism<BR>
> on the content of the program and its output.<BR>
><BR>
> However, what I am not willing to take criticism on is the fact that the<BR>
> program has been developed for a specific platform using a specific OS and<BR>
> utilising the capabilites of that OS to my full advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I haven't done that as much as say that *if* if wasn't so<BR>
dependent on "internet related" stuff it would be more portable. <BR>
<BR>
And I'd not be surprised to find that if the program handled some of<BR>
those display related functions internally rather than thru the broswer<BR>
related libraries, it might even be faster. After alll, code intended<BR>
to display stuff from the web doesn't *need* to be all that fast.<BR>
<BR>
But I'll freely admit that it was probably *easier* to do it that way.<BR>
<BR>
And as I noted elsewhere in the quoted message, I'd be interested in<BR>
looking at the code to see if there are any speed optimizations that<BR>
can be pulled off without too much trouble. There usually are, since<BR>
often the "obvious" way to do something is also the slowest.<BR>
<BR>
Stuff liked nested function/procedure calls eat a lot of time compared<BR>
to coding the same thing "inline". *Especially* for anything graphics<BR>
related. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:42:48 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Why meson guns don't work<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> My understanding is that the mesons created by the Traveller meson guns are<BR>
> somehow created (perhaps accelerated after creation? probably infeasible) so<BR>
> that the particles are at relativistic speeds (essentially rescaling time<BR>
> for the meson), so that the decay which would otherwise happen right in<BR>
> front of the barrel happens inside the target.<BR>
<BR>
This doesn't help. And despite my fair layman's knowledge of particle <BR>
physics, I'd been playing with Traveller meson guns for 15 years before<BR>
people on the TML cleared me up.<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration to the correct relativistic velocity can indeed make the <BR>
*average* distance traveled by the mesons before decay the "correct" <BR>
distance to reach the interior of the intended target. Unfortunately, <BR>
some of the mesons will take much longer than average to decay, and <BR>
some will decay "instantly". The decay spread is still such that, as <BR>
Anthony Jackson points out:<BR>
<BR>
> If you're shooting at a<BR>
> 300 meter target at 30,000 kilometers, there is no possible half-life which<BR>
> will result in more than 1/270,000 of the particles actually decaying within<BR>
> your target.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:02:45 -0500<BR>
From: Alex Bell <abell@atc.skytel.com><BR>
Subject: LandGrab -- Mora/Mora<BR>
<BR>
Hello Everyone!<BR>
<BR>
This is my first post to the list, I've enjoyed reading... even the flame<BR>
war...<BR>
<BR>
As a long time CT player, I have a lot of material on Mora/Mora.  Would<BR>
anyone object to my LandGrab claim on Mora and Palique/Mora?<BR>
<BR>
Be Aware: *My* Mora is not completely canon.  I checked BTC, and unlike BTC,<BR>
my Mora is not a single habitable world with four moons, but one of four<BR>
habitable moons orbiting a gas giant in the habitable zone of a G1 Star<BR>
(each with *some* inhabitants... Well, that's what I rolled ! ).  Most all<BR>
of the rest of BTC I will integrate with what I already have.  (Multiple<BR>
worlds will help with that...)  <BR>
<BR>
Will this be acceptable to the list..?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:59:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely<BR>
> wrong.  A half-life of X seconds doesn't mean that particles decay in X<BR>
> seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a period, with a<BR>
> decay curve such that half will have decayed after X seconds.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't think that this is really a problem. I seem to recall that the<BR>
> statistical properties of particle decay are well-known (Poisson?). What you<BR>
> are probably doing with a meson gun is focusing the beam to get the maximum<BR>
> energy absorbed by the target, although the statistical nature of things<BR>
> will also give us mesons decaying short and long of the target also. You<BR>
> certainly will not get energy released in a point source, but all we need is<BR>
> enough energy deposited in a small enough area to cause damage to the<BR>
> target.<BR>
<BR>
You won't get it with normal decay. The decay curve is a<BR>
*single-tailed* distribution, and exponential. <BR>
<BR>
If half-life is X, then:<BR>
	particles<BR>
time	decayed	undecayed<BR>
- -----	-------	----------<BR>
X/8	1/16	15/16<BR>
X/4	1/8	7/8<BR>
X/2	1/4	3/4<BR>
X	1/2	1/2<BR>
2X	3/4	1/4<BR>
3X	7/8	1/8<BR>
4X	15/16	1/16<BR>
<BR>
(Anybody got the relevant equations handy?)<BR>
<BR>
You are going to get a *long* spread of energy release along the beam<BR>
path. Nothing like the relatively "focused" release described in the game.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:09:42 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 12:43 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>They acvhieved strategic suprise because nobody on the American side<BR>
>believed that the Japanese would dare strike directly at American soil,<BR>
>or so far across the Pacific.  The mentality at Pearl Harbor was one of<BR>
>"this is a rear area, safe from attack."  Oops.<BR>
<BR>
>Despite the common knowledge that war was coming, a mixture of laziness<BR>
>and improper planning gave the IJN the opening they needed.<BR>
<BR>
The devasting effects of an aerial attack wheren't ingrained into<BR>
the brains of the USN's leadership *yet*, and there was something<BR>
about the configuration of Pearl Harbor that lead most everyone to<BR>
think that an air attack couldn't succeed there anyway.  <BR>
<BR>
What happened at Pearl was a surprise in many senses.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:12:37 -0500<BR>
From: Dan.Haag@midata.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
     At Pearl Harbor the battleships Arizona and Oklahoma, and the<BR>
targetship Utah were sunk permanently.  The rest of the battleships were<BR>
damaged to one extent or another.<BR>
     Of the carriers, the Saratoga was being overhauled on the west coast,<BR>
the Enterprise was delivering aircraft to Wake Island, the Ranger and the<BR>
Wasp were in the Atlantic, the Yorktown and the Lexington were running<BR>
training operations, and the Hornet was being completed.<BR>
<BR>
Dan H<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:14:23 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 01:16 PM,  "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm....perhaps it was Yamamoto who was on the Grassy Knoll?<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee! Good one!<BR>
<BR>
>I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place? <BR>
>And how would one go about executing it?<BR>
<BR>
I think you'd have to have a new weapon...or a new weapons delivery system to pull such a devestating sneak attack off. Perhaps, a capital ship killing weapon that could be carried on 15g "fighters." Perhaps, a class of ship that could pop into and out of jspace at will, instead of one week intervals. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:26:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
>I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place? <BR>
>And how would one go about executing it?<BR>
>>>>><BR>
I think you'd have to have a new weapon...or a new weapons delivery system to pull such a devestating sneak attack off. Perhaps, a capital ship killing weapon that could be carried on 15g "fighters." Perhaps, a class of ship that could pop into and out of jspace at will, instead of one week intervals. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
>>>>>>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What about the old "Black Globe Generator" trick a la "The Kuinir"<BR>
<BR>
Going in blind might really be fun.<BR>
<BR>
"Look Ma!  No sensors!"<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:43:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Brian Jenkins writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place? <BR>
> >And how would one go about executing it?<BR>
> >>>>><BR>
> I think you'd have to have a new weapon...or a new weapons delivery system<BR>
> to pull such a devestating sneak attack off. Perhaps, a capital ship killing weapon that could be carried on 15g "fighters." Perhaps, a class of ship that could pop into and out of jspace at will, instead of one week intervals.  <BR>
<BR>
Actually, sneak attacks are really easy in the Imperium.  Just map a string of kuiper belt objects in a string of minor worlds between where you start and where you want to go, and you've got a good chance of taking a complete fleet from, say, Chronor to Mora, without being detected.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:23:21 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
I can't recall where I got this impression about Mesoncannons, and it is<BR>
contradictory to most of the ideas that have been expressed so far.  Which<BR>
means Eris might like it. <g><BR>
<BR>
I was always under the impression that a mesoncannon actually fired TWO 'beams'<BR>
of mesons.  These 'beams' are fired on near parallel tragectories, but that<BR>
they cross at some predetermined distance.  Where they cross they interact with<BR>
each other and decay causing damage to surrounding matter.<BR>
<BR>
The emmiters don't need to be that far apart to avoid crossing.  And you have a<BR>
system that *does* require 'focusing'.<BR>
<BR>
All I can say is: "Don't let the streams cross!"  "Why?" "It'll be Bad(tm)."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
10:23pm up 18 days, 3:25, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:54:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (Anybody got the relevant equations handy?)<BR>
<BR>
No, but let's think about this. The usual model for radioactive decay is the<BR>
Poisson distribution, which can typically be approximated well by the Normal<BR>
distribution, with mean=variance (from the Poisson case). Note that this<BR>
model is for arrival of particles, so we have a source of particles, and<BR>
this distribution models the number of emissions.<BR>
<BR>
I think that the mean life (this is *not* half-life!) of mesons is something<BR>
like 1e-8 sec. So to get our mean decay happening at 1 light-sec of range,<BR>
we need a time dilation of about 1e8. Ouch. And this assumes that we create<BR>
mesons which are already moving this fast, so that no time is needed for<BR>
acceleration. For the time dilation we have (I guessing here - I'm at work<BR>
now, so I can't look anything up.):<BR>
<BR>
k=1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2),<BR>
<BR>
so we need a velocity darn close to c to pull this off. Somethink like c - a<BR>
few m/sec. This will take lots of energy.<BR>
<BR>
Back to the decay distribution. So if we need to dilate our time by about<BR>
1e8, we will also stretch the scale of our independent variable in the<BR>
Normal distribution. How much will this affect us?<BR>
<BR>
Aha! We know what the variance of the decay distribution is, since it came<BR>
from the Poisson distribution. So if we make the expected decay happen at R<BR>
meters, the distribution of decay also has a variance of R meters, so we<BR>
have a standard deviation of sqrt(R). For a range of 1 light-sec, this gives<BR>
a standard deviation of about 2e4 meters. So it will probably be difficult<BR>
to focus enough energy in a ship-sized area, but I think that we're in no<BR>
danger from particles decaying in our weapon or close to our ship. For the 1<BR>
light-sec range, that's over 1e4 standard deviations from the mean, where<BR>
the probability is essentially zero.<BR>
<BR>
Did I make any glaring errors?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell writes:<BR>
> I can't recall where I got this impression about Mesoncannons, and it is<BR>
> contradictory to most of the ideas that have been expressed so far.  Which<BR>
> means Eris might like it. <g><BR>
<BR>
Probably out of some prior attempt to rationalize meson guns.<BR>
> <BR>
> I was always under the impression that a mesoncannon actually fired TWO<BR>
> 'beams' of mesons.  These 'beams' are fired on near parallel tragectories,<BR>
> but that they cross at some predetermined distance.  Where they cross they<BR>
> interact with each other and decay causing damage to surrounding matter.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, this require particles which interact strongly with one another (or the beams will just pass through each other) but do not interact with normal matter.  This is also a requirement for meson screens.  Mesons don't interact with one another any more than they do with normal matter (though as it happens, they aren't all that good at passing through normal matter anyway).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:57:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The emmiters don't need to be that far apart to avoid crossing.  And you<BR>
have a<BR>
> system that *does* require 'focusing'.<BR>
><BR>
> All I can say is: "Don't let the streams cross!"  "Why?" "It'll be<BR>
Bad(tm)."<BR>
<BR>
I think that you are confusion meson guns with unlicensed particle<BR>
accelerators, particularly the man-portable versions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:02:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
><BR>
> But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
> has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
> hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
> right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
> of course.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Mr Meson's Mesons *do* react with normal matter, albeit relatively<BR>
weakly (else how do meson communications work...). Thus they are accelerated<BR>
at relativistic speeds to minimised decay before reaching the target, but<BR>
superdense and other such materials react with them sufficiently to reduce<BR>
their speed. they then become sufficiently slowed that they reach<BR>
sub-relativistic speed inside the target, and spontaneously decay by many<BR>
half-lives before they reach the hull on the other side.<BR>
<BR>
This would account for all the canonical effects. To use meson comms you<BR>
would need a small SD chamber in the receiver that would cause a measurable<BR>
decay, but not sufficient to cause explosive or radioactive effects outside<BR>
the chamber. This measured decay can transmit information...<BR>
<BR>
YMMV,<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr0.02<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:05:59 -0500<BR>
From: "GOC Prime" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Well you have me there..No evidence.  I was just thinking about the<BR>
situation logically.  All those signs and NO ONE thought an attack was<BR>
coming?  Hard to believe.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:26 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our<BR>
military<BR>
> > allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
> > happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
> > minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
> > without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre<BR>
being a<BR>
> > carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, but this is *not* backed up by the facts.<BR>
><BR>
> Pearl harbor was but one of several places an attack was "expected".<BR>
> But they did *not* know where or when an attack would occur. In fact,<BR>
> they'd placed Pearl, and other bases across the Pacific on alert the<BR>
> week before, because they thought an attack would happen *then*.<BR>
> (They'd read some indicators properly, just jumped the gun a bit).<BR>
><BR>
> Also, the US Navy *didn't* think the Carriers were as important as the<BR>
> battleships until *after* Midway.<BR>
><BR>
> Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge the situation by what we<BR>
> know now, instead of by what they knew then.<BR>
><BR>
> There *is* some inconclusive evidence that Franklin and others may have<BR>
> ignored some indications. And there's no doubt that Franklin and others<BR>
> *wanted* a war with Japan because that would help get us into the war<BR>
> against Germany.<BR>
><BR>
> But in spite of all the conspiracy theories, there's no evidence that<BR>
> the attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance by anyone in the US.<BR>
> And many, *many* people have spent *years* digging very hard in an<BR>
> attempt to *find* such evidence.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:10:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Just my .02 Cr on Meson Cannons.<BR>
<BR>
My Head Hurts!<BR>
<BR>
Man I am glad God invented hand waving.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(Soon I will have my own house and I can make my own area to work on Traveller!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:08:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
>>For all you visitors to TravellerCentral <www.travellercentral.com>, I<BR>
have<BR>
>>moved the weapons section to it's own website.  you can now visit the<BR>
>>Mercenary's Guide to Weapons at http://weapons.travellercentral.com.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I've only posted about 20% of what I have so far, so stay tuned.<BR>
><BR>
>And for those of you interested in a ReaLife(tm) weapons sales website,<BR>
>check out Ballistica Maximus at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.angelfire.com/biz/troopsupport/<BR>
><BR>
>Their available stock includes handguns, assault rifles, explosives, rocket<BR>
>launchers (man-portable & vehicle-mounted), mortars and heavier artillery<BR>
>pieces, combat aircraft, and armored vehicles (including T-55s), plus ammo<BR>
>of different capabilities. Combat vehicles come fully armed and<BR>
>combat-ready.<BR>
>They even have some patrol boats for sale though weaponry is optional (but<BR>
a<BR>
>lovely selection is available).<BR>
><BR>
>A really useful site if you're a third-world nation with some cash to blow.<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav:  An interesting precursor to Interstellarms, LIC. Could be useful<BR>
as<BR>
>a template.<BR>
><BR>
>David<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Go to the link below for my rip-off of this very fine site. Eventually I<BR>
plan to link to a catalog of Traveller equipment, but meanwhile it's just an<BR>
"advertisement" for this Regina based company.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/carlino/ReginaMax.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > (Anybody got the relevant equations handy?)<BR>
> <BR>
> No, but let's think about this. The usual model for radioactive decay is<BR>
> the Poisson distribution, which can typically be approximated well by the<BR>
> Normal distribution, with mean=variance (from the Poisson case). Note that<BR>
> this model is for arrival of particles, so we have a source of particles,<BR>
> and this distribution models the number of emissions.<BR>
<BR>
This models the situation in which you have a known source of radiation which should produce a known average number of decays per unit time; the actual number of decays will match to the bell curve.  However, in the case of a fixed initial population decaying over time, the model you want is an exponential decay term, where the number of particles remaining will be on average (initial population) * e^(time/avg lifespan), and the decay rate will on average be equal to the number of particles existing at that time divided by the average lifespan (though the actual number of decays, as opposed to the predicted number, should in fact follow a normal probability curve).<BR>
<BR>
> Did I make any glaring errors?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  You started from incorrect axioms.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:47:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions <BR>
<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
>We have this great framed poster on the wall of our living<BR>
<BR>
>room. Titled "Penises of the Animal Kingdom", <BR>
<BR>
There is a poem about the penis bone, which many mammals<BR>
have.  I don't recall the title or the author, but I do<BR>
recall that the penis bone of the walrus is over two feet<BR>
long, and, as an American walrus once remarked, speak<BR>
softly and carry a big stick.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2491<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2492<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Do you remember: <BR>
RE: Religious Dictatorships<BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
Double talk<BR>
Re: LandGrab -- Mora/Mora<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
RE:Landgrab<BR>
Pearl Harbor (was Re: the Will to Win)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:46:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This models the situation in which you have a known source of radiation<BR>
which should produce a known average number of decays per unit time; the<BR>
actual number of decays will match to the bell curve.  However, in the case<BR>
of a fixed initial population decaying over time, the model you want is an<BR>
exponential decay term, where the number of particles remaining will be on<BR>
average (initial population) * e^(time/avg lifespan), and the decay rate<BR>
will on average be equal to the number of particles existing at that time<BR>
divided by the average lifespan (though the actual number of decays, as<BR>
opposed to the predicted number, should in fact follow a normal probability<BR>
curve).<BR>
<BR>
The exponential distribution gives essentially the same result. It also has<BR>
the same value for both the mean and variance, so that the range to the<BR>
target for a meson beam will also be the spread of the beam.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:48:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Do you remember: <BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
>I guess I'll have to provide citations for everything. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the world, counsellor.  See generally Murphy's<BR>
Law, codified at many web sites.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships<BR>
<BR>
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu><BR>
>Subject: RE: Religious Dictatorships (Theorys for TL<BR>
>retardations)<BR>
<BR>
>David Weber did that in "Heirs of Empire".  In a<BR>
>religious, anti-tech society, all new inventions had to be<BR>
<BR>
>approved by a priest to make sure <BR>
<BR>
John ("Day of the Triffids") Wyndham had a similar<BR>
arrangement in one of his books.  After some sort of<BR>
holocaust that causes a lot of mutations, every human,<BR>
plant, or animal must be approved as not being an<BR>
abomination before it will be allowed to continue to exist.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:52:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 13:00 -0400 24/5/00, "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>Which means various carpet bombings of cities in Germany and Japan. They<BR>
>were terror bombings intended to kill civilians more than cause economic<BR>
>damage. The leaders knew this and didn't care. Further, there is significant<BR>
>evidence that the resources expended on those bombing campaigns could have<BR>
>ended the war much sooner had they been spent on tactical weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Coventry happened before Dresden.  It doesn't make it right, but it <BR>
makes it more understandable.<BR>
<BR>
Please can you define what you mean by tactical weapons? The bombs <BR>
used during the strategic bombing attacks could be argued to be <BR>
tactical.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:38:45 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 13:00 -0400 24/5/00,  "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
> >About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
>Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
<BR>
Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:54:21 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
><BR>
> From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
><BR>
> >Everything you say makes sense.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Thank.<BR>
><BR>
> >In fact, I'd take it further - each of the 'Merchants Co-op' kicks in Cr<BR>
5<BR>
> >000 a month, and the Co-op uses that money to lease warehouse space and<BR>
an<BR>
> >office and put a broker on retainer on each world.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Sounds good, but I should have put in there, that when you put in half<BR>
> your profits, that the money is used first for expenses, such as leasing<BR>
> warehouse space (or buying a warehouse, which IMHO, is a better idea than<BR>
> leasing), leasing or buying offices (of course you could put your offices<BR>
> into the warehouse), & putting a broker on retainer (again your broker<BR>
could<BR>
> run your offices & warehouse on a planet).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The reason I'd prefer a fixed fee is the problem of "Which set of books ?".<BR>
You could imagine the issues if one captain kept using co-op resources, and<BR>
reporting either losses or small profits.<BR>
<BR>
> >They also pool their profits, and as they can buy up their mortgages, so<BR>
> >that they are paying themselves rather than a bank.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Now that would take major money, as IIRC, a Type A Free Trader costs<BR>
> around 35 Megacredits, but after a while, they could do that.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The only thing you should be using a Type A for is jumping to and from an<BR>
asteroid belt or other in-system point. Long distance trade is where the<BR>
profit is, and that means speed (NB the Merchant Prince trade system, that<BR>
transmitted thru to MT and T4 is FUBAR).<BR>
<BR>
> >The question is therefore 'why doesnt it always happen this way ?'.<BR>
><BR>
>     Always.<BR>
><BR>
> >The first answer is that the Free Trader model we all know and love just<BR>
> >isnt viable for most market niches. Long distance trade by Free Traders<BR>
is<BR>
> >viable in my opinion (there is unlikely to be another load of Tarsus Wine<BR>
> >going to Mora to compete with yours), but short-haul work is going to be<BR>
> >dominated by corporate concerns (why should we ship with you, rather than<BR>
> >with someone who has an office on the planet, and will still be there<BR>
next<BR>
> >year ?). If you are a colony or asteroid bases' sole trading ship, then<BR>
> sure<BR>
> >(you need to get a balance of cargos over a year, so you cant just go to<BR>
> and<BR>
> >from the same small set of worlds).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Maybe, maybe not.  I see Megacorps as only going between Class A (TL<BR>
> 11+)& some Class B (TL 11+) Starports, not between anything else.  And,<BR>
that<BR>
> would be their market niche.  And, if you put up an office & have been<BR>
> around for a long time, I think that most people would deal with you.<BR>
>     Also, most Megacorps are going to be shipping stuff between offices,<BR>
> plants, mines, etc.  Any spare cargo space will be used for shipping local<BR>
> shipments.<BR>
<BR>
Well, Oberlindes (in the SM it *is* a Megacorp) and Tukera are explicitly<BR>
shipping companies. I'd expect them to be represented on most worlds with<BR>
significant trade (get GT:Far Trader. The framework the Gravity Trade System<BR>
sets up makes it worth the cost).<BR>
<BR>
If there is profit, the question has to be asked "Why isnt everybody doing<BR>
this ?".<BR>
<BR>
>     For example, Planet A (Starport C, TL 8, Industrial) would not have a<BR>
> market for its goods, as it cannot build its own starships, but in order<BR>
to<BR>
> get off planet credit, it needs to ship its products of world, & it cannot<BR>
> compete with TL 9 products.  So what do they do?<BR>
<BR>
They find a niche where they are profitable. Goods sold as luxury goods do<BR>
not need to be the most efficient at doing their job, becasue they are sold<BR>
for reasons other than efficiency.<BR>
<BR>
For example, what about exporting F16s to private collectors, who want the<BR>
'real flying experience' ? Sure, you put a state-of-the-art autopilot in it,<BR>
but I'm sure that with a good enough sales team you can find bored young<BR>
nobles who like the idea of riding several tons of aluminium, lo-tech<BR>
composites and plastics while burning kiloliters of hydrocarbons.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, you could probably sell them places in your Top Gun school (which is<BR>
carefully kept for this purpose, even though your COACC is now using<BR>
third-hand TL11 grav interceptors).<BR>
<BR>
Other options include handcrafted musical instruments, knick-knacks and so<BR>
on.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, if a Trade Coastal<BR>
> was smart it would come in, put in some offices & ship this planets<BR>
products<BR>
> to other worlds that are around TL 8.  I am sure a TL 5 world would pay<BR>
> extra for TL 8 products.  And, if that TL 5 world is an Ag world, than you<BR>
> have a second good customer.  You ship industrial products from a TL 8<BR>
world<BR>
> to the TL 5 world, & agricultural products to the TL 8 world.  Now, the<BR>
> profits may not be huge, but if you work it right you can market it right,<BR>
> vacations on the TL 5 Ag world to the TL 8 Ind World, & taking students<BR>
from<BR>
> the TL 5 Ag world to learn on TL 8 Ind world.<BR>
<BR>
Let me tell you the story of the best airline in Africa. During the late and<BR>
unlamented Stalinist regime in Ethiopia, their airline was kept running like<BR>
it had been, as it was a source of essential foriegn currencies.<BR>
<BR>
Unlike every other airline in Africa, it did not focus it's routes on<BR>
Europe - it had carved out a niche in cross-Africa travel. If you were a<BR>
businessman in Lagos and you wanted to fly to Kenya, you could either go to<BR>
Europe and back, or you could fly with Ethiopia Airlines and go reasonably<BR>
direct. And it mananged to make a healthy profit in perhaps the worst<BR>
operating environment in the world ("Guys, you know that if we dont hit our<BR>
quarterly profit target, we're all likely to be shot ? Good").<BR>
<BR>
The other point to note is that TL5 Ag worlds are going to be excellent<BR>
sources of 'Natural, Organic' foods for high income people on wealthier<BR>
worlds - sure, you might be paying a whole Cr 6 for a 1 kilo chicken, but<BR>
it's a live, natural, free-range chicken from an verdant, natural,<BR>
unpolluted world ... and there is a certain class of customer who will pay<BR>
extra for that image.<BR>
<BR>
>     As time goes on, the TL 5 Ag world will soon hit TL 6, then TL 7, then<BR>
> TL 8.  Once both worlds are at the same TL, they then could pool resources<BR>
> to get to TL 9.  And, if a Trade Coastal is there, they could get the<BR>
lion's<BR>
> share of the shipping off both worlds.  Also, once both worlds are at TL<BR>
9,<BR>
> then you could buy starships from them.<BR>
<BR>
Probably not. They are better off building spare parts, rather than trying<BR>
to put it all together as a package.<BR>
<BR>
>     Also, you could increase the TL 8 Ind world to higher TLs by bringing<BR>
in<BR>
> examples of higher TL products.<BR>
>     There are manythings that you could do with just this minor situation.<BR>
<BR>
Economic development is hard, long and expensive. It also tends to fail when<BR>
pushed from outside, unless everything is done right.<BR>
<BR>
<stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
>     I was thinking like that.  The Patrol Cruiser escorts important<BR>
> shipments by single free traders, or large shipments when all 4 are<BR>
> together.  The Scouts search out new markets & carry mail.  The players<BR>
are<BR>
> planning to buy a subsidized merchant using a world that they have regular<BR>
> trade with to help them.<BR>
<BR>
Don't underestimate the impact of local governments on all this. They can be<BR>
very good friends, or very bad enemies. How corrupt are they ? Do any of<BR>
them need to import military goods or personnel, and will exchange long-term<BR>
leases or trade advantages ? What about local tariff policy ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:00:44 GMT<BR>
From: "Erick ..." <siniypiva@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Double talk<BR>
<BR>
>  Also, horrific as it may be,<BR>
>they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their<BR>
>own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to<BR>
>be treated the same way.<BR>
<BR>
  Huh?!?! how is this relevant? It was still terrificly horrible. How can <BR>
you find ANY justification for something as horrible as TORTURE to <BR>
SURRENDERED peoples. they were non combatants. I am totally perplexed..<BR>
<BR>
  -erick<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:49:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: LandGrab -- Mora/Mora<BR>
<BR>
At 04:02 PM 5/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Hello Everyone!<BR>
<BR>
>Will this be acceptable to the list..?<BR>
<BR>
Just label it as non-canonical<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:53:58<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:16 PM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place?<BR>
And how would one go about executing it?<BR>
<BR>
Been done.  The 5FW opened with the Zhodani appearing at Ruie, one jump<BR>
from Regina.  Quite a shock.<BR>
<BR>
A combination of deep space caches and making use of under-populated<BR>
systems can get you deep into enemy territory.  It takes years to plan of<BR>
course, but I'm of the opinion that the 4FW wasn't planned, but the 5th was.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:04:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:05 AM 1/18/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Well you have me there..No evidence.  I was just thinking about the<BR>
>situation logically.  All those signs and NO ONE thought an attack was<BR>
>coming?  Hard to believe.<BR>
<BR>
Take a look at the situation:<BR>
<BR>
1. Arrogance on the part of the Americans.  They were so sure that the<BR>
Japanese couldn't attack Pearl in strength, and that any attack that was<BR>
launched would be ripped to shreds, that they relaxed.  The popular, if<BR>
racist, opinion was that the "Japs" couldn't fly, couldn't fight, and would<BR>
wet themselves if somebody took a shot at them.<BR>
<BR>
2. The timing of the attack, early on a Sunday morning, was brilliant.<BR>
Very few ships had enough crew available to man guns, let alone get underway.<BR>
<BR>
3. A well thought-out plan of attack that maximized the damage done to the<BR>
fleet.  The pilots had been trained to recognize and attack specific ships,<BR>
to avoid having one ship escape unharmed while another took dozens of<BR>
unnecessary hits.<BR>
<BR>
4. This was the first time in history that such an assault had been<BR>
launched.  Nobody knew what to expect.  Nobody, but nobody, realized the<BR>
offensive power of the aircraft carrier.<BR>
<BR>
As for the readiness?  Let's put it this way:<BR>
<BR>
I am going to shoot you.  You know this, so you put yourself on guard, but<BR>
for weeks I don't show up.  You keep jumping when you *think* you see me,<BR>
but it's always a false alarm.  Eventually, you start to relax a little.<BR>
You let precautions slide.  You stop believing in the threat as a threat,<BR>
but merely an annoyance.  That's when I strike.  That's what the people on<BR>
Oahu were facing.  They had been jumping for months, with nothing ever<BR>
happening.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:22:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>In particular the question of "what is the speed of psionics/telepathy<BR>
>>in Traveller" arises. IMTU I have telepathy limited by the speed of <BR>
>> light (since teleportation takes into account potential energy and <BR>
>> gravity wells it follows..at least in my mind..that other disciplines<BR>
>> should also be bound to at least pay homage to physics).  How do <BR>
>> others handle this issue?<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> It's never really come up.  Concentration to perform psionics just takes<BR>
> a second.  As far as the actual time for the psionic effects to go from<BR>
> point A to point B, it happens instantaneously to anyone perceiving it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, consider that at the 100 diameter limit for Earth, light takes<BR>
4.67 seconds one way. That means that a psi communicating with someone<BR>
on planet would have to wait 9.33 seconds between asking a question and<BR>
getting a reply if psi is subject to light speed limits. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, even Earth to Moon would involve 1.5 second round-trip lag.<BR>
<BR>
Every 150,000 km means 1 second of lag (.5 seconds out, .5 seconds<BR>
back, for a total of 1 second).<BR>
<BR>
So if psi phenomena *do* obey the light speed limit it *would* have<BR>
been noticed.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall it psi has the range for interplanetary work or not. If<BR>
it does, then the speed will have been measured for sure. We are<BR>
talking about minutes to *hours* of lag time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:12:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE:Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, what's needed is a concordance/cross-index. <BR>
<BR>
Let's get *serious* about it.  What we need is a<BR>
*relational database* containing every bit of information<BR>
on the Spinward Marches with at least a field for<BR>
source/citation.<BR>
<BR>
*Sorry*, Leonard, but I can't *help* using asterisks when I<BR>
respond to your posts.<BR>
<BR>
*--*Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:17:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Pearl Harbor (was Re: the Will to Win)<BR>
<BR>
Just a side comment:<BR>
<BR>
Somehow I doubt that, even if the Japanese ultimatum/declaration HAD been <BR>
delivered in a timely manner, Americans would have appreciated that their <BR>
bombing the snot out of Pearl less than an hour later was all proper and <BR>
"legal."  That bit of bureaucratic error just added insult to injury.<BR>
<BR>
I challenge you to a duel, and while you're naming the place and weapons, <BR>
my second in the bushes with a sniper rifle blows your head off.  Hardly <BR>
sporting.  (And yes, I know war is anything but.)<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry had written:<BR>
>> Y'all will find it amusing that some of the ultra-right<BR>
>>wing loonies complained about the film because it had<BR>
>>Jews being heroic.<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>Sheesh! How do they think Israel won those wars with the<BR>
>Arabs? Or pulled off the raid on Entebbe?<BR>
<BR>
Haven't the Knights Templar (who are Christians) been<BR>
running Israel's military and especially its elite forces<BR>
since at least 1948?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:33:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?<BR>
<BR>
I vote for His Imperial Majesty's Own Ir'klan Commandos<BR>
(from Menorb/Regina). <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:37:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>When you make a film in a country, you make it for the <BR>
>people in that country, not for the people in other <BR>
>countries.<BR>
<BR>
There are some exceptions.  Aki Kaurismki's Leningrad<BR>
Cowboys Go America was, it seems to me, made for a Finnish<BR>
audience, although set and filmed almost entirely in the<BR>
United States.  Bernardo Bertolucci has said that he made<BR>
1900 specifically for an American audience, although it is<BR>
set and filmed in Italy (and has never been popular here).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:42:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
Is anyone aware of how US territories work?  Isn't there some kind of<BR>
contractual agreement that has a time limit and has to ratified again at the<BR>
end of that period.  I might be completely off base here.  Also, it begs the<BR>
earlier questions as to can either or neither cancel the status?<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:44:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
<BR>
>    Doug, do you really mean that Sweden, the makers of <BR>
>really good porn, were a world power at one time?  Geez, <BR>
>when did they find the time?<BR>
>>Wake me up when the barbarians are at the city gates.<BR>
>    One thing, Doug, we are barbarians, it takes<BR>
>barbarians to be a world power.<BR>
<BR>
Sweden and the Swedes (or proto-Swedes) have been world<BR>
powers a couple of times.  The Swedish empire of the 1500s<BR>
to 1700s dominated northern European trade, until the Great<BR>
Northern War led to the destruction of Sweden's army in the<BR>
middle of Russia and Russia ascended to hegemony of the<BR>
Baltic region.  In the scale of those days, that made<BR>
Sweden a world power.  It was on the scale of Spain,<BR>
England, and France, for example.  No power could project<BR>
force anywhere in the world the way a modern superpower<BR>
does.<BR>
<BR>
Before Sweden became a nation-state, the Vikings from there<BR>
travelled east across Finland and Russia and down the<BR>
Volga, building an extensive trade empire between Turkey<BR>
and Sweden.  The Vikings are of course one of our prime<BR>
examples of a barbarian culture.  Ah, those were the days.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:51:13 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/24/00 at 12:41 PM,  "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >My understanding is that the mesons created by the Traveller meson<BR>
> >guns are somehow created (perhaps accelerated after creation?<BR>
> >probably infeasible) so that the particles are at relativistic speeds<BR>
> >(essentially rescaling time for the meson), so that the decay which<BR>
> >would otherwise happen right in front of the barrel happens inside<BR>
> >the target.<BR>
> <BR>
> >On the other hand, the particles moving at high speeds will also<BR>
> >exaggerate any spread at the target due to the statistical nature of<BR>
> >the decay, perhaps too much to make the weapon useful.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, you're both right.<BR>
> <BR>
> The best answer *really* is that the cannon was invented by Bob<BR>
> Meson and is named for him.  Now, just *what* is deposited in the<BR>
> target that isn't affected by armor, we don't know, but...<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU, Bob Meson was experimenting with jump technology trying to<BR>
> discover a way to bypass the "week in Jspace" and almost got it.  He<BR>
> figured out a way to "jump" a charge of high-energy particles almost<BR>
> instantaneously over a short distance.  It works great as a weapon.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you try to jump anything else, though, (like a ship) you either<BR>
> slag the equipment, turn what you're "jumping" into high-energy<BR>
> particles, or (usually) both.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, and with somewhat less handwaving, perhaps a <BR>
neutrino-like particle was discovered which can easily pass through <BR>
normal matter, but which annihilates itself if hit with it's antiparticle. <BR>
 Then, a "Meson Gun" becomes a device which shoots this particle <BR>
and its anti-particle in two separate beams which converge at the <BR>
target point.  Therefore, the only explosion is at the target point.  <BR>
The only change which would make is that Meson Guns would now <BR>
need two beam emitters, perhaps each 1/2 the mass and volume of <BR>
the ordinary one's.  No physical laws need be broken...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com    <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:29:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 13:00 -0400 24/5/00,  "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>> >About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
>>Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
><BR>
>Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom,<BR>
<BR>
    He was trying to flame Penguin Boy/Doug Berry.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:50:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trade Coastals/Trade Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>>     Sounds good, but I should have put in there, that when you put in<BR>
half<BR>
>> your profits, that the money is used first for expenses, such as leasing<BR>
>> warehouse space (or buying a warehouse, which IMHO, is a better idea than<BR>
>> leasing), leasing or buying offices (of course you could put your offices<BR>
>> into the warehouse), & putting a broker on retainer (again your broker<BR>
>could<BR>
>> run your offices & warehouse on a planet).<BR>
<BR>
>The reason I'd prefer a fixed fee is the problem of "Which set of books ?".<BR>
>You could imagine the issues if one captain kept using co-op resources, and<BR>
>reporting either losses or small profits.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True, but then you never let in someone who you do not trust.  Trade<BR>
Coastals were generally made up of family members.  And, if you screwed over<BR>
the Trade Coastal, well you would end up in the bay.<BR>
    But, then again you could do this.<BR>
<BR>
>> >They also pool their profits, and as they can buy up their mortgages, so<BR>
>> >that they are paying themselves rather than a bank.<BR>
>><BR>
>>>>     Now that would take major money, as IIRC, a Type A Free Trader<BR>
costs<BR>
>> around 35 Megacredits, but after a while, they could do that.<BR>
<BR>
>The only thing you should be using a Type A for is jumping to and from an<BR>
>asteroid belt or other in-system point. Long distance trade is where the<BR>
>profit is, and that means speed (NB the Merchant Prince trade system, that<BR>
>transmitted thru to MT and T4 is FUBAR).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Then once you get the cash together you buy Far Traders then.<BR>
<BR>
>>     Maybe, maybe not.  I see Megacorps as only going between Class A (TL<BR>
>> 11+)& some Class B (TL 11+) Starports, not between anything else.  And,<BR>
>that<BR>
>> would be their market niche.  And, if you put up an office & have been<BR>
>> around for a long time, I think that most people would deal with you.<BR>
>>     Also, most Megacorps are going to be shipping stuff between offices,<BR>
>> plants, mines, etc.  Any spare cargo space will be used for shipping<BR>
local<BR>
>> shipments.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, Oberlindes (in the SM it *is* a Megacorp) and Tukera are explicitly<BR>
>shipping companies. I'd expect them to be represented on most worlds with<BR>
>significant trade (get GT:Far Trader. The framework the Gravity Trade<BR>
System<BR>
>sets up makes it worth the cost).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, I cannot see Oberlindes or Tukera going to every system in the SM.<BR>
I can see them hitting all of the major systems.<BR>
<BR>
>If there is profit, the question has to be asked "Why isnt everybody doing<BR>
>this ?".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Could it be due to the fact that not everyone has a Free Trader sitting<BR>
in their back yard?<BR>
<BR>
>>     For example, Planet A (Starport C, TL 8, Industrial) would not have a<BR>
>> market for its goods, as it cannot build its own starships, but in order<BR>
>to<BR>
>> get off planet credit, it needs to ship its products of world, & it<BR>
cannot<BR>
>> compete with TL 9 products.  So what do they do?<BR>
><BR>
>They find a niche where they are profitable. Goods sold as luxury goods do<BR>
>not need to be the most efficient at doing their job, becasue they are sold<BR>
>for reasons other than efficiency.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True.<BR>
<BR>
>For example, what about exporting F16s to private collectors, who want the<BR>
>'real flying experience' ? Sure, you put a state-of-the-art autopilot in<BR>
it,<BR>
>but I'm sure that with a good enough sales team you can find bored young<BR>
>nobles who like the idea of riding several tons of aluminium, lo-tech<BR>
>composites and plastics while burning kiloliters of hydrocarbons.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course, until one of them crashes.  Bored young nobles have families,<BR>
& those families have both lawyers & assassians on call.  I would hate to be<BR>
the guy who sold the F16 to that kid, as they would either sue me, kill me,<BR>
or both.<BR>
<BR>
>Heck, you could probably sell them places in your Top Gun school (which is<BR>
>carefully kept for this purpose, even though your COACC is now using<BR>
>third-hand TL11 grav interceptors).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, more money comming in, that way.<BR>
<BR>
>Other options include handcrafted musical instruments, knick-knacks and so<BR>
>on.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Of course.<BR>
<BR>
>Let me tell you the story of the best airline in Africa. During the late<BR>
and<BR>
>unlamented Stalinist regime in Ethiopia, their airline was kept running<BR>
like<BR>
>it had been, as it was a source of essential foriegn currencies.<BR>
><BR>
>Unlike every other airline in Africa, it did not focus it's routes on<BR>
>Europe - it had carved out a niche in cross-Africa travel. If you were a<BR>
>businessman in Lagos and you wanted to fly to Kenya, you could either go to<BR>
>Europe and back, or you could fly with Ethiopia Airlines and go reasonably<BR>
>direct. And it mananged to make a healthy profit in perhaps the worst<BR>
>operating environment in the world ("Guys, you know that if we dont hit our<BR>
>quarterly profit target, we're all likely to be shot ? Good").<BR>
><BR>
>The other point to note is that TL5 Ag worlds are going to be excellent<BR>
>sources of 'Natural, Organic' foods for high income people on wealthier<BR>
>worlds - sure, you might be paying a whole Cr 6 for a 1 kilo chicken, but<BR>
>it's a live, natural, free-range chicken from an verdant, natural,<BR>
>unpolluted world ... and there is a certain class of customer who will pay<BR>
>extra for that image.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    True, and of course so will health food nuts.<BR>
<BR>
>>     As time goes on, the TL 5 Ag world will soon hit TL 6, then TL 7,<BR>
then<BR>
>> TL 8.  Once both worlds are at the same TL, they then could pool<BR>
resources<BR>
>> to get to TL 9.  And, if a Trade Coastal is there, they could get the<BR>
>lion's<BR>
>> share of the shipping off both worlds.  Also, once both worlds are at TL<BR>
>9,<BR>
>> then you could buy starships from them.<BR>
><BR>
>Probably not. They are better off building spare parts, rather than trying<BR>
>to put it all together as a package.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Maybe, maybe not.  If you buy a few ships from them, you will have a<BR>
good working relationship, when things turn sour, such as when a bored young<BR>
noble crashes his F16.  You might need a bolt-hole to hid in.<BR>
<BR>
>>     Also, you could increase the TL 8 Ind world to higher TLs by bringing<BR>
>in<BR>
>> examples of higher TL products.<BR>
>>     There are manythings that you could do with just this minor<BR>
situation.<BR>
><BR>
>Economic development is hard, long and expensive. It also tends to fail<BR>
when<BR>
>pushed from outside, unless everything is done right.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, if you let the locals do, but bring them stuff they need to do it<BR>
with, then you have the best of both worlds.<BR>
<BR>
>>     I was thinking like that.  The Patrol Cruiser escorts important<BR>
>> shipments by single free traders, or large shipments when all 4 are<BR>
>> together.  The Scouts search out new markets & carry mail.  The players<BR>
>are<BR>
>> planning to buy a subsidized merchant using a world that they have<BR>
regular<BR>
>> trade with to help them.<BR>
><BR>
>Don't underestimate the impact of local governments on all this. They can<BR>
be<BR>
>very good friends, or very bad enemies. How corrupt are they ? Do any of<BR>
>them need to import military goods or personnel, and will exchange<BR>
long-term<BR>
>leases or trade advantages ? What about local tariff policy ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Right now, the local governments are very good friends.  The players<BR>
have found the right people in the right places to help them.<BR>
    As for corruption, they are no more corrupt than any other government.<BR>
    As they are all part of the 3I, the 5FW is over, & the rebellion has not<BR>
started, & one world exports TL 8 Mercs, there really is no need to import<BR>
military good & personnel.  As for trade advantages, well the TL 8 world has<BR>
a abundance of metals needed to make Jump Drives in an asteroid belt & as<BR>
one player is playing a belter (without a seeker), the players have<BR>
negotiated ownership of the asteroid belt.<BR>
    Local Tariffs are currently at 10 to 15%.  As the players are the only<BR>
trade company servicing these worlds they will slowly go down as volume of<BR>
trade goes up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2492<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2493<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
acronyms<BR>
RE: Gladiator<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Heaven and Hell<BR>
Re: Weapons Website<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
Fifth Frontier War Politics (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
Re: Imperial Nobility Questions <BR>
Re: Will to Win<BR>
Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Double talk<BR>
Re: Landgrab<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:59:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Is there a list somewhere of the common acronyms used on the TML.  I must<BR>
admit that I am lost on a few of them.  Please enlighten me!<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:10:20 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>It'd be nice to see one from the point of the defenders of<BR>
>Constantinople.<BR>
<BR>
SPI did a very enjoyable wargame about the siege of<BR>
Constantinople.  I wonder if I still have a copy?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:58:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch writes:<BR>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
> >- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFC51E.69E6FE20<BR>
> >Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
> > charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
> >Hi I'm just testing this works and I thought I'd introduce myself.<BR>
> >My name is Ben Aaronovitch, occassional author, lapsed script writer, =<BR>
> film student and inveterate Traveller scenario designer.<BR>
> >Look forward to my first messages.<BR>
> <MIME stuff snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> Welcome to the list!  If I may offer some advice: MIME makes a<BR>
> mess in the digest version of the TML, using plain text is much<BR>
> better.<BR>
> <BR>
> :)<BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about that. I'm not doing it deliberately. I'm using Outlook Express<BR>
can anyone advise as how to 'unMIME' or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:46:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/24/00 at 10:36 AM,  Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
<ERIS wrote><BR>
> In the Imperium, I *believe* there were incidents of systems<BR>
> leaving, but I may be wrong.  In general, I wouldn't expect to to<BR>
> happen often.<BR>
><BR>
> I picture Client States as running the gamut from totally dependent<BR>
> on their Overlord, but not allowed to join for some reason, to fully<BR>
> independent, but allied with the larger state.  Client states make<BR>
> good buffers between empires.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect Imperial response to succession would depend on the location<BR>
and strategic significance of the system in question. Without IN protection<BR>
systems on the frontier could expect to receive 'attention' from corsairs<BR>
Aslan land fleets and the like. If no local pirates take advantage the<BR>
Imperium<BR>
could always covertly arrange some.<BR>
<BR>
Systems in the Empire's interior could face a dramatic downturn in vital<BR>
trade<BR>
as the SPA downgrades the starport from IV to III or closes the highport for<BR>
'maintanence'. TAS may even declare the system an amber zone.<BR>
<BR>
Given that most 'popular' bread and butter political issues are devolved<BR>
down<BR>
to the system level anyway its hard to see political leaders getting mass<BR>
popular<BR>
support for succession from  the general populace.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:14:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Zho Arrogance Re: America vs Europe?<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 21:02:13 -0400 (EDT), eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm *sure* some folks out there consider Americans arrogant. We<BR>
> >aren't you know? We're kind, polite, and easy going to a<BR>
> >fault...except for New Yorkers, of course. ;-p<BR>
><BR>
> No, Eris, you've got it wrong - We New Yorkers (Us N'Yawkas) are<BR>
> kind, polite, and easygoing to a fault: The problem is that the<BR>
> rest of the country is generous, obsequious, and laid back to<BR>
> _two_ faults! :)<BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
You know everybody kept telling me how rude and arrogant New Yorkers<BR>
were but when I went there I found them perfectly polite. If you were polite<BR>
to them they were polite to you. I also found them friendly and helpful.<BR>
<BR>
Mind you, I'm a Londonder so perhaps my standards are different.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:59:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/23/00 6:01 PM, jenry023@student.liu.se issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > WELCOME !<BR>
><BR>
> Ditto!<BR>
<BR>
Thank you very much.<BR>
<BR>
> Inveterate Traveller scenario designer? Cool deal, maybe you should join<BR>
the<BR>
> TML Landgrab.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
And what is the TML Landgrab?<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:20:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 04:29 PM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>At 13:00 -0400 24/5/00,  "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>>> >About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
>>>Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
<BR>
>Dom,<BR>
<BR>
>    He was trying to flame Penguin Boy/Doug Berry.<BR>
<BR>
And just marked himself. <shrug><BR>
<BR>
This seems to happen every six months. You think the list is manic-depressive with a six month cycle or something?<BR>
<BR>
Nah, it's time for school to let out, *that's* what it is.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:28:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
>>>Alternatively, and with somewhat less handwaving, perhaps a<BR>
neutrino-like particle was discovered which can easily pass through<BR>
normal matter, but which annihilates itself if hit with it's antiparticle.<BR>
 Then, a "Meson Gun" becomes a device which shoots this particle<BR>
and its anti-particle in two separate beams which converge at the<BR>
target point.  Therefore, the only explosion is at the target point.<<<<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ooh, I like this!  A neutrino-antineutrino beam.  And there is some sort<BR>
of relationship between mesons and neutrinos, isn't there? <scratches<BR>
head, nope can't remember>  <BR>
<BR>
BTW, do all of these two-beam ideas remind anyone else of Ender's Game and<BR>
the "Dr. Device" weapon? :-)  <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:40:23 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Heaven and Hell<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2459<BR>
<BR>
>The French are the chefs, the British the policemen and <BR>
<BR>
I've heard it as follows:  In heaven, the cooks are French,<BR>
the police are British, the lovers are Italian, the<BR>
mechanics are German, and it's all organized and run by the<BR>
Swiss.  In hell, the cooks are British, the police are<BR>
German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and<BR>
it's all organized and run by the Italians.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:43:30 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons Website<BR>
<BR>
Terry C wrote:<BR>
>Go to the link below for my rip-off of this very fine site. Eventually I<BR>
>plan to link to a catalog of Traveller equipment, but meanwhile it's just an<BR>
>"advertisement" for this Regina based company.<BR>
><BR>
>http://members.home.net/carlino/ReginaMax.htm<BR>
<BR>
Interesting, although hard on the eyes with that background.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:44:19 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
>From: tim@premier.net<BR>
<BR>
>I have been keeping my mouth shut, because Doug does a<BR>
>good job defending America with a sense of hunor as well. <BR>
<BR>
>But Doug is right and if he was near by I would High Five <BR>
>him for this.  Both of my fathers served in the U.S. <BR>
>military and risked their life so we that is Americans <BR>
>could watch our stupid films.  <BR>
<BR>
I'm with you guys and won't say any more on this subject<BR>
except that I only had one father, even though he served in<BR>
both theaters, and the other father .... wait a minute what<BR>
do you mean "both of my fathers"?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:47:04 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
>  >>>>>><BR>
>Maybe you could have one of those 'operations' like the men in the<BR>
>X-Files episode who hadn't slept for 28 years.  Other than that, it<BR>
>would have to involve something that would overcome the psychological<BR>
>effects of sleep deprivation, not just the physical ones.  Otherwise,<BR>
>you're not tired, but you're also quite mad.  Definite storyline<BR>
>potential there.<BR>
>>>>>>>>>><BR>
><BR>
>Tired and quite mad?  Who could EVER tell the difference on this list.<BR>
<BR>
Too true<BR>
<BR>
>  I actually used this in a storyline with a quite mad ex-commando.<BR>
><BR>
>They don't always look as insane as they really are you know?<BR>
><BR>
>Have fun.<BR>
><BR>
>Brian<BR>
<BR>
That's the problem - the REALLY crazy ones are always later described <BR>
by their neighbours as a "nice quiet young man".  And the truly <BR>
dangerous and evil villains are the ones that look average and <BR>
harmless.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:47:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
<BR>
>Hmm, to me it always seemed like the Americans being <BR>
>slightly paranoid in this respect. I have never heard of <BR>
>any "European", German or French plans  to invade America <BR>
>during the last 100 years, apart from US wargames, movies,<BR>
<BR>
>etc.<BR>
<BR>
100 years seems an arbitrarily short time frame, especially<BR>
given that the French invaded Mexico just over 100 years<BR>
ago!  That, coupled with the collapse of the Soviet threat<BR>
and the development of a united Europe with decent public<BR>
transit, has a lot of us quite reasonably concerned about<BR>
the future.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War Politics (was Re: America vs Europe?)<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>Subject: Re: America vs Europe? (was Save Yourselves)<BR>
<BR>
>Hey, on a Traveller subject...is it generally accepted <BR>
>reasoning that Zhodani don't really want to take 3I <BR>
>territories, just keep them at bay, and so all the <BR>
>"Frontier Wars" are really just slaps to halt the <BR>
>Imperium's advance and keep it in place?<BR>
<BR>
On this subject, what do we think the Zhodani do when they<BR>
conquer a world during the Fifth Frontier World?  <BR>
<BR>
Destroy infrastructure? all or only some? which parts get<BR>
priority? <BR>
<BR>
Destroy starports? probably not; too useful to the invading<BR>
force.<BR>
<BR>
Destroy or seize starships, civil and/or military?<BR>
<BR>
Destroy Psionics Institutes or help them? or just "out"<BR>
them so that when the Imps return, they'll destroy them? (I<BR>
assume that the Zhodani don't support the development of<BR>
psionics in the Imperium as that would devalue one of their<BR>
big strategic advantages.)<BR>
<BR>
What about people, like the intelligentsia, the<BR>
psionicists, the civil and military leaders?  Ignore them;<BR>
whack them; what?<BR>
<BR>
Seize any nifty stuff of higher than Zhodani normal tech<BR>
level? or destroy it?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:06:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Zhodani slapping<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
>This reminds me of an aborted 'illuminated' campaign I was<BR>
<BR>
>going to start for my brother and some friends.  <BR>
<BR>
You have a sick and twisted mind, counsellor.  I'm looking<BR>
forward to gaming with you when you're here.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:09:33 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Nobility Questions <BR>
<BR>
on 5/24/00 3:47 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> <BR>
>> We have this great framed poster on the wall of our living<BR>
> <BR>
>> room. Titled "Penises of the Animal Kingdom",<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a poem about the penis bone, which many mammals<BR>
> have.  I don't recall the title or the author, but I do<BR>
> recall that the penis bone of the walrus is over two feet<BR>
> long, and, as an American walrus once remarked, speak<BR>
> softly and carry a big stick.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Oosik, I think it's called.  Popular with many knife makers for handle<BR>
material.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:18:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
on 5/24/00 3:52 PM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 13:00 -0400 24/5/00, "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
>> Which means various carpet bombings of cities in Germany and Japan. They<BR>
>> were terror bombings intended to kill civilians more than cause economic<BR>
>> damage. The leaders knew this and didn't care. Further, there is significant<BR>
>> evidence that the resources expended on those bombing campaigns could have<BR>
>> ended the war much sooner had they been spent on tactical weapons.<BR>
> <BR>
> Coventry happened before Dresden.  It doesn't make it right, but it<BR>
> makes it more understandable.<BR>
<BR>
And Churchill knew about Coventry before hand.  This war stuff is awfully<BR>
complex.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:25:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
I got to thinking about this and decided to look up the Hanseatic<BR>
League and spent a couple hours browsing the history and geography.<BR>
You know this isn't Traveller, but it would be an absolutely<BR>
*wonderful* setting for roleplaying.<BR>
<BR>
You have dozens of small cities along an enclosed sea with a very<BR>
ragged coastline.  The cities make there living from trade, not<BR>
only with each other, but with towns down the rivers that drain into<BR>
the enclosed sea. <BR>
<BR>
You have trade, piracy, poor navigation, storms, multiple ethnic<BR>
and religions and all forms of politics to deal with.  There are<BR>
dozens of small states and independent towns all fighting,<BR>
competing, and intreging with with each other.<BR>
<BR>
This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:31:59 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com (bloo) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>>I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
of slavery.<<<<BR>
<BR>
Probably, but not necessarily always true. I imagine the situation would be<BR>
similar to the British during the 19th Century; they attacked the slave<BR>
trade (at least the trans-atlantic kind), but that didn't stop them from<BR>
forming relationships with slave nations (like the US). And didn't India<BR>
have slavery somewhere? The Empire was very big.<BR>
<BR>
Really, though, the proper model for Client States is probably the Romans.<BR>
Of course, they tended to bring their client states into the Empire in time,<BR>
using it as a carrot to keep them in line. Hmmm...might the Imperium also<BR>
offer/withdraw citizenship to individuals or nations on a client state<BR>
without making the CS a part of the Imperium? (The Romans did things like<BR>
that.) That would be an excellent carrot/club.<BR>
<BR>
> The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant<BR>
seems<BR>
> silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from<BR>
trying.<BR>
<BR>
>>>It isn't really silent.  The Warrant gives the Imperium the sole power<BR>
to change the relationship with a member world.  So member worlds<BR>
have no legal authority to change the relationship.  "The Revolution<BR>
Will Not Be Televised."<<<<BR>
<BR>
Serves me right for not checking the document more closely!<BR>
<BR>
Does Imperial political theory recognize the "Right of Revolution" that<BR>
American political theory does? (One could stretch this idea to include<BR>
Hiroshi's usurpation of the powers of the Terran Confederation. Maybe. If<BR>
you were Hiroshi :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:39:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Double talk<BR>
<BR>
on 5/24/00 4:00 PM, Erick ... at siniypiva@hotmail.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also, horrific as it may be,<BR>
>> they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their<BR>
>> own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to<BR>
>> be treated the same way.<BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?!?! how is this relevant? It was still terrificly horrible. How can<BR>
> you find ANY justification for something as horrible as TORTURE to<BR>
> SURRENDERED peoples. they were non combatants. I am totally perplexed..<BR>
<BR>
I think the point is that our sense of rules of war grows out of western<BR>
culture, i.e. human life has intrinsic value.  A different culture may have<BR>
different ideas.  If you perceive that your enemy is a subhuman brute, why<BR>
not treat them as such?<BR>
<BR>
Further, this 'war ethic' is a fairly recent idea even for the west.  Until<BR>
at least the Napoleonic wars it was considered fair to loot a city that<BR>
didn't surrender (rape, murder, etc).  And consider the colonial powers'<BR>
treatment of 'savages' in the 19th century.  One was expected to to treat<BR>
other whites decently, but 'savages'? The London times commenting on the<BR>
Colt firearms on display at the Crystal Palace described them as a "new<BR>
method of vaccination" for the "rude tribes who yet encumber the wilderness<BR>
with their presence."<BR>
<BR>
We won't even mention the US treatment of native Americans.<BR>
<BR>
In many eastern countries, there is little value placed on life.  On could<BR>
certainly argue that the Japanese code of bushido promulgated a cult of<BR>
death.  Much easier understand than the Nazi's extermination of 15 million<BR>
jews, slavs etc.  This was the country of Goethe and Beethoven after all.<BR>
<BR>
Playing devil's advocate, one could argue 'what right do we westerners have<BR>
to enforce our moral and ethical codes on others?.  Of course the answer is<BR>
'because we can'.<BR>
<BR>
Just my 2 centicredits.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:43:06 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
on 5/24/00 4:12 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> <BR>
>> Actually, what's needed is a concordance/cross-index.<BR>
> <BR>
> Let's get *serious* about it.  What we need is a<BR>
> *relational database* containing every bit of information<BR>
> on the Spinward Marches with at least a field for<BR>
> source/citation.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
And I just happen to have MySQL running on my Solaris box.  Now if I can<BR>
just find the time.  Any volunteers out their who know Mysql and PHP?<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:48:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
> That's the problem - the REALLY crazy ones are always later described<BR>
> by their neighbours as a "nice quiet young man".  And the truly<BR>
> dangerous and evil villains are the ones that look average and<BR>
> harmless.<BR>
> <BR>
> Red<BR>
<BR>
Hey, Blaelok was a really snappy dresser.  The really dangerous villans look<BR>
and act like nice guys/gals -- until they screw you, that is.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:32:56 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
At 10:23 PM 5/24/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>I can't recall where I got this impression about Mesoncannons, and it is<BR>
>contradictory to most of the ideas that have been expressed so far.  Which<BR>
>means Eris might like it. <g><BR>
><BR>
>I was always under the impression that a mesoncannon actually fired TWO <BR>
>'beams'<BR>
>of mesons.  These 'beams' are fired on near parallel tragectories, but that<BR>
>they cross at some predetermined distance.  Where they cross they interact <BR>
>with<BR>
>each other and decay causing damage to surrounding matter.<BR>
><BR>
>The emmiters don't need to be that far apart to avoid crossing.  And you <BR>
>have a<BR>
>system that *does* require 'focusing'.<BR>
><BR>
>All I can say is: "Don't let the streams cross!"  "Why?" "It'll be Bad(tm)."<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
>10:23pm up 18 days, 3:25, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't know where you got that impression, but that is the same way I <BR>
thought Meson Guns worked.  I know that I have read the 'Meson Canon', but <BR>
in my mind I always thought the same as you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:37:44 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:58 PM 5/24/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Tod Glenn schrieb:<BR>
>[snip]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become <BR>
> cost<BR>
> > effective as a replacement.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd say so, and not only because of the direct cost of a milbot vs. the<BR>
>cost of a battle dress(many dog-sized warbots would be much cheaper),<BR>
>but also the indirect cost of loosing soldiers and having to tell that<BR>
>to the media. "The Imperial Forces report no casualties except a few<BR>
>attack robots. The area is secured." (and who in the media will care for<BR>
>the exact numbers in such a case?)<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
>of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
>Condfederation, on the other hand... </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
Solomani...No.<BR>
Think Hiver and their Bruisers (?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>BTW: Has anyone done a modular Robot design system (similar to the GT<BR>
>ship design system) for GURPS: Robots? That book is a bit too detailed<BR>
>for my personal taste...<BR>
><BR>
>CU,<BR>
><BR>
>Ingo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2493<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2494<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
RE: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
Favorite Histories (was Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels)<BR>
Hanseatic League<BR>
Re: Hanseatic League<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:34:52 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 04:04 PM 5/24/00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>At 01:05 AM 1/18/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>4. This was the first time in history that such an assault had been<BR>
>launched.  Nobody knew what to expect.  Nobody, but nobody, realized the<BR>
>offensive power of the aircraft carrier.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Second time in history. The Japanese were wondering if such an attack was <BR>
possible. Then in 1940, British torpedo bombers (from the Ark Royal, IIRC) <BR>
managed to sink several Italian cruisers moored in a secured port. This was <BR>
a event the Americans ignored. They continued to believe that Pearl Harbor <BR>
was too shallow for air-dropped torpedoes. Or that a carrier-bourne <BR>
dive-bomber could carry a bomb heavy enough to penetrate a battleship's armor.<BR>
<BR>
The United States. Home of the "If we didn't invent it, it can't be <BR>
important" syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:00:31 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
>  > -----Original Message-----<BR>
>  > From: VonRammen [mailto:von_rammen@email.msn.com]<BR>
><BR>
>  > On the other hand, the British comic Eddie Izzard has pointed out<BR>
>  > (correctly, IMHO) that the villains in American movies always<BR>
>  > have English<BR>
>  > accents, because the US won the Revolutionary War. And the<BR>
>  > French, who came<BR>
>  > to the aid of the Americans, are always portrayed as swinging<BR>
>  > Latin lovers<BR>
>  > :)<BR>
><BR>
>Haven't watched 'Jack of All Trades' yet, have we?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Which has to be one of the most historically inaccurate<BR>
protrayals of all time.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:14:37 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves - ENOUGH!!<BR>
<BR>
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> <BR>
<BR>
> I'm with you guys and won't say any more on this subject<BR>
<BR>
> except that I only had one father, even though he served in<BR>
<BR>
> both theatres, and the other father .... wait a minute what<BR>
<BR>
> do you mean "both of my fathers"?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Both my real father, who I only meet 3 years ago, and my <BR>
stepfather of 20 years served in the Airforce.  Both put in more then <BR>
their twenty years.  One was a bomb expert in the Pacific.  The <BR>
other was in communications working with radios and <color><param>8000,0000,0000</param>satellites </color><FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</param><BR>
<BR>
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param><FontFamily><param>Arial</param>, Post Attack Command.  I just learned how to spell from them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<nofill><BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:12:45 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
>What makes you say that multi-system polities are not allowed within the<BR>
>Imperium? I know a lot of people claim that to be so, but I know of no<BR>
>canonical reference that says so. OTOH it is, as you said, canonical that<BR>
>one Imperial planet can own another. It is also canonical that the<BR>
>Imperium has created several multi-world polities of their own (the Antarean,<BR>
>Solomani and Vegan autonomous regions).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This may come as a shock, but I agree with Hans. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Isn't Vilia/Garda-Vilis a multi system polity?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:14:21 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
J-man writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our military<BR>
>  allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack would<BR>
>  happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
>  minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
>  without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being <BR>
a<BR>
>  carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
<BR>
An grand-uncle of mine was on the Nevada during Pearl Harbor. He saw the <BR>
Arizona explode. He helped retrieve bodies from the harbor after the attack <BR>
was over. Please tell me again how the damage was minimal.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:22:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
> > That's the problem - the REALLY crazy ones are always later described<BR>
> > by their neighbours as a "nice quiet young man".  And the truly<BR>
> > dangerous and evil villains are the ones that look average and<BR>
> > harmless.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Red<BR>
><BR>
>Hey, Blaelok was a really snappy dresser.  The really dangerous villans look<BR>
>and act like nice guys/gals -- until they screw you, that is.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
>killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
>--<BR>
>Tod Glenn<BR>
>mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
>http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
And he's dead....right?......RIGHT??<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:19:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
On 24 May 00, at 23:02, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
> ><BR>
> > But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
> > has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> > the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
> > hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
> > right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
> > of course.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps Mr Meson's Mesons *do* react with normal matter, albeit relatively<BR>
> weakly (else how do meson communications work...).<BR>
<BR>
By having a small Meson screen inside.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:29:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: America vs Europe (Save Yourself)<BR>
<BR>
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>Haven't watched 'Jack of All Trades' yet, have we?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Which has to be one of the most historically inaccurate<BR>
>protrayals of all time.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No better or worse than Xena or Hercules.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:31:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Failure to attribute -  was Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>>>> >About what I figured. This conversation is over.<<BR>
>>>>Right, because you don't know how to read.<BR>
>>>Please can you attribute who you are responding to?<BR>
>>    He was trying to flame Penguin Boy/Doug Berry.<BR>
><BR>
>And just marked himself. <shrug><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I know, & I thought I was bad, but samwise is worse than I am.<BR>
<BR>
>This seems to happen every six months. You think the list is<BR>
manic-depressive with a six month cycle or something?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Could be.<BR>
<BR>
>Nah, it's time for school to let out, *that's* what it is.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Maybe, maybe not.  Of course it could be time for the Hertics to rise.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:35:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I got to thinking about this and decided to look up the Hanseatic<BR>
>League and spent a couple hours browsing the history and geography.<BR>
>You know this isn't Traveller, but it would be an absolutely<BR>
>*wonderful* setting for roleplaying.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Wouldn't it just?<BR>
<BR>
>You have dozens of small cities along an enclosed sea with a very<BR>
>ragged coastline.  The cities make there living from trade, not<BR>
>only with each other, but with towns down the rivers that drain into<BR>
>the enclosed sea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Makes sense, each city could produce only one or two things well,<BR>
therefore trade is your only option.<BR>
<BR>
>You have trade, piracy, poor navigation, storms, multiple ethnic<BR>
>and religions and all forms of politics to deal with.  There are<BR>
>dozens of small states and independent towns all fighting,<BR>
>competing, and intreging with with each other.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sounds like the Wilds from TNE.<BR>
<BR>
>This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Doesn't it though?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:06:20 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I got to thinking about this and decided to look up the Hanseatic<BR>
> League and spent a couple hours browsing the history and geography.<BR>
> You know this isn't Traveller, but it would be an absolutely<BR>
> *wonderful* setting for roleplaying.<BR>
<BR>
Yes the League is one of my favorite ME history subject.  I also <BR>
like Norman Sicily (no body studies this to much).  I am reading an <BR>
interesting book right now  History in Geographic Perspective the <BR>
other France.  By Edward Whiting Fox<BR>
<BR>
Though it only touches on both of these, it provides an interesting <BR>
view of the development of Europe, espically France.  It postulates <BR>
two early socities in Europe, an agrculture centeral authority, and a <BR>
democratic dispersed commerical Atlantic trade community.  The <BR>
second is made up of the old League and NW Europe.<BR>
<BR>
Though I dont agree with everything, it is real interesting argunment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> You have dozens of small cities along an enclosed sea with a very<BR>
> ragged coastline.  The cities make there living from trade, not<BR>
> only with each other, but with towns down the rivers that drain into<BR>
> the enclosed sea. <BR>
> <BR>
> You have trade, piracy, poor navigation, storms, multiple ethnic<BR>
> and religions and all forms of politics to deal with.  There are<BR>
> dozens of small states and independent towns all fighting,<BR>
> competing, and intreging with with each other.<BR>
> <BR>
> This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Its kinda called Grayhawk espically around Grayhawk city and the <BR>
Free Holds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:10:57 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
Russell B. wrote;<BR>
>How many battleships did we lose at Pearl? I can't believe that anyone with<BR>
any clue about military strategy would throw away battleships for the sake<BR>
of a small political advantage.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually given American psychology (The Shot heard 'round the world!<BR>
Remember the Alamo! Remember the Maine! Remember Pearl Harbor!) if I had<BR>
absolutely no morals and could sacrifice my own soldiers in such an utterly<BR>
depraved manner, I would do exactly that because of the incredible moral<BR>
advantage I would gain.  Even Yamamoto said the attack had merely "woken a<BR>
sleeping giant"<BR>
The majority of the U.S. still did not give a flying hoot about the war or<BR>
any of the people fighting until after the Japanese launched a surprise<BR>
attack. That more than anything else drove the war effort, helping the U.S.<BR>
gear up for total war.<BR>
<BR>
>I think you're reversing cause and effect: we would have used battleships<BR>
more, and more effectively, in the Pacific if we'd had more of 'em.<<BR>
<BR>
Not really. They were useful for shore bombardment, but almost all naval<BR>
battles were decided by carriers. Of course, that wasn't known at the start<BR>
of the war. But then again, the battleships at Pearl Harbor were barely<BR>
before obsolescence. (Which doesn't by any stretch justify sacrificing the<BR>
men on them, but does explain why a government that ignored the Holocaust<BR>
would be willing to sacrifice the ships.)<BR>
<BR>
Doug G wrote;<BR>
>An grand-uncle of mine was on the Nevada during Pearl Harbor. He saw the<BR>
Arizona explode. He helped retrieve bodies from the harbor after the attack<BR>
was over. Please tell me again how the damage was minimal.<<BR>
<BR>
I think he meant in a strategic context. Only a government flunky like those<BR>
who thought up MAD or a military officer who only thinks of the "big<BR>
picture" could conceive of any casualties like that as "minimal".<BR>
It reminds me of a Pentagon briefing during Desert Shield when the Iraqis<BR>
staged one of their raids. He was discussing how the casualties were<BR>
"minimal" and you could see him reading the audience and knowing the<BR>
reporters didn't understand him so he controlled himself and explained. Any<BR>
casualties are no good, but given what could have happened they were rather<BR>
low.   (Which they pretty much were.)<BR>
I think that should always be taken as a given in any such discussion and<BR>
any comments that contradict it should be taken as being from an observers<BR>
abstracted viewpoint.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:11:29 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote;<BR>
>Actually, no.  They said it was wrong & kept saying it was wrong, but it<BR>
was the only way to win.  And, sometimes you have to break the rules to beat<BR>
something so evil.<<BR>
<BR>
So as long as you feel bad about it, anything is allowed?<BR>
As for the second, I'd buy that if the Allies were fighting because the Axis<BR>
was evil and not simply in competition.<BR>
<BR>
>Gee, I think this is turning into a flame.<<BR>
<BR>
No, I can do better. See below.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody wrote;<BR>
>I can't believe I am posting to this subject but just to put in my 2 cents.<BR>
Aside from the moral aspects, the bombing of the German cities probably<BR>
ended the war more favorably and faster for the allies and here is why.<BR>
Hitler expounded that no German city would be attacked and after the major<BR>
bombing raids he was absolutely outraged and embarrassed and completely lost<BR>
it.  The bombings themselves grew out of the /accidental/ bombing of London<BR>
by an idiot Luftwaffe aircrew, (they dropped their ordinance in the wrong<BR>
place, can't remember the exact details and not sure what happened to them<BR>
after the event). Hitler diverted his assets away from airfields and other<BR>
strategic targets after the German cities were targeted and focused on<BR>
bombing London with a purpose.  This actually allowed the RAF to regroup and<BR>
allies to shore up support and the rest is history as they say.  I am not<BR>
sure if this is what the RAF intended to be the result but it certainly had<BR>
a devastating affect. There is speculation that had Hitler not diverted his<BR>
bombings that the Germans would have knocked out the RAF in fairly short<BR>
order as they were on their last legs and invasion was not far behind.<<BR>
<BR>
So you say the strategic bombing of England was an accident and a strategic<BR>
mistake but you don't accept that the strategic bombing of Germany was a<BR>
mistake also? I find that odd. Further, you don't mention that while the<BR>
Luftwaffe was bled dry trying to bomb England into submission, losses among<BR>
Allied strategic bombing crews were also hideously high until long range<BR>
fighters were developed to escort them to the targets in the German<BR>
heartland.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (SD Mooney) wrote;<BR>
>Coventry happened before Dresden.  It doesn't make it right, but it<BR>
makes it more understandable.<<BR>
<BR>
Not really. The nukes dropped on Japan were an unknown factor and thus makes<BR>
their use understandable. ("Its just a bigger bomb so we only need 1 instead<BR>
of 5000, right?") Having seen the devastation of Coventry and the loss of<BR>
civilian life, to willingly inflict such shows a serious lack of humanity.<BR>
Justice is one thing, vengeance another. But would you really eat the<BR>
cannibal who ate your buddy ? Some things cost you too much.<BR>
<BR>
>Please can you define what you mean by tactical weapons? The bombs<BR>
used during the strategic bombing attacks could be argued to be<BR>
tactical.<<BR>
<BR>
Strategic means operations at the corps or higher level with troops or (in<BR>
this case) aimed at the support and infrastructure of the enemy. Attacking<BR>
factories, roads, ports, mines and the like are all "strategic" level<BR>
actions. Tactical means operations at division level or lower or (in this<BR>
case again) direct battlefield use of weapons. While the individual bombs<BR>
and even bombers used for strategic bombing missions could be used for<BR>
tactical missions, they are not  particularly well suited for it, the<BR>
bombers especially. Examples: the B-52 is a strategic bomber. The A-10 is a<BR>
tactical bomber. A B-52 could be used to drop bombs on a tank battalion, but<BR>
would either be guessing or have to come in so low as to be excessively<BR>
vulnerable. An A-10 would likewise not be the best choice for rubbling a<BR>
city.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote;<BR>
(Despite the conversation being over. Oh well...)<BR>
>And which nation pioneered smart weapons technology so we wouldn't have to<BR>
do that again?<<BR>
<BR>
And still misses regularly with it?<BR>
<BR>
>The only demand was that the Japanese renounce militarism.  Ever been to<BR>
Japan?  I spent every weekend for the better part of year.  Japanese<BR>
culture is alive and well.<<BR>
<BR>
The demand was to remove the Emperor from the head of the Japanese<BR>
government and religion. Which may very well have been the one thing<BR>
standing in the way of peace before the nukes were dropped.<BR>
And Japanese culture now is not what it was before the war. Significant<BR>
American cultural concepts have been introduced, not to mention the<BR>
reduction of the Emperor. How would a Catholic country feel if told the only<BR>
way they would be allowed to have peace would be to deny the Pope as head of<BR>
their church? How do the Tibetans feel knowing the Chinese will always<BR>
occupy them and they can not acknowledge the Dalai lama as head of their<BR>
faith? And having done so, would they ever be the same afterwards?<BR>
Oh right I forgot, they attacked one military base by surprise. Burn them in<BR>
nuclear fire until they no longer exist.<BR>
<BR>
>We never were at war with the Soviet Union.<<BR>
<BR>
Sarcasm is obviously beyond your comprehension. I will try and remember<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
>Ah, so we get to the personal attacks!<BR>
<BR>
Son, I served in the US Army for over a decade, have a BS in Modern<BR>
History, am working on my Masters in 20th Century Military History, and am<BR>
a paid writer.  You, on the other hand, can't even remember where you get<BR>
these bizarre claims of yours.<<BR>
<BR>
Punk, you started with them and seem bound and determined to continue with<BR>
them at any cost. Your choice. Had you actually bothered to read the rest of<BR>
my response to your moronic invitation you would have seen I have no need to<BR>
visit any war memorial as I have on sitting in my home to someone closer to<BR>
me than anyone whose name I'd see n some monument. As for you experience, it<BR>
obviously taught you little to nothing. I know a number of people with<BR>
similar experience who more than agree with me so your opinion is of no<BR>
concern to me. BS in history? You certainly know how to spew the BS and have<BR>
found others willing to pay you for it. So what? They still sell copies of<BR>
Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto.<BR>
What is obvious it that you are still caught up in the patriotism of a child<BR>
who just read the first passage in his first history book. True patriotism<BR>
is more than blindly accepting anything and everything your country has<BR>
done. It involves being mature enough to accept the mistakes your country<BR>
has made and be willing to publicly acknowledge them so they can never be<BR>
repeated. Whatever else you may or may not have done you haven't learned<BR>
that. When you have, or when you are ready to learn, come on back and I will<BR>
be glad to talk or teach you about any of it. Until then, you aren't fit to<BR>
use the word "Son" when addressing me as the person who did was infinitely<BR>
more a man and more a patriot than you could ever hope to be.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:52:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
At 06:59 PM 5/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Is there a list somewhere of the common acronyms used on the TML.  I must<BR>
>admit that I am lost on a few of them.  Please enlighten me!<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: In My Traveller Universe.  This is how I run my games, which may be<BR>
different from the official history.<BR>
<BR>
OTU: Official Traveller Universe.  The story as written in published sources.<BR>
<BR>
CT: Classic Traveller.  The little black book (LBB) period, 1977-1987.<BR>
<BR>
MT: MegaTraveller.  The second version of Traveller<BR>
<BR>
TNE: Traveller: The New Era.  Third edition.<BR>
<BR>
T4: Marc Miller's Traveller.  4th edition, with major problems.<BR>
<BR>
T4.1: The bug-squished rules, available several places on the net.<BR>
<BR>
T5: The next edition, which Marc is writing as we speak.<BR>
<BR>
GT: GURPS Traveller.  Published by Steve Jackson Games (SJG)<BR>
<BR>
DGP: Digest Group Publications.  Past producer of some great products,<BR>
currently their product line is held by Roger Sanger (spit), who refuses to<BR>
license the materials.<BR>
<BR>
FF&S: Fire, Fusion and Steel.  Sets of meta-rules for both TNE and T4.<BR>
Covered the design of weapons, vehicles and starships.  FF&S2 refers to the<BR>
T4 edition.<BR>
<BR>
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:58:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines V. Aliens<BR>
<BR>
At 04:33 PM 5/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>What's the Imperial equivalent of "Ghurka regiment"?<BR>
><BR>
>I vote for His Imperial Majesty's Own Ir'klan Commandos<BR>
>(from Menorb/Regina). <BR>
<BR>
If they are Imperial Army, they'd be the <insert local noble>'s Own.<BR>
<BR>
Commando is overused.<BR>
<BR>
The Ir'klan Red Turban Infantry Regiment.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:00:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
At 12:59 AM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And what is the TML Landgrab?<BR>
<BR>
Grab a world in the Spinward Marches, and detail it to death.  System<BR>
details, climate, culture, history, animal encounters... <BR>
<BR>
There is a list of what has been taken already, but I can't remember where<BR>
it is.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:14:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Favorite Histories (was Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:06 PM 5/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yes the League is one of my favorite ME history subject.  I also <BR>
>like Norman Sicily (no body studies this to much).  I am reading an <BR>
>interesting book right now  History in Geographic Perspective the <BR>
>other France.  By Edward Whiting Fox<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.. I'm currently reading "The Black Douglases" by Michael Brown.  Great<BR>
deal of usable information for any campaign.  The rise of the Douglas clan<BR>
is perfect Pocket Empires fodder.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:14:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Hanseatic League<BR>
<BR>
On 05/24/00 at 10:06 PM,  tim@premier.net said:<BR>
<BR>
>> This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
<BR>
>Its kinda called Grayhawk espically around Grayhawk city and the  Free<BR>
>Holds.<BR>
<BR>
Is that like Grayhawk?  I never looked at that series.  D&D was always a lot more "fantastic" than I liked, and once I got past dungeon crawls, I was into building my own worlds. Maybe I should take a look at Grayhawk...as a setting.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:47:39 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Hanseatic League<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
> <BR>
> >> This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
> <BR>
> >Its kinda called Grayhawk espically around Grayhawk city and the  Free<BR>
> >Holds.<BR>
> <BR>
> Is that like Grayhawk?  I never looked at that series.  <BR>
<BR>
This is at least the way we play the area, it hints so we build.  <BR>
Remember you can change anything you want to  : )<BR>
<BR>
Though I wish my DM would change his plots but thats another <BR>
story for another time.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:50:13 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (1)  School:  In the USA the history that we are taught in secondary school is not "objective" <BR>
> history, but is designed to create patriotic citizens.  They leave out important things (like the <BR>
> incarceration of Japanese citizens during WW2, and so forth).  They downplay the <BR>
> contributions of other countries (USSR in WW2).  History is respun.<BR>
<BR>
I learned about both those things in public school.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:02:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
From: samwise1 <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion wrote;<BR>
>>Actually, no.  They said it was wrong & kept saying it was wrong, but it<BR>
>was the only way to win.  And, sometimes you have to break the rules to<BR>
beat<BR>
>something so evil.<<BR>
><BR>
>So as long as you feel bad about it, anything is allowed?<BR>
<BR>
    If you say so.  I didn't, but sometimes inorder to win, against a<BR>
totally evil enemy, you have to let, or kill, innocence.<BR>
<BR>
>As for the second, I'd buy that if the Allies were fighting because the<BR>
Axis<BR>
>was evil and not simply in competition.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, the Allies did not have a choice about bombing innocents, the<BR>
Axis placed their factory workers near the factories.  Iron bombs are never,<BR>
has never, will never be pin-point weapons.  Unlike laser guided bombs, you<BR>
cannot target iron bombs, just to hit the target.<BR>
<BR>
>Todd Moody wrote;<BR>
>>I can't believe I am posting to this subject but just to put in my 2<BR>
cents.<BR>
>Aside from the moral aspects, the bombing of the German cities probably<BR>
>ended the war more favorably and faster for the allies and here is why.<BR>
>Hitler expounded that no German city would be attacked and after the major<BR>
>bombing raids he was absolutely outraged and embarrassed and completely<BR>
lost<BR>
>it.  The bombings themselves grew out of the /accidental/ bombing of London<BR>
>by an idiot Luftwaffe aircrew, (they dropped their ordinance in the wrong<BR>
>place, can't remember the exact details and not sure what happened to them<BR>
>after the event). Hitler diverted his assets away from airfields and other<BR>
>strategic targets after the German cities were targeted and focused on<BR>
>bombing London with a purpose.  This actually allowed the RAF to regroup<BR>
and<BR>
>allies to shore up support and the rest is history as they say.  I am not<BR>
>sure if this is what the RAF intended to be the result but it certainly had<BR>
>a devastating affect. There is speculation that had Hitler not diverted his<BR>
>bombings that the Germans would have knocked out the RAF in fairly short<BR>
>order as they were on their last legs and invasion was not far behind.<<BR>
><BR>
>So you say the strategic bombing of England was an accident and a strategic<BR>
>mistake but you don't accept that the strategic bombing of Germany was a<BR>
>mistake also? I find that odd. Further, you don't mention that while the<BR>
>Luftwaffe was bled dry trying to bomb England into submission, losses among<BR>
>Allied strategic bombing crews were also hideously high until long range<BR>
>fighters were developed to escort them to the targets in the German<BR>
>heartland.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, your point being?  These are facts, not conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
>Dom (SD Mooney) wrote;<BR>
>>Coventry happened before Dresden.  It doesn't make it right, but it<BR>
>makes it more understandable.<<BR>
><BR>
>Not really. The nukes dropped on Japan were an unknown factor and thus<BR>
makes<BR>
>their use understandable. ("Its just a bigger bomb so we only need 1<BR>
instead<BR>
>of 5000, right?") Having seen the devastation of Coventry and the loss of<BR>
>civilian life, to willingly inflict such shows a serious lack of humanity.<BR>
>Justice is one thing, vengeance another. But would you really eat the<BR>
>cannibal who ate your buddy ? Some things cost you too much.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    And, the loss of 500,000 Allied lives is something you can live with?<BR>
Think before you type.  The Allies would have lost at least 500,000 men if<BR>
they invaded Japan, along with uncountable Japanese lives.  I feel that the<BR>
loss of just two cities is much better than the loss of 1,000,000 people.<BR>
    Of course I would have fought in WW2, unlike, IMO, you would have.<BR>
Please if your are going to bleat about how evil the Allies were, you might<BR>
want to do it to some Nazis, not to people who would have willingly & gladly<BR>
have given their lives to fight the Axis.<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote;<BR>
>(Despite the conversation being over. Oh well...)<BR>
>>And which nation pioneered smart weapons technology so we wouldn't have to<BR>
>do that again?<<BR>
><BR>
>And still misses regularly with it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Human error.  War is a battle between humans.  It is not a battle<BR>
between machines.  A human being must give the orders to use a weapon, not a<BR>
machine.<BR>
    Also, smart weapons are a damn sight better than iron weapons.  Of<BR>
course in your world, which is call Lala Land, there is no such thing as<BR>
warfare.<BR>
<BR>
>>The only demand was that the Japanese renounce militarism.  Ever been to<BR>
>Japan?  I spent every weekend for the better part of year.  Japanese<BR>
>culture is alive and well.<<BR>
><BR>
>The demand was to remove the Emperor from the head of the Japanese<BR>
>government and religion. Which may very well have been the one thing<BR>
>standing in the way of peace before the nukes were dropped.<BR>
>And Japanese culture now is not what it was before the war. Significant<BR>
>American cultural concepts have been introduced, not to mention the<BR>
>reduction of the Emperor. How would a Catholic country feel if told the<BR>
only<BR>
>way they would be allowed to have peace would be to deny the Pope as head<BR>
of<BR>
>their church? How do the Tibetans feel knowing the Chinese will always<BR>
>occupy them and they can not acknowledge the Dalai lama as head of their<BR>
>faith? And having done so, would they ever be the same afterwards?<BR>
>Oh right I forgot, they attacked one military base by surprise. Burn them<BR>
in<BR>
>nuclear fire until they no longer exist.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets add in the Rape of Manchuria, the use of Allied POWs in Medical<BR>
Experiments, the fact that they did not care at all for human life, the use<BR>
of Allied POWs for sword practice, etc, etc, etc, etc.  The Japanese, at the<BR>
time were not a nice people.<BR>
    How dare you judge something you cannot understand?  How dare you judge<BR>
men who fought in this war?  How dare you piss on something that was needed<BR>
to be done?  And, the reason they burned in nuclear fire is that they would<BR>
not give up.  Truman had no choice but to drop Fat Man & Little Boy on them.<BR>
Of course if you don't like it, I would suggest you go to Japan & make the<BR>
ritual offering that they would for something like this.<BR>
<BR>
>>We never were at war with the Soviet Union.<<BR>
><BR>
>Sarcasm is obviously beyond your comprehension. I will try and remember<BR>
>that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Sorta like raw human intelligence is beyond yours?  Samwise admit it,<BR>
you are a bleeding heart liberal moron, & we can all be happy.<BR>
    Note:  I do not think that all liberals have bleeding hearts, or are<BR>
morons, just Samwise.<BR>
<BR>
>>Ah, so we get to the personal attacks!<BR>
><BR>
>Son, I served in the US Army for over a decade, have a BS in Modern<BR>
>History, am working on my Masters in 20th Century Military History, and am<BR>
>a paid writer.  You, on the other hand, can't even remember where you get<BR>
>these bizarre claims of yours.<<BR>
><BR>
>Punk, you started with them and seem bound and determined to continue with<BR>
>them at any cost. Your choice. Had you actually bothered to read the rest<BR>
of<BR>
>my response to your moronic invitation you would have seen I have no need<BR>
to<BR>
>visit any war memorial as I have on sitting in my home to someone closer to<BR>
>me than anyone whose name I'd see n some monument. As for you experience,<BR>
it<BR>
>obviously taught you little to nothing. I know a number of people with<BR>
>similar experience who more than agree with me so your opinion is of no<BR>
>concern to me. BS in history? You certainly know how to spew the BS and<BR>
have<BR>
>found others willing to pay you for it. So what? They still sell copies of<BR>
>Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto.<BR>
>What is obvious it that you are still caught up in the patriotism of a<BR>
child<BR>
>who just read the first passage in his first history book. True patriotism<BR>
>is more than blindly accepting anything and everything your country has<BR>
>done. It involves being mature enough to accept the mistakes your country<BR>
>has made and be willing to publicly acknowledge them so they can never be<BR>
>repeated. Whatever else you may or may not have done you haven't learned<BR>
>that. When you have, or when you are ready to learn, come on back and I<BR>
will<BR>
>be glad to talk or teach you about any of it. Until then, you aren't fit to<BR>
>use the word "Son" when addressing me as the person who did was infinitely<BR>
>more a man and more a patriot than you could ever hope to be.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Who was it that said, my country right or wrong?  Berry Goldwater, IIRC.<BR>
Look, boy (as you do not like to be called son, & you sure as hell are not a<BR>
man), the first thing you have to learn is that no one, but no one calls<BR>
anyone on this ML a moron, but me.<BR>
    As for the sales of Mein Kampf & the Communist Manifesto, I have read<BR>
both, & I tend to think that Mein Kampf is the work of a sick & twisted<BR>
mind, much like your mind is sick & twisted.  As for the Communist<BR>
Manifesto, it would work in a perfect world, but this isn't, so it ain't.<BR>
In other words, in a free society, such as ours, where men, unlike boys like<BR>
you, have shed their blood to keep it free, you have the right to read<BR>
anything you like, believe anything you like, say anything you like.  Much<BR>
like you are doing now.  You are pissing everyone off on the ML, by being<BR>
such a dickhead, OK.  What you need to do is go to your mommy & say, "Those<BR>
big bullies on the Traveller ML are making me feel bad.", & what mommy is<BR>
going to do is pull out her tit & let you suck on it, as it seems you are<BR>
not old enough to play with the big boys without getting personal.<BR>
    I know I have pissed off a lot of people on this ML with minor personal<BR>
attacks, but you make me look like a fucking saint.  You make Cliff look<BR>
like a normal, sane, average everyday person.  The first thing you might<BR>
want to do is go & find a few vets from WW2 & talk to them, listen to what<BR>
they have to say.  My father, who was not a perfect man, he did have some<BR>
problems, but he was a good man, fought in WW2 in the Japanese Theater of<BR>
War as a Marine Grunt.  He fought the Japanese where ever they were & he<BR>
was.  He knew them.  He saw what they did to the natives.  He taught me that<BR>
you can tell a lot about an army by how they treat people under their<BR>
protection.  And, the Japanese were as close to evil as you can get.  They<BR>
usually raped the women, killed the men, & tossed the babies into the fire.<BR>
So do not bleet to me on our inhuman treatment of them.  For what its worth,<BR>
I think & I still think we should have turned Japan into the largest parking<BR>
lot on the earth.  And, if we had 10 atomic weapons, instead of 2, we should<BR>
have used them on 10 cities.  We should have rained the fire of God's Wrath<BR>
upon them.  We should have wipped them off the face of the earth.  But, we<BR>
didn't, we controlled ourselves, unlike the Japanese.  When we got what we<BR>
wanted we stopped.<BR>
    The price to pay was the loss of 2 cities, so be it.  It was not too<BR>
high.<BR>
    In other words, Samwise, I am going to do something I never thought I<BR>
would do, I am going to kill file you, & never answer anything else from you<BR>
again.  Lets face it, you are just a candy-ass punk, who does not have<BR>
enough balls or brains to know when to shut the fuck up, as well as swimming<BR>
in the shallow end of the gene pool.<BR>
<BR>
    This is my last transmission to you, I hope you take that flame & burn<BR>
off your reproductive organs, so you will not breed.  As to the rest of you,<BR>
keep the flame alive.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2494<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2495</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2495<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
=?iso-8859-1?Q?GRIP_world_builder_and_character_generator_for_TRAVELLER?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=AE_?=<BR>
Hiver manipulations revealed<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
RE: Officers<BR>
Re: Landgrab<BR>
Re: New Member<BR>
[OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:12:27 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > But I would say that since meson half-time (exp?) is exremely short (one<BR>
> > has to use relativity to get them to the target before they decay...),<BR>
> > the speed of the mesons is planned to let them decay eaxactly when they<BR>
> > hit the target vessel. Thus, all mesons in the "beam" would decay at the<BR>
> > right place (from the firing sides POV, that is.) Unless you don't hit,<BR>
> > of course.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is the canonical explanation.  It just happens to be completely wrong.  A half-life of X seconds > doesn't mean that particles decay in X seconds -- it means that particles decay exponentially over a period, > with a decay curve such that half will have decayed after X seconds.<BR>
<BR>
But a half-life of X *nano*seconds means that after a full second, ,<BR>
well, _a_lot_more Mesons will have decayed (not all, but a lot) in the<BR>
target. IIRC the half-life of Mesons is fairly short, at least for<BR>
Traveller purposes... True, a fair fraction of the Mesons will simply<BR>
pass through the target and decay elsewhere, but obviously the rate is<BR>
at least good enough for weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, all this requires a lot of computing power, but OTOH, Meson<BR>
guns are GTL 10+ technology.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:32:14 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
...<BR>
>> Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
>> without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre being a<BR>
>> carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
><BR>
>I think you're reversing cause and effect: we would have used battleships <BR>
>more, and more effectively, in the Pacific if we'd had more of 'em.<BR>
<BR>
  There was a persuasive case made a couple of years ago in JMH ("Task<BR>
Force One"; Fuquea?) that forward re-fuelling capacity would have kept<BR>
operations to a handful of capital ships for a year or two regardless;<BR>
embarassingly, even if the Japs couldn't _find_ Pearl the offensive arm<BR>
would be nav-air by default.<BR>
<BR>
  OTOH, if more battleships had been available later on then they wouldn't<BR>
have had to be husbanded so for landing cover & support; the IJN might<BR>
even have gotten the big gun battle they'd prepared for, but with the US <BR>
nav-air advantage they quite likely would have been decisively defeated.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:33:57 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Graf Zahl aka Karsten Gorling writes:<BR>
> > > It is possible, that someone could explain me,  how a mesoncannon<BR>
> > > works.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > A meson gun actually fires Handwavium particles, and is apparently named > after Bob Meson, who invented them.  Certainly it doesn't accelerate > normal mesons, which don't behave anything like the 'mesons' used in a > meson gun.<BR>
><BR>
> I was always under the impresson that meson guns fired a stream of Free<BR>
> Mesons. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
As opposed to a stream of Freemasons? :-P<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:43:05 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Legate says<BR>
<BR>
Snip all but the last of this message<BR>
<BR>
 In other words, Samwise, I am going to do something I never <BR>
thought I<BR>
> would do, I am going to kill file you, & never answer anything else from you<BR>
> again.  Lets face it, you are just a candy-ass punk, who does not have<BR>
> enough balls or brains to know when to shut the fuck up, as well as swimming<BR>
> in the shallow end of the gene pool.<BR>
> <BR>
>     This is my last transmission to you, I hope you take that flame & burn<BR>
> off your reproductive organs, so you will not breed.  As to the rest of you,<BR>
> keep the flame alive.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
I am glade you learning not to raise to flame bait.  But next time <BR>
can you save us from these curse words and personal attack on <BR>
the ML.   You write good Traveller stuff from what I have read, so do <BR>
the same with other post.  The key here is to act like an adult not <BR>
just to claim you are one, I think you are understanding this.  : )<BR>
<BR>
Now Samwise I realize you just got slammed but take it off the list, <BR>
Spam Legate at home or anything legal but dont make the rest of <BR>
us suffer through a reply.  Like I told Legate act like an adult <BR>
instead of just saying you are one.<BR>
<BR>
Another words both of you chill or take it off the list.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable <BR>
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for <BR>
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Pratchett <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:34:03 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
> >of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
> >Condfederation, on the other hand... </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
> <BR>
> Solomani...No.<BR>
<BR>
Why not? (I haven't read much Solomani-specific material, so...)<BR>
<BR>
> Think Hiver and their Bruisers (?)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, they are perfect.<BR>
 <BR>
> >BTW: Has anyone done a modular Robot design system (similar to the GT<BR>
> >ship design system) for GURPS: Robots? That book is a bit too detailed<BR>
> >for my personal taste...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >CU,<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:41:10 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Okay, our main problem with meson tech seems to be that we don't know<BR>
exactly when a specific meson will decay. If we knew this, we could<BR>
bring each meson to its own "rewuired reltivistic speed" to let it decay<BR>
in the target. I know, current physics say that this is not possible,<BR>
but let us assume that the TravTech inventors are a bit ahead of our own<BR>
understanding of physical laws. Therefore, each meson is either <BR>
<BR>
a) examined and accelerated to the speed needed for the effect or<BR>
b) created with a specific life time (sic!), which is the same for all<BR>
weapons and thus the required relativistic speed is identical for all<BR>
weapons the beam.<BR>
<BR>
I am sure that all you physicians at this list will say "ARG!", but<BR>
after all, you don't know how to build a jump drve, do you? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:50:03 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> b) created with a specific life time (sic!), which is the same for all<BR>
> weapons and thus the required relativistic speed is identical for all<BR>
> weapons the beam.<BR>
<BR>
ARG! Not "weapons"! "Mesons"!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sorry...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:57:09 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>Subject: History is Bunk<BR>
...<BR>
>(2)  I think the above also occurs in other countries.<BR>
<BR>
  The Japanese are a conspicuous example; OTOH, it often seems<BR>
that Germans (ForEx) have reached a far better balance overall<BR>
than many others.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:24:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: samwise1<BR>
>Todd Moody wrote;<BR>
>>I can't believe I am posting to this subject but just to put in my 2<BR>
cents.<BR>
>Aside from the moral aspects, the bombing of the German cities probably<BR>
>ended the war more favorably and faster for the allies and here is why.<BR>
>Hitler expounded that no German city would be attacked and after the major<BR>
>bombing raids he was absolutely outraged and embarrassed and completely<BR>
lost<BR>
>it.  The bombings themselves grew out of the /accidental/ bombing of London<BR>
>by an idiot Luftwaffe aircrew, (they dropped their ordinance in the wrong<BR>
>place, can't remember the exact details and not sure what happened to them<BR>
>after the event). Hitler diverted his assets away from airfields and other<BR>
>strategic targets after the German cities were targeted and focused on<BR>
>bombing London with a purpose.  This actually allowed the RAF to regroup<BR>
and<BR>
>allies to shore up support and the rest is history as they say.  I am not<BR>
>sure if this is what the RAF intended to be the result but it certainly had<BR>
>a devastating affect. There is speculation that had Hitler not diverted his<BR>
>bombings that the Germans would have knocked out the RAF in fairly short<BR>
>order as they were on their last legs and invasion was not far behind.<<BR>
><BR>
>So you say the strategic bombing of England was an accident and a strategic<BR>
>mistake but you don't accept that the strategic bombing of Germany was a<BR>
>mistake also? I find that odd.<BR>
<BR>
If you are going to flame me at least read what I wrote.  The only mistake I<BR>
claimed was the first bombing of London by accident.  Obviously the Germans<BR>
were bombing strategic military targets prior to that.  I don't know of any<BR>
military theorist that would think it is a strategic mistake to actually<BR>
bomb the enemy's military strongholds and equipment.  I made no judgements<BR>
as to strategic mistakes, the outcome is pretty obvious.  I only said that<BR>
many speculated that it might have turned out differently if they had made<BR>
different choices.  I never said that I made that claim.  I have no first<BR>
hand knowledge of events (my mother wasn't even born yet), only the<BR>
obviously biased education I have received.<BR>
<BR>
>Further, you don't mention that while the<BR>
>Luftwaffe was bled dry trying to bomb England into submission, losses among<BR>
>Allied strategic bombing crews were also hideously high until long range<BR>
>fighters were developed to escort them to the targets in the German<BR>
>heartland.<BR>
<BR>
You are right that I didn't mention that, I figured it was intuitively<BR>
obvious, and it wasn't really germane to my point.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:37:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Doug!<BR>
what about IIRC and although not an acronym, fnord, if that is the right<BR>
word.<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 10:22 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 06:59 PM 5/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>Is there a list somewhere of the common acronyms used on the TML.  I must<BR>
>>admit that I am lost on a few of them.  Please enlighten me!<BR>
><BR>
>IMTU: In My Traveller Universe.  This is how I run my games, which may be<BR>
>different from the official history.<BR>
><BR>
>OTU: Official Traveller Universe.  The story as written in published<BR>
sources.<BR>
><BR>
>CT: Classic Traveller.  The little black book (LBB) period, 1977-1987.<BR>
><BR>
>MT: MegaTraveller.  The second version of Traveller<BR>
><BR>
>TNE: Traveller: The New Era.  Third edition.<BR>
><BR>
>T4: Marc Miller's Traveller.  4th edition, with major problems.<BR>
><BR>
>T4.1: The bug-squished rules, available several places on the net.<BR>
><BR>
>T5: The next edition, which Marc is writing as we speak.<BR>
><BR>
>GT: GURPS Traveller.  Published by Steve Jackson Games (SJG)<BR>
><BR>
>DGP: Digest Group Publications.  Past producer of some great products,<BR>
>currently their product line is held by Roger Sanger (spit), who refuses to<BR>
>license the materials.<BR>
><BR>
>FF&S: Fire, Fusion and Steel.  Sets of meta-rules for both TNE and T4.<BR>
>Covered the design of weapons, vehicles and starships.  FF&S2 refers to the<BR>
>T4 edition.<BR>
><BR>
>Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
><BR>
>TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:28:28 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> >>>Alternatively, and with somewhat less handwaving, perhaps a<BR>
> neutrino-like particle was discovered which can easily pass through<BR>
> normal matter, but which annihilates itself if hit with it's antiparticle.<BR>
>  Then, a "Meson Gun" becomes a device which shoots this particle<BR>
> and its anti-particle in two separate beams which converge at the<BR>
> target point.  Therefore, the only explosion is at the target point.<<<<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Ooh, I like this!  A neutrino-antineutrino beam.  And there is some sort<BR>
> of relationship between mesons and neutrinos, isn't there? <scratches<BR>
> head, nope can't remember>  <BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, do all of these two-beam ideas remind anyone else of Ender's Game and<BR>
> the "Dr. Device" weapon? :-)  <BR>
<BR>
Nope, sorry.  Haven't read that.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:28am up 18 days, 11:30, 2 users, load average: 0.23, 0.14, 0.12<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:25:49 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
Now Samwise I realize you just got slammed but take it off the list, <BR>
Spam Legate at home or anything legal but dont make the rest of <BR>
us suffer through a reply.  Like I told Legate act like an adult <BR>
instead of just saying you are one.<BR>
<BR>
Another words both of you chill or take it off the list.<<BR>
<BR>
By about 10 seconds before I sent it.<BR>
OK, done.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:49:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Talon" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?GRIP_world_builder_and_character_generator_for_TRAVELLER?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=AE_?=<BR>
<BR>
Does anyoe know who developed these programs and if they are similar to<BR>
exisiting software that people from the TML have produced?  It is due out in<BR>
6 days. I may go ahead and get them and give a review for the TML unless<BR>
someone is knowledgable about these. This is snipped from the GRIP website:<BR>
<BR>
A TRAVELLER Sector/Subsector/World Builder. Generate and populate and<BR>
entire sector, in just seconds! Point and click to edit any world in the<BR>
sector. Easily add and remove worlds. Imports most existing Sector and<BR>
Subsector file formats. Send Sector and Subsector maps to your players<BR>
during the game!<BR>
<BR>
The TRAVELLER Character Generator lets you easily create characters and<BR>
npcs, using any of the original Classic TRAVELLERller Books; Character and<BR>
Combat (Book 1), Mercenary (Book 4), High Guard (Book 5), Merchant Prince<BR>
(Book 6), Scouts (Book 7), along with Citizens of the Imperium (Supplement<BR>
4).<BR>
<BR>
Peruse through the extensive TRAVELLER Library Data System, and easily edit<BR>
existing entries, or add your own! Game Masters can send selected Library<BR>
Data entries to players during a game.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:48:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Hiver manipulations revealed<BR>
<BR>
I recently saw a company called "Hiverworld" (http://www.hiverworld.com/) at<BR>
a trade show. I went over to talk to them, hoping to hear a good story<BR>
involving Traveller about how the company came to have the name, but it<BR>
turned out to have absolutely no connection to Traveller. This may be a<BR>
subtle Hiver manipulation after all, for they sell Internet security<BR>
products. Security from Hivers? I think not.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:45:38 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody wrote;<BR>
>If you are going to flame me at least read what I wrote.<<BR>
<BR>
That wasn't a flame. That was at best a disagreement. It was really an<BR>
expression of confusion as you pointed out exactly why the German attempts<BR>
at a strategic bombing campaign were a failure so it seemed odd to me you<BR>
could come to any conclusion but that an Allied campaign would be anything<BR>
but a failure as well.<BR>
I can disagree with something you say without it being a flame. I can also<BR>
quote more than one person without every sentence of my reply addressing<BR>
everyone quoted. At least I thought I could, perhaps the rules are<BR>
significantly different here.<BR>
<BR>
>The only mistake I claimed was the first bombing of London by accident.<BR>
Obviously the Germans were bombing strategic military targets prior to that.<BR>
I don't know of any<BR>
military theorist that would think it is a strategic mistake to actually<BR>
bomb the enemy's military strongholds and equipment.<<BR>
<BR>
There are quite a few who think strategic bombing of factories and<BR>
infrastructure is a mstake however and that is was I referring to.<BR>
<BR>
>I made no judgements as to strategic mistakes, the outcome is pretty<BR>
obvious.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually no it isn't. The success of the ground campaign more than made up<BR>
for the failures of the strategic air campaign as I said.<BR>
<BR>
>I only said that many speculated that it might have turned out differently<BR>
if they had made different choices. <<BR>
<BR>
I agree.<BR>
<BR>
>I never said that I made that claim.<<BR>
<BR>
I was trying to say you should.<BR>
<BR>
> I have no first hand knowledge of events (my mother wasn't even born yet),<BR>
only the<BR>
obviously biased education I have received.<<BR>
<BR>
The strategic air proponents have done a rather good job of writing things<BR>
to favor themselves, I agree.<BR>
<BR>
>You are right that I didn't mention that, I figured it was intuitively<BR>
obvious, and it wasn't really germane to my point.<<BR>
<BR>
But it was germane to mine. And as I said, I was confused that you seemed to<BR>
be stating my position for me but not wanting to take the last step and<BR>
agree outright.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:06:16 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com (bloo) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >>>I should think a requirement for client-status would be the abolition<BR>
> of slavery.<<<<BR>
><BR>
> Probably, but not necessarily always true. I imagine the situation would be<BR>
> similar to the British during the 19th Century; they attacked the slave<BR>
> trade (at least the trans-atlantic kind), but that didn't stop them from<BR>
> forming relationships with slave nations (like the US). And didn't India<BR>
> have slavery somewhere? The Empire was very big.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the British are also without a single written constitution,<BR>
so they didnt' have the opportunity to outlaw slavery from<BR>
day zero.<BR>
<BR>
> Really, though, the proper model for Client States is probably the Romans.<BR>
<BR>
You'll find much sympathy for that proposition here, but I<BR>
would hesitate to call it "the proper model".<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:08:37 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Isn't Vilia/Garda-Vilis a multi system polity?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on who you ask.  Vilis would say so.<BR>
The Imperium would disagree for the moment,<BR>
since it is and Imperium Protectorate (at least<BR>
mostly).  The Tanoosians would say "Hell No!<BR>
Here, hold this pineapple, I'll be right back."<BR>
"Hey, this isn't a KA-BOOOM!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:56:43 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff wrote;<BR>
>PS: Not being a US Citizen, I don't know this - if a<BR>
State of the Union wanted to quit, could it legally?<<BR>
<BR>
We aren't really sure.<BR>
<BR>
>Isn't that what the American Civil War was about?<<BR>
<BR>
It depends on who you ask.<BR>
<BR>
Basically the whole issue is one of those national quirks that every country<BR>
has.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote;<BR>
>The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
silent on this...my guess is no, but that might not stop people from<BR>
trying.<<BR>
<BR>
Worlds petitioned to leave following the Second Frontier War. And more<BR>
worlds were made independent following the First through Third Frontier<BR>
Wars.<BR>
Also of note with the Solomani would be the worlds that requested they be<BR>
readmitted  to the Imperium and taken out from under Solomani rule.<BR>
Obviously the Solomani didn't like such a cavalier readjustment of "their"<BR>
client states status.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:07:36 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote;<BR>
>I'd say so, and not only because of the direct cost of a milbot vs. the<BR>
cost of a battle dress(many dog-sized warbots would be much cheaper),<BR>
but also the indirect cost of loosing soldiers and having to tell that<BR>
to the media. "The Imperial Forces report no casualties except a few<BR>
attack robots. The area is secured." (and who in the media will care for<BR>
the exact numbers in such a case?)<<BR>
<BR>
True, but given the limitations of robot intelligence vs. human intelligence<BR>
(except for Hiver warbots of course) it could take a lot of warbots to be<BR>
able to achieve the same goals as human troops if in fact they could match<BR>
the humans at all.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
Condfederation, on the other hand... <<BR>
<BR>
Large numbers of Solomani hate the thought of robots doing any human jobs no<BR>
matter what. As well, in addition to the SSMM they also get the 50th century<BR>
Luddites causing trouble if they try such.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:24:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Officers<BR>
<BR>
> Not only that, but look at the craft the Navy operates.  On a single<BR>
> Tigress, the pilots of the fighter wing account for 300 officers<BR>
> (or 600 if  the fighters are crewed by two people).<BR>
<BR>
Pilots, and definitely crew, do not have to be officers.<BR>
<BR>
While this is the case in smaller airforces, such as NZ, it was not the case<BR>
for the Soviet Air Force, or for other air forces in the past.<BR>
<BR>
> Then, add up all the 'small' ships<BR>
> and SDBs of the sub 2000 ton range.<BR>
> How many SDBs are there in a  defended<BR>
> system?  Each one will likely have 2-<BR>
> 4 officers, even if they are O4 and below.<BR>
<BR>
Why ?<BR>
<BR>
It is common in earth navies for small craft to be commanded by NCOs.<BR>
<BR>
If the SDB is large enough to require an officer, then fine, but there's no<BR>
reason for a ship with a crew of less than ten to have more than one<BR>
officer, if any.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:54:15 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> on 5/24/00 4:12 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> Actually, what's needed is a concordance/cross-index.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Let's get *serious* about it.  What we need is a<BR>
> > *relational database* containing every bit of information<BR>
> > on the Spinward Marches with at least a field for<BR>
> > source/citation.<BR>
> > <BR>
> <BR>
> And I just happen to have MySQL running on my Solaris box.  Now if I can<BR>
> just find the time.  Any volunteers out their who know Mysql and PHP?<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested.  Having just learned in the last week how to do this with<BR>
MySQL and PHP.  Surprisingly easy I thought.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a bit busy just now, so it could be a couple of weeks before I got started.<BR>
<BR>
I'm open to ideas for structure and features.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:54am up 18 days, 11:56, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.04, 0.05<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:46:59 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> And what is the TML Landgrab?<BR>
<BR>
Stake your claim at: http://www.downport.com/landgrab/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
6:46am up 18 days, 11:48, 2 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.07<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:33:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 05/24/00 at 10:06 PM,  tim@premier.net said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
><BR>
> >Its kinda called Grayhawk espically around Grayhawk city and the  Free<BR>
> >Holds.<BR>
><BR>
> Is that like Grayhawk?  I never looked at that series.  D&D was always a lot more "fantastic" than I liked, and once I got past dungeon crawls, I was into building my own worlds. Maybe I should take a look at Grayhawk...as a setting.<BR>
<BR>
Originally it was a _very_ political setting.  Of course you<BR>
could ignore that and ride north to battle the demigod Iuz'<BR>
country, south to battle the Scarlet Brotherhood of evil<BR>
monks, west to the mountains and its crashed spaceships<BR>
and entrances to the underworld that lead to Lloth's place<BR>
(the Spider Demon Queen of the Drow Elves).  But the<BR>
central area was chock full of small and medium sized<BR>
countries, comprised mostly of a couple of different human<BR>
races.<BR>
<BR>
Its now 591 in the common year.  The first Greyhawk<BR>
stuff released in 1980 was 576.  Lot of changes, but<BR>
it still seems much the same.  The new D&D 3rd Edition<BR>
is going to use Greyhawk as the default campaign setting.<BR>
<BR>
It is worth your perusal.  I'd recommend "Greyhawk: The<BR>
Adventure Begins" for an overview. Except for some<BR>
rare exceptions, there are no rules in this book, which<BR>
makes it highly adaptable.  About a third of the book<BR>
details the city of Greyhawk itself, the rest is history<BR>
and culture.  It has a nice, colorful DM-screen style<BR>
cardstock map of the Domain of GH and surrounding<BR>
area, with a City of GH map on the inside, and a small<BR>
book of maps.  You could drop everything in this<BR>
single supplement into fantasy rpg campaign with no<BR>
real difficulty.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2495<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2496</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2496<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Double talk<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
New Member quiz.<BR>
Warning......<BR>
Re: Landgrab<BR>
Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
Re: Landgrab<BR>
Re: Double talk<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Grand Survey Database<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Double talk<BR>
New Ship (Long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:40:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Double talk<BR>
<BR>
> >  Also, horrific as it may be,<BR>
> >they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their<BR>
> >own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to<BR>
> >be treated the same way.<BR>
><BR>
>   Huh?!?! how is this relevant? It was still terrificly horrible. How can<BR>
> you find ANY justification for something as horrible as TORTURE to<BR>
> SURRENDERED peoples. they were non combatants. I am totally perplexed..<BR>
<BR>
Why do you find torture horrible ?<BR>
<BR>
It is the normal fate of those who are not brave enough to fight to the<BR>
death.<BR>
<BR>
And why not torture people who surrender ?<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who surrenders is obviously not human, they are sub-human at best,<BR>
probably weorse than animals. Who cares what happens to them ?<BR>
<BR>
I am totally perplexed.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
( Attempting to make the problem more obvious to Erik,<BR>
  not actually holding the above views )<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:37:38 -0400<BR>
From: "samwise1" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
Or wait until Gen Con and get the new Greyhawk book being released for the<BR>
RPGA Living Greyhawk Campaign and 3E which will be significantly better than<BR>
TaB.<BR>
Also, 3E will be using a modified form of GH as the default.<BR>
Lastly, it is Lolth. Using Lloth is a rant invitation, which of course<BR>
usually leads to a flame somewhere along the line, on lists with hardcore<BR>
'Hawkers.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
(not-quite-that-) Hardcore 'Hawker<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:45:34 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Or wait until Gen Con and get the new Greyhawk book being released for the<BR>
> RPGA Living Greyhawk Campaign and 3E which will be significantly better than<BR>
> TaB.<BR>
<BR>
I seriously question if that anything associated with the RPGA<BR>
Living stuff will be better than pulling out my toe nails with pliers.<BR>
Go ahead and flame me, but I'm wearing a ring of flame immunity.<BR>
<BR>
Suffice to say, a bird in the hand is worth two non-existent books<BR>
in the bush.<BR>
<BR>
I was simply recommending the already-available book GH:The<BR>
Adventure Begins, as an overview of the current GH setting that<BR>
can be adapted for any game system because it is notably absent<BR>
and D&D rules and mechanics.  Almost pure content.  Compare<BR>
that to a currently non-existant book and guess which wins.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, 3E will be using a modified form of GH as the default.<BR>
> Lastly, it is Lolth. Using Lloth is a rant invitation, which of course<BR>
> usually leads to a flame somewhere along the line, on lists with hardcore<BR>
> 'Hawkers.<BR>
<BR>
Well if TSR/WOTC can't proofread their products better, why<BR>
would anyone think it is worth discussing, let alone mentioning,<BR>
given the frequent typo nature of email.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:06:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
My last comment on GH before the list attacks,<BR>
<BR>
According to a VP at WoTC, no further in-house<BR>
development will take place in GH, but "We are<BR>
planning on a small (96 pages) product that will<BR>
contain brief overviews of the domains, transnational<BR>
organizaitons, major NPCs and history of the<BR>
"Greyhawk World".  This book will essentially<BR>
complete the trilogy of The Adventure Begins<BR>
and the Player's Guide to Greyhawk."  Subsequent<BR>
products will be created by the RPGA.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rpgplanet.com/dnd3e/3esettings.htm<BR>
<BR>
Old but apparently extensive repository of GH<BR>
stuff.<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:18:21 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry about that. I'm not doing it deliberately. I'm using Outlook Express<BR>
> can anyone advise as how to 'unMIME' or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
'Tay your forgiven.....<BR>
<BR>
Now to the important content.<BR>
<BR>
Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
<BR>
1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
<BR>
2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
<BR>
3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:25:28 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
Subject: VIRUS for LINUX/UNIX/MAC!<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
<BR>
Attention Linux/Unix/OS2/MAC Users:<BR>
This virus operates on the honor system. Please mail this message<BR>
to every email address on your system and randomly delete a<BR>
number of files from your hard drive.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:27:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
on 5/24/00 10:54 PM, Paul Campbell at paul@kemitix.uklinux.net wrote:<BR>
>> And I just happen to have MySQL running on my Solaris box.  Now if I can<BR>
>> just find the time.  Any volunteers out their who know Mysql and PHP?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd be interested.  Having just learned in the last week how to do this with<BR>
> MySQL and PHP.  Surprisingly easy I thought.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm a bit busy just now, so it could be a couple of weeks before I got<BR>
> started.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm open to ideas for structure and features.<BR>
<BR>
The box I have in mind is currently serving my 6 website (3 devoted to<BR>
Traveller). I would think that we could set up a new site with an<BR>
appropriate domain name.  I'll need to harden the server some more before I<BR>
let anyone in with a local telnet account.  As for the software/hardware.<BR>
<BR>
The server is a PIII running Solaris 8.  I am running apache with php<BR>
suuport (version 3) and MySQL v 3.22.  There is about 10 gigs free on the<BR>
machine and it gets a full tape backup nightly.  I also just installed<BR>
phpmyadmin, so there is a web front end for MySQL.<BR>
<BR>
Ideally, I'd like to limit or allow no outside telnet access, and do<BR>
everything from the web and via ftp.  I am willing to donate server space<BR>
and sysadmin expertise.  I can help with coding, but am not a MYSQL expert,<BR>
and only sort of know php. Now if I could just afford a copy of oracle8<BR>
Solaris x86.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone else interested in this project?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 05:31:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: TML vs sleep<BR>
<BR>
> > That's the problem - the REALLY crazy ones are always later described<BR>
> > by their neighbours as a "nice quiet young man".  And the truly<BR>
> > dangerous and evil villains are the ones that look average and<BR>
> > harmless.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Red<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, Blaelok was a really snappy dresser.  The really dangerous villans<BR>
look<BR>
> and act like nice guys/gals -- until they screw you, that is.<BR>
<BR>
Over the years I've developed the following policies.<BR>
<BR>
1)    If you meet someone who everyone describes as a 'kind of nice guy, a<BR>
bit quiet<BR>
...keeps himself to himself really...' - run like hell.<BR>
<BR>
2)    If you meet someone who is described as 'a fun loving person who<BR>
everyone likes'<BR>
- - don't sell them self insurance (or is that life assurance).<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:24:41 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Talon wrote:<BR>
> Thanks Doug!<BR>
> what about IIRC and although not an acronym, fnord, if that is the right<BR>
> word.<BR>
<BR>
If I remember correctly, IIRC stands for Imperial Interstellar<BR>
Reconnaissance Corps. <g><BR>
<BR>
As for fnord, your not cleared for that.  When you know what it means, then<BR>
you'll be cleared for it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
7:24am up 18 days, 12:26, 2 users, load average: 0.14, 0.15, 0.10<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:15:46 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000, Eric T. Holmes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>PS:  I thought they were _Danes_ at Stamford not Swedes.<BR>
<BR>
Actually I thought they were Norwegians, but what the hell :-)<BR>
They were vikings, and nobody seemed to ask their place of<BR>
origin at that time, did they?<BR>
<BR>
>Eric<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:47:00 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> The box I have in mind is currently serving my 6 website (3 devoted to<BR>
> Traveller). I would think that we could set up a new site with an<BR>
> appropriate domain name.  I'll need to harden the server some more before I<BR>
> let anyone in with a local telnet account.  As for the software/hardware.<BR>
> <BR>
> The server is a PIII running Solaris 8.  I am running apache with php<BR>
> suuport (version 3) and MySQL v 3.22.  There is about 10 gigs free on the<BR>
> machine and it gets a full tape backup nightly.  I also just installed<BR>
> phpmyadmin, so there is a web front end for MySQL.<BR>
<BR>
I've been using phpmyadmin on my ISP's site.  Not bad.  Even lets you submit<BR>
SQL commands directly.<BR>
<BR>
> Ideally, I'd like to limit or allow no outside telnet access, and do<BR>
> everything from the web and via ftp.  I am willing to donate server space<BR>
<BR>
Great.  I don't see me needing telnet access.  ftp to upload files would be<BR>
enough.  And having phpmyadmin would allow for troubleshooting of the data. <BR>
One of the neat features it has is to dump the entire database to a text file<BR>
of SQL commands that create tables and populate them.  Great for creating a copy<BR>
of the live database for developing off-line.<BR>
<BR>
> and sysadmin expertise.  I can help with coding, but am not a MYSQL expert,<BR>
> and only sort of know php. Now if I could just afford a copy of oracle8<BR>
> Solaris x86.<BR>
<BR>
Probably not that different to me then :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
9:47am up 18 days, 14:49, 2 users, load average: 0.05, 0.10, 0.04<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:54:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Double talk<BR>
<BR>
> Playing devil's advocate, one could argue 'what right do we westerners<BR>
have<BR>
> to enforce our moral and ethical codes on others?.  Of course the answer<BR>
is<BR>
> 'because we can'.<BR>
><BR>
> Just my 2 centicredits.<BR>
<BR>
I have relatives in Sierra Leone who would love a bit more cultural<BR>
imperialism<BR>
right now, that and several boatloads of SLA, medical equipment, artillery,<BR>
basically<BR>
anything we can get them.<BR>
<BR>
And yes I am planning a Traveller Scenario based on the whole thing - that's<BR>
why I<BR>
wrote inveterate scenario designer on my introduction.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:01:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 24 May 2000, Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > (1)  School:  In the USA the history that we are taught in secondary<BR>
school is not "objective"<BR>
> > history, but is designed to create patriotic citizens.  They leave out<BR>
important things (like the<BR>
> > incarceration of Japanese citizens during WW2, and so forth).  They<BR>
downplay the<BR>
> > contributions of other countries (USSR in WW2).  History is respun.<BR>
><BR>
> I learned about both those things in public school.<BR>
><BR>
So did I, (at State School, public school being something different over<BR>
here).<BR>
<BR>
In my third year (US 8th grade IIRC) we also did the slave trade as part of<BR>
the industrial revolution.<BR>
And colonialism when we did 19th and 20th century history. In my experience<BR>
schools in the UK<BR>
don't downplay the role of the USSR or the US in the European Theatre but<BR>
the Pacific war is<BR>
covered very thinly much to the disgust of veterans groups.<BR>
<BR>
Basically the British (the Scots and the Welsh would dearly love to make<BR>
that the English) spent so<BR>
much of their history conquering and oppressing other people that it tends<BR>
to come up whatever<BR>
kind of history you teach.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:06:02 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
> 'Tay your forgiven.....<BR>
><BR>
> Now to the important content.<BR>
><BR>
> Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
<BR>
I have an instinctive sympathy for the Vilani based entirely on a strong<BR>
suspision of<BR>
which nationality of actor would be playing which side in the Film version<BR>
of<BR>
Imperium. David Warner for Imperial Governor anyone.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
<BR>
I leave that sort of thing to the French.<BR>
><BR>
> 3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
Definately especially when players underarm their ships to save money.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:23:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
> Did FDR know of Pearl Harbour in advance etc etc snipped.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with conspiracy theories of this kind and the arguments about<BR>
breaches of the Geneva convention and warcrimes is that they assume the<BR>
kind of absolute knowledge, command and control and hindsight that<BR>
real life Heads of State and Chiefs of Staff only dream of.<BR>
<BR>
Armies are dogged by inertia, peace time armies even more so. Airpower<BR>
theorists<BR>
were right about Carriers but wrong about the utility of strategic bombing<BR>
to break<BR>
national will to exist.<BR>
<BR>
You can argue that Truman authorised the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs to<BR>
head<BR>
off Soviet expansion in the east or that he did it to save the lives lost in<BR>
an invasion of<BR>
the Japanese mainland. Likeliest is that it was both - must have seemed like<BR>
a good<BR>
deal at the time.<BR>
<BR>
In the UK the air theorists pushed strategic bombing as a way to attack<BR>
Germany<BR>
directly, they were also motivated by a desire to enhance the status of the<BR>
RAF<BR>
(bombers have more crews, more personel means more power in the incessent<BR>
turf wars that have dogged every military establishment since the seapower -<BR>
land power<BR>
argument in classical Ahens).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry that was a bit of a ramble I think I'd better stop now.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:48:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Grand Survey Database<BR>
<BR>
Just to let everyone know how stupid I am, it is now 2:45 AM and I'm still<BR>
reading the TML.  Just for yucks, I set up my webserver for the proposed<BR>
Grand Survey Database (or whatever we decide to call it) a<BR>
http://grandsurvey.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
If there is serious interest, I will set up majordomo to support the databse<BR>
project, and to keep boring dev chatter off the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Sleepily yours, Tod<BR>
<BR>
(going to bed now)<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:09:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
> But in spite of all the conspiracy theories, there's no evidence that<BR>
> the attack on Pearl Harbor was known in advance by anyone in the US.<BR>
> And many, *many* people have spent *years* digging very hard in an<BR>
> attempt to *find* such evidence.<BR>
><BR>
>>>>>>><BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm....perhaps it was Yamamoto who was on the Grassy Knoll?<BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking though.  In the 3I could such a sneak attack take place?  And <BR>
> how would one go about executing it?<BR>
<BR>
Jump makes sneak attacks *easy*. Especialy at J-2 and higher, when you<BR>
can jump in from more than the adjacent hexes.<BR>
<BR>
Add a deep space refueling point or two, and the only thing that saves<BR>
you is the spread of jump exits in the attacking force.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:02:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well you have me there..No evidence.  I was just thinking about the<BR>
> situation logically.  All those signs and NO ONE thought an attack was<BR>
> coming?  Hard to believe.<BR>
<BR>
They *did* think an attack was coming. They just didn't know where, and<BR>
Pearl wasn't at the top of the list. <BR>
<BR>
While there are a *lot* of errors in it, a good place to start in<BR>
learning about this stuff is "Day of Infamy" by Walter Lord. It's not a<BR>
bad read either. <BR>
<BR>
The movies "Tora! Tora! Tora!" and "Midway" did their best to get<BR>
things right. <BR>
<BR>
For the cryptographic side of things, David Kahn's "The Codebreakers"<BR>
covers it *very* well. Check out the unabridged hardback from the<BR>
library, because it costs over $60 new!<BR>
<BR>
And this won't be wasted. All of it together will give you a much<BR>
better picture of *how* this sort of thing happens. Lots of little<BR>
mistakes adding up to one big disaster.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, the Navy had trouble getting thru to Pearl on the radio so<BR>
they sent the warning via Western Union, and it wasn't marked urgent.<BR>
It was delivered to the base commander hours *after* the attack.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:49:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Double talk<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>  Also, horrific as it may be,<BR>
>>they were going by their own rules for war, which is the reason their<BR>
>>own troops avoided surrender if at all possible.  They expected to<BR>
>>be treated the same way.<BR>
><BR>
>   Huh?!?! how is this relevant? It was still terrificly horrible. How can <BR>
> you find ANY justification for something as horrible as TORTURE to <BR>
> SURRENDERED peoples. they were non combatants. I am totally perplexed..<BR>
<BR>
By *their* code, the act of surrendering made a person the lowest of<BR>
the low, and entitled to *no* rights. The only *proper* way to "lose"<BR>
was to die fighting.<BR>
<BR>
You need to be able to view cultures by their own rules, even if you<BR>
don't agree with those rules. If you can't, you'll never be able to<BR>
portray *alien* cultures properly. <BR>
<BR>
There are or have been *human* cultures that are *more* alien than<BR>
anything I've seen in published SF. A *few* authors have come close.<BR>
Check out "Courtship Rite" by Kingsbury. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:22:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: New Ship (Long)<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
This is a ship I'm designing for use in an adventure scenario.<BR>
<BR>
Xango Express Liner  (TL12)<BR>
<BR>
Crew: standard 4 person bridge crew, 4 engineers, 2 medics,=20<BR>
2 stewards. (total 12)<BR>
<BR>
200 dTon SL Hull, DR 100.=20<BR>
Basic Bridge<BR>
Engineering<BR>
Utility<BR>
10 Manoeuvre<BR>
10 Jump-4<BR>
80 Fuel<BR>
11 Low Berths (44 tubes)<BR>
4 Passengers (48 seated)<BR>
7 Staterooms<BR>
Sickbay<BR>
Secure Lockers (as 1 brig)<BR>
Lounge (as 2 staterooms)<BR>
3 Hold (+2 in turrets)<BR>
<BR>
Statistics<BR>
Emass - 293.5 sTons<BR>
Lmass - 388.5 sTons<BR>
Cost - 55.3 MCr<BR>
HP - 22,500<BR>
Size Modifier - +8<BR>
<BR>
Performance<BR>
Acceleration (unloaded) - 3.41 G<BR>
Acceleration (loaded) - 2.6 G<BR>
Jump - 4<BR>
Airspeed - 2,236 mph<BR>
<BR>
(note - this is a rough text)<BR>
<BR>
The Xango Express Liner represents a new departure in high speed=20<BR>
executive travel.<BR>
<BR>
It was recently introduced by Trailing Edge Spaceways to cater to=20<BR>
younger MegaCorp Executives and Imperial Civil Servants.=20<BR>
<BR>
Generally following x-boat routes Xango liners offer long haul=20<BR>
scheduled service from the Core to capitals and major worlds in=20<BR>
the Ley, Fornost and Antares sectors.<BR>
<BR>
Passengers are processed after take off to reduce turn around time,=20<BR>
secure lockers are provided for confidential documents etc, above and=20<BR>
beyond passenger baggage allowance.<BR>
<BR>
Two medical staff and a fully equipped sickbay ensure that low berth=20<BR>
fatalities are extremely uncommon. Additional engineering staff=20<BR>
constantly monitor the low berths during flight.<BR>
<BR>
Passengers are defrosted on approach to their destination, a lounge,=20<BR>
fresher facilities and catering are provided to ensure that they=20<BR>
arrive refreshed.<BR>
<BR>
Passengers express a preference in advance whether they want to be=20<BR>
defrosted in the event of a long lay over. They generally stay in=20<BR>
their tubes during intermediate stops.<BR>
<BR>
The service has become popular with corporate and imperial trouble=20<BR>
shooters and 'riding the freezer' has acquired a certain executive=20<BR>
washroom credibility.<BR>
<BR>
Trailing Edge ran a number of successful promotional campaigns.=20<BR>
Tag lines included 'Why waste your life?' 'Dream away the light=20<BR>
years.' and 'Hit the Ground Running.'<BR>
<BR>
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
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</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV><BR>
This is a ship I'm designing for =use in an=20adventure scenario.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Xango Express Liner&nbsp; =(TL12)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Crew: standard 4 person bridge crew, 4 =engineers, 2=20medics, <BR>
2 stewards. (total 12)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>200 dTon SL Hull, DR 100. <BR>
Basic=20Bridge<BR>
Engineering<BR>
Utility<BR>
10 Manoeuvre<BR>
10 Jump-4<BR>
80 =Fuel<BR>
11=20Low Berths (44 tubes)<BR>
4 Passengers (48 seated)<BR>
7=20Staterooms<BR>
Sickbay<BR>
Secure Lockers (as 1 brig)<BR>
Lounge (as 2=20staterooms)<BR>
3 Hold (+2 in turrets)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Statistics<BR>
Emass - 293.5 =sTons<BR>
Lmass - 388.5=20sTons<BR>
Cost - 55.3 MCr<BR>
HP - 22,500<BR>
Size Modifier - =+8</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Performance<BR>
Acceleration (unloaded) =- - 3.41=20G<BR>
Acceleration (loaded) - 2.6 G<BR>
Jump - 4<BR>
Airspeed - 2,236=20mph</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>(note - this is a rough =text)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The Xango Express Liner represents a =new departure=20in high speed <BR>
executive travel.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>It was recently introduced by Trailing =Edge=20Spaceways to cater to <BR>
younger MegaCorp Executives and Imperial Civil =Servants. </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Generally following x-boat routes Xango =liners=20offer long haul <BR>
scheduled service from the Core to capitals and =major worlds=20in <BR>
the Ley, Fornost and Antares sectors.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Passengers are processed after take off =to reduce=20turn around time, <BR>
secure lockers are provided for confidential =documents=20etc, above and <BR>
beyond passenger baggage allowance.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Two medical staff and a fully equipped =sickbay=20ensure that low berth <BR>
fatalities are extremely uncommon. Additional=20engineering staff <BR>
constantly monitor the low berths during=20flight.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Passengers are defrosted on approach to =their=20destination, a lounge, <BR>
fresher facilities and catering are provided =to=20ensure that they <BR>
arrive refreshed.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Passengers express a preference in =advance whether=20they want to be <BR>
defrosted in the event of a long lay over. They =generally=20stay in <BR>
their tubes during intermediate stops.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The service has become popular with =corporate and=20imperial trouble <BR>
shooters and 'riding the freezer' has acquired a =certain=20executive <BR>
washroom credibility.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Trailing Edge ran a number of =successful=20promotional campaigns. <BR>
Tag lines included 'Why waste your life?' ='Dream away=20the light <BR>
years.' and 'Hit the Ground =Running.'</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BFC63B.8A510980--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2496<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2497</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	5/25/00 5:27:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2497<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
TML Landgrab - Trin/Trin's Veil<BR>
Re: Colonial Charters<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Client States<BR>
Re: Robots (was Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Site Submission reminder<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab - Trin/Trin's Veil<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Client states<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: History is Bunk<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
Re: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:33:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 12:02 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The highest number of particle decays will occur right in front of the barrel<BR>
<BR>
<waving hand madly><BR>
I thought nuclear damping technology was used to off-set this.<BR>
<BR>
I'm hearing more how meson guns don't work than how the might. Have they run<BR>
out of suspension-of-disbelief juice?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:40:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab - Trin/Trin's Veil<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
I hereby grab this planet cos nobody else has.<BR>
<BR>
BTW what is one cycle?<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have stellar data on Trin GT:BTC does not.<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm off to design an integrated grav transport system, a spooky<BR>
abandoned refuelling base and a peculiar ethnic group which may or<BR>
may not be a minor human race.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>I hereby grab this planet cos nobody =<BR>
else=20<BR>
has.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>BTW what is one cycle?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Does anyone have stellar data on Trin =<BR>
GT:BTC does=20<BR>
not.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Now I'm off to design an integrated =<BR>
grav transport=20<BR>
system, a spooky</DIV><BR>
<DIV>abandoned refuelling base and a =<BR>
peculiar ethnic=20<BR>
group which may or</DIV><BR>
<DIV>may not be a minor human =<BR>
race.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Ben</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BFC63D.F941B180--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:43:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Colonial Charters<BR>
<BR>
Actually, go up a directory and there are plenty of interesting historical<BR>
documents here. Other colonial charters, the Magna Carta, etc. Good stuff.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:55:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, the Navy had trouble getting thru to Pearl on the radio so<BR>
> they sent the warning via Western Union, and it wasn't marked urgent.<BR>
> It was delivered to the base commander hours *after* the attack.<BR>
 <BR>
Think about the commanders reaction when he read the message:<BR>
"Oh, now you tell me!<BR>
<BR>
"[R031]Pronto<BR>
Time flies like an arrow,<BR>
Fruit flies like a banana.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:27:16 -0500<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
Admittedly a poor choice of words.  My apologies.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win (was Re: Spec War Mind (kind of OT))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> J-man writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > Sorry to diasagree here Doug, but it WASN'T a sneak attack.  Our<BR>
military<BR>
> >  allowed Pearl Harbor to happen because they knew a Japanese attack<BR>
would<BR>
> >  happen anyway so they made sure it was one where the damage would be<BR>
> >  minimal.  Notice how our carriers just seemed to be out for maneuvers<BR>
> >  without any of their escort ships at the time?  (the pacific theatre<BR>
being<BR>
> a<BR>
> >  carrier-driven war anyway making battleships almost useless.)<BR>
><BR>
> An grand-uncle of mine was on the Nevada during Pearl Harbor. He saw the<BR>
> Arizona explode. He helped retrieve bodies from the harbor after the<BR>
attack<BR>
> was over. Please tell me again how the damage was minimal.<BR>
><BR>
> Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:30:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
On 24 May 00, at 12:59, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I believe, ultimately, that we only _lost_ one, the Arizona. Most of the<BR>
> >other ships and all the capital ships sunk at Pearl were raised, repaired and<BR>
> >went back to war.<BR>
<BR>
> Only the Utah was back in action before 1944, and the West Virgina and two<BR>
> others were total losses.  The *entire* battleship fleet was taken out of<BR>
> action for two years. -- <BR>
<BR>
Uhmm Doug, my copy of Conway's gives Utah, Oklahoma and Arizona as <BR>
being sunk on 7/12/41. But Utah was no longer a battleship by then (she <BR>
was converted to a remote controlled target ship in 1931). West Virgina <BR>
actually survived until 1959!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:25:03 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
There are two good reasons historically to become a client state.<BR>
<BR>
1.  Protection.  If threatened (real or imagined) by a neighboring state<BR>
you become a client of larger, faraway state that can overawe or at<BR>
least neutralize your enemy (or enemies), but at the same time is too<BR>
far away to actively interfer in your daily affairs.  Is also helped by<BR>
manipulating the political/religious/economic, etc fears of the<BR>
protecting major power.  A example in my campaign is Trelyn Domain in<BR>
Vanguard Reaches, founded by Imperial capitalists.  A second example is<BR>
the Tredhili race on Funafuti/Kajaani, both in the Vanguard Reaches, far<BR>
away from the Imperium, both surrounded by enemies/rivals. And also<BR>
there are the several planets in The Beyond sector who Zhodani clients<BR>
to avoid Imperial exploitation.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Slightly more sinister is the second reason: using the major power<BR>
who is your patron to mask you aggressive action.  In my campaign there<BR>
the small but aggressive Zydarian Codominium.  Also secretly, the two<BR>
major corsair bands of the Beyond (Webrunners, Dark Goddesses) are<BR>
clients of IBIS (Imperial Bureau of Investigative Services).<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Arthur Boff writes:<BR>
> >I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of the<BR>
> >Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives - so<BR>
> >don't flame me if this is canonically incorrect, but:<BR>
> <BR>
>         Welcome!  Don't worry too much about the canon thing.<BR>
>         Canon is a good place to start, but there are lots of<BR>
>         us who have moved a long way from it.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Could it be that some client states don't want to<BR>
> >comply with the various conditions that Imperial<BR>
> >membership entails, like:<BR>
> >- - Impy taxes (or maybe just _more_ Impy taxes).<BR>
> <BR>
>         I would expect some kind of revenue finding its way<BR>
>         to the Imperium from a client state, but perhaps it<BR>
>         is less (or at least less visible).<BR>
> <BR>
> >- - You're expected to generally agree with Imperial<BR>
> >policy if you're a client state, but if you're a<BR>
> >member world you have to agree with all the specifics.<BR>
> <BR>
>         I'm not sure that this would be an issue in general,<BR>
>         though it might be for some philisophically distinct<BR>
>         client states.<BR>
> <BR>
> >- - The ban on slavery - I imagine some client states<BR>
> >are havens for the slave trade.<BR>
> <BR>
>         This could be interesting.  I smell an adventure or<BR>
>         two...<BR>
> <BR>
> >Of course, if you're a client state then it's easier<BR>
> >to swap allegiances if you don't like the way Impy<BR>
> >policy is going than if you're an Imperial member<BR>
> >world.<BR>
> <BR>
>         The Imperial Navy doesn't like that sort of talk  ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:25:03 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
<BR>
There are two good reasons historically to become a client state.<BR>
<BR>
1.  Protection.  If threatened (real or imagined) by a neighboring state<BR>
you become a client of larger, faraway state that can overawe or at<BR>
least neutralize your enemy (or enemies), but at the same time is too<BR>
far away to actively interfer in your daily affairs.  Is also helped by<BR>
manipulating the political/religious/economic, etc fears of the<BR>
protecting major power.  A example in my campaign is Trelyn Domain in<BR>
Vanguard Reaches, founded by Imperial capitalists.  A second example is<BR>
the Tredhili race on Funafuti/Kajaani, both in the Vanguard Reaches, far<BR>
away from the Imperium, both surrounded by enemies/rivals. And also<BR>
there are the several planets in The Beyond sector who Zhodani clients<BR>
to avoid Imperial exploitation.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Slightly more sinister is the second reason: using the major power<BR>
who is your patron to mask you aggressive action.  In my campaign there<BR>
the small but aggressive Zydarian Codominium.  Also secretly, the two<BR>
major corsair bands of the Beyond (Webrunners, Dark Goddesses) are<BR>
clients of IBIS (Imperial Bureau of Investigative Services).<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Arthur Boff writes:<BR>
> >I'm a newbie to Trav - just read the CT Reprint of the<BR>
> >Books and a whole bunch of TML/X-boat archives - so<BR>
> >don't flame me if this is canonically incorrect, but:<BR>
> <BR>
>         Welcome!  Don't worry too much about the canon thing.<BR>
>         Canon is a good place to start, but there are lots of<BR>
>         us who have moved a long way from it.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Could it be that some client states don't want to<BR>
> >comply with the various conditions that Imperial<BR>
> >membership entails, like:<BR>
> >- - Impy taxes (or maybe just _more_ Impy taxes).<BR>
> <BR>
>         I would expect some kind of revenue finding its way<BR>
>         to the Imperium from a client state, but perhaps it<BR>
>         is less (or at least less visible).<BR>
> <BR>
> >- - You're expected to generally agree with Imperial<BR>
> >policy if you're a client state, but if you're a<BR>
> >member world you have to agree with all the specifics.<BR>
> <BR>
>         I'm not sure that this would be an issue in general,<BR>
>         though it might be for some philisophically distinct<BR>
>         client states.<BR>
> <BR>
> >- - The ban on slavery - I imagine some client states<BR>
> >are havens for the slave trade.<BR>
> <BR>
>         This could be interesting.  I smell an adventure or<BR>
>         two...<BR>
> <BR>
> >Of course, if you're a client state then it's easier<BR>
> >to swap allegiances if you don't like the way Impy<BR>
> >policy is going than if you're an Imperial member<BR>
> >world.<BR>
> <BR>
>         The Imperial Navy doesn't like that sort of talk  ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 03:34:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots (was Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> >Question.  Given the expense of battle dress, do military robots become cost<BR>
> >effective as a replacement?<BR>
<BR>
> Maybe, maybe not.  Robots may be more cost effective for some types <BR>
> of operations, but even with the cost of training the men in the <BR>
> battle dress you still have certain advantages that even the most <BR>
> advanced robots don't have as far as the brain behind the brawn is <BR>
> concerned.<BR>
<BR>
The 'most advanced' Robots are better than the troops in<BR>
Battle Dress (in terms of stats & skills) in CT/MT. In<BR>
CT a TL 15 INT 7 or better Robot will always respond normally (<BR>
i.e. like a sophont of the race it is programmed to emulate [1]<BR>
but will be 'minus any real creativity until TL 16'.<BR>
The question is what is 'real creativity' in terms of combat<BR>
effectiveness and how does it differ from simple possession<BR>
of the Tactics-4 skill (which can be programmed into a robot<BR>
but which would take a sophont in Battledress years to learn).<BR>
<BR>
However robots that can do this cost millions of credits.<BR>
To determine if humans in Battle dress are cost effective versus<BR>
robots of equal cost we need to be using a rules set that has<BR>
determined fairly precisely exactly how much it costs to recruit,<BR>
train, equip, transport, etc the Battledress troop. I'm not aware<BR>
of any Traveller rules set that establishes the cost in Cr or<BR>
military training (although I suppose you could use Mercenary<BR>
pay rules and general CT rules for use of Instruction skill I'm<BR>
not sure this will accurately model facilities costs).<BR>
<BR>
[1] Robot Reaction Table Bk. 8 p 43 - a roll of 12 on 2d6 is <BR>
'Roll Normal Reaction' our bot gets a +10 DM thus even if a <BR>
2 is rolled on the dice the bot will still respond normally.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:38:16 -0500<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Site Submission reminder<BR>
<BR>
Is there any other way to submit your url?  I filled out the form and it<BR>
didn't except because of server.  I tried to email using the listed<BR>
address "url@dmoz.org", but my server send the mail back as a<BR>
non-existent address.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
High Tortuga<BR>
<BR>
www.geocities.com/darkhstarr/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Sword-Worlder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I encourage all TML members who have web pages to list them with the<BR>
> Netscape directory project<BR>
>  http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Systems/Traveller/ ].  Also, if you know<BR>
> of any Traveller related sites or pages that are not listed there, please<BR>
> take a minute or two to submit those, as well.  I am an editor of the<BR>
> Traveller heading, but I do not have as much time as I'd like to scour the<BR>
> web and enter URLs.  I am able to process submissions on a regular basis,<BR>
> though, so please help me out.  I know there are many more than 92 sites to<BR>
> be cataloged! :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
> www.downport.com<BR>
> The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:34:01 +0100<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - Trin/Trin's Veil<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I hereby grab this planet cos nobody else has.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW what is one cycle?<BR>
<BR>
What ever you want it to be.  There was no time limit set in the original call<BR>
for volunteers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell <paul@kemitix.uklinux.net><BR>
12:34pm up 18 days, 17:36, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:53:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 11:24 PM, paul@kemitix.uklinux.net issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000, Talon wrote:<BR>
>> Thanks Doug!<BR>
>> what about IIRC and although not an acronym, fnord, if that is the right<BR>
>> word.<BR>
> <BR>
> If I remember correctly, IIRC stands for Imperial Interstellar<BR>
> Reconnaissance Corps. <g><BR>
<BR>
You're such a miscreant. ;)<BR>
<BR>
> As for fnord, your not cleared for that.  When you know what it means, then<BR>
> you'll be cleared for it.<BR>
<BR>
Read "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" by Robert Anton Wilson.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:57:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Client states<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 11:08 PM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Depends on who you ask.  Vilis would say so.<BR>
> The Imperium would disagree for the moment,<BR>
> since it is and Imperium Protectorate (at least<BR>
> mostly).  The Tanoosians would say "Hell No!<BR>
> Here, hold this pineapple, I'll be right back."<BR>
> "Hey, this isn't a KA-BOOOM!<BR>
<BR>
Yup. Notice that my Lanth6 map has "Tanoose", not Garda-Vilis.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 06:53:56 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 2:01 AM -0700 5/24/00, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
>>  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  A virus would be the choice agent.  Not easy to detect, particularly<BR>
>>  if it is a new strain.  Say viral hemoragic fever.  Something very<BR>
>>  lethal, with a contaigous period before it becomes symptomatic.  By<BR>
>>  the time you know it's there, it's too late.  Make it easy to seize<BR>
>>  the facility you want, too.  No survivors equals no vector.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Lassa fever is a great example.  It hasn't spread much because it<BR>
>>  tends to kill everyone in a locale before they spread it elsewhere<BR>
>>  (good thing!). Highly contiagius, highly lethal.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Yes, It's evil.  But if your opponent is evil...<BR>
><BR>
>Then you'll be as or more evil to win???  That's exactly the sort of<BR>
>ends-justify-the-means thinking that leads to all manner of horrors.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm reminded of a short story I read *many* years ago, where the<BR>
>Soviets nuked the US and most of our half of the world and the<BR>
>response by the (very) few dying survivors (who had been attacked<BR>
>too suddenly to launch a counter attack) was they they would die<BR>
>with their missiles unlaunched since if they did that at least a<BR>
>portion of humanity would survive.  A counterattack would have<BR>
>toasted the Soviets and their portion of the world as badly as their<BR>
>attack toasted the other half and likely made humanity extinct.<BR>
><BR>
>Such a decision fits my definition of true heroism and honorable<BR>
>action, sinking to the level of your opponents is best outgrown in<BR>
>grade school.  Btw, anyone here remember the name or author of<BR>
>this story?<BR>
<BR>
If it's the same story I'm thinking of, I believe it's an Asimov<BR>
story.  It's written from the point of view of astronauts in an<BR>
orbiting weapons platform who have the option of counterattcking<BR>
with nuclear missiles but their president orders them not to,<BR>
on the premise that humanity might not survive if they did and<BR>
an attack wouldn't save their homeland.  It turns out in the end<BR>
that the astronauts are Soviet cosmonauts and the president is<BR>
the President of the Soviet Union.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:16:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, our main problem with meson tech seems to be that we don't know<BR>
> exactly when a specific meson will decay. If we knew this, we could<BR>
> bring each meson to its own "rewuired reltivistic speed" to let it decay<BR>
> in the target. I know, current physics say that this is not possible,<BR>
> but let us assume that the TravTech inventors are a bit ahead of our own<BR>
> understanding of physical laws. Therefore, each meson is either <BR>
><BR>
> a) examined and accelerated to the speed needed for the effect or<BR>
> b) created with a specific life time (sic!), which is the same for all<BR>
> weapons and thus the required relativistic speed is identical for all<BR>
> weapons the beam.<BR>
><BR>
> I am sure that all you physicians at this list will say "ARG!", but<BR>
> after all, you don't know how to build a jump drve, do you? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
<BR>
And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
*that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
happening. <BR>
<BR>
That's the problem with a lot of SF type ideas. The ability to do X,<BR>
often includes the ability to do Y and Z. So you have to explain why<BR>
folks can do X aren't also doing Y and Z.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:09:15 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: History is Bunk<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
>   The Japanese are a conspicuous example; OTOH, it often seems<BR>
> that Germans (ForEx) have reached a far better balance overall<BR>
> than many others.<BR>
<BR>
It is *illegal* to publish "Mein Kampf" in German in Germany...<BR>
<BR>
This is very sad, since reading even parts of this book shows you what a<BR>
complete loon Hitler was. If you have at least one functional brain<BR>
cell, reading that book will make you feel nothing but contempt for the<BR>
nazis.<BR>
<BR>
My family has a number of friends (and some relatives) in Germany. One<BR>
of them tries to study the nazi era. He had to get the book from<BR>
Sweden...<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:16:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I don't recall it psi has the range for interplanetary work or not. If<BR>
> it does, then the speed will have been measured for sure. We are<BR>
> talking about minutes to *hours* of lag time.<BR>
 <BR>
In MT psionics work at interplanetary range. In MT psionics<BR>
have a base cost and Range costs are added to this.<BR>
<BR>
If we take the case of a Psi Str 15 (possibly gained with<BR>
Psi drugs) with Telepathy she can, by spending all 15<BR>
points do a Life Sense on all objects within  1,000 AU<BR>
[Cost 1 + Range, Range 14 is System, max range 1,000 AU]<BR>
Therefore she can detect the number, general type, and<BR>
approximate location of all life.<BR>
<BR>
1,000 AU is (in Traveller) 1.5 x 10^11 (150 billion)<BR>
km. Since light in a vacuum travels at roughly 300,000<BR>
kps this is 500,000 light second, 138.89 light hours,<BR>
or about 5 & 3/4 light days.<BR>
<BR>
Since Teleportation cost is 0 + Range a Psi Str 15<BR>
teleporter can, by spending all 15 points, achieve<BR>
a maximum range of Sub stellar or 100,000 AU's. This<BR>
is half a parsec or over 1.5 Light years. The MT Psionics <BR>
rules never mention speed of light lag anywhere. I take <BR>
this to mean that Psionics are instant. "Psionic activity,<BR>
at the ranges given, is effectively instantaneous."<BR>
<BR>
Given that (according to the Rules) a Teleport can<BR>
have a maximum range of half a parsec A very talented<BR>
Psionicist can therefore Travel between worlds faster<BR>
than a ship can jump between them.<BR>
<BR>
Picture this scenario. We have a very skilled Zhodani<BR>
Jump Commando with Str 12 Psi 12 and Teleportation skill <BR>
12. He is on a ship orbiting a Zhodani World with a very<BR>
limited Naval presence. One Parsec away is a Zhodani<BR>
Naval base. The Zhodani have to get word to the base as<BR>
fast as possible so ships from the base can save the system.<BR>
<BR>
Our Jump Commando can pop a single Psi Booster and become<BR>
Psi Str 15. He then Teleports half a Parsec towards the<BR>
other system carrying 12 kilos of equipment (including<BR>
a space suit & air [This is a Formidable Task so he needs <BR>
to roll a 15+ to succeed, he has a +12 so he will only fail <BR>
if a 2 is rolled]. He instantly pops out half way to the<BR>
base. Three hours later he starts to recover Psi points.<BR>
Twelve hours later (a total of 15 hours) he is back to<BR>
Psi 12. He then pops another Psi Booster & Teleports the <BR>
other half a Parsec. He has retained the speed of his old<BR>
system so he is traveling very fast relative to the new system.<BR>
He then Radios the Naval base & they send help to the<BR>
other system. Total elapsed time: 15 hours and a few seconds,<BR>
total distance traveled 1 Parsec. At TL 14 a space suit &<BR>
a days air supply weigh less than 12 kilos so our teleporter<BR>
won't run out of air along the way, although he may well be<BR>
killed by a micro meteorite traveling (relative to him) at<BR>
extreme speed.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand the rules also state that "Psionics have<BR>
proven incapable of interplanetary ranges." [p 97] If<BR>
you read this as meaning "Psionics are incapable of attaining<BR>
Range 12 (Interplanetary Range) or _greater_." than Psionics<BR>
are limited to range 12 and the above egregious threat to canon<BR>
can not exist.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 04:19:22 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Haven't the Knights Templar (who are Christians) been<BR>
> running Israel's military and especially its elite forces<BR>
> since at least 1948?<BR>
<BR>
The Knights Templar are not Christians they are satanic devil <BR>
worshipers as was established by a French court. [g, d, r]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:22:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
I apologize beforehand for contributing to this thread, but I absolutely<BR>
cannot let this pass by without comment. :-(<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>     Actually, the Allies did not have a choice about bombing innocents, the<BR>
> Axis placed their factory workers near the factories.<BR>
<BR>
Many civilians had fled to Dresden because it was not an important<BR>
military target. The allies knew this. They still bombed the city to<BR>
cinders. To destroy morale...<BR>
<BR>
The allies would probably have won the war anyway, but it might have<BR>
taken longer (which would have been a pain for the soldiers on the<BR>
front). If it was worth killing that many civilians is up to everyone's<BR>
personal opinion. Please do not discuss this on the list.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone feels the need to flame me for this statement, do so, but I<BR>
will not reply to flames posted to the list. Mail me in private if you<BR>
really need to.<BR>
<BR>
> Look, boy (as you do not like to be called son, & you sure as hell are not a<BR>
> man), the first thing you have to learn is that no one, but no one calls<BR>
> anyone on this ML a moron, but me.<BR>
<BR>
Wrong. No one calls anyone on this ML a moron. Period.<BR>
<BR>
>     As for the sales of Mein Kampf & the Communist Manifesto, I have read<BR>
> both, & I tend to think that Mein Kampf is the work of a sick & twisted<BR>
> mind, much like your mind is sick & twisted.<BR>
<BR>
Do not, I repeat *do not* compare anyone with A. Hitler. That is<BR>
probably one of the most offensive comments possible.<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:25:34 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Viking Op Ords and Distibution<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav wrote:<BR>
> They were vikings, and nobody seemed to ask their place of<BR>
> origin at that time, did they?<BR>
<BR>
The distinctions between the modern Nordic countries did not exist as<BR>
such, although the different areas were sealed off by natural obstacles.<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:26:24 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Warning......<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> Subject: VIRUS for LINUX/UNIX/MAC!<BR>
> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> <BR>
> Attention Linux/Unix/OS2/MAC Users:<BR>
> This virus operates on the honor system. Please mail this message<BR>
> to every email address on your system and randomly delete a<BR>
> number of files from your hard drive.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
LOL!<BR>
<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  | http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/ |<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se   |                                 |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745          +---------------------------------+<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
| Linkping, Sweden, Europe |   Insert your own wisdom here   |<BR>
|                           |                                 |<BR>
+---------------------------+---------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2497<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2498</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2498<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Gladiator<BR>
Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: The will to win<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: messoncannons<BR>
Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
Strategic Bombing (Re: The Will to Win)<BR>
Re: Officers<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
RE: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Mercenaries IRL...<BR>
Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:56:06 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gladiator<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 24 May 2000 13:26:54 -0700 (PDT), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
><BR>
>>One bad thing about the movie: My wife is now in love with<BR>
><BR>
>>RussellCrowe. How can I compete?<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, I'm not worried.  My girlfriend has already seen me<BR>
>throw a 220-pound black belt over my shoulder.  I admit<BR>
>that I don't have Crowe's pec's however.  I guess I'll have<BR>
>to work out a little harder for a few months.  (We'll<BR>
>probably see it this weekend.)<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that I'll just have to learn a little Kuk Soo Won (sp?)<BR>
while I'm in Korea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:45:22 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trading Coastals/Cartels<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
<BR>
That is a PERFECT setting for a backwater world in Traveller.<BR>
Just yesterday I was thinking that the campaign I run needs<BR>
to spend some time on a world surface, in a low-tech locale.<BR>
The group would need a home base plus some leads as to the<BR>
whereabouts to a couple of starship hulks that just might<BR>
fly... plus enough local detail and adventure hooks to keep<BR>
them happy just running around on the surface for awhile.<BR>
<BR>
The setting you describe sounds great for just such an<BR>
adventure.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I got to thinking about this and decided to look up the Hanseatic<BR>
> League and spent a couple hours browsing the history and geography.<BR>
> You know this isn't Traveller, but it would be an absolutely<BR>
> *wonderful* setting for roleplaying.<BR>
> <BR>
> You have dozens of small cities along an enclosed sea with a very<BR>
> ragged coastline.  The cities make there living from trade, not<BR>
> only with each other, but with towns down the rivers that drain into<BR>
> the enclosed sea.<BR>
> <BR>
> You have trade, piracy, poor navigation, storms, multiple ethnic<BR>
> and religions and all forms of politics to deal with.  There are<BR>
> dozens of small states and independent towns all fighting,<BR>
> competing, and intreging with with each other.<BR>
> <BR>
> This looks like a perfect setting for roleplaying!<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:04:47 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 5/24/00 12:02 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > The highest number of particle decays will occur right in front of the barrel<BR>
> <BR>
> <waving hand madly><BR>
> I thought nuclear damping technology was used to off-set this.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm hearing more how meson guns don't work than how the might. Have they run<BR>
> out of suspension-of-disbelief juice?<BR>
<BR>
I don't think so. It's just that we are technobabbling, and therefore we<BR>
have to look at all problems with canon's consistency on the matter. <BR>
<BR>
CU, <BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:05:02 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 schrieb:<BR>
<BR>
> True, but given the limitations of robot intelligence vs. human intelligence<BR>
> (except for Hiver warbots of course) it could take a lot of warbots to be<BR>
> able to achieve the same goals as human troops if in fact they could match<BR>
> the humans at all.<BR>
<BR>
For a regular infantry battle, creativity isn't that much required. Just<BR>
give the robot a database with _a_lot_ of different solutions for<BR>
certain problems, for not letting them be too foreseeable, and then<BR>
fight quality with quantity (you can be a great tactictian and lose<BR>
against an enemy who has no problem with "dying" in defeating you -if<BR>
necessary(ten dog-sized milibots are better than one man-sized "creative<BR>
mind in battle dress")). Also, inter-unit-communication can be much<BR>
faster (not as seen at SW:Episode I, where the Droids actually *talked*<BR>
to each other)and it is not necessary for every "soldier" to have the<BR>
same intelligence as a sophont. The IQ of a dog would be more than<BR>
required, with a few armoured "think tanks" with larger brains (plus<BR>
perhaps a sophont operator) in the second line. Even substracting a<BR>
dog's creaticity wouldn't hurt- possible be even usefull unless your<BR>
enemy can cut off communication. But how do this with a meson<BR>
communication system? Meson screens over the entire area? You could bomb<BR>
the area then. And still, a large group of non-creative, but<BR>
"experienced" dog-minds with gauss rifles would be a match for some Army<BR>
men I know... but I am ex-Navy, so forget what I just wrote...:-)<BR>
<BR>
Most military situations are more or less standard problems, requiring<BR>
slight modification of existing tactics. You do not need to be creative<BR>
for this. (Though I admit that with new technolgy on either side, this<BR>
is fals. But OTOTH, that is not _that_ common in OTU.)<BR>
 <BR>
> >Of course, this is not true for the 3I, because the cultural influence<BR>
> of the Vilani would probably block this approach. The Solomani<BR>
> Condfederation, on the other hand... </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><<BR>
> <BR>
> Large numbers of Solomani hate the thought of robots doing any human jobs no<BR>
> matter what. As well, in addition to the SSMM they also get the 50th century<BR>
> Luddites causing trouble if they try such.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I guess it, but just to be sure: What are "Luddites"?<BR>
<BR>
And where do the Solomani draw the line between a robot and an automized<BR>
industrial facility (or a part of it)? Sounds as if they were damned to<BR>
lose any economical competition with the 3I, the Hivers _and_ the Aslan<BR>
clans at their border. Not to speak of the military...<BR>
<BR>
And an additional question: How do Solomani historians explain this<BR>
shift from the Interstellar Wars attitude to the exact opposite (well,<BR>
sort of)? Are they aware of it, at all?<BR>
<BR>
Finallly: An idea for a pocket Empire beyond Imperial space: A class 2<BR>
gouvernment of a few thousand sophonts, running an entire TTL12/GTL 10<BR>
empire (a dozen worlds or so) with Robots. Robots in the Navy, robots<BR>
ine Army, robots everywhere. Not too smart, these machines, but they are<BR>
capable of doing their specific jobs. As long as there is no external<BR>
threat, this could expand to a quite large structure, with groups of<BR>
worlds without any sophont being visting for decades...<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:11:37 +0200<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Ingo.Heinscher@germanynet.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson schrieb:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Okay, our main problem with meson tech seems to be that we don't know<BR>
> > exactly when a specific meson will decay. If we knew this, we could<BR>
> > bring each meson to its own "rewuired reltivistic speed" to let it decay<BR>
> > in the target. I know, current physics say that this is not possible,<BR>
> > but let us assume that the TravTech inventors are a bit ahead of our own<BR>
> > understanding of physical laws. Therefore, each meson is either<BR>
> ><BR>
> > a) examined and accelerated to the speed needed for the effect or<BR>
> > b) created with a specific life time (sic!), which is the same for all<BR>
> > weapons and thus the required relativistic speed is identical for all<BR>
> > weapons the beam.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I am sure that all you physicians at this list will say "ARG!", but<BR>
> > after all, you don't know how to build a jump drve, do you? ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
<BR>
Ooops. Sorry. I once knew that, but I somehow lost it. Thanks for<BR>
reminding me.<BR>
<BR>
I probaly need a physician for my brain... :-)<BR>
 <BR>
> And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
> *that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
> happening.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's the problem with a lot of SF type ideas. The ability to do X,<BR>
> often includes the ability to do Y and Z. So you have to explain why<BR>
> folks can do X aren't also doing Y and Z.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I am curious: What would this lead to? If we candetermine the<BR>
lifetime of single quantum particles prior to decay, which spin-off<BR>
technolgies would become possible (and economicaly interesting)?<BR>
<BR>
CU,<BR>
<BR>
Ingo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:36:59 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The will to win<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>They tried to surrender and were refused because American extremists<BR>
>>demanded vengeance and an unconditional surrender.<BR>
><BR>
>Ever read the conditions?  No war crimes trials, no restitutions, they get<BR>
>to keep what ever they were holding at the end of the war...  <BR>
<BR>
Are you sure this is correct? If it is, then I certainly don't blame the<BR>
Americans for chosing to use A-bombs over an invasion. However, I've been<BR>
told that at the end the only condition the Japanese held out for was that<BR>
the Emperor should be guaranteed immunity. If this is the case, then I do<BR>
consider it criminal to kill hundreds of thousands in order to be able to<BR>
punish one war criminal (_Especially_ in the light of the fact that in the<BR>
end they chose not to punish the Emperor).<BR>
<BR>
>No. The Japanese Empire started the war with sneak attacks on American and<BR>
>British forces, and spent four years behaving like monsters. <BR>
<BR>
Western civilization is supposed to have a concept of differing between<BR>
military and civilians and between perpretators and bystanders. Of course,<BR>
this is all a matter of degree. If the only choice lay between killing<BR>
a lot of enemy civilians and having even more of your own troops killed,<BR>
then killing enemy civilians is the right choice. The thing i'm not sure<BR>
of is that it was the ONLY choice. If the Japanese really were down to<BR>
demanding immunity for the Emperor alone, then it wasn't.<BR>
<BR>
>They used American prisoners of war for *BAYONET PRACTICE*<BR>
<BR>
And shooting everyone who was involved in such bayonet practice would be<BR>
quite justified. You'd shoot any American soldier who did that too, wouldn't<BR>
you? But killing their family? Killing people who were just living in the<BR>
same country?<BR>
<BR>
>They were damn lucky that CNN wasn't around when we started getting our<BR>
>prisoners back, or you might still be unable to set foot on the glowing<BR>
>remnants of Japan.<BR>
<BR>
Mass retaliation is considered a no-no, isn't it? That's one of the things<BR>
Germans and Japanese have been shot for, IIRC. One of the things I<BR>
thoroughly approve of about our culture is the concept that your own<BR>
soldiers are not allowed to do what you won't tolerate the enemy doing<BR>
(Well, that's the theory, anyway).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their<BR>
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"<BR>
                                (after Tom Lehrer)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:50:29 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>2) Since marine regiments are not significantly better than other TL 15<BR>
>>   troops (I checked the descriptions of the 4518th in JTAS9 and marine<BR>
>>   regiments in JTAS12 and they have roughly the same number of people),<BR>
>>   does that mean that Battle Dresses are pretty useless or that all other<BR>
>>   TL 15 troops use them too?<BR>
> <BR>
>Alternatively it could mean that both the 4518th and all<BR>
>Marine Regiments (or at least all 5FW Marine Regiments) are<BR>
>at a similar high level of quality and are equally well equipped.<BR>
<BR>
Except that, as I've mentioned before, the 4518th is better equipped and<BR>
more efficient than the marine regiments. The 4518th is armored (well, 5 of<BR>
it's 6 battalions are armored), which makes them twice as powerful as the<BR>
marine regiments, and it is elite, which only two out of eight of the marine<BR>
regiments are. In short, the 4518th has an effective combat factor of 22<BR>
whereas six of the marine regiments have an effective combat factor of 5<BR>
and the remaining two have 10.<BR>
<BR>
>Other TL F Regiments might be inferior.<BR>
 <BR>
Only insofar as fewer of them are elite. The rule says that 10% of them are<BR>
elite rather than the 25% of marine regiments that are elite. But an ordinary<BR>
(not armored) TL-15 regiment has the same combat factor as an ordinary marine<BR>
regiment and an elite regiment has the same combat factor as an elite marine<BR>
regiment (Though, as Doug pointed out, they are not jump troops).<BR>
<BR>
Armored regiments are, of course, twice as powerful as marine regiments.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:51:05 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: messoncannons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ooh, I like this!  A neutrino-antineutrino beam.  And there is some sort<BR>
>of relationship between mesons and neutrinos, isn't there? <scratches<BR>
>head, nope can't remember>  <BR>
<BR>
Are you thinking of Muons?<BR>
<BR>
IIRC there are three types of neutrino, one relates to the electron,<BR>
one to the Tau Muon and one to another Muon.<BR>
<BR>
(and similarly for the antiparticles of each, of course)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:53:06 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
I can't believe I'm replying to one of these inane threads, but...<BR>
<BR>
"Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
> Do not, I repeat *do not* compare anyone with A. Hitler. That is<BR>
> probably one of the most offensive comments possible.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I do not find it so much offensive as, well, unimaginative.<BR>
It's right up there with "poopy-head", "motherfucker" (pardon my <BR>
language) and other pejoratives that are essentially meaningless after<BR>
being ground into the dirt by uninspired potty-mouths the world around.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:05:39 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mesoncannons<BR>
<BR>
So, here's my two cents on meson can(n)ons...<BR>
<BR>
As ususal, we have to bring the Various Magic Bits of Traveller <BR>
technology (VMBoTT) into the picture:<BR>
<BR>
 (a) gravitics<BR>
 (b) nuclear dampening (direct manipulation of the strong and/or weak<BR>
   forces) (and this may be in some way related to (a))<BR>
 (c) fusion power (probably related to both (a) and (b))<BR>
 (d) the ability to accelerate particles to right-next-to-c (thanks<BR>
   to copious amounts of power from (c))<BR>
and finally,<BR>
 (e) jump technology, which does who-knows-what.<BR>
<BR>
We know that nuclear dampers can be used at significant ranges, as<BR>
they're listed as shipboard defences from nuclear missles. It is perhaps<BR>
conceivable the there is a lingering effect on particles once they leave<BR>
the "dampener field", which would be prolonged when particles are moving at<BR>
near-c (let's assume that the effect lingers for about one microsecond in<BR>
the local frame of reference - at near-c, that would be quite a bit longer<BR>
to an outside observer). This allows us (or, well, our characters) to<BR>
control the actual rate of decay and perhaps even re-shape the probability<BR>
distribution function for particle decay. Thus actual mesons and not just<BR>
Bob Meson's could be involved.<BR>
<BR>
(Total off topic: Hi, I'm Bob Meson and *I* *AM* *IMPERIAL*!)<BR>
<BR>
The possibility of having the particles "jump" is interesting, but there's<BR>
no canonical reference to that I'm aware of... jump is presented as a<BR>
pretty separate technology that has little or no relation to the other<BR>
VMBoTT, which of course leads me to my pet theory that Jump drives was<BR>
never invented, but in fact merely discovered and copied from Ancient<BR>
artif... <whack> *thud* <drag><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:08:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Strategic Bombing (Re: The Will to Win)<BR>
<BR>
samwise1 wrote:<BR>
>There are quite a few who think strategic bombing of <BR>
>factories and infrastructure is a mstake however and <BR>
>that is was I referring to.<BR>
<BR>
It used up German men (pilots & AA crew), German <BR>
materials (defensive fighter planes, aviation fuel,<BR>
AA guns, AA and fighter weaponry ammunition),<BR>
German morale, and German effort, none of which were<BR>
thus available to strengthen defenses against the<BR>
upcoming Allied invasions.  Would it have been a<BR>
better move to leave Germany and her conquests alone<BR>
until such invasions were ready to proceed?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how much faster the invasions could have<BR>
taken place if the resources spent on the RAF's<BR>
bomber command and the 8th Air Force had been diverted<BR>
to preparing the amphibious assaults...I'm certain<BR>
that the assaults would have been much more strongly <BR>
opposed if the resources spent on strategic air<BR>
defense had been available to the builders of the <BR>
Atlantic Wall.<BR>
<BR>
For an ObTrav perspective, Strategic Bombing seems<BR>
to have gotten a reputation as a black war technique,<BR>
the kind of thing that (at the height of the 3I)<BR>
got the Imperium to intervene in a brush war.<BR>
Not that the Imperium doesn't use it, as the <BR>
communiques just after the 5th Frontier War show<BR>
(Sword Worlds complaining that deep-penetration<BR>
raiders had severely harmed their infrastructure).<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:13:23 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Officers<BR>
<BR>
Clay <arioch@theriver.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Now that you mention it, I think the Imperium should have far more<BR>
>officers than they need.  Probably far too many, since rank is affected<BR>
>by social status.  There is bound to be a large number of officers<BR>
>commissioned and promoted based on social connection/status alone rather<BR>
>than ability or competency.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
The 4518th, one of the best regiments in the Spinward Marches, has 182<BR>
officers and 2464 other ranks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:31:20 -0700<BR>
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> In MT psionics work at interplanetary range. In MT psionics<BR>
> have a base cost and Range costs are added to this.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand the rules also state that "Psionics have<BR>
> proven incapable of interplanetary ranges." [p 97] If<BR>
> you read this as meaning "Psionics are incapable of attaining<BR>
> Range 12 (Interplanetary Range) or _greater_." than Psionics<BR>
> are limited to range 12 and the above egregious threat to canon<BR>
> can not exist.<BR>
<BR>
It lists costs up to Extreme Orbit (12), then the rules state "Psionics<BR>
has proven incapable of interplanetary ranges".  That looks pretty clear<BR>
cut to me.<BR>
<BR>
So, even with the speed of light limitation, the only time a lag would<BR>
occur would be so costly to the psi that only one message would be sent<BR>
(supposing they are powerful and/or drugged up enough to do it in the<BR>
first place).  So, no significant lag would be perceived.<BR>
<BR>
If the situation is so intense that seconds may matter, I wouldn't take<BR>
out a calculator or even give a moments thought to figuring out exactly<BR>
how long it would take.  Doing that would stall and ruin the atmosphere<BR>
of the game.<BR>
<BR>
Clay<BR>
<BR>
I'm just here to play the game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:43:15 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
>Subject: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
...<BR>
>Originally it was a _very_ political setting.  Of course you<BR>
>could ignore that and ride north to battle the demigod Iuz'<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
  For _real_ OT, any idea what an unopened original Greyhawk map &<BR>
Gazeteer folio is worth these days? Probably more than my few spare<BR>
Trav books remaining :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:45:21 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Hey, any assholes want to take the personal insults off list? Everything<BR>
about the morality of the Axis and the Allies should be debatable in a calm<BR>
manner without resorting to ad hominem attacks (which Sam seems to be the<BR>
main target of despite raising some thought provoking questions, he isn't<BR>
exactly the only person to be controversial on this list).<BR>
What is it about email lists that get people to be so uncivil to each other,<BR>
huh? Is it the relative anonymity? The assurance that if you insult someone<BR>
they won't reach out and rearrange your nose?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And for what it's worth with the Double Talk threat, there's a big<BR>
difference between EXPLAINING the Japanese viewpoint and JUSTIFYING it to<BR>
someone with a Western viewpoint. The discussion about Japan's different<BR>
rules of warfare was an attempt to EXPLAIN why they came to different<BR>
conclusions about the treatment of prisoners for your understanding, not to<BR>
JUSTIFY them within your moral framework. I get this fundamental lack of<BR>
understanding between the two concepts whenever I explain why the IRA does<BR>
what it does (my grad school field being Irish political history).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:49:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember that in  CT  Adventure  2:  "Research  Station<BR>
Gamma" the staion was investigating using psionics as  the  basis<BR>
of a FTL interstellar commo system.  This suggests  a  difference<BR>
between what psionicists are *currently* capable of and what  the<BR>
full potential might be.<BR>
<BR>
I've  always  played  psionic  effects  as   near   instantaneous<BR>
regardless of distance.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 05:00:57 -1000<BR>
From: Veskrashen <veskrashen@sprynet.com><BR>
Subject: Mercenaries IRL...<BR>
<BR>
I ran across this site via another list I'm on. It's a website for a<BR>
real-world "Private Military Company". Interesting, and a good idea of<BR>
how they might be set up in the abscence of any central authority.<BR>
<BR>
www.sandline.com<BR>
<BR>
- -Ves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:10:59 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Speed of Psionics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Our Jump Commando can pop a single Psi Booster and become<BR>
Psi Str 15. He then Teleports half a Parsec towards the<BR>
other system carrying 12 kilos of equipment (including<BR>
a space suit & air [This is a Formidable Task so he needs<BR>
to roll a 15+ to succeed, he has a +12 so he will only fail<BR>
if a 2 is rolled]. He instantly pops out half way to the<BR>
base.<<<<<BR>
<BR>
He will also be a block of frozen ice, unless he starts out from about the<BR>
orbit of Pluto, I believe...see Niven's "Theory and Practice of<BR>
Teleportation."<BR>
<BR>
Despite what Trav says about "energy compensators," I don't see how they can<BR>
be possible for psi transport...wouldn't pumping energy into a person (to<BR>
avoid conversion of kinetic to potential energy) just increase the energy<BR>
required to teleport?<BR>
<BR>
>>>The MT Psionics<BR>
rules never mention speed of light lag anywhere. I take<BR>
this to mean that Psionics are instant. "Psionic activity,<BR>
at the ranges given, is effectively instantaneous."<<<<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that this line was carried over from the LBBs without checking it<BR>
against the revised rules, a common error in the MT texts. It makes much<BR>
more sense in the context of CT's maximum range of Plantetary.<BR>
<BR>
If psi isn't limited by lightspeed, it would theoretically be possible to<BR>
set up a chain of deep space bases staffed by telepaths, giving you almost<BR>
instantaneous communication, and we wouldn't want *that* :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:00:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
>   For _real_ OT, any idea what an unopened original Greyhawk map &<BR>
> Gazeteer folio is worth these days? Probably more than my few spare<BR>
> Trav books remaining :)<BR>
><BR>
Not really. On a good day you can probably buy one for $15<BR>
on eBay. (I know because I bought one... then looked through my<BR>
parents' attic and found my old copy. Curses! Although the map<BR>
was missing so it wasn't a total waste.)<BR>
<BR>
The later *box sets*, however, are worth twice or even three times<BR>
that amount, probably because (a) they didn't sell as many and (b)<BR>
they had a lot more information.<BR>
<BR>
As a general rule, classic Traveller stuff seems to go for more than<BR>
equivalent D&D material. My guesses, again, are that D&D was<BR>
so popular that it's easy to find the old stuff, and Traveller fans<BR>
are a lot more fanatical. (As if we haven't noticed *that*.) :-)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:24:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deterministic Meson technology<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Physicists. Physicians are medical doctors.<BR>
> <BR>
> And the problem with this is that anything that would let them do<BR>
> *that* would also allow doing a lot of other things that we don't see<BR>
> happening. <BR>
<BR>
You mean like...controlling the rate of radioactive decay in radioactive elements? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Based on the existence of nuclear dampers, particle decay probably can be influenced in some obscure manner.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:28:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
At 11:11 PM 5/24/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote;<BR>
<BR>
Note this came from a personal email.  I tried to take this off list, but<BR>
samwise1 seems to feel that personal mail is fair game.<BR>
<BR>
Also, he has gone clif faster than clif did.   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:09:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
At 12:37 AM 5/25/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Thanks Doug!<BR>
>what about IIRC and although not an acronym, fnord, if that is the right<BR>
>word.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC: If I Remember Correctly<BR>
<BR>
fnord.  Means this: You.. bj%JrJ5 r63eB((&Fnsbm  ...rdb ryy<BR>
  chinese laundryo8wtb bb <BR>
<BR>
NO CARRIER<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:20:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 11:10 PM 5/24/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually given American psychology (The Shot heard 'round the world!<BR>
>Remember the Alamo! Remember the Maine! Remember Pearl Harbor!) if I had<BR>
>absolutely no morals and could sacrifice my own soldiers in such an utterly<BR>
>depraved manner, I would do exactly that because of the incredible moral<BR>
>advantage I would gain.  Even Yamamoto said the attack had merely "woken a<BR>
>sleeping giant"<BR>
<BR>
"The Shot Hear 'Round The World" wasn't a cultural icon until years later.<BR>
At the time, it was a minor skimirish.  The Alamo was a Texan thing, during<BR>
a time that they were independant.  The Maine was used by William Hearst to<BR>
whip up newspaper circulation.<BR>
<BR>
Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration of War<BR>
had not been delviered in time.<BR>
<BR>
>I think he meant in a strategic context.<BR>
<BR>
The attack on Pearl crippled several drydocks, destroyed hundreds of<BR>
aircraft, and killed thousands of irreplacable navy NCOs and officers.<BR>
Strategically, it was devastating.  That's why Midway was so important, it<BR>
brough parity back to the Pacific theatre, along with giving the US Navy a<BR>
badly needly overwhelming victory.<BR>
<BR>
Without the Magic intercepts, we lose the Pacific War.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2498<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2499</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2499<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Re: Political Battleships<BR>
Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: New Member Quiz<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
RE: acronyms<BR>
Military Mistakes (was Re: The Will to Win...)<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: New Member Quiz<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2491<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Newbie Quiz<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
RE: Mercenaries IRL<BR>
Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
Re: acronyms<BR>
Re: Sweden as world power <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:21:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 11:30 PM 5/25/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Uhmm Doug, my copy of Conway's gives Utah, Oklahoma and Arizona as <BR>
>being sunk on 7/12/41. But Utah was no longer a battleship by then (she <BR>
>was converted to a remote controlled target ship in 1931). West Virgina <BR>
>actually survived until 1959!<BR>
<BR>
Brain spasm.  <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Milibots(was: Re: TML vs sleep)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Finallly: An idea for a pocket Empire beyond Imperial space: A class 2<BR>
> gouvernment of a few thousand sophonts, running an entire TTL12/GTL 10<BR>
> empire (a dozen worlds or so) with Robots. Robots in the Navy, robots<BR>
> ine Army, robots everywhere. Not too smart, these machines, but they are<BR>
> capable of doing their specific jobs. As long as there is no external<BR>
> threat, this could expand to a quite large structure, with groups of<BR>
> worlds without any sophont being visting for decades...<BR>
Well, consider Sabmiqys (2117 Antares).  Only a single world, but I believe its supposed to be a robot society (listed population is, incidentally, a total of 5).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:38:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:43:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
on 5/25/00 9:20 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> advantage I would gain.  Even Yamamoto said the attack had merely "woken a<BR>
>> sleeping giant"<BR>
> <BR>
> "The Shot Hear 'Round The World" wasn't a cultural icon until years later.<BR>
> At the time, it was a minor skimirish.  The Alamo was a Texan thing, during<BR>
> a time that they were independant.  The Maine was used by William Hearst to<BR>
> whip up newspaper circulation.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration of War<BR>
> had not been delviered in time.<BR>
<BR>
Yamamoto opposed war with America.  He studied in the US and had a very good<BR>
idea of the industrial capacity of the US (a key factor in modern war).<BR>
When the time came, despite his personal misgivings, he did his duty.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:56:01 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
<BR>
Well, AFAIK, it stands for 'As Far As I Know'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:02:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
on 5/25/00 9:38 AM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
As Far As I Know<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:01:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
>what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:04:39<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Political Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 09:43 AM 5/25/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>on 5/25/00 9:20 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Yamamoto's comments came after he had learned that the Declaration of War<BR>
>> had not been delviered in time.<BR>
><BR>
>Yamamoto opposed war with America.  He studied in the US and had a very good<BR>
>idea of the industrial capacity of the US (a key factor in modern war).<BR>
>When the time came, despite his personal misgivings, he did his duty.<BR>
<BR>
True, but he understood Americans well enough to understand that the<BR>
failure to deliver the declaration in time would be used by the American<BR>
government to incite the American population into a fury.<BR>
<BR>
Had the decalaration been delivered on-time, it's possible that the anger<BR>
would have been directed at the Navy for not being ready.  But "the sneaky<BR>
Japs" hit us while we were at peace.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:06:37 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Greyhawk<BR>
<BR>
A demonstration/premier playing of the new Living Greyhawk campaign will be <BR>
conducted at ThunderCon in Kansas City, June 9-12. <BR>
<BR>
Additional information can be found at:<BR>
http://hometown.aol.com/rpgkc<BR>
in the ThunderCon Preregistration section.<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:17:21 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > Haven't the Knights Templar (who are Christians) been<BR>
> > running Israel's military and especially its elite forces<BR>
> > since at least 1948?<BR>
><BR>
> The Knights Templar are not Christians they are satanic devil<BR>
> worshipers as was established by a French court. [g, d, r]<BR>
<BR>
Well, that makes an even stronger case for.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I have always viewed Satanists as just another christian sect.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:10:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK it means As far as I know<BR>
<BR>
>>> "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> 05/25/00 09:38AM >>><BR>
While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:13:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Matt Stevens" <mfs10@columbia.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
I think it means "hand to hand," as in punching, kicking, stomping<BR>
on the testicles (ouch!) etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:10:17 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: New Member Quiz<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Now to the important content.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller universe.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  - --<BR>
>  Evyn...<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Don't forget Aslan fems in comfortable shoes on near-C rocks armed with jump <BR>
torpedos.<BR>
(g,d,r)<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
> At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> >what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
If it's a combat reference, probably Hand to Hand.  Otherwise no idea.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:14:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know if there's a net acronym of HTH but in  RPGs  HTH  =<BR>
"hand-to-hand" ... as in hand-to-hand combat.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:21:50 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Military Mistakes (was Re: The Will to Win...)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, the Navy had trouble getting thru to Pearl on the radio so<BR>
>  they sent the warning via Western Union, and it wasn't marked urgent.<BR>
>  It was delivered to the base commander hours *after* the attack.<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Reminds me of the report during the Grenada deal back in the '80s where an <BR>
infantry commander had to call in an airstrike to support his position by <BR>
calling his military base back in the US using AT&T and a credit card.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What other examples of "field expedient" communications might an <BR>
Imperial military unit have to use in a tight situation?<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:23:23 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> >what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
Hand-To-Hand, as in HTH Combat.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:32:11 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New Member Quiz<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Evyn MacDude writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > Now to the important content.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller universe.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  - --<BR>
> >  Evyn...<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Don't forget Aslan fems in comfortable shoes on near-C rocks armed with jump<BR>
> torpedos.<BR>
> (g,d,r)<BR>
<BR>
Shhhhh..... I was saving those for the Advanced Traveller Placement Test.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin<BR>
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall<BR>
Bunches of roses all over my coffin<BR>
Roses to deaden the clods as they fall<BR>
 Laredo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:25:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2491<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:26:09 -0400<BR>
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Client States<BR>
><BR>
> > The second ObTrav: can a member world leave the<BR>
> Imperium? The Warrant seems<BR>
> > silent on this...my guess is no, but that might<BR>
> not stop people from trying.<BR>
> <BR>
> It isn't really silent.  The Warrant gives the<BR>
> Imperium the sole power<BR>
> to change the relationship with a member world.  So<BR>
> member worlds<BR>
> have no legal authority to change the relationship. <BR>
> "The Revolution<BR>
> Will Not Be Televised."<BR>
<BR>
Ah! This is interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Can you _imagine_ the flamewars the TML in your<BR>
average potential-Client State must have? People would<BR>
argue about whether or not the little kingdom should<BR>
become a client state, philosophical types would argue<BR>
which side's ideology was closest to the Client State<BR>
wannabe's, more practical people would argue over<BR>
which side wound _win_...<BR>
<BR>
And of course if you came out as being against<BR>
becoming the client of Stellar Empire X, and your<BR>
little kingdom becomes part of Stellar Empire X, then<BR>
if Stellar Empire X was fairly oppressive the<BR>
authorities might be interested in you... in fact, if<BR>
you hate Empire X that much you might decide that the<BR>
authorities would be looking for you anyhow and go<BR>
into hiding... you'd get nutters starting<BR>
pro-independence militias and pro-Client Statehood<BR>
militias (see East Timor and Northern Ireland)... oh,<BR>
the fun of being a Client State.<BR>
<BR>
Arthur<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:25:44 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
At 01:13 PM 05/25/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> > AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
><BR>
>I think it means "hand to hand," as in punching, kicking, stomping<BR>
>on the testicles (ouch!) etc.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Or...<BR>
<BR>
Hope This Helps<BR>
<BR>
HTH<BR>
<BR>
Kurt<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:39:00 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
on 5/25/00 10:01 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>> While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
>> what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
Hand-to-hand? as in HTH combat?  Just guessing.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:41:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Newbie Quiz<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:18:21 -0700<BR>
> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
> Subject: New Member quiz.<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
<BR>
> Choose a side of these arguments.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Are, or are not the Vilani cannibals?<BR>
<BR>
Only in that all humans have cannibal ancestors.<BR>
(Note: Pseudo-anthropology.)<BR>
<BR>
> 2. Detail in your best effort your favorite Recipe<BR>
> for Barbecued K'Kree.<BR>
<BR>
First you stuff your K'Kree with sausages... while the<BR>
K'Kree's still alive.<BR>
<BR>
> 3. The plausibility of Piracy in the Traveller<BR>
> universe.<BR>
<BR>
Becoming a pirate is a stupid idea, but then there's<BR>
lots of stupid people about. A certain percentage of<BR>
these people become pirates. They're kinda like the<BR>
orcs of space...<BR>
<BR>
Though I won't be using the "random pirate encounter<BR>
rules"...<BR>
<BR>
Now...<BR>
<BR>
4. What's a Feudal Technocracy?<BR>
<BR>
Like Paranoia, only you get rid of the Computer and<BR>
just have the Service Groups running things.<BR>
<BR>
5. Are jump torpedoes possible?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the one in Leviathan's the only one in<BR>
existance. It was the result of a tippy-top secret<BR>
project by the Leviathan's owners which was so<BR>
outrageously expensive that they decided that making<BR>
more jump torps was a dumb idea, but they'd spent too<BR>
much to junk the one they had. It also self-destructs<BR>
after the adventure or after it's used (whichever<BR>
comes first) so nobody can steal the corp's secret<BR>
technology - not that anyone would want to, jump torps<BR>
being expensive, unreliable, and they offend the<BR>
"canon sense" every Traveller character has.<BR>
<BR>
6. Can you accelerate a big rock to .999999c, jump it<BR>
in close to a planet, and thus destroy the planet?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but the Imperium will kill you if you do it,<BR>
there's no good reason to do it (unless you're nuts,<BR>
in which case how did you think up the plan in the<BR>
first place?), such schemes often get ruined by<BR>
interfering PCs and it interferes with people's "canon<BR>
sense".<BR>
<BR>
(The "canon sense" was implanted by the Ancients in<BR>
all sentient life forms. It has no purpose other than<BR>
to discourage research into jump torps and near-c<BR>
rocks.)<BR>
<BR>
Arthur Boff, newbie.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:56:34 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
Hope This Helps, usually.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
> > At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> > >While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> > >what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
> <BR>
> If it's a combat reference, probably Hand to Hand.  Otherwise no idea.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:59:24 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Mercenaries IRL<BR>
<BR>
Veskrashen writes:<BR>
>I ran across this site via another list I'm on. It's a website for a<BR>
>real-world "Private Military Company". Interesting, and a good idea of<BR>
>how they might be set up in the abscence of any central authority.<BR>
>www.sandline.com<BR>
<BR>
	Isn't this one of the outfits involved in Sierre Leone?  I<BR>
	recently heard of discussion on the practicality of using merc<BR>
	troops in 'peace-making' operations for the UN.  It is an<BR>
	interesting idea, though there are some definite concerns.<BR>
	Has anyone employed mercs in Traveller as peace-makers or<BR>
	peace-keepers?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:02:39 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: > Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
>  "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
> <BR>
> I apologize beforehand for contributing to this thread, but I<BR>
> absolutely cannot let this pass by without comment. :-(<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.<BR>
 <BR>
> Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> <BR>
> > Look, boy (as you do not like to be called son, & you sure as hell<BR>
> > are not a man), the first thing you have to learn is that no one,<BR>
> > but no one calls anyone on this ML a moron, but me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Wrong. No one calls anyone on this ML a moron. Period.<BR>
> <BR>
> >     As for the sales of Mein Kampf & the Communist Manifesto, I have<BR>
> >     read<BR>
> > both, & I tend to think that Mein Kampf is the work of a sick &<BR>
> > twisted mind, much like your mind is sick & twisted.<BR>
> <BR>
> Do not, I repeat *do not* compare anyone with A. Hitler. That is<BR>
> probably one of the most offensive comments possible.<BR>
<BR>
Is there any possible way to kick Legate Legion off of this ML?  <BR>
While he does sometimes have useful things to contribute, this <BR>
crap combined with the "GURPS fans should be killed" thread of a <BR>
few months ago have really gone *far* beyond the bounds of <BR>
reasonable discourse.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:06:33 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: The Will to Win<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If it's the same story I'm thinking of, I believe it's an Asimov<BR>
> story.  It's written from the point of view of astronauts in an<BR>
> orbiting weapons platform who have the option of counterattcking<BR>
> with nuclear missiles but their president orders them not to,<BR>
> on the premise that humanity might not survive if they did and<BR>
> an attack wouldn't save their homeland.  It turns out in the end<BR>
> that the astronauts are Soviet cosmonauts and the president is<BR>
> the President of the Soviet Union.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting, I remember the story well enough to know that this is <BR>
*not* the story I'm thinking of (the folks with the missiles were on <BR>
Earth).  Seems like an idea which has been written more than once.<BR>
Thanks for the info.<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:05:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Save yourselves. OT:<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > The Knights Templar are not Christians they are satanic devil<BR>
> > worshipers as was established by a French court. [g, d, r]<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, that makes an even stronger case for.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, I have always viewed Satanists as just another christian sect.<BR>
> <BR>
They could also be Jewish.  You have to believe in Satan to worship him,<BR>
so Satanic devil worshippers would have to be either Christian or Jewish.<BR>
People of other religions may worship other devils, but cannot worship<BR>
Satan.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:06:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: acronyms<BR>
<BR>
I thought it stood for Hoo the Heck.  Like Hoo the Heck made up all these acronyms!<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
>>> Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> 05/25/00 10:23AM >>><BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:38 PM 5/25/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >While we're on the subject: the one that's always stumped  me  is<BR>
> >what the hell does "AFAIK" stand for?<BR>
> <BR>
> AFAIK, it means "As Far As I Know"  Now I have one: HTH?<BR>
<BR>
Hand-To-Hand, as in HTH Combat.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sweden as world power <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>As every Avalon Hill fanatic knows, Diplomacy is the key <BR>
>to victory :-)<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  Eight-player Diplomacy has a very different<BR>
dynamic from the usual game, too.  (Powers are England,<BR>
France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Russia, Turkey, and<BR>
Sweden, with Swedish supply centers being Norway, Sweden,<BR>
and Denmark.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2499<BR>
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